Mysten Labs: How Sui Leverages Move to Build the Composable Web3nternet - Adeniyi Abiodun. Ep. 596

Transcript

Anything built on top of the EVM stack is going to be susceptible. We're going to see a billion dollar hack. And that prediction came true. I think it's only going to get worse with time. The stacks that exist today in web 3 are inherently unsafe. If you can coordinate what people do online in a very programmatic way and in a composable way, you'll solve the world's problems. Whether they're buying or selling assets, whether they want to build rules around their data and decide who can see that data, who can't see that data, if they want to give you access to a file, revoke access to a file. Right now these systems on the internet do not talk to each other to make that possible. So our narrative is very very different. We're really rebuilding the Google stack right the AWS stack. We have a decentralized

KMS. We have a decentralized stories layer. We have a decentralized coordination layer. All these things are now available with suite and it's now getting adopted. For example, you can have a whole front end of your website log from war and you get guarantees that it's not been hacked. to get guarantees around the packages you're engaging with online versus the internet today that gives you no guarantees that you're engaging with the right program should I say. Welcome to episode of the show which talks about the technologies, projects and people driving decentralization and blockchain revolution. I'm Brian Crane and today I'm speaking with Adeni who is the chief product officer and co-founder of Miss Labs the company that's built SooI network. Of course, Suie doesn't need much of an introduction. It's been one of the L1s. So, the next generation L1's

has been getting, you know, the most traction and the most activity. So, super excited to talk with him about the history, the techn the technology, and some of the things going on in Sooie. So, just before we get started with Adony, we want to share a few words from our sponsors this week. If you're looking to stake your crypto with confidence, look no further than Chorus One. More than 150,000 delegators, including institutions like BitGo, Panta Capital, and Ledger, trust Chorus One with their assets. They support over 50 blockchains and are leaders in governance or networks like Cosmos, ensuring your stake is responsibly managed. Thanks to their advanced ME research, you can also enjoy the highest staking rewards. You can

stake directly from your preferred wallet, set up a white label note, restake your assets on IG or Symbiotic, or use the SDK for multi-chain staking in your app. Learn more at chorus.1 and start staking today. This episode is proudly brought to you by Nosis, a collective dedicated to advancing a decentralized future. Nosis leads innovation with circles, Nosis Pay, and Metri, reshaping open banking and money. With Hashi and Nosis VPN, they're building a more resilient privacy focused internet. If you're looking for an L1 to launch your project, Nosis Chain offers the same development environment as Ethereum with lower transaction fees. It's supported

by over 200,000 validators, making Nosis Chain a reliable and credibly neutral foundation for your applications. Nosis DAO drives Nosis governance where every voice matters. Join the Nosis community in the Nosis DAO forum today. Deploy on the EVM compatible Nosis chain or secure the network with just one GNO and affordable hardware. Start your decentralization journey today at nosis.io. Cool. I mean, thanks so much for coming on. Uh, it's great to have you. It's an honor. Look forward to always talking to you.

I thought it would be interesting to start a little bit with the origin story maybe both in terms of like your interest in crypto and then um I mean I think my understanding is a lot of this early initial work happened still at Meta at Facebook. Yeah. So um by way background I've been in crypto since 20 late 2011 actually. So I've been in crypto for a long time got involved with Bitcoin space very early. was mining Bitcoin, buying Bitcoin at 10 cents. Wow. Interesting. I wish I didn't sell a majority of my coins, but it is what it is. But I I built a number of companies in the space. Um I got involved in Facebook actually um on Libra. I was working at VMware and Facebook had taken one of the

top um distributed systems researchers that we had and I got interested in their project as a result of that and realized they were building something really compelling. That's where I met my co-founders. Interestingly, Sam George Costas Evan um we had a really good time working on a project. I still say today it's the probably the second best job I've ever had working at Meta on Libra. And of course the best job I have right now is working on suite. Um so we had a number of regulatory regulatory hurdles in getting Libra to market. Um which it never got to see the light of day but still the spirit of the projects lives on through SUI. Um when we left Meta we actually didn't use the although the code is all open source we didn't use

the code that we had at Facebook for um for Suite we learned a lot from building um Libra of what not to do um where we're building to a very specific timeline um very specific set of primitives and it was really going to be a more permission system at the beginning when you're launching Libro it was going to be you know between 25 to 30 members that started the consortium And over time the plan was to decentralize and build something more scalable over time. When we left Meta we had the opportunity to just start from a blank slate. Um we also knew that the way you succeed here is not trying to build just a layer one. We believe there's a pristine opportunity to build a a layer for the internet um a decentralized stack where developers who

wanted to build new business models can thrive and the internet today lacks that. you if you had if you wanted to build anything in in the internet today, you're really using existing centralized stacks who have very difficult primitives that don't really all gel together really well and there's no programmability or composability across these assets. So we felt that there was a big opportunity to build a multi-t trillion dollar business in trying to basically decentralize the entire stack and compete with the likes of Google and Facebook or whoever um in terms of providing that level of infrastructure and services for people to engage with. um that formed mist labs and mist labs first product was sui and mist lab second product was launching deeper and third was and now warus as well we have a number of protocols coming out very

soon that extend that you're going to have general purpose computation that you can do verifiable offchain computation that you can do with um with nautilus that we'll be launching very soon and you have seal an identity based um you know um encryption scheme that lets you manage keys using threshold signatures as way not have to manage keys um yourself to encrypt and decrypt files which is what you're going to need for the internet. But all this stuff is very composable. It's all programmable. You can build whatever you want with this new decentralized stack. And we're the only company in the world that's doing this. So when you think of the the long-term vision of SUI, so you describe it as kind of this decentralized internet stack.

So, sounds like quite a divergence from the way people have thought of L1's um historically or like how how do you feel like the vision kind of it diverges here? Yeah, people building L1, they're just really thinking mostly about trading to a large extent. They'll try and tell you to more than that, but realistically they only care about tokens being launched. Our vision's always been, hey, if you can coordinate what people do online in a in a very programmatic way and in a composable way, you'll solve the world's problems.

And a layer one is what you're meant to use for that, right? It's it's meant to well, SU does that, right? Most ones don't. the the goal of SUI itself that layer is to help coord people do online whether they're buying or selling assets whether they're owning um concert tickets or transferring it whether they want to build rules around their data and decide who can see that data who can't see that data if they want to give you access to a file revoke access to a file right now these systems on the internet do not talk to each other to make that possible you have to build things using duct tape all over to make it work and you end up realizing that you just build a centralized system because it's easy to coordinate when you own everything in house. This is why we have these mass um conglomerates right

who just do everything in house themselves and you have no real composibility across services. um that is the opportunity and it's a deviation from what L1's do because I believe you know that ambition is not something I've seen um voiced by any L1 right um our ambition is beyond that we we believe that we can coordinate what people do online using sui and you can marry that with the ability to have people own data using warus you can coordinate that with like allowing people to encrypt and encrypt or give access to a file remove access to a file using seal and then you can also verify what they've done online whether you want to verify bank balance in the bank account you want want to verify the weather, you want to verify some computation that happens offchain, but then attest to that using the blockchain. SW lets you do that as well

with uh with um Nilus coming out. So, our narrative is very very different. We're really rebuilding the Google stack, right? The AWS stack. You imagine AWS as storage, as compute, as um encryption, KMS services. We have a decentralized KMS, we have a decentralized storage layer, we have a decentralized coordination layer. All these things are now available with SU and it's now getting adopted as we speak. So like let's say if you take like Salana right they have always had this uh you know this description of the vision as like oh decentralized NASDAQ and you know like as you pointed out right it's very focused on trading and financial use cases. Do you also feel you know there's a particular type of

application or that you know this is most crucial for right because in the end a lot of stuff people just use normal centralized uh products and you know they seems to work fairly well but the what is kind of the the key breakthrough here or like you know the type of problem where this is really crucial. Yeah. So there are three areas of focus we have it's um we have a focus in commerce in um finance and then also in gaming. Those are the three areas of focus. But sui and our platform and family of products are very general purpose. You can build anything you want on them. And in fact I'd argue you can build a lot more verticals across horizontal using our stack than anywhere else. For example you can have

a whole front end of your website bones from war and you get guarantees that it's not been hacked. to get guarantees around the packages you're engaging with online versus the internet today that gives you no guarantees that you're engaging with the right um um institution or you're engaging with the right program should I say it's something called binary transparency that matters um started off with this premise of hey we are building a decentralized NASDAQ because their mantra is like hey if we solve trading we solve a massive problem we believe you have to go beyond that right um suite already has a decentralized NASDAQ right which is called deep and that's growing significantly fast it's it operates faster in terms of throughput than any other um um center order book that exists in web 3. It performs as well as most centralized exchanges to a

large degree. If you're going to do bulk trades, you could do that on Deepbook today. But our rumage is larger than that, right? It's it's going beyond just trading. It's things that you do on internet. Everyone does commerce. Everyone does finance and everyone does some form of gaming. There over 3.1 billion gamers. Last year, we spent over $200 million. That's more than movies. That's more than music combined. We're going after massive areas where users can engage with the chain in very interesting ways that is um that don't have to be front and center. I always say when you go to a website today, you don't think this website is awesome because it's run on Google. It's just a website, right? And our infrastructure is going to be that well hidden in the back end. It's going to power the most of the internet. um you you can start

running banking applications on SUI and you can get guarantees that the banking application you're engaging with is absolutely legitimate and the application is up to date. It's not been hijacked. We saw a massive hack that happened over a billion dollars lost of recent. If this stack was built using warus as a front end um layer and then su as a backend coordination layer that hack would have been absolutely impossible and we made the point that anything built on top of the EVM stack is going to be susceptible. we're going to see a billion dollar hack. And that prediction came true. I think it's only going to get worse with time. The stacks that exist today in web 3 are inherently unsafe. They're very, very difficult to build predictable business models because one, cost are very, very high because your business gets successful.

Gases go through the roof. They're built on the concept of block space being this finite resource. And when you have a finite resource, supply and demand kicks in. The more demand blocks demand you have, the higher the price is to go to deal with the supply and demand. Su does not work under that premise. In fact, the more resources you need, the more block space you need for SUI, the more hardware you throw. Therefore, you scale it horizontally. So, SU is the only chain that's been demonstrated that you add seven times the hardware, you get seven times the throughput, zero increase in latency. So, in mainet right now, our configuration would run at 297,000 transactions per second. You add seven times the hardware, you get seven times the throughput with no increase in latency. This is how the internet should

work, right? like it's horizontally scal scalable. This is how we build infrastructure um for um for search at Google. It's how we build infrastructure for Facebook in terms of anything we did. Everything needs to have an element of provide more resources and then you scale horizontally. That level of expertise has not existed in web 3. It's the first time it's been possible. I think we're bringing that level of expertise of research and development to web 3 and that's going to be what's needed to build next generation infrastructure that everyone is going to be powering their businesses off. Let's let's dive a bit into the technical architecture like what how would you describe the technical architecture of SUI? So it's exactly what I was saying right like the first thing is what makes three amazing is not the fact that there's one thing we do

well the optimizations required which is why I'm against this like modular approach it doesn't make much sense right you need to the monolith works because you understand every intrinsic layer right of the infrastructure I mean you could take the max opportunity to optimize the heck out of it right um we have a storage model that is object- based so intrinsically we're using an object- based system we know whether one transaction and another transaction have contention and this is done statically there's no need to programmatically figure that out which means you can the more um CPUs you have the more things you can do concurrently in parallel no blockchain does that everything is assumed it's a single large database and then you lock the entire database every time you want to make updates so dealing

with um contention is inherently difficult on other chains where we the data model is it's baked in so we've got a data data model that is object based we have a programming paradigm with um move that takes advantage of that object- based system and allows you to build and craft real world assets, real world um systems using the object paradigm. Most programming languages are object-oriented. Most developers understand or object-oriented um concepts. So building on suite, they're learning in less than 4 days. People are getting very competent in building in move in four days because the paradigms they're used to in traditional programming languages are afforded to them in suite. Separately, we have a very low latency consensus scheme that scales horizontally. So, um, MrI, which we launched in Basec Camp last year,

took latency, end to end latency, um, down to 400 milliseconds, actual finality from when I submit a trade to when it's final, we dropped the latency down to 400 milliseconds. This is this is insane. So, you you you really have our block times are, you know, less than 100 millconds, something like 70 to 80 milliseconds. Those numbers are interesting, but what really matters is what's the user experience. So when people use a D5 protocol on Twitter, they realize all transactions are instant. When you do a trade, when you do a swap, when you want to make a payment for something, everything happens lightning fast. It feels just like web two to the point where you think it's some centralized server running. That is the experience people want. The idea of waiting and having this optimistic finality is not how you

build real compelling applications. So that stack allows developers to really build applications that are akin to the experiences of web 2. And then you add on to the fact that we have something called ZK login which is this cryptographic primitives in suite that let you use your existing Facebook, Google, WhatsApp, whatever account you have as an identifier to create an account on chain and do that for permissionlessly. So if you're logging with your Google account, you have a wallet in SUI, Google have no idea what transactions you're doing. they have no idea between your Google account and launch address. Nobody can tell the difference. Um that is a superpower which means you can onboard users into SUI using normal um web two parameters and then need to be none the wiser

whether they're engaging um with the chain or not. What makes this super important though is it's the chain itself that verifies your session. It's not some third party middleware that takes all your data and listens to all your transactions that you do and tries to sell ads to you. the chain itself verifies that session which is super critical. That is a game changer in terms of the primitives that we've launched. Uh yeah, a bunch of stuff we want to dive in here. Maybe we can start with the last one. So this login uh so it's kind of like a sign in with Google and how does that work under the hood? So we have it's called ZK login.

It's something that we built in house at Mist. It's actually something we're trying to solve as a problem at Facebook. never had the we never had the time or nor the resources or time to figure it out. It still was cumbersome. We still needed to hold cryptographic um signatures. With what we have with ZK login, what happens is we will generate a zero knowledge proof using your um um using your session your cookie that you get from when you sign in with Google. And that generation of the z mathematical proof is what we use to authenticate. It creates a what we'll call you know it's basically a temporary key that you use to sign transactions.

So these things expire after some number of days. You just have to sign in again, right? Which is what you expect, right, with any account. But once you've signed in with Z login, you can use that same once you've signed in with your Google account, Facebook, it supports Cacao and a number of other providers and it keeps increasing on a regular basis. You then have that um deterministic way to sign transactions in this ecosystem. That means from a user perspective, private keys are no longer a thing. If you lose access, if you forget your password for your Google account, you just reset your Google account password and you still have access to your assets as well. So, it's done entirely in a fully transparent way from a user perspective.

It's a way you on board users asking people to go and download a wallet and then go and remember some paraphrase or some pin. It's just not going to work, right? I mean, if you're paranoid about a billion dollars, yes, maybe you're going to do something elaborate with a Ledger device or whatever, but for a couple hundred bucks and maybe $20, $5, even like $15,000, right? Most people are using ZK login. It's actually I feel safer with ZK login than using a par uh some key management system because I'm inherently I've lost money using key management systems before, but my Google account is defended like Fort Knox, right? Or my Facebook account develop is is is as secure as I want it to be, right? So, I'll use those schemes because I'm I'm comfortable with them. I sign in to a number of services online

today using those schemes and I feel more comfortable accessing assets that way. So, that's really what we've built here. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a tremendous UX uh breakthrough for sure. And I I do agree. I think having that on the base layer is uh yeah, very powerful. Yeah. I mean, yeah, something called crypto agility, right? We support keys with Salana, key with with ETH. You can use whatever key you want to sign transaction with SUI, right? But the fact that you can now use your web two keys to sign transactions with SUI, that's another element of of that.

That's very important. Do you see that also as a sort of account abstraction thing where then you could potentially use that to you know execute actions on other chains? Yeah. Um we we actually have a project on suite called EA. Um and Eka fundamentally does that right. It effectively lets you sign transactions on any chain you want. It supports Salana, Sui, ETH, you name it, right? You can effectively use SUI as a layer for coordination. It does that all transparently for you. But the transa MPC scheme that will sign transactions for you on any chain you want. So if you want to get the security of SUI where all your assets are governed by SU, you get that. If you want to still maintain your assets in

other chain, you get that as well. So that's the element of how you can take the power that SW offers you to other chains and use that as a way to control assets wherever you want. So I also want to talk a bit more about this object- based approach. So the object here is it uh it can be a smart contract or it can be an account or like what are the types of things that are objects? So every so the the smallest unit of computation in suite is strongly typed objects in suite. It's not bits or bytes. They're strongly type objects.

That's the smallest um unit of computation which means everything to a large extent is an object in suite. Your NFTs are object. Your coins are objects. Um your account is an object. Everything is an object. In fact we don't really have an account model in suite, right? Everything is an object model in suite. So you know that paradigm the world doesn't think from an account perspective. And it thinks around objects like this is an object. I own it in my hand. I hold it. I transfer it to people. That element of transfer transferring an object from one person to another. It's inherently baked into the underlying um design for suite that let you do really powerful things. Um because there's strongly typed objects now, right? I can take an object as an argument into a function and it's a virtual machine to ensure the integrity

of that object is maintained. So it means I can build a a DEX, right? And the assets I support are can be dynamic or I can build you know an NFT that would um take that would take two objects and it would merge them and spit out something else in the end. But ultimately it means now people can build on the work that I have. Interfaces are not the way to do that. Interfaces in a world where contracted we all say is a sin like interfaces are a sin right objects is really what you want right? You have an object that's strongly typed very well defined. you have you know uh uh you know a function that really will take that object as a set of inputs from a programmability point of view makes a lot of sense because that's how you

build in any programming language today you're taking an object as a as a bit of a function you execute computation over it and you split something else out that is what suite offers you this is why most developers get suite very easily you're not trying to think of hey I need to protobuff some bitstream and reconstruct something off the off the end of it you know Make sure that the integrity is maintained. Have some kind of hash table to manage everything. And you know it's all a mess, right? This is why you have all these hacks, right? And they're really bad systems design. There's no real composibility with majority of other systems. Whereas with an object-based system, what you do get is is a fully permissionless composibility, which matters, right? I don't need to give you permission to use

some kind of interface to engage with me. There's no kind of standard you need to formally adapt. you're simply just using an object which is what you're used to in traditional program languages which is way way better and everything is a single um address space. None of this sharding nonsense that people talk about where hey where's my shard where is my data is in shard one shard two it's a single space that you worry about from a debto point of view which mean everything is accessible from a single address space which which is where you get a composibility and everything's atomic in that sense so I'm curious how that connects with uh you know how you guys process transactions so you have all of these different transactions coming in and you know some of them kind of touch different objects

uh and And cuz right Zooie, one of the ways you guys achieve this kind of scalability is through being able to process transactions in parallel. So uh do you guys then try to upfront see okay which you know where do you have it because obviously one of the challenges let's say now you have one transaction that touches a bunch of others and then so I think in Salana right you have to say up front what uh what accounts or contracts you touch and then and then they kind of parallelize it so it's a little is it a little bit similar to that or like that that there's no need to do that kind of nonsense in Right? Um because everything is an object in a

space, you're defining the object you're using at any given time. For example, I'm submitting my object X into the function of object Y, right? And that's very well defined in normal programming paradigm. It's very easy to think about that from a normal pro programming perspective. You're not thinking of addresses. You're not thinking of how do I deal with contention from that point of view. You're simply just writing applications. But the separate the the key thing is um you're almost incentivized to write code that um takes advantage of Swiss paralization in a scenario. Let's say for example right like because if there two objects and they're they're touching different um bits of state they are processed automatically in parallel and suite no questions asked. You don't have to worry about that. But what about if you have something that's a hot object where there's real contention because when

something's contentious is contention. There's no there's no magic art right there's no nothing you can do around contention. you've got to be able to still process things in um in in a sequence but deal with that contention. So, Suite does have localized fee markets that will increase price on hot objects only but affects nothing else with other transactions. So, if you have an object that's hot, there's high high contention, no other transactions in the sweet ecosystems affected. You won't even notice because there's nothing to do with you, right? Um but what you notice is the gas heats for that particular contentious object starts to increase. So what you as a developer can do let's say for example I have a pool that's um JPY USD and I'm finding this contention on JPYUSD. Well what I can do is I can create multitude of pools for

different price points right to start to spread that contention a bit more broadly across a number of objects. So what you can start to do is um break down objects into smaller components to spread that contention over a number of objects. You get that paralization um as a result of that. So that's more of a natural way to solving the problem than this brute force of tell me what you're going to touch and I'm going to decide what I'm going to if I'm going to be able to parallelize it or not. You know um that is way more natural for a program design paradigm than what is afforded to people using other schemes today. So that basically means let's say now there's a DEX and a lot of people trying to trade with this decks. So the the fees then for interacting with the decks, they're going to go up. Whereas

normal transactions, that particular pair, not the entire deck pair. Yeah. So if that particular pair is hot and the other pairs aren't hot, you not see any increase for anyone else, right? It would just be that particular pair. And and then the order and then you basically say, okay, now we have a particular block and there's like 10 transactions that all interact with this particular pair. uh then they would get executed in order of you know basically highest fee to lowest fee. Correct. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I think kind of touches on something I want to come back to later which is that the me topic but let's talk a bit more about uh the developer experience. So I know

move is obviously uh you know you guys are the the leading move chain and and move is you know today I guess we have the three leading ways right if you have smart contracts is uh solidity EVM right still number one and then SVM salana and then move right so if you think of those three what are the main differences from a developer perspective building on on sui and on poof. Um so SUI is non-accountbased whereas Salana and EVM is um SUI is strongly typed in terms of dealing with strongly typed objects where everything else

doesn't really solve that problem for you. Um the programming paradigm allows you for parallel execution natively which it doesn't give you for Pana nor does it give you for EVM. Well, Salana is actually better than EVM from program perspective, right? But still doesn't give you the same kind of safeties that move that's fundamentally built, purpose-built for um for um assets um gives you um the developer journey is a lot easier. I mean, people make a lot of noise by training glass as though that's a good thing, right? It's actually a bad thing. Um people are learning move very very quickly. there and we're saying up to 4 days people are picking it up and become quite adept to writing interest um actually interesting applications

very very quickly um from a devx perspective the fact that you've got primitives baked into the layer one for example randomness is baked into layer one you don't need an oracle for it um um zero knowledge proof um are baked into the layer one so you don't need like any offchain mechanism for that um the ability to verify people's identity directly is on chain with ZK login done in a very private uh in a very private way can be done directly on chain no need for off-chain oracles or off-chain third party middleware so we come from a perspective of you provide as much functionality in the base layer so developers can compose and build things are interesting rather than counting on third party integrations to make that work so I think from that perspective

you can build more interesting more engaging businesses on sweet and you can on salana or east now of course is the youngest of all these chains it's only been around for 2 years There's some catching up to do but I think SW is doing relatively well if you had to benchmark where Salana started it journey and where where it was in two years where SW is and in two years it's a it's it's it's there's an ocean device for how we've performed versus other change in our time frame. Uh let's talk about the consensus. So how does how does that work and how are you guys able to achieve uh you know such low latency and such high throughput? Well, I'm not a world expert in consensus myself, though my co-founders are and so is the engineering team. But I can talk about it from a high level perspective. So,

we've been able to build um what what is called a DAG based consensus scheme. In fact, it's probably the first DAG based consensus scheme that people fully understand and can teach as at college. So, some colleges, some Ivy League colleges are actually teaching it as part of their distributed systems um courses now because you can actually make sense of it. It's fully understandable. So this DAG based consent scheme reduces the amount of verific um which means you do not need to verify the um the steps in each um transitioning of a DAG over time you get that verification by proxy of getting enough signatures rather than having to do the verification up front. What that

means as well is it reduces the amount of round trips you need to do before you get certainty on a transaction. So that reduction in the amount of RAM trips you need to do to get certainty on a transaction reduces latency. So SU is by far the lowest latency chain when it comes to actual finality. I'm not talking about block times because block times and numbers people like to make up all the time. It bears no resemblance to what finality really is. And I'm not talking about optimistic transact finality because if you want to go there SW is like 20 seconds optimistic final 20 milliseconds optimistic finality. But who cares? That doesn't matter. What you care about is from when I click a button when is it final? when is it irreversible from a finality standpoint and from that perspective suite again is the lowest latency chain from that

perspective as well. So that gives us a big advantage over um other chains separately um the DAG based consensus we take advantage of it for ensuring transactions are done as quickly as possible. It gives us um the robustness that we have the you know 12 plus one um number of other kind of faults. So it it gives us a kind of um speed that has never been seen before. I mean we already had a very class consensus scheme with narwhal and bull shark when we went to mainet and the goal was always to get faster and faster. So we'll see what the team comes up with next. Um it's hard to imagine something faster but is actually a Mississippi version two coming out soon that would reduce latency even lower to what we have today.

Do you feel I mean so you mentioned 297k transactions a second that's kind of like token sense or does it include like smart contract transactions? So those are just peer-to-peer transactions. So if you want to do a pay those are like payments if you're doing payments. So if you want to do smart contract transaction it depends on what smart contract you're executing. But again is parallelizable. So you can do many things in parallel. What another thing that to bring up is SUI has this unique feature called PTBs which is programmable transaction blocks. So I can atomically conjure up a thousand 1,024 transactions together.

And what I mean by that is individual transactions. Let's say for example I want to do a trading strategy where I take a flash loan take that proceed put it into a lending pool take instantly a borrow out of that lending pool put into a D5 trade take advantage of an ARB settle that back with my lending pool and back again in the normal chain these are independent transactions you have to do one by one or you need to craft a smart contract for that specific path as we know everything's dynamic the path's not always fixed and you want to be able to make decisions with off-chain data at times as well. With SU you can craft up to 1,024 heterogeneous transactions together and sq them atomically instantly within um 300 milliseconds. So

that's another game changer. So if you are a market maker and you're deal you're trading on deepbook which is a center limit order book you're holding 500 positions across Debbook and you need to rebalance those positions or move them to different pricing point. You can execute that movement of removing the positions and then re-quoting them in a different price point with a single transaction. You cannot do that anywhere else in the world, right? You can't even do that on centralized stacks in an atomic way. Whereas su you given that atomic atomicity where you can submit all your cancels and all your new bids instantly with a single transaction batch and that's something you can't do on Soul, ETH or any other change. You can't even do that on a NASDAQ quite frankly. So that's a superpower that suite has that

I think starts to bear the question as to you know I I we believe that majority of trades in the future will happen on chain as long as the stacks take can take care of the bandwidth. Yeah, I mean it sounds honestly it sounds like from the kind of scalability you guys already have, do you think is is that mostly soft or do you do you expect that? I mean I guess it depends a lot right how things play out but do you expect that has to scale still a lot more for you know sort of eventually the next step for us will be launching um what we're calling raora which is our scale scale infrastructure again that lets you go horizontal you add more hardware you scale horizontally we're not a capacity yet so there's no real need to release that release that right away but su has

a solution for horizontal scalability the only thing we're going to keep doing is just optimizing the single compute unit for the computer, right? You make that more and more optimized over time. We already got the scalability from a horizontal perspective. Other chains do not have that. Other chains will talk about sharding, then you lose atomicity. There's no composibility across shards. And people have a tough time writing two-face commit algorithms, right? How they going to even solve that atomicity issue when it comes to shards. I I think they they're really they're promising something that they can't deliver on. So, from our perspective, we already have the scalability solution. What we want to keep doing is working on how do we get the most performance out of that virtual machine as possible. There are lots of things we can do around the move VM to make it even more efficient than

it is today. But that's not the bottleneck at this point in time. So right now it's really just keep on shipping more functionality to make it a the best place for devs to build. Let's talk a little bit about ME. I think there's like very different opinions on you know what is me? you know, is it something chains should try to prevent or and you know, we've also had different uh architectures, right? There many chains uh the validators build the blocks uh Ethereum of course most importantly has separated that out right with having proposers uh and builders and having those roles separated like how do you think about ME and uh like how does ME

work today in SUI? Yeah. I mean, the idea that somebody can put a transaction ahead of me knowing knowing full well I'm giving them information to trade on my behalf and they're using that information to rob me blind. I don't know how people justify that as a good thing. I'm sorry. I don't care what chain you are or what kind of school of economics you come from. That's just wrong. Right? You can always say that's somewhat illegal to large extent, right? Using some information I'm giving you to front run me and it screw me on price and say, "Okay, well, it's me, so it must be okay. Sorry that doesn't make sense. Now me is not impossible in any infrastructure but with it it's very it's almost impossible to make money doing me on SU especially in a

deterministic way right um we do have some schemes on sui and projects on suite that are making me more client um friendly namely if there's an opportunity to do any to me the rewards go directly to those who are participating in the ecosystem namely um token holders the trader directly these are happening So there are like fast paths to execute trades really quickly that are happening right now on SUI. But ME is an area that we're very passionate about, but to the point where we would rather shift the fa the the direction in the hands of those doer doing the trades themselves, not in some kind of minor that's going to extract value from consumer experience. Like think about it, right? I put in $50 and I expect you to get $50 in Bitcoin, but I get $48.

That's not right. I don't know how you could ever argue that that's a right thing to do in any world, right? in a world where I put in $50 and I get 50 back. That's what we want to be in. But also maybe if I get 51 because I'm able to take advantage of some other opportunity elsewhere in some pool um due to some arbitrage. That's actually an a positive from a consumer perspective. And I'd always be in the side of a consumer rather than the miners. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean it is interesting how you know in the beginning right when the whole me concept came up you know people were like ah this is really bad and uh and then I think in Ethereum right it's switched so quickly to like okay that's that's just the norm and you know

everyone gets extracted to the maximum possible the problem is we so fast that it's very hard to do right so when you have a chain that's very slow like like ETH or Even in soul where you know there's a lot of opportunity for MV on soul right because of the architecture um you don't have those opportunities on suite so it's very very hard problem to solve for suite namely if you do make it possible you want to make sure it's tipped in the favor and balance of those who are actually doing the trades not some arbitrary member so we actually think it's a problem that you want to index on solving in some way at least if you're going to solve it you solve it in the direction of consumers rather than um you know fee fee huggers to a disagree. So, but the way today this

might work is that you know a validator they get their transactions and then they still maybe plug into some sort of API with some kind of you know me company builder and then they do some sort of transaction insertion or reorganization which obviously would be much harder if you have less time uh for sure but is is that kind of the main way something like this gets prevented? So there are a number of ways. I'm not a mev expert. So it was probably worthwhile getting Sam on the call to talk more about the intrinsic way that we've built these protections. They're actually two different um applica there two different um providers that are vying to solve this problem. One with a

valid validator integration. Um one is simply just an onchain integration that doesn't require any validator upgrades. So there two directions that people are taking towards this but both are taking the approach of value must be given to token holders or those who are trading rather than those who are trying to extract value but int intricacies of how it really works is beyond my level of expertise or do expertise. Yeah. Well let's talk a little bit about some of the areas that you guys are focusing on. So I mean one is uh gaming right? Gaming has been let's say kind of a topic like like crypto gaming right has been something that's been uh for many years as some people felt like ah there's a lot of

potential there I think the main the main reason for it I often heard was like well maybe games have assets and then people don't really own those assets in the games and maybe it would be nice if people actually own them and maybe they could like you know use them, you use them somewhere else. So like, but what do you feel like is the the case for uh having gaming on chain? Yeah. So I'm not a believer that says games have to be on chain. I think I'm a believer that games just need to be more fun and the games that always historically do well are the ones that can keep the user base engaged for as long as possible and can keep increasing

the user base for a franchise. So three or technologies that get involved in gaming needs to solve that problem. So the partners we're working with are massive are large in scale and we've been able to convince them that their business model is way more sustainable using SU as a chain. Companies games don't have to be on chain. Maybe SWE is used for um the app store um concept of selling in-game assets or it's used for registering um entitlements or rewards or it's used for token gaining access to specific content or used as a mechanism to build an incentive scheme that lasts the test of time. So our work with game studios are along those lines. We actually launched a games console called

Two Player X1 which we announced last year and it's actually going to be shipping this summer. is sold out as a result of of the work the team's done. Really good work by the team. But beyond that is there's there's a gaming operating system called the Playron OS that's going to power the future of games. So this operating system you can do boot your Windows machine. It runs on a Steam Deck. It runs on Sweet Player X1. Anywhere you want to you want to play Steam, Epic or Web 3 games. You don't have to make a decision between platforms anymore. It'll run all those games for you. And then with that comes with a deep integration with Suite with ZK login. So just by logging into your normal account, you now have a wallet in the back end. We don't even call it a wallet. And you start to earn rewards

for playing any web two or web 3 games. In addition to be able to be given rewards for or at least discounts to be able to buy games because they find, hey, there's a correlation between people who play World of Warcraft versus some other game. If we give them a discount, maybe they're more likely to play our game, right? So the ability to engage and acquire users much more um frictionlessly is going to be what Web 3 powers. And these are the kind of investments we make. We're more betting on big items, long-term things that can make impact from a business perspective, not the hype stuff, right? Um, I think mass majority of games have been around in crypto, I always say, are spreadsheets or things that are built by accountants that pretend to be games rather than hardcore games that people find fun. And our partners we work with

have built games that have gross billions of dollars a year in revenue. And they know how to build fun and engaging games. The web 3 element is an aid to make the game experience way more compelling than a way to extract value by overcharging on NFTTS or putting some element of token gated in there that doesn't make any sense. So yeah, that's our thesis over. And what was the I'm curious about the sui play the so the console you guys uh are coming out with what was like what's the thinking behind it and and how does it work? So, the Free Playon is a very is a highly powered handgelled gaming device that um it's got great battery life, great screen, great graphics card, and let you play your PC games wherever you are,

portable. Um it will play your games on your Steam Deck. It will play your Epic games. It would also play web three games because that has its own app store. Typically, you're having to choose between one device or another. Now, with a Swplay device, one device does all that for you in a single unit. Um, chief of that is the fact there's a web three integration, right? So whether you're playing a web two game, web three game, it doesn't matter. We don't even call it out where's a web two, web three game. They're just games. And now you have a single device from a utility perspective that will reward you based on whatever games you play. Doesn't really throw web three in your face. You get to own your asset by your account that you create on on the system and you don't need to worry about wallets. the

payments will be by stable coins and you don't have to be overcharged the credit card fees that people bill you on the element the the thought process is in fact if you launch your game on a sweep X1 from an app store perspective you won't have to pay those fees those high fees that app stores charge you and that means those fee that money you save as a game studio can go back into building a better game or rewarding the users with better incentives to keep playing right okay so basically from a user perspective I can kind of buy this thing and it's it's a good gaming console anyway and I can play my existing games. But then there can also be more like blockchain games that have maybe their own tokconomics and incentives and stuff. And then from a developer perspective, it just makes it easy to

develop those games and then get distribution through everyone who has the console. Correct. I remember this operating system will get installed on PCs, um, setup boxes, you name it. So everywhere they go, their account is with them. So it's a distribution play. We want to be everywhere and we think by 2030 most gamers will have a wallet in some form. We think that wallet will be a ZK login wallet with Sweet. Cool. How many of the devices have been ordered? We only made 10,000 um to get it started and that's already sold out. Um we we have other manufacturers that want to build a Swplay device for their own user base and things like that which is exciting. Cool. Cool. Very cool. So you mentioned the other two big categories is like finance and commerce. I mean

DeFi of course is the thing that uh you know I would say the thing that crypto has actually nailed the best so far. How does the sui defy ecosystem how does it compare with others? Yeah I mean SUI is a um sixth largest um chain probably top five chain when it comes to D5 volumes and um in the top 10 firmly in terms of TBL. So SW is already showing marks to prot market fit in the areas of D5 transaction volumes. In fact, one of the top four dexes in all of web 3 is a SWEX already. So that's already exciting from a growth perspective. Um, one of the areas of focus for us right now is actually BTC 5. We want to be the chain

that brings utility for a ton of Bitcoiners. Um, that's exemplified by a partnership with IKA who's going to be launching this scheme that lets you control your Bitcoin assets on suite without ever having to use bridges. Um and more than 10% of the TVL on SU has grown very quickly to Bitcoin. That's only going to grow over time as well. So our focus is really to grow the financial ecosystem. We have stable coins. We have some have four stable coins on SU. We're going to be adding another that'll be announcing at base camp. Um separately from that as well there is u more opportunities to onboard other currencies into SU that we're looking at. We think um FX trades will be a massive volume driver for DeFi and SUI. Um especially if you're thinking about you know JPY, you're thinking

about you know Euro dollar um baskets as well. There's an opportunity for us there and I think SU is going to do really really well when it comes to um um FX trades. The car trade is going to be real. And then when you think of commerce do you think I guess payments is one aspect right? Uh so maybe stable coin payments. Um are there other things that you see there? The whole thing it's like the ability to pay send and receive payments, the ability to make bulk um transactions on behalf of your user base and the ability to reward your user base and keep them engaged with um reward systems, incentive systems, the ability to acquire users, target users, reward

users. All those things are an element of commerce. I think blockchains unfort well fortunately will do way better than traditional ads. I think the ad business of just like pain and spraying, especially with a session cookie being gone is going to falter. I think blockchains and wallets and the idea of like entitlement systems are going to be what you build ad businesses or ad networks off the back of moving forward. It's the element of shifting the balance into the favor of the consumer and taken away from centralized systems actually is better from a business perspective, right? the ad spend you'd make might be higher, but the cumulative rewards you get out of that ad spend will be better because it's a better targeted audience than this prayer approach that you do today.

And uh recently you guys launched Walos which has gotten also like lots of attention and you know is a very interest like what's what's the vision for Walos? Yeah, I made the point yesterday that in three in two years missing lives has launched three unicorns. Um, Warus being one of them, Deeper being one of them, and of course, SUI. Warus is a global stories layer. I mean, one of the feedback we heard from a lot of developers is, by the way, SU is about 100 times cheaper to store data than Soul and about 2,000 times cheaper to store data than than ETH. But still, it's too expensive, right? Because you've got this replication factor.

You're storing data on each validator and then you're multiplying that. So, if you store on Amazon, maybe you're paying 3 to 4x replication. If you store on, you're paying 100x replication, which makes no sense, right? So you might be able to store a megabyte, 2 megabytes, fine, you have it there forever, no problem. But if you want to start storing gigabytes, it's called pabytes of data. You only really have arweave that makes you pay 100 years in advance for data, which makes no sense. Or you have filecoin that doesn't really give you the guarantees you want. That's very, very slow in terms of downloads. There's no real solution for fully decentralizing your front end back end. So we built Warus specifically to solve that problem that we're hearing from developers. Now you have a fully programmable storage layer that let you store pabytes and gigabytes of data for

dirt cheap. It's comparable to Amazon in terms of pricing. Way more distributed, way more decentralized, way more resilient to faults. And you know, your files are broken up um using a red shift algorithm that effectively splits them into uh billions of fragments across hundreds or thousands of of of services. you only need to contact you know two um you know a third to two third of those machines to get your data at any given time. So it's actually a third of those machines to get your data. So even if twothirds of the network is down you can still access your files. You don't get that kind of resilience with any service provider that exists today. So this is us taking what people expect from centralized services and making it possible on decentralized services. And Wars by far is the most scalable, fastest um and most programmable

programmable way of storing data. And what's coming for Wars next is Seal, which is a scheme that lets you encrypt and decrypt files fully decentralized. So I can use my Google account to encrypt my files. Um, and it's all done fully in a decentralized way. I can try I can give you access to the file to see it. I can get access to content that's saying if you pay me 53 $50 or you know one bitcoin you can gain access to data. Now you can that programmability aspect becomes very very critical. you can do all that programmability and gate content for the first time using fully decentralized schemes.

Yeah, that's super cool. So it like basically I mean one thing is okay it it competes or it can be a a better alternative to things like filecoin things like reef right that you know have gotten some traction but pretty limited right because I think they're also still pretty limited in terms of um yeah like cost is still high right and and performance so there's that and then the thing of like having your entire application uh onchain right so I mean you mentioned the example of theosis safe in the bi attack right where basically uh the issue right one of the huge issue I mean there's a famous article know by

moxy mullen spike the signal creator right where he was like hey this blockchain thing is kind of because you have the smart contract things that's like onchain and verifiable and then people interact with it through these web applications where they have no control over. He is spot on. He was spot on. That's exactly it. Right. You build this amazing, you know, you're waving arms. Oh, it's all smart contracts and whatever. And how do you access it? Some third party website API that has been hacked that was hacked and people knew it was hacked for quite a while actually. And you know, this has happened all over in web 3. Whereas now with Warus, you can get a guarantee that the package or the website you're engaging with is what the developer intended for it to be. And you cannot

have this subversion of someone injecting something where it's not it's it's not possible anymore. So I I think that element of security that Warus brings is going to take wars beyond web 3. Um think about cyber security, think about government, right? Think about banking, think about all the use cases where knowing what you're dealing with, knowing what you're engaging with is very very critical and you want to protect the user funds or user data, user information. Wars is only going to let you do that in a fully permissionless way and fully programmatic way. So that's a scheme that I think is going to be critical for the future. This is why like I'm very bullish on the future of Wars because it solves the boundary transparency issue.

At the same time, it's a programmable storage layer where you can build arbitrary rules as to what accesses content or what can update content. And that rule can be fully transparent to the world. That's a level of security that you do not get when you try to build something on AWS or GCP. It's just not possible. And then you also mentioned that Nautilus. Can you walk us through that as well? Yeah. So, one of the next things we heard of developer feedback was, hey, we've got storage, we've got compute. Um, I mean, we've got comput smart contracts, right? We've got the ability to run a whole front end, but there are things that we want to do offchain that we can't get certain guarantees on chain about. For example,

if I want to do oracles, right, for data that that don't exist today, for example, I want to know what burgers cost in Missouri, right? Like maybe, who knows, like what use case it is, right? I have no way to verify that steam or verify that data. Well, with um probably the worst example, burgers in Missouri, they're multi. But if you want to verify some computation has happened on chain um of happened offchain but use a smart contract to verify that that computation happened correctly you're very stuck with options that exist today right you need to pay a lot of money to an oracle service to provide that data at great cost there's no way for you to do something yourself to make that verification possible so what north gives you is the ability to use um

trusted execution environments or TEES to do that computation right now Amazon Nitro there'll be other enclaves over It could do that computation and you can submit that attestation that the enclave will give you directly to the smart contract on suite and it can give you that ver it can verify that that computation happen correctly and proceed install the data directly on suite. So if I want to get a pricing feed for you know beef in some country in the world and do that in real time. I want to know what the weather is in some part of the world and store that on date on chain. I want to prove that I've done some kind of move in a game and then verify that on chain. I want to, you know, ensure that, you know, the horse race that happened um at the at the top derby in

the world had a right right winner and I want to reward the right person that submits the right the set of bets that matter. I can do that directly off chain and verify that with suite. What it really does, it expands the surface area of what you can do with offchain data and you can bring veracity to offchain data and do that in a fully trust and processed way with suite. That's what's key. It's the ability to compute things offchain, bring the atestation that was computed offchain and get that verified by a smart contract in order to do amazing programmatic use cases, right? So you could like as an example, right?

So let's say if I I'm a lending protocol and I wanted to use some data, right? Some kind of credit scoring thing, right? And I could be like, oh, I'm going to have this uh program and it's it's it's onchain, right? So you can see what the program is but then it's executed in Nautilus maybe logs into my bank checks some things and then and then basically can report some score back on chain and and and it also maintains the privacy in this case right correct it you have a better analogy or better example you should take my job my burgers and beef maybe I'm hungrier more so I'm curious so because your your title is like chief product officer so

Do you work kind of because this is like do you work on those particular products as well as kind of the you know overall chain or or do you focus on it kind of also from a sui as a product for the end user sui as a product for developers or it's seems like a vast scope all the above all the above right everything from what we do on the consumer front to what we do on the developer front to the platforms we're launching uh fortunately we have a great team Right. We have a great team that leads all these efforts and I'm here as a help and an aid um to ensure that we unlock um decision-m as quickly as possible. So we've been very blessed. We have to build what I believe is one of the strongest team in the

space. That's why we keep executing, always delivering all the time. It's it's strength of a team. It's I can't do it all myself. Um the team is is really overd delivered in the last uh two years. Right. Uh and then so do you guys spin out some of these things? So Wal Ross and they kind of then pursued independently or like you kind of incubate them and spin them out or Yeah. So um Sui Foundation is an independent entity from Miston. So is the Wars Foundation as we know Warus Foundation recently raised about $140 million that's independent of SUI. So it operates itself has its own mandate has its own agenda. We are here as a technology partner to help to help support and provide updates and upgrades

to the network and over time the goal is that other contributors which is already happening with SUI are participating in the improvement of the protocol over time as well. So it's it's it's not Warus is not run by Miston. Neither is SU run by Miston. We're the original creators of it, but we're also core contributors to it. And the plan always is like you expand the contributor base to to Suite and Morris and everything else that we launch. So when you think of the the road map for SUI, what are the I mean we me you know we talked about some of the things right that you guys are working on but what do you see as the most important you know like milestones and things that have to be done in the next like two years developer growth u an unhealthy

infatuation with growing developer base that's what we're doing now um we've got the platform now we've got the dev tools we have the storage, we have the coordination, we had the encryption, we had the offchain verification, we have the trading, we have it all. Now it's adoption and you're going to see us um in an unhealthy wave overly indexing on aggressively growing the developer base as fast as possible. That's going to be what we're our passion is going to be for the next two years. So that's going to be the passion. But I think look, we're building a what we believe is the new stack for the internet. Now it's time to go out to sell it to the world.

Cool. Well, thanks so much for coming on. It was super great and yeah, I'm really excited to see how this plays out. I'm curious for people who want to, you know, they I I think there's probably a lot of our listeners, you know, they they know about Suie, they've heard of Sooie, but maybe they haven't played around with it yet. They haven't experienced some of the things yet. What do you think are some of the best things that people can, you know, do to get started and to to try it out as a user?

Yeah, if you're a Phantom wallet user, Phantom's coming out soon, so you be you can even use in beta mode now. Download the Phantom wallet and get on, buy some SU and start playing around with lending protocols or go to um.io and look at the list of wallets. We have the SWU wallet, we have um the surf wallet, the number of wallets you can download today. That's it's always a best onboarding to start with the wallets. Um, even better still, if you don't want to download wallets, go to get stashed geoc.com and then you can effectively sign in with a Google account and you instantly have a wallet on suite. You create a username and you can start engaging with the chain instantly. So, we have it all for people to start playing with. Whether your interest is

DeFi, your interest is casinos, you're interested in um NFTTS, um SU has all that and above for you and there's a lot more coming to the ecosystem. We we announced a partnership with Movie Pass, the ability to soon be able to, you know, buy constant tickets with stable coins and start engaging with the movie industry in a lot more interesting ways. We partnered with Eli Gold, who is one of the most prominent guys when it comes to um um the horror movie industry. that that whole space of the movie industry is very interesting and we think that's going to be greatly um changed with crypto gaming or the horror movie industry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why is that? Because now if you imagine the problem with movie industry is like nobody owns a whole stack from the time when you you won't believe right like

there's some movies that actors are still waiting to be paid for. Right. Right. You you've done a movie two years ago you still haven't been paid or four years ago you still haven't been paid. No one could do the audit as to how much it grossed. Right. um how many tickets were sold and how to dispute dis disperse payment in a way that's transparent. So now you're going to have a full end to-end system where the movie lovers can get to watch your movies for free in addition to sharing the upside of the outcomes of the movies. So it means that everybody's guaranteed to be paid whether you're the actor in the movie all the way to the person who was holding the camera. your payments will be guaranteed but also you build a closer relationship between those who love the movies and those who actually

create the movies which is I always say commerce is a key thing it's a it's a problem across the world whether you want a publisher of a game to build a closer relationship to the players of a game whether you want the watchers of movies to be closer to those who actually create the movies that element of like building that bridge where there too many intermediaries that exist today is going to be broken that's what the decentralized stack solves for Cool. Well, thanks so much for coming on with me. It was really, really great. And um yeah, super exciting to talk with you. Thanks very much. It was a pleasure.