Luca Netz on the Pudgy Penguin Airdrop | Roundup

Transcript

the elephant in the room is a $75,000 pudgy penguin right is two priced out of the average retail buyer to participate and a whale who actually believes in the message and everything that we're doing for crypto in terms of pushing it forward from a narrative perspective from a development perspective can't go put $30 million on her floor because they'll get crushed on the slippage on the way up and they'll get crushed on the slippage on the way down everybody wants to be a part of this everybody wants to align with it but there's really no vehicle in which they can do it and penu opens the door for every body who loves the community for everybody who loves the character and the IP and what we're doing for the space to align themselves and say hey we want to support that scale is the blockchain that is Simply Built

different other L1 networks have costly transaction fees clunky user experiences and lack true adoption in Ai and onchain gaming explore the gas-free ecosystem at scale dospace ecosystem and follow their Journey on X scale Network that is scale with a hit the link in the show notes to get started hey everyone Jason here wanted to talk about something that's been on my mind a lot recently if we should not be just recreating the trafi industry that's why I'm excited to share with you that today's sponsor magic Eden is getting into token trading and their vision is to become onchain binance and then much more as the entire world moves

on chain stay up to date with magic Eden's journey by giving them a follow on X at Magic Eden tired of losing track of all your tokens Unis swap wallet is designed to easily manage store and swap your crypto all in one place access thousands of tokens across ethereum and more than 10 other chains instantly by using Unis swaps wallet today download it today it's available on Chrome IOS and Android hit the link in today's show notes to get started hey everyone Jason here you've heard me talk about today's sponsor mantle a lot this year I wanted to just take a quick second to really highlight them with over $1.6 billion in total value locked in a massive $2 billion

treasury mantle has become one of the fastest growing networks in crypto through groundbreaking protocols and strategic Partnerships mantle is really transforming what is possible in defi to stay up toate with what's going on in the mantle ecosystem give them a follow on X at ZX mantle hey everyone Jason here our friends over at Ledger are running some great holiday deals upgrade to their latest product The Ledger Flex while earning $70 in Bitcoin offers valid until December 23rd or while supplies last so be sure to hit the link in the description of today's episode so you don't miss out on this really good deal all right everyone we got the man

of the week Luca Nets with us uh big big air drop this week successful week um on all measures I would say so Luca welcome to the show man excited to be here once again yeah you sleeping much these days uh haven't been but I'm planning to get some good shy here in a couple days I'm gonna do the 23rd to the first break I think we all need it just sleep for like eight days straight yeah how how uh how was it man give us I mean let's let's jump into the good stuff like we just you're coming off this big airdrop wanted to have you want to talk about the airdrop the whole business pangu Pudgies the rod little Pudgies abstract everything but I mean give us the like behind the scenes of this airdrop how

did it go in your mind uh I'd probably put it like at a seven seven and a half out of 10 there was a little bit of technical issues on the claim I think uh you know I I don't know how familiar you are but I think we were responsible for salana all-time highs and daily transactions uh salana all-time highs in transactions per second uh and uh I think uh we we pushed the limits of some of the rpcs so that was exciting uh over 20 million hits on the claim website so it was a it was a claim both for you know people on evm and svm um so obviously nothing we've ever done before so a lot of learnings to say the least but excited that we uh came out of it relatively unscathed obviously a couple

hiccups here and there but you know excited to finally get this show on the road you know I'm a I'm a firm believer in what we've got over here in this community and this IP and this character uh which we'll probably get into in a sec but uh you know I think I think the the hardest most unfamiliar part for us is is is done now it's just a matter of how can we proliferate the penguin how many barriers can we push how many boundaries can we break and do what we know how to do best which we've been doing for the last couple of years so now we're back into a very familiar pocket gonna probably have to take a rest here into the holidays uh but I'm super excited I mean the Huddle has grown uh you know by many millions of people and I think that was really the

intent uh of doing this and uh now we just have to do what we do best yeah give us give us the numbers on the airdrop like how many how many people hit the site how many claims yeah like 20 Milli million people hit the site I think there's 9 like 880,000 claims almost a million claims that went through probably the biggest claim of all time uh from an individual perspective so that's pretty exciting and cool uh and uh I think today we have 500,000 onchain holders assuming the Sexes are in the millions I'd probably assume just figuring how big those holder bases are and how many users on those platforms and that's the metric that I think matters the most to us you know ultimately I think what we've been able to accomplish over the last couple of

years uh is pretty impressive but a lot of that credit goes to the 10,000 you know holders who are in our Corner that have been championing and galvanizing and rallying around this you know Common objective you know through this vehicle and through them being aligned and so uh now I think we've got a unique opportunity to you know take a couple million people who have that alignment and and you know leverage that that superpower of tokenization uh to do even more amazing and awesome things yeah why why did you guys position can you tell us like the backstory of pangu like why did you guys position it as a meme coin instead of I think people will remember what apoin did with like positioning it more as a utility thing why position it

as a as a meme actually I've got a bunch of questions but let's start start with that one yeah I think from our perspective there's a there's a prophecy in play with with the penu and the pudy penguin one long before my time if I'm being frank and there's always been this you know if you're familiar with the pudgy penguin story you know you'd only know if you were there but I think a lot of the mimetic culture that you see today was really pioneered by that early 2021 you know pudy penguin run it was like the first time that like true genuine mimetic you know permeation kind of happened through a a Crypton native vehicle that I thought was super authentic and it's really core to the roots of pudgy Penguins now you know if I'm being honest you know I'm not directly referencing it as a as a meeme

coin I I'm really calling it just a penu coin and I'm leaving it up for everyone's imagination to interpret what they think it is the reason being is because I think you know on one side of the spectrum the actual technicality and the vehicle and how the coin actually exists is very memetic right it's a character coin you know Big Supply to the holders for the People by the people a lot of the technical principles of a meme coin Reign true uh with penu but the interesting part about it and really the how we want to develop that specific category is it's really like a memec coin plus plus right because you know I'm gonna put all these blue penguins in Walmart and Target you know I'm gonna put them on the big screen on your favorite streaming service you know we're going to put it in games and all

over the world and I and I've always imagined this world where it was like you know one of the thesises when we bought it I kind of went through this you know a little bit of a of a days one day which was you know what if Doge had you know an OP you know oper some some operational force behind it right and it was doing movies and it was doing TV and it was doing games I would argue that it' be exponentially bigger than it is today and the and the thought process behind that is simple right like what do these things do what do products and stores do what do movies and content and social what do all of these things do they do two things they create demand and they create love and Affinity right demand is pretty straightforward the more people that see the character the

more people that engage with it the more people that want to align and love and Affinity is really predicated around holding right if you you know have some penu or a pudgy penguin and it's in a movie or in your favorite retailer or you're digesting the content on social you're more likely to develop an emotional connection between the products so you're you're more open to holding it over the course of the long term and so you know our thought process here is like look memes memes today are very stagnant I would argue that half of them aren't really memes right they're just really kind of cloaked under this guise of a mimetic coin and the other side of it is like some of them are memes but you know why why why just stop there right that just seems so counterintuitive to just how I think

maybe I'm alone and on an island here but you know I think this category has huge potential i' AR i' I'd argue that I think the Tam in terms of like growth from today to where I think it could be three four five years from now I think is probably one of the biggest categories in crypto in terms of growth potential the problem is is like people people have just started and stopped with the meme but you know Meme memes are suppos me memes at their core make you feel good they make you happy they make you smile and there's other ways to kind of take that mimetic emotion and to proliferate that and to drive that further right you can drive that further via content you can drive that further via VIA products and so why does a meme start and stop with a singular image and

a token and that's all it becomes right I think there's actually a really interesting opportunity here to develop them into something that I'm referencing as a cultural phenomenon I think the highest upside for these tokens is for them to become cultural phenomenons and so far we've only seen that twice in crypto Doge was a cultural phenomenon and give credit where credit was due board Apes were cultural phenomenons right and I think if you look at this cycle and you look at the scoreboard and you look at the the line items here there's there's only one thing that's positioned to be a cultural phenomenon in this cycle and it's us right like if anything's gonna be it it's either we do it or Nobody Does it but nobody has the lore the history the time the energy the the actual mimetic distribution I mean

50 billion views on socials millions of toys and millions of homes across the world right nobody has the ingredients that we have that actually can turn it into a cultural phenomenon now to be frank it's going to take a herculan effort from the penu holders from the pudgy penguin nft holders from the team it's going to require a little bit of universal alignment a little bit of luck don't get me wrong there's a lot of variables that actually make something become a cultural phenomenon but the ingredients here are so special and nothing here is positioned for that and probably the last and final point to I think where this can become is don't underestimate the universal appeal of the penu I don't think we've ever seen something like this in crypto that speaks to so many different demographics and psychographics I mean there isn't a

personality profile that doesn't resonate or understand what this is right whether you're a 5-year-old or a 60-year-old or whether you're in Asia or in America or a man or a woman right everyone can understand the penu and that's a little bit different than I think the Apes I always thought one of the handicaps around the Apes was it really like leaned into the Bro culture right and it was really a thing for the boys to be like I'm I'm dope you dope you're dope right this is a little this is a lot a lot a lot more interesting I think in the sense that the the potential here I think is bigger because of that Universal alignment because of that Universal appeal and we're in a bull market right I think a bull market is dominated by the right curve and I don't think you can find something

further on the right curve than pudgy Penguins everybody understands it you can go to your grandma she'll understand it you can go to your mom and your dad she'll understand it you can go to your niece your nephew your girlfriend your significant other whatever that looks looks like they all understand it it's super easily digesti people can resonate with it and it's for those reasons that I think we're perfectly positioned to become a cultural phenomenon and this was really the final step for for us to actually go on that Sprint and to to see if we can realize that potential I definitely agree with you uh I mean the counter argument of all that is that memes are pristine and you shouldn't like tamper with as soon as you start doing you know operate to your point like trying to do other stuff Beyond just the picture it's sort of like you

could look at fcoin and people rally behind fcoin it's at a billion and and you know you could either look at that and say like just leave it at that and that's what memes historically been successful like Doge hasn't pretended to be anything other than um you know Bitcoin is the ultimate meme right doesn't do anything other than um you just you harden like Austrian economics kind of style um you you mentioned Bard Apes I think that's like a pretty interesting comp here because they so far haven't really executed on the apoin and all that and I hear you on I actually don't like they're not aesthetically pleasing I love your Penguins they are the Tam is bigger You could argue but how do you think about like walk us into the maybe the the

decision to launch the coin to kind of take on this Herculean effort there is some downside there is you know you probably were looking at apoin and saying gosh you know that definitely didn't work for them like what was the like did you ever doubt or you know want to do this or walk us through kind of the decision- making process to to go ahead with with it yeah I kind of want to address your rebuttal and then I'll answer that I think you know from my perspective you know I totally agree but just because something is you know what it is doesn't mean you know it can't be something more and and something some it doesn't mean it can't evolve I mean human nature is predicated around Evolution right and you have something that you know like the the one thing that I catch the crypto industry is like

in this Perpetual scop because something was doesn't mean it can't be something more and I think from my perspective just logically running the the reason behind it is the the greatest things in in in in Civilization that we've seen over the last you know thousand years or 2,000 years has been predicated around execution and pushing the boundary and Breaking the Barrier right it just goes there and I think that it would be a disservice for crypto and specifically this category if somebody didn't try to push that barrier and break that boundary you know at a certain point you know you you look at it through one lens which you know I totally agree with you Santi like that is a lens in which a majority of people look at it I always like to take the contrarian approach and

so far I've been right right like I've been I've been keeping this attitude the same energy for the last couple of years I've been running the same thought process and the same logical reasoning and it's the same thought process that's gotten us up until this point and I think it's the same thought process is going to get us further right so you know I I do agree that like hey today you know memes are not sentient they're stagnant and that is you know a part of the beauty but I actually think there's a more beautiful story to be told one that I think galvanizes more people and does more for the net positive and the net good of crypto and I think this is the lane that I'm willing to experiment in and see if we can and see if we can actually get there in terms of like the

decision- Making It ultimately came down to a point there's a couple variables one you know we were the bare Market we were we were the bare Market Heroes right and there's a Playbook to be that the interesting part of the last couple of months is I felt like a fish out of water and I think in a bare Market you know overthinking and being conservative is the right approach in a bull market your job as a Founder specifically in my business right I'm in the entertainment business really right I'm in the nft pfp proliferation cultural phenomenon world domination business and you're either going to get there or you're not right there's there's no different it's one side of the pendulum or the other in my opinion right and so for me I was optimizing for maximum excitement and

maximum alignment right like we have done this a certain way right like we the launch here was completely unorthodox to I think anything you've seen in this category in the sense that you know we're we're a 70% liquid float today right we could have easily been a 25% liquid float and the price could be higher right I know that but you know the beautiful part is I have 500,000 onchain holders and millions of other holders on Sexes and a part of that movement a a part of that cultural force is really predicated on how many people are aligned so maybe for the short term term you know it's not prob you know maybe for the the next couple of weeks you know while the non-believers you know leave the ecosystem and and take the opportunity that we gave them and you know move on to the next you know

that's their prerogative but ultimately I think as those people get out and the believer start to set in I think it's the perfect perfect recipe for success I look at the memes on the scoreboard and right now pudgy Penguins is the seventh or eighth biggest meme in the world but I look at our views I look at our community I look at our our our our base and all the things that we have and I think to myself there's not three better mimic characters than this there's not three more popular beloved Crypton native characters in crypto than pudgy Penguins penu it's impossible to refute the data supports that right we're clocking in 2300 million views every single day on social right we are proliferating and embodying a message

that I think is the best of crypto there is an Underdog Story here I think the greatest Underdog Story that crypto's ever seen literally a penguin rising from the ashes Against All Odds right when you look at the entrepreneurship story dollars in the bank I don't think there's a crypto company that has created more value to the ecosystem per cash in the bank meaning we've only raised $9 million we put $500,000 of our own money into this we've created four five billion dollars in value for the ecosystem and the entire crypto ecosystem as a whole right when I just look at our performance next to the bunch I just refuse to believe that when this cycle is all said and done that a Sheba enu is going to have more weight and more pull than Audy penguins and pangu I just can't believe that because

the data and the metrics I think support it and so you know why did we do this you know I think It ultimately comes down to the ultimate handicap that I think nfts exist so just so you know I think I'm one of the bigger nft Bulls out there I think nfts have a slew of Pros that these type of tokens don't and I think these type of tokens have a slew of Pros that nfts don't I think the most prominent Pro that one that these type of tokens have is ultimately the barrier to entry the elephant in the room is a $75,000 pudgy penguin right is two priced out of the average retail buyer to participate and a whale who actually believes in the message and everything that we're doing for crypto in terms of pushing it forward from a narrative perspective from a development

perspective can't go put $30 million doar on our floor because they'll get crushed on the slippage on the way up and they'll get crushed on the slippage on the way down right and so naturally everybody loves pudgy Penguins everybody supported us you know we go make a an animation on Instagram we'll get 50 million views 100 million views we'll go do K penu on Tik Tok and we'll clock you know 500 million views and 10 videos everybody wants to be a part of this everybody wants to align with it but there's really no vehicle in which they can do it and penu opens the door for everybody who loves the community for everybody who loves the character and the IP and what we're doing for the space to align themselves and say hey we want to support that we want to be a part of that and now I can put a dollar

into it I can put a $100,000 into it I can put $50 million into it and I ultimately came to a an inflection point a couple months ago is like how much more can we do you know in this Lane without getting like the respect and the momentum that we deserve you know ultimately at one point you know we were down 5% when we announced Walmart right like that wouldn't happen necessarily if you were a token right like it would just be priced differently and so you know I have to give my community that opportunity to actually realize the upside that not only the team is creating But ultimately that they're creating every single day when they're going and buying products and sharing the cont Etc so I think when you add up all those pieces this has to be the next step and my last Point Santi is if you

look at the data for the last 12 months the data for the last 12 months tells you something really interesting it tells you that if you're an nft pfp outside of Crypt punks you are not going to be able to outperform you know these token nft combinations because naturally what are memes in the business of doing Above All Else they're in the business of proliferating proliferating the meme right we have 10,000 15,000 people every day wearing profile pictures that are proliferating the penguin every day you know we have gifts and content that are getting hundreds of millions of views and ultimately there'll be an inflection point and there'll be a convergence where everyone will just accept this reality and I think uh and and I think that that that inflection point and that

acceptance will ultimately lead penu to I think being a top three in its category pretty easily pretty quickly what do you think about the U like what's a simple skinny on the value rule for the token like is this like if I I appreciate you did a round like an equity raise for you know the entity the development code behind all of this is it safe to say that like you know value acral as I think about like this could be the next Disney Studios Pixar in a grandio vision like is is that represented in the token or how do you like how do you articulate that value cruel to people yeah I I think you you have to believe that pudgy Penguins is going to be the face of crypto and the mascot of crypto and it has ingredients

that none of these other mimic coins have with maybe the exception of Doge and so what makes Sheba enu valuable what makes dog with hat valuable what makes all of these other ones valuable I think is going to make the same thing that that is going to make pangu valuable except again there's a plus plus to it right and there's variables here in the equation that I think none of those other things have that I think ultimately are going to create more demand more love and affinity and put us in a position that I think uh very few of these other tokens are going to be able to be in LCA what um how do you think about the trade-off between dilution and opening up more access right because you had you had Pudgies then you had Lil Pudgies then you had pudgy rods now

you've got pangu how do you think about that obviously I mean we saw it with our perm collection it was like we were really excited about it there's but there was you know there's only so many you can actually have right so then you need to keep opening up access but then that dilutes the original people so how do you think about that trade-off yeah I actually think it's the the complete opposite in this case I think issuing more of the same is dilution right and so since I've been a part of pudgy we've issued new no new nfts we have no plan to issue no new nfts right but I would argue that you know a million penu holders is going to create more demand for the nft than uh not having a million penu holders because a pfpn at its core is a form of tribalism to signify that

you're a part of the community and second and probably more importantly it's a VIN good and it's a status symbol what's a status symbol for people who don't recognize it it's a status symbol a status symbol is only as relevant as people recognizing it as such and penu holders who buy the token recognize that people with the pfp are of huge status within this community right so it's a really simple formula to me in my opinion which is you know more holders creates more demand for the first edition for the ultimate status symbol and it's really impossible to convince me otherwise and again right we we have 2020 22 PTSD because we believe you know what happened then but what happened then is not what's happening now right

there's a new formula there's a new framing there's a new positioning and everything at the end of the day comes down to framing positioning and narrative and the narrative here is pudgy Penguins is the face of crypto it's the mascot of crypto it's doing something for the industry that nobody else is doing it's Universal it's inclusive everybody loves it and if anything is going to represent the crypto industry from a character and nascot perspective I would be remissed if you thought that there was a better IP and a better character than pudy Penguins pangu it just is right all the pieces together so that's how I kind of look at it uh ultimately I really want people to kind of Envision it from you know I want I want people to to have their imagination run wild in terms of what they think this could be uh and

what the potential is for it and obviously you know we're going to do what we're going to continue to do right we're going to continue to put this thing in places that crypto native IP has never been we're going to continue to make headlines we're continue to make you know break barriers and push boundaries we're going to continue to have the most affluent and I think one of the most important communities in crypto I think you'd be hardpressed to say that there's three communities more powerful and more important than the pudgy penguin Community today and I think if you just line those all those things up I feel like Michael sailor talking but it just seems pretty obvious so we'll see but uh but uh you know obviously you know you history or the the future has yet to be written and it's up to us to write it yeah um let's

talk about salana for a second um you guys are building I've heard you talk about why you're building abstract and I think abstract came via an acquisition um where you were looking at other l2s you said look ZK sync's got you know account abstraction and Bas has low fees but no nobody's really built the consumer chain so you guys acquired abstract you're building this L2 but you guys didn't decide to launch on abstract because obviously it's not live yet I think that goes live in January I'm pretty sure I heard um why did you guys choose to launch on salana in December when you could have just launched on abstract in January and did a massive user acquisition thing for the chain yeah it's that was the plan right and that was always the intent I think for the last couple of months now the plan

didn't really go into execution until November 7th and then the elephant so you guys you guys decided to do pangu November 7 obviously you were thinking about this before but November 7th was like we are doing it yeah the whole November 7th so it was a five-week Sprint a herculan Sprint to say the least so shout out to all the partners and all the people involved but you know the consensus was it was timing and I just was giving myself reasons to overthink it right and I think from our perspective if you look at it today salana is the consumer chain for crypto it's almost impossible to refute no matter if you're an ethereum maxi you know a majority of the retail volume today is on salana and to be frank I needed to speak to that community in a

way that I think I haven't been able to speak up until this point and it just makes a ton of sense I think for us you know pudgy Penguins doesn't want to be the face of ethereum we want to be the face of crypto right and so we're chain agnostic and I actually think this is one of the most beautiful unification moments I've ever seen in crypto right have we ever really seen something where everyone was so unified one around one common goal and sure there was a couple eth Maxis that were upset but if I'm being honest you know I think this is ultimately a net positive for not only ethereum but more importantly abstract because the truth of the matter is is you have this ecosystem that's now winning on ethereum and now winning on salana or has been winning on ethereum and is now winning on salana and it's

all going to converge on an ethereum L2 right and so don't overthink it timing is important in crypto we all know it right it's all about catching the wind I hate that Jerome was hawkish Jesus but you know other than that right I think the timing is impeccable and ultimately I think it's going to play into our hand and naturally right you know pudgy Penguins is not abstract for a reason right it's not pudgy chain if we're going to call it pudgy chain we were going to call it pudgy chain But ultimately abstract is going to win because we have an org that is exemplifying operational excellence because we have a thesis that I think is unparalleled and we have a strategy to get Builders and to get the ecosystem pmf in a way that I think no other chain does and the beauty is is there will be

a bridge from penu to abstract and penu will live on abstract and there will be a slew of benefits for penu on abstract right and so you know a lot of people you know wanted me to to to wait and and obviously there was a lot of uncomfortable conversations that had to be had and I just knew in my gut that the best thing for abstract is to put a huge win under the pudgy Penguins ecosystem right before that launch to really Galvanize the community I'm being honest with you and I it's not something I really wanted to talk about but the truth of the matter is is I know our ecosystem better than anybody else my fingers on the pulse I lick my finger I put it to the wind I know exactly what's going down our ecosystem was boring it was slow nobody was interested nobody

was participating you guys were stoked the the sophisticated investors were still stoked they saw the vision but our active participants they all went to salana dude I can't tell you how many pudgy penguin holders have crushed it over in that ecosystem I mean I know guys and gals who have made tens of millions of dollars you know literally changing their life going on salana and so it's my job as a Founder to meet my my community and my hopefully my future Community where they are right there's no reason to go and and to try to go against a tide right in a bull market you ride waves this is really important I actually took this advice from the Yuga Founders they put it in in uh in uh they had said it in an interview years

back and I think there's a line between this and I I am very conscious of this line so it's important but they said the best thing that they ever did was catch Trends and be top of mind on everything right so now where you thinking memes and you check the scoreboard I don't know how you can say there's three better more prolific more important memes in crypto today than penu when you're looking at nfts I could say the same when you're looking at abstract I will say the same right and it's important that when we do things I believe that we can win so I don't want just be an opportunist right there's a lot of room we could have done ordinals we could have done a bunch of things but you know being an opportunist to create long-term liabilities in which I don't think we can actually win is not the

business that I'm in right I'm in the business of actually winning in places that I know we can win and so pudgy Penguins right I think it is this Cycle's board ape I think we are positioned to be that that if anyone is going to be that it's us I think when you look at pangu you know we are this Cycle's you know you know this cycle shibainu or in my opinion apoin or Doge like we are positioned to be that cultural phenomenon in a way that nobody else is you know when we look at abstract you know abstract is going to take a little more elbow grease right because I think those guys at base are putting on an absolute Clinic uh and that and that is the only one on my sites in terms of you know people that it's going to be tough to compete with

and to be Frank you know that's that's going to come down to the wire that's going to come down to the final final minutes of game seven but again I believe in our ability I think we've assembled one of the best teams in crypto I don't think there's five teams better than us I think if you look at the entire Igloo we just know what we're doing and uh now we just got to put the work in you think you think it's you you think it's GNA be abstract fast forward two years from now it's abstract versus base for the best l2s totally scale is the blockchain that is Simply Built different let's face it other L1 networks have costly transaction fees that increase as the network gets busier scale has solved this problem with a gas-free scalable infrastructure where users never pay gas

fees scale was awarded the most active gaming chain in 2023 by coin Gecko and host five of the top 25 games on dap radar you should definitely check out scale I was using it the other day it really is incredible to use that's scale spelled with a K hit the link in the show notes or head on over to scale dospace ecosystem to get started today hey everyone Jason here I wanted to take a second to break down why magic Eden is getting into token trading their team is extremely concerned that crypto is still Consolidated in the hands of a few centralized exchanges who act as Gatekeepers ultimately recreating the trafi space they believe that crypto is still missing an onchain binance and their aim is to move trading completely

on chain fully decentralized they've done 6 billion in nft volume in the last 3 years and have had more than 1.4 million users visit their platform in the past year making them the number one nft platform in the market today they are the ones that can do it stay up to date with magic Eden's journey by giving them a follow on X at Magic Eden Unis swap wallet is designed to easily manage store and swap your crypto all in one place access thousands of tokens across ethereum and 10 plus chains including Bas arbitrum optimism and more Unis sw's wallet has built in me protection and zero gas fees with swaps that go through Unis swap X you can also swap with the

peace of mind that the code is completely open- source and independently audited download it today it's available on Chrome IOS and Android hey everyone Jason here wanted to uh just take a quick break and highlight everything that's been going on in the mantle ecosystem in just one year mant has seen its tvl surge by over 1,100% now reaching $11.69 billion that's just such a crazy amount to think about more than 225 protocols have made mantle their home while the platform's Eco fund has invested $38.5 million in 51 pioneering projects through strategic Partnerships

with buybit including MNT as collateral supporting Athena to scale and the first ethereum L2 to integrate Ono Finance they just continue to be on the bleeding edge of l2s be sure to stay up to date with what's going on by giving them a follow on X at ZX manle special thanks to the incredible mantle team for sponsoring today's episode hey everyone Jason here our friends over at Ledger are running some great holiday deals this season upgrade to their latest product The Ledger Flex while earning $70 in Bitcoin The Ledger Flex is their next Generation Ledger wallet featuring a secure eink touchcreen this allows you to easily and confidently review transactions and clear sign it's powered

by the secure element chip and Ledger proprietary OS keeping the keys to your assets completely offline it genuinely is the smoothest Ledger experience I've ever had definitely recommend upgrading to it their holiday offer is valid until December 23rd or while supplies last so be sure to hit the link in the description of today's episode so you don't miss out on this really good deal so so you decided to deploy on salana and I I I appreciate there's some connectivity U why not launch your like entire L1 why not why not us launching L1 I think for us you know we're in the business you if you truly believe you're you have you are this like dominant

Force you've captured the M chair and the sight gist there's no one out there that has like penetrated the Walmarts of the world like you're in Walmart there's no other company in crypto this Walmart like why not own that stack and make it like you you own your own destiny now it could be like an avalanche L1 could be your own L1 I'm just kind of curious it just comes down to the build I think I it's something we've discussed about and it's like look like ultimately we believe you know I I'll tell you I'll tell you the answer the the the honest answer the honest answer is I'm not I'm I'm not going to sell you as you know I I think it'd be a disservice to put our talents and our efforts to build Tech right ZK sycs built the best tech the

elastic chain I think is the best you know technological L2 stack let Alex and the ZK crew make the best tech right I'm not a tech I'm not a techn a technologist I'm not a a tech innovator I'm a I'm a worldclass marketer with a worldclass community with a worldclass creative team that knows how to get pmf and speak to the real world in a way that I think very few people can I am not an engineer we have some amazing Engineers right but I want their focus to be on ux UI and and features that I think Mak sense right in terms of abstracting the blockchain layer and making that experience the best

experience possible rather than foundationally right like I'm not in the business of just trying to maximize maximum value AC cruel right like I could be and maybe maybe we will evolve into that but I think in the interm I'm in the business of of winning and telling a story and doing something for crypto that I think very few people can right very few people in crypto I think have The Branding and marketing and creative chops that I think we have and we need to play our role in pushing the space forward by owning that vertical right like us going and I'd be pretty bearish if you saw me in the next six months going and trying to build the next great Innovative L1 right and it's less about owning the stack and really what's doing what's in the best interest

of the community and I think an L2 is in the best interest of the community Luka I mean on this the reason I'm asking is I'm going through the iteration myself um like I hear you on I'm sort of allergic to building like all this there's fantastic teams that have have built good stuff you could license it or you could build something like candidly like a an L1 like Avalanche 9000 right like it's just they made it like the vision of Cosmos but like actually there um you know you the reason I bring it up is like Off the Grid like gonzilla I think about like also like something that's cracked into the the mainstream they've clearly decided to deploy as an avalanche L1 and people should go listen to that that episode and he kind of the walks through

that framework which I thought was for me eye opening as well but I'm I'm curious like um yeah you never want to build from scratch like a monad Bara seems like a Herculean effort where you are you own consumer you rather Focus your effort on that but like an L1 like Avalanche why not that yeah I think I think it maybe it just comes down to the stacks like we we didn't explore it maybe the way that we should have right right but ultimately like look ZK sync does all the things that I needed to do they're ahead of the curve by a Texas mile on a count abstraction they have low fees fast transactions and I just believe in that Tech stack as being the tech stack to power you know these type of interfaces and these type of you know chains that we want to build and and

maybe we you know to be frank maybe we didn't explore it hard enough I know cigar specifically who's leading the charge there is a big ethereum Maxi I know he wanted to stay ethereum aligned you know naturally you know that's the team that we acquired I don't know if they have that much familiar in the cosmos SDK or the Avalanche L1 and so you know I'm not just trying to go and do something just to go and do it and and to go tap into an L1 narrative because naturally those are priced higher or there might be more value AC cruel like ultimately like ethereum got us this far you know we pay homage to ethereum you know us launching penu on salana is not a shot on ethereum ethereum is trying to accomplish something that I think no other chain is trying to accomplish and we feel

comfortable you know building on the elastic chain on the ZK stack and ultimately you know it solves I think some of the biggest hurdles for us in terms of our n thesis from a technological perspective which is you know the best account abstraction uh and the best experience for us to kind of power you know maybe that changes but I don't think so I I think we're pretty comfortable where we are it's important that I recognize what we're good at and what we're bad at I know what we're good at uh and and I'm going to leave the the things that we're bad at to the people that are good at those things uh and so I it's important I stay in my lane and don't get too my head doesn't get too big and I don't start discombobulating and going into territories that I don't

think we're fully ready for so maybe there's a change but I don't foresee it I don't foreshadow it the ZK experience has been nothing short of amazing up until this point uh and I plan on staying there for as long as I can see into the future luuka give us some uh Alpha on the abstract airdrop and just how you think about this yeah I think it's uh I think I think it's I think it starts in it's it's you're gonna see something I think that's a lot I I that's that's the Universe telling me to not not say too much I you're gonna see a reinvention of it so naturally like because we launched on salana it had to be a claim right so right you know but but because we're on evm there's going to be and and penu

will be on evm and you know pudgy penguin nfts are on evm it's going to make this process a lot less stressful right uh it's going to be nothing but a couple clicks of a button and so I'm excited for that um I I think the biggest thing people want to know is is this going to pangu Holders or to pudgy holders or to both I'm in the business of rewarding the people who support me right this is really important now this is this is really important for all the founders out there yeah you lose the support of the people who support you you've lost right I'm in the business of taking care of the people who support me above all else right you support me I will support you and and it starts and stops there now there's going to be some

interesting levers that we're going to pull some things that I think are going to change how people look at aird drops moving forward but I'm gonna leave that to be a surprise but long story short y know I'm in the business of supporting people who support me and that's whether you're a penu holder a pudgy penguin holder or an abstract Community member you know you support me I'll support you and hopefully you know what we did on H Tuesday was indicative of that yeah the um you were saying price is a lagging indicator um so if you look at the price of Pudgies it's been kind of crazy so a year ago right the last time you came on the show was summer of Summer last year Pudgies were around 4 eth actually last time you came on the show was when you bowled me up on Pudgies um then there

was obviously it ran up like crazy uh so here I can pull up the monthly chart it ran up to 30 what is that 35 eth and then the claim happened fell down to 15 eth now we're back to 17 you said price is a lagging indicator but you have the insights as the founder so what is the fair price of penguins right now you you know I can't speak on that uh you know ultimately at the end of the day this this is this is you know until this cycle is over this will this will remain true everyone who's faded us has coped right and that's it right like you you will you will buy at the price that you deserve and that you'd like and and and

if you don't believe you don't believe but ultimately I think the I think the data and the line items behind the data support that you know there isn't five teams to bet on that I think are are are more in you know that that that that are better place than us I just don't think that I I just I you can't convince me otherwise I think we've earned the right to say that and you know ultimately at the end of the day I made a promise to my community I'm gonna fulfill that promise I'm not going to tell you what that promise is here but the community members who've been around for a long time know what that promise is and we're just getting started right like this is this is the beginning of the beginning for us right and we are now in a

position where we have a ton of Leverage we have a ton of Goodwill we have a ton of trust and credibility right the narrative is Never Fade the EO we it's been the narrative now for a couple of years I think it's even more prominent today and though you saw a drop in floor price if you look at what they got it's pretty much a wash it's pretty much at a 30 eth 28 eth today when you look at current prices and what we gave each pudgy and ultimately I'm fulfilling my promise I told them I'd take care of them I'm going to continue to take care of them and as long as you're in this ecosystem I look at you like a family member and I take care of my family so it just starts and stops there and and and if you think that the best of us is

done you have another thing coming I think we're going to do in the next six months more than we've done in the last three years and we're going to put on a clinic that I think is going to be worthy of an HBO series when it's all said and done let's go all right let's get away from price in the air drop for a second Luka the thing I think people don't understand as much about you and that I've gotten a fun view just having gotten to know you over the years is I think you are one of the best dealmakers in the industry um Walmart are you guys in Target too I'm pretty sure um I heard you on a podcast with Kevin back in June or July talking about one of the biggest deals you've ever worked on um I you know the acquisition of the L2 right

abstract I don't think people understand uh you are a very good dealmaker what is your approach to deal making um that's a great question uh one that I've never gotten before um you know start with a low anchor you know first things first but but I actually am genuinely asking because uh I know there's the negotiating at the final line but there's like getting into Walmart I assume is not a you email the you know head of BD at Walmart I assume there's a lot of negotiating there's networking to get in I assume it's a 12month deal minimum like what do some of these deals actually look like it's hustle and belief right so what you see on this podcast a lot of people are like

yo are you like do you just do that and I'm like no no I I genuinely believe to my core so you know what you see is what you get it's actually to the point where if I don't believe I'll actually Herm it in right and like you won't see me for like a couple weeks right and like I won't be active like I I I can I can sway on the pendulum but you know majority of the time I have unequivocal belief right and so you know there's been I'm not going to lie and say there's not been moments where the belief has been tested right but I really just believe in this I just I just it's just really hard for me when I just look at the lot and I just compare what we have versus the next person whether it's nfts or tokens or whatever

I just have unequivocal belief in this I have unequivocal belief in the brand I have unequivocal belief in the IP and the community and I think for us it's like look if I believe then I just have to match it with hustle right and and at the end of the day like closed mouths don't get fed I'm only going to succeed by the sweat of my brow and by the hours that I put in I'm young I'm hungry and I want to win and I want to succeed and I'm competitive dude that's really what it comes down to I should have I should have been an athlete if I wasn't doing this because all I love above all else is winning I don't really care that much about the money I changed my life when I was 18 years old thank God right like I

really like pudgy Penguins for me was like this transition from like internet Hustler opportunist to like hey like go build something great because you're more than that you're more than a money maker right you are somebody that can go change the world you're somebody that can make an impact and one of the most beautiful things that has transpired outside of pudgy is actually the the the public good that it's become for people right if you follow K penu on Tik Tok I mean 500 million views on 10 videos all predicated around changing people's lives when you look at some of the comments on the Instagram posts people are literally just like i' I've seen comments as crazy as like you've you've prevented me from killing myself like how cool is that to go and push something to go be a part of something that is you know doing good for the

world whether you're a holder or a pudgy penguin nft holder I want you to feel good about that you are supporting that impact and that mission uh and so I think from our perspective it's it's it's it's about something bigger you know I if we can accomplish it yeah Luka a lot of it is obviously youve been incredibly successful walk us through what are those moments where you've doubted yourself take us into that take us into that cave yeah dude I mean like I I won't give you guys the Saab story but if we want to run through like the and tribulations I mean let's let's just look at it right you know people might say Hey listen he has a billion dollar nftd collection he's launched at2 billion dollar you know protocol he's cruising but I don't think

that's the case no it's not the case because dude I mean I I got sick to my stomach how's a whiff more more than a pangu it just doesn't make any sense how's a shibainu and I love them like I'm not saying anything like I just believe in myself and what we've built so much so I'm this is not a Victory lap we have to go so much harder H dude we have to go so much harder because until I win I need to be able to say I told you so uh and I haven't gotten There Yet now a little I've gotten a little bit there but you know back to the to the point of the struggle you know and I told you so you know this was a rough journey I mean we bought this for two and a half million bucks we put 500

Grand into the account the whole SE Suite didn't get paid more than ,000 dollar a month really for legal reasons right for the first 12 months two days after we bought it we started a downtrend into the one of the worst bare markets and Black Swan events we've ever seen a month after we bought it royalties went to zero right so any cash flow projections on the purchase went to zero right we literally had to jump right into building the real business which I'm super stoked that it happened again super grateful in hindsight 2020 I had business partner screw me there was you know there's four horsemen in terms of like the co-founders of pudgy there was there was five or six right I got really I'm not going to talk about that story but I got hammered by dudes who were my best friends literally backstabbed in the

back the worst way possible right we took every bad beat every as we were in Walmart as we were in whatever you know they they they uh you know like nobody even cared right we were down 5% on Walmart right there was moments where we were just so down bad they tried to cancel me and frame me five different ways off of like just we can get it into that in a sec you know Yano I know you probably want to because you sent me that message uh you know like they they threw every punch and and and the the the hardest part is I rais I went to 300 Venture investors and all of them told me no right at the same time they were funding things left and right in the same category in the same industry that we were and and I literally for people

who know I called LinkedIn I don't I don't have a venture I've never raised money before all the money I've made as I've made and I've seed everything that I've done up until this point right so it's I've never had to go and ask for external Capital but it was needed because people were checking out right after like the 11th month of working for free people were like so what are we doing this for right it wasn't really clicking uh and and so I had to go raise and I and I literally sat there and I pitched every VC Under the Sun from web 2 VCS to web 3 VCS pretty much all of them told me no the only two real Venture investors that are in on this are 1kx and big brain right and then there's some other Venture investors that but they put a couple hundred grand

most of our cap table is Angels right uh and so it's just like you know it's hard it's hard to you know believe in something and put millions of dollars on the line it's hard for the market to literally turn royalties your Revenue stream that you forecasted and projected on the purchase literally go to nothing right to have your back against the wall to have Partners backstab you to have every Venture investor just look at your resume and look at what you've done up until that point and say you're not good enough while funding people that I think are half the entrepreneurs I am with 10 times the money that I asked for right and then to then go and do amazing things like Walmart and to get you know other communities be like yeah that's that's cute that's cute right but that you know that's not as important as what

we've got going on right and just be perpetually Faded by every nft Community up until probably recently you know it's it hasn't been easy but you know again this is crypto's greatest Underdog Story it is crypto's greatest CTO Community takeover it is the little guy it is for the People by the people Against All Odds and we are not done the little guy just didn't come this far to come this far the little guy is going to keep going and it's going to make history in a way that I think nobody's ever seen before God damn this could be a man of the Arena speech um here I'm gonna go 10x lever long no none of this financial legal advice but nonetheless um yeah I do think the best Founders have like this near trauma death experience uh either at a very

person company level it sounds like you did too um what you said something that I find to be true like you find that certain teams and projects just get like most of the attention and funding and it and and there are fantastic teams just don't what is that a you problem is that a market problem is that a like what is it I I'm shocked because like I told I tell the res I tell I'm must suck at raising like I I must have like the worst pitch ever which is like fine like I'm not like I don't know I don't know what it is I don't know what it is I think I I think in hindsight I was pretty pragmatic right like I'm a realist I don't like to sell you on a like I I can only sell you on what I

believe right so when I was Raising those early rounds you know maybe my belief wasn't you know a hundred billion dollar consumer conglomerate which I think you know which I think Igloo can become now I think we're positioned to be crypto's first ever consumer conglomerate right so like I was pragmatic I was a realist and I think that doesn't serve you well when raising Venture right but I love to live in my reality right I think is probably one I I like like to like I like to be like I like not this grandos Vision but like you don't never want to like you you always like want to be a realist when you talk you don't want to be laughed out of the room but sometimes BC's want to see like and I I've gone through this process with a new thing that I'm doing

now it's like there's one slide that I was like [ __ ] it I'm just goingon to say it this could be the best the largest economy period like this Grand idea like do I believe it like part of it is just putting it on paper it's like well [ __ ] yeah I believe it can you be the next Pixar like I guess like a VC like did you ever tell a VC when you're raising like I want to be the next Pixar or Disney I I I told him I was like this is this is what Disney is going to look like in 2050 doing it in 2024 I said that verbatim right you did like anchor high like it sounds like you know yeah yeah I mean I didn't do that until the later pitches when checks started actually getting cut so there was an

adjustment I mean I mean I mean I'm not gonna say like to to some of those Venture investors that pass I'm not gonna say that I didn't spend 30 minutes of the pitch talking about my life story right like I didn't know how to pitch so you know I just tried I just tried to make people believe in me I think my life story was important because it's a story of perseverance right like I I've been through it all I've been through hell my stress tolerance is through the roof right like there's nothing that can batter me down I'm gonna make it through and as long as I don't give up I will win do I win in the next three months do I win in the next six months the beauty of penu is it's out there and so I know I'm not going anywhere I know I'm

showing up 14 15 16 hours a day and as long as I do that it's not if it's when I told the community this years ago I said it's not if it's when believe the same thing is going to trans fire here it is not if it's when as long as I show up as long as the community remains unified as long as I continue to deliver as long as I don't decide to take from them and do something egregious and greedy right which I will never do I will always put their best interest above anyone else's I will win and we will succeed it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when so you know I don't know I'm not a great pitcher I now now I have everyone in every fun in their mom trying to send me a turn sheet

I'm like look if it's not north of a billion dollars don't even your time I won't even look at it right so maybe things are different now but you know it it was hard and and we got Luka we got these things all over our office by the way we got like 30 of these the these were genius Santi you don't you don't see this you never shares any of this I I still every like four months every four months Luca's just airdropping actual merch Pudgy's merch to block works like just infiltrating I can only imagine how many companies you're doing that with luk every Santi I want to send you a care package I know you're you know you're I'll go to Miami and pick it up let's put it that way yeah there you go here here's the your put on community a lot

of times when I interact you know that time where a lot of artists were thinking about launching their own nft collection and whatnot it opens up a vector where if price goes up it's all gravy like it is very synergistic like you know it can really work but there's also that downside like you know Market's down right now you know penu is down 25% right now you know people still the early holder are made out exceptionally well to your point um what happens if this thing like in crypto things can go down 80 90% you know that's just the nature of the Beast um do do you care about that is that something that you think about or or you said listen we live through this once where the collection was a you know there's a hardened Community there's new

community members that are now buying pengu that don't have the nft and how do you how do you just think about that and managing that as a leader of this community movement yeah I I you know the the elephant in the room is like I think this like whole founder notion of not caring about it is like such a Fool's it's a it's a it's a Fool's path right you got to care about it you gotta understand too that there's there's few things that you can control right like I can't control a two billion dollar asset I can show up I can deliver I can continue to execute I can continue to do everything that we're doing bigger and better and that has worked and it will continue to work and so whether it goes up 100% or down 90% you know regardless the the facts remain true is I know how

this industry works now this industry rewards success it rewards hard work it rewards people delivering for their community members and if it goes up and it goes down in the short term I'm not worried as long as Sheba enu is at 15 billion bucks penu is underpriced to me it just is because if you look at the data and you look at the metrics funds and everyone's going to catch on it's a very simple thing to understand everyone loves the penguin women men everyone you know the point of the matter is is like when it when it comes down to the story and the lore you just can't tell me that aiba enu is more important to crypto than paji penguins penu and if and and I'm not going anywhere I'm just gonna deliver I'm

gonna execute to your point Santi I really hate that Jerome was hawkish because you know I hated look you can't control that right but this might be a great entry point like look I I didn't have any Pudgies I'm an idiot you know I should have bought when you came on the Pod before and Yano actually did and so um but you know I'm I'm a big believer that you know look if you look farther out than six months in a year you can see incredible entry points and if you look deep down and there are I will say it a bit on the record of saying I think there are a handful of serious builders in crypto crypto's just been an industry that's grown so much by virtue of

Bitcoin point and you know the interest but it's this went from 100 you know5 billion industry to 2.5 trillion the market is just rewarded you know the margin of of like the quality of teams has hasn't had to be like nine 10 out of 10 but I do think that that changes if you really want to win five 10 years out you want to survive you need to be best [ __ ] in class not in crypto like full stop and if you do that well there's a path to becoming hundred billion dollar company a trillion dollar company if you don't believe it like there there will be projects in crypto that are going to be bigger than Bitcoin I believe it that's why I'm here bitcoin's the least interesting thing about this

industry can you build the next Nvidia the next you there are trillion dollar companies there will be multiple trillion dollar companies in crypto I agree there's no reason I agree to everything you just said it's been underwhelming sometimes you meet these teams and the market just kind of funds it's it's all very self-referential it's a lot of [ __ ] Luka I know you got to hop in a sec anything else that we missed on we didn't cover pudgy world I know you did The Empire Community wanted me to ask you about the your your past as well um but yeah I think I think every time we do something great somebody tries to bring it up and and there's there's one article there's actually one guy on Twitter he's like the reply guy he's like has anyone seen this article has

anyone oh no they love it there's like three guys who I think are just like perpetually angry and it's strange you know one thing I accepted as like look the the you know I'm a people pleaser it's probably a bad person personality trait for myself probably good for the community and and for the people that I interact with but I think from my perspective it's like I came to this realization like dude there's people that hate Elon Musk and as an entrepreneur I just can't even fathom how somebody could hate a guy like that right probably the best entrepreneur that's ever existed and like there's guys calling him a grifter right and then it's like dude like at the end of the day like what this guy's calling me a drop shipper like dude I grew up [ __ ] homeless with my mom you know

like my mom was sleeping in the living room the M the moment we got a home right for the first time and you know I made it out Drop Shipping like how else is somebody supposed to make it out right like whatever that is and then and then they make this claim to fame that's like oh some of the money that you used to buy pudgy is tied to the nft projects you know my my president and my co-founder Lorenzo ran a a company called Cowboy labs they were going to raise a huge Venture round before we bought pudgy their whole business was basically creating technology to Mint nfts for people right they did over $200 million in secondary transactions through the platform I think $50 million in primary mints and he took his fee right like if people are going to start getting attacked for taking fees for

playing a role in projects right as service providers if if if they are now responsible for the failure of those projects this industry is done right I I for most people don't know I own a huge Instagram network of millions of followers through these channels people come to me all the time or at at least to the group that now runs that uh you know I'm obviously not in the day-to-day you know doing those exchanges and running those promotional campaigns through those platforms basically on autop pilot right but when people go through those platforms and want me to promote things right I charge my fee is that a percentage is that you know a flat rates you know at at some amount that I yield for some premium like that's my prerogative but you know if I order something on fashion Nova and fashion Nova and the product comes you

know ripped and burned is it the marketing agency who fed me the ad who's responsible for the shitty product that got delivered or is it the shitty product ultimately you know this is my first time being a founder and and a Creator in any nft project in crypto or anything in crypto this is the only foundational Equity role that I've ever played anything I've ever done before I charged a service and charged a fee some people would argue that that fee was egregious because I did make good money I ultimately think marketing is the most important variable in crypto for these crypto projects so I think you have the most leverage to charge whatever fee that you want my co-founder literally won Cowboy Labs literally won A Wharton upen blockchain accelerator number one because of this business the same business that people are saying is

like a scam and they're scammers I'm like you you know the the second that we penalize service providers and people playing roles in ecosystems uh you know within the industry is the second we've all failed now naturally there's just people who are angry and they're going through their own personal you know vendettas and and trials and tribulations and I can't tell you how many people used to call me mean things a year ago go that come to me and say dude I was in a bad spot and I remember the same time that I've I've been an internet keyboard Warrior anytime that I was in that mindset and and saying those things on the internet I was uncomfortable with myself I was going through something and I was lashing out on people so I take it all with a grain of salt ultimately I think the final

take to this point is actually a tweet that I saw this morning ironically enough it was so ironic because it was two tweets back to back it was one tweet that basically said you know Warren Buffett is the best Venture investor of all time right and just gave him his flowers and the second tweet was Warren Buffett you know invests in products that are killing the American people and he is responsible for more deaths for Americans than any other person in the world you know two sides of the same coin is just how you rather look at it and what framing you want to take it right and it just comes down to that you're not going to please everyone the sophisticated people the people who are real who do real [ __ ] nobody comes to me you know saying those things because everyone knows the deal the people

who've just never done it and or going through things you know they have their own prerogative but they probably think Elon Musk is a grifter and so I just ignore it and move on my my take on it I read the article is um is most people who came of age with the internet and who are now Founders have at some point done some hustle on the internet that is frowned upon like Drop Shipping like I remember like I chose between Drop Shipping and trading Forex in college Forex like trading Forex also gets a horrible name right but it's just a way to try to make money on the internet before it became clear to me that I could start a company right there's all you know multi-level marketing Amway Herbal Life Verve Cutco can't tell you how many friends I have who who did that

too right I got involved in with one of those when I was 18 you're just trying to make money on the internet before you realize that you can you know there's a lot there's a lot of Founders who played poker online like you gotta respect the hustle and look if you're gonna if you're gonna shoot and CR criticize it's like man you you best believe that you know you're gonna back it up you backed it up right you bought this community you took it from where it was to to where it is now and you know people always you you know it's like it's it's like it what would you rather be someone that no one talks about faded into irrelevance or someone that you know the path to Greatness is there's always going to be critics always yeah yeah hate you for it but I love the scene in

the the last Dan that Michael Jordan and all his teammates are describing how difficult it was to work with Michael and then they stop and then one guy looks at his hands and like all the five championship rings no one can take that [ __ ] greatness away from you yeah Luka pleasure man I know you got to jump appreciate the time congrats on everything uh get some rest get some sleep man appreciate you pleasure as always hey everyone thanks for watching today's episode just wanted to quickly thank today's title sponsor scale scale really is one of the best chain experiences out there today and I've used so many different chains there's a reason they are gaining so so much adoption in both gaming and AI use cases hit the link in the show notes to

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