Modular Interop with Neutron Org

Transcript

welcome back to the rollup High Roller Community as always nothing on the rollup is to be ConEd as Financial advice we are just an Educators in the defi space toss us a quick like give us a share a repost send it to a friend who may want to watch this and finally give us a sub or a follow it means the world to help support credibly neutral educational content in def5 we're here to educate Empower and enrich you and let's jump in what's going on guys welcome back to the rollup to today we have a very special modular episode uh we're going to be uh talking with the CEO of hron labs uh is it Spa yeah it's designed to be confusing I

pronounced it Spade but any pronation will do awesome all right well we're here with Spade today um and we're gonna be we're gonna be digging through uh the modular ecos system here uh Spade you were on uh you were on um a while back a few months ago and we were that was like the precipice of modularity it was like just starting to come out and uh we were talking quite a bit about kmm um and how interoperability happens in a modular ecosystem so maybe we can we can kind of do like a quick synopsis on that point and then we can start to Branch into all the new things that are happening in the modular ecosystem um so first and foremost kind of like uh let's recap like what does modularity mean to

you and then how how does uh interop work in the modular ecosystem yeah absolutely um I think the idea of the the fundamental idea of modularity is the idea that there is no single machine that fits every use case perfectly basically anytime you're building a system you're making design trade-offs and therefore if you have the ability to pick to essentially segment what you need to do into multiple segments and then pick the right solutions for each of these segments um then you can provide more scalability better better features uh better security better decentralization

um what whatever is it is that you're trying to optimize for by picking the right solutions for it you're able to to build it better faster um cheaper than if you were trying to you know make one thing that did everything perfectly which usually you probably won't be able to do anyway um and so like this has like implication in terms of like the blockchain infrastructure itself um and we've seen like as as you mentioned kind of like the the rise of Celestia and its ecosystem as well as like Alternatives um in the da sector um I think this has been like top of mind for everyone in the market for quite a few months now um but but I think there's also sort of like a another kind of like more horizontal layer of like how do you then

connect these um these pieces these ecosystems and these applications that exist in the in the modular realm right because they you know they they take these features from various service providers and ecosystems but then how do you ensure that at the end of the day from the users perspective right there's a cohesive kind of like experience whereby sure I might be jumping from one stack to the other or in between rollups that are on the same da layer like for example on Celestia assuming everything continues to go well you know we're we're looking at a world in which there there's going to be like you know dozens maybe hundreds of of of rollups that exist on on this layer um How do you make it seamless for a user to just like go from one application to the other

because at the end of the day that's kind of you know what what really matters right the the technology is super important but the use case is at the end of the day what justifies the technology and so I think like we're seeing a lot of like very exciting developments um there's a lot of like fundamental work being done on like security models and like um you know proving Technologies um can we do like ZK proof aggregations in order to um make basically like bridging super fast and cheap between all of these rollups um but in you know in kind of like the initial stages of this happening there some of like not all of these Solutions already exist and you still need to connect these things right like how are users going to bridge into these um

these domains how are they going to start interacting with these applications and so like this is I think the the thought that kind of led us to be um I think on the Forefront of providing the solution there we worked very closely with Lane and Celestia to launch Nexus which is um sort of like the the first bridge to the modular realm it's a implementation of iper Lane between neutron and the rollets on Celestia allow you to essentially oneclick bridge for example like Tia but also other assets directly into any of the rollups that are on Celestia including like arbitrum as well like menta and arbitrum and a few others um and yeah that has been like a super um a

kind of like an exciting experience because we've seen sort of like this Rush of users especially like in the first few days when the rollups were launching like um just basically you know bridging funds are like trying out these new technologies these new e ecosystems that were being borned um so yeah very cool we we've spoken a lot about Celestia on this channel um actually our our last podcast which is not released yet but is going to be released in the next week or two is with Nick white so we were grilling him on all of the Celestia architectures the mental models uh data availability data availability sampling and and generally how Celestia is organized and how

rollups are are leveraging that technology and building on top of it um so it's very very cool to see uh Neutron and see hyperlane kind of work together to provide the infrastructure and access um for these these Celestial rollups that that still provides a cohesive and a seamless experience to move across these rollups um so let's let's hone in on the interoperability like like to paint the picture for for those who are are watching like Celestia and and modularity like gives way to all of these new rollups that are just kind of like freckled across the entire ecosystem now traditionally because

these are modular they're somewhat disconnected but that's where Neutron and Lane they they come in and are now building the paths between these rollups so could you unpack like what the interoperability solution is to navigate between these Celestial rollups what does hyperlane do and then what does neutron do and and maybe by kind of like enumerating what it is that each of you do individually um you know we could we could come to a more clear understanding of how interoperability Works between these rollups yeah absolutely um not sure what happened with my camera here give me a sec it's okay we got a

closeup we can uh we can also edit this out so no worries does that does that question make sense yeah it does actually um it makes a whole ton of sense I'm just not sure what's going on with the camera though um do you mind if I just like reload the thing or is it going to break break anything um I yeah I think it's I think it's fine to reload okay thank you you know I think currently the there's like a few different functions right there's connecting the rollups to the base layer um via Neutron there's connecting um the rollups to General flows and graphs of liquidity and assets and then there's like connecting rollups together right um I think the the first s like step is to understand that um contrary to

other platforms Celestia intentionally chose not to have an execution environment and this is done for a very very good reason which is that it allows it to become a better more optimized um data availability layer essentially right there's no other operations that kind of like crowd block space and you know the machines power let say um and and as a result it provides a better service right it does have a few consequences in that you can't just go and deploy a bridge contract like you would on another platform between the rollup and the Celestia based layer essentially and so instead what you currently have to do is you have to bridge from Celestia to another chain and then from that chain into the rollup

and so what Neutron does what Neutron and Ian do actually is Neutron serves as this second base in which you can do an ABC transfer which is a very very secure bridging mechanism that essentially um has both blockchains verify each other's blocks in order to ensure that the messages are correct once once you've sort of like done that that bridge transaction we've designed Nexus so that when you're triggering this transfer it includes information that gets passed onto the hyperlane contract that then um basically trigger the transfer or the action onto like to to to bring the tokens to the rollup right and as a result of this you're

essentially offering like a oneclick flow for anyone to go between like from from the Celestia base layer to the rollup and vice versa right and by doing so and also because Neutron is well connected to the rest of the liquidity graph you essentially turn like you provide a oneclick sort like key in hand solution to rollups looking to bootst their ecosystem to really plug themselves into the entire liquid deph of the ecosystem right because like you can connect through axar to ethereum and other like ecosystems you can connect through Wormhole to like ethereum other ecosystems BB and what have you um there's the whole of IBC one hop away um extra extra and that allows essentially whatever form of capital and whatever user is interested in joining the

ecosystem to do so with like very very low friction essentially um now the beauty of hyperlane as a framework um is that it's fully permissionless right so any rollup can customize its security module deploy an instance of hyperlane and then connect point to point to point to any of the other deployments of iper Lane right and so the idea is that like you know we're not trying to build like a mode in which we're locking developers or their ecosystems in right we're simply like helping them bootstrap the tools that they like that they can use to connect to the rest of the ecosystem and its liquidity and and users essentially right and then you know each

ecosystem can decide on its own terms what security properties it requires for connecting with others as well as sort of like the um the ecosystems that it wants to connect to and the ecosystems that it doesn't really um care enough to really like take these steps um for man we are so early like the the the all of this is infrastructure right like this is all about like providing developers and Builders the tools for them to to connect uh their chains with other chains um so we are we are still on the precipice of like like the the user experience and the scale that will kind of like bring on Mass option um which

makes me makes me very bullish and very optimistic for the future because we're still we're still solving these uh these puzzles at the base layer and there are you know so many opportunities to onboard users on layers on top of that um but this is the Primitive work that needs to get done in order to build those applications on top so I've got a couple of questions kind of like at the base layer for for the the interrupt solution to happen you know let's say there's multiple rollups that use Celestia for da do the does the bridge send tokens from roll up to roll up or does it send from

roll up to base layer and then base layer to roll up well so it depends essentially um if by base layer you mean Celestia it probably doesn't serve as kind like the other intermediary Hub because it doesn't have execution layer and so the the the Hop would rather be um the hyperlane contracts on Neutron in that case um that being said as I said you can deploy I Lane mailboxes on your own terms and so if you want to create a connection between say like mana and arbitrum um you can do so directly actually and you don't need to go to the iane team or the neutron team and ask them for permission you can just take the contracts and deploy them there's

like versions of them that support like DVM as well as km wasm and most of the so like leading um virtual machines and so you can just go and create the bridge that you want to have essentially right and this you know like why is that um I I think the idea is there's a bit of a tendency to sort like create modes around these connections that sort like ecosystems depend on um which you know is is is is all good and is bankable I guess um but it does restrict the ability of like projects to really retain sovereignty over the decisions that they're making for their environment as well as for the assets that their protocol issues there there

was this case for example with um you know Lio recently has been um enabling rep State teeth and state eth to um be brought into other ecosystems to be deployed in their defi um applications um but every time that that happens there's a sort of a question whereby if relying only on one Bridge provider you it it makes things a lot more straightforward but competition can also lead to sort of like suboptimal effects in the sense that if you end up with multiple Bridges enabling the bridging for the asset you end up with multiple denominations that are not fungible and you end up with

no control from the Dows from from the Dow onto like exactly how they're bridged right and so if your Dow is minting this asset and then eventually decides that look the the risk of you know X model of bridging is not something that we're comfortable with anymore we want to enable X feature to make it more secure or X feature to make it more appealing to users um you can't really do this unless you know third party Dows and teams kind of like do the work um with you to sort like change their own systems which is a lot less convenient but with like permissionless interoperability you actually retain sovereignty over the mechanisms the bridges the rails that are used to move assets across and so you retain that optionality long term to

um shape the bridging strategy that you have as the ecosystems and as the Technologies evolve right um for example like today IBC is probably one of the most um robust implementations of bridging out there it's it's doing you know orders of magnitudes more volume than most other um bridge implementations and it's doing so with you know a fairly clean track record um which is you know surprising for bridge technology which has historically been like the target of a number of of attacks and so the you know you can develop an IBC based module EG you can have the same verification logic um as IBC does implemented in in an ICM for IP

Lane right so if if you wanted you could create a bridge that start with just a simple multisig that signs on transactions and then upgrade into you know something like IBC and then potentially one day when the technology for ZK proving are mature enough you can replace your ISM with something that uses ZK proof to essentially like verify that the messages are are correct right and so essentially it allows you to control um who you're connecting with and on what terms you're connecting with them and on what security guarantees you're you're willing to to basically connect essentially right very cool yeah I think you know th this is uh this is like as a result of like all all of the infrastructure and

all of the development that's happened in the modular ecosystem um and like we just continue to see this proliferation and specialization of tooling um IBC is like a great example of that in the bridging ecosystem um and now we're we're we're starting to see some other interoperability Solutions come up so you know you you you and hyperland have been able to create this this seamless bridging and permissionless bridging experience H have you and you also mentioned how arbitrum and there's a couple of other networks that aren't inherently like Cosmos related or or Celestia related that are also available

to bridge on hyperlane and and Nexus is there any kind of like IBC to evm uh compatibility that you guys use is there like is there like a union uh that that enables this these like Sovereign interop Solutions have you considered kind of adding evm support and you know I if not why not and if so like how how and why did you did you choose to do that yeah for sure so I mean like you can deploy an iper Lane mailbox to an evm Network today right so I think I think it's called orbit the arbitrum rollup that uses Celestia for for da um I could be wrong though so

please check um like please feel free to fact like fact check me here um but essentially yeah you can deploy an iper Lane route to an evm Network you can deploy an IVM like a an iper Lane route between like neon and ethereum Main net today actually um in fact that that's what's being used to develop a potential uh Bridge aggregation system between ethereum and neutron to allow for the secure bridging of like high value assets as well as like governance instructions so that you could have a protocol on ethereum that controls in outpost on Neutron or VI Vera um so like all of this is basically like possible today and it's being worked on today now for IBC specifically the main hurdles

here are basically the fact that contrary to Cosmos chains where the light clients are run in protocol and therefore don't cost gas in ethereum they're not in the base layer itself and so if you want to implement a like client of another Network you then have to verify all this information um in a small contract itself which um Not only would cost you know absurd amounts of gas but actually runs into the gas limits per blocks on the ethereum network right so instead of doing this all on chain kind of like in the straightforward but brtish manner um the what what most Protocols are working on to enable um like bridging to and from etherum with the properties of IBC is to essentially um ZK the system so

that you would do the proof verification well you would do the proof computation of chain based on this data and then you would simply submit the proof on the ethereum main net and then it would be verified there and as long as it's verified you know that indeed the the connection is secure the messages are valid it corresponds to the state of the other blockchain um all of the properties that you want to have in order to sort like guarantee the security of the of the bridge essentially um and there's a number of projects that are doing this in in you know in in very interesting ways I think like you mentioned Union I think composable polymer and and a few others are all like very interesting teams and and projects trying to um find the best approach to solving exactly this problem got it okay and you you did you

know that that was a great explanation of kind of like uh uh laying the problem out the problem statement out how would how would hyperlane and and neutron and Nexus integrate these Technologies um into the existing permissionless solution that that you guys have with Nexes that that's a really good question so I mean Neutron itself as a like as a settlement layer as a defi ecosystem is um it's sort of bridge agnostic right um it it's a permissionless network and as a result of this you can essentially use any bridge that you want with it you can deploy any bridge that you want on it um

so so there's kind of like this to take into account that being said there are projects um to essentially aggregate these um these Technologies in order to create bridges that are resistant to the failure of Any Given Bridge provider so that you know if any one provider gets hacked or their Network somehow is destroyed attacked by North Korea or what have you um the entire Bridge itself is actually not compromised um so that that's one approach that I find interesting um it does have impact on like um gas cost and such if you're forced to call a number of different Bridge contracts especially in the a main net but this can be like

worked around by essentially batching transactions so that users essentially go through an underr or Market that take on the risk of reorg of ethereum itself and that is service essentially is provided for a very low fee because the bridge that underlies the transfer is actually extremely secure and so you have U essentially like a liquidity provid provider um whether they're active or passive whether it's a liquidity pool or an entity that is similar to a market maker um is kind of like irrelevant but essentially they provide the liquidity on the other end and they just wait for enough of the transactions to be accumulated on one side to essentially settle through the the very secure Bridge right um so that's one one approach that's

interesting in like making these connections between ecosystems more robust um the the other thing is um there's a good amount of work that's going into sort like enabling the more advanced features and applications that exist on protocols like IB like IBC to exist on these other Bridges right and I think there's there's likely going to be some degree of standardization eventually as more and more Protocols are going to want to have access to these things right because imagine your an application on Cosmos today you're able to start creating accounts on other blockchains to hold assets and use their defi applications you're able to

retrieve data like from Neutron you're able to retrieve data from other chains so that you can minimize the Reliance on on offchain oracles and you can essentially have your own you know way to read data from other blockchains those features are like extremely useful in order to build more robust cross chain def5 protocols so that you can provide access anywhere and you can essentially provide a seamless onboarding flow from users essentially at the end of the day the experience that we want to get towards is um wherever you are with your assets currently if you want to use this protocol or more so not not even use this protocol but more so access this one product or opportunity that you found and that you'd like to benefit from you can do so in one click wherever you are um because the stack is so well

connected together that all of the minute operations that might be happening to actually bring your assets where they need to be for this to happen are completely irrelevant to your experience as as a user and so like there's a bunch of competing standards that are emerging which I I find um exciting because it means that there the market will have a number of options to basically choose from in order to get sort like to the best sort like tradeoffs right but I do expect that a number of these standards will continue to exist um and and persist in the market so that that's kind of like my my my Outlook there yeah hence uh hence the advantage of uh modular architecture um and and by

further standardization we're able to achieve this uh this like interchangeable part sort of framework um which allows these projects to specialize deeper and deeper into the stack provide like more specialized tooling and then and then hence like just frankly like better Tooling in that regard um and then it it uh kind of opens up the question of like connecting them uh with one another underneath the hood to provide users a seamless experience that's kind of what it seems like we're doing uh like there's this process of unbundling where like the specialized uh Builders are are focusing on each particular vertical of the stack

and then there's projects that are focused on bundling those back together so that users have a more seamless experience and I think like because we have we go through these like this pattern of unbundling and bundling back together we're able to just kind of like put everything on the table see where things are broken or inefficient improve that in that particular piece and then when we bundle the thing back together the entire stack is more efficient overall because the weakest link is now improved so I think this is a very cool like pattern that we tend to see in these in these development cycles of of blockchain technology and it it is very very cool to see like this entire unbundling process with modularity and now the interoperability Solutions start

to bundle those back up together for the benefit of the end user and the the comprehensive cohesive seamless experience that that users have have come to enjoy um and yeah that I I think this is like a very very cool um uh pattern that that has uh that has become the norm uh in these development Cycles I think you could call it the Double Diamond process right like first you expand everything and then you sort of like refine and you do this um over and over again to get better iterations every time yeah Double Diamond I like that sounds sounds rare sounds valuable cool man well speaking of uh speaking of

value uh the neutron uh staking module like ntrn is there anything that like you know we we like to have like an actionable set of uh of kind of procedures that like our community is able to like follow so that they can get involved um and it seems like there's lots happening underneath the hood with Neutron is there anything that our community can do like staking Neutron or anything that they can do to get involved so that they can you know be a uh participant in the ecosystem maybe a recipient of future airdrops if they're staking like what what is it so that like our community can get involved and kind of make sure that they're part of this modular interoperability path

yeah for sure um so one of the considerations like first Neutron is um the first chain on r get it secur security which is a it's the cosmos hub's reaking implementation essentially um and as a result of this it's like Ann itself is actually not a staking asset what secures the newon blockchain is atom staked on Cosmos Hub so like sure you can you can definitely go ahead and get some exposure to add to Adam if you would like to um and then stake that um the Alternatives is I think you know like the the probably the best first step as a user is just like try bridging to Neutron um and try out the ecosystem right um

there's there's ways for you to essentially Bridge from wherever you are uh that might be like satellite that might be through the skip API and the various bridges that the dabs themselves provide um there's a number of connections to ethereum for example regardless of where you're from um it's likely that the token you're using to bridge will be accepted as gas so for example if you have like Tia or rsti teeth or usdc all of these things you can use to to to pay for gas and then you can discover the entire like def ecosystem right I think like good candidates for first experiences would be um like astroport which is a a well-rounded like decentralized exchange um Mars is also a great credit protocol which is um

providing Advanced features like credit accounts so the idea is that you know you can essentially move any type of collateral into the protocol and use this as your margin to either margin trade or eventually potentially um you know trade pers for example um and there's like Apollo which is launching today on astroport actually um which is providing like automated strategies for LSD tokens including rep sck teeth and others um so there's you know a bunch of things to to discover one thing that I think might be interesting to to folks is that if you're like the The newon Da is basically designed in a way whereby it tries to minimize the opportunity cost

of participating in governance so that you could essentially provide liquidity to aex um and then the intern that you would use for that if you decide to do to do so could be Depo like could basically be counted by a vault of the governance instance so that sure you're lping but you're still you know you own these and therefore you own the voting power and therefore you can participate in governance right um so you know like check out governance. neutral. org if you're interested in getting into the the governance there um you know to to be fully fair and transparent I would say that like there's one issue on the user experience front currenty which is that there's a number of solutions that

are available for each of these actions but they're not super well put together so that you can pick which one you want to use from the get-go um and this is something that we're working on essentially and so like in a couple of weeks or months you'll be you'll be able to essentially like take all of these basic actions on the network um from a single nicely like designed interface where you can see your entire portfolio and what you're doing on on the network you're able to participate in governance and vote you're able to sort of like swap or bridge in and out of the chain and that that kind of stuff right um all of all like from one sort like home base um so I'm I'm excited about that to be fair yeah on once again like just representative of how early we are in

this in this trajectory um you know we're we're still like go going and connecting these rollups together um and part of that is also bringing together the the applications Under One Roof so that someone is aware of and and able to compare across all of these existing Solutions um yeah so I I'm I'm very bullish very optimistic to see like what what happens next in this interoperability story and uh I think there's been some amazing work by Celestia by you know all all of these modular pieces and and projects um and yeah shout out shout out to Neutron for uh for pulling all of those Solutions together and making sure that interop is

real yeah for sure I mean I think you know my bet is on integrated applications um I think the the idea is right like there's a number of stacks that are best at specific things right and you should be building on the stack the best suit what you're trying to builds requirements essentially right and so you know from this an analysis we kind of like coin this concept of an integrated application an integrated application is an app that doesn't simply have access to um synchronous composability with other smart contracts on a platform but is also able to deeply integrate with the Bas layer and the feature that it provides um in order to provide better experiences to user higher performance

more security better products essentially but also able to interoperate natively with other applications on other Stacks so that you essentially um get once again like better flows but also more Capital efficiency and the ability to scale that protocol without having to redeploy it like every time that you're you're trying to expand the protocol to to a new domain um and I think like the reason my bet is on this thesis particularly is because it like provides the Best of Both Worlds right you have the Deep integration that provides you with more advanced features like the ability to customize like how block production happens the ability to retrieve like data from the the chain

itself in which like an oracle can be run um the sort like the network and scale economies of having a shared environment um with the ability to directly interoperate with any of the other applications in this s like Myriad of rollups and roll apps being created these days like natively out of the box right so essentially what you get at the end of the day is you have a very Advanced stack that provides you very Advanced features in order to build applications you couldn't build on more generalized standard layers like ethereum um as well as the ability not to really choose which Market to be in but rather choose to be in all of them

because you're able to like really directly tap into their user base and liquidity from anywhere they they are essentially right yeah this is going to upgrade applications themselves so so there is like that's the point right like I think you know through throughout this discussion you've you've sort of like highlighted how early we are as you know Builders sort of like focusing on infrastructure and I I fully agree with you I think you're right and I think to be fair this has been one of the blind spots of of the industry which is like we can get the best infrastructure ever if nobody starts building applications then you know it's still still not the full vision being realized right and so like what we're trying to do is really um empower the teams that are actually

building these applications today right we try to look at exactly what their problems are their limitations and what we see is that like some of the best teams out there are basically limited by the the layer that they're in in their mechanism design and such they're trying to bring Innovative products into the market and they're failing to do so because of you know gas constraints or inability to control certain portion of like the stack itself and so we're trying to unlocking the these things right this like what what I think is like an an interesting representation of this is kind of like the story of the the folks at Duality Labs um so they're a very talented team of Engineers and me and like mechanism um designers and they started their journey in ethereum they

um helped design like incentives and Market structures for a number of dexas in the ethereum ecosystem and when it came to building their own product they wanted to make a um an exchange design that would basically have the best features of both amm and Order books um and would work well on kind of like you know shared decentralized Stacks um whilst also in like using this to basically create fair market structures right and when they started implementing it they started running into the limitations of the the the evm on ethereum Main net and so that led them to like reconsider and eventually move to Cosmos where they started building an app chain um called The Duality chain

essentially um and like fast forward a couple of months we like contributors to Neutron and contributors to Duality met and we just realized that we had like a very similar Vision as to what we were trying to achieve um bringing these products bringing this infrastructure building like a new generation of D5 products um and sort of like realized that actually made a lot of sense to collaborate and you know that sort of like all culminated in duality being s like merged into the neutron binary to make it available to the entire ecosystem that's building on Neutron um so that they can benefit from the advanced features of this like this sort like impr protocol Dex infrastructure um and yeah like that has been kind of like

wild but it has culminated um last year very um like basically just before the holidays into an upgrade that successfully brought all of the code of this other blockchain into the neutron blockchain so that anyone deploying a SM contract on Neutron can now LEL it to build more efficient amm and such very very cool yeah I mean these these optimizations I think we're going to continue to see them and like this this is part of um kind of like this this like bundling up in this combination of technologies that we're going to start to see to create these more efficient Stacks like so the this was a combination that kind of occurred at the chain level and I imagine that like what we are going to

see is more of these more of these combinations happen and probably at a at I'm not sure at what level they'll happen but they'll happen because that we have we have these modules that are able to connect with one another so if we have you know a module that allows developers to build more efficient amm that is a a a tooling and a piece of code that's able to connect uh with with multiple other other modules that give give these developers settlement they give it uh these modules give developers amm they give them business logic they give them uh sequencing and data availability and all of them come together because now we're able to we're

able to mix and match and plug in these modules with one another to to optimize for certain use cases not to say that you know one one flavor combination of modules is going to to fit you know all of the applications but um now devel ERS have multiple choices at their fingertips and they're able to optimize this stack for their particular use case yeah for sure I mean I you know I think this was exactly the design philosophy that led to the rise and Adoption of like the cosmoses Decay um which exactly had this like modular approach to building components that could then be reused right and this this has led to like great achievements like I think recently last year we had

like dydx move from Stark like Stark net to um a cosmos SDK blockchain for exactly this reason right it allowed them to essentially build a blockchain very fast but also designed the components that they where they wanted to innovate on um to to provide a better product right and I think we're going to see this more generally um in the and actually I think we're starting to see this as well in the so like rollup world as well with like I think leaning candidates being like The Sovereign SDK for example is essentially in my opinion going to be the Rolls-Royce of like up as DK by enabling you to build like ZK rollups with you know in paralleled E so yeah like you know I think this is this

is definitely something to to to to watch out for because it will make the ecosystem like grow at a at at a much faster rate essentially yeah that's the The Sovereign SDK right yep correct very cool do you think there's anything missing like currently that you know maybe you guys have on the road map and you did mention kind of like putting all of these components inter into one you know easy to understand user interface is there any like other you know activations that are happening on Neutron that you're particularly excited about in the near future yeah I think so Mars the marsh protocol Dow is working on a very massive upgrade to their protocol um which sort of

coincides or will likely coincide with the release of a um very exciting liquid staking protocol on Nutri on which you know subject to governance approval might be like Li on on Cosmos essentially um and those two things like synergize particularly well with each other because they allow you know sticking they essentially allow you to participate in one of the products that has the mo like the most clear product Market fit in the industry which is like really really good um margin or per trading um with assets that are yield bearing as collateral and with like very nice kind like

connective properties between the liquidity and your ability to you know take on that leverage efficiently and synchronously um so this I think is going to be a product that folks are like that I personally find like extremely exciting and that's going to be like coming out soon and around the same time and so I think it's likely that there there might be um you know initiatives to sort of like bolster the the initial adoption phase of of all of these products such as like you know more widespread like liquidity Mining and and and and such and potentially like air drops or or what have you um so I don't know exactly how it's going to happen but but that's probably what I'm most excited in in in terms of like the

shortterm kind like Outlook of the the growth of the def ecosystem very cool very cool and as we sort of wrap up here I guess I've just got like some miscellaneous questions that that would be great for our our community to understand um Neutron is is part of the cosmos ecosystem and and therefore has proof of stake validators uh with atom staked in in Neutron validators is there a component of light clients at all to to uh kind of tap into um like a full node of of neutron or it is yeah I guess like does does neutron have light

clients to uh do any kind of like data availability sampling or is that outsourced to a data availability protocol like cesa so neutron as a settlement layer technically has what it takes to do simple da you could publish data to Neutron blocks um and you know it's it's likely that some rollups will actually do just that um that being said for data availability sampling spe specifically what you're looking for for is like Celestial light nodes being run on the chain and then posting these attestations on on the network right um we've actually like like um our CTO has

actually designed and well speced out let's say um a module that would do exactly just that um it essentially like allows validators like Neutron validators to run light nodes of the Cs blockchain um and then use this to attest to the availability of specific chunks of data um in order for them to be used in the verification for example of like rollup that use neutron as a settlement platform where they're validating bridge is to be done you know with full information and better like security properties essentially um so yeah it's completely technically possible now more generally like the way IBC works is by having like clients of

each chain that it that one chain is connected to basically run in protocol as well so yeah there's also that which is that you know Neutron currently contains a number of like clients of other Cosmos blockchains including Celestia which allows it to have IBC as a bridging framework between these chains essentially very cool awesome I think that that's a huge unlock like uh it it's it's the direction that we see like not only ethereum going with uh with its uh data availability and how like it's kind of taking this modular like rollup Centric route um and then now atom and Cosmos which have has taken

the modular route since the beginning um you know it's starting to like outpace ethereum in some of these uh specific areas of development so it's very very actually think what what we're getting to see is like a coming together or like if if I wanted to meme this I would be like the real merge is the merge between ethereum and Cosmos actually because like what I think is super fascinating about the history of the space is that like both of these ecosystems um were thinking about the same problem um and came to different solutions that end up being complimentary whereby the rollup Centric road map of ethereum is now creating all

of these new domains and a floating kind of like the compute um and the the the the resource requirements to all of the that it secures so that the Bas layer itself can focus on like the highest value transactions as well as just like making these secure and storing their data um but what it does create is like a need for methods of communications between these various domains right and as a like this is not something that has been solved currently right like bridging systems U between the various Roll-Ups are not standardized a lot of them rely on like trusted multisig um some of them are moving towards governance which is likely a much better trust assumption but there's essentially like a whole lot to be done in this

regard but it turns out that you know Cosmos has been working on this for like years now essentially right and IBC is the result of this work it's it's a protocol that has like much much much Superior trust assumptions and has um and is abstract enough that there's a number of applications that you can build on top of IBC right so like we we mentioned a couple in this call already whereby you know you can build applications on top of a IBC that allows um small contracts to retrieve data from other chains trustless without the need of like you know having a third priority of chain provider and like running computers and posting this on on chain and you trusting them you can just verify the other blockchain um it allows

you to have you know token transfers of course but you can also have like you know routing multi hops you can have uh the ability for smart contracts to control ining accounts um and use these accounts to essentially pass messages like transactions of another rollup so that they can get executed there right and so like this degree of inoperability is something that is not solved for in ethereum today but that is sold in the cosmos world and so what what I think we're going to see is that you know ethereum and its rollups will eventually like converge with Cosmos so that we basically take the Best of Both Worlds right like I think the the bridging Technologies and like the standardized but extremely secure like approach will

pour into some of like some of the rollup ecosystem and may become used as like for example like it would make a whole lot of sense to use ABC to connect between the various like op stack rollups right um or or sort like have these abstractions so that it becomes really easy to connect These Chains using these kind of like models um and at the same time that will essentially like allow ethereum to continue progressing and progressing at a much faster rate in its sort like vertical scaling road map so yeah I think like Cosmos and ethereum coming together is likely is a trend that I'm watching out for and that I think will likely occur and that I think is like highly

beneficial to both ecosystems actually yeah makes a lot of sense for both the security practices the uh the security principles as well as the convenience to the end user yeah absolutely um and the other thing is that it's also like a market opportunity for like a number of the sort like hottest Trends in in the ecosystem today right like if you look at like e reaking is a big thing today but like who are going to be the customers of of reaking right well like customers chains are actually kind of like at the top of the list and in fact we see protocols like igen layer um sort of like starting to create these these Partnerships to bring the their they're reaking products to market right so here you go another piece of anecdotal

evidence yeah there we go we're I mean we're on the we're gonna we're gonna see um very cool to see like I ler kind of pop up with the reaking module we're gonna have some more conversations about like the risks around reaking um but I I think the in theory it it is very very cool to see them progress towards that route and kind of like squeeze more value out of these out of these ethereum validators um and then I mean this this is continuing the trend towards the world of a million rollups um and with all these execution environments I think we'll continue to see like more and more pop up and then as it a as the infrastructure layer continues to get even more well

connected I think that'll also pave the way for more rollups and more execution environments that are are executing on top of these settlement environments yeah absolutely cool man well this was a doozy um I didn't think we were going to go for almost an hour but uh but this was a fun conversation as we uh as we wrap up is there anything that you felt like uh you wanted to say that you didn't you didn't get a chance to say um yeah I mean so so Celestia probably has the coolest Ventra in the ecosystem like build whatever is just a perfect way to encapsulate what they're trying to do um you know I think like what we've been

trying to do with Hyper Lane and sort like what we discussed today is is basically something that you can coin in very similar manner of like you know connect whatever essentially um so I guess that would be my my closing note connect whatever yeah dude th this was awesome thanks for coming on this was fun and uh I look I look forward to connecting more with you in the future sounds good sounds like a plan thanks a lot