🟢 LIVE: Tokenization Hits S&P500, Visa Settles on Polygon, Trust Wallet, Serotonin, Securitize & 1kx

Transcript

[music] [music] [music] [music] 17 floor. We'll see you around the timeline.

Feels good to be back. [music] >> I think The Rollup is one of the most premier media [singing] brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great [music] experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding it to my library every week. >> Potentially multi-chain deployments. Here we are at [music] day one here. I'm from B. [music] [music] [music] [music]

>> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions.

It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. [music] >> He said it. HE FINALLY SAID IT. >> So bullish. It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] [music] >> [music] [music]

>> Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. [music] Heat. [music] >> [music] >> Corola [music]

is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the roll up. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

>> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're [music] simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] This is the nest. See you on the show. >> What is going on ladies and gentlemen? Welcome back to the rollup. I am here live from Miami, Florida. Everyone and everyone else is coming to Miami, Florida next week for Consensus Miami. We are absolutely stoked. We've got a dinner. We've got an event. Shout out to the Modern Money crew. We're not in the tokenization tower today yet. Our friends at Plume are they're holding

down the nest. Andy's in El Salvador. He's in Bitcoin Beach. So, I am going to be running the show today. And so, we're doing it from Miami. We're doing it down here in South Florida. And uh we still love our friends back at the Nest. Shout out to Plume, guys. They're holding down the tokenization tower while we are coming at you from the south, guys. It feels good. It's another beautiful day in Florida. And so we are going to be having a great show for you guys today. Uh we've got a stellar [snorts] lineup.

I think we've got five guests today. Uh that is the most amount of guests that we've had in a long long time because there's a lot going on and we want we want to bring you guys the best of the best. So we've got Adrian from Portoino. We've got Sherem from Trustwlet. We've got Patrick from Saratonin. They just released uh a very cool report on uh let's see on I believe it was on the state of onchain finance. We're going to we're going to talk a lot more about that. Uh but very very cool they were able to release that report from serotonin. Uh 1KX is going to be joining the show as well. Uh we've got Lass Clawson who's going to be joining from 1KX. And then a late addition to the

show on the heels of the announcement from Securitize. Guys, you don't see it on today's topics because this was breaking news that we're going to be hearing from the man himself, Billy Miller, the COO of Securitize, is going to be joining the show to cap us off and tell us about uh the latest announcement from Securitize, which we're going to cover in our news section, and then we're going to have a lot more to talk about with Billy later on. So, I'm extremely excited for our show today. It's going to be another great show. Uh before we get into our news section, shout out to Fracks, guys, our exclusive stable coin partner. These guys are building the future of digital money. Uh we are pleasure uh we are friends with

Fracks. They're doing a great job. We saw Sam on the stage at Bitcoin Las Vegas, which was absolutely incredible to see. He was beside Patrick Wit. Uh so it's cool. Sam is playing a little bit of a different game, I think, than the rest of the stable coin providers. You know, Circle's been on some hot water. Tether's been making a ton of investments. Sam just continues to position himself next to the leaders in DC. This feels like where you got to get a seat at the table in order to make an impact in the stable coin world these days. Guys, it's a warm one. I think New York is warm these days, too, but it's warm here in Florida. Uh, this is just a little bit of a shout to everyone who's going to be joining us next week. Like I said, we're going to be partnered up

with the Momentum X crew. These guys throw tremendous events. We're going to host the dinner. That one's a little bit more exclusive for some of our VC friends. And then we've got Modern Money, the event series that has been all over the world. You guys saw it in New York. It's coming to Miami. Uh if you guys want to attend, uh hit us up. Do a little due diligence. I'm sure all of our friends watching the show. Uh certainly we'll we'll make the invite and and we'll get you guys out there. have a drink or two and we'll have a great time uh at Modern Money uh in Miami. So, our weather section is sponsored by Relay, guys. From New York to Miami, these guys will take you crosschain wherever you need to go. Go to relay.link in order to take their

crosschain bridge. I think I was saying on the show recently I I was recently cleaning up some old wallets uh had to bridge some things consolidate some things and uh consistently in the aggregators uh relay came up as the most efficient route and so that's just a little bit of firsthand uh experience on the bridging world which I think intense just continues to show you know if you look at near intent you look at relay uh and and and you look at lei and and you look at across these are the intent protocols calls. They're doing lots of volume and they're they're not getting exploited like uh we've seen on some of these other one of one DVN bridges. So, shout out to Relay for sponsoring our

weather. Uh that is the weather section for today. Prices are, you know, these all show red, but everything's pretty much flat. Um you know, Bitcoin's flat, ETH is flat, hovering around that 22 to 2350 mark. Uh, Bitcoin has been back between that 75 to 78 range. Um, you know, we had that pop from the high 60s all the way up to the to these mid70s here, mid to high 70s. Um, and it just feels like, look, we just got to continue to push the needle in order for sentiment to match the prices that we're seeing on the charts. We're not quite doing that.

You know, we had that run up uh and now we've stagnated. Feels like we've plateaued around these levels. This all kind of feels like chop. Everything is macrocorrelated. Uh we've got a big big day today in the traditional world. We've got a FOMC meeting uh that'll be coming out during the show and so we're going to be bringing uh the news to you guys here. It does seem as if no change is going to be the resolution from Powell's last event. Give it up for Powell, guys. Man, he he had hell of a run. Hell of a run.

Powell. This is his last FOMC. Then we're going to be welcoming Kevin Walsh. It seems like his committee is going to get approved. He's going to get confirmed. Uh so this is the last that we're going to see from Powell. Guys, if you want to hear from Powell, uh I'm curious, what questions would you ask him? You guys know they do the press conference and then they ask him a hell of a lot of questions uh in in the coverage afterwards. Uh give us a a hit in the comments. What would you guys be uh telling Pal? What would you be asking him uh on his last FOMC press conference today? Should be a nothing burger. It's believed to be no change according to the prediction markets. I'm curious what you guys want to hear from Powell on his last meeting today. As always, markets

are sponsored by our friends at Zama. I do believe Zama is part of the uh privacy preserving ethos of crypto and digital assets. Uh, Bitcoin has been commandeered by Sailor and the rest of the institutions. And so we've got Zcash leading the way as the cryptographic currency uh really reservicing and reaffirming the ethos. I believe Zama fits firmly into the category of privacy which we've been talking about so deeply on this show. It's what institutions want. It's what the crypto natives want. Uh Zama is bringing FHE to the masses.

They're also tokenizing uh treasuries to the tune of billions of dollars. They're doing that with T-Rex, and I expect a lot more out of Zama. Shout out to Zama for sponsoring our markets today, guys. Let's keep it moving. Uh, like I said, a tremendous show for you guys today. Oil is spiking while we're on uh on the markets. And then equities, we've got we've got an incredible lineup of earnings calls that are be going live today. This this is the most significant week when it comes to the equities markets. We're still ahead of the IPOs.

Elon is taking SAM to court. We're going to get into the earnings calls. Uh and and this does uh it it feels like this means uh kind of make it or break it time for equities that people feel like are overheated. We'll see if this number go up technology continues to work its magic. Before we get into our news for today, let me tell you about Mir, our exclusive AI partner. These guys are tightening up ironclaw. They have deals in the works, I hear, with major institutions. Maybe not the institutions that you guys are typically accustomed to hearing about. Maybe it's not the financial institutions. Maybe it's large institutions. These guys are AIing the entire world. Uh get on really because

uh you know the longer that you go without an ironclaw, the farther you fall behind. And I'm sorry to put it that way, but that's just the reality of the situation. Uh you guys can go to near uh excuse me, near aai.org uh to go download Ironclaw. Get caught up to your peers. Another thing that's going on right now, Nicholas Stellner, [snorts] don't buy a home right now. Wait three years for prices to come down. This is the worst time to buy in American history. rent for now.

This is incredible uh because you have two things happening. On one hand, you have the most overheated housing market in history in America. Uh there were some housing data that came out today about how sellers are lowering prices at an incredible rate. And so prices are falling. You don't want to be buying uh because prices are continuing to fall. people feel like this is just just getting started. We haven't yet seen equities match this and so it feels like a lot of things are starting to come together. Uh Paul Tudtor Jones went on a podcast recently said this bare market feels like it's the easiest one to predict. It looks just like 2000 uh

right before we had the dot bubble as it was overheating and then obviously 2001 happened. It feels like housing crisis are converging at the same time that we're getting equities overbought. I feel like super pessimistic, super doomerism saying this. But on one hand, you have the housing data showing us that housing prices are coming down. It's a good time to wait to buy as you see housing prices bottom. And if you're trying to sell, it feels like it's it's now or never or else you're going to be locked into your home for another few years. On the other hand, you know, we've all seen these charts where, hey, you know, there's the most amount of

young adults, specifically young men that are unmarried and don't own their home that are the average age, the medium home buyer average age continues to increase. I think it's at least in our 30s, if not in our 40s, that we're seeing the median home firsttime home buyer finally purchase a home. And so you kind of have this dichotomy happening where, you know, people see these metrics, they don't want to be another statistic, they want to buy their home sooner rather than later, but at the same time, we have the quote unquote experts and the data telling us don't buy a home right now. And so just continue to play into the statistics.

Doesn't matter that the medium home buyer is continuing to raise in age. Doesn't matter that you're unmarried and you don't own your home. you will own nothing and you will be happy at least for the next three years and then maybe prices come down, they bottom and you want to buy the dip. People are always going to need need a place to live. And so if you're patient and you've got uh if you got time on your side, which young people do, whether you buy a home now, you buy a home in three years, I don't think it really matters if you plan on living in that home. If you plan on renting that home out, being a landlord, playing the real estate game, that's an entirely different game. in which case you might want to take this housing data more seriously. However, if you're planning on buying a home, living

in your primary residence three years from now versus today, it's not going to make a big difference 20 years from now uh when you're looking to move from your primary residence or buy a second home. That's what the affluent individuals are doing here on the rollup. Guys, let's keep it moving. Pretty interesting things happening across the equities markets and the real estate markets. Over here in cryptoland in digital asset world, we have Blockworks. This is a proud portfolio company of the rollup. Uh I think that is the first time that we're mentioning this on the show. You guys might be thinking, Rollup, Blockworks, aren't you guys competing? What are you doing? Why are you investing in Blockworks? Good Idea Ventures invested in Blockworks in the most recent round at the $192

million valuation. We believe their data product is an important addition to the institutional wave and so we are thrilled to help announce block works has made this raise pretty incredible. Crypto is at an inflection point. The bottleneck is to growth is no longer its technology. It's the trust gap between issuers and investors. And it's time to get the issuers investors on our side. Blockworks will help solve that. That is why Good Idea Ventures uh decided to write a check uh to our friends at Blockworks. Let's play the video.

Congrats to Blockworks. [music] [music] Good names here. I think you even I think you might have seen saw this clip play again. Was that the rollup logo? Did that flash in [music] there? You [music] know, one of these days, guys, we're going to be up here with the big logos, writing the big checks.

[music] Oh, the roll up. Look at that, guys. Made it into the Blockworks video. Shout out to our friends over [music] at Block Works. Um, this feels extremely complimentary. uh especially now since Block [music] Works has effectively sunset uh a lot of their news uh their news desk and some more of their media business. Um and so uh you know as we continue to proliferate uh into the media zeitgeist we believe block works uh is an important piece to the data uh the data stack. So there it is. Our editor did a great job. He's able to pause the video there. Nice work behind the scenes guys. Uh yeah, so very cool the rollup and uh good idea ventures

very proud to support block works on the next leg of their journey. You guys saw this is a series A extension. Uh Yano and Mike doing great jobs. We were at DS we were supporting there. The first in real life podcast that we did on the show floor at these conferences was permissionless and so it's uh it's very cool to see the partnership between Blockworks and the rollup continue to deepen. Uh, nothing but the best for those guys there. Plenty more that you guys can expect between our partnership here. Very, very excited for that. Let's keep it moving. Shout out to Block Works Series A Extension, guys. This is what I wanted to get to. This is what I'm excited about today. We've got Billy

Miller, who's going to be coming on the show later today to talk about this. Now we've got Carlos Domingo, the chief over at Securitize announcing an agreement with Computer Share. Guys, you may not be familiar with Computer Share, but they are the world's largest transfer agent. They manage close to 60% of the S&P 500, including the biggest companies that I'm sure you have you've heard of, companies like Apple, Tesla, Microsoft. A lot of these guys have earnings calls today. So it couldn't have came at a better time.

Uh Nvidia, Disney, Coinbase, these guys, Computershare help manage these companies as the largest transfer agent of the S&P. They become the tokenization partner for Securitize to bring stocks onchain natively in the US and abroad. They said it couldn't be done and then Securitize, Carlos, Billy, Tom, all the guys behind the scenes, they went out there and they did it. And so now we have onchain native stocks in the US and abroad retaining the same rights and economics that allow them to trade and borrow onchain. Guys, the name of the game here is the plethora of value propositions and use cases that become available to these assets. Think about

all the shareholders that don't want to touch meme coins. They don't want to touch tokens because value acrruel has been broken in this industry. Let's first recognize the problem. Value ac cruelty to tokens has been broken for a long, long time. The equities market has worked for hundreds of years, over 150 years. We've had equities markets that work. Now, we can take assets that have figured out value acrruel and we can layer on the value propositions of blockchain and permissionless finance. Guys, this is a match made in heaven for anyone who is against RWAS, which I think people are finally coming to their senses. They realize that we need high quality assets on chain. And then all of the protocols, all of these fancy DeFi

Legos that we know and love, as long as they're secure, we don't have any hacks, these things are able to finally benefit from the onslaught of quality capital and quality assets that will be entering the space. Shout out to Securitize for leading the charge, guys. Clip that. Securitize is leading the charge. Absolutely incredible to see. Carlos, Domingo, and team. Uh, why don't we scroll down? Is there more? Tokenize the world. Is that is that all we've got here? Um, if it is, that's incredible. These guys are doing great, great work. Um, very, very cool to see. And so, uh, big shout out to Carlos and the rest of the team. And I'm very excited to chat with Billy, uh,

later on in the show. We've got plenty of questions about what this means, how quickly this capital can come on chain when they're working with computer share. Do they need to go work directly with Apple, Tesla, Microsoft, Nvidia, or is this a oneshot distribution channel in which all of these tokenized equities will now be coming onchain once they are on chain? What are the biggest value propositions? Are they looking at? I've got a ton of questions. I'm excited to chat with Billy on the show later today. Let's keep it moving, guys. We've got our first guest here in six minutes. Got a few more things to talk about with you guys. We mentioned this early on. This is probably bigger than the FOMC meeting. I don't know if it's bigger than security ties working with Computer

Share, but uh it's going to be an eventful day. The the Nothing Ever Happens crew is putting putting their reputation on the line. Uh Google, Meta, Microsoft, and Amazon. I believe that's four out of the MAG seven are going to report earnings after the market closes today. Um, I'm not going to speculate, but uh I I do believe that we're seeing some risk taken off the board as a sort of hedge in preparation of these earnings calls. Uh, Google, Meta, Microsoft, Amazon. I mean, we see what happens when Nvidia announces earnings, right? The there's so much

weight in the Mag 7. I don't know. I don't have the number offhand, but uh, it'd be easy to find out. out. I want to say it's almost half, if not more than half, of the S&P is in the top seven equities, which is incredible. And so now we have more than half of those seven equities, which would account for, I don't know, maybe a third to the entire stock market is announcing earnings today. So obviously, this is going to have significant meaningful impacts on the market at large as a whole. We're going to basically be tell said to later today after the market closes, we're going to get earnings. Um I expect Hyperlquid to be a beneficiary here because a lot of these equities are

listed via HIP 3 on Hyperlid and so we're going to see some movement after hours. Um $12 trillion worth of market cap is going to be reporting on earnings within a 30 minute window. That's a lot of market cap. Um, and then obviously we've got uh the Fed interest rate decision at 2 PM and then oil prices surging toward $105 a barrel. I think we're seeing risk come off the table. We'll see how this shakes out and then we'll see risk enter back on the table depending on how these earnings calls go. But um obviously the entire market watches uh and kind of hangs in the balance here uh undoubtedly as we see earnings get launched. Very

very uh meaningful day here for the markets. Buckle up guys. We approach the month end close. We got the FOMC and we've got four out of the MAG 7 announcing earnings after the bell today. Let's see what's next. Um, yes, STRC, the stretch product that Sailor has had so much success with. I We had multiple people come on the show. We had Etherealize. We covered that clip. I've been preaching this. It just makes sense if Tom Lee has seen the success that Sailor has had with his stretch product, which I'm sure he has.

Uh it just makes sense that we see a stretch product from Tom Lee and Bitmine because Ethereum has uh yield natively baked in. If you guys are unfamiliar with Stretch, it's basically an 11% note that Sailor is uh is issuing to people uh to LP back capital so that Sailor can go buy Bitcoin. So uh Sailor issues like a note uh a bond effectively uh says I will pay you about 11% on your money. uh you give me the money, I'll give you 11% back at a time later and I'm going to use the money that you give me to go buy Bitcoin and that is how I'm going to go and finance the 11% that I'll pay you back. Uh for a long time he was able to uh he was able to raise money at 0% uh

because people just wanted the Bitcoin exposure. They wanted the lever bet on Bitcoin by buying Micro Strategy. Uh now has gotten a bit overextended. Uh but he's still having tremendous success with Stretch. Uh, it feels like Ethereum and Bitmine are ripe for an opportunity to issue a similar stretch like product. Let's play the clip. You see how successful STRC has been? Uh, when does Tom Le do this for Bit Miner? It's actually a much more compelling pitch because you get yield on your ETH, right? So, you can fund quite a bit. He's sitting on uh I think like 12 billion of ETH, right? And so

you call say 3% on 12 billion, 360 million uh on a 10% preferred. So you can fully subsidize close to 4 billion of ETH purchases and then there's obviously reflexivity there and all of that. So I feel like it's a very logical thing for him to do with how clean the capital stack is there and should be pretty bullish free if that can happen. If you see how >> so this is what we've got. Um man, it it does feel like there's a clean capital stack. Look, Sailor is issuing debt at 11%. He did less previously because there was demand for products at a lower APR. This is how these things work. Less demand, still

got a supply. You need to raise the price. And so, excuse me, you need to lower the price, which means raising the interest rate. Uh, and so Sailor did that. The the when they say the native interest rate embedded into Ethereum makes this an easier choice to do, they're talking about the staking rewards rate. Uh, there has been discussion lately about lowering this rate. I look, the inflation rate on ETH right now is less than 1%. I think it uh effectively, you know, there should be some demand at at less than 1%. I I I think we can probably leave the staking rate where it is. Um, obviously they're scaling the L1. You don't want to scale the L1 too

fast or else, you know, you're not going to end up triggering this burn, but less than 1% of inflation per year feels like a pretty reasonable value. Obviously, that's less than, you know, what we're seeing in the in the dollar world. So, feels like that's a pretty reasonable amount. And then what you have is that you have um this 3% yield. Bit mine can just issue that yield. They're going to be one of the largest capital intensive products in the world. Meaning that they're going to be driving so much revenue just by staking their ETH because ETH has this native revenue generation, this native yield embedded into it. They can just collect. All they have to do is put together a large

enough basket of ETH in which they're they're very much working on. I think they're nearing their target of 5% allocation in the network and so they are going to be uh they're going to be uh in for a wild ride here if they can issue this stretch product if they can buy more ETH and then they can also uh you know collect and have very secure staking rewards. I'm excited. You guys know me. I still believe in Ethereum. I tend to think that all these haters look I think the new L1s are the New York Stock Exchange alternative trading platforms. It's the NASDAQ coming on chain. It is all of these traditional brokers that are going to be launching their own equities, tokenized equities trading platforms. These are going to be

the new L1s. I still think when it comes to interoperability, when it comes to shared settlement, there needs to be a world. It's not the DTCC, guys. It's not the DTCC. Um, I am going to Consensus Miami. I'm going to be on the stage with Joe Luben. I know he's working with DTCC behind the scenes, but we're going to have he's also obviously pushing Ethereum as the shared settlement layer. Uh I I tend to believe we're going to see a lot more from Ethereum. People are just hating on it. I think they're hating on ETH, the asset. They're not hating on the chain. But guys, ETH isn't going anywhere. Sorry to sorry to break it to you. ETH isn't going anywhere. You got Anom calling for the destruction of

ETH. it it's not going anywhere. Uh let's go through a couple more uh couple more pieces of news here while we set up our guest in the back. We've got Sandeep, the head of Polygon Foundation. We've got Visa, the world's largest payment network, has now turned on Polygon Rails for its global stable coin settlement program. Uh Visa's partners can now move money instantly on Polygon. Uh this is pretty incredible. pretty incredible because we see how much Stripe and their whole payment network has pushed into Tempo. Uh the founders of Stripe are are pushing on this. They believe this is where uh the future is headed. Obviously, Visa has

their payments partnership network as well. Uh the names that are going to be settling include some of the biggest uh Mastercard Flutterwave Stripe Revolute, Black Rockck, and Visa. Pretty insane list of partners. Um, if anyone could do it, Sandeep could do it and he did it. Uh, and so that is pretty incredible to see. Big shout out to Sandeep. He was he was able to uh he was able to pull off what people were a little bit skeptical about uh when it came to the uh pivot from the general purpose rollup uh or chain that Polygon was not necessarily a rollup. Uh they said that they were going to be focusing on payments. It felt like they were behind. It felt like they were trying to

play the traditional fintech game. Uh but they've they've come out and uh Sandeep has successfully and Mark, shout out to Mark as well. Uh this is huge news from Sandeep and Mark and the entire Polygon uh the entire Polygon Foundation. So very very cool to see. Um do we have any more news? Maybe one more. Let's uh let's uh go to uh let's go to our our last piece of news here while we pull uh we pull our guest in from the green room.

We'll go to our last piece of news. But yeah, big shout out. Polygon has been been friends of the show. I'm sure we'll we'll get them on the show here relatively soon to talk about uh everything that has been going on in the payments world as of late. All right, our last piece of news here is from Lily, the Solana Foundation lead. Uh, she talked about the positive some culture. They've always been pretty open, tried to welcome the best builders, tried to cultivate a culture of open meritocracy and let the best builders win. That feels like the free market libertarian capitalistic society that we've built on chain, the one that we know and love. One of the

things that they focus on is always looking for positive sum games because it's easy to find the zero- sum games and bare markets. A lot of people are looking to see who they can take a longer term perspective with. Guys, that is one of the best things about bare markets. You you don't have people here making a quick buck. You got people here in the trenches. They're looking for long-term partners. They're looking to build something of value. And uh and that's why the rollup doesn't go anywhere in the bare markets. We build right through. But the only way out of a bare market is to go right through it.

So, shout out to Lily from the Solana Foundation. Uh I think we're ready for our first guest. Pretty incredible uh lineup for you guys today. Five guests and uh we're gonna we're gonna get into it. So, let's uh let's get into it. Let's bring up our first guest. Uh we've got Adrian from Portoino. Let's uh let's go ahead and bring him up. Adrian, welcome to the show, man. >> Hey, guys. Nice to meet you, Ruby. Absolutely. What's uh what's going on, man? It's uh it's a pleasure to see you. You're head of sales over there at Port Portoino Technology. Why don't you give us a little bit of background on Portoino? We'll we'll dig into what you guys are doing.

>> Sure. Um I mean, Portoino company founded in 2022. Basically, in 2021, most of the team was at Citadel Securities. They wanted to trade crypto, but crypto back then was still a bit regulatory wild west. So, Citadel was not too keen on doing it. The team decided to do it on their own. We raised the 50 mil led by Peter Teal, got regulated in the different jurisdiction, built all our tech, opened the client franchise in 2025 and um and yeah, basically like you know we we try to do like to bring HFT in terms of like cryptonative and to behave

as a elite boutique for for the market basically. >> Very cool. So you guys are a crypto native high frequency trade grade market maker focused on real liquidity. Now you know if we think back to the beginning uh you mentioned a lot of you guys were early at Citadel. You guys wanted to get into the crypto world start market making here now as a market maker you guys love volatility right don't and and early on in crypto there's a lot of volatility. Why did it not make sense for Citadel to come into the crypto world early on? I think you know like generally the volatility in um crypto is different than the volatility in traditional

markets. M >> so I used to work for an investment bank before and obviously when you had volatility whether it was up or down it was a marvelous moment for any traders on the market on crypto in crypto it's a bit different because I think you know like everyone is naturally long if you're in the ecosystem you're naturally long you know like your balance sheet is cryptodenominated you you know like market makers have models business models that work mostly if price goes up unless those market makers are behaving rogue. But that's not what decent market makers should do, let's say. Um,

so generally the volatility, the upside volatility is extremely beneficial in uh crypto for everyone. Downside volatility is painful for everyone. And it's also because downside volatility creates bankruptcy creates like a lot of struggle overall for the ecosystem. >> Mh. >> And that's not, you know, in a young market, the kind of market where you you can thrive if people around you are dying, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, it it makes sense because a lot of uh crypto traders are long, right? Just by the nature of this industry, still very early. Uh, and so because a lot of that is one-sided, you don't have a very healthy market structure like like you're saying. Um, speaking of market structure, I mean,

look, I I gotta ask you, you know, we we've seen people are still talking about 1010 like there was, you know, and they call it a few different ways. They call it a glitch on Binance. They call it auto deleveraging on Hyperlid. You know, they refer to some different things. Ultimately, there was this cascade of factors that ultimately all kind of fit together and led to the 1010 fiasco. Do you think we've recovered? H has did the market structure break? Is it now fixed or or where are we right now when it comes to the market structure from a market maker such as yourself? I mean I think there's a bit like a double um double factor when it comes to just like the market structure

and the liquidity in the market. First obviously like you need to think of what was the trigger and I think the trigger was clearly 10 10 and you clearly see that um on the markets in general for almost any market in particular the alcoin market the liquidity has been divided by double digits um from that moment you know like I think for most markets we're talking about like 30 to 50% of liquidity down from 1010.

So obviously you got this trigger but then you also have to think in in price you know like ultimately like the liquidity decreasing like you know if we if you quote in token terms the liquidity has not necessarily decreased in token terms on some markets but it has decreased in dollar terms because >> prices are down. Yeah. >> So if the price is down like obviously 30% since um 1010 you may still quote the same number the same quantity of token but because the the dollar value is down 30% naturally you have this drying up effect. So I

think there's a bit this double side where you do see 1010 as the trigger but there's a price effect behind that >> shows that liquidity has right up. >> Yeah. You know, another aspect to the market structure that we have more recently has been these ETFs. Um, I'm I'm seeing IBIT flows. I've also seen recently that there is extremely high funding that shorts are paying to go short on Bitcoin. You have to pay an extremely high funding rate. And so people are saying, why would you want to be short Bitcoin right now? Maybe they're, you know, very high conviction, but they have to pay such a high funding rate. Can you explain what is happening?

Are funding rates for Bitcoin shorts really this high? Is it is it just Bitcoin? And why is this the case? >> I mean I think you know generally like and we we were having this discussion earlier today with some clients you know but generally in crypto you will struggle to find people willing to sell puts or you know like to sell this kind of exposure you know. So going short or protecting your downside is very expensive is a very expensive trade overall in crypto by nature.

Why why would it be on Bitcoin? It's it's a harder one. You know I think that you know when we talk about alcoins in general you have to think about like the overall tokconomics. You have to think about like VCs and so on. Obviously you don't have this spot on Bitcoin. I do think that talking to a few high IEL guys in this industry, I think that a lot has changed with the quantum risk overall in Bitcoin and that you know a lot of the people that were or institutions that were like buying Bitcoin as an equivalent a digital equivalent of gold meaning a 0% risk asset. Now, even if

you price the quantum risk at like 1%. It's still not a zero risk asset anymore. >> Yeah. >> And so, I think it may have triggered, you know, also some I mean, first some selling, but also some people that are willing to, you know, edge also their flow. >> Yeah. Okay. So, if you're not, you know, paying so much attention to maybe the ETFs or or or funding rates, what are you paying most attention to? What are what are the metrics out there, the indicators that you're paying the most attention to right now >> in terms of the >> the digital asset landscape right now in terms of what what you guys are trading?

What indicators are you paying attention to? I mean obviously like you know we we look at just like the overall like option market the like future forward market prop market. Um what we have to look at more generally is also just you know like you have some indicators that are also like indicating you know like the the general like risk taking or the general like you know um the appetite I would say in the industry and this can be like very varied you know like obviously you can think about like the VC rounds you can think about like exchange listings you can see about like take a flow on exchanges is you can

just try to also understand what kind of players are you training against. Is it like systematic flow? Is it like um retail flow? What kind of who who's in the book, you know, >> and ultimately that gives usually a quite good um let's say um vision of uh what's going on in the market. I think that you know just generally like we also I mean we monitor also like a lot of the D5 metrics and you know we try to understand what's the activity out there um what people are willing to do or not do and just general emptiness you know like I

think that even for a company like our that is mostly active in centralized exchanges we do a bit of D5 but mostly on centralized exchanges We can't ignore like you know what happened to drift the whole cow situation so on like those things are obviously a big part of the environment. >> Mhm. >> And drive OTC flow drive specific requests and so on. So everyone is impacted right even if you're not directly into it. has uh has the recent hacks like Drift and and um you know Kelpdow, have they sort of put a bad taste in your mouth when it comes to

Hyperlid? I take it centralized exchanges you know like you said you're you're primarily trading there. Have you done any market making on Hyperlid before and after the hacks? So I mean we've been doing it in like small size you know like for us it's an area of growth and that's something we can scale but I think for I would say tried fight traders or for centralized uh traders going into defy you have to consider a new bunch of risk >> whether it's like hacking risk or you know you can just also consider that >> transparency is also a risk you know >> or you know different things that are not nec necessarily like um potential

risk let's say on your regular centralized venues. >> Yeah. >> So I I don't think that you know the I don't think it raised the question on whether we should do it or not. Uh we should definitely do it and we want to do it. >> I think the question is more like how to make sure we do it properly. Um I think it's very easy to go head down into it and you know just think that it will be a Binance-l like experience because anyway it's a centralized imit book. Um I think it's it's not.

>> Yeah. >> Obviously we have to to deal with those differences. >> Yep. and and you know recently we've seen Hyperlquid get significantly more traction and volume and open interest in the non-crypto assets. Uh HIT 3 has allowed Hyperlid to list oil and we've seen Hyperlid get 2% of global oil trades going through Hyperlid. This was incredible. Also, equities and preIPO assets like Anthropic and and others have all listed on a Hyperlquid. They're doing extremely well. It feels like sometime soon we're going to see the the non crypto assets on Hyperliders

the open interest and volume of crypto tokens that are, you know, making up the the volume and open interest on Hyperlid. as a market maker and you see more of these assets become tokenized, tokenized equities, you know, you you're seeing a lot more of these digital assets trade 247. How are you reacting to these these quality assets, these equities that become, you know, tradable on something like Hyperlid? What what is your reaction to this as a market maker? I mean the the demand for that is huge you know like it comes from protocols, it comes from centralized exchanges, it comes from all over the place and I think the trend is very clear on that. I

think from a market maker perspective like it can be a tricky one because the pricing on trading hours is pretty straightforward, right? It's like it's as if you pray as if you trade with an oracle like you have a a price feed and you're just like okay so this is what the market is somewhere else so I should just like basically replicate that and if I manage to make the spread between this venue and this one I'll make money you know >> I think the big question is more like what happens in the after hours and who you trade against um you know Like I think one of the big

question that I personally raised um seeing those volumes is it's definitely not retail retail you know like so there's definitely institutional or um Iet worth let's say um flow that is going to that is this flow um non-informed or at least as informed as us or is it inside a flow And I think that's um one of the big question that you need to answer the moment you start trading on after hours nonkyc etc venues because it can also attract a lot of people as

you can see on poly market you know so like all those insiders that are winning uh the bets you know >> right >> so it can be related to that, you know, and so obviously the market works when everyone is on the same level of information >> and if you start trading against an intern that is in the almost straight, >> yeah, [laughter] >> it becomes much harder, you know, to to know if your pricing is right.

>> Catrini analyst three lore runs deep. Um, makes sense. Yes. Um, how how do you know this isn't retail flow on on on these exchanges? Like what s what signals to you like, oh, this has to be institutional or high netw worth individuals? I just think it's more like, you know, past a certain size, you know and past a certain size, it's hard to imagine that, you know, the >> if it was just retail flow, like probably all our friends would be all over it and on their phone like 247, you know, to trade like on retail sizes, you know, like those assets. So when you reach a share of the global volume let's

say that is like so significant you know that there is some systematic flow and if it's just systematic flow like you know algorithmic trading companies I I don't think it creates that much of an issue. Mhm. >> I think what you have to be mindful of is always more like, okay, what's my pricing and is my pricing correctly reflecting um everything I can know and am I trading against someone that obviously, you know, is more informed than I am.

>> Right. Right. And you know, Adrian, in general, given that, you know, you guys are proficient market makers, you know, backed by Peter Theal and, you know, you have a lot of friends that that came from from Citadel. You know, in your experience, I'm curious. Do you do you think trading is a zero someum game? [snorts] >> It tends to be, you know, it's like you always need a winner and a loser on a trade. um unless uh it doesn't move, unless you're trading a stable coin and you just uh consider that your cost of trading is the the fee, but the moment the asset is moving, I believe that there's always someone that does better

than someone else. >> Got it. And you know, it does seem like, you know, in the uh in the token world, like in the crypto digital asset world, it feels like that's true. It it feels like, you know, there's insiders, they win, retail losses. it it does feel like that. Um maybe that's because there's a long bias uh in you know the digital asset world but in equities it feels like well these companies are doing doing real work right like they have customers these customers pay them for services or products these businesses generate revenue and then the value you know acrru it feels like it's positive sum it feels like the customers you know they get the service or product they get what they

pay for and then the company makes money and then everyone's happy it's not zero sum. It feels like maybe crypto is zero sum but the equity world is positive sum. Do you see it the same way? >> I mean that's the whole debate between being a utility and a security, right? [laughter] I I think that you know like when the whole I mean probably from 2017 and even more from 2021 why those token got so much attention it's because obviously I mean there was a whole part of irrationality and chaos which is pretty common to any new market >> but also because people were seeing it as a proxy to the performance of

something which ultimately doesn't give you any right you know but if you were a VC if you were an angel if you were like even a retail investor or whatever and and you were like buying a whole bunch of token about a protocol you believe is the right one you you were making money on the fact that this protocol has built a product and has hype and users and and so on because you know like the demand was just very high and was much higher than actually like what back then people were selling and so for everyone it was a good proxy of the success of what they were buying at some point obviously like I think and

it's it took you know like um a bare market it took tokconomics to hit you know like if you think most tokconomics we're talking about >> let's say two to four years for tokens to be fully released and so on >> like people realize that first like tokens were not giving them any right. So you could have like a founder that was like running away with the money. Um they were also like realizing that you know like even if you were creating some buyback programs and so on like it was still not like being entitled to a dividend or being entitled to you know the right to say something to the board of a company kind of. And I think that just generally

you know like in the current market we're more like paying the grid of the different stakeholders than anything else. Like if you think about like a few years ago um you know everyone VCs um investors exchanges market makers probably other type of companies as well around the projects everyone and projects too were making a lot of money on the fact that there were like retails that were getting in >> and you know the only one of the only things that exchanges were monitoring for listing was the number of Twitter

followers. So that so at some point I think the retailers also understood that you know like they were used as an exit liquidity and that there was not a value offering. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was a pretty unsustainable game that the token world was playing for quite a while. Um and then obviously that became more public as we had people like you know Kobe putting together the papers around low float high FTV. You know the incentives were such that no one wanted to talk about this because you know if you got in early farm the points you were able to do okay. Retail was able to make a little bit of money. VCs were able to make a lot of money. Every private investor was able to make a lot of

money. And so it took like kind of this unincentivized person to come in and kind of expose what was really going on here. I'm curious as as we wrap up, we've only got a couple of minutes left. What are the assets that you think are most attractive? Not financial advice, but just things that your indicators, your market making techniques are signaling to you, hey, these things might be uncorrelated. This might be something to watch. What has caught your eye? what's been most exciting on your radar as of lately >> in the crypto in general or >> yeah crypto but also broadly like if there's you know commodities or utilities or equities that have caught your eye as well.

>> I mean I think you know in crypto right now it's all about quality. So you know like you have to think about like the product that I mean about the protocols that actually have a product that actually have users generate revenue and so on. I think that's the only like sustainable way of looking at it. when it comes to the general market. I mean, you know, like I I think that US equities, you know, like you are you are under Trump that is doing everything he can to have a Fed chair that, you know, will cut the rates and >> you know, like to have the equities that are like skyrocketing. So obviously like S&P right now is uh and are doing like pretty well. Um, so I think it's the

easy one and then you know like I feel commodities is more requires a bit more understanding of the drivers of the supply and demand compared to just buying an Apple stock. But obviously there's a lot going on on the equity side whether we're talking about like energy or or metals especially. So, so to someone that is willing to understand, you know, like uh the the drivers of those um communities, there's definitely a lot going on right now and it's worth looking at.

>> Absolutely incredible. Uh Adrian, thank you so much for joining us. Uh it it really is a pleasure. I feel like there's opportunities out there if you know the right places to look and you guys are doing a great job of uh of looking in the right places. So Adrian, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Yeah, we we'll see you next time. Thanks Adrian. >> Bye. >> All right, guys. Well, we just continue to blitz through the best in the business. You guys just heard from a Peter Theelbacked market maker uh about everything that he is seeing when it comes to the the right indicators to take a look at, the right assets to watch and then obviously in general like I I I like to get kind of philosophical to be honest with you guys. Uh is

trading a zero- sum game? It really does feel like in the [snorts] equities world, but also increasingly in the crypto world, you know, if there are real businesses with real customers, they're happy to get the service, the product that they pay for, businesses happen to make money on that. Um, however, if you have, you know, tokens that are just praying on, you know, fake user metrics, they're selling that to centralized exchanges, you know, then you get uh insiders making a ton and retail is just getting shafted. that's not a real business. That's not a real product or service. And so obviously we've got uh we've got a different scenario as it comes to, you know, positive sum zero sum between equities and tokens. Um something that I

anticipate will continue to play out as we get uh deeper and deeper into value acrual on chain. And so coming up next, we've got Sherem uh general counsel at Trust Wallet. I think the uh the title is getting a little cut off there. So, we're going to go ahead and fix that. But absolute pleasure to chat with Adrian. Next up, we've got Sherem. Let's go ahead bring him up. We're we're going to be chatting about Trust Wallet. >> Sherem, welcome to the show, man. Pleasure to have you. >> Hey. Hey. [clears throat] Thank you for having me.

>> Absolutely, man. It's your first time on the show. Um we've uh we've been friends with Trust Wallet here for a while. Uh and so I believe you're you're coming at us from London. how how you guys doing on on the other side of the pond there? >> Yeah, really good. Thank you. Um we're uh just celebrating the integration of Hyperlid. So that's um >> something that that that that going on today. But otherwise, yeah, it's uh it's pretty good. >> Very cool. And so tell us a bit about the Hyperlquid integration. Um is it full-fledged? You got every asset at your disposal all within the Trust Wallet interface?

>> Yeah, exactly. So we we've we've gone for a um full integration so they our users will have access to um the whole suite of assets available in in Hyperlid. >> Very cool man. Well uh I'd love to understand a little bit more about the broader strategy. You know when you guys are starting to incorporate more of you know some of the distribution channels that are available for assets. You bring a lot of that deeper into the stack for Trust Wallet. You know, we've debated a long time fat application thesis or fat fat protocol thesis. And it seems like the sweet spot is a fat wallet thesis, which everyone loves a fat wallet, right? And so, you know, what what we found is that those who own the user, those who own the relationship with the

end customer, that is who ultimately is able to, you know, kind of monetize first, but then also serve them the best. I'm curious for you, is the goal to build this financial super app? like is that the ultimate goal and then ultimately provide everything that you can everything under the sun to your users or or how do you think about this? >> Yeah, I mean um there's quite a lot quite a lot there to unpack to be honest. It's um you you've got like I I think crypto's definitely moved from the different thesis that you've mentioned.

So you've got the uh fat protocol thesis, the fat app thesis. Um the fat wallet thesis is something that obviously is close to our hearts. Um we we we see ourselves as a interface technology provider, a neutral platform. So in that respect um it serves our interests to integrate with as many uh crypto applications as we can. Um, so in that sense, um, you're you're you're absolutely right. The aim of the game is is is to get sticky users, um, and be able to, um, g give them access to as much of web 3 as

possible. And now increasingly as our worlds are colliding and merging over the past couple of years in particular um we're seeing this cross into the web two uh arena as well. So so we've got now applications that are looking at that are coming in from web 3 and then going into web two and vice versa. >> Yeah. And so what is what does that look like as you guys enter the web two world? Because you know obviously this has kind of been the talk of the town has been the convergence. It's been, you know, okay, we're going to go, we're going to unlock a lot of the the internet of value. A lot of these fintech are now going to get access to ultimately provide a lot of these permissionless financial services uh

that we were, you know, iterating on in the web 3 world. It feels like now we kind of go we don't go backwards, but we try to bring the best of both worlds, right? like what what is it from the web two world that really sticks out to you that you want to incorporate into the entire trust wallet stack? >> I actually really liked the way that you what you said there about kind of we're not we're not going backwards. We're we're trying to get the best of both worlds. I I do think that there's something there like you know if if if I think about um why I joined crypto and I think some of the people in crypto would be looking at our sector as like almost like a counterculture movement

>> and so they they may they may be looking at the the entry into of of tradi and thinking ah this is this is not what we wanted. um you there's a whole kind of stream of of of our culture that does talk like that and I think the way that you phrased it, the way that you're thinking about it is is exactly right. It's like well what what can we borrow from from uh web 2 and uh the incumbents in the financial sector and learn from them. Um I think I think crypto is the the the the philosophical principles that we stand that stand underneath crypto are um principles of freedom um self-custody

decentralization feed into that and um ultimately self- sovereignty um for for me we should try and maintain that with the crypto culture And borrowing from web two I guess it would be things around to be honest we have to concede like there is a robustness in the infrastructure that they've built out they they they've had longer u for sure but uh you know my my background is in uh banking and I'm familiar with how big banks operate and and the um processes procedures governance frameworks that they've put in place. I think there's a lot that we can learn from what they did. If at the very least

uh learn learn how to navigate and um coordinate a a uh a mass market, which I think we are now. I think I think crypto is no longer a niche. It's it's it's definitely mainstream. >> Yeah. And I I I've always liked to say I mean it it feels like blockchain is the mass coordination tool. This is the mechanism that coordinates not just humans but also agents um better than any other technology because of its trustlessness and its its rules that it's been able to codify. There's no referee. There's no central party saying this is good, this is bad. This is what it is and it is just the ultimate arbitrator and it's able to coordinate

people and users and actors in such a way uh that is just entirely fair. Now, you guys have been able to amass 220 million human users. Uh, I think I'm getting that I think I'm getting that right. Um, and so I'm curious how you prepare for what a lot of people are thinking about as the next wave of users, the AI users. Um, we don't have to go too deep into this rabbit hole, but it feels like every company has to have an AI strategy these days. Now that you've been able to build out such a network of human users, how do you start to augment, you know, machine to mach is it, you know, is it agentic commerce?

Agentic payments probably how it starts. Then you have agentic commerce, you just kind of slowly open this up. It feels like at a certain point I'm just going to use my agent for everything. I'm going to be on a phone call with my agent. Hey, go trade this per on Trust Wallet. like I how do I start to interact with the onchain economy in an agentic first world? >> I mean, yeah, I I guess to be honest, that's a million-dollar question, right? Like if if we had the answer to that, then um yeah, we would have probably solved a lot of things by now. I think the I don't I don't mean to put you on the spot here, but I I guess what I'm what I'm trying to get at is, you know, kind of coming back to the fat wallet

thesis, right? like you guys own the relationship with the uncustomer right now. It's not, you know, people thought it was going to be the apps, then they thought it was going to be the protocols. You don't you don't want to lose that moat, right? And it feels like if people are using their LLM terminal, just a chatbot in order to be their interface into the onchain economy. Well, where does where does the wallet layer fit into that? >> Yeah, I mean, again, good question. I I I I think I think that um if you think about the some of the work that the industry the sector has been doing in terms of abstracting away problems that users have in interfacing with different protocols, different blockchains,

bridging and and all sorts of things. AI doesn't care about that. AI doesn't care about the UI layer. It doesn't care about the colors you use or you know that kind of thing. So, it can be as complicated as you can make it and as long as the AI has a way to navigate through your system, you're you're you're fine. Um, so it's definitely a different mindset in terms of thinking about how agents will interact with wallets and how users plus agents will interact with wallets.

I think you're going to have layers. I think that, you know, the way that we're going about this is is is is in a mindful way for a number of reasons. I mean, you're talking you're talking to the general council of trust. So, so there there's obviously some guard rails that I'm going to be putting around um the business and what they can and can't do. >> Understandably, [laughter] >> the um the fact is though that just like any emerging technology, it es and flows. We saw this happen with technology back in the 2000s. We saw this happen in crypto. We're seeing it happen with AI where there's a stage of euphoria.

People think that AI is the answer to all things to all people and can do anything and everything and then it the whole kind of edifice breaks and comes crashing down. So there there's an element of of of of that where at the minute, you know, we're talking about things which seem literally incredible. Um, and and we we're mindful of uh where AI the potential of AI, >> but at the same time being practical. So, we we um we have a uh what what what I guess you'd call a research and um development function, which would be looking into many things around

um many things around what AI is capable of doing in the future. So there' be kind of the the innovative layer and that would be looking at what the world would look like if you had agents just doing everything and users pretty much just going off and doing their own thing and not not really uh engaging as much as you you would expect as what as as we do today. Um at the same time we have a very practical and pragmatic view on what agents and AI is capable of doing.

And right now we think that there is certainly uh a need to have users in the mix. >> So it's it's users uh m much like how you would use chat GPT or claude today. You're not going to just give away your whole life to your your your agent. No matter how complicated you've made the system, um you're not just going to outsource everything to that to that system. you want to be it, you want to be involved and that's how I think we're looking at it as well.

>> Yeah, I I mean certainly it it is still very early. Um and it still remains to be seen. I I absolutely right now it's just not practical. It's not safe. Uh it's too dangerous to give away private keys, trading accounts, full access to some of these things. People are experimenting. I'm sure you saw, you know, oh, I can make a prediction market bot with an agent and, you know, be the next gazillionaire. I I think that thesis fell through pretty quickly. Um, I I I'm also just curious, you know, as general counsel, like how do I mean, it takes a brave man to be a general counsel for for a crypto company? Like, how [laughter] where do you where do you draw the lines? Like, you know, when it

comes to some of these things, are you informing, you know, research and development? um you know, hey, this could get us into some trouble uh when it comes to the hyperlquid integration. Like, how do you structure and put some of these deals together? >> That's an interesting question because it it it really varies. You know, you've got some some deals that are they're very they're on the face of it, they're innovative and and and from a business and commercial angle, they are very they're in innovative, but intrinsically you're looking at established old-fashioned oldfashioned is the wrong word, established regulations. Uh so if you think about the payments landscape, if

you're looking at on-ramps, there's there's from a legal perspective, there's nothing really going on there. Then you look at something like hyperlquid. Um the the the the fundamental nature of the assets that you're dealing with is something that um we're familiar with. So so in that respect uh you you you kind of know what you're doing, you can figure it out fairly easily. Then you go into c certain other areas and I think I think AI is a really good example of this where that is a little bit more green field or you know blue sky um thinking in terms of well h how what guardrails

do we want to put around here? These are the types of conversations that we we saw and actually crypto folk are very familiar with this sort of conversation. We we we we we had all these um we went through this thinking process when we were thinking about um ICOs and what it meant for tokens and Dows and trying to really wrestle with securities regulations and thinking through okay well I I I I understand the securities regulations and and I understand where they're coming from and what they're trying to protect and what they're trying to do but at the same time I I think there's something going on here which which is valuable and which can actually genuinely have value to society

and maybe we should experiment with it. We should push it a little bit further. I think tokens is a fascinating area in that respect because you've really got this new mechanism which we're still figuring out which is effectively how like um a a mass governance system. So, so if you if you abstract if if if you remove the securities features, the equity links and and and all of that ultimately you have a way of communicating with and I use communicating in a very broad sense, but you have a way of interacting with your user base. It's a completely different mechanism or methodology, the the the the token system. Similarly with AI,

it's a completely different environment where you know you mentioned uh do we want to give AI keys? Do we want to give them access to our wallet? Well, precisely what what are the guardrails you're going to put around there? You have to think through the worst case scenarios. You have to think through guardrails and um an ability to step in uh kill switches and things of that sort, >> right? So we we're we're crypto's crypto is pretty good at thinking through this sort of stuff. I mean we're already seeing uh conversations happening in the AI space where we're we're talking about okay is this is this TE is this uh smart contracts is this

something else like what what are the mechanisms that that that are that are underpinning that underly the AI infrastructure? >> Yeah, absolutely. I I I think, you know, we're going to continue to see how this plays out because it feels like every week Claude just oneshots another, you know, set of software services. Um, we've also seen how, you know, Google has come out with some some things. Um, and so we're just going to continue to see how this plays out on the AI front. Um, I'm also curious because, you know, the it feels like the world is kind of it's consolidating as more of these these deals get done. Um, and so I take it you're probably you're probably up on

a lot of the regulation, you know, the SEC and CFTC regulation that's coming out now. As we see more of this clarity act, these kinds of things, it it feels like once again we're going to get kind of like these industry components, these categories, meme coins, and some of these things that don't quite have business models, they kind of get stripped away like, you know, the it they kind of like don't make it to the next cycle. What do you think of kind of the the regulation that's coming out now? How h who do you think is positioned to be the best benefactor of something like the Clarity Act or just generally more regulation coming in the space?

>> I mean the obvious answer is stable coins, >> but I I hesitating because I' I'd like to give you a more thoughtful answer. I I think I think I think there's definitely a tension with within crypto and it's been there from the start which is the there's there's the the obvious infrastructure and technology play and the utility of the technology that we've that we're currently still uh developing.

And then and then there's the the other side which which uh kind of goes into the speculative uh trading and um maybe maybe a better way of phrasing it would be the play side. So people experimenting and doing things and and just seeing how far they can stretch the technology >> and the culture. Uh which I think is is is relevant. Like I I personally thought the NFT wave was was fascinating because you know people were swapping JPEGs of sorry no one shouldn't say JPEGs swapping NFTs of block.

>> Yeah. >> Um and and it's just fascinating that that that that people were attributing value to such things. It's it it's it's it's it for me I love philosophy and so for me it was a real really really interesting window into how humans attribute value to objects and to things >> and I think that NFTTS have um kind of fallen away but ultimately the the key the key point about an NFT which was that it was it was nonf fungeible is is is was quite a unique and important thing and and you're seeing it come through in different aspects of crypto

again as an infrastructure layer that you don't really see at the uh at the user layer. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of picking up on that thread then, you know, the the culture uh and philosophy of crypto has changed significantly over the years. It's gotten it feels like it's gotten more mature. it's gotten more institutionalized and and this could have very deep implications to the product of the work and the product of the industry as it becomes more institutional I' I'd imagine that it becomes less innovative and a lot of that innovation might pivot into something like AI that is what you know this industry has been built on it's been built on free marketism it's

been built on you know some of the libertarian ideals of hey you know it. No one's going to take my money. No one's going to hold on to it. Not your keys, not your coins. You've got to come take it from me. Everyone should be, you know, access censorship resistance, a lot of these things. But then we've got hacks, right? And then we've got, you know, lowquality assets. And so we mature, right? We have institutions come into the space. We have due diligence on the heels of Kelpdow, Drift, Hacks. We've got more conversations about circuit breakers and KYC and risk controls and freezing assets from stable coins all the way through to arbitrum. Basically just

seizing via the single sequencer. And that did feel like the right decision, but it felt like it contradicted some very deep beliefs that a lot of us have had in the industry for a long time. We I I I take it that we don't want to just rebuild the system that we've already have where we identified a lot of problems. And so, you know, we we find ourselves at a crossroads where ultimately I think we do want to bring the best of both worlds together, but we don't want to sacrifice a lot of our ideals. And so I'll just kind of I'll this won't be a question, but I'll just kind of offer my two cents here, which is that ideally we get, you know, a lot of the infrastructure that we've been building for a long time that maintains censorship resistance. Uh we we we

maintain permissionlessness and and you know, peer-to-peer finance, but we also embed some risk controls and we get high quality assets. I don't know about you, like I look, I love art. NFTs were very cool. I wasn't much of a memecoin guy. Like meme coins were funny. If they're going up and you get in early, great. It's gambling. Sure. But it feels like high quality assets in terms of, you know, both non-speculative like income products could be, you know, uh, treasuries, it could be private credit.

As long as these things are safe, could also be tokenized equities that come on 247. We get more markets, we get more information, we can make better decisions on the rails that we've been building for a long time. Just to paint and kind of put a cap on this, the example would be, hey, if we can get, you know, Apple, Nvidia, Amazon, Microsoft stocks into a borrow against them, earn some yield on them, kind of layer on some financial products. It feels like, and we could do that in a permissionless way. It feels like that would be best case scenario.

We don't sacrifice our ideals in the rails, but we do get high quality assets. I'm curious do you think you know what is missing from that vision and and and you know where where do you stand how do you react to react to you know the way in which we've been building the rails the trajectory of the industry and and then obviously the the incoming assets from more institutional players >> I think I I mean I agree with everything you said the I guess I guess the the the only other perspective that I that I might be able to add to to to to what you said was around um the global nature of of of

crypto. And what I mean by that is the the types of things that you described, the the transactions or the strategies that you were describing are something which I would um say fit quite nicely into um first world countries and into established uh individuals. The crypto does in some ways represent an um an avenue for someone to play around and and and and um achieve something which they may not otherwise necessarily have been able to do. And I don't mean through the hyper gambling of memecoins.

Like I mean there's there's an argument of well if you're not kind of born into a certain certain status now a certain kind of financial bracket now it's incredibly difficult to to move your way up. I think there is a reality to that statement but that's that's not what I was getting at. What what what I meant was the efficiency play that crypto brings the table is equally applicable in those scenarios. So if I if I was to remit funds to Pakistan or um somewhere else then there's there's um it's easier for me to do that through my wallet than traditional architecture.

Even though traditional architecture through fintex like they're doing phenomenal and actually it's becoming really easy and very quick but that was the edge that we always had over the traditional finance world. Um I and I think we there was there was a moment last year in particular where I was worried that we were losing that edge and maybe losing the will to fight. But to be honest, recently I have seen a resurgence and I don't know exactly what it is, but there's there's been a few things that have been going on that have have just happened to happen at the same time. uh in including a renewed fight within Trust Wallet where you know we feel like there's that that there is

something that we can achieve here and there is something that we want to do and we want to be part of this movement in crypto and like I think I think that's that's that that for me is the most bullish thing that's that for me is something which I think means that we're we're not going anywhere. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean you can also see this in things like Zcash. I think you know like it feels like the privacy like these these things are and I had someone say this to me and it's so simple like it it's almost too simple but like it's a good reminder. Someone was like hey remember these are these are cryptocurrencies. These are cryptographic currencies. And so like Bitcoin because it's been oified hasn't

changed at all. Cryptography has evolved. We have ZK and FHE and quantum resistance and all these things. Bitcoin hasn't changed. It's just no longer the best crypto. It's it just doesn't have the best cryptography anymore. How can it be the best cryptocurrency? And I think a lot of those ideals, the the the the cipher punk ideals, a lot of those original ethics actually do show up in the stable in the in the Zcash thesis. Um, and I think there is still that cohort of people that are here. They still build with this in mind. and they're kind of reshaping the the rankings, if you will, where where they're allocating when it comes to, you know Bitcoin Zcash Ethereum smart

contract landscape, you know, the the sort of state of affairs is ever changing. Where where do you find yourself within these talks at at Trust Wallet? You know, like uh the more conservative, the more innovative side. >> Definitely the more innovative side now. uh we've we've we've um really I think we're we're we're going through a journey. We have um pushed ourselves to be more innovative, more and more on the edge of of crypto. I think you'll see that this year. I think you'll see us doing more and more in that space. The ultimately the the the position that we have

remains as a technology interface. And so for us it's really about trying to understand these technologies from the perspective of what can we make available to users and otherwise it's it's users interacting with them in a in a self-custodial manner. So um so so so yeah like you know thinking about the privacy coins thinking about private privacy first transactions uh and again it's it's it's a similar sort of thought process and and and framework that we have in place for the the AI space that we were talking about a little earlier.

>> Yeah, absolutely. Um I'm I'm glad you mentioned self-custody. I mean, this is also a big an important pillar uh to what what we've been talking about here today. Shm, appreciate you you taking the time, spending some time with us today. Uh, everyone can can go download Trust Wallet um and trade Hyperlid Pers right in the interface, right? >> That's right. Yeah, exactly. >> There we go. Well, thank you so much, Sherem. We'll uh we'll see you again soon. Appreciate you coming on. >> Thank you. Thank you. Have a good one. >> You too. Thanks, man. All right, that was Sherem, guys. Trust Wallet. Um, obviously one of the biggest wallets in the game. 200 million plus users. Uh, pretty insane numbers that they've put

up over the years. They've been around a long time. Uh, very cool to see them continuing to build. Now, Hyperlid uh is integrated and so the word is Hyperlid. There's really not much more to say. You guys can go uh trade Hyperlquid Pers there on Trustwallet. Uh we really appreciate Shereem spending some time with us. Our next guest is coming up in just a moment. Uh it is going to be Patrick from Serotonin. Uh Patrick is the head of research at Serotonin. Uh his Twitter is solo funk.

It's a pretty baller uh Twitter handle. It's pretty pretty cool. Uh we're going to be talking about the state of onchain credit. These guys uh they launched a report. Um they also uh launched a onchain credit market map uh which is very cool. And so we're going to be talking all about this. Uh let's go ahead and bring Patrick up and we'll get into the state of onchain credit. There he is. Patrick, welcome to the show man. >> Hey Robbie, thanks for having me. >> Absolutely. uh head of research over at Serotonin. Um what it what has it been like uh just uh internally at Serotonin over over some recent recent months

before we get into this uh state of onchain credit report? >> Yeah, it's been it's been great. Um you know, first off, I want to say fan of the rollup since the the pre-NEO finance days when I was >> uh nerding out about layer 1's, layer 2's, interop, and all this. Um but yeah joined serotonin as director of research uh two months ago now and have been heads down working on this state of onchain credit report um hard launching serotonin research with it going live a lot of our partners work in the space so we wanted to um put in the work map the entirety of the space and and put out a killer report what we believe is the most comprehensive one out there on onchain credit >> epic well it's very very cool to see um

I you know, you've got a uh a hitchhiker's guide to onchain credit uh and then you've got the state of onchain credit report. Are these these one and the same? >> Uh similar totally different content. Um so the the thing is with this research we made a market map uh with over 165 players spanning onchain credit across four broader categories. Uh those are credit issuance, capital allocation, infrastructure and risk management. And so the article basically explains our methodology, our our mental models for each of those four categories and then 19 subcategories within them. Uh reasoning for inclusion and then the report dives deeper into data and

different insights across the stack. >> Very cool. And uh before we dig into the report itself, why don't you just give a quick shout out? Where can people find this report uh if they want to follow along as uh as they listen here? Yeah, I would love to have you guys check it out and and and hear what you guys think. Very easy to find it. You just type in se.ro on your mobile or your your desktop and it should be the very first thing on the top of the page. So se.ro. >> Beautiful. All right. Very very cool. Um so we are going to get into the state of onchain credit. Um just got a couple of stats here uh that I I wanna I want to talk to you about Patrick. Um, I see

that the onchain credit market grew 22x to over 5 a.5 billion in 2025 amid 300 billion plus in stable coins. Has this been the primary driver of growth in onchain credit? Has been has it been a result of the stable coin boom and then now we're starting to build out kind of the the economic functions around stable coins. um partially. So what's leading it is the yields that onchain credit offers.

Um but I'll take a step back in terms of the onchain credit growth. You know that's a 22x increase in 2025. Real world assets as you know are growing at a rapid clip across all all the different asset classes within RWAS. But onchain credit was the fastest growing one uh outside of stable coins in 2025. So rapid growth and what onchain credit is doing is introducing exogenous yield that's uncorrelated with the broader crypto markets. So you know historically money market activity and just crypto in general has been kind of siloed depending on the the broader market four-year cycle and all this. Um but onchain credit is bringing exogenous yields that are higher than benchmark

rates like your average DeFi uh lending rate or three-month US Treasury bills. Um, and that's consistent with traditional private credit as well, which has grown incredibly since uh the global financial crisis in 2008 from up to two trillion now projected to grow to 4 trillion in 2030. And it's a similar story there that private credit introduces yield that is uncorrelated with the broader equity and uh markets uh averaging around 9% yield and it's a similar story in onchain credit. Yeah, it's pretty incredible. I mean, you know, in here you have uh stable coins uh like we said at 300 billion. Uh that

that charts up and to the right. And then we look at private credit projected to double to 4 trillion by 2030. That's an incredible pace of growth. Um I feel like people are a little bit confused by private credit. you know they hear on the one hand this is adding a lot of assets on chain as we tokenize a lot of these private credit instruments this is what's driving higher yields it is exogenous right where you know previously you had DeFi summer a lot of the yields it was just token emissions and and you know leveraging up rehypothecation until you were so wound so tight you know that you know yeah you were getting

some double digit yields but the likelihood of that sustaining over time was very very low and so that was endogenous yield back in DeFi summer. Now it feels like we have something that's more sustainable. It's coming from the outside. You know, it's exogenous to the DeFi industry itself. But then on the other hand, we hear quite a bit about private credit that doesn't sound so promising. Can you just help kind of shed some light on what private credit is these days? Are they just dumping private head uh dumping private credit on our heads because you know it's easy exit liquidity on chain or is there like some real sustainable substance to to this asset class?

>> Yeah, there's there's definitely sustainable substance to it. Um, I think the the FUD of the traditional private credit um fears in terms of the redemption halts and and prices dropping is overblown when it comes to um equating that with onchain credit. Uh, of course, traditional private credit is in a bit of turmoil right now. A lot of funds are halting redemptions. Uh, prices of publicly traded BDCs have have dropped up to 40% in some cases. Um and and so to define private credit, it's non-bank lenders. So institutions that underwrite and lend to uh for for a variety of different reasons. I mean it

can be to a company, it can be to finance an asset. Um and so that is what private credit is and what's being tokenized. Yes, there are some institutional funds that are coming on chain like Janice Henderson's JA or Apollo's Acred. Um, but those there's about eight or so tokenized institutional credit funds that are on chain right now. Uh, so the exposure is pretty limited and the FUD happening in traditional private credit has not extended in onchain. In my opinion, it's it's as of right now the exposure is is quite low. Um what's exciting from my perspective is the onchain origination side of things. So a lot of folks may be

familiar with Maple Finance. Uh that falls under that bucket leads the onchain origination category by extending credit to overcolateralized institutional borrowers. Um but there's a variety of different protocols that are doing similar things. uh figure is with their hasher protocol tokenizing the opportunity to provide capital that is then extended as credit for home home equity lines of credit uh helocks that's yielding around 8% um there's also the infy category so financing physical infrastructure USDA just launched their token a lot of hype around that daylight is another one so there are tokenized institutional credit funds coming on

chain but there's A lot happening on the onchain origination side as well. >> Got it. Okay. And so you're pointing to these and I'm gonna I'm gonna try to find these on the market map. All right. I see figure here. All right. Tokenized offchain credit. Uh we've got Figure. Uh it looks like we've got Rockaway X and a couple others. And then you point to the onchain origination as well. And this is Maple. Um and and some of the others that you mentioned here. And so I just want to make sure that I understand the difference here on on the offchain side.

You have someone like Figer. They're going out and they're sourcing demand for credit because people want a home equity line of credit on their home. And then what we're seeing is that we have pools of capital onchain and then we're drawing from those pools of capital providing that capital to someone offchain in that case. Is that that's correct? And then >> yeah. >> Yeah. [clears throat] >> And then on the onchain side, it's the reverse. We have someone offchain that is lending to someone onchain. So Maple sources demand from different onchain protocols. They might be looking for some sort of credit. And so you have an on off-chain company with their own balance sheet. Maybe they've got some cash sitting around. They can bring that

cash onchain and lend it out to someone uh that is looking to to borrow it from Maple onchain. >> Uh you've got most of it. Um I'll clarify something. So on the the tokenized offchain credit side, uh you got that side right. So Figure is using blockchain as a vehicle to uh improve their systems and save cost. So by tokenizing the actual helocks, they're able to save uh about 120 basis points uh in cost per loan. Uh so that's making their business a lot more efficient. Um, Falcon X and Rockaway X are also extending credit offchain and onchain capital is uh able to take advantage of

that opportunity by lending to them onchain. So, Pareto um has vaults where you can deposit capital that then goes to Falcon X and Rockco who extend credit to off-chain uh borrowers that they underwrite. Um and then on the onchain origination side you are pooling onchain capital and extending it onchain. So Maple Finance anyone can deposit and and mint syrup USDC USDT and then that capital is used to extend credit like you say to offchain borrowers with uh cryptonative collateral backing that credit. Um, hashtra is is similar where you users deposit funds and those that capital is pulled

and used by figure and other um helock originators to extend credit off offchain but the the pooling of the capital is happening uh onchain. >> Got it. Okay. Um is there one of these categories one out of the two that you think are you know more poised for growth? Where where do you see more opportunities onchain or off-chain origination? >> Um I would say onchain. You know I'm a I'm a cryptonative guy. I get excited about the the very cryptonnative uh protocols and so that is the biggest category. You see it with 23 different players and um I expect it to continue to grow. There's a lot of exciting protocols out there um on the payment finance side. for example, credit coupe

pooling capital to uh finance rain and and uh the credit cards that they are they are extending. So that's backed by the the receivables by folks using those stable coins uh or those uh credit cards. Uh Tix is providing financing for event venues. So trying to disrupt ticket master. Um so a lot of exciting things happening on onchain origination but um really I expect the the entirety of this this uh space and this map to just continue to expand.

>> Yeah. Very very cool. Um I mean it make it makes sense. And so would you classify both of these you know or I guess we talked about several of these different uh or credit origination protocols. Talked about Maple, Rockaway X, Figure Falcon X. Um, do these all fall under the umbrella of private credit? >> Um, a lot of them do. A lot of them do. I mean, it's it's just really a matter of of uh terminology. Uh, so in in my opinion, you know, private credit is an non-bank issuer or pool of funds um extending credit to some entity. that

can be an individual, it can be an institution. So really all of this um is that uh but I think onchain credit is a more applicable term just in terms of how blockchain and crypto tech is being used um and merged with credit opportunities. >> Very cool. All right. So now let's talk about you know some more I guess of the supply side. Obviously, people are hungry for high DeFi rates. Um, other tokenized institutional credit funds, right? And so, you say here, uh, this is led by Apollo and Janice Henderson.

Based on this chart, it it looks like Janice Henderson is blowing this away, especially towards the end of last year. Uh, it's just a lot of orange on this chart. their JA uh is just under 3x that of uh the next highest player. What is it about Janice Henderson that's been able to to see so much success uh with their JA fund? >> Yeah, so Grow Finance is an agent uh within the Sky ecosystem that focuses on credit and some other yield bearing opportunities on chain. And so they they had a $1 billion seed investment uh into the JA uh tokenized credit fund. And that's why you see the big the big spike

there at the tail end of of last year for JAA. Um and on the capital allocation side, the Sky ecosystem is is a major player. Uh Growth Finance, Spark, now OEX uh are all allocating to different parts of the onchain credit ecosystem. So, OEX, you may have seen they uh just announced their inaugur inaugural cohort of eight different projects uh many of which are within this map. Uh onchain credit, USDA, um Maple, many others. And so, OEX is now beginning to allocate capital to onchain credit opportunities as well. Um on the curation side, um you mentioned money market activity and so this is a

massive part of onchain credit as well. Curators are allocating capital not into investing in onchain credit but they are providing liquidity on money markets that enable the productive use of onchain credit assets. Uh looping comes to mind right if you're able to take advantage of some of these higher yields of you know five six seven 8% and borrow against that collateral at 4% that provides an attractive looping opportunity. Um, and so curators are are taking advantage of that with their vaults, offering higher yields for for their users and depositors. Um, so yeah, that that's a bit about the capital allocation side of things.

>> Got it. Okay. And let's just hover on this for a moment. Uh, the Sky ecosystem, like you said, is a big part of this story. And so uh the the you know funds deploy these strategies and they list these tokenized funds on chain and then Sky is effectively just pouring pouring capital into these funds. Uh you mentioned Grove is a big part of the story as well. And so does it make sense like you know Sky is kind of an onchain protocol. They're looking for onchain funds. We're just going to continue to see this, you know, if Sky is able to get uh kind of their I believe it's 3.75% from is their base rate on USDS, they're

able to uh you know increase the amount of of USDs in in circulation by issuing uh by issuing this and paying 3.75% yield, then they're just going to go turn around almost like the looping strategy that you mentioned. they're going to go turn around and and invest that new Sky or excuse me that new USDS into the JA at five, six, seven percent. >> Um, so yes, you're you're correct that these opportunities power the sky saving savings rate and the hope is that it pushes it upwards, right? Um, I don't know that Sky would be engaging in looping activity. Obviously, that is a riskier uh activity. So, and they tend to be uh more riskoff, more conservative

conservative. Um but even if you're getting you know five six% that is higher than some other opportunities that are on chain right if you just hold the base credit asset uh without looping it um but I will say that longer term right now it is a lot of cryptonnative capital that's being allocated to onchain credit like from the sky ecosystem uh but longer term uh I think the benefits of tokenizing credit are apparent when you take into account the composability on defi So, >> um it's difficult to borrow against your credit in traditional finance, let alone loop it. Um and so by tokenizing some of this, it makes it easier to take

advantage of of borrowing against that collateral, maybe even looping it, amplifying yield. So, longer term, I hope that uh more traditional capital comes on chain to take advantage of some of these benefits that DeFi provides. >> Yeah. And it seems like especially once you start to fit some of these things together, you know, let let's just think through the convergence of some of these things because intuitively in my mind it's like, okay, all right, one, we have stable coins. This is kind of the backbone of this onchain credit, you know, financial system. Once we have stable coins here and we have, you know, some tokenized funds, these stable coins can start to earn some yield. And then I can imagine some traditional players coming in. uh they're looking to to earn

that yield and then they can turn around and they can originate more loans almost like you would do in like an a horizon borrow against your credit in that sort of sense but they can do this at much larger scale as more of these facilities come on chain when you start to see the convergence of you know the onchain uh credit origination offchain credit origination as well as these tokenized funds what are some of the use cases that start to come to mind as you see these protocols fitting together. >> Yeah. Uh that's an exciting long-term vision and potential of bringing actually the the broader origination process on chain. I think that's still a ways out. There are some players popping

up that are trying to bring the entire credit credit origination cycle on chain. Valenor comes to mind, just raised uh over $20 million to rearchitect the origination process using blockchain technology. Rialo is another one creating a purpose-built blockchain that focuses on on credit and some other real world asset opportunities. Um so I think that's further out but there is potential to bring the broader origination underwriting uh loan repayment process onchain. Uh I just think it's it's a little bit further out.

>> Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. Um another thing I want to cover here with you, you know, there's been uh some debate on chain about where yields are. Too high, too low. You know, people have been saying, look, you know, why am I going to deposit into some of these D5 protocols at three, four, 5% when treasuries can give me the same thing, and I'm taking way more risk uh in these smart contracts. Um, I see you have another chart here. You know, onchain credit yields well above the three-month US Treasury rate of 3.7%.

Um, and so you've got Acred here at, you know, upwards of 8%. Uh you've got uh more funds on here spread at 8 percent 7% for some some of these other ones. Um JA is at 4.8% even that is higher than treasuries. You know I is is DeFi dead and it's long live NEO finance like is this the future of yields onchain? We're going to be looking at these, you know, onchain on tokenized funds from Janice Anderson and Apollo, you know, between these this 4 to 8% range. That gives us, you know, plenty of edge beyond treasuries. And, you know, in theory, we we are getting more

protection than something like Kelp Dow where we just saw, you know, quite a quite an exploit. like is this going to fuel more adoption of these? You know, where do you think DeFi yields go from here that aren't currently offering, you know, the the safety protection or the higher yield of these tokenized uh market funds? >> Yeah. Um, you know, yields fluctuate. I I think DeFi rates will will trend upwards over time as as things get better just in terms of the market. But um the way that I end the report is talking about this about traditional finance coming onchain versus the onchain, you know, the the opportunities

and the values of permissionlessness of broadening access things like this that we all came into crypto for. Um and I think it's going to be a mix of the two where yes, you have institutional credit funds or institutional uh institutions coming on chain to take advantage of some of this capital that is on chain. uh broaden access for for their products and and increase their AUM, right? I think that's that's totally valid. Um and those those assets will likely remain barred for KYC accredited investors with uh significant minimums, investment minimums. I think that's fine. um it does stand to push yields up where you know if there's markets money

markets for that those assets as collateral if you are lending to that market you also take advantage of the higher yield because the borrowing rate is higher than maybe some other cryptonative collateralized markets like CBTC um so I think I think that's fine and then on the onchain origination side this is where it's exciting for me because some of these opportunities um access is broadening for them. Anyone can go buy syrup USDC, buy Maple and be earning that 4.8% yield or uh Prime by Figure and earn the 7% yield. So there is a lot of exciting stuff in the onchain origination side and what's cool is that it broadens access to uh folks

like you and I to easily gain access to some of these yields where we wouldn't otherwise be able to access them. Yeah, it feels like the biggest loser out of all of this is going to be the traditional bank savings account because that's where a lot of people have their money parked. You know, even in in an investment account, you know, you can go stick it in a money market and you can get, you know, four or five percent. You know, like you're saying that there's higher yields available. The 8% from Janice Henderson, you know, the the 9% from from Figures Prime. What's cooked is the, you know, basis point and a half that I'm getting from, you know, a savings account in a traditional bank that feels like it's long gone.

>> Yeah, totally. And, uh, I think that's what we all want. You know, when I was younger, my dad would put some of my savings that he was managing for me and to see these that yielded like less than 1%. Um, and then I studied finance in university and I realized that that's crazy. Um so so yeah and you're seeing a lot of fintexs now get into this onchain uh space you know um Kraken has vaults with VA allowing their users to take advantage of some of these onchain yields. Um I fully expect other larger fintex kind of web 2.5 if you will to start offering uh products that allow access to onchain yields in a very easy way through their frontends. Um, so yeah, I expect the access of these

opportunities to continue to accelerate. Um, even if you're not willing to go on chain yourself, you'll probably have access to them through some of these apps. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that it certainly looks that way where you know someone a retail user is not going to be sophisticated enough to to do due diligence on you know Apollo, Janice Henderson, a Credge AAA like they're not going to go down the entire stack of these different products. You know they're going to pull up their financial super app uh where they have you know invest and earn and save and spend and all these things and they might get a few of these suggested to them. You can also see how finance becomes like an algorithm, like a social media feed, and you're just kind of scrolling. You're

like, "Yeah, you know, I like that one. I like this one." And then this is, you know, you're you've got a for you page for private credit, and and this is ultimately where we get a lot of our investment uh access from and we just get it served directly to us. >> Totally. Yeah. The the vault curators, Steakhouse, and Toro, all of them uh they like the sound of that. >> Yeah. We're going to see a for you page from the vault curators here very soon. Um Patrick, man, appreciate you spending time. I just got a couple more like general questions here, I guess. Like as you were building through this, you took a lot of time. It's obviously a very thoughtful, well done report. Um did a great job on it. I I'm curious from your perspective.

What's the most surprising thing that came out of this? Like did you have expectations going in? What what happened to those expectations? Did it kind of line up? you just, you know, were able to level up your own understanding or did anything catch you off guard? Anything surprising? >> Yeah, you know, I was very excited to jump into this research and this report. Um, similar to your neo finance thesis, um, traditional finance is coming on chain and merging with with onchain defy systems. That's a thesis we have here at Serotonin as well. Um, learned a ton throughout the the two months uh, working on this report. I think the onchain credit space is much more expansive than I had imagined in the beginning. You know, I knew about Maple

Finance, but there's so many other players uh that make up this stack, not only on the credit issuance side, but also on the infrastructure, capital allocation, and risk management side of of the stack. Um, so it it's huge and and it's only growing. That's one one big surprise. Maybe the other I'll call out is the growth of onchain credit 22x in 2025 and the fact that every single onchain credit asset that I looked into was yielding above three-month US Treasury rates and average defi lending rates. Um so that just uh shouts the the yield opportunity that unchain credit presents.

>> Yeah. Which it certainly should be. I mean look at the you know there is an additional additional risk here. >> Yeah. So we we've got to take that into account. Um and I guess similar question, but did you notice any dislocations like uh okay this and just I mean from a quick a quick look at the report it seems like uh it seems like Janice Henderson 8.2% is a great yield. Uh very reputable company. Um seems like a good place to lend there. And then when it comes to borrow, like where were did you notice any arbitrage opportunities or or you know any significant dislocations in in some some of these lend borrow facilities?

>> Um if if you're saying dislocations versus the borrow rates um there are definitely several and that's why a lot of looping activity is happening on some of these assets. um just highlighted in a thread today uh Falcon X's vault receipt token from Paro um that is yielding around upwards of 9% and you can borrow around 5 6% there's a lot of looping activity happening there um I only expect that to continue the the one thing holding that back is the liquidity side of things private credit or credit in general is is a longer duration uh asset class so investors have to be willing to hold this thing uh long term And there are opportunities to get out.

Uh you know many institutions allow up to 5% of the nav of a fund to exit every quarter but that still takes a quarter and is subject to the cap. Um so the problem with DeFi is that everything is built to be immediately instantly composable. You can take your money out whenever move it around and that doesn't really work with some of these onchain credit assets. So liquidity is really holding holding back the looping uh opportunities. There are a lot of liquidity protocols like 3F, Vision, Quark um that are helping to solve that problem. So that onchain credit can be used uh and continue to scale.

>> Yeah. And um man, I I I think you know this is just expansive. I guess not not much else from my end. Um everyone guys go check out uh the state of onchain credit report. Uh Patrick did an incredible job on it. Se. That's serotonin's website. You guys can find it there. Patrick, I I'll give you the last word. Any closing thoughts here? Just, you know, wrapping up wrapping up the uh the state of onchain credit. It feels like this is just still extremely early. There's a lot of players coming in and the market is going to make sense of it here over the coming months.

>> Yeah, coming months, coming years as well. I expect it to continue to grow. Uh I'll be keeping up with it, posting about it on my X. And we'll just end by sharing that this is the hard launch of serotonin research. Um we're going to be working with partners in the future to put out research alongside them. So if anyone is interested in that, feel free to reach out to myself or or serotonin. Uh would be happy to jam with you guys on some future research and hope you Robbie and everyone else in Miami. I'll be down there. >> Yeah, let's do it, man. The neo finance thesis lives on. Let's uh let's collaborate on uh on something real soon.

Let's go. >> Cool, man. Thanks for coming on. Uh big congrats to uh Serotonin Research and uh Patrick. Thanks for coming on, man. Appreciate you spending the time and great report. >> Appreciate you. >> Yeah, we'll see you soon. Cheers, buddy. All right, guys. The show continues. Great report. I mean, this is uh comprehensive to say the least. Um just looking through it now. I mean, Skye's got an entire section here. Uh Patrick went through vault curation, traditional private credit, talked about the onchain origination, off-chain origination of a lot of these things. Uh transparency is huge. Uh the verifier network, chain link is mentioned. Uh very very comprehensive report here. Uh would

suggest you guys check it out because this is a pillar of neo finance these days. I mean this is what DeFi has become. It's become this entire web of interconnected financial and credit products. Uh, and this is not slowing down. This is actually accelerating. I wouldn't be surprised if we see um a significant portion of the top 20, 50, 100 coins out there to look a lot more like um, you know, you look at like Figure Helock, which I believe is something like in the top 10. Yes, number nine right now. and it's just slow and steady. Uh it's just basically a stable coin at 103, but then you look at Superstate,

they've got a treasury fund, uh government securities fund, USB, and it's just up and to the right. Uh so it's pretty pretty incredible to see, uh the growth of these products. Uh and I I do believe that, you know, this is going to be the pillar where now we're going to get a lot more functionality mechanisms built around. It feels like this is uh this is DeFi in 2026 and beyond. So, we're going to see a lot more of it, guys. Next up, uh we've got Lass Clawson. I hope I'm saying that first name right. Uh founding partner at 1KX. We're going to bring him up. We've got friends at 1KX. Uh Peter and Weey.

Uh these guys, we go we go way back. First time having Lass on. Uh welcome to the show, man. It's a pleasure to have you. >> Thank you for having me. >> Yeah. Um, well, like I I was just saying, Weey is a friend of the show, as is Peter. I think Peter was actually in uh our Empire State Building office yesterday. He's just paying my co-host to visit there. And so, we go way back. You guys are are doing incredible things. It's the first time on the show. Uh, I'd love just a a you know, introduction to yourself and how you ended up finding 1KX.

>> Yeah, again, thanks for having me. Also, I'm a big fan of the show and >> Thank you, man. Yeah, my background is I was an entrepreneur uh together with Chris who's the other founding partner of 1KX and uh you know we've really been in the trenches for years and grinding it out as entrepreneurs and um originally actually looked at blockchain uh at the end of 2016 um to build companies on top. So this could be a new platform. This is a new internet of money. Can we build companies on top? And then you know we realized pretty quickly that's a little bit too early for let's say an Uber on the blockchain. If you remember those days you basically had Ethereum and ESC20s that you could send to Binance and that was kind of it. You

know even unis swap all these things that we now are sort of old DeFi etc. None of that existed yet. But uh for us it was came clear very quickly that this this was going to be very very big. um and we wanted to be part of the space and then you know looking at the investor landscape back then it was uh very immature to say the least and most importantly there weren't funds that were run by former entrepreneurs and um and I think we've seen in venture as well that for early stage software or tech investments former founders do tend to be better investors um I've obviously tried to think about this a lot and I think the main thing is because when you're an entrepreneur um you know you're always too bad decisions

away from killing the whole thing. I mean really the the pressure is intense. And so you develop this uh laser focus on what to worry about. And this is actually really hard. It's hard to know what to worry about in the early days because we would have investors that were very smart and very thoughtful people and they ask us all these very complex questions that completely didn't matter. And so I think uh you know what you can bring to to the table uh when you're an investor as a former entrepreneur is that you actually know what matters in those early days and you just try to help with that and then everything else you kind of get out of the way. Um long story short, you know, we really set up with a very um authentic and genuine vision to just be entrepreneurs with money and and support

other entrepreneurs going through these difficult journeys. Uh, you know, again, if you think about it, when you're an entrepreneur, it's most of the times you don't have a girlfriend because on the weekends, you know, people go to brunches and parties and you're going back to the office. People invite, you know, your friends, you kind of end up having not any friends because they want to go on skiing trips and you're like, I have to go back to the office. I can't, you know, fly down to Austria on the weekend and go skiing. And so I [snorts] think that's that's a big part that as a former entrepreneur you really know how to what it really is to be uh the journey of an entrepreneur and relate to that and then just try to be as helpful as possible.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And so I I'm curious just to dig dig in here. Um and and I think it's important you know the audience does get uh a little bit of background on on yourself. You've you know uh built and led we ride uh which was a uh a daily ride Berlin based mobility startup. Um and so you know you you've had uh trials tribulations here you know as the entrepreneur in your experience right you mentioned you know you're going back to the office day in and day out what are some of the things maybe we could just get a couple of examples something that comes to mind these founders are asking you questions that don't matter like what are founders obsessed with that you think just does not matter and then we'll get to the opposite what are

they not thinking about that you have to set them in the in the right direction. Uh maybe quick edit there. Uh I meant to say that investors they you know they ask you these very thoughtful questions when you're an entrepreneur right so we were entrepreneurs we had investors incredibly accomplished smart people asking us questions like you know this question what if Microsoft does this >> and you know we are basically you know I'm I'm struggling to have three customers here trying to you know figure out what I'm building for them and and I don't need to have a twoe email conversation about what if Microsoft does this right so that would be a very very specific example of investors. Um, [snorts] and I think it's, you know, it's it's not incorrect to to think about these things or have that in the

back of the head, but also if you're just trying to get product market fit. Um, you know, I think what would be more helpful is really like, hey, what are the metrics do you think that matter, right? That help you find product market fit that even help you know, do you have product market fit? I think those are the things really that as an entrepreneur, you basically you you want to find customers that stick around and and you want to make sure you don't run out of money, right? I don't need to philosophize about whatever Microsoft touches this because right now it's three customers and I don't think they're coming for us just yet. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um and so I mean I I guess the the previous question is still still remains, you know, when when you're helping to direct early stage founders, you know, what is it that

you're looking for? We we have a lot of VCs on the show and so everyone seems to have a bit of a varied answer here, but um I'm I'm curious from your perspective, what is the the general thesis as you look to deploy capital into the next generation of founders? Who are you looking for and what are you looking for in these founders? >> Yeah. And so we have you know we we refine it because we always come back at the end of the day it is really the entrepreneurs that make the difference. It's very obvious in hindsight, but it's remarkable of how many times that that you know, in practice is more difficult because also they come sort of it's it's you know we have uh um about 20 25 variables that we really rank founders on. Um I think one note also here is

that this has changed over time. I think generally in in in digital assets and blockchain crypto you know even just like it used to be crypto now then it was blockchain now it's digital assets right the industry is evolving and the founders that are relevant are evolving and I would even go I think maybe a good example for that is like Vitalik I think had a time where he was the perfect founder evangelist for Ethereum and for the industry right when it was really about attracting um very very innovative very creative engineers that are sort of looking beyond and that you know are are willing to to fight that way um you know through uh solidity you know not the best programming language etc but that

need sort of an an ideology and evangelism that attracts him to experiment around this with really really big ideas on how to change the world I think there was a period where Vitalik was really the best evangelist in the world and now I think as we're getting sort of we the infrastructure level is mature and now we have to attract founders that are a bit more you know um sort of classic entrepreneurs that are revenue driven that are you know IPO driven um I think there you have um you know a different kind of entrepreneur um so at the beginning it was very evangelical very very technological now we think that particularly on the infrastructure layer you know the technology has broadly sort of been played out um and you don't need a cryptographer that uh you know is is a

great discord evangelist now you need entrepreneurs that know how to do business development that set up sales organizations, right, that need to know how to make friends on Wall Street and distribute products there. Um, so I think that is uh maybe the the common thread is evangelism, the ability to get people excited about your vision and your product. Um, I but in different shapes and forms, right? The in the early days it was more quirky. a was, you know, colorful unifor unicorn t-shirts uh very sort of ideology driven and and I think now still that ability to get people excited, but it's a different kind of people that are more important now and and you know, you have different means of communicating with

them. But I think the the the common thread really that goes throughout is um entrepreneurs that have a strong communication ability that are able to get people really excited uh and get people to drop everything they're doing and move halfway across the world to join them on their vision and and you know and work on what they're building. >> Yeah. Yeah. That absolutely we've seen a lot of this as well. We've been calling this like a show me the money market right now. It it feels like business uh plans I mean obviously are very important but for a while there it was like you could just you know put together we're going to be a faster cheaper L1 you'd get funding you would able to launch you'd do the whole thing and and you would end up making money unfortunately because it wasn't really a

net positive ad to the entire industry. Uh it feels like now like you're saying the value edge is at you know committing uh driving together a business forward putting together some sales getting real users real revenue and and making sure that business plan is sustainable. You know loss I I want to ask you a question. It's not like a gotcha. I'm just because I'm sure that there is a consistent rationale and investment thesis. Um, I I noticed you guys did this company called Giggles. And so in a show me the money environment, you know, we're talking about putting together business deals and it feels like it's just like a more

serious environment than the rainbow unicorn t-shirts of, you know, five, seven years ago. How does a company like Giggles fit into the market conditions in today's day and age? >> Yeah, it's a good question. Uh I think the short uh the short answer is that the ability to drive attention and to consistently uh generate attention and consistently keep it and funnel that into a product is priceless particularly in an age where you know your uh product and coding is basically is almost commodity. um any good product manager now that use knows how to use cloud can create products and technology and so we do value also on the consumer side and

teams that have shown this consistent ability to generate attention and and and market in you know in an unconventional way and get particularly young people's attention. So that's the story behind giggles. Yeah. >> Very cool. Yeah. It it Okay. So another part of this thesis attention is effectively everything. You know, we've seen those who end own the end user relationship. That is who is able to effectively monetize first. Everyone else is further down the value stack. And so, you know, in this day and age, clawed AI, these things are commoditizing tech. Uh, again, you know, is distribution is it the most important thing right now as you guys are thinking more in terms of the companies that

you're prioritizing? If you see someone who's, you know, maybe, you know, they're they're thinking a lot about building a net new product, but they're not thinking about go to market or distribution as much, do you help steer them in that direction, focusing more on acquisition and more on distribution? >> Yeah. And I think we have um you know, sort of the industry kind of overcorrects or is focus on one area too much and then sort of overcorrects a little bit. Um it also depends obviously where in the stack you know you're you're investing where in the stack is this project or company. Um but uh definitely on the let's say company side where this is clearly like you need to

have a product market fit. You need to be solving a real problem. You need to you know demandly show that people are willing to pay for for the solution of their problems right which is the solution is your product. Um I think there is definitely a um a strong focus again and we actually don't see that it's something that you can really change. So it depends again on on on the stack. Uh but if it is something that really is cl trying to sell Wall Street and you have a founder that's more comfortable um you know turning the video off in a call it's probably not the right fit.

>> I see I see what you're saying. Absolutely. Um yeah, I mean we we are uh it does feel like we're past the uh the anonymous culture, you know, memecoin kind of surge that that whole thing. >> I'll say I've never bought into that. Uh I know it was a thing for a while and I thought, you know, this is essentially proof of stake. You're social capital that people know what you're doing and we're removing that stake completely and I can just be an anonymous founder and basically raise money and run away and there's zero consequences for me. So uh that uh just uh you know I don't I hate to be the like I told you so guy but that I never bought into that but it was a real big thing for a while and now um I'm kind of thankful it's you know it

didn't inst it didn't stick around. >> I mean look in order to you got to be contrarian sometimes to survive you know this long and I take you didn't get burned in the ICO wave of 2017 too much because that was happening quite a bit back then. Yeah, I think uh you know we've see this in variation. So I think it's it's really a testament to how powerful this technology is that you know money can flow around the world uh five times in 20 seconds and and so we always see the the ability to raise money in you know massive amounts of money and and unfortunately this is the the price we pay for permissionless innovation. You also get a lot of people that are very crafty and just, you know, just, you

know, give me the money and then, you know, I'll basically run away or I've heard of projects that basically pre-wrote like five years of of uh product updates or project updates. Um, >> five five years in advance. They'll they just schedule those in uh investor updates out. Yeah. No, I mean uh I'm not surprised unfortunately because uh it has been a very buzzwordy uh you know, ecosystem as of late. Uh now I feel like a lot of those people have gone into the AI world uh and we're still here. What do you think are some of the sectors most poised for success? I mean I I just got off uh a chat with Patrick from Saraton put together a a state of the onchain credit uh report, you know,

speaking about onchain origination figure helocks. There's all kinds of opportunities here. Uh it feels like there's more businesses out there that have established businesses that are now adopting blockchain technology. You know, do you see a lot of value in, you know, net new applications or do you think look, it's time, you know, we kind of stick to what we know best and and it's just we're going to use blockchain to scale it like, you know, where where do you where do you think is some of the largest opportunities still at play?

Yeah, I think that's a very careful balance. I definitely um we may see some people that are sort of overcorrecting into that convergence of of fintech and and DeFi and kind of blockchains. You know, don't get me wrong, I do think this is really the most imminent after stable coins, which are it's become very obvious now that this is massive and it's basically upending one of the most important layers of the economy, which is payments. And um you know this after years and years of hearing like we have a is great I don't need stable coins or I don't need a blockchain. And it turns out that actually this is a you know this is a zero to one or a 10x improvement on payments just the fact that it's programmable. It's 24/7 it's almost at zero cost. Um and then obviously the next easy I think sort of

extrapolation is and and Larry Frink from BlackRock is evangelizing this for years now is basically that you run uh the financial system on blockchain rails. Um and and this is you know I'm not saying anything too uh crazy or new here. I think every there's large large consensus that this uh essentially this transition of finance and I'm not just talking about sort of uh you know trading etc the financial system but really the finance of everything so corporate finance etc banking payments etc. um moving onchain um that's a very very clear uh big obvious sort of massive application um box let's say or or ecosystem and that will be very very big I think

there's also the risk to kind of miss out what is coming sort of after that uh even though it is not as clear and not as tangible we actually seeing that RWA's tokenization the world of finance running on blockchains is so obvious that in the lens of many LPs um before it used to be cryptovc we need a team that understands this blackbox of cryptovc and their specialists and and and there's very few LPs that made the effort and and dedicated to understanding this or had you know advisers that helped them allocate and they did extremely well we're seeing now is that there's this massive new set of VC uh LPs that are saying well okay now it's just part of

VC it's so obvious that this is you know happening that basically the tokenization of of everything is happening. Um and and it's it's not a unclear use case anymore. It's really it's very obvious and we're just putting this basically in the VC bucket. Um at the risk of that uh I think there or there's a bit of the risk of sort of overfocusing on that and missing kind of the bigger things beyond that we have just for context. So our guiding northstar the thesis is uh why blockchains why do I need one is is called cost of trust. And so what blockchains do really do well is that they manufacture trust at almost zero cost, right? And so trust is very it's omni omnipresent, but it's also very abstract, but it does affect many many other areas of the economy. And in some

shape or form um you know that will be ripe for disruption. There's there's a way to extrapolate. There's a paper that said that 35% of US employment is trust establishing functions, right? Auditors, notaries, attorneys, etc. So that kind of gives you a rough idea if you where to extrapolate that that 35% of the economy is cost of trust. Um and so it goes beyond that but in some ways it's very abstract and unclear yet. So I think was you know there was this whole movement of like social media on the blockchain >> and uh we obviously monitor very very closely. We thought it was a little misguided. It was too skumorphic. It was like oh we'll do Twitter but on the blockchain which turns out that now it's kind of just worse. Um but I would say um that there is mass amounts of trust

involved right for whole society to rely on a social network to convey truth or not um that's actually a big trust factor and we've seen in the case of Facebook for example right where they make politics they basically decided an election by deciding to withhold or suppress a story >> so there is a massive trust factor here at play it's just very abstract and kind of unclear how that is going to transform into let's say blockchain based product right um so I'm just saying that that I think we have very very big uh very clear use cases such as finance or the financialization of everything on blockchain rails there are other things uh beyond that where trust is very you know expensive or it uh it prohibits actually some use cases um

then there's also deepin which is actually very interesting it's the fastest growing sector in terms of fees um uh by far and I think there the general uh way to look at it is that you have marketplaces and then blockchains are just really really good at um accounting at um uh organizing supply and demand coordinating that and then basically an accounting layer for work that's been done and a payment layer right and that's all automated that's almost at zero cost in the middle it's just a protocol not a company coordinating that anymore so that would be also another ca use case where you you know decentralized physical infrastructure that also has a very very strong uh you know uh blockchain use case and We have obviously this massive

uh you know AI crypto plus AI. >> Um I think that's also been unfortunately a little bit abused in this industry where you had a lot of projects that were sort of you know um I think harvesting the excitement from the retail investor to to get in on AI because you know I can't invest in open AI. I can't invest in in anthropic. Um but we do think there are um you know an agentic economy is is going to be massive. it is most likely going to run on blockchain rails. It's not going to be on a that shuts off on Friday at 5:00 p.m. Um and uh but I think the ways to invest there are not as obvious. In our case, they're actually more specific.

>> Very cool. And so uh there's quite a few sectors that you had mentioned there. Uh it sounds like deepen uh is one of the fastest growing. Uh you're also I think this is probably contrarian take. I mean, you mentioned that you're still looking forward to some of these non-financial use cases on chain. I think this is one thing that uh a lot of people have pretty much written off after the collapse of NFTts. They've seen, you know, Farcaster was kind of that, you know, onchain social program. Didn't really work out. And now we have some of the largest financial institutions in the world talking about tokenization, talking about coming onchain. You mentioned Larry Frink. A lot of this ends up onchain. people have kind of put a lot of the opportunities aside from finance. They put it in the back of their minds really as maybe

something that comes up, maybe something that never comes up. Uh but it still remains to be seen. Before we before we let you go, I I want to ask about the VC landscape in general because it feels like we've got sort of a a divergence, a bifurcation in the VC landscape, particularly within the crypto industry. A lot of the uh companies that are now benefactors of the power law we see this across you know the entire stack prediction markets per platforms you know prediction markets you kin poly market runaways it feels like no one's ever going to catch them uh hyperlquid and you can even say lighter maybe aster

in there runaways when it comes to the per platforms it it would be very difficult for someone to catch up maybe it's possible but it might take some long a long time and it feels like even you know DeFi, you've got a you've got Morpho the power law suggests these will continue to lead and so as the these protocols the ones that have gotten very lindy continue to do well it feels like if they raise more capital uh it requires larger funds maybe they even go outside of crypto into traditional finance or technology funds uh they they raise larger checks they go they go uh into later stages and then on the other side you've got maybe very early or maybe nothing at all. Uh when it comes

to how AI is augmenting some of the early stage companies that are out there, it feels like it's becoming more difficult to play the VC game. At least this is maybe what what we're hearing from people that have been on the show. Do you do you think this is the case? Do you need to write larger and larger checks to keep up with the pace of the industry and therefore raise larger funds? And if so, are you seeing the demand generally? Do you is this trajectory does it does it resonate with you? >> No to be honest it does not. Um we are so the first is that you know we issued an onchain revenue report uh to really sort of uh dive into the concept of protocol business and show that there's real revenue at stake here. There's also

revenue distributed to token holders are at all-time highs. And what we've seen there is that they are winner takes most dynamics but it's very dynamic. Um and so I think 25% 25% of the top 10 weren't even there the quarter before. Um so it is actually quite um yeah in DeFi applications which is by far the the the most fee generating sector. It was actually very very dynamic. Uh you mentioned a yes lending borrowing lending was the one that seemed to be very sticky. Uh as we've seen the last two weeks it's not so sticky anymore.

>> Yeah got that right. And then I think yes if you you know we we've always thought it was very important to evolve with this industry uh you know crypto basically someone made an analys analysis moves about 25 times the speed of the legacy financial system you need to evolve and yes we do hear from some other uh crypto VCs that they they sort of deal flow stale we're not seeing a lot of opportunities uh we're seeing more deal flow than ever we're having a really really hard time and need to lean heavily into AI to keep up. Um but yes, these are different opportunity sets.

They are not the typical like hey we're doing a you know here's a new D5 protocol or we're doing uh perpetrating onchain. Um this is much much more specific uh in industries that are leveraging basically blockchains to solve problems. Um and that goes beyond the sort of typical cryptovc sphere um that we used to have. >> And is it exogenous uh opportunities? It's no longer like you're saying the per DeFi opportunities that we've become accustomed to. It's it's similar to things like you know was it figure helock onchain credit going into the housing market or is it USDA going into the AI market GPU financing they're kind of going into these adj these industries adjacent to crypto rather than building intrinsically.

>> Yes. So exactly so the way right we had this infrastructure phase it was about crypto and you know crypto infrastructure and now what we're seeing that right and I'm coming back to basically finance uh and not just the financial system of like wall street the way we understand it but all of finance corporate finance personal finance everything will run on blockchains it's not that everybody's going to a defi wallet to now run um you know to run their finances in a defi wallet it's just that all existing applications and newa new use cases are basically going are been built on on blockchain rails, but it is more that these industries exist. You have entrepreneurs from existing industries and they're leveraging blockchain blockchains in a very specific way to solve problems versus like, hey, everybody, we need to

move everybody into DeFi here. >> Got it. Um, yeah, it it makes complete sense. Um, and so I mean, as we kind of look forward to, you know, three, six, nine months down the line, actually, I'm curious. It's I'm sure it's not months, it's more like years. What is your time horizon for some of these things? You know, I'll just say, you know, we we've done some angel investing. It's not not quite to the scale of the venture, you know, funds that you guys are raising. Just our own capital here. No outside LPs. And, you know, a lot of these things are, you know, they're in the cliffs and we've got some, you know, unlocks that are coming up. But it feels like really to understand the value capture that some of these things have

the opportunities here it's it's a matter of maybe is it 5 to 10 years what generally when you target a time horizon for some of the opportunities that you're talking about going into these adjacent business models bringing blockchain technology making these things more efficient are you targeting token launches now and and or are you targeting something bigger further raises or exits are going public and and then what is the time horizon that you see to ultimately realize some of these investments? >> I think we it's why we like venture funds. We like 5 to 10 year time frames.

I think it's really the that's the right expectation management. We've had periods where you know uh gains were much quicker but I think those were extraordinary uh circumstances and um largely driven by macro um and I think yeah 5 to 10 year time frames are I think the right ones and I think for tokens in general is a bit of an you know identity crisis I think since October 10th >> um and um I think there again it has to come back to real product market fit revenue venue revenue being distributed to token holders uh akin to you know dividends etc and I think also the legal um uh the legal rights of token holders has to be uh established in a more clear

way ideally through regulation right and so that again regulation is we've seen uh you know these high cost of trust markets they're usually very regulated because you have a lot of intermediaries that are you know um providing the trust but that also usually means they can run away with the money you have counterparty risk right and that for For that reason, we do have very rightly so a lot of regulation and for that to change uh we've basically seen how stuck this industry was without clear regulation and we got the first was the stable coin bill and then what that has unleashed and now we're hoping that you know uh I think this year maybe before the midterms um we get the next bill that enables broadly um you know tokenization and and finance running on blockchain rails and I think that's uh

you know a little bit uncontrollable uh but it seems that the timing there is is very very good and um I think so for some of these um finance applications payment applications I think there the timelines are like three years they're much faster right because we're really at the top of the of the application layer very very clear use cases very clear product market fit um that is much quicker and then other things that are a bit more um >> you know >> deeper down the stack >> out there um that are a bit more I don't want to say esoteric but you know things where the use case isn't very clear yet and people are finding that out. Those things are usually I think 5 to 10 years is a good timeline.

>> Makes sense. Makes sense. Yeah. And anything deeper down the stack could uh it might like you're saying take a like you're saying out there esoteric could take a bit more time to ultimately find the idea that ultimately arrives at product market fit. Uh it takes more time for those to develop. The the last thing I got for you is, you know, as if if if we look at the liquid market, and this probably goes especially true for uh the the the shorter time horizons, anything, you know, three years and and and sooner. You know, the the macro landscape seems to be very correlated to really every everything out there in the liquid market right now feels very correlated to macro. uh everything moves in unison with you know the the war in

Iran and then you've got you know four out of the seven four out of the mag seven with earnings calls today Fed decided to you know leave rates unchanged in in you you know your day-to-day how much are you paying attention to macro versus kind of putting that to the side and thinking look over three to five to 10 years the all these macro situations resolve themselves. >> Yeah. So this is a something to I think it's very tempting with you know 247 every second price ticker. Uh it's very important to ignore all that. Um I think even daily weekly monthly quarterly you have to kind of see if the market is telling you something, right? And

sentiment. That's kind of how we see it. Um but uh yeah, I think uh you know people are impatient. You want kind of uh every day you want something to happen but uh and then people just trade on that, right? And then uh you know if we don't have anything in the industry to trade on then okay we'll start monitoring the situation and then we trade on that. And I think that's um you know fundamental difference between a trader and investor. We're investors we think the future is better than now. That's the only reason why you invest in the future. And I think as a trader you sort of it's it's more like a zero sum uh um you know mentality. And we and particularly we've seen this in this industry before um that very very good investors lost a little bit the patience and then started basically becoming

traders. And I think that's uh that's something that we you know we stay away from. >> Yeah. Makes sense. It we've repeatedly had the same I mean patience is the name of the game. Uh this is a consistency that we've heard from the smartest uh the smartest people that have joined the show uh of which put you up there. loss. Really really appreciate you coming on today uh sharing your wisdom. Uh no surprise patience uh is ultimately what separates the winners from the losers. Uh and setting up both the mindset as well as the tactical strategy to stay patient is ultimately what leads to success.

>> Thank you so much for having me. This was a pleasure. >> Yeah, same here. Thanks so much for coming on. Would love to uh chat again soon. We'll see you next time. Thanks a lot. >> See you soon. Bye bye. >> Bye. Love it. I mean, not you know, nothing new there. Although, uh, you know, the the the fresh perspective is always very very great to hear. Um, and so guys, patience is the name of the game. Obviously, you see, we stay disciplined. We're here day in and day out bringing you guys the latest.

But you can't get burnt out. You got to stay in the game. Uh, and ultimately, uh, this is this is how you do it. You stay patient. uh you keep a long-term mindset, keep your time horizons in mind, uh because this is ultimately what is going to lead everyone to the promised land. You got to see the thesis through and uh and that's ultimately what it's going to take. Guys, last but certainly not least, we're setting them up in the back. Uh we've got Billy Miller, the COO at Secure Ties. He's going to be coming up next. And so I'm just going to do a bit of prelude here. Get ourselves set up so that we've got uh we've got Billy uh

properly situated. Uh these guys just announced and launched uh their partnership with computer share. I'm also gonna going to do just a bit of bit of research here on computer share so that I get a proper uh we get a proper breakdown. Um because this is uh arguably one of the one of the larger announcements that we've seen come out of the industry as of late. Uh these guys, I'm sure you guys know them. Securitize has been shipping uh non-stop. Uh the mantra is tokenize the world. We've heard people uh from all over uh the world say this exactly. Tokenize the world. Uh these

guys are working with Black Rockck. They're working with Computer Share. Computershare is the world's largest transfer agent, probably one of the most important companies you guys have never heard of. Uh, and so we're going to be bringing on Billy Miller to talk about exactly this and their partnership with Computershare. Uh, bringing the S&P 500 onchain. So, let's do it. Billy, welcome to the show, man. >> Thank you for having me. Happy to be here. >> Absolutely. It's it's your first time on the show. I think we've been we've been trying to make it happen for a while, but this feels as timely as ever. So, yeah. Welcome. Happy to be here especially today.

>> Yeah. Well, congrats on the partnership uh with Computershare. Uh I want to dig into it. Uh why don't we just start quick intro? Um you know, you're COO at Securityize. Uh give us a little bit of an intro as far as how you ended up at Securitize. Where were you beforehand? And then we'll we'll dig into the the meat and potatoes here with Computer Share. >> Sure. So, um Billy Miller, COO. So, I've been with Securitize a little over four years now. I came to Securitize by way of an acquisition that Securitize made of a traditional stock transfer agency that I was running. So the majority of the past decade of my career has been spent working at a transfer agency. So I got intimately familiar with how the plumbing works behind the scenes of how

companies issue stock and how you manage shareholders and corporate actions and shareholder meetings and all the fun stuff that everyone knows about but doesn't really know how the sausage is made behind the scenes. So I joined Securitize to help bridge the gap between using the blockchain as the ledger of choice for a transfer agent to administer shares and the traditional rails which have all been in place for you know the past 50 years. Um so it's been a really fun ride to help bring that modernization to an industry that is super important to our entire financial ecosystem. And uh now we're seeing a lot of the the proof in the pudding with things like today that even

the largest of the providers that represent the biggest companies in the world are now getting inquiries or now they want to make these offerings themselves to all their issuers. So we're trying to grease the wheels and make tokenization more of an accessible reality for more and more public companies. >> Very cool. And so let's that seems like a great place to start. So uh you were at a traditional transfer agency. uh they've been doing the these transfer agencies the same way for 50 years uh and then now we're moving this onchain. Give us a sense of just generally I guess a good place to start is like what is a transfer agency? What is its purpose and how had it been operating for the last 50 years?

>> So if you're a company issuing shares, you could be an equity you know issuer debt or you could run a fund and be an asset manager. Anybody that issues shares to end investors generally hires a company called a transfer agent. So the transfer agent is the agent for the issuer and they're tasked with the responsibility of keeping track of who owns what and when. They help the investors perform critical functions like transfers. They pay out dividends. They help facilitate corporate actions like stock splits or mergers and acquisition activity. So they are a core feature that work directly with the issuers to serve the shareholders and they're heavily regulated by the SEC you

know many of the rules were written back in the 70s. U so it's it's a core component that is done very traditionally. I mean, when I ran a traditional stock transfer agency, we had a mail center where we put checks and envelopes and we had a fax machine that uh shareholders could send faxes uh to, you know, transfer shares to their trust. Um, so it's been a very manual process and industry. A lot of the big transfer agents have done a great job modernizing their systems with online portals and, you know, better customer service functionality. And it's always in an effort to improve your offering to the issuers because they're the ones who hire you. So I think we're right at the

inflection point where all of the transfer agents across the industry are starting to pay attention to new technologies such as blockchain and tokenization and how they can harness it to make their own operations more efficient and effective, but also differentiate their offering to give the issuers and the shareholders they work with what they really want. and that is to engage with the sharers however they want to. >> Yeah. Much more flexible, much more much more customizable, ultimately a better user experience as the users are the issuers themselves and then they can convey this and pass on that that value proposition to their shareholders. Um, and so you know, you were at the transfer agency, Securitize acquired you guys, and then now you have Securitize,

which is a transfer agency by way of acquisition. now working with Computershare also a transfer agency. And so is the is the partnership here like you know Computershare is one of the largest transfer agents out there for much of the the S&P. I think I think I saw $70 trillion worth of of market cap out there if I got that number right. And so I mean incredible to see these guys have extreme product market fit with their transfer agency. And now securitize as I understand it is a digital transfer agency. So is this kind of the modernization of computer share?

How how will uh securitize and computer share be working together? >> Yeah, I think it's important to note that there really is no such thing as a digital transfer agent. Transfer agents can register with the SEC. they can use whatever technology they want to administer the shares and securitize as the first one embracing you know blockchain and and more digitized experience um it took that path right but the traditional agents that have the majority of market share and represent the biggest companies in the world they may use traditional ledgers these these transfer agents use they either build the technology themselves it's like an in-house accounting system you know sitting on a cloud or physical server

there are some transfer agents that still could theoretically use Microsoft Excel. Um, so I think what this means is is we have been pursuing tokenization in a native way. And when I say native, I mean that the issuers themselves, the public company CEO that makes a decision and says we want to tokenize our shares. We wanted to ensure that they had an outlet to do that in a compliant way and the path to do that is through the transfer agent. So obviously computer share represents the majority of the S&P 500 and the biggest companies in the world and when they are getting inquiries from both the investor base and the issuers and the CEOs that are interested in using this technology we

wanted to be the core infrastructure uh to allow them to do this quickly. So securitize everything we've built, you know, from the multiblockchain connectivity to the DeFi utility and the integrations that we have, we now want to make that available to computershare's clients. So if they go to Computershare and want to tokenize that they have a quick and easy outlet to do that through the integration with Securitize. >> So So let's just I I don't want to talk in hypotheticals too much, but you know, let's say there's there's several IPOs that are planned to happen very soon, right? Um, and so without mentioning anyone by name, let's say, you know, one of these larger IPOs that is set to happen pretty soon goes and and they're working through their capital structure.

They're working on this launch. Uh, they go to Computershare. That's going to be their their transfer agent of choice, right, for one of these these these soon to be public companies. Computershare would say to them, "Hey, we've got securitized technology at our fingertips. We can tokenize your public shares when you go live and when you IPO so that you've got tokens that represent actual shares on your cap table right alongside public shares on a on a regulated exchange. Is that how this works?

>> You're you're exactly right and and I don't want to speak for computers here but from from our perspective the objective is is this is the biggest piece of the puzzle. It's solving the chicken and egg problem of for this market to build around tokenized securities like the NY announcement that we had of of building a market for tokenized securities. You need issuers to do that and the tokenized equity discussions that have been happening and the market share that's growing is not directly related to the companies themselves. you know, these are other products that somebody else can issue and sell tokens for that don't actually represent shares on the underlying books of the transfer agent. So, by computer

share harnessing the technology of securitize, a preIPO CEO who wants to tokenize could now select the tokenization option off the menu that gives them a quick and easy path to issue shares through the transfer agent directly in token form to their investor base. And that's the piece of the puzzle and the other pieces come with it where you know equity capital markets teams and underwriters can now build on this to complete onchain offerings and be able to access an entirely new segment of investors that are hungry to own and trade and and use these securities in DeFi, you know, to get a loan against them. So it kicks in the flywheel of

activity by just getting the issuers a safe and compliant option to do it through a trusted partner like computer share. >> Yeah. Um I want to get into how a lot of these puzzle pieces are coming together. Um, and so we've got the announcement that Securitize made with New York Stock Exchange. Uh, effectively this alternative trading platform that New York Stock Exchange is is going to be launching with Securitize's help. And so, correct me if I'm wrong, but effectively this is the venue, right?

And then when you've got a venue, you know, this can be the most efficient venue, better than Hyperlid, better than Binance, right? It's got everything to at it. And but you need you need assets, you know, whether those are are equities or tokens or something in between. You need things to go back and forth. The venue provides the marketplace, but you need bids and asks flowing through on the asset itself in order to facilitate this market. This announcement with computer share is going to enable the asset universe that will exist inside of the New York Stock Exchange alternative trading venue. Is that the right way to conceptualize some of the announcements that you guys have put out as of recently?

>> The the goal would be for for this to be a catalyst to help issuers get there themselves, right? It's the difficult part of of doing native tokenization is if we want to do it the right way where CEOs aren't complaining on X that you know, don't buy these shares because we don't know what they are. We want CEOs saying yes, we want tokenization. We want you to interact with this. We want this done through computer share. It it sends the signal of trust to the market that this isn't some crazy permissionless product that nobody understands. This is equivalent to you holding a stock certificate or a share in book entry, you know, from the transfer agent. So, it's the direct access point.

>> By giving the issuers the trust and the confidence to do this, then that gives them the ability to explore new market infrastructure. So, we're trying to build this parallel universe of we're not trying to rebuild the entire financial system. We're not we're not the ones shouting from the rooftop that everything's broken. Fix it. So, I expect this duality to coexist where you have traditional market functions as it normally does today while this new world can engage with tokenized securities, you know, outside of how it is normally done today and build a new system around that. So I think this is this is the conduit to make that happen.

>> Yeah. And and so um th this is the catalyst, the conduit like you're saying to ultimately tokenize the world as you guys like to say. Um you know computer share as as we talked about is one of the largest transfer agents out there today. I think we said 60% of the S&P 500 70 trillion in potential market cap to be tokenized. you know h how much of that 70 trillion do you anticipate coming online? Like this kind of feels like a new beginning, if you will. You know, now the doors are open, but it's still going to be CEOs of Disney and Nvidia and and Coinbase and a lot of these companies that Computershare works

with to ultimately walk through that door and and flip the switch to tokenize those shares. What's the process for that to take place? >> I think I think the best comparison is, you know, e delivery when when e delivery became a standard process, the the more technical folks that were ready to adopt the technology all switched to e- delivery. I barely get any mail at my house today, >> but there are many many people that still like getting bills, you know, every week uh to their address and all that stuff. So, it's not a flip of the switch, everything all of a sudden is is tokenized. It is a gradual adoption curve, but we just hope to shorten the time frame by giving everybody the tools they need to to get this job done. And I

when I first started in the transfer agency world, I actually had to convince issuers to switch from stock certificates to book entry shares. And and for those who don't know, book entry is just a piece of paper statement that, you know, says you own shares on the books of the transfer agent. So CEOs would say, well, I like stock certificates. they're they look good and and people like holding them in their safe downstairs. And while that is true, it was a very rapid adoption to get rid of stock certificates entirely. Um, you know, DTC, who used to have custody of all the stock certificates, has gotten rid of, you know, quadrillions of of dollars worth of u stock certificates through the years. So I expect this to

be now a faster path to adoption that now we have the right tools in place with the right trusted partners like computer share represents all these issuers and now securitize doesn't have to go to one two three random you know public companies to try to convince them. We're trying to put the technology at their fingertips to allow them to do to do this faster. >> Yeah, it does feel like there's there is a a sense of network effects at play here. Um, we're seeing this idea of institutional FOMO. Uh, we're seeing it from a lot of these players. You know, they they they see some of these tokenized funds now. All of a sudden, everyone's got a digital asset strategy.

Uh, we're seeing this in stable coins as well. Everyone's got a a stable coin strategy from these major banks. AI is another one. Everyone's got an AI strategy. Once, you know, that their research and development department, you know, becomes very active. Uh, that starts to feed into the rest of these companies one by one. And so it makes sense that as tokenization continues to proliferate, look, Larry Frink, you know, the powers at B, these guys are are, you know, shouting this from the hilltops. Uh, and it is permeating the rest of the minds of of uh the decision makers at at these companies. Um, and so now we've got enablement for 60% of the S&P. What's the process for the rest of the 40%? Is it just we're just knocking

down these transfer agents one by one? Well, I so I also sit on the board of the transfer agent association. Um, I'm a big fan of of the industry association and and I know many of the other transfer agents. My my objective from the start of of why I join joined an organization like that is to help modernize, right? We want to embrace new technology. I'll never forget the one of the first conferences I went to, a blockchain enthusiast came and spoke and said, "Blockchain's here. You're all dead." Right? that was that was almost a decade ago and here we all are where transfer agents are in the news now for good reasons right so I I don't believe that blockchain overnight kills all

these regulated entities that serve a core critical purpose but I also want to see all the agents adopt this technology so just like you said every seuite and every board is having a discussion on the tokenization and the AI strategy I expect and and hope that transfer agents are also considering this functionality uh to deploy at scale because you know for us as securitiz the more companies that come on chain and do it the right way where the issuers are the ones that are controlling the narrative and and the shares and the transfer agents are doing it in a regulated way with US securities law we're happy because you know the pie grows there's more activity more capital comes on chain and we get

to do a lot more interesting things >> talk us through just in in final minutes here. You know, the the life cycle here. Now, we have CEOs of public companies that are able to tokenize. They're able to work, you know, directly with transfer agents uh as an issuer to determine what happens to those shares. Uh they end up kind of, you know, proliferating out there. Where do the shares go? And then ultimately, how how do we how do we track them? like not not verifiably, but but how do we how do we ultimately proliferate these shares far and wide? I'd imagine that, you know, there's a value proposition here where, you know, right now, uh, there's there's access that's limited by tokenizing

these things. Not only do we get 247, we also get broader market access. And so, you know, we talked about issuance quite a bit here today because that is the primary the primary highlight. But once these things are issued, just give us a sense of the rest of the life cycle of these shares as they make their way, you know, into these shareholder registries and then ultimately into the hands of shareholders. >> I I think you hit the nail on the head. I mean, the key aspect of of what this, you know, technology integration does is we are allowing shareholders to be a member of the shareholder registry. So how it works today, if I own a share of Apple, Apple's transfer agent has no idea who I am because I hold through a

broker who holds through DTC and then the transfer agent sees one line item which represents the majority of the shareholder registry. So if you're holding in token form, it allows you the chance to be a direct participant on the books of the transfer agent. So you have better access to the issuer. the issuer has better transparency to their holding demographic. You know, who's holding, who's transacting. And what blockchain as the ledger in that case allows it to do is you get to hit multiple ecosystems across the globe. And you know, we frequently say we talk people out of tokenization in some circumstances because what matters is utility, right? Just because you tokenize or you use a blockchain to do

some in-house ledgering, it doesn't mean it's a better ledger. It just means that if you have the right pieces of the puzzle to bring in DeFi, bring in multi-chain access and bridging capabilities, bring in onchain corporate action and governance processes, um, and bring in markets that facilitate legal trading of these securities, then anybody that wants to hold in token form, anybody that wants to engage in this side of the house, they can. But guess what? If you don't want to do any of that, you can still transact as you would today. you can still go to your broker and buy shares and hold them there. You don't have to tokenize. So, I think we're bringing the best of both worlds here and allowing um the the massive companies like Computer Share to

be able to harness the technology to deliver this quickly. >> Yeah. Well, I think that's uh I think that's very well said, Billy. appreciate uh appreciate you explaining not only you know how this partnership works but also just generally you know the the way in which we're modernizing the traditional equities holders uh value you know it it's came a long way from the stock certificates in the in the safes downstairs uh we're putting these things on chain and we're giving back a lot of value uh in terms of the modernization process bringing these things into the modern DeFi world really appreciate you coming on today I know uh it was a last minute thing we made it happen. Uh, thank you for taking the time and congrats on the announcement.

>> Thank you so much, Robbie. Enjoyed it. >> Appreciate it, man. We'll see you next time. Thank you, Billy. And, uh, congrats to Securitize. Pretty pretty epic uh to to see. I mean, guys, this is $70 trillion in value. That's trillion with a T. And so, um, it it it is epic. Uh, these guys are doing incredible work. Securitize once again comes through and, uh, dominates the game. I mean, Computershare is the largest transfer agent out there, 60% of the S&P 500, 70 trillion dollars of market cap. Uh, this was the announcement of the day. Uh, we we bring it to you live here on the rollup the day that these things happen. Um, and

we're we're happy to do it. Uh, shout out to Securitize. Shout out to all the guys at Securitize for making it happen and continuing to shepherd the industry forward as well as go out into the traditional world. Bring high quality equities, high quality assets into the DeFi world. This is what we want. We don't want to be messing around with these lowquality shitcoins anymore. This is the time to bring high quality assets on chain and ultimately improve the entire value cycle that we have here. Guys, what a doozy of a show.

Andy missed a good one, man. Missed a good one. I hope he's getting some waves down there at Bitcoin Beach. Why don't we just do a little recap here, guys? We had Adrian from Portoino. We had Sherem from Trust Wallet. We had Patrick from Serotonin walking through the state of onchain credit. We had Las Coulson from 1KX, our friendly German fella. And then we finished up with Billy. Billy coming at us from securitized. Very, very cool to see. And uh pretty incredible day. FOMC came out. They said rates unchanged. Pal did say that was his last um his last meeting as Fed

chair. He will be staying on as governor. Market didn't really like to hear that. They want Pal out of there. I think we're going to see a lot more uh in a few hours, just about 30 minutes actually, when the market closes, we're going to have earnings from four out of the mag seven. Watch out for volatility. Uh guys, stay on chain. Stay safe. We'll see you on the show tomorrow, same time. Don't go anywhere. Just stay right here. Just watch the rollup all night. We'll tell you exactly what you guys need to know.

Appreciate it. To our team, to all of our guests, guys. Signing off. I'm Robbie. This has been the rollup. You guys are great. We love you. Goodbye. [music] [music] >> [music] [music]