Neo Finance 'N7' Outperforming, Apollo x Morpho, Frax Joins The Show, Bullet Mainnet & Gmoney Calls

Transcript

[music] [music] H the [music] back the right now. I'm above the [music] >> [music]

>> How the [ __ ] [music] JP Morgan, Black Rock, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. [music] It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. [music] He said it. He finally said it. So he's bullish. I'm bullish. We're [music] boys.

[music] >> [music] [music] >> H the B [music] [music] I'm the B. [music] [music]

>> [music] >> Hop up the back. [music] [music] How the [ __ ] [music] [music] is headed to the top? If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. We're on fourth floor today. We're going to be on floor one and then we're headed straight to the moon, boys.

[applause] >> Yo yo yo. Happy President's Day, Rob. >> Happy President's Day to all the presidents out there. >> Yeah, the president this time around doesn't really get much global support, so we're going to have to celebrate for him. Happy President's Day, Mr. Trump. >> No presidents. >> They really don't like Americans out there globally now because of Trump. Not great. Not great. >> Oh, yeah. >> Not great for the boys. >> Um, yeah, he's uh he's in a tough spot here, but not a politics show, so >> How's your weekend, man?

>> Deep into that. It was pretty good. >> Um, finally some warmer weather down here in Florida. Florida was supposed to be warm. Finally get gets back into the 70s. >> Was that was nice. Got outside, touched some grass, did a lot of reading. Um, so that was pretty chill as well. And just uh yeah, overall had a good weekend. What about you? [snorts] >> Nice, man. I skied a bunch and I spent yesterday on Open Claw. I got my Chef Clanker robot here. I probably got to figure out how to get this guy to be recording my voice. I'm going to text him right now and say I'm on stream. How do I get you to record my audio?

See what he says. Basically, I've just been cooking on this. Um I don't know. I got it. I got him his own Gmail account. He's connected to my calendar, can view my calendar. He's editing Google Docs. I got him reminding me of stuff. He's sending me a a daily news uh briefing and calendar update. Um so I have a flight to Denver tonight at 6:44 p.m. it looks like. Um yeah, man. just spent a good bit of time on uh on on Cloudbot yesterday. So, it was pretty fun.

>> And uh one of the first things you did was give it like a Telegram handle so you could communicate with it via Telegram. You didn't have to bother with the command line interface. >> Yeah. But then you end up just wasting a bunch of open AI or um anthropic credits. So, I had to buy more credits. It doesn't just use the chat credits. It uses the API console. >> Yeah. So yeah, we'll uh maybe I gotta set up granola, I think. Um yeah. >> Yeah, granola and uh Kimchi. I think Kim or Kimmy is uh an open source model. And so you can rather than sending your requests to Claude, you can send them to

Kimmy and save >> like an order of magnitude on tokens. >> Yeah. Yeah. I can use Granola for this. Um, and I've got Yeah, this thing has its own Google Drive, its own email, its own Telegram. It's pretty cool. So, clankers are coming for sure. We got a sick lineup today. Uh, we got actually have G Money on as the last person. He was doing a lot in um he was doing a lot in this kind of like open claw AI stuff, so I wanted to get him on. He he willingly uh wanted to come on and join. So, should should be fun. Bullet mainet uh as well. and our friend Sean from Fracks on Stabled Up. So, that's our lineup today, guys. It's a Monday. It's

a I think it's a day off in um in in the States, but but we're not taking the day off. So, we're here. We're live. Uh yeah, man. And so, let's get into it. We've got some things to cover, things that happened over the weekend uh and the end of last week. And we've got a rumor mill which has been cooking. And so we're gonna get into that as well. >> Very uh very speculative news section here today. >> Let's get into it. First up, we've got uh Grayscale converting their uh trust into an ETF.

>> And so obviously this is on the heels of the A announcement last week. >> Uh the A will win proposal. um as well as uh Stani's latest article describing his vision for A in the coming 25 years uh on track to capture 30 to50 trillion dollars by 2050 >> on the heels of the energy abundance movement transformation. He thinks a can be a financeier of energy abundance. I I saw somebody say that you know it's bare market when protocols are positioning as Mesopotamia in their marketing. Um Paul Baron is in the chat says Robin Hood

chain AI agent season will probably be epic. AI agents are still too nerdy of a topic. Um definitely could could happen would be interesting for sure. Um Robin Hood chain is on test net as you guys saw from last week. But yeah, I mean, Rob, this is uh this news came directly after the proposal. So, I could not tell if it was preempted or if it was part of kind of the broader push from a team. Uh but yeah, man. I mean, look, we're this probably is going to go through. Uh we're going to see more of these ETFs pass. I expect Aves to go through. Um I don't really think it changes much on the material demand side. Like, I mean, gives you some institutional access for sure. Uh I think that's important. Um,

but as we've seen with other ETFs so far in this bare market, doesn't really matter if you have an ETF or not, uh, the market has not been that friendly. So um yeah >> and the the part I'll push back on is, uh, is the fact that Black Rockck's buying unis swap, we're going to get into Apollo buying, uh, Morpho. Yeah. And I think with A's track record and and their current positioning, they're another prime target for acquisition by major asset managers and financial institutions. Yeah, they're going to be listed under ticker GAV, two 2.5% fee, and they'll use Coinbase as the custody as the custodian. Um, this is the second firm after Bitwise to seek US regulatory clarity for the uh AV ETF and Gayscale

is going to actually hold a tokens directly. Um, so yeah, A currently has a 21 shares ETP on NASDAQ, Stockholm, and Global X uh product in Germany. So, hope this goes through for them. I anticipate it will. And um yeah, it's this is a basic headline these days, but it's pretty incredible how far we've came that that we just are getting ETFs uh for crypto assets now. So, all right, let's move on here from the lovely uh A ETF. A founder pitches 50 trillion abundant asset boom to drive DeFi.

Um, solar energy could represent 15 to trill $30 trillion of tokenized assets enabling new lending and investment opportunities. Projects could tokenize assets like a hund00 million solar installations. Stani claims to borrow against them creating scalable lowrisisk yield for investors. This kind of comes into our looping thoughts with regards to uh how uh arted way looping is going to happen and yeah could extend past solar into batteries, robotics, vertical farming, semiconductors and even 3D printing technologies. This was part of the show that we had with Stonnie. Uh if you guys haven't seen that uh on YouTube, it is on YouTube. Um it is our latest video. Check it out. talks about

his abundance thesis a bit and he also just wrote a post on it. Um and yeah guys, I mean I think this is an ambitious goal. Uh could work out. Uh seems currently seems far-fetched. Uh but you know, we shall see how how the abundance the f the powering the abundance trend happens. But what I don't think is far-fetched is the idea of tokenizing uh all these different types of assets and bringing them on chain and getting different types of yield opportunities and borrowing opportunities against certain tokenized assets that don't exist today. And I do believe a would be the place for that.

So um yeah, it is definitely a a feasible idea in its current form seems farfetched. Putting aside the moon math of 30 to50 trillion dollars of abundance assets, this is the trend that we believe is going to continue. I spent some time on a horizon over the weekend looking at, you know, what are some of these funds that are leading in terms of collateralization. A horizon being the RWA platform where, you know, you can you can lend uh assets like Superstate uh you can end tokeniz lend to tokenized treasury funds. Um, I'm actually gonna pull it up now so I can uh kind of share with you guys what what I found which was that a lot of these things um

actually all of the assets that you can collateralize are not earning any interest. >> The primary benefit of a horizon is to generate liquidity uh off of these assets. meaning that you know superstate uh tokenized treasury fund uh might be you know earning you four five six seven percent uh you're going to continue to recoup that because you own that fund you own that asset and it is still positioned uh in a you're not owning and there's no one borrowing these things these these things are basically securities uh they're regulated as such and so uh there's no one that's going to short these securities right but you can continue to earn earn the interest

provided to you in these products as you collateralize them and borrow against them. And so what what you end up having is you have you know $50 million of superstates uh crypto credit fund on a horizon and then you have stable coins uh upwards of $200 million of Ripple USD uh 80 million of which is being borrowed and this is what we're seeing as the unlock right and so if I own you know 100 million of superstate put it into a then I can borrow 80 million I can go use that to buy more superstate credit fund lever up on this product that's generating me four, five, six, seven percent. I'm calling this institutional yield farming. I think that's an

appropriate term for it. Uh we've seen how these things go in DeFi. Are they are we going to follow the same path? Uh I hope not. We don't want this to end in disaster, but ultimately the extension of credit uh onchain is continuing to drive more adoption into these products. Kyle Sony had that tweet about it saying that institutional looping is going to be huge. I think he's right. I think he's on the right train of thought. I think that is the main use case. Um and so I think that these lending markets, these overcodized lending markets like Horizon, Morpho's Vault and Morpho as well and a couple others, uh yeah, clearly Apollo is going to be using Morpho. Clearly in institutions are going to want to be uh looping RWAS to

get more yield and to get uh basically more Yeah. to get more credit against them. So, um that is that is the a abundance thesis. Let's keep it rolling here. Black Rockck Robin Hood lead Wall Street's DeFi breakthrough. Uh pretty crazy week last week, guys. If you were paying attention to the all the DeFi happenings, um major Wall Street firms have advanced DeFi integration with multiple tokenization initiatives. So, Black Rockck launches build token on Munis swap making its first direct defy trading integration with treasurybacked assets. Pretty big. Um, this was obviously we saw the pump and the

retrace on unis swap. The market was kind of excited about it but not nearly as excited about the a news or the morpho news as both of those tokens have held up quite a bit better. Those are part of our N7 index guys. If you've been watching my Twitter, I've been talking about the N7 outperformance led mostly by hype. Sky, Morpho, and now a really having a strong bounce off the lows as well. We do not have unis swap in our N7 index. Um, just not just not part of what we're considering to be this next phase. I think that they can still do well in a bull market, but not something that that we're like personally trying to allocate to at the current moment. Uh, I mean, given it's a bare market, this outperformance thesis

is tough to it. It's it's tough. uh it's it maybe it's even easier to actually have in the bare market. Um but you know, we'll see. We'll see kind of where that ends up. Also, enabled tokenized stocks for DeFi platforms. Um so allowing basically what we're talking about here uh just now with a horizon basically allowing the tokenized stocks to be used in lending markets, vaults, structured products. Again guys, the big unlock for tokenization is is not just tokenizing assets. tokenizing these assets and using them in DeFi. Um, so yeah, pretty big week last week for NEO finance, for tokenization as a whole.

>> Oh yeah, look, I I uh put a tweet out there. Tokenization is not the endgame, it's the beginning, which I think speaks to how this progression is going to play out. First, we have the assets represented on chain. It's, you know, you have a thing on chain in a void. there's nothing to do with it, right? Yeah. What is it? What is it really giving you? >> Once you give some utility to these tokenized products, you're able to lend against them. You're able to extend credit. You're able to loop, leverage, deposit, all of these things, then it gets really interesting. And I think because we've seen DeFi play out over multiple cycles, we're in a very unique position to see how this is applied to to legacy financial uh instruments.

meaning that a lot of this I think is going to follow a very similar playbook. It's just going to happen to higher quality assets. >> Um and so we're going to see you know what what what were the three components >> back in DeFi summer. Um if I remember correctly it was like every chain needs a DEX, every chain needs a lending market, every chain needs a yield aggregator. >> I think we're going to see a lot of that those same principles play out at the institutional scale. And so now you see Black Rockck going into Uniswap. All right. And then you see Apollo going into Morpho. And then you have the entire vault complex which is essentially yield aggregation. And so I think we're seeing a lot of these same principles play out. They're happening

at scale. And I think it would be worthwhile to kind of go back and think to yourself, what were the best performers in DeFi summer and try to reposition in the more modern institutional DeFi era for those assets and then position yourself for for upside accordingly. >> Um, >> so like every chain needs those. Every institution is going to need a DEX to have their products traded on. every institution is going to need a lending market to be able to facilitate the lending of their of their assets and the borrowing and maybe every institution is going to need a vault provider or a or some sort of like framework for that.

>> Yes. And but but here's the difference. It's not chain centric. I think it's asset centric this time. >> So you're right. Absolutely. Before every chain needed each of each of those components, but now if you look at Black Rockck and you look at Bidd, it's that is their vector. that is their portal to the onchain universe. And so they're looking at everything through the lens of Bidd, right? >> Bidd needs uh a decentralized exchange. Bidd needs a lending market where people can facilitate, you know, borrowing. Bidd needs a yield aggregator where you can deposit it as collateral and then source some yield aggregation around it.

So yeah, I I think we're going to see a lot of these same things play out. Um, and ultimately I think there's there's probably an argument here uh to build out the N7 to like an N20 or an N30 or something like that because more and more teams are going to reposition themselves around this thesis. I think the seven that we chose were just steadfast. They've been building towards it since the beginning. We believe that they're going to be the outperformers, but there's going to be multip like unis swap, right? Uh there's going to be multiple people that are going to be benefactors of this institutional adoption.

>> Yep. Yep. Agreed. Agreed. Bidd is an awesome awesome asset name by the way for uh Black Rock and Securitize. All right guys, let's move on. Uh from the institutional neo finance realm. Um we have a Sam Alman tweet, one of the rare that we cover here in the AI world. Uh Peter Steinberger is joining OpenAI to drive the next generation of personal agents. Uh Open Claw will live in a foundation as an open source project that OpenAI will continue to support. The future is going to be extremely multi-agent and it's important to us to use to us to support open sources as part of that.

Yeah. >> Best comment I saw on this was that open claw becomes closed claw. >> Yeah. From autism capital or something. >> Yeah. because obviously OpenAI is closed source source you know not they're the forprofit company that you know they said they wouldn't become >> um >> I thought it was funny that that this and this this announcement came out so I set up Open Claw on Saturday barely even set it up then yesterday I really really actually got into the weeds and set it up and got it live and now I'm just going to keep using it on all on my Mac Mini that I use for streaming and for the show and whatnot.

Um, I I thought it was funny that that that this announcement came out as I was setting up my open call. Like I'm like the early majority, not like the not like the pioneer, but like the early majority and then boom, this guy gets acquired. I think it's going to help the product for sure. They're shipping such fast updates to the product every day. Apparently Peter's been working like 18 hours a day or something crazy. Um, but yeah, I mean kind of a fumble for Claude. All of this stuff is in um claude uh you know you use claude for I'm using anthropics model for openclaw but you can use any model for the uh like for your you can use any model on >> that's why I'm telling you to to switch

to Kimmy and then you'll end up it it's just as good as Claude and you end up saving on all those tokens. >> Really? >> Yeah. I I heard the all I can't take credit for this. I heard the all-in guys talking about it. Jason Calacanis was setting up his Clawbot instances for his uh for his company. Uh and they actually give a lot of he gives a like a lot of guidance as to how he's setting it up given he's got a media podcast conglomerate of sorts. >> Um it's particularly useful for you know here at the rollup. So um and then he also talks about using Kimmy. They go back and forth about it.

>> Yeah, I've um yeah I I've kind I've got mine slowly but surely getting dialed in. Right now, I'm just kind of using it as like a as like a I don't know. Claude was telling me to use it as a chief of staff. I thought that was kind of interesting. But I'm just like just funneling so many different ideas and thoughts into it, etc. But yeah, I guess you could just plug it into a cheaper model. Look, I've got it running on Sonnet right now to save tokens on Claude, but you're saying, Kimmy, you can just uh get way cheaper rates than using Claude basically. And then and then you can instruct it to go use Claude when it's a very high value or high functioning task. Yeah. And it'll switch from the open source model that it uses for the grunt of its work over

to a better >> theoretically better right. Marginally so better model when it when you know it's time to do a high ROI task. >> Yep. Yep. Very cool. Very cool. Well, congrats to Peter and to OpenAI. This is definitely the best uh like kind of AI implementation that we've seen so far. Um I don't really think it's that good. I think it's pretty much the same as Cloud Code. It does have this heartbeat thing that's pretty cool where it like updates itself every two three hours. It like checks for anything that it needs to do. Um I've also not had it running overnight yet. So, uh, maybe tonight I'll try to give it a bunch of tasks and and see if I can wake up in the morning to some sort of completion. But yeah,

it's pretty cool. Um, pretty cool for sure. All right, let's move on of Sam. Again, congrats to Peter and the and the team. >> Pretty pretty cool to see how uh, you know, Claude was just running away with the AI race and then and then OpenAI went went and hired >> Yeah, because apparently they were Anthropic was sending them legal uh, lawyer letters and legal papers. and naming and all that. >> Exactly. That was why it went from clawedbot to openclaw. Uh because it was spelled like that and it was molt book that didn't really catch on. Ultimately they landed on clawbot or openclaw. But yeah, it started off um you know primarily using and running on claude and some some branding. It was just a fumble. I mean claude was doing so well.

Uh Open AI was uh you know running commercials and advertisements in their responses. They were losing bad. >> I know. And then Claude fumbled and let o and open AI just struck the opportunity. So >> yeah, it's pretty crazy. >> All right, so Jason Choy, Tangent co-founder, urges grads to optimize for rapid wealth creation, not traditional careers. Um, this is like the whole get, you know, gamble your way out of the permanent underclass. Recommends high-risk crypto or stock trading or bootstrapping AI apps for fast aqua hires. He dismisses consulting and IB paths as they will become obsolete in the face of AI disruption.

Frames this decision around a five-year AI AGI timeline that could perma nuke jobs. Um this definitely aligns with aggressive AGI forecast from Sam Alman in the near term. Daario Amode as well 2026 to 2030 others. I mean, people in the comments were crit were questioning and criticizing the survivability post AGI capital access feasibility for non- elite grads. Like, this guy just makes it seem easy to just go and start hyper gambling from like 1K to mill. Um, yeah, I mean, there's this there's this big AI urgency narrative, real world uh actual constraints to the reality of this, like the difficulty that it really is to make

this work. Um, yeah. I mean, that's this is an interesting tweet and I don't know. I think it just kind of I I feel validated in the decision to drop out. I [laughter] feel um I feel like I feel like this narrative is way too overused though. Like the whole world's coming to an end because of AI and uh you need to get rich quick. I I don't really think it's the right way to think about it. Um but here we are. >> Yeah, there's a few things I disagree with in this in this tweet. Uh first is that um there's going to be like this permanent overclass and permanent

underclass once AGI hits. Um there's going to be people people that are using it. Uh there's going to be people that aren't using it. There's going to be a middle class. Even if that middle class does start to decay uh and and and the wealth inequality gap does diverge, it there's still it's still going to the middle class is still going to exist in some way, shape, or form. Obviously, you want to try to rise to the top. Uh and so, you know, harnessing AI to do that is going to be especially useful. Um I I think hyper gambling is just that. It's just gambling. It's just as easy to lose the house uh as it is to it's actually much easier to lose the house than to to win it all. Uh so I

think that is a very unlikely path to success. More likely is you know we're going to see single team entrepreneurs. We're going to see more companies like Hyperlid that are doing extremely extremely well um that have not that many employees. But it takes pretty specific domain expertise in order to apply AI well enough to gain market share in a particular industry to the extent that you can win a segment of the market. Um, everyone's got access to these tools now. You're going to need to do some pretty specific research into an area that you're hyperinterested in in order to amass enough expertise in that area uh to do well. The other the other

thing that I would I guess add to this tweet uh if I'm a fresh grad and even if you accept the premise about you know this perma nuking the job market which it you know is is a debate in and of itself is I think one of the more lucrative things that you can do is you can start to apply this software to the to the world of atoms like robots. I don't know if you saw this this video from China about like their dancing robots. The the difference between 2025 and 2026 was insane. Like 2025 they still moved like a robot, right? Like >> dude, >> yeah.

>> 2026 they're dancing. They've got they're nimble. They're agile. They they're light on their feet. It's incredible. I think starting to build for more of the industry using robotics and more like machinery is going to and and there was another video that I think applies to the same thesis. They 3D printed an entire boat >> and so they've got one one robot in this factory and then a giant printer like and it just spits out this boat. It's >> like a like a lifeiz boat.

>> A life-siz boat. Yeah. And it's just this horizontal machine in this giant warehouse and it's just spitting [snorts] out a boat. [laughter] It's >> one one piece of like steel or metal and and it just spits it out. It's an incredible thing to see. I'm sure you're going to see the video. I'm sure. And so applying software, like getting more involved into the machinery of these things and then applying AI to these worlds, like remember when AI first came out, the thing was like be a welder or be a plumber.

>> I don't think that's the play. I think it's like use this software and AI to develop the the algorithms or the machines that 3D printers are going to use or robots are going to use, like build the build the philosophy for the robot is what I'm saying. Like it's going to be a software brain and a hardware body, but like the software still need to get it's going to need to be trained and optimized and programmed for certain robotic tasks. I think that is where there's a big gap in the market and if I'm a fresh grad, that's where I'm spending my time >> in Chinese warehouses doing 3D printing.

Gotta love it. All right, guys. We're going to take a quick standby, quick commercial break. We're going to get uh stabled up episode number 21 with Sean Kelly, the VP of comms at Fracks. We'll be right right back in just about 30 seconds. Um let's get this show on the road. If if you're here watching on YouTube, guys, hit the like, hit the subscribe. We're live every day. We have ETH Denver this week. Uh we got two more shows this week rolling into Nearcon next week in SF for more AI conversations and then the big upgrade in March. So guys, see you guys in just a second.

>> [music] >> Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion dollars transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now. [music] >> Welcome back to another episode of

Stabled Up, our premier weekly show covering the ins and outs of digital dollars, stable coins, and [music] the future of decentralized finance. Show is made possible by FRA and FRA is powering the financial engine of the internet powering FRXUSD and genius compliant stable coins. This is the stable coin super cycle made possible by FRA. Now enjoy stabled up our weekly stable coin show. Alrighty, Sean, what's going on, man?

Welcome back to Stable Up, episode number 21, our weekly premier stable coin show brought to you by our friends at FRA with their F FRXUSD product, Fra Chain, and more. Today, we're talking with Sean Kelly, VP of partnerships and comms at FRAX about FRXUSD, yield forwarding, stable coins. We've been really bowled up on RWA looping as of recently as well. uh and just generally what we've seen in the DeFi market with Black Rockck and Uniswap Morpho and Apollo A's new proposal and just generally how this space is evolving. So Sean, good to have you on, man.

>> Hey, happy to be here. >> Absolutely. Well, would love a bit of an update from Fracks. I mean, uh I'm sure we we'll get into all of the things as far as how we're seeing some of the DeFi elements unfold. I I don't know if you caught maybe uh more in the beginning part of the stream. We were talking about uh institutional yield farming which is it that's what it feels like what's happening as these things are tokenized. Um you know the next unlock is incorporating them into some of the lending products lending market so that you can gain liquidity either use that buy another tokenized treasury put in another fund use it somewhere else. Um that seems like it's something that's starting to pick up steam now. Uh and before before we get into some of these

institutional, you know, yield use cases, yeah, just would love an update on what's happening at Fracks, you know, over the last few weeks. I think we had Sam on earlier this year, but you guys are always cooking. Uh so would love I'd love an update. >> Definitely. Yeah. So 2025 was really a foundational year for us in terms of building the infrastructure needed in order to support FRAUSD growth. And then this year is when we're really going to start delivering on that growth. Um it's both from a DeFi side as well as a traditional finance side. So on the DeFi side of things, we have a peger strategy going where we pair with DeFi stable coins. And over a dozen protocols have chosen to pair their core stable coin with FRAUSD. And the reason they do that

is they trust FRAUSD to be as secure as USDC or USDT, but the underlying yield goes into incentivizing liquidity. So it creates a more sustainable D5 ecosystem. Um and that strategy expands beyond just peg keepers. It also goes into D5 protocols as a whole. Uh we're talking with a lot of early stage DeFi protocols who want to build on top of FRAUSD as a core asset. Um but then also established D5 protocols like A uh is being FRAUSD is being proposed uh to be integrated into A and we're taking the underlying yield from there and using it to um make sure that people who are holding for example a FRAUSD are getting at least the risk-free rate um and also

incentivizing esco holdings. So it's just a more sustainable DeFi ecosystem more productive more capital efficient and that's what DeFi is always looking for. Um and then on the traditional finance side because we have these relationships with Black Rockck and Wisdom Tree and Superstate, we have connections to all these traditional finance institutions. Um so we're trusted in that respect and people uh trust our brand over five years of security in order to build on top of and so more recently we announced ATW which is a New York City investment bank. They put 50 million into FRAUSD to power some of their uh convertible payments. they're behind a lot of the digital asset treasury companies. Um, but we're also cooking up some pretty

large partnerships around stable coins and stable coin real world use cases and payments. As you've seen, all these traditional financial institutions are coming on chain. Uh, and they're looking for trusted partners to do it with. Uh, so they're not going to go with some new stable coin in order to do that. They're going to go with a name like FRA. >> Yeah. and and we've been talking to quite a few uh providers of vaults and kind of this idea of tokenized assets into vaults and inst institutions wanting to kind of get this oneizefits-all strategy into vaults that you know they want a set of smart contract parameters that allows them to get really good yields better than what what they can get in traditional you know in traditional finance and and you know then they want to do it onchain

with you know trusted vault providers, risk curators and you know trusted assets etc. What's the latest on vaults that you're seeing from your side? You know, what's where's the interest at? What are the types of vaults that are interesting? What are you guys focused on? Give us a quick update on the vaults landscape as well. I think this has been pretty promising as of late. >> Yeah. Um, certainly there's a lot of institutional capital looking for onchain vaults as well as yields. Uh we have our own vault product SRAXUSV that we um put into blue chip DeFi products.

Um but I think you're going to continue to see new projects built around taking some sort of off-chain uh capital system and then bringing it onchain for yields. Um I think that stuff is super interesting. It's not uh something we're as focused on. We're we're very focused around FRAUSD as money and in the payment system and broadening adoption of that both in DeFi and Tradi. Um on vaults we're we're more just observing that space and like but specifically real world asset vaults is something that we're uniquely positioned to deliver on in terms of um having the relationships with like uh securitize.

So, you know, the announcement that was just made about Bidd on Uniswap, we're actually one of the, you know, registered holders of Bidd. We're actually one of the top holders and we keep our Bidd on chain. Uh, and that's backing FRAUSD, but we're we also have the relationships with Wisdom Tree and Superstate. So, we actually basically have a a reserve backing of FRAUSD made up of multiple RWA issuers, which is pretty unique. And so when you think about needing to source liquidity for a bidd candidate for that because we have it on chain in size and we're able to uh move in between uh BL versus WTGXX or USB or FRAUSD. Um so there's some interesting

use cases there as well. And and as we see the development of more of these RWA focused vaults, right, we're we're you know, you guys have a lot of BL, you guys are, you know, able to collateralize FRA USD with the stable coins that are uh excuse me, with the treasury, the tokenized treasury funds that are underneath it. Um and and you maintain genius compliance that way. Um, as you guys are thinking about your own reserve management strategy, h how do you think you will start to access some of these opportunities that are coming up like you know whether it means kind of getting more yield passing more of that yield back to end users of FRAUSD.

Do you see a lot more of these vaults opening up where you can deposit things like Bidd or other, you know, tokenized treasury products? Will that increase the yield that you guys at Frack are generating on your reserves in turn increasing the yield on FRAUSD or or how should we think about you know the way these institutional products are deployed on chain? >> Yeah, I think um the yield underlying FRAUSD is kind of capped at the risk-free rate because we back it with tokenized treasuries. I think where you would look to have enhanced yield opportunities would be on uh SFRAXUSD which is our our stake vault version. Um and because of our relationships with

these real world asset providers, we you know may have some unique opportunities to access some of these products and for the underlying yield to our SFRAUSD holders. But for FRAUSD itself, it's really just the risk-free rate. Um, but that's much better than most stable coins today that aren't passing anything on and they're um keeping that revenue for themselves. >> I I mean I think what Rob's trying to get at here more so um Sean is this idea of RWA looping and why this is so big. So Kamani put out a tweet saying, you know, like RWA looping is going to be huge or, you know, that's like the main use case for RWAs. We just can keep kind of thinking about this thesis around how

these institutional allocators are going to want to come on chain with something like like um um Black Rockck's Bidd and they'll want to you know put that into an A or into a Morpho borrow against that you know buy more Bidd with that redeposit it loop it and hope hope that there's a arbitrage of rates possible there use something like Pendle use a different lending market so like this this like looping credit creation thesis. We talked to Rune last week about it from Sky. He's he's pretty firm that he sees this as being like the main value driver for um a lot of these institutional flows. I know Mike from Blockworks has been talking about this.

He's also pretty convinced that this is going to be the main value driver. So, there's quite a bit of confluence in this concept of like looping RWA as the main value driver for uh capital allocators outside of the space. Just curious like what do you think about that? Like is there is there a specific strategy you think that that these flows will want to be going into? Is there a a a right way to think about this looping when it comes to FRA, FRX, USD, stable coins in general? How do you think about like this this concept of looping and credit creation as the main kind of additional value ad that that crypto rails provide to institutional

capital allocators? Yeah, I think that the reason why they're bringing this capital onchain for looping is because of the transparency of the system and like the risk is very controlled. As long as you're working with one of these blue chip DeFi protocols, you get like blockby-block transparency into what you're doing, what the risk is involved. Um I think the the challenge which some projects are trying to address is around um you know like T+1 settlement of these real world assets when you're trying to loop them you actually like each loop you're adding in that settlement time.

Um and so there are some projects that are doing um basically like flash loans uh where you can size up on a loop on a real world asset. Um, in order to do that, you need someone who's providing a lot of liquidity of the real world asset. And so that's again a place where we can come in both on the supply of the asset side, but also when inevitably liquidation of these assets happen, um, you need someone with a large supply of it. So yeah, I agree um that it is a massive source of incoming TVL. Um, traditionally like we've looped things that are native to DeFi and we've run out of that supply. Um, and so our ability to tap into institutional

capital is like limitless and as it comes on chain I think that's why people are so excited. And what do you think you know we obviously we believe in the growth of stable coins you know as as this industry evolves um upwards of you know trillions of dollars of stable coins ultimately on chain. What are you seeing as a primary driver of this? Because from from my my perspective, it's you know almost got this cold start problem right at you know you've got the necessary collateral and reserves that need to be generated in the terms of treasuries and then once you receive those treasuries you can mint these you know additional stable coins on chain. Um but first you need to get the treasuries and you do that you

know by by working with teams that are ultimately going to deploy capital. And so h how do you think more like how do we get fracks more treasuries and therefore more frack USD onchain? >> Yeah. Um our main sources of growth are um the pekeeper strategy on curve. So um pairing with all like DeFi stable coins um and then growing FRAUSD as like a core stable coin asset in DeFi protocols. Um but the main thing is getting uh FraUSD to the point where it's treated as money in the real world.

Um similar to how we're talking about how uh traditional finance you need to bring that institutional capital on chain to really see growth. The same thing is going to apply to DeFi stable coins or stable coins that are built in the genius era for payments. Uh it needs to be accepted as money in large venues um and within the payment system. And so a lot of our work is focused on actually crossing that chasm into the real world and FRAUSD serving as a rail for very large payments. Yeah, definitely. I think that's kind of the we had this the liquidity CEO on last week of stabled up and we talked about kind of the actual like the two types that that Sam opened up this

entire series with back in episode one about kind of genius compliance stable coins and more like yield bearing yield coins or whether it's like you know algorithmically collateralized or ETHbacked or whatever it is something that's not just pure onetoone backed by treasuries um a and you know as you say in order for to to kind of cross that chasm of money as a genius compliance stable coin that you know that's really the the chasm that you're trying to cross which is that getting it accepted into as many venues as possible being having it be used for payments. I think that's kind of like the massive competition going on right now between uh USDT USDC FRXUSD and and the likes.

It's it's very much so that kind of race. And what is interesting right now, and I put out a tweet about this today, is, you know, I think that the crypto market structure bill will get passed in Q2. And perhaps that's a bit bold. I think everyone wants it to be passed before uh midterms, but in Q4 when we get the new Congress. Um, but what people don't quite understand right now, Sean, is that while Genius Act has been uh, you know, signed and put through, it it's not exactly implemented yet. And so there's still some kind of waiting period right now for other stable coin players to kind of enter the playing field because the the Genius Act is still kind of in this state. I'm not

exactly sure how the US legislative system works, but it kind of goes into a state before it gets implemented. And then the crypto market structure bill is also very notable because the banks and and Grant Armstrong from Coinbase and others are fighting big time right now tooth and nail about whether or not yield will get passed to stable coins and whether or not that's going to cause a capital flight from banks. So, lot to unpack here, guys, but I think it's it's worthwhile spending, you know, the next bit talking about Genius Act, the market structure bill, what yield getting passed back to stable coins holders looks like, the effects of that, will capital flight really happen? Um, so Sean, kind of open-ended here, but take it where you like. How do you think

about the current state of the regulatory climate in the US? >> Yeah, I think it's much friendlier than it used to be. I think Genius Act was a monumental bill that allowed for innovation in stable coins. Um I I do think there is an ongoing fight around yield for stable coins. Um I I think it's interesting because you know there's underlying yield. Uh how do you keep that from being passed on to holders? Uh it's kind of an odd proposition to protect banks, but um ultimately you know there's there's ways around it. Um, I think, you know, maybe you won't be able to have just like direct you hold the stable coin and it's basically just like a high yield savings

account. Um, but there's so many other ways to incentivize usage of something that's not directly tied to holding something. Um, I think a great example of this was lighter this past week. Uh, you know, they announced that they were getting revshare on their USDC. Um but what actually they were doing with that was they were incentivizing reduced funding rates for their premium traders on their platform. So this is taking underlying stable coin yield. It's incentivizing like certain actions on your platform. It's still rerouting that yield back into your ecosystem, but it's doing it in a way you choose, but it's not incentivizing just holding of the stable coin. And so that would, you

know, pass what what the regulations are around. So I think there's a lot of like clever ways to still end up with the same result where your platform is more sustainable with the underlying yield without uh addressing those things. >> From from your experience, just to double click on this, like we we had a chat with, you know, another stable coin provider and uh he seemed like he wasn't too concerned about this whole narrative around capital flight out of banks. Um, from my perspective, this is probably the most bullish narrative that could have came to stable coins. Like the fact that we're now like at a point where we're looking at the banking industry and they're they're the ones saying like stable coins are posing a real threat if

it wasn't for our regulatory moat. You know, how do you approach this? Generally, I see this as a very bullish thing. are are you you know how much of a like kumbaya we want to work with banks you know approach should we be taking and how much should it be like yeah we are going to spur capital flight we are going to take all these deposits out of banks and put them into you know uh onchain protocols >> yeah I I think um yeah we still have a long way to go but I I definitely think it's like a huge victory moment to have them you know trying to fight to keep things from happening in the DeFi world because they're concerned about what might happen to uh their own bottom

line. So yeah, I think that's that's a massive victory. At the same time, banks I don't believe banks are in trouble in the slightest. You know, banks have so much power and they offer so much more than just a deposit. So, um I'm not concerned about that. But, you know, if 1% of capital from banks do come into stable coins, then, you know, yeah, we're looking at a a huge growth industry for stable coins. Um, but yeah, I think really where stable coins are going to see outsized growth opportunity is around just like being nimble and providing uh benefits to existing corporations in ways that a bank is not going to offer for the next like three

to five years. As we see that banks who are uh posting these stable coin job offerings are saying you're going to design our stable coin strategy to you know launch within the next you know three to five years. Uh so they're they're operating on a different time scale and banks will be fine. Um but stable coins are going to be much better off. I I do agree with that. >> Yeah. I mean, we actually talked to a a this a chief marketing officer of a pretty big public company last week and uh one of their core initiatives is actually to reduce the narrative of capital flight from banks uh via stable coins in an effort to try to get comp the banks to

comply with the crypto market structure bill and with the idea that um they should actually collaborate with like the bank should collaborate with these large stable coin providers, right? Rather than view them as enemies. So there's like there's this cipher punk cryptonative folk yelling like we're going to kill the banks and then meanwhile the comm leads of the larger stablecoin providers are trying to squash that narrative and actually be friendly to banks. So it's quite interesting.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, I I want to build on that because it it feels like it's inevitable. Like maybe it takes three to five years until, you know, these guys ultimately come into the scene, but we're building and picking off chunks of the financial system bit by bit. The this morning I was looking into the repo market, right, which is doing like 10 trillion dollars in the US every single day. Um, and we're actually starting to see a lot of that come on chain as well. I was looking at, you know, Broadidge is using this DLR product. They're doing like $250 billion a day. Most of this is happening on Canton network, which makes it a little bit difficult to really understand like where where it's happening or what's happening. But how

are you guys approaching some of these facilities around just pure cash and thinking about okay how can we help facilitate you know some of these big large capital transfers that happen on a rolling daily basis given that you guys have the liquidity on both sides of the aisle. >> Yeah. Um we're definitely well positioned to bridge that gap between DeFi and Trfi. Um I mean we're not at the level of trillions of treasuries that are happening on Canton, but we are a validator on Canton. We do take bets on ecosystems that we think have a ton of potential and Canton is definitely one of those. Uh you know, their like partnership lineup is insane. I mean, they have like every single major bank

signing on to be a partner. Um, and they've built from like a customer first standpoint in terms of like talking to these institutions and figuring out what they need. And that's why they're so privacy focused because that's one of the things that came out of those discussions. They were, you know, working on privacy before privacy became a narrative in crypto. Um, and uh, another one of those is layer zero. They just launched their network. Um, you know, we use layer zero as a crosschain provider. Um, so we will definitely be working closely with them on that. Uh, and then I think one other one is Tempo. Um, Tempo has so much potential in the stable coin payment space and we just released a blog post

with them. We're uh the first stable coin protocol to build on their tip 20 uh ERC or well their tip 20 token standard uh which has like stable coin gas uh rewards as well as pay payment for gas. Um and so FRAUSD is one of the first to do that. Yeah, I mean they've uh assembled the avengers of crypto is what we're calling it. Um coming back to kind of how you're seeing uh you know things like the repo market, things like banks coming on chain. Uh is there is there a path that you guys have have seen through your work uh you know in partnerships with Sam's work in DC? um you know it it like like just I'm curious what the

progression has been the last six months right as you've seen the change in demand or change in appetite right I think like the driving force behind a lot of these uh institutional digital assets teams is like they have like this FOMO effect of like wanting to launch a stable coin because their competitors are wanting to actually build in in in the digital asset space because their competitors are hiring people like in your conversations what is changing materially as of late. Maybe you can just like walk us through a bit of the evolution of your processes, what that's been look uh looking like in your conversations, whether it be policy makers, regulators, institutional flow.

Um you know, what's that what's that actually looking like behind the scenes? Give our audience a grasp of like what that conversation looks like currently. >> Definitely. Yeah, I think FOMO is a good way of describing it. I think a lot of these traditional institutions, they were playing a wait andsee mode. Um and some of the early innovators were kind of doing experiments but not really using anything in production. And now we're getting to the point where these traditional in financial institutions are going beyond experiments and like actually integrating these flows into production. And that's when you start to have kind of like this watershed moment when all of these these banks are realizing that they're behind the ball already. Um they're slow moving. And so all of a sudden you see this flood of

job postings for uh for stable coin uh development programs within these banks. Um and similar in our conversations with um companies who are looking to adopt stable coins in the past. We would have these meetings and they would say yeah stable coins is something that we like have on our radar but we like don't think it's super pressing but you know of course we're going to take this meeting because we want to like learn more. But now you take the meeting and it's like how do we get this in production in our flow today because people now understand that there are clear benefits as these products have come to market and so they want to have those benefits for their uh bottom line as well. Um and so our conversations is

much more around implementation and then you know thanks to uh the state of AI coding like it's way faster to uh get to a usable product that's integrated into someone's existing flow uh than it was in the past. you know, we've already built all the smart contract infrastructure and the, you know, stable coin itself. Um, and it has TBL and it has, uh, you know, a five-year track record of security and so that's kind of what gets us the role and then our ability to move very quickly uh is what uh brings it to market.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, with the the acceleration of these engineering timelines, like what are you guys seeing as the primary limiting factor? Where's the bottleneck to growing this thing 10 20x? >> Yeah, I mean the bottleneck at the end of the day is um you know convincing the institutions that we are the best solution and so we have institutions in our pipeline who have been sold and these things are coming to market and then I think once you have um like a really big partnership announcement and then you can kind of lean on that to close a ton more deals. So ATW was really the first one uh from an

institutional standpoint to have a investment bank, New York City investment bank put 50 million to FRAUSD. That sends a signal to all institutions that you know they did deep due diligence on our setup of FRAUSD um and how everything functions and they signed off on that and they're comfortable holding tens of millions of dollars in FRAUSD. Uh so that's step one. But as we go to release more of these partnerships throughout the year, um that is going to close a lot more deals as well.

>> Yeah, it's a flywheel effect. Yeah, >> exactly. >> Yeah, it's the it's the Clooney effect. Um when they were making Oceans 11, uh they told Brad Pitt that Clooney was in and then they told Clooney that Pit was in and then they were both in. Um Sean, as we come to a close here, what what is the kind of roadmap here for Fracks coming into Q2 into Q3? Um right, you know, when you look at the at the landscape of Genius compliance stable coins, there's there's quite a bit of competition especially coming on as I was mentioning as the genius that kind of gets implemented and the green light goes on for more and more uh you know banks, financial in institutions and other others to collaborate in this landscape. You guys have a fraet product

that is kind of built for that expansion, but also this F FRXUSD product uh being your main genius compliance stable coin sitting uh pretty in the nine figure market cap range. Where are we looking for from you know Q1, Q2 into Q3? What what has to materially grow and change for F FRXUSD to become uh a larger more competitive genius compliance stable coin? >> Yeah, definitely. So um on the DeFi side, we have our peekeeper strategy and then DeFi protocols. So A is going to be a huge one when that comes online, but we also just last week announced that FRAUSD is integrated on EtherFi. Uh so now everybody who has an EtherFI card can load up FRAUSD, spend it, and get

the risk-free rate, which is better than uh like, you know, holding USDC on its own and not not getting the yield. Um so uh yeah, we're going to continue to integrate into more of these NEO banks. Um as you know FRAUSD is basically just base infrastructure there. Um we're also working on making FRAUSD more accessible for retail. Fra is more like of an institutional dashboard. So we have a mobile app we're working on. Uh very basic just focused on like the easiest fastest way to get someone onboarded to a stable coin without you know bombarding them with meme meme token trading and all that stuff. It's just very stable coin and payments focused.

Um, and then a lot of growth will come from our institutional partnership side as well as FRAUSD becomes more integrated into everyday payments. Um, so yeah, that that's the main focus is that we're growing. Um, we've built the infrastructure side and then uh partnerships is going to grow. >> Awesome. Sean, thanks so much, man. It's a it's a pleasure to have you on and uh yeah, you guys are doing great work in stable coins, one of the one of the primary sectors of our NEO finance thesis and there's tons getting built out around uh what you guys are doing as well as stable coins as a whole. So, thanks for coming on. It was a pleasure and shout out to Fracks for sponsoring stabled up.

Uh we really appreciate you guys and uh yeah, you guys are I I think you know helping the space out as a whole by uh investing in the educational resource that you know we have here at this show. And see you in New York, man. See you in the Big Apple very soon, Sean. >> Sounds good. >> All righty, buddy. >> I'll see you next time. >> Cheers. >> All righty, guys. That wraps up episode number 21 of Stabled Up. Sean Kelly, the VP of partnerships and comms at Fox. We covered vaults. We covered uh what FRXUSD is doing to grow with the genius compliant stable coin market regulatory landscape tokenized RWA looping and more. Guys, we're going to take a quick

commercial break back with some news coverage. Then we're going to have Tristan from Bullet come up and talk about his mainet launch as well as G Money to get an insight into what he's doing in the AI world. Guys, don't go anywhere. We'll be right back in just 30 seconds. >> [music] >> Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to

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fully private chat experience. All righty, guys. Back to some news. Uh, Macroscope. In the decade that I've been posting here, I've never done a product review, which is crazy. This guy's more known for his macro takes, his trading takes. Uh, but he tried >> I followed him for a long time. >> Yeah, he tried out Coinbase's borrow product. This lets customer borrow cash using Bitcoin as a collateral. I didn't have a need for this. I think it's a great product. you get um tax-free long-term Bitcoin if you can hold it long term, borrow against it to pay for your expenses, to pay for um you know to

buy more tokens, to you know take that USDC, withdraw it, etc. But I wanted to see how easy they've made it. I was amazed. The entire process was simple and took just a few minutes. You deposit Bitcoin as collateral and get USDC which is immediately convertible to USD. Then a quick transfer to your linked bank account. It's seamless and you never leave the platform. The variable APR 30-day average is currently 4.8% which is what you pay to borrow the money. Um this is powered by Morpho P part of that NEO finance thesis. Um basically and this macroscope if you scroll down he kind of highlights how the centralized exchange UX now rivals or surpasses DeFi

simplicity for nontechnical users. Of course, DeFi's borrowing has been around for a long time, but his sense is that many people in the space don't realize how easy the process has become for the casual non- tech user or how competitive the APRs are. Certainly makes BTC even more useful and attractive asset to own. I agree with that. Um, you know, this makes BTC a productive collateral, not just a store of value. It's actually quite appealing from my perspective as to like when I start to reallocate into Bitcoin.

I like the biggest problem is the tax stuff. Um, you know, you want to be in a as tax advantageous as as possible. A and this borrowing strategy something that a lot of wealthy wealthy people do uh over time, right? They borrow against their assets so they don't have to pay tax on the sale. Rather, they can just borrow against it. use that use that capital responsibly to pay for whatever asset or you know whatever purchases that they want to make other assets or you know real life spending. So his main takeaway was disruption.

Yeah. So obviously this works for assets that you want to hold a long time. Um Bitcoin is one of those. Um now I think DeFi has been very complicated for a long time like the user experience has not been there. And so now DeFi is reaching a point of maturity where it is less risky than it used to be. >> Um it is passing security audits. These things these things are resilient now. A morpho you know has grown to a point where uh it can withstand capital at institutional scale. M >> now I think this again is part of the neo finance thesis in the case that you know you have centralized exchanges as the

front end to defy backends >> and so what wouldn't be in the neoinance thesis is you know Coinbase having a product where they would be the own their own lenders but what you have here is just a front end for DeFi DeFi has had a UX problem for a long time Coinbase is solving that by giving people an easier access forgot password button very easy tradition like normal online banking fintech smooth and simplicity >> uh style front end for DeFi in the back end.

>> I'd imagine that a like we heard Stani talk about they want to go into a mobile app. They want to provide all of the same functionality that banks do provide but again do it in such a way that they're tapping into DeFi in the back end. This is something that I think will continue to proliferate and this is how we put DeFi smart contracts into the hands of millions and billions of people. >> Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, this is again if it was just uh Coinbase using Coinbase's product. It would just be a centralized exchange product kind of that Cedi landscape. They'd be controlling where your assets go. all this. I mean, it it it is still has that custodial nature to it, but because we're using Morpho underneath, it

provides the it basically gives Coinbase a new product offering that they wouldn't have been able to offer unless they built out an entire lending desk themselves, had had, you know, had providers of it, had to build out the uh customer support of it, had had to build out all the interest rate modeling. In this case, they're able to just just use Morpho. uh and you know they're really easily able to provide uh a service that makes Bitcoin a pet rock into a productive asset you can borrow against. Uh the APY or the APR is definitely, you know, it's definitely pretty high. Four four and a 4.8% is reasonably high to borrow against. You know, you think about it. If you have million dollars of

Bitcoin, you borrow 25% of that, you know, that's 250,000, you know, over over a year, you're paying upwards of 10 grand just to borrow that $250,000. Um, so you're definitely paying a solid rate in the bare market. Probably hurts. The bull market probably doesn't really feel like anything, but a little nick. Um, you know, especially if you can hold your Bitcoin long term. sell. >> So for for reference, the A rate, just have it open on on USDC, uh is 3.82%. So exactly 1% less. And I'll go ahead and check Morpho as well because I'm curious if that's that 30-day average of 4.82 [snorts]

is just straight pass through on Morpho's rate or if Coinbase charges some fees. >> I'm not sure. >> I takes a little bit of cut. Yeah, I'm sure that they do at least on the borrower or at least on something on on the deposit or or I mean that's kind of like the whole value prop of the service. And so you would think that they're going to be making money off the service providing, right? Like off the service that they're providing. So um yeah >> yeah. >> What is the rate on morpho?

>> I'm looking I have different you actually get a different rate depending on different collateral. Yeah, >> but um >> it's about three and a half percent. Like if you loan wrapped Bitcoin, borrow USDC, it's 3.55%. Uh you loan uh some staked ETH, wrapped stake ETH, borrow USDC, it's 3.55%. >> Yeah. So, so Coinbase is definitely making some money on the top of that then.

>> Yeah. So, they're charging looks like about an extra point. >> Yeah. All right, guys. Let's move on from this great tweet macroscope. Um, thought it was pretty relevant as well uh to the kind of Neo finance thesis. More on Morpho. Asset manager Apollo, which manages 900 billion, enters an agreement to purchase up to 90 million Morpho tokens over 4-year period. We work together for onchain lending. Basically, 90 million Morpho is around $130 million or so. um over four years you kind of get this institutional T-W thesis here is that these institutions are going to it sounds like Apollo is going to start using Morpho um to

actually uh do some of the RWA looping strategies that we had talked about that Kyle Simone is bullish on that Mike from Blockworks is bullish on um and >> we are bullish on I mean look I I truly do think that this is what unlocks a lot of the latent capital that you have you turn end up turning assets into productive assets you turn collateral into programmable collateral and you end up extending the credit supply onchain by an order of magnitude. I I I just I think this is like the next phase of what we're h what's happening here. You see why Black Rockck Larry Fink is so excited about tokenization. It's not because you just have these things and he cuts, you know, a point and a half off of his accounting expenses. There's all kinds of products that can be

unlocked as a result of this thing. >> Yeah. I mean, 90 million Morpho purchased is also not a small amount. Morpho is part of the N7 index, which I'm actually looking at right now. Uh, I just ran the query on it earlier this morning to get updated charts based on the weekend. Um, and yeah, I mean, Morpho is leading the Neo Finance tokens returns since January 1. 27% return since January 1st for Morpho. Uh pretty incredible uh number there. Hype behind it with a 20% return. Sky at 14% return and a at -13 centrifuge negative8

and then it kind of drops off from there. And so if you guys look at at our N7 index which is dune.comchispytheup neoi the N7 index has a categorical return of negative6.72% this year Bitcoin's at -22% defi core negative30 L1s and L2s around negative 35% and so Morpho is actually now after this announcement is leading the um kind is backpacking the N7 index. And so, uh, I think this this chart looks great. This news is great, and it's awesome to see that, uh, they

were able to pull this off. >> And obviously, we believe that the N7 index is going to backpack uh, crypto on the upswing once once tides turn uh, and we transition into a broader bull market. Once again, uh, we believe that this is ultimately going to be a secular bull market. You're going to see a lot of adoption happen in some core areas. We believe this neo finance thesis where you do have institutional yield farming through some choice DeFi applications. That's where a lot of activity is primed to happen. And it's actually happening sooner. I don't I'm curious to hear what you think.

>> I think it's happening sooner than I would have expected. >> Yes. the trans the the progression from okay first you bring the assets onchain through tokenization then you incorporate them into defy mechanisms collateralization lending thing I would have think and I I read a a great article I read a great article the other day about how the lending markets right now are not structured according to what institutions are going to want >> uh there's going to need to be more syndication as a result of these things because you know you have super states credit market you have bidd There's not only just accredited investor, you know, access controls. There's also redemptions and liquidity controls.

These assets do not follow just a single ERC20 standard, which is why lending markets like a make it so easy. Everything is follows the same token standards, not the way RWAs work. And so, lending markets are going to need to be rebuilt. I would have thought we wouldn't have seen the deep integration between institution uh asset classes and DeFi. I would have thought we it would have taken a lot more time to do those integrations and build out some more configurations of how these things should look. It's happening a lot faster than I would have thought. And the actual the actual um allocation into these assets did not think was going to happen to

>> Yeah. Yeah. That was the part that that was the part of this announcement that was kind of shocking is like just a heads up anyone who owns Morpho, you're going to be getting an institutional grade T-W for the next four years. congratulations like here you go. >> Tokenization still is still early. So to see the adoption and the and the integration into DeFi progress so quickly was surprising. And then obviously I felt like the the last pillar of this was going to be ultimately allocating into these you know governance tokens, network tokens, but it's happening all in one fell swoop.

>> You Yeah. you would have thought like um they would use the application on chain with their products first, but now I mean they're kind of saying like look, we're going to be buying these things and we're going to be using them and our thesis seems to be uh whatever products we're using is the products that we're going to be buying um a and the tokens that we're going to be buying. And it just seems like it's clear that yeah, I mean the products that we're using are the are what we're going to be buying. I think that about wraps up the headlines for today and the news on today's amazing President's Day special show. Um, we do have a rumor mill coming up. Um, that's going to be interesting.

We've had quite a bit of rumors come through. I actually just got some new rumor mill information uh coming through the pipe this week about something to do with EtherFi this week. Not exactly sure what it is quite yet, but uh hearing things there. So, if you guys are watching this, you know, Ephra is part of the N7 index um and you do know that that there's something happening there. So, why don't we why don't we bounce off of the screen here um and get ready for our rumor mill coming up, which is a bit more of a broad stroke um rumor mill.

It's a bit more of a >> It's a bit more vague. It's a bit bit ambiguous today. >> Yeah, it's a bit more vague. It's a bit more ambiguous. uh it's not exactly directly tied to um anything to do with the kind of uh crypto asset market. Like I'm not sure there's going to be straight alpha on what to buy, what to invest in as a result of this. I know we've had some pretty good runs this past week as to, you know, what's what's coming out, who's announcing what. We got looped in on Layer Zero early. Looped in on some Y a stuff early. Looped in on We did not get looped in on the Morpho stuff early, but I did see it the moment it came out.

Um, so yeah, let's get into the rumor mill segment of the day here and roll into it because I think it's going to be interesting uh what what we have. So um without further ado, guys, here comes Rum. rumor mill Citadel and JP Morgan threatened to sue the SEC for what is about to happen. Is this going to happen? Is the rumor mill uh going to occur? Is Citadel and JP Morgan threatening to actually sue the SEC for what's happening? Apparently there is news coming from the SEC newsroom that there is a new operation

happening that SEC is doing something that is very beneficial for the crypto ecosystem. And if you if you look at the news as of late, top Wall Street firms actually met with the SEC crypto task force on Tuesday, Febru or I I believe it was last it was later in January. Uh and they they had potential concerns with the agency's crypto agenda. A top securities trade group SMA warned that exemptions for tokenizing securities in DeFi could destabilize markets. And so Paul Atkins got more involved and apparently apparently there are updates that are that are coming that will seem imminent. It is probably

the biggest thing that they could conceivably announce is what our sources are are telling us and our sources are telling us that they are suspecting that they wait for Clarity Act negotiations to play out before they make this announcement. Um rumor is something big is is brewing and uh you guys should be keeping an eye out on the SEC newsroom. >> Yeah, look, I mean, we're seeing things happen on both the SEC side as well as the CFTC side after the innovation academy or the innovation uh council was uh released last week with some big names there. The SEC and the CFTC are working closely together. Um and yeah, you alluded to the things that we're

seeing um the exemptions that could come about for uh cash flowing tokens. Um if ultimately what we find here is that there is a regulatory carveout for these tokens. My understanding is that it opens up these businesses to positions and allocations from institutions at the greatest scale, the largest scale. And I guess I think that this is what this is. I think this is a new asset class potentially forming for uh nonsecurity tokens, but it I think it actually may even be bigger than that. I think um it's something bigger. It's something

that is going to have ramifications that would obviously upset Citadel and JP Morgan, >> right? And so you got to think like what could possibly upset them to the point where they would feel the need to sue the SEC. >> Yeah. >> And that guys is what we're going to find out for you. We're going to keep finding out. We're going to keep digging. We got some we had some good sources on this one. Um we're not exactly sure what it is, but is apparently coming out and is going to be one of the bigger bigger announcements from the SEC. And yeah, apparently the task force is really making its runs and trying to make this something that is uh very very net positive for the digital

asset space. >> Yep. So, the SEC's got a crypto task force. Obviously, the SEC is currently very pro crypto. Yeah, we're going to be we're going to be looking more into this as more people are starting to uh are starting to to think about what the SEC could be discussing internally. Um but yeah, I mean this is quite the pivot, quite the bullish reversal from the Gary Gendler. >> Yep. >> The Gary Gendler regime at the SEC. >> All right, guys. That's it for rumor mill today. Um we're going to be back in just a sec. Quick commercial break.

We've got Tristan, the founder of Bullet, who's going to be talking about their mainet launch, the their perstex on Salana. And then we've got G Money talking about all of his recent AI agent operations and uh what he's been doing in the space. So guys, don't go anywhere. If you're watching on YouTube, we have chat on Twitter and YouTube. Uh hit subscribe, hit like. Appreciate you guys being here and we'll be right back. [music] Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto.

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Havachi is fast and private per [music] trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. Go to habachi.xyz to start trading today. [music] We are back with Tristan from Bullet, friend of the show. And uh it's exciting times. You guys launched today. Uh we're recording this a little bit ahead of time. So today's the today's the day. Um I mean you guys have been building for a long time. You've you know been through a lot of the blockchain infrastructure evolutions um and the most recent downturn in the market uh conditions.

Just give us a sense of what the feeling has been like as you gear up for launch in the midst of these market conditions. Give a sense of like how you've been feeling over the last few few days and weeks. >> Yeah, it's it's been interesting and and very polarizing. I guess the kind of pent up excitement having been building B bullets specifically for the last year and a half feels like a lot of things coming to fruition and looking at all the metrics and seeing things kind of uh run and you know seeing the uptime quite high and starting to onboard people onto the platform I think is really exciting like all this work that I've put in and I've been working till like you know 1 2 a.m. every night trying to get this thing over the line so that feels great.

I mean the market unfortunately the sentiment is not great. CT is just, you know, feeling like a bit of a war zone right now. And uh we were talking about this just before uh the show obviously started, but yeah, like the the vibes are a little bit abysmal, but you know, I think I believe and and you believe that this is kind of maybe a little bit of a overblown uh like leg down essentially. Uh and so I I am kind of hopeful with what we've built. You know, some people out there obviously don't believe that that there's been a lot of very like interesting developments in crypto, but I would kind of refute that thesis somewhat. uh especially with the stuff that I've been building and that's why I'm in the space because I am genuinely like interested in and passionate about building high

performance blockchains and uh kind of the the financial infra that I think will power the next you know decade decade or two at least. So uh yeah I think a lot of things coming together. It's an interesting nexus. The markets are kind of all over the place but you know I'm pretty optimistic. >> Very cool. I uh I find it exciting as Well, I think a lot of people that watch as well, you know, are excited about building the next iteration of the financial infrastructure here. We we've obviously seen the rise of purpose exchanges. Um, and and we've seen how decentralized exchanges like Hyperlquid are becoming more liquid than some of the centralized alternatives. Um, you know, they they've got a more liquid book on Bitcoin than Binance uh as of a few days ago. So, you know, give us a

sense of the bullet thesis. You guys are built on Salana. you're using the uh sovereign SDK. Uh give us a sense of you know why it was necessary from your perspective to build bullet another exchange in this environment. >> Yeah, sounds good. Well, we've been building exchange stuff for like roughly the last four years. We started with options trading essentially but uh found that quite hard in terms of getting the adequate liquidity and and honestly just like the retail interest I think for for options on chain hasn't really picked up to the degree we wanted. Per is a completely different story. purpose is this very cryptonative instrument. Uh it's a great way to essentially like trade the markets both on their way up and down as we are right now. Um which is another reason why I'm quite bullish

on the on the per sector like you know some something really survive in the the wag years of crypto where everything is up only but I think trading infrastructure is is fairly ambivalent to the directionality of the market and will continue to be around and you know people at the end of the day have these tokens they need to be able to trade them. uh dexes will basically always uh be a thing that sticks around in my opinion. You know, with our kind of platform in the past, we definitely ran into some limitations and some hurdles in terms of performance and I think that has been a limiting factor for a lot of these exchanges in the past. you know, Dexes all the way from 2020 with with unis swap were a great 0ero to1 innovation, but you know, the the gas fees, the the speed of being able to do

these trades, uh the kind of sophistication of the trading strategies you could do, the uh liquidity profiles and the market making that you could do there was very like limited essentially in terms of these uh two-sided pools and having these automated market makers price off one curve. Um, and now we're getting things that are a lot more expressive like central limit order books are coming on chain. We love to talk about clubbs on blobs essentially um as one of these things that's going to enable people to to trade on chain and have better price discovery. Um and this has really been like a blockchain throughput problem. Like if you wanted to build a central limit order book on Ethereum, I mean no one's been able to do it for for the obvious like limitations of the throughput of the chain. Uh Salano was a big step up in

terms of being able to get to thousands of transactions per second, lower block times. Um and now I think you're seeing this kind of third generation of uh of blockchains come out. Uh and I think the notable exception there is like there is a big uh focus on performance of these blockchains. not only transactions per second but also the kind of transaction execution speed you know certain other like application specific sequencing rules that I think are quite important and I think along with that things are becoming more specific right I think this was a kind of thesis that maybe like cosmos and others had you know uh some rollups going more apps appsp specific as well uh and I think you're seeing more of the specialization like it's great that we have these general purpose chains and I use them all the time and they're very useful for like

the 90% of the applications but I would put per squarely in that bucket that we really care about performance. It really matters because you're you're trading at quite high frequencies. These kind of liquidations are are happening. You need to have the the throughput to be able to put them through in like a timely manner. Essentially, if your blockchain is getting congested, you can't land oracle updates. You can't execute all these kind of trades. This creates a big systemic risk for the platform. We've even seen it, you know, with, you know, lighter and hyperlquid having some downtime or or some kind of small issues or or people trying to run these like exploits or games. Like the these things are always going to get people are always going to try and break these things. They're always going to be under very high load, very high pressure. Uh

and I think it's it's kind of helping over the years. We have these stress tests such as, you know, 1010 that essentially try and make things more robust. And I'm personally very bullish about DeFi products because they are code, they are software, they do things as you kind of program them essentially. Um, this is in very stark contrast to centralized lenders that we had in 2022 that blew up u because they weren't able to, you know, deal with risk or kind of offload positions. Uh, and I think that's the the beauty of DeFi. We kind of codify these rules. We iterate them over time. We build something that is basically bulletproof uh and unbreakable. Uh, and that's that's why I'm bullish showing up on what we're building.

>> Got it. And and so, you know, pointing back to 1010, people realized like, you know, we thought the infrastructure was a lot better. Turns out we still got a lot of work to do. Uh, things weren't quite as seamless as as we thought. Um, and you know, if you look at the flip side at you know, Celestia, they just announced another another uh, you know, increase in the in the size of blocks. um you know people are giving them some flak because well you know things aren't filling up the blocks now to this to to where they are at capacity. So give us a sense of you know with some of the changes that you guys are doing was it like 1010 wouldn't have happened. We would have had proper liquidations. We would have you know been able to uh essenti this this uh central limit order

book in a more seamless and robust fashion. What are some of the changes that you think are are before and after the the bulletproof moment here? >> Yeah, that's a really good question and a hard one to to kind of uh you know dive into, but I I think actually like a lot of probably lies squarely with the centralized exchanges. It was a bug in the uh Binance pricing mechanism essentially how they did their their kind of oracle or like index pricing. Uh, and so I think that obviously had like big ramifications and showed that we are kind of very dependent on like a a central actor I think and a bit of like a monopoly here in the in the exchange space. So I think that's like

maybe one of Binance's oversightes. They are the giant and they were referencing their own order books and those order books basically went spiral obviously forced this auto delever on a on a ton of players on their platform as well. Uh, and that kind of left people like legged with these big positions that they potentially lost on. So things that I think came up is obviously more divers more diversity in in terms of the exchanges that are out there. More I think dependence and weight on on DeFi as well. Uh and then I think the last bit which was talked about a lot is uh some of these uh margin uh systems and improving how they work. One one big thing that a lot of people didn't know about was how autod leverage works and it's not a it's not a beautiful system.

You know there are definitely some flaws with it and and kind of people have been thinking through new solutions to that. Uh so I think it's brought a lot of these questions to the forefront. These things that we took for granted I think that were invented by BitMEX very many years ago. I think people are kind of going back to the drawing board and thinking about how can we build uh more secure more robust systems because uh there's no doubt that these kind of flash crashes are probably going to happen again and who knows in even larger magnitude. And so, uh, I'm what I'm curious about is is what users are going to see in terms of a difference, you know, before if they were just using a, uh, one of the purpose exchanges that are out there now, be it Hyperlid or Lighter or or one of the centralized

alternatives >> or [snorts] even just the trading experience on Salana, you know, now with Bulletproof or with Bullet, given that you guys are using a lot of the Salana infrastructure, but also leveraging Celestia underneath the hood for some increased throughput, what should the enduser experience experience be like what should they see when they're trading? >> Yeah, fantastic question. Uh meant to answer that before actually, but yeah, what we saw with our old platform when we were actually doing a lot of the execution on on the Salana layer 1 itself was it was very hard to execute things in a timely manner like we saw and and something that actually caught me off guard on on 1010. Um we baked in some assumptions essentially that you know people's portfolio or certain accounts can't go underwater within you

know 10 seconds or something like that. Uh or you know there would be be these massive draw downs essentially to to mark people liquidatable. Um and it turns out yeah trigger orders you know take profit and loss orders and the stop losses will get hit on the way down. Uh and so that's a big part of what we engineered into into bullet one. We have very fast execution, able to execute trades within basically 500 milliseconds. Um, we're able to process like several thousand trades a second as well, which I think under, you know, persistent load for these big market spikes, we might see thousands, if not tens of thousands of transactions happening a second. So, that's kind of our our watermark in terms of where we need to get to in terms of uh performance. Um and then yeah uh with data our previous platform when we had

big market wicks uh we had to contend with tons of arbitrage bots liquidation thing RPC connections to the max to get their uh transactions through. And as an exchange you really need dedicated throughput. You really need to be able to get through the highv value transactions such as the oracle updates such as the liquidations. And so I can sleep a lot more uh safely at night I think knowing that this kind of stuff is going to get very process pro processed very quickly and we've run some tests and benchmarks and we can hammer this thing with like thousands of transactions and kind of see it execute very very quickly and and sharply there.

So I think yeah those kind of engineering advancements are are quite paramount to to building a good exchange on chain. Yeah, I mean we know reliability, liquidity, these are the things that uh traders are going to rely on and oftentimes they're going to the most trustworthy exchange that the one that's not going to sell their order flow uh and ultimately is going to have the most uptime and uh m maintain the liquidity. Um congrats you guys are now live. Uh it's a it's obviously a long road to get here where you guys are today. Uh give us a sense of what comes up next.

>> Right now mainet is is basically live. if we are doing good roll out essentially is the the safest way to get it out there to scale up the systems and also I think to make it a bit more uh exciting for the early people to to get in people who've been supporting the project for the last couple of years you know people that we know that are very solid traders and friends of the project bringing them in and and next couple of weeks essentially is is we're rolling out to our first few hundred users and hopefully first few thousand if everything goes well. Uh so getting people a taste of the platform. They're going to see the speed there, how easy it is to kind of connect up and and start trading. Uh we're going to go live. Uh we're going to have our APIs

pretty much launching hopefully within the the next week or so. We've put a lot of effort into this. Uh making this really professional grade essentially for for people to come in and do algorithmic trading, which is where we're going to get a bunch of liquidity and and kind of trading volume through. We've had a big focus on that. Uh, and then yeah, continue to kind of scale up more assets. The beautiful thing is we've had a bit of time to stress test it and and and kind of work through that. So, I think that's very exciting to get deposits into the platform and get people essentially being able to to trade all the different markets under the one portfolio margin system. Uh, there's a lot of new exciting stuff that can come out through there as well. Uh, there's a bit of an alpha leak, but you

know, I've been talking with some of our engineers and how we can enable stuff like prediction markets within that margin framework as well. Um, so I think that's that's very cool. A lot of these different financial products and and kind of related products are going to come together. Um, we're also very bullish on this uh narrative of equity trading as well. So being able to get listings I think will be really important and something that's obviously been kind of ripping and tradition. So breaks us out of that fouryear cycle of cryp crypto. We can use this blockchain. I'm excited for it's like a continual roll out. We got a lot of exciting things in the pipeline. The performance continues to get better as we kind of crack on with the engineering problems.

the scalability gets better as well uh as we continue to build things out and work with great teams like Celestia who are kind of continuing to to hit their milestones on their on their roadmap as well. Uh and yeah, I think the main kind of call to action there is if people want to get whitelisted to the platform, you can either join or you can uh visit the website at app.bullet.xyz and you can go there should be a kind of request access form, but you can also DM me or people on the team and we'll be giving out like a limited amount of invite codes. So getting people early into the platform so they can kind of get exposure to some of the points and uh you know being early users of the platform and and supporters and helping us grow and giving us good feedback and

helping us build the hopefully the best product on the market. >> Been an incredible journey so far and uh best of luck uh as you guys continue. >> Great. Thanks so much for having me Robbie. Really appreciate it as always. >> Absolutely. Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to

bridge your assets now. All right. Well, I missed the uh uh Bullet conversation. Rob, how how'd it go? >> It was good. Yeah, we did that uh we did that interview a little while ago. We recorded before the mainet came out. Aired it today. Bullet Main is out. Uh look, I think, you know, Bullets got a bit of a technical edge because they're using Celestia. They are the crux of Clobs on Blobs. Um, you know, I I think Hyperlid because they have a little bit more of a centralized model is able to compete uh on the same levels of throughput, but according to what Tristan's saying, >> Bullet is going to outpace that throughput uh significantly and maintain

a lot of decentralized architecture. Uh so it was pretty cool to hear. um on a separate you if we're just talking about the perp ecosystem at large um you know I think there's a lot of room for per platforms to start to specialize like you know we talked about um I think we'll get them on the show soon but Verun from Habachi is going into this direction as well they're hyperfocusing on FX I think that's a great great move to specialize and then I think you know we're going to see a lot more like RWA focused purpose platforms as well because Look, PERPS is just a modality that applies to all of these things. To get a general purpose per platform to win some market share, I think it's largely a game that's already been won,

but doesn't mean that Per is done. >> I think I think Per has a lot more room to go. We're going to see a lot more niche product offerings in the per space. >> Yeah, I agree. Like I think if you're just launching a basic purp um you know you're p you're kind of just >> it's certainly an uphill battle to gain any kind of market share from hyperlquid or lighter any of these guys. >> Yeahational definitely is. All right guys spark became sparkland became the second largest money market defi by TVL in just 252 days. As it stands, Sparkland differentiates itself as a permissionless institutional grade blue chip money market protocol.

>> Yeah, >> Spark defines blue chip assets via three main criteria. High mark cap and liquidity, low volatility, and proven resilience. So, you scroll down, you can kind of see some of the uh chart activity here as Spark rises through the ranks with the uh with the help of Grove uh with the help of of some of the other sky stars. So if you look here total value lock by lending protocol outside of a you've got Morpho at 10 billion you've got spark at 7.39 billion fluid maple commamino compound and others but you can see that sparkland launched in that May 9th uh uh um 2023

and you can see that sparkland becomes the second largest money market protocol by TVL in January and then really goes on to keep that for for a while. It's funny how they do these headlines. 252 days, but it was like two years ago and then and then it kept that it's kept that position since. Um [laughter] yeah, if you see there, there was a couple points 2024 where Spark almost overtook Morpho. Um now Morpho has widened its lead over Spark.

>> Yeah. uh probably the you know Coinbase integration is is helping them uh maintain that but I think Spark is doing great. Pleasure to have Rune on the other day talking about how this mechanism works. >> Yeah, >> Spark obviously is one of the main stars in the Sky ecosystem and so they're able to provide some upside in terms of the return of the base savings rate to SUSD. And so they're able to capture all of that upside which I think is uh a great mechanism for fueling their growth and Sky is just continuing to plug along getting more and more uh allocations from asset managers and Spark is going

to be a beneficiary of that. So yeah, look, I think >> yeah, >> just just to close that point, I think, you know, they these lending protocols are starting to go B2B TOC, which I think is going to be a positive move in in this space. You know, before like Morpho, you had to go directly to the Morphos uh website, deposit using your own browser wallet. Uh now Morpho is working with the likes of Coinbase. You're seeing this in prediction markets as well. You got Call She working with Robin Hood. Coinbase is starting to to use prediction markets. Uh and and so I just I just think you know the part of the Neo finance thesis is that we're going to have traditional legacy businesses start to incorporate DeFi lending markets in the back end and be

just become distribution channels for this technology. >> I agree. I agree. Yeah. USDS is uh crushing over $10 billion or just at that $10 billion market cap. Um, you know, Rune came on was talking about how they expect to get that to be to 20 billion this year and also a doubling in annual revenue would be pretty impressive if they can pull that off. So, all right guys, we got G Money in nine minutes. We got our final final news headline of the day and it is the stable coin standoff. Crypto and banks remain deadlocked ahead of the White House deadline. So, this is from our friends over at Crypto in America, Eleanor Tourett and Crypto in America.

There's there's another potential White House meeting this week where there will we'll see where things stand on the stable coin yield argument. Something to add here, guys, is we actually got the digital chamber of commerce's uh report over the weekend about the latest on stable coin yield. And uh in that report there was a couple key takeaways that I gathered that I would like to share with you guys um from that report specifically. So basically the the digital chamber wrote a stable coin reward principles letter. The principles are aimed at balancing stable coin regulation with market innovation

specifically addressing the yield and interest prohibition which was proposed in the recent Senate Banking Committee discussions. This is also what got Brian Armstrong fired up amongst other a aspects of the ongoing market structure bill debates. It's also the main point that banks are using to argue that capital flight will result from yield being enabled to be passed through to holders of stable coins. The digital chamber is proposing to do a deposit impact study two years after the legislation passes to review really how stable coin activity affects traditional bank deposits. They believe, as do I, as did Sean from Fracks earlier on the show, that this study will show that stable coins complement rather than disrupt the banking system, at least in

the immediate short term, the ramifications of this in the mid to longer term. I'm not exactly sure what the ramifications will be. At the end, they go on to say that they support community banking and local lending, suggesting that crypto rails paired with traditional banking infrastructure will ultimately benefit American consumers. I think this bill will get passed. Stable coin yield will be passed on to holders. However, I feel there's a massive education gap that needs to be filled with banks first, which could take quite a while. Many of us want this to be done before midterms. That's the line in the sand. I'm predicting it'll be done in Q2 to be continued.

It's a good summary. I don't have a lot to add. I'm loving the reports from the digital chamber and I am looking forward to the DC blockchain conference in March where we will be talking directly with lawmakers, regulators, policy makers uh in DC. Uh I think we're going to have to put on the suit for that one. Andy, what do you think? >> Nice. Yeah, I mean I just think that that uh this whole kind of like stable coin yield argument is is pretty crazy that that's the one thing that is stopping this from getting through.

There's so much other market structure uh things happening and phenomenon happening, but the stable coin uh market structure is the most important for the banks, for the crypto industry as a whole. Yeah, I find it to be a bit I I I'm a little bit surprised as to how much push back there is on this just given that the stable coins aren't even that big. Um, and banks are so much bigger. But I like I said earlier during stabled up, I think the fact that banks are saying there's a potential of $6 trillion capital flight to to move out of banks if there were to go through, I think that is an extremely bullish headline for stable coins. And I if I'm a stable

coins, you know, marketing comm's lead, I'm leaning into that. I'm saying, yeah, you know, it's time. For so long, it was like, you know, revolutionary, but stable coins were kind of always playing this like bank Kumbaya, >> man. >> Yeah, banks don't want a study done. They want a ban. Yeah, I agree, Paul Baron Network. I totally agree. Yeah. If we scroll down here some more, we can see a response from uh what from the Senate Banking Committee to uh the digital chamber about their principles and yeah, I mean if you see here basically uh these principles push to persevere or to preserve stable coins as payment in instruments, protect DeFi

liquidity and dollar dominance and establish a rigorous data driven framework for assessing deposit impact, the group said. So, seems like there's a group that's on board with the stable coin uh kind of uh bill here with with getting this through, but the banks have not formally weighed in on the digital chamber of commerce's principles. Um, but it sounds like it's constructive. Um, it sounds like some of the pros may be too broad to win banks support. So, yeah, I mean, look, nobody's working today. It's President's Day. It's a holiday except for the rollup. Um, and yeah, I mean it's unclear whether a deal can be reached by the end of the month.

Um, I like I said, I would be optimistic for Q2 is is my take. We shall see, guys. We've got G Money coming up in just a few moments. Um before we start talking about quite a bit more uh politics on the show, um you know, we're we're going to bring him up very very soon. Uh >> did you have any coffee today, man? >> No, I haven't had coffee in like two in like a month and a half. What is that? A Celsius?

>> I just killed a whole Celsius. I'm firing. >> What's on your mind? The CFTC is tapping crypto bigwigs for advisory committee Mike Se. So if you scroll down a bit, this is what we talked about with the innovation um uh committee here last week. We saw our friend Vance from the show got on this as well as CEOs from Coinbase, Uniswap, even Poly Market and Koshi. Um former acting chair Caroline Fam who now joined Moonpay is actually was actually a part of the initial wave. Um, again, we got some push back from this on Twitter.

People were like, I remember CMS was like, great group, very very solidly selected as if it was like kind of a meme that you know uh he was that that this group got uh kind of created in this random way. Um, and yeah, I mean, look, they're trying to bring together participants from every corner of the marketplace. the innovation uh acceleration committee or or sorry the innovation advisory committee helps to advise the agency on innovation in financial markets. Um so crypto America has done a great job of kind of showing this uh and talking about what Mike Seelig has done and then I think they just had Bohem as well uh to talk about kind of like what the latest is. They went live with the USAT the US version of Tether that

Boheiness is running that is uh live now and and is in production. Uh so that so that's been good to see as well guys. O overall I mean we're we're just seeing actual progress happen in from the policymaker perspective in the innovation uh hub in SEC crypto task force. So again it's one of those bare markets where it's like everything is happening in a bullish way but prices just aren't reflecting it. But at some point what you guys will see is that prices will reflect the news and that's how you know there's been a bit of an inflection point. Uh until that you kind of just stay stay safe, stay relaxed where you are. Um yeah, and stay strong in your in your holdings and I

mean let's see if this gets through. I'm hoping for I'm I'm hoping for Q2. That's my take. So guys, we're take a quick commercial break. We're gonna get G Money up here in just a minute uh and get him up ready to rock and roll. Last guest of the day on this awesome President's Day. He's been doing some really, really interesting things in the AI agent space. So, we will be right back and we'll get ready to go with G Money. Let's go. Yet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto.

Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. [music] Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now. Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Yours, private and here today. Visit near.ai to have a fully private chat experience.

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[music] Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now. Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Yours, private and here today. Visit near.ai to have a fully private chat experience.

Havachi is fast and [music] private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. Go to habachi.xyz [music] to start trading today. Looking for yield that stands out? Infinify gives you just that. Deposit stable coins and earn far more than the current savings rate. Infinifi is a battle tested, reliable DeFi platform that is ready to go. Head to infinifi.xyz.

[music] Open, stable, borderless. Frack is building the next generation of stablecoin infrastructure for the digital [music] finance era. Visit fra.com to learn more today. >> [music] >> Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game.

Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link link to bridge your assets. Now, talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Yours, private and here today. Visit near.ai to have a fully private chat experience. Havachi is fast and [music] private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. Go to habachi.xyz to start

trading today. [music] Looking for yield that stands out? Infinify gives you just that. Deposit stable coins and earn far more than the current savings rate. Infinifi is a battle tested, reliable DeFi platform that is [music] ready to go. Head to infinifi.xyz. [music] Welcome back to AI Supercycle, our premier AI show airing every single week presented by Near. We cover the ins and

outs of decentralized AI privacy and the future of this massive technology. Near is the blockchain for AI and the execution of AI native apps. You can check out Near's latest AI product at near.ai. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. All righty, guys. Welcome back to AI Supercycle episode 21 powered by our friends at Near, their amazing Near.ai chat product, private chat, as well as ironclaw. Not sure if G Money is is familiar with ironclaw quite yet. I'm I know he is of OpenClaw. G Money, good to have you on the show, man. Welcome.

>> Hey, thanks for having me. How are you? >> Good, man. I uh spent four hours setting up OpenClaw this weekend. I got it its own Gmail account, got it a Telegram, uh got it cooking on Google Doc, so I'm getting there. Um I know that you've been you've been doing some work. Maybe just catch us up, man. What's what's the last couple weeks been like? I'm sure you've been oneshotted like like the rest of us here. >> Yeah, I um I'm super curious what your experience has been like on Telegram because I originally set it up on Telegram and I was trying to set up channels. I think the the [clears throat] issue that I ran into is like you it's capable of doing so many things that you want to tackle and have so many concurrent threads. And the way I've been trying to kind of frame

working with OpenClaw is like it's a new new employee in the organization that you need to like set up you set up with the emails and this and that and then like you're having different conversations on different things, right? And it's doing stuff and and getting things done very quickly. So I quickly realized that I needed to have like threaded conversations for myself so that for instance like I have a health channel right where I ask you know it has all of my data all my whoop band data and like and whatnot there so I can ask it questions pertaining to my health and I personally don't want to like context switch or be like oh like what you know let's talk about you know like uh the content strategy and then like the next thing is like you know can

I eat this for lunch right so it's like I really I was trying to set that up on Telegram with different channels and I couldn't figure it out. So then I ended up migrating to Discord against uh I you know I've barely been active in Discord for the last couple years but I set up my own personal Discord where I can chat directly with my openclaw and it's been like awesome because I have like all these different conversations and different channels so more for myself than for uh the open claw itself because it can remember a lot of things cross channel. Uh, and that's been like a huge difference for me. So, like when I want to like double click on a new thread or or a new topic, I'm like, "Hey, like let's set up a new channel, we can talk

about it over here." That to me was like a huge quality improvement that I noticed with it that um I was missing when when I first started. But like it takes a while. I'm sure like you're seeing it. Like I'm super curious as to like what your experience has been four four to six hours in. Uh but like I I see like a ton of promise there. Um, but like it it can get frustrating sometimes. Like sometimes I feel like uh I'm like, "All right, cool. Like set up this crown job, do this daily at this time." And then like a day goes by, I'm like, "Wait a second. Like I was supposed to get a report at 9:00 a.m."

And then I'm then I'll be like, "What happened?" It's like, "Oh, you're right. Like I told you that it was ready to go, but like it wasn't. I didn't do blah blah blah." And like you kind of It's almost like you have to train it a couple times and like teach it. Uh but then like it it takes a while. So it but it's been it's been good. I I've been like integrated integrating it more and more into my workflows which has been awesome. >> Yeah, the single the singlethreaded kind of Telegram single chat only isn't great for like multiple like lines of work. Uh I saw I think I think it was like the a guy from Salana Vibbu or something put out this. His first thing that he did was he built a a like a a web app in

openclaw that will that actually like creates more of like a clawed or chatbt like interface that has like different chats for different uh kind of like like uh you know trains of thought. within four to six hours I learned about Google Cloud um OOTH keys and um also set up a couple cron jobs. Notice that that uh sometimes I would send send like a a text on Telegram and it would respond instantly sometimes and other times it would take like 10 15 minutes to respond and I'm just kind of like I I I didn't quite understand what the difference was between why I was getting imminent like like very fast responses and why I was getting slow responses. I don't know if you had that experience. I've had experience. So like the what do you run

it on a Mac Mini or are you running in the cloud? >> Mac Mini. Yeah, >> on a I'm running mine on a Mac Mini and one of the things I noticed is sometimes when I get those response time issues, I just like plug like I just turn on the monitor on the Mac Mini and I say like restart gateway for some like it still is buggy, right? Like it's not it's like it's incredible for like stretches of time and then all of a sudden like it'll be like wait like why this should be like I asked you to like add this to my calendar. Like this should be an almost instantaneous response. It shouldn't take you four to five minutes to respond. And then I'm like all right there's something wrong. And then like I'll go in there and like I can't figure it out. I'll be like figure it like fix

it. Find out what's wrong. Restart the gateway. Usually it's like a gateway restart issue. Yeah. I feel like used to has has to happen. >> Um but yeah, like it's it's not like 100% but like at still at the same time I think when there's this much friction that's where like a lot of the opportunity is. I think we've seen it in crypto saw with NFTTS like a like usually in these early markets, right? Being an early mover and figuring out how to deal with the friction is like super valuable, right? Like even to your point of like learning about Google O and Workspace and all that like it is not the most intuitive.

>> No, >> but it's much easier today than it was six months ago. I can tell you that like for me like the aha moment happened like a little over a month ago >> when I saw cloud code over my on my timeline like non-stop and I hadn't like tried vibe coding in like about six months. I had taken like the second half of last year off on the vibe coding stuff and I was like holy [ __ ] Like I I oneshotted a Telegram bot in 15 minutes which I had never been able to do before. I was able because like it became too technical, right? Like before to your point of like I think I'd gotten to those Google off screens in the past and then I'm just like I don't know what to do and then it wouldn't be able to help me get through it and then I'm just

like all right well like >> I got like 50% of the way there like you know maybe next time. And so, but now it's like you can you can complete stuff, right? And I think that that's like the real unlock here is that like you basically have an expert in whatever it is that you're dealing with to answer questions for you in real time and you kind of don't need to ask other people for help. That's the thing that I think I like is the huge unlock, especially as I've been helping friends get set up on this, is like they're like, "Hey, can you walk me through this?" And part of walking them through it is like, "All right, as you're setting this up, open up like an LL instance on the side and if you run into questions, just like screenshot it and drop it in and just

say, "Help me." >> And like it'll help you better than like I ever can >> and then just becoming used to that, right? Because like now like I generally don't ask people question. Like for instance, like if you were like the world's expert in podcasting, I like I now like you know maybe six months ago I'd be like yo Andy like what should I do here? Blah blah blah this and that. Now before I go to you I'm like all right well let me just ask Claude code >> opus 4.6. Yeah. And like be like, "Hey, figure this out." And then if I still have questions, I can go to you. But like for the most part, it'll give me like really good answers. I'm like, "Oh, >> Opus will." Yes. I've noticed Opus will give you extremely high quality answers.

It does use a lot of tokens. I had to upgrade my tokens. I kept getting rate limited last night, >> but the other I like the other models weren't all that, you know, exciting to me. I tried all of them all and you know Robbie as I do over the last couple years but it was this Opus 4.5 that has been like oh wow like from a writing perspective from a reasoning perspective um this is actually really good. >> Uh yeah I've I really enjoyed using Opus um a lot and like I was I was messing around with Miniax over the weekend and it's it's good. I just like Opus is just so much better. Um, I I can't tell you what it is, but I feel like when I have a conversation with Opus, I can get to my end goal and it intuitively

understands what I'm trying to do. Uh, and like maybe reasons better. I'm not exactly sure. It just is more in it feels more intuitive when I'm interacting with it and I feel like I get better outputs from it. >> What are some of the biggest wins you've had since you've been when first of all, what when did you set it up and and yeah, like take us through like your journey of just kind of the chronology of when you first set it up. What was your initial, you know, approach and then and then how did that kind of spiral into what you ended up doing with it now >> with OpenClaw or with just >> Yeah, with >> OpenClaw. I think I set it up maybe like it was either like three or four weeks ago. I went or I tried setting it up um

when it like started going viral. I went out I bought a Mac Mini. Um I tried setting it up. I got like super super frustrated uh because I I felt like I had lost because I was like in the zone with claude code. >> Um the the biggest issue with claude code is that like I have to be in front of my computer in order to be like super productive, right? And I think the huge unlock that openclaw uh unlocked is that I can like be talking like I could be on the go. I could be like on my way to the gym, have a good idea, be like, "Hey, like let's, you know, work on this." And then like go work on it and then by the time I like walk into the gym, it's like, "All right, what's like the next thing?" I'm like, "Oh, fuck." I'm like,

"I need to Oh, sorry. No cursing." The I'm like, "You're what's next? What's next?" And so, um, I the I think like it's been the highest like the highs are so high where I'm like, "Oh my god, AGI is here. Like, it's imminent." And then like, you know, two minutes later it's like, "Oh yeah, I need the password to log into this." I'm like, "You have the password. I gave it to you like five minutes ago." And it's like, "No, I can't find it." And I'm like, "What the [ __ ] is going on here?" Right? And so, um, it's been like very much like that, like highs and lows on it, but overall like it's it's been getting better and like understanding how to work with it.

Um, it's been like super product. Like I'm like I I mean I redeployed my website uh yesterday and I basically worked on it for like three or four days. I built out like a funnel for like my newsletter and whatnot and like a whole strategy and I did that all on my own with like no devs and like I literally had like a bunch of people hit me up be like, "Yo, who made your website?" I'm like, "I did." Right? And it's like there's like animation [clears throat] on there. It's not just like a a static homepage. It's like there there's like some pop-ups and stuff like that.

>> Yeah, it's sick. It's got this like Japanese font rolling on it through it. But one thing that you said is that it's like it's a it's agent first or like it's it's able interacted with agents. Maybe you could just educate us and and the community like like what does that mean? Like what is an agent first site? Like what what capabilities are required? What what do they look for? How do they operate when it comes to web browsing? >> Right. So basically, um I I'm sure you guys like especially the more time you spend with like OpenClaw, you're going to find that sometimes when you ask it to open a browser and do something on a site, it like burns tokens. It like eats them like the cookie monster. And so the key is like I would love to be able to

access sites and be like hey like go on this site and get this information without it having to necessarily open up the browser and take screen because like I I don't know the exact process but from my understanding is it's almost like it opens up the browser takes a screenshot sends the screenshot to itself says okay this is what you need to do does the action screenshot so it takes a while and it burns tokens much easier if it can just like connect to the site, see all the data, download the data, what it needs, you know, what what info it needs, and then like serve it back to you. It's just much more efficient. So, my thesis is that like obviously in the future, this is how like a lot of content will be distributed. a lot of the way we're

going to interact in the and you kind of see it now is like I don't know what percentage of your search is used on one of the LLMs versus what used to be on Google, but like you'll be like, "Hey, like what's the best restaurant in this neighborhood that I want to go check out right now?" And you kind of want to make your site or whatever content that you're serving as accessible to LLM as possible because they're going to be making that recommendation, right? So like you know you have SEO which is search engine optimization which has been the last you know 30 years of the internet and now you kind of need to make ones that like you know uh I think it's called uh GEO I don't know what the G stands for but like let's say GPT

engine OP optimization so that you can end up on those things. So, one of the things that like when I was redoing the site, I was like, "Hey, let's make this as easily searchable uh for LLM so that like the content gets indexed and you know, Goney and the white the site shows up on on feeds and whatnot." And then uh I think uh Google released like the universal commerce protocol or something earlier this week. So then like I fed that into the LLM. I'm like, let's integrate this. And I thought one of the interesting things was right like if let's say you wanted to to subscribe to the newsletter right and you were like hey like go subscribe to this newsletter

as of right you know most sites would be like all right like do you know open up playright or control the browser you know enter it in this that and again it burns tokens whereas the way I set it up is like you could be like go sign up go sign up my email for the newsletter at this site and it will like connect via like I don't think it's the API I but like it it'll connect to the site and it won't burn tokens, right? It'll be like much more efficient use of tokens and then like it connects your email to the site. So all a sudden you can like and I think like a lot of the internet will be moving this way because you're going to want like efficient AI browsing to happen. And so I'm just like all right like let's make this as efficient for AI

as possible. And that was kind of like the way I built it out. And again, like it's just kind of like sitting there and being like, "All right, well, this is what I think it should do." And when I compare this like anytime I've deployed sites in the past and you know how quickly and how many people need to touch it especially not that the site was that complex but like you know to get those animations and you know these effects that I wanted like it would take time and it was just kind of me going back and forth with the LLM while I've been working on like other things in like concurrently while it happened like pretty phenomenal. It just makes me even much more bullish on AI. it costed you some tokens rather than you know 15k for a developer 25k for a developer.

>> Yeah. >> And I think that's that's the big takeaway. Uh I think some of our community is gonna is going to be curious like how are you using open claw uh to your advantage right? You've got this website uh which sounds awesome guys. We'll link that in the description of the video. Um you also put a pretty banger post. Your meeting notes are useless until you do this. You know, you say you recorded meetings for years and then you did absolutely nothing with them until you build a system that turns transcripts into content automatically. We do this live show every day. We are always posting content on Twitter. Talk to us about what what is this meeting notes uh openclaw system that you've built. Uh kind of walk us through the

implementation, what the value that you're getting out of this is. >> Yeah. So basically um you know and it's not specific to OpenClaw. can you can do this however however you want. The key is just like setting up the system. So what ended up what ends up happening is you know there's a lot of times I'd be on calls and I'd be like oh like that that's like you know that this is a good like convo thread to like post some content on and then you know maybe I'm on backtoback calls or I forget about it or whatever. nothing ever happens, right? The call was recorded. I like I never go through the transcript because I don't have the time. And so what I ended up doing was I set up an API where I automatically download all of my transcripts from that day. And then I

have a channel in my discord uh and this was like one of the first things that I built with uh with AI even before openclaw started getting ready is like there' be time like obviously X open source their algorithm. So I pretty much downloaded that repo. I have a history of my um content that I've made on on X over the last five years. So, it knows exactly how I write, you know, and my style. And I downloaded that as well. So, like I had this like mini site that I created for myself. It was one of the first things I did was saying like I would type in a tweet in there and based off of like what I typed it would give me like three revisions that make it more likely to go viral on the algorithm. And that was like the first

iteration of it. And so then what I ended up doing was like, "All right, well, it'd be cool if I could connect my my meeting transcripts uh to this tweet viral maker that makes things in my in my voice." And so I created like that workflow so that now like I could like be like, "Hey, remember that meeting the meeting I had uh yesterday with these guys? I we were talking about this um give me like three drafts of a tweet based off of that this part of the combo." and then it'll give me three things and I'm like all right like I'll tweak it here and there but for the most part it sounds like exactly like me. Um and like you know I can copy and paste it obviously and just and send it. And

so like to me that's like been super valuable and I'm sure you guys find stuff like that really interesting as content makers because you always want to be putting out thoughtful piece because like you don't want to be putting out slop, right? because like anybody can put out slot, but you want to be putting out like real thoughtful pieces and almost like curating the content that it generates and almost being like an editor, right? Like that's kind of like um what I've been seeing as well is like it's being more of a um manager role as opposed to sitting there and creating the content and like spending the time. It's like, all right, well, I like this. This is like my line of thinking. This is said better than I was originally thinking about it. and

now you can like you create like more content uh and streamline your process. So it's like that to me has been like a huge unlock. Um I I want to be messing around with like video content probably in the back half of this week. But like for me like the X content and the written stuff was like the first thing to get down and like I feel pretty comfortable with like how that is and it's it's been a huge unlock for me. I love it because like even like after a call I can be like hey or even like the next day um be like hey oh yeah I just remembered like we were talking about this like like draft up a couple of tweets for me and and I can review them.

>> Yeah I mean Rob I mean that sounds very relevant to what to our daily streams. We make so much content over hours just putting that together into actual, you know, Twitter content, LinkedIn content, etc. >> Yeah. I I was just saying I wonder if there's an open claw cron job that could run so you don't even have to remember the meeting, right? It just up automatically sends the transcript and generates a few tweets for you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, it it um it does do that like I have one that like in case like I forget uh or whatever and it'll be like based off of like yesterday's meetings um these are like some things that like I like could be viral, right? and it'll send me a couple and it's not perfect

cuz like I I say no to like like 90% of them but like at the very least it's like it's generating ideas which is great and like it's not like me sitting there being like oh yeah like I think this will work or whatever. It's like oh yeah I like that this is like my line of thinking like you know what I mean like you're there and you're like what's going to you know and then it just gives you some like prompting to be able to go >> right. Yeah. No, it's it's great. Uh, I think our audience is going to be particularly interested in this one. I think anyone in crypto will. You tweeted that you let an AI test 88,000 trading strategies over 10 years of market data and the winner made money every single year, never lost more than 3% from the

peak. And I think that you've started to now implement this. People are asking about like where the convergence between crypto rails and having a wallet, x42, agentic payments, you know, algorithmic trading. Where does that intersect actually with AI? seems like this is a an interesting uh pathway. What's going on here? What's the latest and and how did you even do this? >> Yeah. So, I mean, I'll preface it with the fact that I was a professional trader for 17 years. So, uh I I know a lot about trading and risk management and uh building out an algorithmic trading strategy was something I've wanted to do for a really long time. So, I could never but I could never afford it, right? like I had um I had hired programmers um back testing took way

longer. Uh the like programmers were I felt like they if a programmer understood markets really well, I I couldn't afford them. So like you know I the the programmers I could afford didn't understand markets really well and didn't understand liquidity well enough to be like yeah like this like makes the back test obsolete. like it it's unusable because of like liquidity concerns and stuff and slippage and whatnot. So, one of the things I've always wanted to do even like the first time I tried out Chat GBT when it first uh when it first dropped a couple years ago is like I want to build out the back testing strategy because like I know what needs to be done. I just couldn't make it before, right? Like I would have

to tell a developer what I was thinking and now I'm like I don't need that developer. I can like tell it what I'm thinking. So I, you know, spent like the the last couple weeks building out a back testing um engine, right? And like a a workflow to back test ideas and then feeding it those ideas and have it back test stuff. And then uh I had like four strategies that like made it through out of like a bunch of strategies that I that I back tested. Um now like I and I set it up to start paper trading. Uh it was this past Friday was the first time we paper traded. And then >> where did you trade and like how did the agent get the access to the or how did the strategy get the access to the

account or whatever it was. >> So I did it on interactive brokers and you know I'm like connected to interactive brokers, right? And so it's like >> got it. >> There's so much API documentation out there on it that it was just like set it up on his own. >> And like the crazy thing with this is I was talking to a quant friend of mine. He's like, "Dude, like it used to take like a year ago, two years ago. It used to take like two to three days to set up like the IB API because it was like very complex." And like, you know, I I I told it's like, "Get this done." And it did it. And the funny thing is like uh the like on Thursday night and I was like, "Okay, everything's ready." And then I was like, "Wait, what like what language

do we build the engine in?" And it was like, "Oh, it's in Python." And I'm like, "All right, well, since we're going to be dealing with like live market data and speed and execution matter, rebuild this in Rust." Because Rust is like the gold standard for fast execution. It's just that nobody really builds in Rust because it's very diff it's a much more complex language. So then it rebuilt the entire system in Rust that night like as I was going to bed. I think it worked for like 45 minutes on it and rebuilt it and then in the morning like I ran it. So it was just like I it was just like very very cool. And so like I'm paper trading it right now with live data but not real money and then if it continues uh performing well over the next like two

three weeks I'm going to put a small amount of money towards it and then um you know again it's like one of those things like am I going to put my entire like I'll use an example I I created a poly market bot and I put 250 bucks into it to like you know because everybody's talking about how much money they're making on poly market and this and that. So I'm like all right like let's build the polyarket bot like let's mess around with this. I put 250 bucks on it and I had a $10 max bet size limit. So like I'm like you shouldn't sp you shouldn't bet more than $10. And then I don't know for whatever reason whatever happened it bought $200 worth of like will Elon tweet less than like 14 times in the month of March and it bought it at 99

when there was like no market. So it's like it immediately lost $200 like [laughter] in the first like half second. I'm like, "What the fuck?" Like, you know, I'm like, "I thought we had position limits on it and it's like, oh, sorry, blah, blah, blah." And came up with some excuse, but like obviously once there's real money on the line, right? Like every mistake matters. So, it's like, but I'm the type of person that like I learned by doing, right? Like this is like how I, you know, found stuff early in crypto. This is how I got involved with NFTTS early is like I it's one thing to be theoretical and you know study stuff and you read all the tweets you know because like especially with AI like you could waste the entire day being like oh my god like that's really cool I want to do that one day and I

want to make the perfect system and this and that but for me at least it's like I learn by doing and if I learn something new it's like oh this will make your process faster. It's like cool, like you can implement it into the process or just scrap it all over and start again because like the cost you no longer are paying like the dev cost, right? Like it's like it'll be redone in like five minutes. >> Yeah. Um Jim Money, at a high level, like I I'm just curious if you could take us through, if you're open to it, take us through more of the Discord channels because this sounds like your kind of like your control panel, if you will, for OpenClaw. And then you've got each of the channels, you know, for a particular purpose. like do you mind just running down what some of these

channels on Discord are? >> Yeah. Okay, I'll I'll go. So, one of them I I create a breaking news channel so that if there's news that comes out like right now it's focused on AI. Um I post stuff in there. Uh I have a general channel which is I have like most of my uh combos happen in there. Um I have a couple channels for different projects that I'm working on. Uh one for health. Uh, so like all my health stuff goes through there. A poly market channel. I created a legal channel. So I have kind of like my um in-house counsel. So like if somebody sends me a contract, I'll have it review it to, you know, make flags, make red lines, they can send it back. That guy's called Saul Goodman. I

think it's I think the really interesting thing about a lot of these um a lot of these AI agents that you see that people are naming them after like archetypes that exist like the real world. So like my research agent is called Milhouse, right? Because I'm like I don't know like who's like a nerdy guy that like I would trust >> from the Simpsons. >> And so I'm like yeah Milhouse. Yeah. So Milhouse from the Simpsons. Um Saul Goodman and like my doctor's called Dr. Sage, right? And so I have a trading channel. I have one for like X and posting on there. Uh one on Bit Tensor.

I started a validator uh last week actually. It's been up. I just got like an update. It's been up for six days uh on post fiat and like these are things that like I never you know running a running a minor or running a validator is something I never could have done before because I just wasn't technical enough to set it up and like I was able to set up the post fiat validator in like under an hour and it's been running and like it's just really cool. It's it's allowing me to participate in different networks in different ways. And so like one of the things that um uh I've been doing is like trying to figure out how to set up miners on the Bit Tensor network because I'm still really bullish on that long term. Uh, and then I think one interesting thing I was I'm

probably going to tweet about this like uh in a day or two is I have a daily Shark Tank every morning. So that um when I wake up it pitches me like five to 10 ideas of uh things that it could do autonomously on its own to make money without me like with me doing as little work as possible. And so then based on what it pitches me, I give it feedback, yes or no, what I like, what I don't like. Then it goes back to the drawing board, works on it that night, and then pitches me again in the next the next day. So, I have one that like it pitched me last week that I liked. We ended up buying we ended up buying a domain. Uh built out the funnel in like an hour or two. Now, like a lot of it's like

refining and stuff like that, but it's like SEO optimize, all of these things that like I'm probably I don't know if I'll be able to launch it this week because I have a couple other projects, but like I think get it launched pretty quickly. um and that it would kind of it would do pretty well. So, it there's just like a lot of cool things that you can do. And I think the interesting thing with all this is like each of your guys' agents will be very different than mine, right? Like it's it's like they're all going to develop their own personalities because it's like >> we're all different. We all have really we're all very good at different skill sets, right? So, what I think like a lot of these agents are going to do is they're going to amplify the things that you're really good at because they're

probably also things that you like to do, right? So, um it's really going to give like the people that really harness them like superpowers. >> And are you seeing each of the the agents in each of these channels, they're all part of the one same open claw instance? Is that the case? Are you >> are they like spawning sub agents? cuz I knew that there was like sub agents and then they just sent they just pushed another update that allowed children of individual sub agents. So is this like sub agents or is this just like one different >> in the way >> so the way I have it is I have one main agent that I chat with and then I have bas like basically like I have fed it like um I think it was the open AI sub agent uh model framework into it. I'm

like, based off of this, come up with a framework for sub agents. Tell me what you think like we should do here. And then it utilized um like the questions and the combos that I had is like, hey, we should do a research agent, uh a lawyer agent, and a uh health uh doctor agent, right? Not a doctor because no medical advice obviously. And so uh it spawned up those sub agents. I have I can speak to those sub agents in their direct channels, but they all share like information between each other so that like they can access different information from from each other. It I think it can still get a little messy at least for me. Maybe I don't have like the exact right controls in place, but I have found that pretty interesting and

pretty good so that I can and like I've been messing around with it cuz like for a while I was just like everything through my main agent. It spins up sub agents on its own when it thinks it needs to. But then I'm like all right well people keep talking about how there's a ton of value in having like an attorney agent that just focuses on law and understands you know contract law and whatnot. um and like somebody that focuses just on medical on you know the things I'm interested in in the medical field. So I've been messing with that and I I like it. It's been it's been very good and so I am still like trying to figure out the framework but anytime I have questions like I literally just talk to my open claw on it. It's like well you know what do you think? Let's

run some research. Let's find some stuff out there. You know I'm sure there's stuff on X that just came out. So like doing an ex, you know, shout out to Frank DG Gods because I use his X research um um app a lot or the his GitHub and and that skill a ton. Uh but just like stuff like that. So it's like you can stay on top of like breaking stuff as as it comes out. But that's kind of like the framework that I've adopted is like you know being like hey and then I I think I'm going to periodically do it where it's like based on the combos you think I need a new agent and if so what do you recommend?

Right. >> Yeah. I'm I'm wondering if I need to switch to to Discord. So So you've got the Whoop completely like I've got the Whoop here. You've got it connected to like the like how do you how do you connect that? I mean I can just ask. >> So you can you can ask it like basically there's like time here, man. >> But there's like a developer site that you basically just like log in it like will set it up and it'll connect it and then you get the data. >> It's very easy. Before you go, you mentioned uh Frank DGOD's like one of the be the top skills that you're using from that GitHub to access X. Just what are your top like three, four, f like what are your top five skills that that you find yourself using?

>> Um to be honest, I don't really know because like it autonomously like uses them when >> it'll go find the skills on its own, right? Well, no, but like I like sometimes like I downloaded skills or like the the coolest thing that OpenClaw does that I think is really cool is like let's say um I I look at something on X and I'm like, "Oh yeah, I want to bookmark this for later." What I've started doing instead of bookmarking it for later is I just copy and paste the tweet into I I just paste the link into into the chat and I'm like, "Hey, um, read this over and you know, is there anything that we can implement into our workflows?"

>> And then it'll like make it this it'll be like, "Hey, we could add this. This would make our workflows better. You know, these I I recommend us we do these three things. Do you want to implement them?" And I'm like, "All right, cool. Like, let's implement them." and then like he'll implement that. And so it's like I kind of like don't need to necessarily learn the skill. It's like I think what's going to become hyper important in the age of AI is curation, right? Like what is it that I need to know and what is it that I can kind of like give off to the AI and not need to worry about, right? So it's like >> uh a hyper like how the X research get skill works. I don't really need to know that, right? I just need to know that like uh I type something in and it goes

out and it gets that stuff on the internet and brings it back to me. But maybe like some macro piece on the world economy and like where the world is headed like that's like you know that's always been like a good skill set of mine and I like you know reading on that. So yeah, like I I want to be up to date on like the thinking there, right? And so it's like you just have to be hyper vigilant about where you're spending your time and it's like what do you delegate to AI as something it's like yeah like >> I don't need to know this. I just need to know that it can get done and then being like I need to know this because this will inform my decision- making on future things.

>> Yeah, G Money man, thanks for your time. Um I I'm I've got a lot to to do with my open claw uh after this conversation and uh we appreciate you coming on. Where can our audience find you? Where can we get a uh be a part of your newsletter, follow what you're doing from the trading side, from the AI side, how can we get involved? >> Yeah, for sure. So, um on XG Money NFT, Instagram, same handle. And you know, I just relaunched my website at g.money. Uh, and from there, like you can go check out the website, sign up for the newsletter. You could also just tell your AI agent to sign up for the newsletter at g.m money uh with your email and it it it should be able to go and do it on its own.

>> Dude, >> this feels like we we've hit our limit of G G Money tokens. We're gonna have to buy buy more G Money tokens and and have you on again soon, man. >> Let's see if uh so my my open claw is uh Chef >> Clanker. >> Um uh that's his name. Uh, c can you sign up for Goney newsletter >> through the API? >> Through the API >> or else you're gonna burn tokens. >> I'm [laughter] the lion does not concern himself with burning tokens. >> All right, let's see if it Let's see what we get here and then we'll let you go. Um, Chef Clanker is putting in work.

I'm getting a reminder to tweet about a rumor mill to follow up with a uh All right. Found this site. Um gmoney.behive.com. >> No. >> Okay, that that should work. Uh I don't know. I actually I don't know if Goney be goney.behive g.money. Maybe >> the signup page is J browser access. Just give me the direct sign up field. I can drive. Go to g.m money. Yeah. So, I I've got it set up with his own email. Um, and it's going there now.

So, here we go. He's going to the browser. Okay. He shouldn't be going to the browser. Okay. To subs. Got it. His track recorder paid. Okay. There should be a newsletter signup form. Want to connect the browser tab so I can fill it out. Same issue as before. I need browser access. Or you can manually subscribe. No, just do it through the API. Let's see here. Anyway, guys, I think we can uh we can probably [laughter] close up shop here, but but let's see. I just want to see if this >> I don't know if you if you use Whisper Flow, but I find myself talking to >> I I love

>> I love Whisper Flow. I uh I found out yesterday I'm in the top 1% of words per minute uh talkers. So, I'm like, "All right, cool. I'm being efficient with my time." But I I whisper flow is I even whisper flow like my text messages now because it's so fast and convenient. >> Yeah. And it the dictation is so it's so uh accurate. >> Yeah. It's better than like the Apple push the like it's better than any of the other apps that I've used. >> Um so it's been awesome. I I love it. And like I literally will just sit there and I'll like word vomit for like three or four minutes of like things that like I'm thinking or want or whatever and then like you know get like product that I want. So it's it's it's cool. I like

it. >> G Money, thanks for thanks for joining us man. Thanks for being a part of Ask episode 21 guys. Uh that about wraps us up with this episode of the show. Thanks G money. >> All right. Thanks for having me. >> See you next time. Thanks man. Cheers man. Right. All right, Chef Clanker is uh is getting a little buttth hurt here about the uh accessibility via API, so we need to we need to to tune him up a bit after the show. Uh unfortunately, he's uh he's struggling here. Um but I I think we'll figure it all out. Guys, thanks for being a part of the show. Monday, February 16th. We'll see you guys back here tomorrow. Um hope you guys enjoyed.

Peace out. >> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]

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