MOVE VM with Rushi Manche of Movement Labs

Transcript

foreign he is co-founder of movement Labs movement is a modular framework to build and deploy move based blockchains applications and infrastructure in any distributed environment today we're going to discuss well what is move what is this language why are people so excited about it we'll talk about movement Labs as modular move VM we'll also discuss why they're building their product as an avalanche subnet we'll also talk about the long-term vision and collaboration and Integrations with Cosmos and also their M1 Network that will effectively be a launch product for movement I'm also

dying to find out why he thinks solidity will never be globally adopted at a mass scale before we get started make sure to hit the like button hit notification Bell And subscribe to make to get notified when I go live every week and remember that none of what we discuss here on the interoper's investment advice and if you enjoyed this content please consider sticking with us we're live on fmos Quicksilver osmosis Juno and now on no less just look for interop in the active set and nebula Summit is like 17 days away and that's both exciting and scary I hope you are coming to San Angelo's Summit it's happening on the 24th and 25th of July in Paris it's two days of technical talks about IBC Cosmos The Interchange so much more uh Ethan Buckman documention and Jack

sampling we just announced the speakers so with all the other speakers we have as well it's going to be amazing we also have never really hack day on July 23rd that is a full day of technical Talks by the likes of dydx neutron Osmos Juno okp4 and other teams that will be giving Tech workshops there that's totally free for anyone to attend go to nebula.builders for more my guest rushi is coming up next right here on the interrupt [Music]

hey Rosie thanks for joining hey what's up Deb how's it going great yeah really excited to talk about move today and movement and the move VM and all of that exciting stuff uh but first yeah how did you become part of this project and how did you get so interested in move yeah so I've kind of been a nerd and engineer for most of my career in life um started off doing like systems and database security at a health insurance company um kind of stumble across defying crypto internal when I was in ethereum D5 scene started doing smart contract engineering um was from deck stuff indexing protocols um ethereum D5 space um really got interesting Cosmos

ecosystem like played on a cosmoasm and a space stuff but ultimately really like saw the benefit of this new language that's coming out called move at the time a little bit context of the language it was designed by the Facebook DM or Libre project um a few years back it was actually a book called The Move book written by the DM folks and since then the Facebook had to kind of span the project because of some regulation issues there's kind of the foreshadowing for what we're seeing now in the United States um Facebook couldn't hold on to the product anymore so the team kind of split up into two you have Aptos and Aptos labs and Suite from missing Labs um as a two main sex that's built up into it um raise a lot

of money probably the most well-funded ecosystem in space right now I'm outside of obviously ethereum um and yeah I think what I kind of stumbled across the white paper first and read the mood book I was like wow this is very interesting a because it was the first stab at a mainstream like obviously meta and Facebook um really penetrating into smart contract development I don't think um anyone has remotely come to that like Google cloud has done some stuff um AWS has support infrastructure but in terms of actually creating Financial infrastructure and railroads it's never been done before so that sort of first common interest and then we look deeper into laying semantics um it was very interesting and I know we're gonna chat

them on why I move later but it kind of solved all the issues that I was facing on Celebrity developer and personally just fell in love with it um and then God's apathy system was an engineering some D5 protocols my co-founder built the first yield aggregator in the space so we're kind of like one of the first builders in League system but we didn't really like how it was handled in terms of apples and Suite um in terms of being very developer friendly and also focusing any systems where the users are already there where there already is D5 volume where there already is wall Technologies where there's already railroads and infrastructures and we wanted to bring the fruits of this new language teak systems to where there was um set communities and I guess we can

delve deeper into that yeah absolutely I mean uh it's it's interesting to go back and at that time when you know Facebook was announcing Libra and just the it wasn't even regulatory pushback it was just political pushback it was just like this flood of like fud around the biggest you know social media uh network uh social network in the world building their own currency and that um you know I think a lot of people you know that project has then was then rebranded to DM and then it was just dismantled but I think people don't realize the impact that this project had on policy makers like when we were working with folks in the European

commission a couple years ago to to craft the Mika regulation you know this was in 2020 the the amount of uh of folks that were just like holding on to this Libra idea and essentially saw everything bad in crypto sort of like you know extrapolated that into what they had seen in Libra was was insane and and so everybody was kind of focused on this thing even though it didn't exist anymore and they sort of saw all of crypto and defy as mirroring you know the risks of of Libra and and Facebook you know entering sort of the currency market and so it was really uh it had lasting effects even though the project doesn't exist anymore it really had lasting effects I think on like

opinions you know in policy and uh in in Enterprise yep I think that's where you saw from develop point of view because I think slowly was a great first precursor but it was like okay who's actually running solidity what Enterprises using slurring the guard rails so when move first came out all like the engineers were like oh my God this is like finally something that's like defined by one of the biggest companies in the world um and that's what Drew like a lot of developers to originally so so how many developers are there in the secret system really because I I read the I I read some report I think it was like the the Electric Capital report and yeah he said that it was the fastest growing developer ecosystem like the numbers the

the absolute numbers are fairly small but you know relative to other ecosystems that's growing very fast and what's your sense of how big the developer ecosystems are yeah um I actually just pulled up the the document but sweet that's I think April as of April 1st it's 67 since then um and then Aptos is on the same so combined they have around the same as being B more than B and B chain um and around the polygon numbers so if you were to put them at around like seventh most already off the bat um I think there's two interesting things on the electric cap report that I took away from that a is the 203 so we compare growth rate similique systems um the only thing only exists from this gotten close to what happens we have

been able to pull off islana um so when I offer explained to like the move system there's two main things a I kind of call it the precursor a lot of when you look at slots directory it took a few years for to kick up people were like what's this new programming language like why not solidity like why am I doing this um and that's what we're seeing in the early stages except now you have 650 million dollars already committed like to be poor and eek system which is quite a lot of money uh and then B you have ability for this large APAC presence so if you look I'm currently calling for the APAC region I was at a sweet Builder house in Kyoto but in Korea Japan um Taiwan these regions are especially blowing up with new developer activity um especially as U.S regulations

increase and a lot of macro Transit shipping tours APAC region um this is a opportunity to remove developers and people believe Moon infrastructure can really capitalize it right you know the fastest growing development environment it's already at sixth or seventh most um off the bat and now you have the ability to scale in regions where the economy is booming cool yeah I mean here in Europe at least I I don't hear a whole lot of people talking about move and Pepto sensui apart from investors but um yeah I didn't know that there was this growing uh uh growing ecosystem of developers in in uh in Asia and APAC region

um so so let's maybe kind of decipher the difference between Aptos and so we like why are there two chains doing you know building effectively which seems like the outside like the same thing are are they different and which one of them are you know which one of them is maybe leading or like what's your sense of what that looks like yeah so um people have mixed opinions on who's a better chain um it doesn't really matter of course they do it's crypto yeah um but ultimately anywhere in a bear market so it doesn't make sense to squabble over who's a better move chain like liquidity and like volume on both

These Chains they're like going to be low or substantially because it's a new chain um see like uproar um and that's what's going to happen with move um so I think how it kind of broke up was appdos generally got more the BD people um and so we got more of the engineers that's why so we took a longer time to kind of further iterate upon this move language so to give context um the move language designed by Facebook was more directly inherited by Aptos and sweep have changed it around some notable differences whether so he has a consensus for like a dag like consensus um they also have more emphasis on Dynamic nfts um they have different they're just kind of time set method called it clock which is supposed to

speed up throughput it but long story short sweet is a more enhanced version of the traditional move the question is where is like what's the market trends right so so far what I've been seeing is the app does is more the D5 scene and that's kind of where they're putting their um bets on where Swiss betting more in gaming um so they're talking gaming Studios onboarding them um doing a good job with the APAC region particularly so I think both these chains have a a way to win a because they have a fundraising mode and B they're kind of targeting different markets but I think the current state of the move language is very secular in that or like very split up in the app dust move and sumu which in itself is a

different Lane it's so apples moving sweep of a completely different languages um yeah you can't deploy a sweet move contract an app plus movie and you can deploy after dust move contract that's we VM um it's like a diff completely different languages right so that does create fragmentation because when your bear Market is x amount of developers and now you're saying okay there's two different like this new language but more on top of that there's two different styles to move that language it creates a fragmentation so one of the goals here and we'll get more into that is kind of unified as efforts right we believe in this language we believe it's the future

but a we want to democratize it so bring it to each systems where there's is like developers are always friendly like using the same wallets um using the same apis um using like 90 of the same Tech stack but it's the movie VM or the new execution on top of it is really what we're trying to strive to do here and then in terms of providing compatibility to both these systems right now if you have appdos Dap You can't build on Suite if you have a suite dot candle app does we're working on unifying that okay I mean it sounds a bit complex right like if you have the basically this you know the the same you know language at the start and and now like none of these contracts are compatible with you with each other uh okay and so do they compete on so I I get that

like Aptos is more D5 and sui is is is leaning more into gaming are they competing on um on other metrics like transaction volume or or uh or any other kind of you know typical metric that people compare blockchains on yeah I mean it's crypto encrypted Twitter right like generally like there was like this huge issue at eat Denver or something where like I think it was after Uninvited sui from the event and there was like oh there's like a whole debacle um which is a child's play but anyways yeah people still compare like oh this is a TPS position it's TPS for this chain um and then in practicality you're not actually seeing much volume

um so it is ultimately just comes down to crypto Twitter and crypto um General comparisons like oh this channel this chain but in the macro um I would say they are competing but it's good competition right um the analogy we say is a rising tide lifts All Ships um so if General if swedes doing really well that generally brings more developers so that brings more developers to Apples and Sweden both and us right um that's kind of how we're marking ourselves too is great there's this new language and there's a lot of fundraising around it let's try let's try bring traditional evm users and like these evm Maxis to the move language which ultimately helps overall exist them and that's a lot of different groups the salon of VM are trying to do as well

so aptosis uh is already live is already mainnet and sui is yet to launch I believe I mean they're amazing also okay so how how much like liquidity how big are these ecosystems like what are we talking about here compared to something like Solana or like another liquidities and traction is something that both existing will tell you they're working on because a they launched in probably the worst market we've seen or like one of the worst markets we've seen so it doesn't help their case um in terms of numbers I believe after something around 40 million TV else we just launched a few a month or two back it's like 15 million TV up

um so obviously in terms of numbers it's still lacking um but that doesn't strike me as something that's bad or something that's alarming because any new blockchain especially in your ecosystem new language it takes a while to kick up um if if the bet is more on the macro turn like in the five next five to ten years what is the language that's gonna win and I think most developers will tell you it's not solidity um it hope it's probably some other language it might not be move um but the bet that we're making is move has the most traction right now out of a non-edming system um and in the next five years we're betting on a multiple League systems not just movement not just apples and Suite um but every system adopting move as some capacity okay the the people in the chat here are

are talking about something I have no idea what it is but they're uh what's this uh sharp fades uh it's the haircut I think it's the haircut okay okay anyway there's some uh there's some conversations going on about your about your haircut uh [Laughter] great well let's talk a little bit about like the move language specifically you know well what's what's so great about the move language and how does it compare to well one thing that I think a lot of people are familiar with and we'll have a good understanding is uh solidity but also I think you know given

the context of this podcast what is the how does it compare to say something like a cosmos and VM you know using with applications written in Rust yeah so I think the best example to point to this would be the dowotech um I think everyone kind of remembers how bad that attack was um I think it was like 3.6 millionth which at the time was like 15 million US Dollars um basically what the attack was a lower scale reality attack for the folks who aren't familiar with what the definition is it's basically we're able to get into a Flawless more contract code with the integer overflow or like a byte mishap um and basically give the attacker's ability to carry the same transaction

repeatedly so if I'm saying money for me to you I can make the same request around like 100 times and keep withdrawing eth without anyone checking on me because there wasn't any kind of built-in connection say hey this person's selling money from this person with this address they're only allowed to send X amount of dollars at an x amount of time there's no built-in production it's kind of left up to the users and let the Developers it's pretty difficult to cancel this and I said it's maybe a handful of developers that can effectively Safeguard um applications and even then it's like hackers always find a way to oh you missed that the integer is 257 bytes not 56 bytes I just got in a system that's 10 million dollars lost overnight right um so I think on security side that's

real that's really the reason why move was designed it's because if you're ever going to see institutions major gaming apps um Banks using smart contract language it can't be utility because if I say for example you have a lending protocol from One Bank in Thailand um to Indonesia if that smart contract gets hacked and you lose a billion dollars now it's not just a random D5 protocol it's a whole Bank as an entity losing um the support of its like followers who really or people or putting money in it um that really need the money right um so that's originally Why move is designed right it has multiple key features essentially as things calls um the thesis is formal verification so so developers can choose who has access

to a module which is a function solidity when they have access and why they have access so if I'm studying me for money from me to step I can embed it within a smart contract saying this money is going to go to the Vault The Vault will stay there for x amount of time it can only be accessed by Seb who has this address for x amount of time if there's any other criteria that's met it immediately knows the contract and doesn't go through with it what that really allows you to do is overarching theme security so you have built-in bike interpreters and verifiers that before smart contracts executed it checks for resource type and memory safety um so those exploitations that happen slowly um rust and even other like languages like JavaScript um fundamentally not possible in mood because it won't execute a smart

contract if the bugs are present and then yeah that's a little bit more on the security so that I can get more into that but the second fold is a performance Side sub move is also designed to be the fastest and highest performance language um in likes with the salon thesis in fast fast right but move is saying okay we want to be as secure as possible but also be have a throughput necessary for these large gaming apps and social file I think it's originally one of the main reasons why on Facebook designed this language because if you get integrated into Instagram or Facebook now you're not talking about 10 users or 100 users Dau you're talking about billions in you know language and you need a framework that can handle those transactions per second otherwise your system's crashing every day um and gaming apps especially

in the bull market saw that bandwidth get kind of destroyed if you talked about D5 kingdoms they broke Harmony then they broke Avalanche and now they launched a subnet to handle scaling issues right um so that's kind of a tldr on to like why move yeah I'd like to talk a little bit more about the security but something that I forgot to ask which comes back to the previous topic was in in Aptos and sui what's the consensus look like because that also plays a huge part in throughput right it's like transactions being able to be confirmed yeah so Abdus has like a traditional bfp consistency consensus um so he uses a dag which is some people don't really call it blockchain technology but it's like a different kind of consensus

um I think both of them are like very instant finality contest is pretty solid um the only issue that tends to pop up with both EC systems is the centralization um issue the minimum stake on AP on Aptos is 2 million apt I believe which is 10 million in dollars plus which means you kind of shut out most of the community because not everyone has 10 million dollars um and their bank account just take Aptos sui I believe is 10 million Suite or something like that um so long story short it's a lot it's a big staking requirement to be able to participate as a validator in these networks um which tends to lead to a centralization um in both chains um I'm not here to spread fun or like kind of um talk bad about change but um

that tends to be why we see some performance issues a consensus mechanism if you have 70 personal Network dominated by a centralized entity chances are your throughput isn't that great because it ultimately ends up being sequential if even if you Market as a parallel processing system if you have one centralized entity that runs around 67 Network um some arbitrary number like that you still need to wait for that one entity to verify each transaction versus something like Avalanche Cosmos where the valid requirement is taking far as much lower um eventually you get a permissionless networking move out of balloters now you have actually the use case of parallel processing and we've seen that Salon obviously right with the decentralization that hasn't happened since we yet and it's something that we're working on fixing

yeah I mean at some point you know even Cosmos and Avalanche as as more applications come on those chains and the token prices you know probably go up in lockstep like the the cost of securing that change is also going to get higher and they also certainly the the entry the entry uh price to to to become a validator will also become much higher um but that's just like that's just a function of like ecosystems growing um so let's talk about uh the security aspect of move a little bit more um because a lot of people talk about and you you mentioned this also that move is a very secure language it has uh you know has formal verification like uh

type verification Etc um can you talk about some of the specific features that make it more uh secure than most other uh I mean maybe you know maybe the evm is not a good is not a good example but let's say compared to cosmoasm which I think like is much more secure than solidity and and also much more robust and uh better development environment Etc yeah of the cosmos Summit in Prague and I went up on stage and said move is better than causing Lawson and after the the little like talk I had like eight angry Cosmos and developers how do you why do you think it's better why do you think it's better and I was like okay this is what so essentially there's a

few embedded security features that's not really prevailing Cosmos and rust um it's more novice to what you're seeing in Cairo and Cairo one specifically um which is like starkware um smart clock development but for example the move has a built-in by code verifier it uses this schematic column borrowing checking um so there's only one mobile reference at a given time so for example if um if I'm a hacker in slitty or even cosm wasn't rushed when there is a smart contract there's multiple like methods or functions that can manipulate a time with move it specifically defines the by code of our verifier that there's only one readable reference at a given time so if it's a very variable or a specific um contract that needs to be invoked

there's only one thing they can swap out developers at a given time and then once that transaction is executed it can only be modified by the function invoking it which is a huge difference from traditional language protocols because you can if you're a smart content developer you can say this dap has access to this smart contract module which gives hackers and just general people look at smart contracts ability to say to change the identity essentially and um say assert paternity and get into a smart contract if that makes sense more so move has this embed saying that there's only one person who can access at a given time and that's a person who invoked the function calling a smart contract and then once it's invoked there's only one mule reference and a

function can change at a given time so the worst case scenario the worst manipulation that you have is a single mutable reference that gives a smart contract so there's none of that rapid reality attacks that you see in slurdy um cosmopolism does a better job than slowly obviously but I think there's built-in security features um that's not present cosmoplasm and I think something that's very important to know is I'm sure that if you were like a cracked Cosmos developer you could get to the point where it was bulletproof obviously the greater protocol is doing that but for the average developer imagine like the 23 year old they're just college grad and he's just picking up a Smart Country language he has to spend years or he or she has spent years um perfecting Cosmos and slowly Etc to really get to the point where developing

bulletproof smart contract code um to deploy with movie The Learning Gap is pretty similar if you know Russ it takes you two weeks to learn move and you have built-in security and semantics so you don't need to worry about re-entergy attacks you need to worry about 40 vacation it's built into language um so even though some people will be like oh this language is better than that oh this language can actually do it the question is how easy is it for the average developer to attain security I'm sure like I touched on if you're like a rate of good developer you can do it but part of what I guess the entire industry is trying to do is how you make this more accessible to the average the user average day developer I think movie does a great job of doing that so if you know rust it's fairly easy

then to pick up move sorry yeah if you're arrested developer like the knowledge I use is move is to Ross as a reactors of JavaScript if you know JavaScript it gives you two weeks to pick up react if you know lost it takes you two weeks to pick up move um it's just a difference in like uh using this mod like it's called modules and it's more object oriented and there's like security mechanisms that you pick up um but it's a rust based even the VM is rust based um so it's pretty standard to pick up okay interesting um yeah well let's let's dive into movement a little bit and uh and what you guys are building but before we do that I wanted to address your hot take uh from the beginning of the of the podcast you said that solidity would

never be globally adopted at a mass scale uh I think like uh like you're you're you're uh your uh your Prague experience that would probably get a lot of people also uh coming up to you after after your talk uh what what do you think that is can you defend that argument yeah I think everyone I've spoken to agrees like even like ethereum like main Engineers are now would say like these vulnerabilities are too hard and to pick up on that skill um like especially if you're like the top one percent developers you can probably figure it out and like use external libraries to kind of piece together um but there's two things here a how do we make it as easy as possible the average developers if you ever get to a

point always a web 2 and the average students learning their college environments or like people wanting to build their own websites and blockchains are that you know readily available you want a framework and language that's easy to pick up and B has as much built in security um and performance mechanisms to make it as easier for developers it's a concept of abstraction right how can we abstract away um the security mechanisms sure and solidity sure in different languages you can add a bunch of different libraries put again pull the load pieces together and get decently secure code but the average developer is not going to be able to do that and if we're ever going to hit the adoption where um there's millions of millions of developers the language that's going to

be used the most is the one that's the easiest and most abstracted that's why JavaScript blew up right it was in the C plus or wasn't like the Assembly Language right it was the higher level well documented um like widely used language that pretty much subtracted with user experience like it's pretty easy to launch web applications with JavaScript react was more specialized in that it was easy to spin up your own IOS app spin up your own website pretty straightforward um so I think that's the bet with anti-solidity it could be some other language besides move but in the current state 30 is very weak in terms of security like built-in mechanisms and then be on the performance side it's just not able to handle payroll

processing um there are a few teams trying to work like monad who brings um like parallel processing to evm but traditionally solidity is not built and the evm itself is not built to handle higher throughput needs so if all goes well and we actually hit the million user Market plus um you can't have it with five PBS it's just not gonna work yeah I I that's uh that's something that's very difficult to square with people who are like really vested in ethereum is uh yeah and I mean I love ethereum I mean I was like always loved that project since since I first heard about it uh but um yeah I think you're able to see how it scales it's really difficult to see how

it um it grows to kind of like Mass adoption level without some significant some significant changes to the VM yeah I think it's a horror note that slowly is not ethereum right um just like move is not necessarily Albertsons sweetie um you can believe in ethereum and not believe in solidity like you can say oh absolutely you think it's most decentralized ethereum has all the volume ethereum has all TBL you're right in all metrics um and a lot of groups are now coming out and saying how can we take the best parts of ethereum but remember the worst Parts um so that's where the layer two kind of um like kind of app chain thesis and what Folks at optimism Arboretum are

trying to do as well as DK groups um I think that's our thesis going forward right we believe in these existing systems Cosmos ethereum Adventure but how can we leverage how can we leverage these already establishing systems and fundamentally improve them on a user-friendly level so it's built in SDK and B on a level that doesn't change your user experience so you still use the same wallets use the same apis but now you can kind of use move without even knowing it that's kind of what we're trying to get at yeah and that's a huge challenge like yeah I think you know like you said even even solidity developers agree that solidity is probably an act not the the language that will take ethereum you

know through the next say 10 years but there's a huge technical debt there and uh just you know seeing how how long it took to move ethereum to prove a stake now imagine changing changing the VM so that uh so solidity is no longer a language now of course l2s are going to address that by by having sort of VMS that um that leverage ethereum as a DA layer but but ethereum for now at least I don't I don't know of any plans to change the update the VM all right let's let's dive into movement so what what is movement and what is it offering to developers and and I guess the broader questions like words that

sit with regards to Aptos and sui um so to explain what movement is essentially is a module it's part of the modular thesis so it's a modular move framework to bring the execution environment to different EC systems um so we're starting with Avalanche which is our first chain called M1 um it's using the great sub technology and leveraging a movers machine and the vision is to unify different ecosystems with one centralized SDK so if I can deploy a move smart contract and it can exist on different EC systems where a can be adopted as a standard for ethereum um Avalanche Etc and B have a unified bridging mechanism so no matter where I am if I'm an avalanche McAfee if I'm

ethereum Maxi I can still believe and move and use the same default apps in the same wall infrastructure um so long story short it's a modular execution layer that brings the move language to different systems so movement is uh when you say that movement uh can deploy to different ecosystems so it's sort of like a more of a development framework than that so much so than a than a VM yep it's more of a development framework as an execution environment I think if you have you heard of fuel Labs um they kind of did like a whole fuel VM on top of different systems um we're following kind of a similar Playbook except we're trying to unify all the different environments I think something that I

came across as a developer is if I'm trying to deploy a smart contract there's like 100 different chains 100 different sdks 100 different clis um it's a very fragmented approach in terms of how can I deploy smart contracts which a deters users because we're using that within the movie Community you have two different environments two different blockchains it fragments the user experience it fragments the development environment what if there's a way that you can create a centralized SDK have developers building on one SDK creates two ways on top of that and can deploy different chains um it's particularly why the cost of SDK was brilliant right you have the ability to split up app chains at will you can use IBC connect all of them um it was a revolutionary thing but our thesis is let's bring a console SDK like feel the execution layer environment

where we can deploy move smart contracts and make and unify all these different systems that are fragmented okay so when you say that you can deploy these applications you you can use the SDK to deploy to different uh chains you're talking about deploying to different move VMS or is there is the SDK also compiling sort of move code into say solidity or some other like byte code that can be deployed so this is some Alpha um but we're working on a compiler um that can turn this move code into solidity code um and that is coming out very shortly once we come out with the race

announcement and the whole like uh marking gig um but for the first few iterations it's going to be the move VM um because we're going to existence where it's fairly portable and it's kind of why we settle on Avalanche the first stop um it's kind of in the prerogative the Allen's Tech stock to be cross VM um and be intraoperable with the subnet architecture so it made it really easy to deploy the movie on the top of it um and then when we go to differentiate systems a could be a compiler that directly turns the move code into evm or it could be potentially bring the move VM to like Roll-Ups and whatnot okay very cool well you heard it here first um yeah thanks for sharing that so so the this um this framework

um it so going back it allows developers to build move uh contracts and deploy them to any uh move environment are they writing in aptosui or Aptos move or sui move so right now it's Aptos move but we'll have compatibility for both styles okay and is there going to be like some higher level of abstraction where you could just write like in one language and it then deploys to both types of move VMS so there wouldn't be any need to do that because at the move VM level itself um Aptos and sweet so we move are different but they're more designs like Suite move is designed for those three consensus app plus movie designs with

Aptos consensus the move standards and benefits are kind of similar in both some argue that screen move is radically better than app does um so as of right now where we're standing it's like apples and sweet move like the ability launch in both um we all work talking with some ZK folks and there could be some ck move which kind of has a problem extraction but it's more downward map um it doesn't it doesn't really need to be a need for that so far okay so you don't need to compile down to like some common thing okay uh interesting so where where does um where does M1 sit in all this so M1 is the average chain um technically it's being a subnet but we mark it as a layer one on top of

average consensus it's one of the first of its kinds um in that we're able to bring a novel new technology um to Avalanche system um so that is what we Market as M1 a modular one um and then we're able to have different expansions so M2 M3 um kind of the inspirational is that um Tony Stark um Iron Man mark one in which I was the first like um suit of armor and then he's able to upgrade that um with more iterations um so that's kind of where we do inspiration for the mark one chain okay so the M1 chain is uh Avalon subnet that allows people to deploy move smart contracts

um yeah why did you choose to build on auto launch yeah that's the question we get a lot um and there's a few reasons a the average is pretty much one of the only places where cross VM or multiple VMS is possible um averages in the past is the rust VM um obvious they're evm compatible um but they essentially have this Suite of grpc apis that are exposed to any VM call average go so essentially what you're able to do is Plug and Play different VMS into the consistent mechanism so for example if you have a masalana VM or rust via you can put it on you can spin up as a binary sub process on top of the grpc API as an average go and then now you can send Solana VM transactions to average

consensus so a technically it was the best and probably only place um that we could build on top of as of right now for the first chain and then B in terms of liquidity that is a huge struggle that Optus and Suey are facing obviously 40 million 15 million TV aren't that flattering Salon us all in the first two to three years um it kicked up and GX erected unfortunately but hopefully they're kicking back um but what the benefits of avalanche is the technological Avalanche war machine so essentially any DFI protocol it's a yield aggregator on appdos you didn't have much yield to aggregate it was pretty much next to nothing or books had no orders to really book those same D5 protocols can launch an M1

chain and natively tap into liquidity and user base that exists on the primary chain so a yield dagger okay in theory you use primary assets or books can in theory use primary chain assets um it's something that it's more analogous to what ibcs did for Cosmos and it's something that is on a system where it's evm mostly okay so you said something interesting here that I wasn't aware of or that I'd like to unpack a little bit just you said that uh the Avalanche consensus works with uh any uh VM because of these grpc these grpcs that allow the uh the VM to talk directly to Avalanche consensus how different is that from

ABCI on uh Cosmos tenement chains so it's pretty similar in terms of conceptually I think that average go is more better documented and it's also there's better use cases of ABC better use cases of average girl you have us you have rust VM you have the evm obviously I believe ABCI is used for obviously evm and then um folks who are working on Solana VM but there hasn't been any kind of deployed concept um and I think it's pretty similar in terms of General aspects but Avalanche go is more directly saying hey you can plug in your VMS into our consensus and it's really a public and open sourced and documented very well on the average

website okay interesting um cool and so you're launching this as a subnet and the idea is that that M1 serves also as a way to move liquidity in and out of Aptos and sui by virtue of being Avalanche I mean Avalanche is like one of large ecosystems there's tons of liquidity there um what what are you what are you doing here to like bootstrap that process and is M1 like does M1 act as a a sort of Hub between Avalanche Aptos and sui and then later on like other ecosystems is

that the vision here yep the vision is have M1 is the Hub fuzzy U systems we believe that if we can a have a first stepping stone as an alternative to the main two move chains that's already off the bat a lot better for the experience they're seeing in Apperson Suite um a for tokenomics reason which I can get into later um and then B um just from a pure Tech stack we did not 146 000 TPS a few days back and the ability to be have multiple chains with the subnets communicated with submit to primary chain essentially we're able to bring what like the cosmos like field to move language and then we can bring that same Tech stack to other exist ones

um it's kind of what like polymer is doing with IBC right this IBC started off within Cosmos and they bring IBC now into other existence which is very attractive okay very very neat and so when when people are using the the movement uh framework they can deploy then they can use that framework to deploy to M1 and then obviously like all of the other uh all the other move uh VMS or or chains yep uh will Aptos and sui D5 protocols and applications Deploy on

on M1 yep so the benefit is that we're fully compatible with any Apple Speed code so say if you have some a decks on Aptos it takes you 10 to 15 minutes to launch on top of us it's obviously no-brainer like why would you not like launch on other systems where there probably is more liquidian volume um when you can just do it in 15 minutes um and then yeah I think it's that's how the user experience and we're working on and have onboard so that bigger protocols in the space and I I read about this ZK move is that is that a thing or is that something you guys are building so it was a concept first there was like a few developers that um spun out of the Libra project they were interested in um creating a zero knowledge runtime for

the move language um so we're still in talks to the team and seeing how we can integrate a tech stack um but the thesis is if we can bring the same like privacy and ability to use DK proofs to not only have like authentication with any system I know for example sui has ZK logging so now when you log in with wallets and sweep system you can use your email and password um so that's something we're aiming to do as well like really bring the Technologies and fruits and the Z key technology ZK proofs um to to the move language so now combine the fastest more secure language with the Privacy um of the ziki technology okay how many move VMS are there in total uh in terms like like live right now yeah or that that are like people are

working on I would say it's appersons we have two blue VMS um and those are the only two live ones on mainnet um and then we're probably the one of the first groups or if not the first group doing on the freak systems um and there's one other group I believe um that's trying to look a layer three move solution but that's all I know for myself okay so you you mentioned tokenomics briefly can you talk a little bit about um the M1 tokenomics yeah so I think the biggest pain Point um in both Apperson Suite with economics um when Aptos first launched it's probably one of the most hyped projects I remember like everyone and their mom was talking about this new app dust

chain launching um and then the rollout kind of came fftx crashed um and then people were looking at tokenomics and like hey first of all I've just been publish it until very late and then we looked at it it was like some ridiculous number where it was like 60 plus percent was in some win team investors hands um even though it's not officially documented on that when you look at like the breakdown of cowboys after that um and sweet kind of falls in the same ballparks um so what we're trying to do is very very Community First economics um 60 Supply going to um Community we really wanted incentivize developers so a huge percentage of suppliers going with developer grants um going to ecosystem initiatives um and really trying to minimalize how

much investor allocation we're taking and what you're trying to take um but bare minimum system makes some fun um and make sure that we're able to put the tokens in the hands of the team if you look what Avalanche did I believe they took an almost like 50 valid rewards um and then like very ecosystem driven focus and that's why I Lynch is Avalanche um and we're trying to aim to do some other things if you can incentivize a community first through tokenomics um a it will be much more rewarding for the general and B you'll be getting developers because now these token grants are worth a lot of money um and then developers that now have a they can run their own validator so you have more decentralization and then B you have supply for them to build on top of

yeah and so to be to be a validator for for M1 you you essentially have to be an avalanche validator right yep so you think a vaccine stake mbmt as well right okay so the requirement is like the same as having a like I think you need 200 avax to be an avax validator it's like 2 000 avax and there's two thousand yeah yeah which is I think at this point it's like 20 to 30 000 yeah which is a lot less than 10 million dollars yeah yeah of course um cool yeah let's talk about Cosmos a little bit so I mean I I know you know you're um also like deep into the cosmos ecosystem what's the longer term play here with regards to movement and Cosmos yeah I

think just taking a step back I feel like Cosmos um and Avalanche have a very interesting um Synergy like Sunny speaking at the average Summit um there's a lot of avalanche folks that causes events I think it's solid if it's on the if it's a win um that Avengers eventually kind of converge into like my thesis um somebody's talking about that with mesh security and how can you like share security with the Phoenix systems um so that was very exciting to hear about but overarching taking a step back is how can we take these two extends like a bunch of Cosmos um kind of have different use cases sometimes and really kind of band together um so a we're working with different groups there or like polymer et cetera um they're taking IBC outside of Cosmos um looking to bring an outlet Etc

um so that's kind of a potential Partnership of that front I know they're trying to integrate with um eclipse of Solana VM um and they're wearing intoxicated with the movie I'm next at that point but the overarching thesis is how can we bring the move language to Cosmos and there's a few different ways you can do that you can move module kind of like mlc with the evm module you can have a move Zone um so obviously fundamental layer one and then you can kind of do like the raw module thesis which is kind of what we're going with if you have the move execution environment you can have it published with Celestia and you don't need a consensus mechanism um and you can have IBC enable that um so I think that is the direction you're going to be a because having five different

blockchains um isn't great for a company to do at early stage and then B um having going more to the modular thesis allows you to tap into feeding systems um while leveraging the underlying text stack so if you have a movie in this module you can build on top of avalanche you can build on top of Celestia's World kit and then obviously enable at the dimension or something and then you can even bring the op stack and be the move VMware optimism stack so that allows us to be flexible it allows SDK to be flexible um and that's kind of where we're heading at with Cosmos play okay and would what would it take to then have uh the movement um movement framework or specifically

like move VMS be uh compatible with IBC is that something you guys are working on or that we should expect from you guys yeah it should be IBC enable within the six months time frame um a because it's a group called Landslide that's worked again making a lunch itself IVC enabled um so if their testing goes live well and our test event goes it should be out of the box compatible um but even if that doesn't work out our slicer Roll-Ups for Galaxy compatible if that doesn't work out yeah polymer able to Zike ZK um obviously enable anything so um again if it's a one okay so you mentioned Landslide that's interesting so with Landslide here the idea would be that

um to move tokens in and out of move from Cosmos you would go through Landslide first through IBC and then using Avalanche warp messaging go from landslide to movement so it's sort of like there's still a hop between well I think I mean you can use a decks for example you have a DEX on M1 you can use average string to communicate a transaction between our chain and Landslide and then let us I can communicate that transaction to insert Cosmos protocol with IBC so you're essentially leveraging the two bridging protocols that are native you don't need layers here you're doing X floor you don't need insert Bridge okay got it yeah I mean obviously like the ideal solution is for like everything to be IBC compatible and sort

of have native IBC uh compatibility um I guess like taking a step back a little bit you know what's your like I tweeted I tweeted this earlier today it's like you know I think that thinking about ecosystems and crypto you know we it's like oh there's a move ecosystem or there's like the ethereum or VM equal system and there's Cosmos and Solana whatever I feel like these distinctions are going to become less and less relevant over time and the way I'm thinking about this is like look looking back at Computing you know if you look at if you look back like 20 years ago there was a really broad Chasm between you know Linux and windows and uh you know Macintosh at the

time um and very little compatibility between those uh those Computing environments But as time grew by as time went on uh and um and the the stack say like the application stack um became well more modular and and also uh more abstracted now the the the the differences between those operating systems are at least like from a user perspective is very limited you know you people you walk into any office people are using Macs people are using PCS they're using Linux and interoperating through this other layer right which is the internet yep where do you see how do you see that do

you think this is a fit analogy for crypto and what do you think needs to happen I for for better interoperability to um to essentially allow this uh this vision for you know all this um uh all the state to essentially become interoperable yeah I think is this a discussion we were I was having with a few folks um I think the cause was Direction a is going to Trend to a direction of the SDK becomes less important and IBC becomes the most important innovation from Cosmos I think most people will agree

that IVC is standard and the thing that's going to survive um I think if we can have a level interoperability across ecosystem um where users don't know what bridge they're using or users don't know infra they're using that's when you kind of get to a level where you can finally have um interoperability to the max extreme right now there's like eight different Bridges and if you want to use a different Bridge you have to like wrap the asset if unwrapped the asset um and there's like it's a whole hurdle I think if there's a world where it could be IBC it could be what messaging it could be whatever bridging protocol works and no matter what channel you're on a wake system you're on the bridging solution isn't known to the user when you're on a wallet you want to swap

between chains it just gives you the best rate and you swap between that whatever bridging mechanism is used that's like that doesn't really matter um so I think once you get to the level of bridging abstraction that Sony hasn't been really powerful something that we're working on as well is when you have different systems and trying to bring in unified execution layer the question is what bridge are you using and our answer is it doesn't matter it matters what's the lowest fees what's lowest latency what's more secure and then we provide the best solution for the user and the user doesn't care what bridge they're using and I think most 99 users truly don't care what bridge they're using this one their ass is transferred yeah but like so if you look at if you come back to this Computing example like

the interoperability of in Computing doesn't happen at the lower layers it happens at the higher layer right it happens um it happens at the at the application layer almost right um I mean there there is interoperability I guess I mean like so we have like it we agree on standards like like TCP but uh if you if we're talking about the Computing layer we didn't create better standards for like Unix machines to talk to Max to talk to Windows we develop better standards at the application layers for those for applications for people to talk to each other um yeah how does that overlap with with crypto do you think I think that happens

at STK level right like I touched on a minute first opens cause there's so many chains there's so many different sdks so many clis it's a very fragmented approach I think that's what the next step in this Innovation cycle is going to look like April wall perspective if you're deploying a Dap on SDK it's one wallet whether it's circles new wallet it launched um virtual apis or NPC wallets or different Technologies where users don't know that you're using system wallet there's a specific um in for play um they're just able to deploy your smart contracts use adapt um without Wonder wondering what technology user the application infrastructure so I think there can be a large level of abstraction at the application infrastructure level which in our case

and most new chains cases is the SQL sdks what the developers interacting with it's how they're developing smart contract it's how they're communicating with the protocol and right now it's a very fragmented approach um with different shades even like app plus SDK is different from The Suite okay so right now if you're a move Builder and you learn your language now there's two different sealis there's two different sdks two different documentation sets um it's a headache right so if we can develop a centralized or one set standard for SDK um kind of like how Java has the Java SDK right you don't no no like questions that I was just SEC everyone uses and everyone built on top of it and now you have um great Innovation SDK Javas SDK has also been area upon and now pretty much

ever uses that if we get to a point whether it's us with ethereum what's consensus whether it's Cosmos that's one unified like a software development kit um I think that solves pretty much 90 of the hassles um developers face so where can people learn more about movement and uh what's on the roadmap for you guys yeah so we are still technically in stealth but not really um so we'll be coming out next we'll be coming out next month with their ways announcement um developer docs test net it's also Alpha is done um so it'll be launched shortly as well as incentivized testnet for some airdrop Alpha

cool well Rishi I learned a lot about move today which which is great because uh and uh and also movement so thanks thanks so much for coming up I appreciate the time step anytime