Merge client releases, Censorship-resistance & more - The Daily Gwei Refuel #432 - Ethereum Updates

Transcript

hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the delegate refuel where i cap the latest news in the theory ecosystem i'm your host in this assignment it has the 22nd of august 2022 alright everyone let's get into it so we have some merge related news today the clients are starting to come out for the merge so if you're running i guess like most of the clients i think are out right now or at least they're kind of like been rolling out during the day there is a new guest client out which is merge ready i'll main net merge ready i saw lighthouse release one and teku i believe the others have either been released or are in the process of being released so obviously uh post merge you'll need to run your own execution layer client such as geth or nethermind and your own consensus layer clients

such as prism or lighthouse or any of the other ones out there they all work so definitely go upgrade your nodes if you are running a solo staking setup and i you know if you're not if you're kind of like sticking with a provider such as a centralized exchange or a second service provider or even something like a rocker pool they'll kind of like handle that on the um on that that side for you if you've just kind of delegated your stake there uh but if you are kind of like running your own i guess like staking setup your own solo validator dapnode is some software that you may have come across in your travels it is basically a very nice streamlined graphical user interface or gui for you to manage all of your node infrastructure and now they announced

multi-client uh support on dapno which is now live so you can install the new uh kind of core of dap node software install new prism uh and you can now find your keys to the web3 signer and change a cl client with one click so you can change from prism to lighthouse to teku to loadstar to anything else any other clients there with one click which is awesome i think you know you can see the gif here of how easy it is to change there's basically a configuration menu here and a drop down where you can select between the major clients which is just absolutely awesome to see there so great to see dapno releasing this uh this year obviously client diversity is critically important to the health of both the execution and consensus layers uh consensus layer

client diversity is looking very healthy as i went through last week execution layout we're gonna work on post merge i think everyone wants to see the merge go through smoothly with uh with what we've got uh currently in terms of the share of the network and i mean basically we're at the point where if geth works fine then most of the network is going to be fine but definitely post merge we want to work on execution layer client diversity as well so if you're running dap node install the new update here and you'll be able to have access to all of these new features all right so brian armstrong from coinbase shared this interesting little chart here today that i wanted to kind of go over with all of you but this is basically the g20 plus crypto regulatory tracker so it's got a list of countries

here and basically five six different uh columns uh where basically there are labeled crypto framework tax aml cft cft travel rule stablecoin regulations and cbdc's and basically the status of each of these depending on the country so let's go through you know the countries that get brought up the most the united states united states down the bottom doesn't have a crypto framework and there's been no regulatory process that has been initiated here there is regulation in place for tax of course for aml and cft for a travel rule nothing in place uh and nothing kind of like being worked on for stablecoin regulation but there is regulation underway for cbdcs then you look at the other side of the spectrum

which is china where the crypto framework uh they've just basically prohibited all crypto tax it's because it's prohibited there's no tax revenue aml uh not needed because it's prohibited travel rule uh you know not needed because it's prohibited and stable coin regulation again it's prohibited but cbdc's they have regulation in place so obviously china is taking the approach of a fully controlled and regulated cbdc where the ccp has complete i guess overview of absolutely everything happening in i guess i mean i wouldn't even call cbdc crypto but they want to see everything happening on the digital currency space whereas you know the united states obviously is on the other end of the spectrum then you can see the other countries here and where they kind

of fall but i think you know as brian says yeah this is something that's not been widely reported on but each country around the world or at least kind of like the the g20 plus countries are definitely looking at this and i mean here i am in australia at home here apparently we have regulation underway for a crypto framework uh tax and aml was in place uh there's no travel rule there's pending stablecoin regulation and pending cbdc regulation but i did say today that some news came out that uh australia wants to kind of like put a framework around tokens i don't know what that's going to look like i have a feeling it's going to follow very closely with the existing regulations that exist in the u.s and maybe even other parts of the world like the uk canada

i don't know if new zealand has anything but generally you know much of the western world or i guess like what is regarded as the western world western democracies follow similar regulations so we'll have to see how that kind of shakes out but yeah i i think people often may get this kind of like uh idea that these countries aren't looking at crypto in any real big way i mean there's obviously a lot of work to be done and it's funny how like the two most filled out uh columns here are tax and aml uh because those are what has basically been front of mine right like tax uh obviously the governments want to collect as much tax as possible and obviously they want uh they need to be able to give the clarity there so people can actually file their tax return file it accurately and aml which

is anti-money laundering or just i guess like regulations around money laundering in general are top of mind for them too as we've seen over the last few weeks especially uh and then there's like travel rules and things like that uh which are less filled out so yeah just wanted to put this on your radar you can go check out this chart i'll link in youtube description below um but yeah i mean at the end of the day whether you we want it or not regulations are coming it's just all about getting the i wouldn't say good regulations but maybe like the least worst so we don't end up with like the china end of the spectrum because it is a spectrum at the end of the day i'd rather be you know much more on the spectrum of of maybe how the u.s is approaching it

even though the us's regulations aren't good either like i as i said it's the least worst system not a good system but we don't want to end up like china where they just basically outright ban everything and only have cbdc's which are complete surveillance complete control that's where we don't obviously want to be heading into so yeah it's great to see that most countries aren't heading in that direction at least not now all right so back on the tornado cash news so here was a here's a thread i posted on twitter about the little protest that happened in amsterdam here so there was a protest in amsterdam for uh the arrested tornado cash dev alex pertzeb here which uh i guess like is an unfortunate thing that has to be a

protest for this but as far as i know he's still under arrest i don't know if he's been charged formally with anything yet which is really weird considering how long he's been under arrest for uh but yeah there was a i guess like a decent showing here of people considering that this is obviously one city in the world uh and obviously happened very quickly but you can see the thread here of the people that attended and just great to see that people are protesting this i guess publicly now you know depending on your view on protests in general whether they do anything or or not like that's a whole another kind of like uh i guess um a whole nother topic of discussion i'm not going to get into but i just wanted to put this uh thread on your radar to know that there

is people out there fighting in any way that they can and kind of protesting in any way that they can for uh i guess justice here when it comes to tornado cash and especially when it comes to alex uh who is i believe the only tornado cash dev that has been arrested so far but uh i mean hopefully he will be the last hopefully he'll be freed but you know i'm not holding my breath there i feel like there's possibly more arrests to come but yeah just wanted to hire that for you guys there is i guess probably a bunch more to get through with regards to the tornado cash stuff but i did cut it down because i know i've talked about it a lot on the refuel and i explained last week how i think it's really important but i don't want the reef every refuel from now on to to

just become talking about this because i think most of us are up to speed with everything at this point and and understand where everyone kind of like sits but there are some new developments that happen over the weekend that i want to talk about especially new threads so this one comes from alex van der sand who is the an ogoj in ethereum he's been in ethereum since 2014 uh so he has been around the block so to speak so he put out a tweet thread where he said there's no ofac fork social consensus slashing or uasf needed we've gone through this on the dow wars already if too many validators refuse to add a transaction they can be ddosed if they refuse a valid block then they're the ones forking and risk slashing how to ddos a censoring validator flood the network with ver with with very complex

transactions that by the end of them touch tornado cache because of the halting problem the validator can't know what they do uh what the transactions do without executing them fully so they're forced to do unpaid computational work of course if there are enough non-censoring validators the attacker has to pay for uh some of the submitted transactions so it needs a threshold to work but if there are enough censoring validators where then we've got what we want it just takes a bit longer but isn't there a risk that some institutions would want to create what would basically be a poa network ran only by u.s compliant entities yes those are the bank chains being developed tons of those will exist i just wouldn't call them ethereum so this is another kind of like technical i guess you could call it solution to this problem of censoring validators

here but i am not sure how workable this is as alex said that there is an economic cost here of submitting these transactions uh and i'm not sure like how much of an impact it would have i think that this is just one solution of many but i just wanted to put it on your radar that this does exist uh but at the end of the day like it the motivation for doing this probably isn't there because even if like ninety percent of the validators on the network are censoring your transactions say their tornado cash transactions there is still ten percent that aren't so your transaction is going to get into a block eventually anyway the and this is what i think a lot of people don't realize is there's two kind of like main things at play here there is censorship in the the

kind of value that is not including your transactions in blocks but still mining blocks or proposing blocks on and testing two blocks on the canonical chain post merge so that's one form of it that form is less of a concern or i guess like much less of a concern than the other form which is validated as refusing to build on top of a chain that contains uh censored transactions or contains sanctioned i guess like transactions in blocks that would result in a fork and there would basically be two chains there would be kind of like the ofac chain and then there would be the canonical chain now where social slashing would come in or i guess like the real ethereum chain rather than the canonical chain where social slashing would come

in would be the community coming together and saying well these people basically want to mine on their ofac chain we don't want them in the real ethereum so we're going to slash them on the real ethereum they're probably going to end up getting slashed anyway from not mining on the main chain or stuff in activity leaks but you know we're going to take away their stake because they no longer represent the i guess will of the community whereas i don't think social slashing would be used in the scenario of you know a lot of block producers or a lot of validators not including censored transactions because and paulie now put an opinion out about this where they said you know they've refrained from commenting on the topic because of an unpopular opinion uh

actually sorry i should give some context here so polynomial is quote tweeting taken's theorem who basically highlights that ether mine which is the largest ethereum miner has stopped including tornado router transactions uh over a week ago uh so they've stopped including those transactions at all and this is on proof of work this isn't even talking about proof of stake here but then pioneer quote tweets this and said you know they think this is an unpopular opinion but they said ether mine or any block producer has the right to include transactions as they please as a community we should open a dialogue help them and attempt to resolve such issue issues using diplomatic and legal means and then component continues uh it is perfectly reasonable for a block producer to comply with their jurisdictions regulations as a community we shouldn't use fear of slashing or

social vilification pressuring them to exist etc rather help them fight these regulations if they are unjust and then they they go on with a bunch of other things and you can read this thread i'll link in in the youtube description but i want to say that like after thinking about this a lot more i actually agree with pauline here obviously i don't want to see any censorship on the network but at the end of the day whether it be miners validators slash block producers or anyone producing a block has always had the ability to include whatever transactions they want in a block you normally the transactions get included by a fee priority right if the people paying the larger fees get included first that's that's how how the fee market works on ethereum but if the block producers

don't want to include a transaction well that's totally on them yes it is a form of censorship but it is different to what i described before around building on the non-canonical chain and basically forking off into your own chain so from that perspective i agree with paulina here though i would say that even though i agree with them on this it's also a very bad kind of i guess social signal if like 90 of the network is censoring transactions or not willing to include transactions in their blocks yes your transaction will be eventually included in a block so it's not a critical you know issue where essentially uh you're completely barred from using the network altogether or interacting with certain contracts

altogether but it is a really big kind of like issue in that the ethereum's credible neutrality takes a hit and ethereum censorship resistance takes a hit even though you can still get your transactions in um from a pure social perspective it is uh it takes a hit right the credibility takes a hit there so as paulinho said we should work with these entities in order to fight bad regulations uh uh uh enable them to be able to include transactions in blocks without even knowing what's in them so for example having base layer privacy or having things like a shutterized beacon chain where you don't know what the transactions are until they're actually mined which would be a really nice stop gap solution between kind of like having full base

layer privacy and no privacy at all for transactions so using those kind of things to help them would be better than i guess like constantly threatening them with social slashing now i want to clarify my point here i am very much in favor of social slashing uh as still a last resort but as something that to to be used if uh block producers are building on top of a non-canonical chain and they're just refusing to build on top of that chain i'm not necessarily in favor of using it for block producers that are just censoring transactions or not including transactions in their blocks but those transactions are eventually included anyway and it gets very murky when you go down that path because as i said there is a strong

social signal that gets sent if a lot of the network is censoring and it kind of like waters down ethereum's credible neutrality but at the end of the day that should be solved on the technical layer rather than the social layer with those kind of like privacy things that i've been talking about but if there is kind of like an attack on the network where the chain is splitting because of that censorship because the validators are not attesting to or proposing uh blocks that contain these transactions at all uh it's more a testing kind of post merge while they're or not you know building on the the the i guess like uh right head of the chain right the canonical head of the chain then i am definitely in favor of using that nuclear option um and i i think it should be used if there

is no other other way to kind of like get around this or other way to kind of rectify this issue but i am definitely more in favor of the technical solutions before we start using any social solutions but the credible threat that social slashing exists needs to be put out there we need to kind of signal that we are willing to do this and at the end of the day when push comes to shove and we actually need to use it we better be ready to use it like there shouldn't be a strong social signal put out there and then we don't actually use it now hopefully it never comes to that point but we're not here to hope for things we're here to plan for worst case scenarios and that is what will happen in the worst case scenario but i'm going to keep promoting the technical solutions

such as pbs and cr list and shutterize beacon chain and privacy at the base layer in general because that way the block producers have i guess like plausible deniability that they don't know what transactions they're mining so how can they possibly adhere to any kind of like sanctions for example how can they possibly censor anything if they don't know what the transactions are until they've been proposed now that doesn't obviously stop people from uh of refusing to attest to a chain that contains censored transactions or contain contains like sanctioned transactions but that's different to i guess not including things in blocks because they've been sanctioned and stuff like that right so hopefully that clears up some of the i guess some nuances around that there's

also a really excellent uh post here from oh i've got to get this tab it's gone it's lost on me from bitmexier where they talk about how there are a lot of technical nuances when it comes to ethereum proof of stake and censorship and this blog post is linked at the bottom here i highly recommend giving this a read because i actually learned a lot from this and bitmex research is one of the best research blogs out there but basically there are seven different scenarios here that uh could happen in uh the ofac situation on a proof of stake ethereum and these are the seven listed here uh i i actually get technically eight um here but like the seventh is just ignoring the olfact rules all together which i guess isn't exclusive to a theorem proof of stake so technically there's seven

but i'm not going to go through them all i want you to read this blog post because it's very important to understand the technical nuances with fear and proof of stake and how it's fundamentally different to a proof of work network on the technical side especially ethereum proof of work in saying that the similarities and why i've been saying that proof of work proof of stake doesn't matter is in the fact that censorship can happen on both in very similar ways and those two main ways of not including transactions in blocks at all and then refusing to build on a chain that has sent that um sentence transactions as part of of of the chain right so those are still the same whether it's proof of work with stake depos poa it doesn't matter right what

matters is the technical nuances uh when you get into the weeds of how the uh protocol actually handles this on on a technical level and that's exactly what bit max's blog post goes through so i highly recommend checking that out i'll link it in the youtube description below uh just a couple more things to get through here band tech has been putting together a really nice little i guess graphic here showing uh the individual validators i think i talked about this last week about which ones i've committed to not sensor and which ones uh haven't said anything yet but they've also broken down the individual lido validators by stake so everyone always says oh well lido has over 30 of the stake yes they do right yes there is potential centralization

vectors there but lido is not a monolithic organization it is an organization made up of 29 different operators here as you can see listed out in this graphic and each of those operators has a different uh percentage of stake allocated to them but none of them have a um a a kind of like a 30 at all like not even close to that so i think right now lido governance can't actually kick out any validators i think it would be up like lighter delighto dao i'm not 100 across like what the powers are right now lidar was certainly not decentralized at this point in time but i think it's very important whenever someone brings up lido as this monolithic entity to tell them no it's

not i mean there is the st token which i guess like introduces it it does introduce centralization into the mix because obviously these stadium providers are at the mercy of that st because uh the stf has a claim on the eighth in in their services but the services themselves are all part of different providers they're you know they're not all based in the us right they're globally distributed here they have different teams behind them uh and and some of them are just pure staking providers some of them are uh teams that do multiple things like for example you you have here uh prism right prismatic labs they build an eth2 client right they're building the prism client but they're also a validator as part of lido here so

there is just kind of like a very diverse set of validators a very diverse set of uh sorry taking providers and this list is going to grow over time um so yeah i i just i have a pet peeve about people saying that lido is this monolithic entity but in saying that we obviously don't want lido's dominance to be as high as it is in general like just uh for the kind of like uh reasons i outlined with the st token especially and i've said before how i believe that once withdrawals are enabled we'll see this great reshuffling of stake and also as more competition comes online and improves there's going to be people staking with that instead of instead of lighter there so yeah i just wanted to highlight that little graphic there uh for you in the i guess like same uh topic of the kind of like sanctions

and validated centralization and everything like that um and victor buenan put out a really great great kind of um tweet here i was quote tweeting something that matt huang put out from paradigm but basically he said gentle reminder that without privacy all that we're building is the most perfect version of warrantless financial surveillance technology and he's hit the nail on the head here both bitcoin and ethereum like the vanilla networks themselves have absolutely no privacy they are so bad at privacy that if you send uh uh funds from one of your addresses to another one and you only do one transaction those uh addresses are forever linked for there's no way to unlink them so that's how bad the privacy is and that's just kind of like one simple example

so because of that if we don't develop privacy solutions if we don't uh improve privacy on ethereum then we are creating as viktor says here the perfect version of warrantless financial surveillance technology which is dystopian as hell like that is the worst outcome of this technology and that's why i've said time and time again privacy is both a right and privacy is and should be one of the top priorities right next to scaling for the ethereum ecosystem because without privacy none of this means anything like ethereum does not give people um more freedom and and and give people kind of like more sovereignty if there's no privacy i'm not talking about you know the fact that we have to have base

layer privacy i'm talking about everything that can add more privacy to ethereum should be worked on should be kind of put out there i know we've kind of like taken a back seat here because of the ofac sanctions and everyone's kind of like in limbo right now but that shouldn't take away from the fact that we need to keep building privacy solutions we need to fight for them we need to fight the regulations in the real world to ensure that we can keep building privacy solutions because at the end of the day as i've said before privacy to me is a human right we all have a right to privacy and we shouldn't lose our right to that and we shouldn't be able to uh not use the tools such as tornado cash just because criminals use it because at the end of the day criminals

use end-to-end encrypted messaging too but you know that's not banned they tried to ban it at one point and governments around the world uh some of them have banned it but at the end of the day the u.s hasn't right maybe i hope they they don't ever ban it but they haven't right now and people use it and it's very easily accessible so the same should be true for our financial activity on networks like ethereum we should be able to get full privacy of our transactions now that's the optimistic thing that's kind of like me saying that we should be able we should be able to get these things but there is unfortunately something that happened over the weekend that uh with aztec network that saddened me so aztec i believe the uh most of the aztec team

or at least the founders definitely are based in the uk they're not based in the us but because the uk is part of that five wise five eyes organization that i talked about last week uh aztec protocol is still at the mercy of something like the tornado cash sanctions or something like the us now they put out this thread where they said we are aware of reports that ftx is warning users not to interact with aztec as a result we want to underscore our current and ongoing risk reduction framework to implement practical deterrence and measure their effectiveness and then they go on to the thread about what they're doing here now the most concerning thing to me here and i don't necessarily blame aztec for this i blame obviously the poor regulations for this but the most concerning thing to me is this tweet here so uh where where is the

tweet where uh it's uh god where is the tweet i think it's this one so this is what they're going to be implementing on the aztec networks system-wide daily asset deposit caps ip specific deposit rate limiting single address pending deposit caps and constraints on the escape hatch window activating only in case of a liveness failure the reason why i find this to be really bad is because all this does is punish the regular user every single person that wants to use privacy tools as a criminal to do money laundering to evade sanctions is going to get around each of these relatively easily especially on a network like that is actually

decentralized like ethereum and that's why i said that tornado cash sanctions don't make much sense because north korea or whoever wasn't using the front end right anyone who wanted to have anyone who wanted to launder money anyone who wanted to kind of like evade sanctions was not using the front end they were using the immutable smart contracts on ethereum that still exist today tornado cache is still in operation that wasn't taken down so all that happened is that they've punished regular users and then they've also introduced this chilling effect where everyone is so scared now to build support privacy solutions they're so scared that they're going above and beyond what's required of the sanctions and blocking people who even are even just kind of

like one degree of separation away from these addresses from the from the tornado cache addresses and it's led to that big chilling effect there and the chilling effect has now hit aztec which is really really sad because i love aztec i mean disclosure i'm i'm an investor in aztec but i mean i not surprised by this i'm just extremely disappointed that it's come to this i understand why they have to do it but at the end of the day like we really do need to keep building these solutions and we need to build them as anons we need to build them in a decentralized way and i know it's really easy for me someone who is both not a us citizen and he's not building any of these solutions to say this but i mean i guess like i'm in that position to be able to say it like i

know a lot of these teams can't say it because they're building it they don't want to be doing this they don't want to be putting in these restrictions most of them if not all of them are building these solutions to kind of get you know give people privacy and give them something that they believe is a right but they're being forced their hands are being forced here they are not anonymous people they are based in jurisdictions that have extradition treaties with the us they're not going to just i guess like ignore the sanctions they're not going to be i guess willy-nilly about this they're going to be very conservative especially if they have lawyers breathing down their necks saying hey if you don't do this there is a risk you're going to jail for 30 years like i think people are being very harsh on

these people that have to comply i think what should be happening is that instead of going after these people that are complying with these sorts of things and then going above and beyond as well which i think is stupid but it happens we should be fighting the regulations themselves so anyway i'm gonna leave that at that you can go read this whole aztec thread for a breakdown of this year but i just thought it was quite sad and disappointing that uh and not surprising that aztec has to go down this path now but that's the reality of the situation right now and finally on the i guess uh censorship resistant front we have mallows here with a thread about the there's a chart here that shows the current state of ethereum dapps and defy and areas where we excel and others

where points of failure exist which i think is a really really good chart because you can see here what is sensorable what is uh uh unknown uh trusted and immutably immutable experiences and what is censorship resistant and provably trusted and this basically takes my layered approach to what is kind of like sensible and what is not and i guess like maps it out here so you can see on the far right side there is censorship resistant and provably trusted uh things such as the union swap smart contract is immutable can't be tampered with uh can't be changed even by governance right uh whereas on the other side on the left side you have sensorable such as the unisop front end or the rv front end or a generic kind of front end very very sensible shouldn't expect any censorship

resistance from that at all and then you have all these other entities here i'll link this in the description for you to check out i'm not gonna go over all of it here but there's also a thread that accompanies it as well and it breaks it all down so i highly recommend giving the thread a read i will link it there for you and just gonna get through the rest of this because i'm going over time here so i've been seeing a lot of people talk about ethereum layer one activity lately and how it's like at rock bottom and gas prices are really cheap you know that's totally fine obviously it's come down a lot from the bull market but i don't think it makes sense to just look at layer one activity and and that and and that's it you need to start accounting

for layer 2 activity because there is actually a lot of layer 2 activity these days on optimism on arbitrary on these other layer 2 networks out there you need to look at that activity and pair that with ethereum layer 1 to get a more accurate view of what's happening on the network now people will say well layer twos aren't really paying uh much to layer one uh in gas feeds i'm like yeah okay they aren't and they're probably gonna be paying even less once 4844 comes into play but that's not the point the point is that their activity is moving or at least some of the activity is moving from layer one to layer two so we should be taking it in aggregate and also layer one gas feeds as soon as the bull market comes back in earnest guys layer one gasoline is shooting right

back up like there's no way they're going to stay at these levels when the market gets hot again that's just the way it is now you know long long term will we have gas fees still kind of like high on layer one i think we will as long as we get these breakout applications that we all hope will get especially on these layer twos but in the current world or at least for the next couple years as soon as the market gets hot the gas phase go up it's pretty much looking in correlation with each other but at the same time there are people moving from layer one to layer two so we should look at layer two metrics and and kind of like uh pair them with layer one instead of just looking at layer one there uh and add on to that there is kind of like a tweet

from orbit of finance today that basically showed some of this so you can see here the top five wraps with the most new accounts in the last seven days you can see arbitrary optimism now option one optimism arbitrary nova star net and zk sync and you can see all the numbers here of of that so this is what i mean tracking transactions tracking new accounts tracking tbl i mean obviously tvl is one of my most hated metrics but it's still relevant to you know in some capacity tracking uh fear revenue tracking smart contracts deployed right tracking interactions with the contracts all that sort of stuff should be taken as well as the layer one metrics and put together and compared with all of that rather than just taking layer one and in that vein of thinking as well you shouldn't just take layer two in as a vacuum

either you should kind of like compare it all together to get the full ethereum network transactional activity there all right last up here we have a thread from astaria looking at uh the astaria 3 actor model and what that means for the future of nft lending so you can go check out this thread i just wanted to put it on your radar because i know recently there's been a bit of discussion about nft lending especially because i think we saw like a liquidation cascade on board eight on the board ape yup club so i i kind of recommend reading this um this thread here for how her stario is targeting nft lending or tackling nft lending it's gonna be a big thing i don't think that just because one protocol failed will mean that others fail i think nfts obviously are big right now are going to

continue to grow and people will want liquidity on it i mean today nfts don't have to be just your random profile pictures uh nfts or anything like that eventually nfts will be uh people's d to their houses and then you could potentially put that up as collateral on something like astaria and borrow against it just like you would put it up as collateral in a bank to borrow against it right so it's all about not just nft profile picture stuff that we're seeing today but anything that is a unique item that you can put up as as collateral can be done through platforms like astaria but i think on that note that's going to be it for today so thank everyone for listening and watching be sure to subscribe to the channel if you haven't yet give it a thumbs up subscribe to newsletter join the discord

channel and i'll catch you all tomorrow thanks everyone