Misha Komarov: =nil; Foundation – The Marketplace for ZK Proof Generation #514

Transcript

welcome to epicenter the show which talks about the Technologies project and people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution I'm Brian Crain and I'm here today speaking with Misha komarov he's the co-founder of nil Foundation uh Neil Foundation is basically working on a Marketplace for zero knowledge proofs so we're gonna dive into what New Foundation is zero knowledge proof CEO knowledge proof Market I think this is one of the areas where there's been a lot of interest a lot of Buzz about it right there's a lot of investment in this area and yeah so really excited so thanks so much for joining us Michelle yeah thanks for inviting me so I you know I just mentioned right

like okay a lot of like ZK um interest happening now now an interesting thing about Neil Foundation is that you guys actually started in 2018 and uh and you know it says on the website kind of that this initial Focus was on sort of best practices for you know database Management systems for crypto and so I'm just curious if you can talk a little bit about how did this get started like what was the original vision for nail foundation and um yeah what is this database management system why is that important okay so let's go into that basically the reason why no foundation will start at

is because prior to that it's like uh me and uh well it's like what's that it's like we were together doing a fork of uh stimmit basically like European dedicated work of summit and I was kind of a fella who was responsible for all the technical part in there and uh it's like from my perspective I was dealing with all the technical issues with all the data management issues and I I literally it's like I was I was literally like in Pain by the absence of proper data management tools back then and well it's still kind of absent to be honest uh like people still struggle with like accessing ethereal data and yada yada so I was I was struggled with the absence of that and considering that all the stimulate stuff and all the cool stuff was actually kind of a social

network and something something you have you obviously were required to have you know proper data management I mean like proper one just like they do in traditional in traditional web industry so we had no such a thing back then and we still have no all such a thing so I was like so in April 2018 I was like Hey guys let's go do a dbms right I mean I don't want anybody to struggle that I don't want to struggle myself I don't want anybody to have that issues so that's what it was right so this will be like okay you want to have a database where like you store in there I don't know these are all the users these are all the posts and then like use that information to serve a web application yeah yeah since it was required for such a database to work in untrusted

environments like to be basically bft compliant right so it's like database for crypto right so I had to so so so we had to think about how to mix these two industries together to make it to make it basically to make it basically work to make it to make it suitable for hosts and BFD broadcast for hosting bft applications so yeah that's what it was that's that was the idea converts you can just use together yeah and again because the idea with this uh databases were basically I I'm curious if you can expand it a little bit more on this aspect of half the database be trustless did you kind of imagine that the user would have some way of verifying that

you know the database functioned in a particular way and you know sort of served the results in the right way that's one of the critical components because if you want if you want uh if you want like the dbms or like the database to work in untrusted environments you've got to be able you've got to be able to verify what's going on in there I mean you can't just like go with access for example somebody's data like ethereum's data or like some Roll-Ups data or like some other protocol data something something whatever you can just come in and uh you know and trust what what has been given to you because I mean this database could could easily just you know scoop yeah and uh this this this can result like from something very nasty so basically it is required and it was required to make the interaction with

this thing as trustless as possible because I mean like one more trust Point come on we don't want to be that trust Point all right so we do not want to have that responsibility on our hands so basically to make it as trustless as possible it was required for people which operate over some data and this database or through this database like over ethereum's data for example right it was required to make it to make them capable of uh like verifying whatever they have done for the sake of this it was required to have an instant it's like it's like a like provable institution environment right and uh so that's basically the desire and uh how to do this like Roblox Fusion environment it's like you also it's like beside the people it's like how to do

this I mean you gotta prove somehow what was executed um the most it's like the most convenient the most suitable thing which we had back then was some like modification of growth and uh you know some miracle constrained system uh based proof systems uh so that was the best fit back then and we were like um it's not sufficient it's not good and we would need much more than that so we started working on the cryptography suit with embedded approved systems in there and uh once we realized that okay it's like it's like the industry got to that point when there is when there is enough of like Tech and theoretical research available to make such an executable environment uh we were like okay well

one it's like blondification proof systems were introduced we got development we got them in the pursuit of ours another question arised it's like the second question which arised is that besides just proving the execution of whatever was done with the data inside the database you got to prove that the data which was taken as an input to this database was basically taken from the right place because otherwise I mean how can we how can you be sure that the data that you're operating over wasn't you know just made up out of nowhere that is actually for example ethereum's data right so for the sake of this we needed State and consensus proofs and uh that's how we got together basically with the zero foundation with me the foundation with a lot of foundation guys because that was

like our that was like our desire to do stay true some consensus groups and they were like the only ones which had any idea about this about this back tab and uh once we got this once we got together in 2021 this collaboration of hours evolved into the birth of DK Bridges I mean like so many projects are built in ziki Pages now right so but like back then it was back then it was like hey guys we need State troops you know how to do them we want to learn let's do something together so that was basically like it were just some ck version in general so that's that's like what it was so and uh when we it's like it's like in process of doing all that uh we were like yeah well it's quite a lot of circuits I mean

like very it's like too much circuits all right and they're very complicated and we don't want to do that like manually anymore because we've spent like a couple of years before that already I trapped in this circuit and uh we were like nah we're not gonna do that I mean probably somebody else has this kind of problems so we need a compiler for that let's just do a compiler for that so we took llvm I mean like just just a compiler like which everybody uses it like you know very solid and we just took it we made it provable so that's how zika lvm was more important I mean because because we were like sick and tired of building circuits like manually and apparently the rest of the market was also sitting tired of doing that and the proof Market is basically it was a ball it was born out of our

realization that all of those State Crews consensus proofs and state transition proofs we worked on for the sake of you know making this as transparent and as trustless as possible uh were really heavy and we were not willing to make like you know anyone to generate it themselves and we will always like we we didn't want to generate it ourselves so we were like okay well we'll just make a Marketplace since uh since yeah so and uh basically and basically we just slapped the marketplace on top of the same database we were doing and uh we were like okay well we were building the database we tried to make it as trustless as like you know as transparent as possible so we'll just slap it on top of it so this could also become like you know

decentralized and like distributed whatever whatever like purple generation that's what it was cool cool no I think that was very helpful actually I I think what would be great to talk a little bit about and you know I mean I think for some many people this will be familiar and for other people it's still kind of like maybe a little new but it sticked um some of the like use cases for ZK take right because what you mentioned right basically okay you want to have like this proven you know I have some code right and that's like provable so of course like sort of an obvious thing would be well you just use a blockchain for it right put it on the blockchain

it's not that simple right give me I mean I guess a bunch of the big downsides of that would be well now you have consensus so like your database is going to be maybe limited by the speed of consensus right and then a scalability and cost would be much worse and then maybe some other things might be yeah let's say if you want to have you know private data some off-chain thing being done uh let me expand on that it's like your apps this is the right one you're absolutely right when you're talking that uh okay of course you can prove your competition just put in it or just put in it in size or protocol and you know just Computing that but there is a Nuance that you can only compute uh inside such a protocol

it was such a protocol you can only compute uh something which which doesn't have uh which doesn't have a lot of like communication complexity because like when you come to communication complexity and when you when you need to compute something really big or really something really complex right it's like the problem the problem with all that with all that based computation is that you get basically limited by by the communication complexity that you cannot be that you kind of basically uh split the piece of computation you want to do to level parts to deploy them separately then to make them communicate between each other and this introduces a lot of overhead so you get kind of limited and uh that's not really that's suitable

when you have when this when this competition is decomposable right there's it's like uh there's uh there is like a very traditional trick in the DB bus world when you need to compute something over data it's like currently it's like what people do early right like for example in ethereum it's like people just do people just do basically like synchronized computation like over some transactions over like some I don't know replication packets and that's like across all of those nodes right so a traditional trick and DBS industry to overcome this is to introduce like Dynamic sharding but that's still not enough I mean it's like we realize that it's still kind of not enough in case you cannot dig compose the competition you want into little pieces which will not introduce communication complexity

hard enough like the large and author like you know big enough you know to kill the whole efficiency to kill efficiency like at all so when you have a big chunk of computation which cannot be decomposed you got it and it's easier it's cheaper it's faster to compute it somewhere and then just to put the result of this competition to some particle where you can operate with this results in uh like you know decomposed mana and uh and basically like you know with small chunks so that's what basically that's what basically it is about so we tried to cover so we basically try to cover we knew that it would be required like not only us the whole industry does this right it's like we it's like we knew that it would be required to be able to cover uh

decomposable computations which do not introduce a lot of computational complexity it's like you know for this basically and that's that's why we introduced kind of Charter to the DBS because it's traditional we just brought it in here it's like okay and the to cover the piece of computation which is not decomposable in which is not better to be decomposed which is just simpler to be computed somewhere and then to be proven and then to be like it used uh on some I don't know ethereum or like whatever anyway uh that's what for the combination of a proof Market was compiler exists it's basically like a Marketplace for approvable computations which cannot be decomposed that's what it is so that's what it makes sense and that's what it makes sense to use the

gate proof systems for this kind of combinations you mentioned like circuits and you mentioned um you know CK llvm right so now God please correct me if I'm understanding here is is correct right because like let's say you have like some computation and you say oh you want to prove this computation and then circuit basically means okay you develop a bunch of like equations no so then check this particular computation this is somebody else can then check that and then if something like the ZK llvm you then just do that for you know any code that's written using that VM and then you can just

verify anything written uh on this VM is that kind of it's uh not really because again it's like nil is again being weird right in here so basically what's going on in the industry currently it's like obviously yeah there are people which do custom circuits which do custom server with libraries for each particular application like uh like I don't know scroll did that all right for example they did very custom uh pretty good circuit I mean really good circuit for ZK VM they've built over like a couple of years and that's pretty good they used Halo 2 it works it's fine and uh all right that's how it was done before then uh people have started realizing that you can actually not to craft the

custom circuit for each particular piece of computation but to do just one circuit of some virtual machine and then to put the byte code of what of the computation you waterproof as an input to the circuit and then to prove this competition via this like you know enormously big ass VM circuit all right the problem which this thing which is like the problem which which two these two approaches introduce is that um for for example custom surface it's very expensive and very very like Troublesome to write them all right to implement them and to implement them properly is even harder I mean like even without it complains about that and that's you know that's the valid that's a valid concern it's like in case for example some roll-up or something it

turns out that custom circuit they wrote is on the constrained or it's just you know it just wasn't audited properly or something something somebody forgot something like just please don't forget anything guys if somebody if somebody forgot something in some circuit then turned out to be under constraint somebody will be able to prove uh to ethereum what actually didn't happen at all and then we will we will all get so that would be really bad if something if this happens and uh and and that's that's like the problem with custom service you can't know which moral side it's really complicated to to craft them it's really complicated to know what's going on it's really it's really hard to

make them secure the new ones with via circuits with just one with just one VM server is that you introduce an enormous overhead so basically the overhead with for example like custom circuits it's like NVM circuit and VM based computation ztvm-based computation is usually like at least 10 times at least 10 times in terms of cost and time so this is very again like introduces like a lot of overhead what is at least 10 times it's like it's at least 10 times it's like the complexity in terms of like approximation in terms of a circuit size in terms of the amount of competition you need to prove like for example let's say you want to prove a plus b right so if you do a custom circuit for it it's

going to be very simple it's actually going to be like okay let's just move a plus b you lay out this integration and you're like okay well this is error criticize this here here goes the oxidation of it and we're good if you do a plus b uh as like with the ZK VM circuit you basically prove uh not just a plus b but you prove the execution of the whole CPU I lost everything I've ever seen everything like all the byte codes everything everything it's up codes I should a lot of op codes which do in the end a plus b so that's you know just an almost overhead for doing just a plus b we kind of knew that we're not going to go with this overhead so we chose the way as we as they say in the middle which uh basically which basically about

introducing custom service for each particular piece of program yes but not manually but generating that automatically via compiler so you can still prove massive languages you can still prove I don't know like Ross disability CPP anything you want but it's going to be custom circuit for each particular part of computation there will be no overhead and in the same time you do not graph those circuits like manually so it's basically like right something in the middle that's what it is and how these automatically generated these custom circuits compiler that's where our compiler comes to comes to the stage that's what it is about okay so the compiler is basically like a program

that will take something like okay A plus b and then put out a custom circuit for it yeah or for example if you want to prove something really big you want to prove some I don't know like ml model or learning or something something you just put it in there there will be a custom circuit generate for it so there will be no overhead but in the same time you could you could use the code which was already written by I don't know like thousands of people out outside of the industry for example or I don't know game if you want to prove the game let's say you want to you want to let's say you want to prove that you speed run some game in some particular time all right like do my favorite example don't speed run so you can actually just put

the doomed code inside the compiler compiler compile a circuit for it and then to brag to your friends like hey I've prove that it's like I I can speed run to win this amount that beat me here goes the proof like of it on ethereum so that's what it is that's me that makes doable base and so with this compiler here I mean I mean I guess there's all kinds of different things that people may want to verify right it could be like maybe solidity code or it could be code on I don't know Solana or like some other blockchain or maybe some code that runs you mentioned the machine learning or something else so this compiler then it can basically take any kind of code and

output these custom circuits or like yep so any arbitrary programming language you can basically use for that it's like any programming language which is supported by llvm and there's quite a lot of compilers written for LL like there were there were a lot of Pilots well yeah for the last few years so that's pretty much like yeah that's quite a lot of languages it's like just in case fun fact it's like we have like an internal joke that you that you that you can actually produce a ckvm via sdkm or VR you okay so you can think basically for example evm interpreter for example evm1 right it's like classic EDM interpreter which is like which was around like since I don't know

2016 or like 2017 right you can just take it you can you can compile it to a circuit so you so you would get SDK evm Circle as an output of it is here as an output of a circuit compiler so something like this yeah because maybe one thing we can touch on replays is like a little bit of a detour potentially I mean people in crypto many people have been sort of aware of CK tech for a long time but I guess the main project right where we've kind of known ZK attack through is z cash you know basically said like okay we're gonna take you know do something like Bitcoin but you know give people

basically the ability to make transactions uh privately and then you know there's still these proofs so you can kind of know the whole thing is safe and correct but you don't know who's sending what to whom so the Privacy thing was you know I think for a long time the the kind of main way that people thought about ZK and yeah now a lot of it is more around this other use cases right like Roll-Ups or like where you basically say okay you can run this computation we just use proof and so it's much more efficient because like maybe you have to run less things on chain but let's search on privacy briefly what are your thoughts on like

CK and privacy um is there much activity do you think like how do you think it's gonna play out okay yeah see it's like uh practice applications of proof system is something which was traditionally supposed what this thing what this is for until recent times I mean that's that's true and uh it's like to understand to understand if there is a way forward with this if there's like if there's like any you know like in the end of the tunnel right with privacy and with the game like for privacy is what we got to understand how this privacy is achieved for example like for zcat right for for so for Z cash privacy with ZK is basically achieved as follows because it's like you have some data which is

kind of encrypted and stored inside is like inside the Z cash Z cash protocol Z cash like database whatever so what's going on is that you basically but you want to do like a transparency cash you get the data from that encrypted one you decrypt it you bro you post approved of a successful decryption in that you do some changes with this data then you encrypt it back back you you do the proof of a correct encryption and you pass it back to the cache I mean like it's a high level it's a high level overview of like how does that work right and uh what you've noticed in here most probably is that privacy is actually being uh preserved not by you know proof system with cell but by

simply the fact that the data never leaves the never lease uh the the the device of basically you know user like just User it's like it's like the decrypted data is only available in user's machine and the user is not willing to disclose that is not interested to disclose that so that's how the Privacy is achieved so there's a rewards it's like there's a question can you store some large amount of data in the database and still being able to get it each time from a protocol to your machine decrypt it do something with it and then encrypt it and then post all of these proofs of correct encryption decryption it's like will you be able to do that with large amount of data that's a good

question and uh I haven't seen anybody willing to download that you know like that by itself data on their phone to just decrypt it do some small change and then encrypt it back again and send it back it's not like it's um you know like very attractive so to defeat this to defeat this basically people started people started thinking about okay we need to process this data right where he is right inside the database you don't have to do so you won't need to download it or like do something with it and that's where basically that's where basically like Google encryption came into came into play and it's still in the lab it's still not out there it's still not usable but once it is I think in terms of privacy it will become much more relevant than proof system based

mechanisms through system-based mechanisms are very good for compression I mean those use cases which we see right now like GK Bridges the ml Roll-Ups whatever oracles anything right DJ games very difficult question but for privacy all right so let me so that was very interesting let me just sort of like rephrase if I understood this correctly basically like the the issue is that you know an improved system privacy you know I would basically need to run it locally right so I'm gonna have to download some data from somewhere I do whatever I do and then I generate this proof on my phone on my computer and then I send

this move back and then and then that's the change but of course the downside here is well I have to download this data I don't know if the maybe generating the ZK Foods is also um computationally sometimes it is yeah right and then and then with homomorphic encryption basically the advantage is that dig and a half the data someone else can have the data and they can apply the computation on top of this data but everything's encrypted so they don't know actually what the data is but I don't have to be involved as a user yeah it's like this is the way yeah okay and so you feel like homomorphic encryption is the thing that's really going to help

sort of the the Privacy applications more than the proof systems yep it's like again proof systems are very good for compression for data structure preserving compression I don't think any other thing will beat this but in terms of privacy yeah let's talk about the marketplace can you explain um how does the marketplace work the CK Marketplace and um you know like who are the different actors that are participating in this Marketplace basically what group Market is in terms of like you know tropical architecture so uh what is that it's basically again just a market Marketplace or proof

generation right it basically returns all those like zika proofs into commodity which you can like measure and measure their value measure their generation time measure how much they would cost be produced or how much uh it would cost to I don't know like speculate with them with unfold actually let's speculating with them so anyway so uh that's that's basically what it is what are the actors in that and uh what are the actors in there well let's start with like the most obvious one it's like uh generators I mean this is nothing without proof generators right so these are the fellas with uh these are the fellas with like you know big machines or specialized card or something else which are willing to provide uh their computational facilities for the sake

you know applications being able to use them there for this like for the sake of for the sake of security of theirs for example sometimes it's not security sometimes they get it crashing or something so yeah so so that's uh that's the most critical component of this whole thing uh the Nuance is that uh different different participants different group generators induce basically uh induce basically uh like open competition I mean obviously conducive open competition because somebody has a better Hardware somebody has worse hardware and somebody is more fitted to generating for example Roll-Ups like groups for roll-up surface somebody is more fit to generate like kind of open sourcing email circuits or something so it's great it's an open competition to

coordinate this open competition and to make sure that it stays Fair uh there's basically like word making protocol like coordinating like application right application on top of Deb investing so the second the second actor uh which is the most obvious one is basically is basically the fella who maintains uh maintains uh the maintenance that maintains this cluster maintains this particle maintains the DBS I mean because currently it's just it's just what it is you gotta store the data you got to facilitate the competition you get a like a competition and you got to make sure that it stays fair so that's what it is uh there is a Nuance on how this competition designed internally in terms of like protocol architecture what

is right for that but that's like you know different different topic we'll come to that later if you want the third of this participant of this is basically like application well it's uh the most obvious participant it's the applications I don't know DK Bridges Ezekiel oracles like Roll-Ups I don't know ztml stuff anyway CK games it's uh it's about so how does it look like for them it's basically in most cases this is like here this is ethereum application it's like a rollup is also kind of a clear replication we consider that way so in most cases this is like an ethereum application which uh comes up with the desire or something like okay I need composable computations for ethereum I need to be I need to be able

to just you know order some heavy loaded big ass competition to be able to be able to use it in ethereum for example some application decided that they need the result of an ml model which did score in over different over different ethereum addresses for the sake of you know figuring out risk risk parameters for some planting all right this is a very big trouble combination and the application usually comes up with something like okay I need this checkup application and the result of this like in the model or psychology so I'll just go order it somebody will generate it for me and I will just use the result of it without being concerned that you know somebody tries to screw me up so that's basically you know just three so it's like it's like three it's like three

major actors in that maybe we can talk a little bit about the second thing so you mentioned okay the maintenance of the dbms you know showing the data I mean because in the end right I mean it's a marketplace right and you want it to be uh trustless decentralized Marketplace so that is run on chain let's say this way uh that is around that's like that is being run on top of uh on top of a dbms and the dbms handles some bft protocol inside of it so there is some protocol which facilitates this and uh I gotta admit that I gotta admit that the Cur in the current state of it and the current state of it it's not

maybe decentralized enough it's become like we're going to progress think but anyway so yeah it is being maintained by some protocol by you know yeah there is a Nuance that to run this Marketplace let's run the throngless kind of thing and the trial not only this Marketplace but actually like quite a lot of other different applications like for example uh you gotta have some very particular requirements to this protocol because I mean what is effectively proof Market is it's a lot of competition over data but computation which can be decomposed right it's a lot of verifications and verifications I mean you can run it on ethereum but if you do that on ethereum like directly on this area you will pay

billions of dollars in fees just for the proof pocket per year I mean nobody wants to do that if you were on this other roll up or something like on a traditional roll-up or something you will you will quickly um hit into the limit of a gas available less than First Take and the second thing is it's like just one proof Market just a single proof Market will be enough to uh induce congestion as like at any roll-up existing out there so it's like if you deploy proof Walker for example like or some other roll up it will get congested like in just seconds uh that's interesting why is a proof Market so computationally intensive verifications a lot of verifications

each prove each proof which is being submitted by the blue generator has to be checked on the protocol side that that the proof generator didn't try to screw somebody up so so the verification has to be done and we have this like verifiers for EDM so yes I gotta admit that particle of Transport Market is kind of evm based one all right so we've put evm inside database a bit of a system so you're welcome databases now have evm inside anyway so uh you gotta check each proof which is being submitted uh which is being submitted by improved generator because otherwise if an application comes to approved and they're like okay well it's like can we be sure that it's that it's good nobody

else so we got to make sure that it's good and each pair each circuit each New Order induces at least one verification and just and just to understand verifications I mean they take quite a lot of gas quite a lot of application so yeah that's that's that's intensive there's also a Nuance if you want there's also a Nuance if you want that each proof it's proof and the input data which you use for progeneration takes uh not just a lot of computation but it also takes a lot of storage in terms of you got to be able to you got to be able to produce a lot of data and once you try to put like for example like a bunch of I don't know 500 kilobyte proofs at some roll up it's

going to get congested in seconds if you post that much from somebody comes on some roll up right or if you put input for the blue generation uh which uh it feels like with which uh the application has come you know to to the group generator uh if this will also get congested like you know in seconds for example for example the input for Solana consensus blew I mean with this login group some time ago input versus proof is being produced uh I mean it's really big it's actually just you know thousands of thousands of signature thousands of hashes being produced each I don't know like 0.2 seconds or something that's a lot I mean that's really a lot and for this to process all of that it's like I mean it was it's

quite convenient that we started with a dbms because we found ourselves very lucky that we started with dbms so that's basically what it is we can present yeah yeah okay and then you mentioned this dbms it still has some sort of bft thing so do you still have basically you know a bunch of different I don't know node operators or something similar that then all run this dbms or uh well currently it looks that way yeah so I'm not like node upgraded or something but like a dbms instance yeah that it's like there are different servers different operators which you which which do Host this uh but like again right now it's just in test mode and uh again it's uh very it's very important for us for this

to not to accidentally become something you know very Standalone because the majority of anybody who's interested in this I mean like in in in the dbms it's either accessing the ethereum data either databake improves or the proof boxes for ethereum applications either using the either using the proof Market in combination with some other application uh like dedicated to ethereum so we try to not to be Standalone and we'll figure it out the way how to not end up being a standalone thing so yeah we mentioned the three actors so maybe let's get go to the other actors too so we mentioned uh you know we talked about the application so can you just

run through it a little bit let's say I'm maybe one or two examples of like okay I'm someone who wants to develop an application that's going to leverage you know ZK how and you know particularly this Marketplace how would this work well basically first of all you got to determine if you would need if you would need a proof generation Outpost that's that's like the first thing you got a better mind it's like the second thing is the second thing you've got to do somebody in terms of like you being as a developer the application developer you got to figure out uh if Circuit of yours is like you know if it's if it's if it's really complicated or if it requires

like something some something huge to be proven or something something so the typical workflow for this is like once you decide these two points the typical workflow is the well we suppose it that way all right so we're kind of like particle and Tool chain agnostic but by default we supposed the way so you just come in you take the circuit compiler you draft some circuit uh if you don't need proof generation Outsourcing you just generate locally and you just verify the ethereum or like somewhere else and you're good basically here goes your application just build the logic right if you improve generation Outsourcing you will you will require to basically pause the circuit to the proof Market as you know as would list the circuit it's like listed other proof markets here we go okay God damn it

never thought that's gonna be in my vocabulary but anyway uh so you're gonna lift the circuit on the proof market and say something like okay guys now I need somebody to provide liquidity by proving liquidity like proof liquidity all right it's like oh this particular surface for this particular like circuit pair or something like this so if you realize that okay yes it needs to be outsourced somebody comes in generates your proof you get your proof you take it you use it anywhere else so that's basically what it is there's also one more of a scenario where you can use this is you can just instead of doing all of that thing for example on your front end or like in the custom way from your application like or

something you can basically order the same piece of chocolate it's like the same piece of computation right from EDM because for example like building some UV application like an overd5 protocol or something uh you can basically just come to evm endpoint for proof Market say something like okay I need this big chunk of computation for me at this address deployed and I don't know like two hours or like in five minutes or like for test amount of I don't know something whatever for this amount of ease for example so you ask them they're like okay well I see the order I'll generate it this particular this table statement here we go here goes approve of yours and you get the proof like right inside your ears like right inside EDM right inside your evm application so that's like the second that's like the

second way of uh using this okay cool cool and now maybe finally mention generators so generators basically right there just do a bunch of computation give back the results get paid for it sounds a lot like you know proof of work sort of right or like is this de facto going to be that you have a lot of the crypto mining forms that maybe do like GPU mining or then just gonna say okay now we're also going to do you know proof production for like let's say this Marketplace other kind of ZK systems or what how do you imagine that this Market is going to look like

uh yeah it's like first of all I want to say that this might be similar this might seem to be similar with uh just traditional proof of proof of work thing but uh there's still quite a lot of differences it's like first of all it's like doing just proof of work is like Computing hashes over and over again for the sake of secure and protect secure like some proof of work right so that's what it is and it's not like you're proving something new each time it's not like you're proving something something which you know makes sense you just proven caches and uh that's and these hashes are present in there just for the sake of computational complexity for the sake of YouTube not the spam the cluster so that's what it is in case we're talking about like for example DK proof generation uh yes it is required to have

quite a lot of competitions with the facility for this uh there are holes which are doing like a specific A6 specifics Hardware specific hardware for all this some of them do programmable A6 some of them do you know just slap things on board they're like okay we're good with it and uh that's something which is similar but what is different is that what you prove is not like uh just you know meaningless hashes for the sake of computational complexity it's something you prove that you prove that basically the sequence of some actions which were done add some protocol or outside of the protocol or some or by somebody else basically digitalize all your everyday actions you you can actually create a proof of all your everyday actions and uh is it gonna

be it's like is it going to be meaningless I mean like a proof that you cross the road for example or the or a proof that you I don't know something that she walked at it all like 500 that's like 500 miles right so it's like is that meaningless maybe but it's like meaning is it meaningless for everybody not really it's definitely not meaningless for everybody so this is what is different so that's the first thing which is different the second thing which is different uh with uh just through for just which is proof of work stuff is you have same piece of computation because like uh basically do it being done over and over again uh in here computation each time may be different and uh in case we're talking about like in case we're talking about

defining competitions custom circuit there are two ways around how to handle this in case perfect is the same over and over again just like for Z with DK VMS for ckvx okay so we have the same circuit so you got to print the same circuit over and over again it was just in different input data this situation makes sense uh for people to produce specific specific A6 for this specific hardware for this which is dedicated to like particular stuff right what we're talking about that each piece of computation can be represented by different circuits it makes sense it it's like it it not like just makes sense it doesn't make sense to produce specific hardware for each of these circuits because they're not that widespread and that might be easier to just you know compute them with like CPU

or GPU or something because these are basically like Dynamic circuits and this has the system has to be more flexible so if we're talking about like if this Market is gonna it's gonna end up just like you know mining Market no it's not going to end up because it's not going to end up that way because it's different by Design so they may maybe there will be like some specific circuit so some specific computations that are where there's just like an enormous large demand that maybe looks more like mining but then in general because it's much more generalized there it will be different Dynamic yeah what are the biggest challenges with

this like what are yeah what do you guys find or the biggest uh maybe conceptual technical challenges that you're facing which challenges duplicates right now it's like I gotta admit that one of the biggest in terms of conceptual challenges we Face currently is how to make how to make uh the protocol which Powers move rocket uh it's like you know secure and decentralized and not I mean how to arrange these protocols away so it could handle proof market and similar applications because I mean again a lot of data a lot of computations we cannot deploy that on our own up we cannot deploy that we need it has like it has to be something interesting it has to be like something different and that's like

one of the that's like one of the challenges the architectural challenges were was like we we're thinking about right now that's uh in terms of you know like Tech stuff that we already realized that special solution which can handle this I mean it has to leverage those things which come which which come from a DBS industry it has to leverage like the task leverage like Dynamic charting it has to leverage security techniques which which were developed within crypto industry and only the combination of those uh would be able to handle basically what is required for this and maybe not only this there is also nulls that inside the proof Market uh like applications and like uh approve Market alike applications right they have to be

able to access the theory of data because the majority of what's going on around proving happens around the theater when you get to have data to put that as an input to the verifiers for each group which comes from a food generator so we're basically got to be able to be to access ethereum's data from the inside of a particle from the inside of a fruit market uh just like it was brought in other ethereum but not all the serial because ethereum cannot handle the load so this like weird combination weird combination of two industries is what bottom results currently is and it is what in terms of like architecture we're facing uh we're facing right now the most challenge about it's the you know how to handle

this approved like applications uh how to handle applications which require like a lot of data a lot of application stuff transparent data access how to handle that so this could be still aligned with it here cool can you talk a bit about um what is the product roadmap as I mentioned already it's like there are basically like two big chunks it's like the first big chunk is the combination of a proof Walker plus compiler it's like in here uh in here the thing is about putting as much applications as like as it makes sense for them uh it's like to you know to help as much applications as possible Right basically that's what it is and uh

we target for example to introduce the notion of ZK gaming I mean not just you know space invader is a like thing just like was with dark force right I mean dark force is good we love it it's facing greater than good but we want to introduce some more white people it's like a more interesting notion of ckg it's like we want to be able to prove 3D games we want to be able to prove like I don't know some things something is really weird what happens for example it I know like 3D action game like other Theory so that's like that's like the thing another thing is that uh on our side uh not like not like entirely on our side but uh there is a ml there's eqml extension uh basically coming for compiler which would allow to prove ml

models to ethereum and uh what I'm talking about proving the ml models to theorem I'm not talking about proving something like something something trivial or something similar to I don't know you know just a classifier or something I'm talking about proving um whatever you want basically because if you produce like circuits dense enough so that's the thing and the guys which are doing this as an example again uh they target approved gpt2 to zero is it useful I don't know is it fun yes it is so that's what it is uh that's the Roblox that's the rule that forgotten the regarding the separate compiler plus food market there's also a thing in the roadmap that we want to be able to produce zkevl via

SDK llv up because we think that could be like an important Milestone or like ethereum Community because it's about the security of ckvf circuits we do not want anybody to get hurt by under constrained circuits so we try to sort of so we try to basically compile evm with zklvm so we could say something like okay guys here goes zkvm which is easily auditable which is like you know secure which was not written manually but was generated automatically and uh like the compiler is kind of you know so it's good it's fine and uh it definitely not on the constraint and nobody nobody's gonna lose you know nobody's going to lose any money because of that

so that's like the part around the compiler plus Booth Market it's like the part around the group Market was deep investing well again it's like I as I already mentioned uh we got to get to that point when we will be able to make the protocol which powers and Rocket accessible to third-party Developers for people to be able to see that okay well mixed into Industries makes sense that okay it's like there is like you know there's enough there's enough scalability there is not like you know there's there's a lot of data which can be handled there's nothing combination to be which which can be handled and uh you can like Leverage I don't know transparate access to ethereum data and character would try to make that

accessible by thread but by the developers not just us because we've already been writing this in like beta mode in private for I don't know seven eight months and uh I mean we want to make it public it's going to make it public for some first up what is to say that okay it was worthwhile it's good it works so what is the timeline here like when do you guys go to like a mainnet and how do you see like if things go well how do you see the projects sort of developing over the next two years uh look it's like uh just just to avoid just to avoid confusion it's like we have no such thing as we have no such thing as mainnet in terms of like you

know DBS or something because it's it's the best all right so I don't know if there is like such a thing as yeah so the second thing is second thing is uh in terms of when the beta when debatable ends like we target the beta mode to end uh like uh before uh before the middle of November before the dev connected Istanbul so we target the complete event having all of our verifiers happen all of our like having all of our uh endpoints and everything like in production deployed other ethereum or like made knit Interior right so if we're talking about like production or something or

product bowling for dbms uh there will still be uh quite significant uh time span one we're going to be testing this it's like in the public beta and it's been around for some time and so you know it's still it's still going to be tested like you know in public so well we have plans we have plans but it's like they're too ambitious to maybe tell about them thanks so much for joining me shopping this is like a really cool area of ZK and um I think it's going to be super fascinating as we see this getting indicated in different crypto applications yeah and so yeah thanks so much for coming on I'm excited to see

how nail foundations and the CK Marketplace gonna play out and and you know how in in general the the impact of CK and crypto is is going to be thanks for inviting me it's like it was nice it's nice cool well thanks so much for listening for tuning in uh if you want to support the podcast make sure to leave us iTunes review and we look forward to being back next week