The Massive 'Infra to Apps' Shift in Crypto Investing with Wei Dai

Transcript

fat wallet thesis you guys haven't heard that one tell us I think this might be a controversial point but I think if you do the math the Bas ler will have to do this the most important advancements in infrastructure over the last cycle like since 2020 how should we think about the progression of interoperability amongst all of these clusters and like bringing this all together as a whole welcome back to the rollup your home for technical talks and open conversations that shape the modular future nothing on today's show is to be construed as Financial advice you can see our full disclosures list at the roll up.co Ventures sit back relax and enjoy today's episode after a quick word from some of our awesome

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fukat before this and and yeah yeah the one KX Founders uh Founders event right yeah yeah yeah I'm not sure if you saw the you know in the process of winning tweets that that we that we put out yeah yeah in the process of winning yeah yeah it's a it's a you know it's a you know it's a joke but no no it's all good I we like the 1kx guys Peter Peter's a good friend of ours um so yeah we're glad to have you on way I mean it's your first time here um you have a you have a PhD from UC B San Diego San Diego rip rip to my research um what you get your PhD in um so computer science that's you know the bfield but my specialization was

cryptography oh epic how did you choose that yeah so you know I I think people in this Bas my guess cryptography had a lot of applications blockchains you know but I actually knew about Bitcoin since the early days when I was in high school you know like right early like 2010s and yeah like you know cryptography was not really something that you know I saw as okay I'm going to do this to do blockchain right it was like okay I was actually doing like thetical computer science and and cryptography was actually really interesting from technical perspective right back then I was I was a nerd you know I was okay I want to push the field forwards I want to like just learn about cryptography you know do the science um and this is like mid 201010 and that's how it got in you know it was yeah like

I I was just doing the science you know doing the research that's what I was interested in how much longer do you think sha 256 and RSA how much longer you think those are going to last it's going to be a long conversation um but yeah so I think shot two is probably not going to get broken uh anytime soon right even with Quon computers qu computers doesn't really have uh a speed over breaking hasch functions uh um I mean yes but you know like we could uh could we could actually mitigate that effect uh you know like gr resarch does have like a square R speed up not to get into technical details but you know I I I don't think the war is is going to it's going to end if gold comps will be here and you know all these things are

actually pretty battle tested RSA actually it's actually harder to break RSA than elliptic cryptography that's used in ethereum for example right okay so maybe could you describe like the current cryptographic architecture of ethereum with its elliptic curves and then like how does that differ from something like you know the like the RSA protocols that like visa and like when someone you know buys something online they put in their credit card and that's the cryptography that you know kind of like the like the offchain online world uses like what is the difference between that and the cryptography on ethereum yeah so it's actually very very similar um and you know ethereum uses basically one primitive it's called uh it's signature schemes right ecdsa and uh and

currently you know ether 2.0 consensus uses BLS signatures over this curve called BLS uh 123 381 I think uh and these are actually very well understood right but when you talk about like rollups uh you know ZK that's a very very like different branch of cryptography right this is called programmable cryptography right and that's so there's a difference between you know cryptography for for web to like encryption signatures and theum also uses that right signature schemes are very very well understood and then this new school of like what I call cryptography for web 3 or programmable cryptography that is you know way more fancy it's like it's slower just computation overhead there's like a lot of progress right um you know we can get

into details right but but actually you know if you think about um what cryptography does it's it's really a tool right and if you program you know piece of smart contracts on a rollup you don't actually get to see the DK part right and and I think like a lot of times um I think people actually over index on the cryptography but actually it's really about the functionality right and in cryptography is really just defensive measure uh to make sure you have the right properties but you know to the end programmer most of the time uh you don't actually want to worry about the cryptography right behind the scenes so could user yeah we go into cryptography or could like talk about application yeah I'm gonna take this right into this tweet about this technical domains investing into applications yeah okay um okay so I

think this is a great segue um from while I'd love to go deep into cryptography we might have to save this for a visual uh podcast where where we do like a presentation like I'm much more of a visual learner and I think our audience is as well but what is funny is that you were trolling Kyle Sani on Twitter about his tweet about uh being a a a founder or a venture capitalist that's not Technical and then you went and to do a quote tweet that was like some takeaways from a a a venture capitalist that or or researcher that is Technical and so like when you're looking at the scope of these projects that that you guys are investing in at 1kx um like how much of te of your technical expertise do you use to look forward into valuations and how does

like your technical background uh influence your decision-making from the fun perspective and like how does it change the way that that you see crypto projects definitely I'll answer that question in two ways right so I think um one is really about kind evaluation of of the actual technical meter project and I think this uh really shows up in you know looking at DK and F project and um you know it's just easier to actually understand is there something that's uh really happening here or is it something that's vaporware right and um and for that I I can you got aett pretty good you know quick quick High Lev take um but actually that's not the important part I think really what makes a great investor is really about active

investing and and being uh contrarian and being Contra cyclical and and trying to find the next new thing and I think that's a part you know if you actually read my thread uh I think in infrastructure early stage and in crypto right it's we're investing emerging technology that will be the nextal platforms and when you think about what comes next right and Tech will improve right there will be next if you look at how technology have have really developed over the last century really there needs to be technical advances to really enable the next um D platforms that will be fundamentally different than what we have today and I believe that they that'll continue to be true which means that to really catch a

venture case you want to invest in things that actually are not new right and there's two ways this could go one is um you know you you can just find them uh someone come up with an idea you know maybe this was ethereum you know when when was only Bitcoin around and you invest in that and second is I think more active work and that's the part I like to do which is hey I'm a researcher let me think about what would be the next step and let me talk about it right and let me work with the founders and actively try to work with them together as a team to to to figure out okay what is the the next thing and I think that's the part that's uh really differentiate a technical investor rather than you

know an investor that um maybe more narrative driven or okay you know like when things are more more to risk you know I I just love to think about what comes next and and do that together with Founders yeah yeah it's like so it's it's a it's a you can identify something that has is net new but by kind of being there at the right time and like understanding where where the space could go and that could exist already or you could have your own ideas your own Thoughts From This research perspective and then go out and I mean either persuade or work with with Founders that that are are you know top of the line and like work with them to like uh build this idea together that that kind of stems internally because of

your technical background ex exactly yeah very cool okay and so you you mentioned an important thing which I think was like the infrastructure for blockchain and for the space has made this kind of jump to being like it's it's ready I mean like my takea away from from your first point was like the infro side has been invested in it's been built it's been you know it's ready to kind of field the next what's next these net new applications and you recently also tweeted that blockchains are application platforms um and I also think that 1kx is pioneering this kind of shift to really wanting to invest in applications and has already done so so maybe you could walk us through like your mental model for this next era of blockchains being application platforms

then like why you believe that and how that's driving some of your uh your investing thesis yeah so 1kx we have a pretty broad uh set of investment categories right so I focus focus on infrastructure and you know so I I don't really look at applications myself and that's actually you know Peter's Peter's Focus area and so but you know we actually discussed a lot in um you know it's the next generation of of U platforms ready and you know if you look at application today you might deploy smart contracts on ethereum salana you might want to do app chain right and um and a lot of people are doing that right more and more applications are are becoming becoming chains app chains you know there's different Frameworks and I think really you will evolve um you know

some people talk about this like info cycle application cycle I I think it's really uh both are advancing right there's infrastructure that we buildt that enable the next set of applications because you know maybe applications today will uh we run a problem so for example if you look at application in the last cycle when they're built at smart contracts we run into fees spikes right and and that's why infrastructure evolved to say okay let's do horizontal scalability with rollups and let have L fee markets right uh but then we run into interoperability problems right so I think there's going to be a back and forth where we'll have the current of infrastructure and applications will saturate that uh you know for facture

and and figure out okay actually we have problems and then infrastructure will evolve then to solve that those set of problems and then you know you have the py back and forth and and but but at the same time right it's basically expanding so as where we now do you think are we in the Seesaw it it's the Seesaw is like happening like at the same time always right always always I don't think there's going to be like a you know I versus Incycle what do you and maybe another way to ask that question is like what do you think are the most transformative infrastructure unlocks net new infrastructure unlocks that have occurred in recent years like since we kind of got our last wave of new applications what what what have been those new infrastructure yeah so like you know I mean we had ethereum and that gave way

to Unis SW swap but then you know we had gas cost that spiked and so we couldn't invent new net new applications because we had high gas cost we had to solve that so that the Seesaw went to infrastructure now we've improved the infrastructure but like what do you think were the most important piece like the most important advancements in infrastructure over the last cycle like since 2020 obviously rollups obviously it is ways to launch blockchains without uh with trust minimized um Security in a way that doesn't actually you know congest the base layer right horizontal scalability I think we're moving in that direction and you know there's like um Asis right so for example if you share

the same da layer you actually not too hard on scal level when that da layer has a bottleneck um but you know at the side of M layer there set of aggregation we don't actually run B so I think if you look at this past cycle obviously it is these horizontally scalable platforms right and then which then evolves into clusters and not the key question now is you know for these rollup clusters how did do these rollups applications actually contribute to um you know the overall ecosystem right do we actually have Network effects right and I think that's still in the process being figured out I think different clusters are proposing different mechanisms to like build this network effect right but I don't think we're at the ing game yet where you know like really uh you ethereum value CR is a real problem

right yeah what do you think the consequences of of like making it very easy to launch a new app chain what do you think are the consequences on E value acrel um it depends on how ethereum or other roll clusters fix their tokenomics or you know what type of so I think if you think about um why etherum Solana like this all1 model really works is because every single application uses the same gas token and so if you have an application deployed there your users will have to hold the token that you should share the same wallet infrastructure meaning that if you are user for one application you have Assets Now that can go to other applications if you just think from this first principle apply this rollups right actually there's friction there right okay sure you might using the same wallet but you had to bridge now right

and um and you you don't actually have to hold the same gas token so will this actually have this effects on the cluster token I think I think the answer is very very uh unclear very open question right at the moment right so it can't roll up clusters should design like correct tokenomics to actually replicate the success of these all on so when you're thinking about and and let's use kind of rollup CL maybe like a a portfolio company of yours like as a proxy for these rollup clusters or even for ethereum maybe okay so so yeah so like how would you recommend ZK sync build Network effects yeah so ZK sync is building elastic chain right it's uh techn on technical level it's where seing era was one rollup now there's

there's the settlement contract right and every single rollup that's in elastic chain in the elastic chain cluster will share the same uh liquidity settlement contract and they are building interoperability Solutions where you can read and write to other chains asynchronously and with preon pre-confirmation this will be you know about one to2 second latency and I think they're shipping this uh so this actually live on mainnet and they're shipping different components of this you know uh into next year um and you know the Network effect comes from liquidity uh sh liquidity and comes from interop right it's not exactly the same same interop as ethereum daps so in the sense that it's not within the same

block but that's actually the key reason why you can add more and more elastic chains um without without a without a bik and so yeah one point on that we've spoken about this idea of monetary velocity and if you can get the velocity of money flowing through your ecosystem at a higher rate then you can get rehypothecation at like the good part of rehypothecation flowing you can get liquidity into new applications more easily more quickly and then you can reuse that you can kind of turn it over faster and faster and then that ends up leading to more efficient Network effects as this liquidity moves amongst your network faster and faster and so to your point interop uh connecting These Chains together uh all of this adds the monetary velocity within an ecos system

exactly yeah and I think if you are building a rollup and you are deciding where do I do I build this do I build this directly on top of ethereum do I build this on elastic chain um you look for value added by that ecosystem to you right do I have users that's already on there are they already using the assets that I want to support on my on my rollup will I create assets that these these these users want want to purchase right or hold and I think that's how rollup clusters think about answering that question for which set of application rollup Builders uh is key right like is there a network fact um you know how do I increase monetary velocity within my ecosystem how do I and more

importantly how do I ACR part of that value right and I think the problem for ethereum is that uh there's so much value that's going into into these al2s and actually so much value that's internal to these al2 at a case in point if you look at base um the amount of value that's maintained on base uh natively it's quickly growing it's growing way faster than conically Bridge value and the reason is because right Bas is a vibrant ecosystem people want to launch mem coins on there and that asset is not on ethereum it's actually on base and and you will not actually move easily into other Roll-Ups even in the super chain but wouldn't it also just move to L1 at some point as well uh could it currently can't actually do

that well you could sell it to eth you you could sell your M coin and then go to bridge it to L1 yes so isn't isn't any sort of value creation on l2s also then could potentially be valuable for ium L1 in the future Redstone is def's modular Oracle supporting over 100 clients on over 50 chains offering 1,000 assets Redstone is the leader for Bitcoin staking and yield bearing assets they offer the most robust customizable price feeds available in any model join the Redstone exhibition today [Music]

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I I agree I think yeah that's a really good point but what if I'm uh you know um another Super chain user and I want to hold some M coin from base what do I do yeah you're not going to L1 at all right and and I think you know there's a main problem right which is um yes it creates more assets and and kind of just liquidity that's on on on the rollup but that actually doesn't get Buble to like all1 or other l2s so I actually rolled this E3 resource post U I think around EC couple ago yeah so I think we can conically Bridge asset from L1 to L2 right from L2 to L3 we should actually do it through reverse way as well so I call this reverse canonical bridging or

two-way canonical bridging where um you could say that actually if you have a base mean coin I can actually Bridge it back to L1 right using the exact same security mechanism that uh you know the super chain uses same the same will apply to for for example elastic chains right so you could have this effect where maybe Deen right this uh super super chain uh arbitr orbit L3 will be able to say okay no our assets actually brid back to the you know Arbitron one then back to L1 but then can be going going to base or going to elastic elastic change like get arum I think this could be a standard actually and so is that your mental model for like this cross rollup cluster because we talked a lot about like this like inside of these rollup cluster interrup in terms of value AC cruel and I think their

standardizations are happening way faster than kind of like broader standards but like is this a similar mental model that you have to like the broader cross rollup interoperability or like how should we think about the progression of interoperability amongst all of these clusters and like bringing this all together as a as a whole yeah um I think that's a really good question and maybe what I have just mentioned you know two-way conal bridging is one way to part yeah like across cross cluster um and that's actually very simple EIP I think we could uh the community could come together and agree on um but yeah there's a lot of other other aspect to this um you know I think to be honest inter within a cluster it's probably

something that will be will be Sol first and then we will see interal between clusters and and I think maybe the question is more to ethereum right as rup clusters proliferate and build their own ecosystems how will the three respond as as a base layer got it so the two-way canonical bridging is is functionally or technically possible because it's both of these coins are ERC 20s but like what are the implications on security and like the trust principles of of moving an asset that's native on base like back onto the L1 um it will use the same settlement contract right so uh imagine when you deposit a or withdraw from base you're

interacting with settlement contract that base has on one this will be the exact same mechanism but instead of for colic R asset you will be for ass on base so so the security is effectively exactly the same you would have a similar like mint lock or mint burn ex mechanism so imagine basically on base there's a system contract that will say if you transfer asset to me I will actually mint it for you on L1 right yeah and so and this is actually creates a lot more net effect uh ethereum base layer and because it actually requires storage um so right now the sement contracts on L1 for the all these rollups it actually requires minimal storage and so it's not actually paying much ethereum but imagine if you actually to bridge reverse reverse

Bridge a lot of mem coins back to all1 each of this uh so for each coin and each holder this actually incur incur a uh storage slot right and so this is actually a good way for ethereum to actually like price these things right um you know as natural fat you get to actually pric this in in in the form of like payment into into all1 yeah and um a as uh you're kind of like moving this in into the L1 um this wouldn't require you to sell the token which was like one example of like potentially like a cruel back to to eth but it would also solve for some of this parasitic L2 type of rhetoric because you would end up with more of more value acrel to the ethereum protocol and then in in kind of like

transitively ultimately back to to eth the token and so how does like when you're thinking about storage slots like what is how what are the economics behind that because I mean we we hear a lot about like transactions and da and like how some of these things end up acre value to eth but we don't hear so much about storage slots like what what is that in terms of a settlement contract what are kind of the economics that are around that and how do they ACR value yeah so if you look at ethereum uh today um the state is increasing right it's it's we actually removed the the upod to uh uh you know um uh destroy contract codes and I I think uh there so there state in this history right

history is forever growing and state and then there's the question like do we actually uh try to remove part of the state so right now if you pay for storage slot is 20K gas a one and you that stot will be there forever right so in fact if you're paying it one one time and every single full node uh that want to produce an ex transactions will have to store that s slot right so this is a conversation on 4444 do we actually try to limit amount of working State over time and and you know do we do state rent so Sal does State rent and I think it's actually the correct choice and so um so effectively if you have state R ethereum I think it's you know like put out this four four parts post which includes uh this transition right once we move into state run so every single

piece of state that has to be stored at o1 will actually generate a value for that one because it needs to be paid for is this part of The Purge I believe so I I'm actually not too familiar with exactly which part fits into which part but this sounds like The Purge yeah cuz this is this is an uh attempt to solve the state bloat issue on ethereum and limit the amount of storage slots would that would that limit this kind of possibility for two-way economical bridging if you could if you had to limit the amount of meme coins that you can Bridge back to the L1 well it's it's all it's a market right and and I think um ethereum will only ACR that value if if it's market for um storage slots it's actually saturated right if you look at da it's almost there it's almost

saturated almost getting there right but before yeah price is zero by the time this comes out it'll be saturated exactly and so we we actually want to use the storage slots yeah if you look at if everyone move to move to L2 rollup even all3 how much storage will be R1 it it's basically zero like we have some State commitments and and and that's it like you know we're we're using a lot of Da but like the actual State Storage on L1 for these uh uh settlement Contra is very very small and so this is actually a way a mechanism for for etherum to take control right of like of of this Market Market and actually put more Demand on there and so I I think it's actually a really good way to fix fix the rollup ecosystem and gr more value back to ethereum um yeah you know what's

interesting is that some of these uh newer um rollup ecosystems that are being launched or some of them call themselves rollup ecosystems they've seen these they've seen this problem and like they've had the advantage of of being able to build their Stacks after ethereum rollup Centric roadmap has played out after Cosmos app chains have played out and so so yeah I don't know if you guys did any of these recent ones like like the ones that come to mind are Anisha Delta pod and these are all kind of like pod and Delta are interesting that they're calling themselves almost like consensus list and then anisha's got this L1 just used for State Transitions and for liquidity for their um l2s basically app chains focused and and so we have these Dynamics where

these these ecosystems are like solving these problems that ethereum's facing where it's like is a theum an execution environment is it a DA layer it's like no you know inti's L1 is just for State transition in just as kind of like this like proof of liquidity type of Hub uh and then uh Delta and po have these kind of like domain models and these consensus lless models and so you know I'm curious on like what your thought of like this next iteration of these rollup ecosystems are like is this something that like we'll keep being iterated on are these exciting to you like like what like like it's just it's it's interesting to me because they've able to being built these they're able to build these ecosystems after seeing all the problems of Cosmos and ethereum yeah and and you know taking a step back I

think so blockchains are application platforms and application platforms could take different shapes and forms and they don't actually have to be an L1 blockchain right and I think the the way that we have evolved from ethereum L1 to rollups to Shar settlement to sh sequencing to you know PR confirmation um that's a a very specific way of of doing things and and it has gotten us to a point that you know it's hard to navigate right it I would say it's a local op Optimum point right but if you just zoom out let's build application platforms for applications with security interoperability sovereignty for the application and network effect right and

and if that if that's the question I think there's other ways to approach this and we've seen increasing number of projects uh trying to take take this first principal approach how do we build application platforms what are the features uh that could be different than the current platforms um I think you know if you take a really long view of this there'll be better and B platforms I I don't think uh Solana today right I think it will quickly congest uh just like etherum did in 2020 and yeah and you know there's also concretely there's a couple of different advances that is will be really hard to integrate back into ethereum salana so for example order list consensus it turns out if you just do settlement uh where if you want to do auctions at the

service you don't actually need ordering and and we can actually have faster way of of of getting things um arriving into consensus uh another example is so that's un consist later right we talk about parel execution and um it turns out right order this consensus actually goes really well with parall execution because you know certain ordering doesn't matter when things are parallel right and so um so yeah so I think we're seeing increasing number of projects you mentioned a few right P Delta initia um yeah we're we're very very excited about this you know new newer directions yeah and so you wrote in one of your posts like these are these are interesting from an application perspective because uh unlike ethereum you can you can uh

quote unquote tax economic flow through through the system and have that accruit to the base asset or you can build interoperability out of the box like Cosmos did but then Cosmos kind of struggled to really get the the underlying Network effects of having like one Hub right you know the cosmos Hub never really kind of accured that value and then then you could also have and you know I think Anisha does this well I'm not so sure about pods and Delta they're a little bit more early in development you have these like uh Sovereign app chains that can control their their me their their transaction logic you can do application specific sequencing for some of your uh apps on on the L1 per se so like you get these like features this feature set out of the box that feels like The Logical next iteration of like the the broader

Community agreeing that like horizontal scaling is the way but then like here's how we can improve on it um um and so I mean from an investing thesis it it must seem like an easy kind of idea to back or to like uh like see value and just just basically on those three iterations that you put in that pose yeah definitely um interoperability is what applications want sovereignty right able to retain own meev customize a VM um and third more importantly taxing taxing the economic uh value economic kind of velocity in in equal system I think this might be a controversial point but I think if you do the math the baser will have to do this um you know I I don't think it's a question of um you know

should Bas do this or not it's a question of like exactly like how much right how to do it properly and and I think the analogy I want to use is you know blockchains are application platform about countries and applications on there are you know maybe like companies and individuals and you know the country should generat a network of fact security right for its for its uh uh constituents but constituents will create value and then contribute back to to to that country right um and and I think that's a really good analogy um because in in a system like that you have to think about you know how do how do we properly set up the you know incentives economic uh factors so that everything work properly that that just uh you know we hear that analogy a lot like the country's analogy

for some reason I thought about the fat protocol thesis and fat application thesis and I had never really thought about that and the country analogy with that cuz like in that in that analogy you have citizens maybe those are the applications and the and then you have the country is the protocol and the like the people in a country make money like they have they you make a living right and then you have the country that also makes money and they make money by taxing like the citizens or you know in in the country and so it's not so much about fat application or fat protocol thesis it's more it's both fat ecosystem fat ecosystem fat wallet thesis yeah yeah haven't heard that one tell us the fat wall thesis is is the is

the aggregation of all of this it's like the the whatever whoever controls the end user relationship can basically aggregate all the applications and all the chains and just control all the order flow as well as the end user kind of relationship and just have that have this fat value ACR like metamask charges think half a percent or 0.85% on swaps um Phantom has a similar thing so these these these wallets are like this next era of this application thesis I I would argue that e ethereum is the the wallet of the app chain ecosystem and actually David Hoffman from bankless made made this on like a panel that he was on basically that ethereum is the Launchpad

for other app chains and it's been the only ecosystem that has encouraged other projects to launch their own chain and so in the same way that you're talking about wallets as this middle ecosystem uh aggregation of users as well as chains and kind of like that intermediary is probably not but it's like more of a portal into that world ethereum is the portal into distribution ex yeah plat platform application platforms also offer distribution right the way I think about this is like think about App Store and like AWS so like we want to build a blockchain that's both simultaneously like AWS like the back end but also like the App Store yeah right and and one of your guys' portco abstract which disclaimer we also uh

have invested in abstract like seedr 2022 when everything was dead um they're like I think same round yeah they're building you guys have way more siid but that's okay um they're building like this consumer portal in addition to This Global wallet and like also have this this idea of like this app store that you come on you interact with uh and then you kind of have like this consumer fund chain like um I don't know the question is like what makes abstract appealing to you guys uh now and I know you guys Double Down once they were kind of uh building this out we're kind of coming into a wrap up here so I think this is a good place to kind of end out as like abstract as an application platform why is this a good example of

something that you believe in as like the future of distribution and of kind of blockchain for consumers yeah definitely so you know brands are really effective ways of um building building a platform right and and I think to a certain exent ethereum salana has built a brand but when you actually have like Web Two Builders like you know traditional Founders coming in and and building a brand that is not necessarily like from the CRI native Community right I think that that is somewhat underexplored and I think the P team abstract um you know is basically doing the in the best way possible right and and so this is like coming at from a different perspective right how do you

really create this community and I think um yeah so that's really the The Edge that they have I think they will continue to uh to harness that the edge that they have right and and uh you'll bring n new users to the space um which is perhaps not possible if you just just talk about okay let's build a new blockchain right but what about their funnel right so like let's say they have this brand they bring users on chain like what is the what is your vision for like blockchain as application platforms as like a funnel for Value ACR for like abstract token at the end or even like all the way down to eth at the end like like how does this work how does I how does pudgy penguin bring in buys a toy comes on chain p world then goes to abstract how does that turn into like

Revenue I think you had to bring Peter onto the podcast I have debate was Peter a lot you know because um you know it's good debates in the sense that look I I do infrastructure yeah and Peter focuses you know on on consumer and and if you look at web too actually the applications typically verticalized and become the infrastructure right with Google Facebook meta right and but in the web F world has has it has been you know different right right the the infrastructure becomes the bigger player and um you know how this evolve into the future is something that's open question I think we'll see uh we'll see interesting consumer applications verticalized and become infrastructure we'll also see right infrastructure project becoming Brands themselves like

Solana and so I think there's convergence here um and yeah and both sides will will continue to make progress right and and there's there's players to watch on on either side it's the it's the final loop from the beginning of the conversation of the cycle so way it's been an absolute pleasure thank you so much for coming out man thanks for having me it's been fun yeah great thanks man