MiCA in Action: What It Means for Stablecoin Issuers and CASPs

Transcript

hello everyone and welcome to the crypto valy Association webinar that we are super excited to be hosting for you today so um what is the crypto valy Association let me just give you a quick intro while we we wait for more people to join so the CVA is a nonprofit organization which which was founded in 2018 and it's Switzerland's biggest professional crypto and blockchain associations with the goal of increasing collaboration advocacy and education in the space both bullish and cirle are proud members of the crypto valy Association and part of the crypto Valley associations institutional working group which I co-chair with Eva Lawrence from figman so I'm your host

today my name is denova and I'm Director of Business Development at bullish uh bullish is one of the fastest growing regulated digital asset exchanges for those who aren't familiar we are an institutionally focused exchange that launched almost three years ago what's really exciting is that we've hit 775 billion in total trading volume since launch um we offer a we have a comprehensive uh of products from spot to perpetuos but anyway enough about me I am sitting down today with Patrick Hansen who is the director of EU strategy and policy adviser at Circle who will now introduce himself and tell us a little bit more about circle before we jump into Q&A

Patrick yes thank you so much Dena and um thanks to the crypto valy Association for the invitation really looking forward to spend the next uh 45 minutes or so talking about the eu's most favorite crypto acronym which is Mika um so my name is Patrick as you mentioned I lead our EU regulatory strategy over here in the EU um we just celebrated actually quite an exciting milestone in the EU because we announced early July that we had received an eone institution license um from the French supervisory Authority and that we are the first major Global issuer to be compliant with with Mika the big regulatory framework

we're going to discuss today but um yeah more generally for those who don't know Circle um circle is the issuer of usdc and euroc so-called stable coins um I think we're going to discuss that today as part of the Mika topic and more broadly circle is really a global Financial technology company that um enables companies of of all sizes to to Leverage The Power of public blockchains and of digital currencies and but first and foremost I think um circle is known to be the issuer of of usdc which is the largest regulated stable coin globally that's uh that's all on me Dena back to you yep so yeah stable coins

which are also known as the crypto killer app are the hottest topic of the year and so is MAA as you mentioned the most interesting acronym uh which stands for markets in crypto assets regulation which kicks in in January of next year so can you tell us um we have a very broad um range of people joining us from crypto experts to crypto enthusiasts to lawyers who know the insides and out of of the of the EU law to people who literally know nothing can you tell us um can you just give us a an overview of ma what is it how did it come about and what are the key deadlines L that have been passed and the ones that we need to watch out for um before we dive into specifically stable coins and the crypto

asset providers Mika is really I I affectionately call it the one regulatory framework to rule the more um because it's I think safe to say it's by far the most comprehensive regulation that the crypto asset industry has seen so far on a global stage actually um and so I mean where should I start Let Me Maybe start with the history and I actually had the chance to follow Mika quite early already and back in the days I was working for bitcom which similar to the crypto Valley Association is the largest tech Association in Germany and I remember back in the days that was 2019 I was responding to the EU

commission's consultation about should they you know move forward with such a regulatory framework or not um what are you know the the focus areas of the industry back in the days and so much has happened obviously since it's been really a multi-year process but the history of Mika was really one that was sparked I would say primarily by three developments on one side in early 2019 actually the ebaa which is the European supervisory banking Authority published a report that said listen these are all types of crypto assets that exist out there we see a lot of trading we see a lot of activ but most of it is not covered by existing EU regulation

because they don't represent financial instruments um so they don't really represent you know Securities in that sense and so it's unregulated and that's marked you the conversation should these activities icos token offerings Etc should should be should they be regulated so that was the first development the second one was that in the EU anti-money laundering regulation the so-called aml5 for the first time in history some light touch rules or some rules were introduced for crypto businesses and that was the aml5 entered into application in early 2020 and that's where for the first time custodians and

exchanges in Europe had to implement at least some AML measures for their crypto businesses um but that AML directive really led to a patch a patchwork of national implementation so some countries like Germany introduced really heavily li like heavily regulated licensing regimes for custodians for example others kepted to that AML registrations and again others didn't like really Implement nothing at all and so we started seeing a Divergence in National approaches across the EU and that was a problem that the EU

commission identified and then the third and I would say last big trigger for Mika was Libra um as as you probably all know especially being in Switzerland um Libra was probably the most ambitious crypto project to date back in back in the days and sparked a lot of fear a lot of political conversation around what that is as a as a as a product as a means of payment as an asset and how it should be regulated and it really accelerated the conversation that was already ongoing about how should these crypto assets and crypto activities be regulated so I would say these were the m major triggers they LED ultimately to um the EU commission moving forward with a

proposal for MAA in 2020 um and then you know since then if you look at the Timeline it was proposed in 2020 it was discussed and negotiated in the Parliament and in the council in the following two years in summer 2022 we saw saw a political agreement between the major legislative bodies in the EU it then took another while in order to specify that political agreement into actually technical rules and then in 2023 in summer it was officially adopted by the European Parliament and the council as law in the European Union however um there were some essentially um implementing um transitional timeline

that um allowed stable coin issuers for example but also crypto asset companies to prepare for that implementation of that huge framework and so in 2024 um Mika finally entered into application in um for Sable coins the key date was the 30th of June 2024 and for all crypto asset service providers spe custodians exchanges the key date is the uh the the end of December this year so um that's that's the time where MAA will enter into application for most of the crypto businesses in the EU although one should say that there are some grandfathering regimes again from

National supervisors that allow those companies that already benefit from a national registration or license to have an additional number of months where they can um finally re receive their their MAA license um and so these are the major timelines and this is going to be my next question before we dive into the hot topic of what happens to those who are not regulated um can you explain exactly how these regulation Works what what's the difference between a directive and and and a direct regulation um how are different countries tackling those yeah so in EU law the difference between a regulation and a directive is that a regulation is directly applicable in all member countries and so Mika the

markets and crypto assets regulation is therefore directly applicable in every single of the 27 EU member states there is no real leeway for National countries and National governments to say we deviate from what the EU has decided here in terms of crypto regulation and so they have to stick to whatever the EU came up with for directives it's more as the name says a Direction so for example when it comes to let's say the e-y directive or the AML directive in the EU member countries still had some flexibility and some leeway in how they transpose that EU law

international regimes some for example decided to put on more I don't know for example heavier credential um rules others um decided to be a little bit more flexible when it comes to um Reserve obligations or AML obligations for example and so the the one thing to keep in mind and I think personally that's one of the huge benefits of Mika is that it will really create a Level Playing Field because there is no way for National governments to deviate from from these EU rules and what do what are these grandfathering uh procedures that exist in some countries that is supposed to um Grant some additional implementing time for

companies that have already shown some commitment to regulation and so the EU decided to grant you know or or to allow the national countries to Grant additional I would say implementing time and that has led at least um on on that grandfathering periods to some Divergence between member states because there was some flexibility um as to how much time these member states could actually Grant although the European um supervisory of authorities had recommended to every member state to Grant one year of implementing time there's still some deviation here so you have countries

like Germany and and others that that Grant one year and have really followed the the EU guidance but others France for example has granted up to 18 months of implementing time that allows c um to continue to provide the services given like on on the condition obviously see that they already have a national registration or license they have an additional 18 months before they can receive the MAA license and again other countries have reduced that transition time so for example the the Netherlands have reduced that grandfathering period to only six months meaning at the very latest in summer

2025 if you provide crypto Asset Services based in the Netherlands you need to have a MAA license you cannot rely any longer on your local National license so then why would at bullish we took the stance that we're going to go for the highest possible um standard so we are on file with Baffin for a Propet trting principle and um custody license but there are a lot of actors in the space who prefer to go to countries where they could get these registrations faster and and passport themselves into we does it actually really matter where you where you get licensed uh I mean you got license in France which I'm sure was a very thorough process as well how should

we think about this I mean in in in theory it doesn't really matter because the rules are the same and the rules are really based on what the EU has adopted in practice there might be some Divergence when it comes to um supervisory practice for example and so that is just I would say more a cultural thing there are some supervisors that put a heavier notion and a heavier focus and scr to KNE on some aspects let's say whatever um it and cyber security and others might put a greater weight in the discussion in the licensing process into for example AML obligations and requirements But ultimately those should really be I would say Notions and

Divergence um broadly speaking it is really one Level Playing Field after the grandfathering period um finishes the Point Dena to to to your to your point of you know being seeking the license in Germany and not only going for registration in another country I think the major difference here to point out is that there is actually a difference whether you're just registered so to say as you know as an AML compliant crypto business or whether you already have a national license if you already have a national license you will benefit from what Mika called a FastTrack procedure so if you're already let's say a

regulated licensed custodian in Germany or in France you will be able to upgrade that to a full ma license that you can then passport throughout the EU in a FastTrack easier process whereas if you have a registration for AML purposes you really have to go through the entire ma licensing process from scratch and I think that's a very important difference that not a lot of people are aware of um but hopefully as we get closer to the deadline it's going to become clear the another question I had for you is so the European Securities and markets Authority uh they've delivered an opinion on global crypto firms who use their non-e execution venues to circumvent the mik regulation what do you have a strong view on that as in um

firm with with significant operations in the European Union use their non-european entity to say trade or custody assets on another uh provider using their also their non-european enti do you think that this regulatory Arbitrage is going to have some leway under MAA or it's something that's going to be under significant scrutiny on that specific point I mean I I I read the as my guidance um it it doesn't touch us specifically since we're more of an issuer and less on the CP side I think the key piece to to Really grasp is that since you spend so much time now on developing that MAA

regime since um the goal is really to create one harmonized Level Playing Field in the EU one of the key objectives now when it comes to the implementation and then further down the road the supervision of the framework is that regulatory loopholes for Arbitrage Etc are closed and I think that's part of you know that objective and the esma guidance really tries to make sure that there is no benefit to gain from um not seeking an EU license and and so I think you have to treat that guidance that SM published and potentially also future guidance that will be published by by the EBA and Asma really um you you have to see that under that specific light

that there's zero appetite in the EU going forward to see that um local compliant regulated actors will be disadvantaged because they have heavy compliance and operational costs versus potentially foreign unregulated players that continue to serve the EU market and so if you look at for example even the earlier um guidance from from esma on reverse solicitation you will soon realize that there aren't too many loopholes left it's probably the strictest reverse solicitation guidelines that any Financial Services vertical has ever seen in the EU um in history

I find it quite quite entertaining that for once we in Europe are leading the way um in regulating such an Innovative um industry right we have a very clear framework sounds like there's going to be no place to run starting January 1st 20125 whereas in the US for example they still haven't really gotten their act together so there's actually a lot this Clarity is something to to definitely look forward to so one question on the crypto asset service providers before we dive deep into the stable coins so what happens um if you are a crypto exchange and you don't have uh a ma license starting January first 2025 I I asked this question because I'm actually surprised with how many of our

competitors are not even considering getting regulated or licensed in Europe um what's the plan B really for for this crowd I I personally think there is no good plan B to be frank um if you don't have a n license it's pretty simple you will be you will not be able to offer your services in the EU you will not be able to Market your services and products in the EU and so at the end of the day especially if you're a European company based in the EU I think the conclusion will be you have to close shop because you're just a non-compliant player at that

stage and you're not allowed to provide those Services if you're a foreign entity of course um there is the question to what extent could you still provide services in Reverse solicitation to EU users but if if that's your plan I'd really recommend you read the esma guidance on R solicitation um because the flexibility to act under those reverse solicitation guidance is extremely limited so you can't really communicate you can't Market anything um even if you onboard users you have to stick to whatever the user you know requested and can't offer anything else um you can't really communicate even with that onboarded

European user um I personally think that practically speaking even foreign players will have a very very hard time serving EU users um from a third country and I wouldn't be surprised if many foreign companies in reaction to that super strict reverse solicitation guidance those foreign companies that choose to be non-compliant in the EU and not seek any M license I wouldn't be surprised if some of them even went so far as to geoblock the European Union because otherwise they would run the risk of breaching those reversal licitation guidelines sure sure in theory that's

exactly what they should be doing cool so now moving on to stable coins the hot question since you know the deadline has already passed um you are licensed in France so you're you're completely fine for for both euroc and usdc but what happened and what has been going on with the non the nonregulated stable coin issues um you know thinking some of the you you know your biggest competitor how are they how are they getting away with it what's what's going on I think it's it's similar to what I just highlighted earlier for cast the the conclusion is pretty simple if you're not authorized in the EU to operate um um under you know that those MAA rules you will just no longer be

able to serve the EU market and to um Market your products and services in the EU and I think we will really see that kicking in once MAA enters into application for CS at the end of the year because as one example EU regulated trading platforms will no longer be able to list those stable coins that are not authorized under EU rules those stable coins will not be able to pass any kind of suitability Assessments and tests for example for EU trading platforms and so I expect to see quite a significant shift in stable coin usage and liquidity in the EU because all the existing

activity and liquidity will kind of move over to those stable coins that are compliant in the EU and that's part of the reason why we went through that entire process it's because we a big Market opportunity in the EU we're trying to position now usdc and URC as the largest MAA compliance stable coins we're in touch and in conversations with many European players and we really hope to be able to build those liquidity networks effects within European crypto Capital markets for for our stable coins and are you surprised that liquidity hasn't dried out when that deadline came in on June 1st or do you think that the next drop really will be

the crypto the the the exchanges um that so they're going to be under more screw you know being regulated themselves and therefore what stable coins they list um as part of their offering I think so yes I think so because ultimately what entered into application at the end of June were title three and title four of MAA and those really covered you know those entities that want to issue and offer stable coins to the EU public um but once now M fully enters into application and start starts to bring all those different exchanges and cast into its own scope I think that's when we will truly see um the impact

trickling through the through the entire Market let's talk let's talk about the European stable coin landscape specifically because I think it's really interesting how many of these projects you're starting to see Pop Up um they have pretty much all the same value proposition they are all they pretty much all have Emi licenses in various jurisdictions but what do you what do you think um is necessary for a European stable coin to gain critical mass obviously you need to get the exchanges and the market makers behind and you know the use case needs to be really strong but what's the risk of getting a really fragmented Market in Europe um and not really having a champion at the

end of the day and as uh someone I know mentioned to me what if the Euro finally Finds Its use case as in exchanges instead of listing um these European stable coins just decide to list pairs against the Euro and also if you can talk about the latest developments in Euros which think has the largest cap now among the European stable coins yeah yeah it's it's one of my favorite topics Dena it's it's the the big question is why haven't we seen more Euro stable coin adoption right because at the end of the day the euro is by far the second largest currency globally if you look at traditional metrics like FX markets or um foreign currency Holdings within

financial institutions for example usually the Euro fluctuates between like 20 and 30% roughly and if you look at the crypto markets and Euro stable coin adoption in the crypto markets the number is Tiny in comparison there is less than 05% of less than .5% of global stable coin market cap is actually Euro denominated yeah and the question is why is that and how how will that develop um on the why is that question I personally think that the major reason is that in the

past the majority of the crypto activity has really been seen in trading and in crypto Capital markets and I think that's where US dollar Sable coins just developed insanely powerful Network and liquidity effects where it didn't really make sense for a user to use a Euro because the dollar pairs were more liquid and more accessible and therefore ultimately more useful another reason I think was the fact that we had little Alternatives there was the regulatory I mean the the regulatory Clarity with maika really started this

year right I mean prior to that there there were still ongoing conversations could we fit a stable coin into the e-money framework or not but starting this year it's perfectly clear and we see compliant actors FL flooding the markets and that's why I think and I also hope and I talked about that for example two months ago when we launched also at the eastc in Brussels I think that will change and I see a few Trends why that would change first of all there's the trend of what happens with European CPS and I think they will have an incentive to also switch to Mika compliant tokens many of those MA compliant tokens

will be Euro denominated and so I I I think we will see some growth within crypto Capital markets themselves however I I think the even bigger growth can be expected in those use cases that are less I would say trading Focus but more payments and re World utility focused and so as we see also crypto and blockchain Technology being used for example in capital markets so when it comes to trading stocks and bonds on blockchain in tokenized fashion you will need a Fiat settlement lag right yeah and in Europe as those players launch their use cases they will use a Euro Fiat

settlement leg and that will at least as of today be a Euro stable coin so one thing I I'm personally looking forward to is the launch of the so-called DT pilot regimes in the EU that are essentially tokenized trading venues SO trading venues on blockchain for stocks and bonds Etc settled via stable coins in addition to that I think now with the regulatory Clarity we will see increasingly payments um use cases emerge cross border payments be it you know B2B um we have an interesting a pilot project ongoing with sap in Germany for example where they can pay suppliers in euroc but also retail payments s water payments remittance

payments now that ultimately you have the regulatory Clarity you have the same rights with a stable coin as you have with e- money traditional e- money so to say I think we will see less and less hesitance to really adopt those um tokens also for payments and so I hope we can at least over let's say the next one or two years at least triple the market cap of you Euro stable CS um overall and is eurc uh URC a strategic Focus for Ciro because obviously you have usdc who's the absolute winner um what what's the what's the what are what are the your um leadership's thoughts on

URC specifically or are or are they more in like let's wait and see this Mega situation before we start heavily investing into it and and shifting our focus on it no one I mean circle from top to the bottom is committed to URC I would say the the weight and C approach was probably one that was ahead of you know MAA was uh one that was a Little Bit Stronger Just because everyone wanted to wait okay let's get first the license let's then onshore URC issuance to the EU that's what we have done now so if you interact with URC today it's fully on short to the EU it's 100% issued out

of our regulated French entity and it's also 100% reserved out of that French entity and so we wanted to get that done first because that's the key piece of the puzzle in order to now grow it and that's what you know we we have been doing since it's been working pretty well to be frank we have been growing Euro C Supply already more than 50% over the last two months we see significant traction it was launched on the base blockchain for example where there is now very cool FX uses cases emerging where you can just trade the dollar against the Euro on chain via defy FX pool super cool um so we see a ton of traction there we see traction with

centralized crypto Capital markets players like exchanges and others and we see as mentioned earlier also the interest now the growing interest from traditional financial institutions but also payments companies to look into these things and consider payments use cases built on stable coins that's super exciting what is the market cap now I think as a today we around 56 million or so so it it it doesn't sound much in comparison to the billion dollar US US dollar but in absolute terms it's grown quite a lot it's been growing it's been growing and I think we will continue to see that growing great um

just a reminder for the participants you can ask questions through the Q&A button um so please start posting those and I'll while we wait for those I'll ask um Patrick another question um what what does the European Central Bank think about all these stable coin action they've been observing they've been I mean obviously it's a big part of the financial tissue here so what's the what are you hearing and what's what's the view there at the end of the day now that those coins which are actually called legally speaking e-money tokens on the EU law now that they're regulated in the EU at the end of the day I believe that the eccb just looks at

them as just as another form of private money um we had private money in the past you know Bank deposits e-money in the EU so your PayPal balances for example and now there's just another form which is tokenized and which is called e-money token right and at the end of the day I think the majority of money in circulation was always privately issued be it by Banks or be it by em institutions and if you look at also the ECB in the context of the digital Euro discussions clearly no one in the ECB is trying to somehow replace privately issued money with cbdcs that's

not an objective of the ECB right so I think they look at e-money tokens in a neutral fashion they treat it just as another form of money and actually I think why we see stable coins grow in parallel to that I think we will also see the realization grow in those um monetary monetary institutions but also in political bodies that stable coins can be a powerful vehicle to um expand the power and the usage of the euro currency itself um the first time that wood moment of the Euro basically yeah the first time the ECB

looked at that was I think two years ago they the ECB has a yearly report called the international role of the Euro and the objective of the ECB is to position the Euro as a globally important currency and to improve those metrics across the board and that was the first time when they looked at the very low usage of Euro stable coins and said if that market continues to grow at as it has been growing in the past that could in future be an important topic for us and so I think strategically speaking as the stable coin Market grows overall we will also see more and more political support for Euro stable coins in the EU just because

it's it's important uh lever for um the the power and the importance and and the adoption of of the Euro as a currency overall yeah so it's basically stable coins helping the Euro find its use cas after all these years definitely super interesting to watch okay we have a couple of questions from the audience the first one is uh MAA levels the field in our 30 or so EA markets but are we giving other regions an edge by moving first so to speak are mid East and Asian casps subject to the same standards that's a very relevant question because we definitely have seen the massive Exodus into the Emirates um in the past in the past two years so I guess the

question is does that does that give us an Edge or or does that uh make us lose uh competitiveness I think and I hope the former because the entire industry if you I mean if you have worked as as you and me in the industry has been calling for regulatory Clarity for years now right and it has always been an objective especially here in the EU that we create that regulatory framework that is harmonized across the EU I've spoken to dozens and dozens of German or French crypto Founders for example and in the past they had a whatever a an exchange business or a custody business and it

was super complicated and complex to scale that across different EU countries so they were always kind of limited in their operations to one single country and therefore it was very very hard to catch up with the competition on the global level um in in the US or or or Asia and so I I would rather see maika as an opportunity from a business perspective it is important obviously that it is implemented in a practical way um it is important that it is seen as the beginning of the road and that the industry together with the supervisors make sure that all those rules will also be practical in nature and can be implemented and don't create an

excessive regulatory burden where small startups for example are no longer able to comply yeah um that that that would be the worst case scenario obviously but I I think so far the interests are really aligned across industry across supervisors across policy makers to make that me framework that European crypto landscape a success and at the end of the day we're all working towards that and we'll see in a couple of years we'll look back at the market and and we'll be able to tell yeah but I think the whole industry is slowly coming to the conclusion that regulation is no longer a feature but a requirement so it's really a matter of time uh we have another question um what are weaknesses of MAA for from the perspectives um of a

stable coin issuer uh what can these regulation do better that you're in it completely maybe you can there's quite a few things that I think can can be done in a better way in terms of credential requirements for example and so when it when it comes to where the reserve assets um should be hold and how they should be managed I think there's quite a few things that iterations can improve upon um so limits for example for certain financial instruments I think restrict the issuers

to some degree and should be amended and as mentioned earlier I as with any other EU regulation it's the first um adopted law as has been the case with e-money or with payments or with asset management rules but then over time in the next couple of years it will also be further improved we will see the interim MAA review already next year we will see the final MAA review in 20127 and if needed the EU commission will actually propose changes for additions additions to Mika so I think on The Reserve side there there might be some improvements I also think when it comes to the more protectionist measures within Mika for example the the issuance caps

based on reor payments of nonu currency tokens I think that's something that wasn't really warranted because there's sufficient um sufficient place in MAA to kind of react in case there's a risk to monetary sovereignty so that's another part I would mention and then ultimately last but not least I I think what M also needs to implement in its next iteration is some kind of equivalence regime or regulatory recognition of licenses in other major Financial jurisdictions so for example if a stable coin issuer is licensed and regulated in

the US there should be some kind of FastTrack procedure or equivalence regime that would allow these issuers to also operate in the EU and by VI Versa right those issues that are regulated in the EU should be allowed to to operate elsewhere I think that would make the life and the operations and the and the scalability of of global issues that are compliant and are regulated way way easier okay uh we have so many questions sorry I'm we're not going to have time to answer all of them so I kind of have to select them per topic um there's one that's actually quite interesting there was some disclosure that MAA only aims to regulate EUR EUR denominated stable coins not all stable coins uh whatever currency the reference are to the EU

public what are you your thoughts it's not the currency that matters when it comes to um what what should be regulated by Mika it's it's it's really the question of what is being offered to the EU public what is like if you for example have an EU startup and you want to build a US dollar stable coin or Japanese Yen stable coin or a Swedish pra stable coin you need to get that regulated um in the same way there there is no not an exemption I would say the the only pie that is crystal clear for Euro stable coins and to some extent an extra territorial impact of MAA is that if you

build a Euro stable coin it doesn't really matter whether you're here in the EU or you're in like other parts of the world even if you build a Euro stable coins in South Africa you will be treated as offering that stable coin to the EU public and so you need to seek EU regulation I think that that's an important part that sometimes gets missed got it and there's two more questions that I really want want you to answer so you have one minute for question since we need to all right par up at 45 um so the there's a there's a question on cbdcs and how does ma account for them and like what's the what's the impact of ma on CBC that's a tough one to cover in in one minute or less but I I I give you my my

my tldr I I think cbdcs are really something distinct from Mika and different from mea um so especially in the in the European Union or to be more precise in the Euro Zone the digital Euro that the ECB is currently contemplating and working on doesn't really have anything to do with blockchain it's not going to be a token that ultimately is issued by the ECB on on a public blockchain as any other stable coin that we know so I wouldn't really see it in the context of of Mika got it interesting and the last question and it's the million dooll question who is going to win the race uh for the best

EUR denominated stable coin besides circles yeah I mean I'm I'm obviously biased here on that front um let me put it this way do you think it's going to be do okay to put it in another way do you think it's going to be URC and everyone else irrelevant or do you think there's going to be like a few of those that are going to beef up in next couple of months and and come up strong no I think there will be competition there will be a lot of Supply we've seen a lot of actors entering the market I don't necessarily think that we'll have dozens and dozens of relevant Euro stable points personally not a believer in that just because the network effects are so

important in the stable coin business but I do believe that we will see competition and that we will see a range of important and widely adopted Euro stable coins ultimately what matters most I think in in in the stable coin Market is how you create trust transparency and compliance how to you build the best product from a technology point of view that people are easy to use it easy to bridge it and then last but not least from a business and distribution perspective how do you build Network effects Network effects are really the one and the single most important aspect for for stable coin growth and um I mean we're working on all those fronts um

trying to do our best every day the market will tell but uh I mean I'm biased you are see obviously to the moon great I think those were the perfect closing remarks Patrick thank you very much uh for your insights a reminder this session is recorded uh and it's going to be posted on the crypto valy association's YouTube channels so stay tuned for that Patrick thank you very much and yeah go Circle thanks Dena bye everyone thanks for joining bye