Seigniorage-style protocols and decentralized stablecoins

Transcript

okay thank you and welcome um as i said tough competition with perfect weather in paris vitalik talking downstairs but still excited to talk about stable coins today i'm working on cello and we describe cello as mobile open wheel mobile means cello is a mobile first blockchain that enables ultra light client type of transactions from a simple phone very very efficient it is open source it is a evm compatible layer 1 which is proof of stake and it is fully permissionless and it powers real use cases um real use

cases means um since for example transactions settle very fast within five seconds and gas fees are very low it it is for example very suitable for peer-to-peer remittances payments so these are the real use cases we would like to support this at this ethereum conference we announce optics which is um an interoperability network bridges to any other evm compatible chain so we have nearby this location here we have the league of bridges events and a second location if it's too

crowded here which is currently not the case where you can also get a coffee and and where also if you have very technical questions a lot a lot of the cello developers are and you can can ask them also questions on the interoperability so welcome to the mobile first movement but today here i would like to talk about stablecoins i'm an economist and i'm always interested in research on stability on stablecoins and the economics behind so if you're also interested in doing research here's my

telecom handle or my email feel free to reach out we're we're excited about research and and would like to do more of the topic of the talk here today is as i said stable coins and especially the different types of stable coins that are out there out there so for example senor type of stable coins decentralized stable or algorithmic stablecoins and as i said i'm an economist i spent my career before blockchain working in research and in traditional finance so i'm especially interested in for example the risks of the different stable coins that are

out there and would like to talk about them today so i'm also interested in stable coins because after the cello dollar which is a stable coin that is following the value of the dollar um there was a second stable coin that was recently launched on cello which is the cello euro what you can see here on the slide is the cello euro price in u.s dollars in blue so it's basically the exchange rate between cello euro and dollars and in orange you can see the euro dollar exchange rate on the fx market

so it just launched it is pretty new but um in this short history of time it is following the value of the fx exchange rate um and uh it's interesting because they're not too many euro-based stable coins and therefore it's especially interesting to talk about that here in paris um but i want to look at stable coins in a bit broader sense i would like to introduce stable coins in general why they exist and what different classes of stable coins are out there what are the risks of these stable coins and i want to talk a bit about supply and demand since this is especially important for

for example algorithmic stable coins that exist and also happy for any questions you might have um and when entering why stable coins exist um mostly you see that people talk about the volatility of the of other crypto assets out there so what you can see here on this chart is um the bitcoin implied volatility of implied options with different maturities one month three months six months one week and you can see that the volatility of bitcoin for example is between 50 and 250 percent so this is nothing new um that maybe

if you want to do a peer to peer transaction or if you need a currency that should be a store of value then maybe bitcoin or also eth is not your currency of choice since there is a significant volatility in in these assets and this is why then at some point um stablecoin emerged mostly today especially in cryptospace traders use stablecoins to get into a risk-off mode and and reduce their risky holdings in in certain times but the big question is are these stable coins actually stable and um i'm sure that you've heard

stories especially recently about different stable coins that haven't been stable all the time and here on the slide you can see an example of the iron stablecoin um that is actually a signorage type of protocol and the seniority coin that should take up the volatility of the iron stablecoin is the titan token and what you can see here is the price development in june this year so pretty recently and what you can also see here is basically the problem when you have a stable coin but not the use cases for it so it could be that the stable coin and maybe also the seniority token loses in value because there's just no

demand for it and in this case here iron holders got titan token um for for holding iron as a reward and there's a point where this whole titan titan system collapsed where there was just too many titan outstanding but not enough demand so the price of titan decreased very quickly which opened up a lot of arbitrage opportunities for traders out there and at this moment then the iron stable coin collapsed but there are also many other stable coins out there and some of them have been fairly stable and some of them have not and if you look at this chart here you can see there's usdt usdc and two

very popular dollar-based stable coins and there are also others like dye fey iron and also the cello dollar it's nice to see that the cello dollar so far has been stable but we also see that especially when we look a bit further back that also the fiat backed stable token have been pretty volatile at certain times and therefore because stable coins not always have been stable it's for me very interesting as an economist to look into what are the risk factors of the different types of stable coins and to explore why do they d-pack at certain times and what you could also see on the previous slide is that most stable coins

out there are actually dollar based stable coins there are different reasons for this it's also one reason that a lot of trading in crypto is dollar denominated but especially for the large stable coins like usdc or you this usdt there's also another reason and this reason is pretty simple and this is the red line here on this chart which is actually the deposit facility rate or here in this case the effective federal funds rate of the us dollar which is in positive in the positive area so if you are an issuer of a fiat-backed stablecoin and you take in collateral and you put this collateral actually into a bank

you basically earn everything the whole area under this red line because you earn positive interest income on your collateral and there's mostly no interest on your stablecoin and therefore you probably rather issue a dollar-based stablecoin than a euro-based stablecoin because on euro on average interest rates have been negative for uh quite a period now and therefore you would have to pay interest if you would issue a euro-based stablecoin as in a fiat-backed version and therefore we see much more dollar-based stablecoins than euro-based so that was the intro

why are stable coins out there um and uh also why do we see more dollar-based stable coins and also um that yeah some of these stable coins haven't been stable in the past um and to talk about the different risk factors of existing stable coins we need to categorize stable coins in in some way because they all have different risks and as we've seen on the slides quite substantial risk so the bank for international settlements has a very um specific differentiation of different stable coins so they

differentiate by the user interface you can you you have to access these stable coins they also differentiate but by transfer mechanism if it is for example a stable coin that is based on decentralized ledger or it's more a centralized stable coin if it's open source or closed source if it's a public or private stable coin if it's a permissionless or permission stablecoin and they also differentiate by the stability mechanism of the stablecoin and the stability mechanism what they look at is basically who is the issuer is it a decentralized protocol or is it a central bank or is it a centralized entity but they also look at the governance of the overall network

where the stablecoin is based on they look at the entities that interact with the stablecoin they also look at the technology if for example the network that where the stable coin is based on is actually smart contract enabled or not and for me a very important part is on the bottom right of this slide they actually also look at the stability mechanism of the stable coin so looking a bit deeper into the stability mechanism and this is now not from the bank for international settlements anymore this is um a bit how i think about the different types of stable coins you can see that there are fiat big

stable coins there are crypto collateralized stable coins in your share stable coins like this like this titan stable coin i showed you before and there are also algorithmic or hybrid stable coins out there you probably all know the fiat-backed stable coins tether usdc are very prominent examples and in the case of tether you have a protocol that promises you that maybe somewhere there is some collateral for this stablecoin in a bank therefore the governance of the stablecoin depends on that trust in that promise that collateral is actually there it should be in some form regulated because the collateral for the stable

coin is actually bank credit and the most important part is that bank credit has a certain risk namely a counterparty risk depending on the bank that is holding to the collateral depending on how this bank actually manages other things does business stays in business and therefore depending on the the estimation if this bank in future will be able to give back collateral if a lot of people want their collateral back so with these feared backed stable coins the governance is centralized and it's also not

transparent so i don't have the opportunity to audit the bank to see if the collateral is actually there and to estimate if this bank actually would have enough liquidity to give fiat back so fiat-backed stablecoins are very easy to explain because the pack is just based on the collateral in a bank it's based on credit um so people can actually simply understand what a fiat backed stablecoin is but the risk actually is very hard to understand because it's hard to estimate what the risk of the bank is and therefore we saw crypto collateralized stable coins that that came up and crypto collateralized stable coins are decentralized

in terms of governance so for example dye also their seniority collect senorita stablecoins on the slide like terra and also cello all these stable coins are decentralized um there's a a decentralized base layer where they live on and they also more transparent more transparent means in contrast to i have to analyze the credit credit worthiness of the bank and the counterparty risk of the bank in a decentralized stable coin i actually have to verify if the smart contracts um that are governing the stablecoin are

actually doing what they're supposed to do but when it's an open source project or an open source blockchain then it's easier to verify that than to evaluate a bank so in contrast to having a counterparty risk and a liquidity risk that is based on the bank now you have different types of risks for these other types of stable coin now you have for example for the crypto collateralized stable coins you now have a crypto price risk most of these stable coins have a reserve that holds some crypto and this crypto is volatile we've seen this before in the one of the first slides the volatility of bitcoin is between 50 and 250

so now we have a different price risk which depends on crypto but and that's a good thing these decentralized stable coins are more transparent um and i actually can then hold the stablecoin and evaluate if i would or i'm willing to take that risk or not i've also next to dye which is a crypto collateralized stablecoin i added some examples for signuric type of stable coins senorite share stablecoins always have not only a stablecoin but a senioritch token that should take up the volatility of the stablecoin

and basecoin was an early example of this at some point they stopped the base coin development terra is another example and also the titan token fey they're all examples of these synergy type of stable coins now as i said in contrast to the counterparty and liquidity risk you in addition to crypto price risk you now have a risk that is based on the demand and how quick the demand for stablecoin changes and what we've seen with this titan example i had before is

here we had a drastic change in demand and actually demand for stablecoin there was probably none or almost none because there are no reuse cases where you can easily spend stablecoin which could be then a risk for the stablecoin itself so if you want to build a robust stablecoin protocol you also have to build use cases for it a community that would like to use it and a community that has trust in it and therefore that's the nice thing about building open source because then it's also easier to excite the community about your stablecoin but i'll talk a bit more about supply and demand

in a second i since we are in paris i also want to briefly mention that here in europe we will see a regulation in the markets in crypto assets that is actually what mika stands for markets in crypto asset regulation this is a regulation that is currently in voting stage by the uh european commission and the interesting thing is that the european commission is also talking about exactly that what i just talked about is that for example feared backed stable coins the the major risk is based on the credit credit worthiness of the bank so the european commission would for

example say if a person in europe holds a fiat-backed stable coin then they have to understand what the risk behind the stable coin is depending on the risk of that bank and as a regulator they would say then maybe we should regulate this bank so now here in this room we can then all guess if mika comes by the end of the year and the european commission then to allow for example usdt in europe we can take a guess if the tether project would allow the european commission to regulate the bank that holds the collateral maybe yes maybe not let's see but if not

then the european commission would then probably regulate those venues that offer that stable coin exchanges custodians kashin cash art solutions they would regulate it differently because people have to understand that there's a certain risk but it's always tough how the regulation actually turns out and will look in the end the good thing is that the european commission understands the difference between decentralized stable coins and fiat backed stable coins and therefore also will treat it differently i think that is a very good news for for the overall industry um and i'm not a lawyer therefore i should stop

talking about uh regulation so i i started to talk about algorithmic stablecoins and i also started to talk about supply of stablecoin and demand for it because supply and demand was actually a problem in that titan example and supply and demand actually is a very easy story in economics so supply and demand meet at the price and this this price then holes on on this market so if you look here on this slide for example at the intersection of this blue line and the screen line it actually meets exactly at one and what you can see here is for example a

stable coin supply of 20 million um and a stable coin demand of 20 million people have demand for 20 million in in stable coin to do transactions and if this supply and demand meet at this point the price of stablecoin in this in this instance is actually one now what could also happen is that we have this um have this don't have this supply of 20 million we only have a supply of 19 million but still have demand for 20 million of stablecoin so it could be that if there's less supply or more demand that the price is just higher than one

um and we saw this on the slide before where stable coins depect also in positive terrain where just there was more demand for stablecoin than then there was supply and now the price of the stable coin in this example then depends on how steep this curve this blue curve actually is which is the demand function so it could be that it is very very steep and if the supply is 19 million instead of 20 million then the price goes from one to two or it could be is not so steep and it goes from one to one ten like in the example here but the major thing about this curve is that it is very hard to estimate how

this curve actually looks like it's almost impossible if you would like to do that to estimate how this curve looks you would have to do an assumption or an estimate on the demand function and only when you can do that then you can guess or estimate what the right supply in each second or in each instance is but it as i said it is hard to do and this is probably also one of the reasons why base coins stopped the development on on on base coin itself because they found out that is almost impossible to estimate how this function should look like so it's if it's hard to estimate this function then it's also hard to estimate the amount of stable coin

you would have to issue or buy back once your stable coin deviates from the pack so if basecoin would trade at 0.9 or if basecoin would trade at 1.1 you would have to estimate how this function looks and then you could estimate the amount you have to auction off or buy back to bring the price back but this is almost impossible and therefore hard to solve and even more difficult because demand is actually changing every instance every second so it's not only changing between one auction and the next auction and auctions could take time

or it's not only changing until someone locks up collateral to mint new stable coins demand is constantly changing and therefore price can constantly deviating from from one and because of this constant change um it is hard again it's not only hard to estimate how steep this curve is this demand function it's also hard to to do that because you actually would have to do that constantly and this slide just shows like simulated demand for a stable coin which is taken out of a stability analysis that you can also find on the cello webpage where you simulated these market behaviors and actually looked like how

stable coins react to different market behavior so when designing cello we went a different way we also agreed with the community that it's impossible to estimate how this demand function looks like but we also think that since supply and demand or demand for stablecoin is constantly changing that the only way um how to solve this um in a uh in a way that is uh keeping the price stable and also sustainable in future it has to be in some form market based and therefore on sello you find a

on-chain mechanism that is called mento like mint in esperanto and this mento allows you to constantly exchange stable coin for the governance asset so you can constantly exchange one seller dollar for one us dollar worth of cello and cello is the the governance asset on on the blockchain and you can also constantly exchange one cellular euro for one euro worth of this governance asset which means if at a centralized exchange at a certain instance in time the price would deviate from one for example you could buy a stablecoin for 95 cents for example then you could buy it as long as you get

it for 95 cents and then go to this on-chain mechanism and sell it and what you get there you can immediately trade at the exchange and you have this closed arbitrage loop and therefore it's a different way you basically get rid of these auctions because as i said these auctions take time and these auctions the amount you have to auction off is hard to estimate and therefore you have something that that constantly works um we did a lot of research on on this mechanism and on different mechanisms and um if you would like to look at different types of stable coins and estimate their risk

you can do empirical or theoretical studies which is always nice but maybe these theoretical studies don't show you the real life risks for example when looking at a fiat-backed stablecoin that depends again on the credit worthiness of of the bank you could also do scenario analysis versus forecasting forecasting can be very hard and also historical analysis can be very hard because you don't have a lot of data in in these markets many stable coins are just around for a year or so and therefore finding historical data to properly analyze how it behaves in different market environments can be very very hard and therefore you could for

example do simulations for simulations you would need to generate scenarios and the scenarios i showed you a few slides back these ones here they are based on a certain certain stochastic process and when you look at different stochastic processes then you need to basically also look at the distribution of these stochastic processes are crypto assets normal distributed or they may be heavy-tailed because they are extreme in in some times and what we did is basically we used different scenario generators we used

geometric bound in motion onscreen ultimate process which are just different stochastic processes then we included jumps because the market in crypto sometimes is extreme and what we are currently adding is also if you do that in a scenario analysis you always assume that the market is very rational it can be rationally to exaggerate at some point and can be rationally to to like have seeing a demand that goes down to zero but it's some how always assumes for example a certain um distribution also so what we are adding now is you should also simulate um for example attacks on the network because this is what we saw what we've

seen uh in the past very often that there are coordinated attacks on these type of networks and therefore you should also simulate these these attacks and this is some research we are now kicking off we will open source also this research and as i said before we're always interested in research so if you also like to do these type of research feel free to reach out we would be happy to to include all the also other designs in the research currently we of course focus on the cello design but it would be interesting to learn also more about other for example algorithmic stable coins if you use for example a geometric

brownian motion it is nice because it can generate you a lot of different scenarios so you if you want to forecast something for example the demand of tomorrow you just don't have to guess a certain demand at the next day you can use this stochastic process to to simulate it and you can actually do this one hundred thousand one million ten million times and therefore look at many different scenarios you would like to simulate the problem then with the um geometric brownian motion is if you assume a certain mean and a certain standard deviation then what we for example what you can see on the right here we assumed a mean of 0.5 and a standard deviation of 0.75

because there are a few paths that go up extreme a lot of the paths have to go into a different way to make up so for example no the graph on the left where we have a mean of zero because there are a few paths that go to infinity you have to have a lot of paths that go to zero to be on average at zero and this can make your simulation uh or influence the results of your simulation then you can try out other processes like for example the geometric orange denunenbek process which um not only looks at the distribution at the end but basically has some mean reverting um parameter in it

um so that basically you can get your paths back to a mean and you don't get two extreme results so if you look at these simulations and this is maybe the the baseline of of that story here and if you want to do simulations it heavily depends on what type of scenario generator you use because the type of scenario generator you use influences the results you get significantly and if you then would like to analyze results it always makes sense then for example to look at percentiles of the worst and the best paths in your in your simulation to actually see if um that happened what you what you

actually wanted to happen that your stable coin is stable at one but it's maybe when you use 10 million scenarios or more it's maybe tough to to look at each scenario therefore looking at the percentiles and then evaluating them makes a lot of sense and this is basically where this old paper ends and where we now kick off research what we now would like to do is now introduce these attacks into this simulation so that you can actually see now we have how the system behaves on average over 10 million paths but in a few instances

we have a attack on the overall system and then we would like to learn how the system copes with it so i said this before we really like to do research on stable coins we like to do research um based on uh the different stable coin designs out there based on the risk factors that drive the drive stable coins um and um based on for example scenarios to analyze stable coins i since we have a small crowd i went through the slides uh pretty quick and i just got the sign i have a few minutes left

so do you have 10 minutes left nice so do you have questions something we should chat about let's start in the front oh okay let's start there hi thanks for the presentation um so i have a question for your like stability mechanism i mean it's kind of a standard but like if you have a problem or a bank run then it seems that it gets broken right because let's say people will get regret of first by you know whatever reason of uh dollar then you'll sell it for the cello at some point the total will get more cheaper and cheaper and cheaper

because there will be like more of the challenge the market yes so it's basically there's a limited amount of cello in general and there's an unlimited amount of stable token and of course as i said in the beginning the the risk now with a system like that is not a counterparty risk anymore but the risk is now similar to other um stable coins out there that are based on an algorithm and a reserve is based on the crypto volatility in the market the reserve that is underpinning this expansion and contraction mechanism is made up of the governance token cello but it also contains bitcoin ethereum

die in future also other assets so that it not is fully dependent on the price risk right but so all of them are very volatile all of them are volatile and therefore the reserves that is backed by i don't know like now 40 of the volatile assets true yeah die is also volatile that is true and um the the the thing is therefore because you have that crypto risk you have to start with an over collateralization we've seen this with other partially collateralized systems like titan or fae they break because they are not over collateralized but based on crypto and copter as price risk so the reserve started out at an over collateralization of 20.

currently after the market now came down the over collateralization is around seven or eight times the outstanding stablecoin but you need other mechanisms that bolster the reserve so for example if the reserve of this stablecoin design would approach two then a larger part of block rewards would be deviated to the reserve so that the reserve is constantly bolstered then there's a second mechanism that in this on-chain mechanism where you can always exchange cellular dollar for cello or cellular euro for cello there's a spread and this spread also bolsters this reserve the the allocation of the reserve and also the spread

are all governable parameters so the community can vote on these parameters how they should look like and the idea of the reserve in general is that we would like to add in future more asset classes to the reserve that basically the crypto price risk is not the highest risk in that reserve so currently there's a governance proposal by the community to also add tokenized carbon credit to the reserve because it's very not related to the crypto market but carbon credit is maybe a nice asset to have because it sets off carbon emissions and is still a liquid asset class

and this is just a start because in the end the idea and you can find this in the initial white paper of cello was always that it would be nice to see currencies in future that are backed by something we won't like to see more of so for example when fiat currencies are backed by gold people a lot of people started to mint gold because it's like printing money therefore it would be nice in a ecosystem like this to see fiat or to see currencies backed by for example forest because then planting more forest and having tokenized forest in the reserve is then something people would do more often we would see more of and therefore would be

good for the environment so yeah you're fully right a system like this depends on the volatility of the crypto market there are some mechanisms in place that support the reserve but in future we really would need to see more and different assets in that reserve and here also this initiative of the league of bridges that's the league of purchases building bridges between all evm compatible chains and cello already helps because now you can have like all these different assets also in the reserve that live on these other blockchains yeah thanks i like the idea about like backing um

i mean having um fundamental values like environment values that's a collateral very quickly second question um so could you comment on the senior rich like base stable coins and what you're thinking about it are you planning to do something with it at cello or not so cello as a governance asset the cellular native asset since you can always exchange cellular dollar for sello and cellular euro for cello is part of a synergy token since it's part of the reserve and it takes up the volatility of the stable coin but cello has also other assets in the reserve which is important because of that price

risk we've seen signorage protocols fail because they only depend on the on the price of the senior h token and therefore in the end if a system survives or not is based on is there really demand for the stable token this is especially important for the seniority type protocols because in fiat backed protocols if the collateral would actually be there if the bank would actually be safe and credit risk would be low and liquidity risk would be low even if there's no demand for the stable token you still have the collateral and can get the collateral back in the seniority type protocol if there's no

more demand for this it could we could see um this the overall system fail and we've seen this and therefore i think a large focus of the sello project is to generate real use cases where people actually would like to use to sell or stable coins for transactions from remittances so that we see real demand for it and i think in terms of uh creating these use cases it's very important to have a stablecoin that is easy to use so for example on cello transactions are fast the block time of the proof-of-stake blockchain five seconds so if i send a a stable coin to you it arrives within five seconds

gas fees are very low but the nice thing and a very important thing is if i send you sello dollar i can also pay in gas for sell a dollar if i send so use cellular euro i also can pay in gas with seller euro because for non-crypto natives it's a very difficult concept that you send a stable coin but then you have to pay for gas in a different currency and this different currency is volatile and the amount of gas is as well and therefore having this already makes it easier and therefore helps with real use cases um of these stable coins thanks sure thank you thank you so i have a question about

um calibration of your model like do you have any insights did you have like a specific method of choosing the parameters of your formulas like or was it more trial and error yes um there's a great question because this is actually the reason why we started off this stability research this paper we've we've written so basically we built out the the smart contracts the blockchain everything but at the same time we duplicated everything in a simulation environment so in that case it was the blockchain and the smart contracts are built in solidity and the duplication then in python because python we used for simulating a lot of things and working

on the simulation we we learned about these parameters and could actually make a lot of sensitivity analysis of what parameter actually helps for stability in many different scenarios and i think in future since all of these parameters are governable this this simulation becomes super important because in the end you would like to have a educated community that can make the right decisions in governance when for example these parameters are up for forward i think one part of the stability mechanism that it is market-based and based on arbitrage is super important because as i said demand changes

constantly and therefore expansions and contractions in the system can also happen constantly but other parameters like for example at what point maybe a higher percentage of block rewards should go to the reserve to to bolster the reserve these parameters are governable and can change and therefore having this analysis and constantly expanding this analysis also now adding this agent-based simulation to the analysis where we have agents attack the system is super important for finding these parameters thank you sure you also had a question right yeah thank you for the talk and the

answer to this question so my question was already answered there but i have a follow-up question so is there a tendency that the stable coin market evolves towards uh like a winner takes all model because you say it's mostly dependent on on the demand on a stable coin but i as a user of a stable coin i'm mostly interested in maybe like the history of the corn and trust working trustworthiness of it um so wouldn't i go for like the most popular one and in that in that scenario so what's what are determining factors of how stablecoin can remain a success great question i think one part of it um i partly talked about this is how easy it is to use the stablecoin

so if you're non-crypto native and would like to do a transaction and have only an android phone and you don't have a coinbase account then maybe you're a user that would like to use a mobile wallet um and since you're non-crypto native it's important for you that you are able to pay for transaction fees in the same currency this is something we look at a lot um when when working on cello make it very easy to use another part of that is there's a interface how you can identify other users of on the cellular blockchain a hash of the phone number is linked to the public

key of a wallet so if i just know the phone number i can send you a stable coin i can send you a cello euro and if you have a wallet already it arrives in five seconds and you have disabled coin and i can pay back you can pay you back for coffee if you don't have a wallet you get a text message saying you should get a wallet to to unlock the stable coin so that is it's making it easy to use but on the other hand there are this like crypto natives that maybe care not so much about the ease of use but care a lot about liquidity and there are of course super liquid stable coins out there for example tether has huge amounts of liquidity

and maybe for you it's more important that you can transfer 10 million tether or 100 million tether very quickly because you want to do a large transactions across border and therefore liquidity for you is most important and i here i see in the longer run also liquidity in the stablecoin world is an important factor but maybe also changes so there are other factors like for example regulation will it be allowed in future to have a fiat backed stablecoin that is backed by a bank credit where the bank is not regulated i don't know probably in many countries of the world it's not allowed to use them so then you have to find an alternative so i would say it's ease of use and

and also how how fast you can do transactions so i think for us this five second block time is very um very important you can yeah stable coin payments settle within five seconds and they are less than a basis point in fees so if i send you a sello dollar seller euro i pay less than a cent in in gas and it comes it arrives in five seconds i think this is very important for end users and gas i think this is also something where all the blockchains now have to look at because if the if you want to cater peer-to-peer transactions then gas fees shouldn't be higher than the transaction

itself but if you're a institutional player and would like to send around 100 200 million for you maybe only liquidity is important so these these factors are there any other questions if not thanks for spending time with me at this wonderful day in paris um have a great day and feel free to reach out if you have any questions and always feel free to come by the cross chain salon it's a three minute walk from here and all these league of bridges projects are there and talk about

interoperability so if this is of interest feel free to stop by thanks um