🚨LIVE: Token VS. Equity Debate? Winter Over? Fundamental Assets Leading The Bounce & Bitget CEO In

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[music] [music] [music] [music] Thank Second floor.

[music] We'll see you around the timeline. Feels good to be back. >> I think The Rollup is one of the most premier media brands [music] in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. [music] adding it to my library every day. >> Potentially multi-chain deployments. >> We are at Dev Connect day one here. I'm [music] guessing from base [music] [music] [music]

Heat. [music] [music] Heat. >> [music] [music]

>> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. He said it. He finally said it. I'm so bullish. And he's bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. Heat.

[music] [music] Heat. [music] Heat. [music] [music] [music] Heat.

>> [music] [music] >> Corola is headed [music] to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top.

>> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from [music] all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the roll up. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music]

>> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] Welcome to the next. See you on the show. Happy Thursday from the tokenization tower, ladies and gentlemen. We are winning right now. The balance is coming. The fundamental coins are leading. Our bags are doing well and we are in the right spot right now. We're in the right spot. It is a Thursday before the July 4th weekend. I'm flying to North Carolina tonight. played

basketball with the Plume Boys yesterday after the uh after the show. There's an indoor basketball court and gym in in the building. Absolutely cooked my back. I got double pillow support today. I'm on I'm on life alert. I'm on life alert right now. And we're up. We're up. I mean, Bitcoin's at 612. Hypes above 65. Purr is just kind of taking a but it's going to be all right >> for real. Uh, Bitcoin looks good, guys. I think we're I I I think we're on. I think we're on. Stretch is getting back to that 90s level. We're going to talk about that part of the thesis. Uh, we got a great show today. As always, guys, you're watching the rollup live from the

tokenization tower, the Nest, the financial capital of the world, powered by our friends at Plume. Uh, Plume is building onchain asset management infrastructure with their Nest vault. We're live in the Nest tokenization tower. Good to be back, guys. Happy happy Thursday. Last show of the week. It's going to be a shorter one. We've got Gracie Chen, the BitGet CEO. We're going to talk to her about our our return of fundamentals thesis, token versus equity conversation and more with her. Uh, I think she's going to have some interesting things to say from the centralized exchange perspective. Edward is fired up about lighter. Good to see you here, Edward. From nearly liquidated to now green on Stretch, as I said, I don't think Stretch is getting smoked. I think we're fine. I think we're fine,

and I will continue to say that. I stepped on my headphones. Getting a new one. So, I'm I'm running Alex's uh Apple headphones. It's There's a lot going on here on Thursday in the tower. Uh we got markets and weather and then big uh CEO. As always, guys, all our topics are powered by our friends at treasure. Visit treasure.io. Use code rollup10 to get yourself a free discounted treasure hardware device. Not free, but I'm trying to work on some free ones for you guys. So, stay tuned for that. All right, let's get the show on the road. Before we do, let me tell you about Fracks. Building infrastructure for the future. [screaming] Digital money. Open, stable, borderless. For more information and start using the future digital money, visit frax.com to learn more.

Ladies and gentlemen, it is 94° in the tower. It is 94°. I don't know if you guys saw the news yesterday. >> Actually, I'm for sure going to pull that up before we even get too deep into the show. There is a Russian couple who climbed to the top of the tower yesterday and proposed. The the man proposed to the woman on top of the tower. They got arrested for like six charges. They've been known to do this. They were in a Netflix film as well. Um and it was insane. I'll pull up the tweet. I'll show you guys the video. As always, our markets are powered by our friends at Relay. Visit relay.link to start your crosschain swap journey

today. Visit relay.link. Let's keep it rolling into the markets. Before we do, let me tell you about dinari, our tokenized US equities partner, bringing real world stocks on chain. Visit dinari.com to learn more. Guys, markets look good. Eat up 5%. Soul's up three and a half. Chain link up five. Near almost back up to that $2 mark, up four and a half%. Bitcoin up 2% at 613. And our tokens are doing really well. Uh, Hyperliquid's at 65.4. Obviously, we're huge hypoles. Lighter is at $25.

We've been talking about lighter since it was, you know, less than a $150. So, if you guys have been riding that, you guys have been have have been doing quite well. Aerome's at 50. Looks ready for the next leg up into its uh July news launch of Arrow on Ethereum mainet. Uh Near's up 6% as well. We got that bounce that we were talking about yesterday. Uh and then Zcash is also up 5%. Uh also getting a bounce from those lows. It all is dependent on Bitcoin and Bitcoin strength right now. You know what we want to see is Bitcoin to get that close daily above 62 above 63K and I think then that sets us up for the 67 to 69 to 72 range which in my view would give us enough gasoline to really floor

those tokens that I just mentioned and a couple others. Like I think if we get to that 66 67 68 72 range on Bitcoin in the summer before the probably the inevitable dump to the new lows maybe in the mid-50s maybe a little lower um later in the year then I think that we're going to have a really nice pocket of upside. So that's kind of how I'm thinking about it right now. I'm looking at stretch you know it's at 88. It looks pretty solid. It tapped 90. So again, our our bull thesis was what? It was going to touch uh it was going to touch that 90 level and stay in the low 90s and that was going to be like the bull uh thesis.

And so I think we're looking pretty good there as well. I think stretch has kind of all the fear around it has subsided at least like materially. Um obviously it's still kind of a process but we're going to see kind of what happens. Um, so, uh, semiconductor weakness is weighing down. We talked about this yesterday, how semiconductors are up 94% the first half of this year. I think that trade's taking a big break and I think we're going to get a rotation into the coins. That's kind of the thesis right now. Not sure how long the rotation of the coins lasts. We're still in a bare market. As I say, we have about three to four months left, but I think we have one more good little pocket of outperformance here where our bags that are in long-term bull trends from the beginning of this year are

going to still perform quite well and probably perform probably give us some explosive moves. Like I think the next leg up on hype lighter arrow will be pretty explosive moves. So, um guys, let's get into the news. As always, our markets are powered by our friends at Zama. Visit zama.org or to try out their confidential uh transactions and compute layer on Ethereum. Which reminds me to hit them up for something. Make a quick note there, guys. Edward says, "Andy, saw your tweets about equity tokens, but my understanding is that lighter has equity, too. Do you know if there's any value acrruel to lighter equity holders, but not token holders?" Uh, I'm trying to find that out, but basically they're they have an economic tie to the token, but no legal binding liability to work on the token is from what I understand.

I need to talk to the team and get a better understanding. Um, but yeah, that is still yet to be understood and we're going to talk more about that. So, each nuance case, I'm not sure I have a definite answer for you guys. That's going to take a bit more research. Um, but we're going to talk about that divide. Before we do, let me tell you about Near, your home for building, discovering, and using apps onchain. Visit near.com to learn more about how to use your apps onchain using Near. And then I want to get into the tokens and equity, but hold on. I'm going to get get this uh Empire State thing for you guys. I just want you guys to see this.

So Leo, if we could just pull that up. What about tokenized native equity? Does that make sense? Yes. If you're just tokenizing an equity on the stock market and putting it on chain, that does make sense. That does make sense. And that's completely different conversation because there's not a token and an equity. That is a that is a tokenized version of solely the equity. So yesterday guys while we're on the show like legit as soon as we started the show this happened. Insane. Wow.

They are at the top of the Empire State Building. It says, "When the power of love beats the love of power, the world wins." Look at them. They're not strapped in. They're completely on the top of the Empire State Building, 1,500 ft up, and they got arrested. >> Wow. >> They got arrested. I mean, look at this. This guy propose. He proposes the top of the Empire State.

This is like we're on the 77th floor, guys. So, this is this is I don't know. There's only three more floors up and then there's the observatory and there's a top. This was happening right above us during the show yesterday. Insane. And then they just start scaling this thing and climbing it like what? climbing without ropes, without carabiners, uh without any kind of harness, it would seem uh for this elaborate >> proposal >> protest.

All right. So, so this is a very difficult moment since we're all live and we're trying to process all this because your first thought is what's going on? Why are these people climbing to the top of the Empire State Building? This is dangerous. this is illegal. Okay. And then you see a banner uh all about, you know, love and and peace in the world. Okay. You think they're protesting something, but they work themselves down to the base of the antenna and it looks like he proposes. She says yes, they hug. And now it'll be interesting to see what happens next.

>> I mean, I'll tell you what happened next. These got arrested and they're going to be in jail. I mean, what a bunch of clowns for doing that. The thing is, these guys are like pretty famous. They've done this on Netflix before as well. Like they've done it on Netflix. They have a show. They're like pretty famous. It's kind of insane. It's kind of insane. All right, guys. Let's get into it. Um, token versus equity. Lame. What's up, everyone? What's up, Ojillo? They should have just wrote li on that flag. Exactly. All right, let's play this video from Mike. I think this is a good start to the conversation here.

Tokens with equity do not work. >> We've got to stop doing token equity splits. We've just got it. It's 2026. We have hundreds of thousands of data points to support this. Nothing on a 5year time horizon is up. Most of the stuff is down 90 95%. Even the best tokens that have an equity structure that have been around for a long time, have hundreds of millions in revenue, they're they're flat. They're flat. And and the reason that they're flat is because there's this imbalance. Everything about the token from the airdrop to what you need to do to incentivize distribution partners at sexes or custodians or whatever. It's all sell pressure. And if

you don't have the buy pressure of investors buying the token to offset it, it doesn't work. And it's down only. This is the definition of insanity. We have run this experiment not 10 times, not a hundred times, hundreds of thousands of times. I don't know what else we're looking for here. It doesn't work. Any project, no matter how good it is, there's no project that's so good that it can overcome this misalignment of incentives. It is impossible to work. It doesn't work. We need to put the nail in the coffin. This thing is done. And we're at a moment in time. You know, the future is not written here. Do we want to keep doing this? Is this Is this fun for people? Do we want to keep running up these projects, you know, for six

months and then watch it go down 95%. This is not the world. The future isn't written in stone. We can change this, but it means people have to change. We have to update our mental models for the times. And I know it sucks. It's an inconvenient truth. I don't really want it to be true, but I don't see how you could look at this and come to any other conclusion that this is a fundamentally broken structure and we got to change it. We have to change it. >> Yep. Yep. Yep. So, Mike's arguing that when the ownership and value acrew split between the equity and the token holder, it just doesn't work. And we've seen iterations of this. We've seen uh companies on Salana, the Vector. Fun company that used to be uh that NFT

marketplace on Salana, they sold the company and completely abandoned the token. We saw Axelar sell their company to Circle I think and completely abandon the token and it's just we've seen and now we had Venice do a fund raise and they get equity and tokens and so Mike's right. I don't think assets are investable if there's a token and equity split because you get a very very very direct direct misalignment of incentives. It's just it's just so clear as day now. There has to be a

unification of the equity and the token together because if there's not what you're you don't know what you're buying and there is no there's essentially no shareholder duty or fiduciary duty from the team to their token holders only to their equity holders. And so that creates a big problem. And so where do we go from here? We're going to see teams take it seriously. I predict that we're going to see teams with their equity structure basically wind down their token and issue tokenized equity in their company as the

new form of the token. So existing companies with tokens will wind down their token and allocate pro rata tokenized shares of the equity company of their company as the token and that is going to be the next breakthrough. Hyperlquid already does this. You buy hype token it is one to one equity in the company. You're getting the full benefits of being a token holder. People are asking about lighter today. Do they have the same structure? Slightly different? No, not as clean. People are asking about tokens like Morpho. Morpho does. Morpho, when you buy the Morpho token, you do

get just pure like the the equity is the token. Near is the same thing. Near the equity is the token. And so there are some examples already, but there's a lot of non-examples. And I think that we're going to see this happen where teams wind down their token and exchange it for tokenized version of their foundation equity. A Dow doesn't make sense to me. You need to be the owner of the product, not only the revenue. Correct. That is the that is it right there is you don't just want to be the owner of the revenue of these tokens. You want to be the owner of the actual equity in the company. So that

way that if Axelr sells or Vector Fund sells, you make that you get that you get paid. There's no way in hell that Axelr can sell their company and Vector. Fund can sell their company and Venice can raise money and the the the token holders don't get a massive outsized win because they were right. They bought those tokens because they figure that that there was an exit potential, there was upside potential and they don't get anything. They get shafted. So we go to the next post. This is exactly like what's happening is when you you know in any of the venture scale deals that we've done, right? Um you you sign a safe, so a s a simple agreement for future equity plus a token warrant. And

so if if insiders are signing equity agreements and token warrants, why the hell is retail only allowed to buy the token? Make it make sense. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. Like if all the VCs and the team and the insiders and the advisers have equity in this foundation structure but the retail investors only get tokens. It doesn't make any sense. And so what kind of hit the market hard so how does that sit with hype [snorts] token token holders like us? If I understand correctly hype is a clean expression of this meaning there is no equity and there is no token. It is all one. It is just the hype asset. That is it. That is my understanding. That is my

understanding and I believe that to be the case. Make it make sense. Make it make sense. And and I I I mean, look guys, this is a very bare market phenomena. Like we're sitting here and it's a deep bear and we're all coming to the realization that tokens aren't really what we thought they were. And this is going to change and it has to change and it will and it will because none of us are are going to bid this garbage. None of us are going to bid stuff that isn't like what Aeradrome is doing where it is the entire equity where the token gets the full full value redistribution. We're just not going to

bid it. Why would we? Why would we? The problem is that you are not the owner of Hyperlquid LLC. can't contract devs and make the choices, right? I mean, yes, from that perspective, that is correct. Like there is a foundation that we are not the owners of. But from what I understand there there is no equity portion to hyperlquid. It is just a token. Meaning that the foundation is the owner like the like the foundation that the hyper foundation is just the token. There's no equity. There's it's just a token.

And so we're going to get nuanced responses here to how do you think about this? How do you measure this? How do you what makes a good token? What makes, you know, is token holder revenue something that we need to care about? And we're we're going to get more and more of these questions answered. Brian Armstrong deserves some respect for not launching a base token. Jaime Diamond. Jamie Diamond said that. [snorts] From what I understand, he is not a big Brian Armstrong fan. Put it that way. put to put it lightly. Interesting. All right, guys. We're going to keep rolling into more from Venice here. Before we do, let me tell you about Infinifi. Building DeFi infrastructure to access simpler onchain [cheering and screaming] yield

liquidity, higher yields, no leverage. Visit infinifi.xyz to learn more. So, getting into the kind of spark that triggered this is Eric Vorhees's Venice project. So, they came out yesterday and they said that they're going to have a equity holder and token holder split and Tulip King comes out and says, "Look, man, no matter how you spin it, the terminal value of the token is zero regardless of the business because you don't own the actual business. You own onchain slop in the form of an ERC20."

And so, Eric's saying here, "Equity holders have legal protections. Token holders have, trust me, bro, we'll keep buying and burning." Equity holders hold the majority of the tokens and the token is the largest asset on the balance sheet. The incentives in our case are aligned. It's not good enough. It's not good enough. Eric, I think it's a difficult argument to make that the best use of the revenue stream is to buy and burn a token rather than pay it out as dividends. The best use of the revenue stream is whatever brings the shareholders the most value, but not the token holders. The shareholders, that's the problem, Eric. This was true before the raise and it's true after. So why would Venice buy and burn the token post race? Same reason it chose to start doing before the so so before the race because Venice holds more of it than

anyone else. We're not burning to be altruistic. Yeah, I get that, Eric. I get that. Trust me, I get that. I'm not saying that you are burning to be altruistic, but I am on team. I'm I'm with Tulip King Tulip King here. Like if you split the value between the equity and the tokens, you are going to have to face the consequence of doing that. like teams and VCs own both of these assets. The f the Venice equity holders own both the equity and the token. So they get upside in the form of the token and they get upside in the form of the equity.

This isn't going to last. How can ETH how is ETH going to contend with this? Only Bitcoin can stand alone in this respect. I don't think ETH's for sale. I don't think the Ethereum Foundation or is for sale. I think ETH's fine here. I think you start to look a little bit differently with Salana Foundation, though Salana. So, look, man, I I'm with Tulip King here. I think without direct with without the direct ownership of the equity in the tokenized version, enforceable cash flows, or binding guarantees, the Venice token could easily trade at a discount to VVV, the asset.

And obviously there's token utility for VVV the token you stake it to get compute and to get DM right but it doesn't matter the market's had enough of this and it's going to not it's not going to respect your company if if you don't have the proper setup and aerome question mark I think a drrome safe here there is like a development company for aerodrome all right like it's called Dromos Labs, but they are all in on the token. Their entire equity structure, their entire revenue structure, everything. At least I can say for sure on the economic side,

Aerodrome is in the right spot. I don't know on the specifics of the legal. Again, guys, I'm going to need to like talk to these teams and get a better understanding, but from what I understand, at least on the economic side, it's fully centered around the token. And so I do believe that there is a DRO labs development corporation and that there may be some questions still there. So I I don't know I don't have the exact answer for every token guys, but I'm just kind of speaking broadly here. All right, let's keep going. So uh Lesa Bro comes on and says this would keep happening because uh the only party that gets hurt in these sort of deals are the

token holders. the team plus VCs don't care at all since they both own the equity in the token. This was what my tweet was saying and why I agree and that the only way that this stops is we as an industry start massively discounting any project where all value acrru the equity but also as a token. I agree. I completely agree here and I completely I think this is going to happen. I think it's already happening. I mean you just look at the growth of Hyperlid and you're like why did that happen? Well, because they doing they're doing things the right way, right? It's the same thing. It's the same freaking thing.

And I think that there's a select handful of companies that are doing this the right way. I think there is and I think those companies are going to get bid by the market hard. ETH is not an equity stick in EF. It's gas used to the network and also store value. I agree. I don't think I don't think ETH is I don't think Ethereum is in the same boat as the rest of these right now. I think I think Ethereum's fine. I think Salana though and some of these other L1s I think they have a I think they're in a different boat.

I think they're in a different boat. We're no longer newbies. Value needs to be redirected to token holders. I agree, Ruggret. I agree. >> I firmly agree. Firmly agree. All right, let's keep it rolling. Before we do, let me tell you about LeFi. Uh, building infrastructure for crosschain swaps, bridging, and routing. For smoother crosschain execution, visit lee.fi. All right, so kind of outside of the token holder and equity debate, friend Rambo is a super big lighterable. Why lighter trades 10 billion by the end of the year. That's a crazy target. It's a 5x from here. Uh, they're going for the jugular institutional liquidity, the ultimate moat, not just the decks, the rails for tradi three pillars. US compliance Trefy DeFi Rails Ethereum composability. How does Vlad know what TRDFI wants? He worked at TRFI. Um,

yeah, I mean, he he in this video, this is from the lighter call. So, obviously, we're we've been quite bullish on lighter here. Token looks great. Uh, let's go ahead and play this. And if you guys didn't see on the rollup um I'm actually gonna I'll we'll repin it um on X but on our X page and coming on YouTube later today. I did like a 15 20 minute interview with Vlad about this news um and so it'll be on YouTube later today. Um and it's on X already. You guys can check it out. But let's go and play this video.

>> The big vision and why we're so excited about later. Three pillars, right? One is we're a US company. It's the biggest financial market in the world. We believe it's moving on chain. So kind of being in the US market with a CFTC license is really important. There's a unique opportunity, right? Like there's alignment between in the Senate and Congress. We we've spent a bunch of time with them and also the White House and importantly the agencies. Recently I joined the CFTC's innovation advisory committee. We started the process of getting a license for onchain derivatives trading and folks like us are in the room to figure out what exactly that looks like that'll attract not only retail but institutions right like how do we think about someone like a citadel trading on lighter I mean they would not trade some where without a

license we believe that the kind of architecture we have which is verifiable and open source gives us an advantage to comply with whatever guidelines kind of ultimately emerge the message of verifiability and open source and and transparency has resonated a lot with folks we've met in DC kind of actually in in both parties. Surprisingly, our architecture because it's on top of Ethereum security is the preferred architecture for Trafi. You know, in the conversations we've had with various institutional players. You know, we we've heard a lot of strong messaging around like verifiability and Ethereum security being important. One of the major banks, you know, tokenizes assets, maybe running their own Ethereum L2 to do that. that's going to be composable

with lighter as well. When we talk about full Ethereum composability, right, allow us to do is to reach the goal where any asset on Ethereum can be collateral on lighter. And this even if you put aside the Trati bit of it, like even what's already in DeFi, right? Like it's over 50 billion in assets in DeFi on Ethereum that that's a huge opportunity. Trafi has really started, you know, after 101 15 years to finally understand the advantages of being on chain. >> Yeah, man. I mean, look, I think the tech side is right in terms of the uh sequencer and the ZK work that they've done. I think that Vlad's right there. I think he's got a really interesting uh point as well on the US uh domestic based of the company. You know, they

they work out of Miami. Ken Griffin is also just bought an entire apartment building in Miami. Um, I actually met Ken Griffin's daughter in New York like a month ago. It was crazy. She was out with her friends and I was out with some other friends and we didn't really hang out for that long, but just hilarious. Um, yeah, he's I asked her about the uh Mum Donnie video because Mom Donnie made a video right in front of Ken Griffin's penthouse and like pointed up to the penthouse in New York and was like, "Here's Ken Griffin's $285 million penthouse. We are going to be taxing the rich and he is not excluded." And I

thought it was like a total invasion of privacy and like completely unnecessary. and uh yeah, she made it clear to me that the Griffin family is um is making the move to Miami. So, thought that was pretty interesting. Uh Salana Seeker user here. I love it. Good. Still bearish ETH. Salana will flip ETH. I'm treating ETH like it's my MySpace. Okay. I Yeah, get it. Send it. Pum it. Hodddle it. Just don't miss it. Lighter will flip soul. Lighter will not flip soul. you get her number, Andy, you'll be richer than Sailor instantly.

I did not get her number. I'm not looking to mess around with anyone, especially not her, but it was a fun vibe. I asked So, we actually sent um we sent uh a video of me asking to get Ken Griffin on the on the show. I never heard back uh about it, but it's so funny. I I was like I was like, "Bro, let me get a chance. just give me one chance to get Ken on the show. And so like that was my number one mo Edward. I wasn't interested at all. Uh it was literally just, hey, um can I send a video to your dad? And the guy's like on the jet. And like he responds and he's like, "Oh, not right now, honey. I'm on the jet." Or something. And then we sent

him this video of like, "Hey, Mr. Griffin." Actually, first I was like, "Hey, Ken." And then she was like, "No, no, no, stop. Stop. Redo. Mr. Griffin." I was like, "Hey, Mr. Griffin. How are you man?" Um, you know, I run this show on the Empire State Building, one of the fastest growing finance and crypto shows. Would love to have you on, blah blah. I don't know. You know, I gave him the pitch. I don't think he's coming on, though. I don't think he's coming on, but would be cool if he did. I I just saw he bought an entire condo in Miami. So, all right, let's get into the next thing real quick before we get Gracie up in the show. She's here in the tower.

Rate hikes are looking more unlikely. The odds of a rate hike are nearly back to a coin flip for September's meeting. you love to see that. Um, we we do we definitely want the macro to kind of work in our favor here with Kevin Walsh. Um, you know, he's obviously Trump's candidate. Cool story though. Yeah, it was it was a it was a random night. I was actually out with one of my Australian friends and it was just a funny funny occurrence. Um, so yeah, the total rate probabilities are looking chances are for no no hike, no change. So that'd be great. I mean, that's what we need. We need no hike. We need no change. That's how we're going to get through the rest of this year.

And then we want cuts. We want cuts by the end end of the year. If we can get cuts by the end of the year, that would be great. [sighs] Lighter will flip ETH and hype will flip Bitco. All right, guys. I see we're getting a little carried away here, aren't we? Just a little bit, guys. We've got Gracie Chen here in the tower. Without any further ado, we're going to bring her up. Uh we're going to do our daily equity after the a after Gracie. We're going to close out after Gracie with markets, charts, takes, views for the weekend and into next week and more. So, without any further ado, guys, let me get just a minute or two, give you guys to our amazing standby and I'll get Gracie set up immediately and we'll be right back.

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All righty, guys. Welcome back to Tokenization Tower. After our intro here about the token equity debate and more, we have a lovely guest, Gracie Chen. Gracie, welcome to the tower. Good to have you here. >> It's a great place. And look at the view, >> right? It's great. I'm glad that you made it to New York. Um, it's good to have you here. This is kind of becoming like the capital of crypto in a way. >> Um, and so I'm sure you're busy, so we can kind of get right into it. CEO of Bit, one of the longest standing exchanges serving global customers across crypto assets, commodities, uh, equities, and more. Kind of expanding into this universal exchange. Really wanted to kind of just hone in today on the state of the state of affairs in digital assets because we're obviously

what, eight, nine months deep into this bare market. In every bare market that you've been through that I've been through things change and the kind of common denominator is tokens are bad. Every bare market tokens are bad. Nobody wants to to you know own tokens. And this time it's a little bit different though and I and I'm almost reluctant to say that but we went through this entire period of different types of tokens last cycle and previous and we saw just a lot of frankly retail taking losses for tokens that don't have the right structures for uh insiders for market makers like there's just the whole nine yards. And so we're now in this era where token holders are demanding investor rights in the same way that equity holders are, you know, earning

the rights of their respective. >> They want to have voting rights and go to the AGM annual general meeting >> and they want to know what they're owning, right? And so we're we're currently today at the precipice of what feels like the inflection point of this token equity conversation that we've been having so on and so forth. And so maybe Gracie, just high level from your perspective, what has changed from your view in the way that the token market is now kind of constructing itself uh based on previous bare markets? Where are we at right now from your view? And then we'll kind of get into the nuance.

>> Sure. the tokenized um so first of all I think a big shift that's happening since 2025 until right now is when you talk about crypto it's not just an alternative asset class it's about blockchain it's about the underlying technology that can potentially uh revolutionize the trafi market that is trillions of dollars and then um similarly if you talk about token as you pointed out like lots of altcoins are just losing the momentum and the price either looks like totally like this like just dropping all the way or looks like a roller coaster and that's probably some market manipulation there and uh um and tokens not just all coins like these

but tokenized assets. So RWA is a very important topic since 2025 and we are ob obviously very we're very very pioneering on that since last year we have already tokenized we've already listed some tokenized stocks and um commodities uh tokenized commodities etc and now uh as you point out we offer uh not just crypto but uh forex stocks um ETFs even bonds we started to think about that money market fund of course and preipo stocks so we listed uh SpaceX preIPO stocks together with uh Republic Crypto and and that was in in in April and we gave user a good uh retail user a good opportunity to uh to capture the

game before the the token sorry the the stock is even listed on um the public market. So that's the kind of revolution that I see in the industry and that is a very important one because finally um crypto is not just this small group of community who probably listen to your podcast a lot and and and care about my Twitter uh but now we need to include Wall Street and Trafi and and all these big banks and and lawyers, regulators and and even politicians and and all these people are very very important and and st very important stakeholders in the crypto to industry.

>> Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I feel like that this transition, we've gone from thinking about this asset class for the two to three trillion dollars of existing total market cap as well as the $150 billion that is existing in DeFi in terms of TVL today to well there's hundreds of trillions of dollars of assets that are coming on chain that are going to be tokenized and that will come on chain. And so I think that's a very very fundamental shift that is happening. And by doing that, kind of getting back to the kind of original top of the uh conversation here, the type of investor coming in is different. And this type of investor is demanding a different set of token requirements than previous investors. Retail, you know, when I first got in, I was happy to buy

a token because there was a narrative that there was, you know, some bank might put it on its balance sheet or might adopt it this protocol. But now token investors are demanding revenues. They're demanding redistribution of value back to the token. They're demanding a clear transparent framework for the uh token versus the equity split and they're really just thinking about this asset class from a what do I own and as a token holder am I a first class citizen? So I'd just be curious to hear your view on this transition of the token token economic structure and how you anticipate this new institutional wave of RWAs and new class of investors coming in plus with the regulatory action kind of being more fair and a bit

more positive how that's leading towards a a shift in the way that investors are thinking about tokens. >> There are a lot of questions there. It's u I'll try to cover uh as many as possible but I definitely may may miss some but um I guess the general thought here is when you again when you're talking about tokenized assets it's not just alcoins in terms of a token it's also tokenized stocks and we are seeing many projects especially those who can make pretty good revenue and profit they may not want to list a token instead they want to uh persuade a proper you know IPO kind of path and to be listed in a much bigger market for more

liquidity for more uh better invest investor exposure uh or there are uh cases even like baguette we we had a um we had a platform token BGB but it's it was shifted to uh morph as a layer 2 public chain and and they and morph is managing BGB uh but instead we are actually looking more for an IP PO path. So, so there are cases like like that I think is a key shift in the current industry. And and back to your point, even if it's just a uh it's an alcoin kind of token uh listing um we when we as an exchange list um new tokens, we are very very careful about what to

list. I think the the past week or so, the only token we've listed is an RWA token. Yeah. Uh something like that. So, so we are seeing that kind of shift among exchanges, among the retail purchasers or or traders, among project funders and that's a very important shift that we we need to be more focused on good quality projects and I I've been very um actively promoting this since maybe two years ago. at that time people didn't really care and I've warned on Twitter or or or so kind of very public space on um be very aware of many altcoins may may just be you know market manipulating or or you know memecoin is

by default or by definition a meme and and it doesn't provide fundamental value and you should just consider as that as a speculative uh token I'm not saying memecoin are worthless but uh it's speculation by natural true by nature and and and I don't want every single project to be like a memecoin and it shouldn't be. Um and then uh you investor protection or tokconomics. I would say it's um it's it's a very interesting time to see there are definitely some projects who are trying very hard to be you know transparent um share a lot of onchain and and

offchain data with their community and really build something significantly important. I know you're sharing office with um plum plum network. I'm not going to endorse them by any way, but I think that's that's a good project maybe indicating that they are definitely you know building on something with the worldass um wall street kind of uh uh investors and asset managers and and really trying to find a good product market fit for the industry rather than a random projects just you know sharing a narrative on I don't know AI agent etc. Um and and that's not really creating value for the industry and that will drive if there are more bad players

like like that who just telling story and narrative. I think this industry will die very very fast if we only allow that to happen. >> Yeah. And I think that shift is is certainly happening. I think as I'm saying like the investors are they're demanding fundamentals and I think they will continue to it. Someone in in the audience says that that they love bit and the smart wallet and that you guys are doing a great job with the smart wallet. So props to you. Um, coming back to the potential IPO conversation or just kind of I've been thinking about this where a lot of these tokens that have an equity structure and a token structure are thinking about ways to basically combine these and you mentioned that you know you guys have the BGB asset as well as thinking about

potentially doing a IPO and I kind of had this prediction that I think some of these tokens will actually end up kind of like either like winding down their token and just issuing a tokenized equity of the equity of the company as the new token or figuring out a way to combine the equity of their foundation or their company um with the existing token. And so I you know I'm sure you can't speak on all the nuances of of your plans, but when you're thinking about being a company that has an existing token, but also thinking about a potential IPO path, how do you see these two worlds coming together? um you know maybe for bitcap but also holistically for the industry founders

and companies that have equity and they have a token wanting to figure out the best path to combine these how do you think about that >> that's a tough question and I feel many exchanges who has had issued their own um platform token especially you know four five years ago uh are having the same kind of question and uh the current market practice is to have maybe a layer 2 or a public chain holding that token just like um X layer is managed OKX um uh platform token and Morph is managing uh previously which belongs to us like the BGB token.

>> Yeah. Um and then the the the exchange itself uh uh pursuing you know proper proper uh auditor auditing from big four companies and um license in various jurisdictations like v uh mika in in the u uh in the Europe VRA in Dubai uh MTLS broker dealersco's here in the United States and uh and have a um either go through this path which is more compliant and more regulatory uh friendly and or the other part path which is probably very DeFi very um very unchained sort of uh um alcoin marketplace.

>> Yeah. Um and we are seeing major maybe top 10 exchanges start to diverge on on these two path and uh uh there are at least like four or five of us that's very properly seeking for licensings and and and at least I'm a big believer in that that we think uh we should work together with the governments and regulators to have proper um KYC AML to to do more user productions to be more transparent to share share all the auditing information with both regulators and the public especially three years later when we are listed but as for you know three years later for example when we are listed uh what's what's the BGB's role in that and after

all it belongs to more foundation right now uh but more is a company that we invested in and we incubated so so all these like uh issues I think it's a comp complex >> definitely is >> complex question we need to navigate but another interesting trend we're seeing right Now uh especially by the way after right after this interview I'm heading to NASDAQ. Yeah. >> And uh we are seeing NASDAQ and NYSC like all these uh largest uh p public um marketplace or or listing platforms for tokens. Oh sorry for stocks >> are also seeking uh something either tokenized stocks or even more cryptonative way of issuance which is exciting. Although most of the

conversations there are still at quite early stage and uh and I think they need a lot of supports from regulators like SEC specifically um and and it's still early um but but that future looks very exciting. Yeah. And what does that future look like exactly? I actually shared this um vision which I call 10% vision with um uh Rob Golding who is COO of BlackRock like last last trip when last trip when I was in New York. So we were sipping coffee in his um nice Manhattan office and he just asked me like Gracie what do you see as RWA is going to going to develop into in 2030?

Yeah. And I said okay I have this 10% vision and it goes like this. So right now all the tokenized version of specific asset classes in trady market uh could be uh money market fund, real estate, stocks, um private credit etc. And and the tokenized version of them if you name out sorry if you list out all the numbers versus the traditional finance way that existed for centuries um the penetration ratio is really really small. Now it goes like private credit is around 0.5% and tokenized stocks is only 0.01%.

>> Yeah. >> And and in my opinion they should go to somewhere like 10% in five years four five years time in 2030. Um so so all these conversations around tokenized traditional financial assets in my opinion are very early and we want to build on that in order to drive adoption and drive my 10% vision. >> Yeah that's that's awesome. That's so cool. Yeah I mean we we've been sharing the similar thesis here which is like okay as I was saying there's you know a couple hundred trillion dollars of assets offchain. These assets are going to come on chain in some capacity in the next 5 to 10 years. let's call it 10 to 20 trillion of that 200 trillion and I've just been thinking about who is the biggest beneficiary of this who wins the

most right like if this tokenization thesis is correct you know what companies what protocols what platforms what primitives what captures the most amount of that value and I've gotten a varying you know array of answers from different investors and builders and so I'm going to ask you like you're saying that you know you guys are very focused on this this something that you believe in you know you were just with Black Rockck, they obviously believe it. It's this 10% rule. So, if we get that 10%. Who wins? Which companies win? Which primitives win? Which protocols win? What's your kind of broader view of the second and third order effects of this kind of tokenization wave that is happening? Um that's a very good question and this is the first time because because I'm asked this question like the first time that I start to

think exactly the winner who's going to be there uh three four years time and I think uh there are different very important ecosystem players that's going to be uh needed in this u trend of course is an exchange I would say I would argue exchanges has a say and uh and exchanges are are good marketplace connecting users versus the the assets as well as you know liquidity provider like market makers and institutions. Um but but it won't be every exchange. It will only be the exchanges like us who see that vision who are really putting a lot of effort, resource, human capital

into that vision and really build very good products for our users. um as I pointed out there are exchanges who are diverging in the path we chose. So those who want to do maybe just just crypto or um just um um serve a smaller community who doesn't want to go through KYC or AML I think I think they may not be the proper uh partner for the RWA future that we are seeing here. So yeah, some exchanges and then another group that I'm seeing who will be beneficiaries would be stable coin issuers and stable coin providers. That's why you know two days ago when um Visa etc launched um

the open USD network that drove circle stocks obviously down a lot but either way these players um who are uh the stable coin issuers will be very important uh because what we are doing right now is also enabling all of our users to use stable coin USDT USDC and and USD go and etc in order use use stable coins to trade all the universal asset classes and it is a very important trend that we are seeing. So the second group I would argue uh many of the stable coin issuers who continue to have a strong market share in terms of payment as well as trading. Um the other

group might be projects who are building the protocols projects certain public chains like I feel Solana and maybe Ethereum especially Solana I'm I'm more pro um RWAS and and they also work closely with regulators and uh big banks and uh traffic players on those adoption. Yeah. >> Um so some protocols like that should be also very important. Who else are we missing? Oh, I think uh the most important one is actually community and retail users, >> right?

>> Yeah. which although you know we were just talking about projects and and different players but these people when they have access to all the universally valuable assets yep >> through a UEX like us they get to choose and they can implement their best portfolio management strategy and you know margin using using for example right now we allow our users to use RVDA which is reality's um NV Lydia token tokenized stocks to use that as a margin to trade um perpetuals or sorry to tra to trade other stocks or tokens like like Bitcoin. Um so that's that's

increasing the market efficiency sorry capital efficiency for our user and that ultimately benefit our user and and and traders and community because now they have choices and and they they are um they have access to this more um longer timing sort of 247 market if not our 245 market and and juristic wise they also have more freedom. We are allowing um dozens of countries users uh to access tokenized US stocks which may not be accessible in in their own traditional financial way. Yeah. So totally these are all important players.

>> Yeah. And I think off the top of that on the exchange side I think you know obviously per have caught a lot of traction in terms of their ability to uh list real world assets very fast like like a lot of per exchanges uh on the on the decentralized side hyperlquid lighter variational etc fast lighting the or listing these um assets and then same on the centralized side you guys couple others preipo ps uh traditional commodities stocks ind indices etc and so that's really happening and so I really wanted to ask you this because I saw CZ doing an interview with the Galaxy folks and he was asked about Hyperlquid and he was asked about what he thinks about Hyperlquid and his answer was more around like they have an advantage because they have no KYC and

they I I hope they have good lawyers and I wouldn't want to be doing what they're doing given that I've been to prison and I don't want to go back. And so I'm just going to ask you Gracie, what is your opinion on Hyperlid? Yeah, I have a lot of firebacks when I whenever I talk about hyperlquid no matter positively or negatively. So I made a decision not to comment on specifically hyperlquid. Uh but in general deex and cex or we call ueex uh is still going to be a sort of um bipolar bipolar kind of uh narrative and and rose that that the community will argue. You know, some people just love

DEX that they they they love not doing KYC and there are probably reasons for certain jurisdictions that >> like like we don't serve the US clients, right, as as a CEX. So, so um so US US citizens cannot go through KYC with me at least not now. uh after I launch our US website and and specific US app hopefully end of this year and actually that's one of the one of the reasons I came to New York a lot like this year to do to do the US expansion but at least now we don't serve US clients so so so some of them might go to you know other platforms like like DX >> um and and that's that's a path we chose and and we do uh want to do like I said

earlier proper KYC and AML now and and avoid um any deal do deal JSCCFTC kind of big lawsuit that I don't want to deal with them. So so I want to be very compliant. >> Yeah. But I I think like perpetual futures in general as a instrument are coming to the US >> like uh there we're we're getting the onshoring the CFC chairman Michael Cague is bullish on it. He was on CNBC talking about it. The the there is a race to the onshoring of purpose which I think is super great for everybody. uh they've been, you know, kind of banned for however long now. Um and so I think that trend is is is certainly happening.

>> And I actually have a question here from somebody in the audience who's asking like if you see pers as cannibalistic to the tokenization of RWAs, right? So in the in the tokenization format, right, you issue uh these off-chain assets, then you put a a denomination of it in various formats onchain in more of like a spot format. So like this one to one ownership again varying issuers and providers have different strategies per you don't even need the asset you just need an oracle right you literally just need an oracle for this price and you you know anybody can trade do you see these two things as complimentary or kind of uh conflicting each other >> I see them as comp complimentary uh because perp versus spot has have always

exist in crypto exchanges since I don't know like 10 years ago. >> Yes. uh and people trade both uh in different scenarios and and uh and there are cases like for example myself I don't have time to do a do day trading uh but I have uh there are tokens or or stocks that I'm very bullish on that I want to hold in the long run and in that case I will only trade stock spot rather than um futures because futures you have funding fee you have uh you have the the the risk of being liquidized and uh uh of course there's leverage and and higher return higher risk. Yeah, of course.

>> Um but in general as an exchange we are offering spot and perpetual always like this and perpetuals are synthetic oracle kind of feed u data that that power like the the whole market um and and we see we're seeing the same in in stocks offering at least in the offshore exchanges setting. Um, so in the long run, I don't see perpetuals um being uh so-called one-on-one like spot or like tokenized stocks. But uh um in the specific US market this this may be an important topic that that's continue evolving because um maybe before Koshi

or before uh CME started to list some some perpetuals of or futures of in individual stock uh like very recently like within the weeks right there weren't that many people in the US who trade perpetual dogs, right? >> Uh, and that's um very new thing, especially in the US market, but it's never a new thing in the offshore >> in the global market. We've been doing this for 10 years. >> Yes, we have. >> And also, I mean, if we're being honest, everybody in the US just puts a VPN on anyways and trades on these, you know, so >> but they can't trade on us because we still need that >> KYC and things, right? But that's where the kind of like the DEX angle comes in.

Just kind of uh thinking more broadly as we come to a close here. I know you're tight on time. You're going to the NASDAQ here. When you're, you know, when you first started BitGet, we were obviously a much, you know, niche, small industry. I think it was 2015. >> 20 No, no, I started in 2022, but big was started in 20 >> 18. Okay. So, I I joined 2017, you know, we were just Bitcoin was at a thousand, Ethereum was at like subund, Litecoin was at a dollar. And it was like, you know, it was just very small, very like libertarian, very like anti-government, anti-W wall street. Fast forward to now, the industry is in a bit of an identity crisis because it feels like we one have given up a lot of our identity to Trady in terms of this kind of convergence

that's happened. And then two, this kind of token equity dynamic where like we're all kind of realizing that we don't really have that many highquality assets in crypto. And so we need to really reshape what a high quality asset means and make these assets investable and then also bring a lot of these kind of traditional assets onchain. >> Obviously we're eight months into a bare market and there's kind of this large sentiment gap between the institutional uh deliberations of this technology and the retail or the average investor. And so given that context and given the vision of of what you're seeing for Bit as well as for this industry, what is changed about your thesis about digital assets over the last year or two? What is your updated mental model for where this industry is going? What the uh most

successful exports of this industry are and kind of maybe what this industry may look like in a couple years. >> Uh the the industry may look like couple of years. I I'll answer answer the last question first because we just talked about 2030. Uh my 10% vision. I think that's a good representative of what the industry may look like in the upcoming few years. So RWA, stable coin, payment, real product market fit and emerge of crypto and traffic are going to be the trends as well as AI. >> Um, and in terms of identity crisis, that's an interesting word and you are definitely not the first person who talk about identity crisis in this in this industry with me within this year and there has been dozens of conversations

like that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But what what I feel is u this is just what what things is going to be no matter you like it or not it's going to be like that. It's just like there are people who have identity crisis in the AI era as well like I'm a human being. I'm carbon ordinate. I'm not a silicon silicon kind of human being. I'm I'm a carbon uh human being and uh and when this all this like silicon or AI computer can do so many things much faster much better than I do. what's the value of me and that's another sort of identity crisis definitely >> but I I feel these these kind of conversations share the same moral which is when this industry or when the world

is evolving so fast >> you can't stop this kind of trends yeah you can't stop the RWA trend you can't stop the AI trend you have to follow that trend and hopefully you can ride the the wave and be a important player out there and and do something magnificent So that's how I deal with my identity crisis and uh uh and and be get as a as a as a company. We also pay attention to these trends very closely and think about our position um how to serve our users and and run this marathon together in the long run because it's not a sprints. Running exchange is not a sprint and running a project in the in the industry is also not a sprints. have to have that long-term mindset and

mentality in order to build something great. And if you do, I think right now is the best time, best place in New York, um that you can really achieve something very magnificent and that could be as big as I don't know I sometimes I feel we are in the um um 20th century sort of JP Morg JP Morgan starting up. Yeah. uh era when re lots of revolution are happening in the traditional financial industry and this wave of revolution is a lot about tokenization and we have great position and great opportunities to be on this wave and do something and let's do something together.

>> There we go. There we go. Let's get this IPO done. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Gracie Chen from the tokenization tower. Gracie, thanks to have you awesome conversation. wish you the best of uh the rest of your day at the NASDAQ and guys, we'll be right back covering markets, charts, and recapping this conversation. Don't go anywhere. Thanks for watching the roll up. Happy Thursday. See you guys in just a sec. [music] [music] >> [music] [music]

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>> All righty, guys. How about that? How about Gracie? Try to get her to give us some hyperlquid takes following CZ, but she didn't bite. She didn't bite. But she's bullish, man. And she has the same thesis that we have, guys. I think it's pretty consensus. It's like weirdly consensus, but it's like it's like not overly invested in yet. Like you know, you know what's overly invested in right now is semiconductors. You know what's not is tokenization, stable coins, per these things are just under under represented in the global financial system. Under understood, misunderstood.

GM Rocky, what's up, man? Edward, hope you got your questions answered. New type, glad you are bullish on Gracie. Secretly trading, what's up, man? Tespace X one-armed Bandit. Guys, good to see you. Happy Thursday. Happy July 4th week. What is everyone doing for the July 4th weekend, guys? If you're American, tell me your plans. Tell me what you got cooking. Would love to hear it. I'm taking a flight down to the southern part of the states to see my friends, my brother. Um, I don't want to jinx it, but there may be a new member of the household uh this this time tomorrow. So, lot going on there. But guys, what are your plans?

What are your plans for the fourth? What are your plans for the weekend? Uh, what's going on? How you guys doing? Let me know. Um, guys, let's get a look into the charts, why don't we? Um, so hype looks great, I would say. I mean, 66 66 6602 uh looking ready to break out to new highs. Obviously, this is very low time frame. Um, but you guys know, I mean, we got we got some levels. We have clear levels in my opinion. If we can close this daily up here anywhere in the 65 to 67 range, I think that sets us up for a

really good weekend. And then I think that sets us up for new highs as Bitcoin basically I think Bitcoin again we're fighting this line. Look, we've been fighting this line since early May about 45 days. Uh this is the 20week SMA on the one on the daily chart. And so we we've been fighting it. If we can flip this, it should open us up to 68 66 68 range, which if that happens, guys, I think there's a chance we go to alltime highs on hype and I think lighter continues to rip. I mean, guys, we put out this line on the last couple shows and it's it's been spot on. I

mean, if you guys have been following the show, you guys are making money. >> Like, that's what matters. That's what we're trying to do. We're just trying to help you guys make money in this market and just survive right now, too. I'm I'm just just like a little bit upset about this. I'm just waiting. Like, we got a nice double bottom, >> but PER is just not not holding up. For the first time in a while, the MNAV is significantly lower. Significantly lower. I got to get Capital Flows on to hear what he has to say about this. Significantly lower.

MNAF to hype. Like last I saw it was at like that 1.15 1.2 mark. We're sitting at that N6 mark. Yikes. Yikes. But I mean guys, this looks great. This looks really good. I found it funny that Gracie wouldn't comment on Hyperlid. I don't blame her, though. I mean, it's not it's not necessary. But CZ did. CZ definitely did. It went viral. Did it go viral? Hi everyone. Did the token versus equity debate already happen? Yes, we didn't really debate it too much. In the beginning of the show, I talked about it quite a bit and then

with Gracie, I also talked about it. So, in the beginning with Gracie, I try to get it out of her. She answered pretty well and then I kind of gave my takes and played some videos in the beginning of the show. We'll have more on that next week though. We'll we'll do more on that next week because I think it's really important. Did the CEO of Rocka Away X, the guy who is getting sued for $200 million for fraud, did he just comment soul ticker on my post? Bruh. Bruh. Okay.

Yeah, we we watched this video. It was good. It was good. So, what do you guys think going into the weekend? I was hoping she would. Lol. Yeah, same regret. I was as well. What do you guys think going into the weekend? I mean, on a weekly level, this is uh this looks good. You see this level here, this this yellow line. I know these lines are silly, guys, don't get me wrong, but a reclaim on of this by Sunday night would be extra bullish. So, like any daily or weekly closes um at 63K, if we get a weekly close at 63, I think we're we're basically guaranteed the summer relief that we've

been talking about, guaranteed. Um, which is exactly what we'd want. This is alarming to me a bit. I don't love this, but I think it'll be all right. It'll just have a couple of those days where it's just like exploding. I honestly think Sailor is still just like killing that trade. But I mean guys, this just looks ready man on the daily like you just following this line. It's just like you know it looked like distribution. It's just coiling. It's just coiling. And in these situations you just go with the trend is your friend. And in this in this you just you're at blue sky levels.

You just ride. You just ride. You just ride. Any comeback here. We probably get something back here. Like anything like that is a smash. Is a smash. Any sort of move like this, maybe it comes from a little higher. Anything back down to that $2 level is probably a glaring buy. The only thing for certain this weekend is the dubious speculation upload from Ben Cohen. Yeah, dude. I I love that guy. I love that guy. He's great. on hype as far as buys.

If we break this level with strength and we come back to test the 70s and anything back here back to like this breakout is a buy is a buy. So if we do get a breakout, which I think seems likely, then that pullback is a buy because that may if that aligns up with Bitcoin's charting. And I, you know, guys, I'm thinking about this for like two to four weeks. You know, buy the lows in July or come back after Labor Day. Labor Day is in first weekend of September. So, like I don't think there's that much time here, but I think that because our our our tokens actually look really good. Like I

think because our tokens look really good, we can have a really chance of like a really good chance of getting some really strong moves. Same thing with this, right? like if this thing breaks, which I think is likely, any sort of pullback down here is a buy. So then I think that we go more. So yeah, I mean that's how I'm thinking about it, guys. Um I think we have a good period of time here where we can get some gains. I don't expect a bad weekend. I expect a relatively chill weekend.

Pull up the DXY. It's all about USD. Currently testing support. I hope it breaks down below for our bags. TXY. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, couple ways to look at this just I mean, you guys can tell I'm literally just a basic support and resistance. I don't I mean, I use some MAS, but the question is like, do we hold this level? If we hold this level, then it's not great. If this is the deviation though and we come back into this like broader range here, then we party hard because then we're almost guaranteed to like do one of these and then come back and test the lows.

So if that is a deviation and this candle kind of closes back in the range like it is doing right now, then then I think we hit a party for risk. But if not, then I think this thing could go higher and that'd be problematic. But this pulling back would line up with the summer rally and then a bounce would line up with the end of the year Bitcoin Benjamin Cohen low in October. I'm right. I'm a genius. I'm smarter than you and don't fade me. How's Fogo looking? I near intentious integrated Fogo. Please get Fogo CEO to come to the tower. Okay. I have never interviewed them ever. Um, but I'd like

to. I don't really know what they're doing. What are they even doing? I don't know what they're doing. Yes. At a fog deo. Is that a Brazilian? That's a Brazilian thing, right? Fogo de fog sha sha. So, I mean, guys, I think you know where I stand. Like, I think we kind of nailed this. Um, you know, we had risk on. We had risk on. The only thing I'm upset about is my per underperformance right now. Just like, come on. Like, what are we doing? But I think it'll be fine.

I think it'll be all right. I think we kind of nailed this, guys. I think we have a couple weeks to have some fun. I think we're going to have a lot of fun. And I think this I think hype could go to alltime highs. I think Aerrum does well. Lighter keeps going. I kind of just showed you guys those buys. Zcash is just one of these things where it's just going to like just gonna like chop chop chop chop shake everyone out and then I think it's going to have like a gigascent at some point like honestly it's going to chop chop chop chop chop chop chop and then boom really strong off that off that level needed that so and then Venice is kind of honestly honestly

I'm kind of fading Venice after that news. I don't think that that PR that they got about the raise was beneficial to their company at all. I don't think it was really great. I don't think it was great. So, I'm probably staying clear there for a while. Probably staying clear. So, guys, what an amazing what an amazing week. There's no show tomorrow. Unfortunately, today's is going to be short. It's busy Thursday. We're going to wrap the week here. Um, yeah. I mean, I think we're just going to do our daily equity segment and wrap this thing up. I I think Zama's going to run to 05. I probably think so as well.

Yeah. I mean, we're still fighting that lower high. Let's put in another one. So, probably a little bit more consolidation, but trend is your friend, you know. trend is your friend here. So, not worried about it, but has some work to do chartwise. Such little data here that it's hard to even have a real thesis, but tech-wise, promise-wise, narrative-wise, I think it can do well. Can you get some DeFi leaders on the show? Uh, Unite, Uni, A Sky, get in a update on DeFi will win.

Yeah, I can do that for sure. think we crashed to 54K before rally to the 70s. Beaver says possible, but yeah, maybe to the 70s. You're right. But I think we can get to the high 60s. Yeah, definitely fading Venice. Yeah, I'm just kind of staying away from Venice for now. For now. Related to purr somewhat. Did we talk about ETH Labs this week? Wondering if Bit Miner and Espareholders are footing the bill? Maybe. I know that they definitely invested in it and so maybe they are footing the bill in that way.

But I think Ethlabs is bullish. I think it was important for Ethereum to have something like that. Am I bullish ETH here? I mean I mean [sighs and gasps] I I want to be. Wow. Pump having a day. See now pump is Pump's almost getting to the buy me level like this level here. pump's almost getting to that level just like Salana is going to have that test but Salana kind of Salana has uh has flipped it

daily close here for Soul is huge huge massive massive daily close coming for C when T alltime high yikes yeah I sold my VB to get more arrow just made sense longterm I'm with it where's Rob been he's in Peru he'll be back next though it's a summer. It's kind of getting to be summer, right? And we're like pretty much fully locking in for Q4 into next year. So, you can expect me to take some holidays as well. Going skiing down in Argentina, going to Utah, going to Florida.

I got a couple trips planned for sure. Rob's going to Vegas. We're doing the show in Vegas soon. We also just got confirmation of doing the show at Korea Blockchain Week and tooken in Singapore in October. So that'll be fun. Uh we talking about ETH, right? I mean for me it's like it's almost like a slower version of Salana. Like it needs to flip this level. It's 1830 and like do one of these, you know, that's what you'd want to see on ETH. And then if we got that, then you could expect continuation back up to these like highs and maybe back up here.

But that would be a stretch. But maybe we get back up to this level to 2K. That would be like what I'm looking for on on on ETH. ETH BTC at 025 right now. Always a buy at those levels. sell at 04. I mean, yeah, zooming out, you're right. Does tend to bounce here. This chart is disgusting. So, I like it. What else do I have? Pingu hopefully can bounce. Ser's one of those ones with like amazing tokconomics, but like my goodness, like so much work to do here. Like this is like I mean you're going to miss quite a bit of gains, but this is like

flip this level. You know what I mean guys? Like we're not trying to like shoot for grand slams right now. We have tokens that charts look good on high time frames. You know what I mean? Like these charts look good on high time frames. Why? We're not trying to run and and like hit home runs on stuff that is like that needs work, you know? Like a lot of these charts need a lot of work. This one, I mean, man, as much as I want this thing to fly, it's like it's like maybe flip this level to get bullish to actually like size up and be able to

hold for a spot trade. It's probably the level that I'd want to see. But again, like why would I allocate here or here, right? like when I can just allocate to the outliers that are already winning. You know what I mean? So, I'll take 15 to 20% of this market. I just put more into geode. It's robot crypto. Excellent tokconomics. Geode. Okay. I think this just got listed. Is there a longer chart?

Geode. Geonet. No charts, huh? I mean, just on this. I mean, we got what we needed here. So, that's good. You know, this thing can hold, then I think it can run. But this is a very small chart. There's not a lot of data here. So, hard to really make any any take on Geode. But, I did see that they are making money and they have good tokconomics as well. Let's do some TA for Anom. Oh my goodness.

Here's that Nest token that we had those guys in the show. If hype runs, this thing could pop. Um, is Anom flying still? I feel so sidelined on this. Oh my gosh. Is that seven? Is that Is that 17? Is that 17 cents? Oh my god, bro. Dude, Anto's doing a show today. It's gonna be so It's gonna Dude, that's just going to be just outrageous.

I'm definitely going to watch should be live soon like I don't know in the coming days or coming hours. I do not own any. That'd be great if that would be great if I bought on like the first day or something. I use roll up for as a signal looking for a turn in the market. I'm sure the show is picking up steam getting guests on. Didn't Andre Cronier step down again from from Sonic? Yes, he did. Say hello to Peter Teal when you are in uh Argentina. Okay, maybe I will. Maybe I'll see him on the slopes.

[snorts] All right, guys. Let's get into the daily equity and then let's wrap this show up. Daily Equity is our daily stock market analysis uh segment powered by our friends at Dinari. Let's get into it. [music] There are reports that a ton of things has happened in the stock market today which was yesterday. Met Meta may launch a cloud computing business pushed Meta up 8% on expectations uh it could monetize its excess AI capacity. Uh again guys I'm staying away from the AI bottleneck trade as of right now. I think it's been kind of ran through. Uh then there's this new concept of

NeoClouds. There's pressure from uh Coreweave MBIS and Iron. They fell 7 to 10%. Also the memory trade has slowed down significantly. Um, Palencier CEO Alex Karp was on CBC today criticizing AI labs for overselling overselling models and pushing costly token usage. Look, I'm not saying that the AI bubble is collapsing in any way or popping in any way. But I must say that this whole like open-source pressure from the AI market for these models being so much significantly cheaper and practically the same value is pushing on the AI trade hard. Micron is committing 250 million to Trump accounts as American marks 250th year. Uh it's down a ton today, but that is a very interesting

thing where they're going to give their Trump accounts, you know, young generation in in America basically access and ownership of the equity. And then Robin Hood obviously looks great with their announcements getting deeper into the crypto land. Uh they obviously announced that lighter partnership, the Robin Hood chain launch with a ton of crypto partners, Morpho, Steakhouse, Lei, um Layer Zero, ton ton of others. And so look guys, my read on the market rotation is that that memory trade is kind of slowing down. Uh and I think we're getting a little bit of a rotation back to the coins for that. And I think that just generally that the rate hikes expectations are coming down. I think the AI trade is going to cool down. I think it's going

to cool down hard. Open AAI and Anthropic both uh announced the delaying of their IPOs, I believe, until 2027. And I think we're seeing this massive outperformance on semiconductors, memory, um GPUs, chip stocks. I think that's going to chill out for a bit. It's definitely not over. Certainly not over, but I think if you missed your entries to these trades, you're going to get another significant pullback on on these levels. And so, I'm not FOMOing in here by any means. Broadly speaking, the investing class I think is very bullish and the equities market is going to continue to do well this year. JP Morgan raid raised their S&P target to I believe 7,800 which was pretty significant.

So guys, that's the daily equity powered by our friends at dinari. The semiconductor and AI trade is cooling off and investors in these companies are probably looking to rotate to the next rotation. It's been almost a quarter of this going crazy. I expect it to slow down a bit. I'm not buying. I'm waiting for lower levels. I missed it and so I'll be waiting for lower levels. That's our daily equity powered by our friends at dinard, guys. What a show. What a show. What a show. Robin Hood moving fast. This space is becoming very mature. It's much easier to find solid projects this cycle. I agree. It's like weirdly harder to be a builder and make a bunch of make a bunch of money, but it's easier to be an investor because you just buy the

things that are good. So guys, that's the motto. You know where to find us. Buller Bear. If you guys are watching on YouTube, I see you guys in the chat. Smash the like. Turn the notifications on. Thank you for being here. Hit that like button. It means a lot. Helps us out a lot. Thanks for being here. You know where to find us. Monday morning, 12:30 p.m. Eastern. Buller Bear. It's going to be a hell of a July 4th weekend. I think it's going to be a bullish weekend based on how those dailies are closing, which is exactly what we need on a celebration of the 250th anniversary of this amazing country we call home.

So guys, bit of a shorter show today. That's the end of the week for the rollup. We got tons of content coming out on YouTube this weekend on X. As always, we'll be there. Thanks for rocking with us. Thanks for being a part of the rollup army. You guys make the show possible. You guys make the show way more fun. every single one of you guys in the chat talking, communicating, interacting. This is the bare market version. Just imagine what's happened to us, what's going to be, what the vibe is going to be when we're flowing through 100k Bitcoin again early next year. Mid next year alltime highs. Just imagine.

Just imagine. I I I can't just wow. Ladies and gentlemen, the rollup army, you guys make this show possible. Much love. See you Monday. >> [applause] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Everything.

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