🚨LIVE: Saylor Sells Again?! Pump fun vs. FOMO Onchain. Zerohash CEO & Zhen Yong Call In.

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[music] [music] 17 floor. >> [music] >> We'll see you around the timeline.

Feels good to be back. I think The Rollup [music] is one of the most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie [music] are great experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding it to my library as we speak. potentially multi-chain deployments. >> We are at Dev Connect day [music] one here. I'm guessing from base. [music] [music] [music]

>> [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity,

the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. >> He said it. He finally said it. >> I'm so bullish. And he's bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] >> [music]

>> Heat. Heat. [music] [music] Heat. Heat. >> [music] >> Roll up. [music] It's headed to the top.

If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the rollup. Heat. [music] [music] [music] Heat. [music] >> [music]

>> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. Taste the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] >> Welcome to the next. See you on the show. >> Throwback. We're back like we never. Give me some sound effects. Give me some sound effects. Guys, we are live. Another week here in the rollup from the tokenization tower, the rollup headquarters south in Florida, guys. We've got another fantastic show for you guys today. We don't care how long this apathetic market is going to last. We don't care how long it takes. We're going to continue to build positions, dollar cost average, set some limits, by

by uh that is what we're going to continue to do until this thing ultimately recovers. We are incredibly bullish on uh the state of affairs in the digital asset landscape. Uh we are going to continue to bring you education. Uh continue to inform you about everything that is happening in the world. Right now it seems like memecoins and launchpads are taking the bulk of attention. We're going to show you how you can monetize attention and monetize intelligence on today's episode of the rollup. So guys, thank you so much for rocking with us. As always, big shout out to Plume. Couldn't do it without these guys. They power our tokenization tower and we are going to get live in the tokenization tower again very soon.

For now, we are live from the roller headquarters in South Florida. Uh we've got great show like like we said, let's get into today's topics. Uh markets and weather as always. It's hot, it's sticky. We've got MetaMask director of product calling in. They've got a new product launch. So, we're going to hear what is happening in MetaMask land. And then Zero Hash's founder joins the show. I heard that these guys were uh they were sort of in uh acquisition land potentially. I think they could also be gearing up for a potential IPO. We're going to hear uh from the founder of Zero Hash. That's going to be a really solid institutional uh segment uh as well uh from a little bit later in

today's show. Uh we're going to hear from Edward Woodford of Zero Hash. These guys have been building uh for a long long time. They've been building infrastructure in the space. No token, but uh they support so much of the institutional buildout that is happening across uh newly founded brokerages in digital assets. So, we're going to get into it. Uh we've got a fantastic show for you guys today. We appreciate you guys sticking around because uh there is plenty happening underneath the surface. Even if you're just looking at the charts and you're saying, "Guys, Bitcoin is still at 64."

I feel like a lot of you would actually be happier if Bitcoin went down, give us that final wash out, that final leg down, and finally let us get into some trends where the market actually moves one direction other than sideways. Uh but that's where we're at right now. We're just in this grueling sideways chop market. Uh so the only word of advice, not financial advice, is to not get chopped up. Um, let's get into uh our news segment for today. We're going to tell you guys about the markets and the weather. But first, let me tell you about one of the protocols that is bringing the next wave of asset classes on chain. That's going to be Dinari. Uh, Dinari is doing everything that they can

to tokenize the equities asset class. Uh, you can go to app.dari.com uh so that you can trade tokenized equities. It's incredible what they're doing. They're doing things here regulated in the US, opening access all around the world as well as in the US the right way with the proper licenses, with the proper regulations, tokenize the entire S&P 500 with more assets and beyond. Um, fantastic mechanism as well. fascinating tech uh because they actually have a smart order router that is going to route your trade to different clearing houses and market makers depending on what time of day and whether the market is open at that time of day. So very sophisticated tech, but

this is sort of the hoops that you have to jump through in order to do things the right way with broker dealer licenses in the tokenized equities world nowadays in the US. So dinar is doing fantastic job on that front. Uh as always, we've got our weather segment sponsored by Relay. Uh they're doing fantastic things as well. And today it's sunny without a doubt. Little windy off the Gulf, but uh I mean, man, beautiful. I just I I like the I like the warmth more than the cold, you know? Go outside, get a tan, feel the warm sun on your skin. Nothing better. One armed bandit. See you out there in the chat.

Appreciate you, my dude. Uh, One Armed Bandit, you rock. Little Miss Gun, you rock as well. Thanks for being here. Thanks for tuning in, guys. Don't get chopped up. We're going to be here day in and day out. And I'll just DCA. I'll just DCA all the way through. Little Miss Gun, Florida for the win. Appreciate you rocking with us. I think you're in Orlando, so not too far away there. Let's keep moving along. We've actually got a fresh new Fracks segment that we want to share with you guys today. Let's go ahead and play that. Then we'll get into our market segment for the day.

So, I'll I'll tell you what uh what we're seeing out there in the markets. Obviously, majors here are red. Uh not too red, but Bitcoin over the weekend was upwards of 65. ETH was tapping on the door of 2K. didn't quite get there. Uh in the 1900s though, Fallen broke that level near holding on to 160. Chainlink uh interestingly had one of the standard chartered uh callouts where I believe Standard Charter was calling for $200 price target on chain link. Uh so the link marines were certainly happy about that. We also saw Standard Charter uh make some bold claims for some other coins in the market. Uh chain link obviously paving the way on the regulatory front with clarity. We know

that clarity has now been pushed to September, but it's actually on the floor for a closure vote. So, right at the bell, we did get some forward progress on the Clarity Act. Um, it's just going to take a month when the senators come back from recess to see how that resolves. And then we obviously had uh one senator toasting the destruction of Clarity Act. I don't think he got the me memo, but uh regardless, Chainlink uh pushing regulation forward on behalf of the entire industry. Uh we continue to support chain link on this show. Uh and really cool to see the standard chartered call out as well early Monday morning, but across the board majors are down uh flat to down. I mean obviously

this is just I mean this is chop relative to the kind of volatility that we are used to in this space. Um and so just real choppy market, sideways crab market. Uh the only thing to do here is to to not get tied up in some of these short-term movements. Uh you know these short-term movements, you know, maybe they fluctuate one up, one down, but you know, they can last for weeks or months. And so the most important thing here is that the market is teaching you patience. You want to express the opportunity to be patient. Be patient. Be patient in this market. Uh don't get too caught up in some of these smaller price movements. Uh look, the thesis remains the same. Now is the time, one year, two years from now, we're going to

be looking back on these prices and and just considering how favorable they are in hindsight. But obviously the question is how long this will last. Um the lack of volatility and the lack of any sustainable momentum signals that, you know, we could be uh gearing up for one more leg down uh or we're just going to continue to steadily chug higher. I don't know. I don't know where we go from here, but I do know that the low volatility environment of digital assets right now is unsustainable. Uh the market will have to move in a trend one way or the other. Uh it's just a matter of time before this thing breaks up or down. We don't know. And I know it's a

little bit un uh uh unsatisfactory to hear, yeah, the market's either going to go up or down. But the reality is that this thing is just coiling up, coiling up uh and it's going to move with volatility in one of the directions or the other. There are a couple strategies out there just for educational purposes where you know you can express a position on volatility increasing. Uh typically this is done with options. not advocating for you guys to use options if you're not, you know, a professional trader, but you can buy uh out of the out of the money strikes on both calls and puts if you're not sure where the market's going to go. Uh but you are betting on volatility in coming months.

You know, you can go two months out, uh buy something that's out of the money to the up and the down. And if it moves one way or the other significantly, uh then you're going to end up doing quite well uh by getting that volatility call correct. Um, that's one way to do it. Another way to do it, if you have the patience, is just to continue to stack positions in these price ranges, uh, because like we like we talked about, in a couple of years, we're going to be looking back, uh, we're going to be looking back at this moment and these price uh, these prices with favorable terms. So, uh, guys, that is what we're paying attention to in the markets. Uh we're also seeing memecoins heat up in kind of like the alternative altcoin

complex here. Not quite the DeFi coins, not quite the majors, but if you look further down the curve, uh there are opportunities at at play here. Uh we're going to be talking a little bit more about all the developments in FOMO, pump fun. These are the kinds of things uh that we're going to continue to hear about. Uh appreciate you guys rocking Kings Clips, dubs in the chat. Yes, throw us some dubs in the chat. And uh Edward as well, Mike Celic, announced a meeting for August 20th. And uh that's good to see Edward. We know you're a big PERS bull and uh we are excited about what is to come out of these meetings with the CFTC. Um and so very very cool.

We are excited uh around everything that could be happening with PERPS in the US. Uh I think this is a big development that could unlock even more liquidity. Uh summary here is that risk is caching a modest bid. Oil and inflation are still holding the steering wheel. That does bring up a good point around uh some macro data that we expect uh as the week goes on. We're going to get some CPI data and I think uh the market could be uh anticipating some of that inflation data coming in. We don't know what it's going to look like. Uh but I think there could be sort of this riskoff moment that we're facing here early in the week and then see that risk uh go back on the table later in the week. So again, if you're DCAing, uh

these are, you know, uh things that I think we're going to look back on quite favorably uh in the near future. With that being said, we're going to get into our news segment. Uh so we're going to tell you guys about Zama uh as well uh because they power the market segment and uh they're doing incredible things in the privacy world. Uh obviously as well part of the the privacy world is Near and Zcash. Uh Zcash just I mean is incredibly strong uh if you measure it against Bitcoin. Uh Bitcoin is being pretty much a stable coin at this point.

So, um, if you guys are been around a long time, and I think a lot of you have been, um, well, you know, denominate in Bitcoin, denominate in some of these things, uh, that have been around a long time that you want to continue to stack in. I see the chat acting up. Appreciate you guys. Need FOMO and P fun contract. Little Miss Gun, uh, yeah, Kings Clips, you're not wrong there. That would be very cool. When rollup trading group, one-armed bandit as well. Uh it's time to get excited again. We certainly agree with that. Now is the time to pay attention. Uh let's go ahead and run our next partner which is Near. These guys have been uh great friends of the show for a long long time. They continue to

talk to us about equities or excuse me about AI uh which is you know of course what we've seen in the equities market. Uh and they are leading the the the way on the AI crypto front. And so uh these guys are great to pay attention to. We got dubs in the chat. You guys are putting in the work. Uh nears uh great recommend trading on them uh because they give you a bunch of incentives. They also got this 333 campaign going on. Uh big reward pool that I think everyone can take part in. Uh big old commulative community uh campaign that they're running. Now, let's go ahead get to our news section because we've got plenty to cover before our first guest in about 25 minutes.

So FOMO is taking the world by storm. This is the heart of the debate on chain on the timeline these days. Uh Scooter here I think correctly frames sort of the straw man of FOMO here which is that uh you know the the bearish case on FOMO is that it's not particularly innovative uh despite the level of distribution and product market fit that they've been able to find. uh relay rapper called FOMO is making over 600k revenue in a day. App is vibe coded and all trades go through a third-party app called relay.

Obviously you guys know relay because uh they are a partner of the show. Uh little known fact is that relay actually services the technology underneath FOMO uh which scooter is saying look you know all the value is essentially acrewing to relay anyway. FOMO is just a wrapper on top. Uh, FOMO has been able to get the distribution. Uh, the app pretty much created nothing new, just increased trading fees and got Kells into the seed rounds. That's a pretty reductive uh, point of view on FOMO. They've obviously uh, they're making tons of revenue. Uh, they've obviously been able to reach some product market fit. This is what extraction looks like. All the grifters are now getting paid to shill FOMO. I mean, I don't know. We haven't really been solicited by FOMO to be shilling

it. master class on how easy it is for Koss to make money by just mass promoting vaporware and onboarding onboarding idiotic gamblers to use it. Um, look, I mean, I don't know if this is really the right take. FOMO has been able to reach significant product market fit. Um, I have uh normie friends that are reaching out that are saying, "Look, uh, FOMO is actually the real deal. It makes it easy. user experience onboarding, even just a rapper can actually be an incredibly useful tool and application. And we're actually seeing this value acrruel phenomenon play out in multiple industries. I'm sure you guys have been keeping track of AI. The frontier models are becoming commoditized. Compute is becoming commoditized and tons of the value

acrruel is flowing to the application layer and that's exactly what FOMO is doing here. So I think you can't argue with the data. Look at that revenue chart. It is s I mean it's just up and to the right. There's no doubt about it. So don't know how sustainable this revenue is. I think they flipped hyperlquid in 24hour revenue. So this thing is absolutely raking it in. Uh and you heard that you know they have uh you know none other than relay that is helping to support this application. Um and so that is kind of the download on FOMO. Uh I mean daily fees rising to nearly $600,000 in early August. FOMO combines self-custody, mobile trading,

social feeds, leaderboards, and onetap swaps on Salana with crosschain routing through relay. So that's effectively how it works. There's another uh tweet that's been going around which is just that you know the successful apps nowadays are combination of uh like relay, privy and uh stablecoin uh or another third party there. So I mean look, we know the infrastructure and the user experience that works, right? And so the applications that tie these all together and maybe provide even if it's just distribution channels to acquire users into the infrastructure and the user experience that works. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. We know that this is what people like to do. We know this is the UX that users enjoy. Don't overthink it. Just bring people to it.

Broaden awareness for it. That's exactly what uh the industry is looking for. So that's kind of the two cents on FOMO. Um if you guys haven't tried it, we're uh we're experimenting here at the rollup. Um and so expect more to come on FOMO. Let's go ahead flip to our next one, which is sort of this uh lovehate relationship between FOMO and Pump Fun. So Pump Fun obviously is a launchpad here. Uh, FOMO is, you know, a wrapper on the launchpad, but you can also go to Pump Fund directly, um, in order to, you know, get exposure to the launchpad. Uh, and so,

you know, why would you go to FOMO versus going directly to Pump Fun? Uh, there is a user experience benefit. You know, there is, uh, some of these different uh, application benefits that you get from going to FOMO rather than Pump Fun, but underneath you get access to all the same markets, all the same coins. Pump Fund is paying FOMO users $30,000 a month to move off of FOMO and onto the Pump Fund app. Very predatory terms. Uh and then they list this letter that supposedly someone got. We don't know the authenticity of this letter. Uh but we suspect that it's true.

So CLR FOMO here leaks the contract uh showing that Pump Fund offered some of these users a $20,000 signing bonus plus 30,000 monthly retainer. uh in order to migrate off of FOMO go directly to pump fund obviously this is what's happening here uh Salana is also one of the primary benefactors of this and you see totally of salana just endorsing FOMO uh I don't think that FOMO and Pump Fund are as competitive as it's making it out to be I think actually a lot of the launchpad mechanism is done from Pump Fund sure FOMO is kind of the rapper on top but a lot of that leverages the Pump Fund launchpad underneath And then obviously the relay uh API uh in order

to swap into those new coins. So uh this is what is happening. I mean it's pump fun plus relay plus I think privy. Um and so yeah this tweet points to the launchpad rivalry uh the intensifying competition among Solana and memecoin platforms as Pump Fund tries to capture FOMO social and copy trading user base. Pump Fund obviously has been around a long time. People are looking forward to the airdrop, suspected airdrop. Uh, and then obviously Anom and Mike Dudas have been kind of taking over the uh, the memecoin narrative as of late. Uh, Mike Dudas has embraced Toad. Anom has his black bull coin and these guys are

monetizing attention. And the way that they're doing it is quite unique. It's pretty creative. Um, what they're doing is they're endorsing a coin. uh you know, maybe they bought it or maybe someone sent them a large portion of the supply. Uh they're able to kind of rake in some cash on trading fees uh because they do get a proportion of those, but then they're also, you know, they have a large portion of the supply. Essentially, if they nuke any of their supply, if they sell any of it, it ends the game. They can't sell any of the supply um if they want to keep this thing going. But what they are able to do is distribute some of that supply to their community and then the community can dump it on small relative basis and they can make money. Their

community can make money and uh Anom, Mike Dudos, anyone else who employs the strategy can monetize their attention by giving away money to their community and distributing those incentives and when people swap in or out of it they can uh they can make money from the trading fees. So it's pretty cool. Uh this is a pretty unique novel campaign idea. Um actually uh my co-host Andy and I were talking about this over the weekend and it sounds and it feels a lot like Mr. Beast or Steve will do it. You know these guys that go out into the streets or they host game shows and they give away a ton of money. Uh but what happens is that they get the money from AdSense, you know, YouTube monetization because

advertisers pay for advertisements on those videos, right? And then they use that money that they get from the ads, right? And they redistribute that wealth into the hands of their fans or their community. Um what memecoins do in this case is just cut out the middleman, cuts out the advertisers, cuts out YouTube or any other social media platform, and it lets the creator, Mr. Beast or Anom or Steve will do it or Mike Dudos literally redistribute the wealth directly to their fans or their community. No intermediaries. So, it's quite a novel mechanism. It's honestly very cool from the point of view of financial experimentation. I don't know how sustainable this is, but it is possible that this thing catches on. There's

bigger and bigger creators that continue to do this. the fans in the communities get involved because they see the opportunity to make some money uh and follow their favorite creators. And so I could see this catching on and and it's pretty cool that this is happening in the depth of an apathetic market because it adds a little fun. It adds a little creativity and financial experimentation to the entire industry. So I'm for it. Um, I also missed out on the NFT era pretty hard and so, uh, I have a little FOMO for FOMO. Uh, so I'm paying attention. I'm paying attention. I don't know how sustainable it is, but, uh, I'm at the very least paying attention.

Uh, let's keep moving along. Uh, we are going to tell you guys about, uh, the next headline that we have here. Uh, before we do, we're going to tell you about our next partner. Let's go ahead and run it. Yeah, next partner is 1 in and uh these guys are doing incredibly well on the Ethereum landscape. You know, Uniswap also launched a launchpad. Uh so obviously you have this relay pump fund, FOMO, memecoin launchpad complex on Salana. 1 in effectively does what relay does as well, but you know these guys are Ethereum focused. They also have the new Aqua shared liquidity protocol which allows you to provide liquidity uh to multiple liquidity pools at once. I would say 1 inch if you're using a LP.

If you're an LP and you're looking to maximize your yield, uh 1 inch is a great venue. If you are looking to swap uh or integrate a crosschain protocol, relay is also fantastic. Um let's go ahead keep moving quite along here. Uh this is something that you know our memecoin trencher community may not have heard too much about. Uh because this was something pretty significant happening in Bitcoin land. And sometimes the trenchers and the Bitcoiners, they don't really see eye to eye or really listen to one another. And so we're going to tell you guys what happened in the Bitcoin world. Uh for anyone who is unfamiliar, there was a proposed hard fork. This doesn't come

around every day in the Bitcoin community. So this is kind of a big deal in Bitcoin. The last major hard fork was Bitcoin Cash back in 2017. Uh it created Bitcoin Cash which I think is still like >> I mean it's still got billion dollars of market share if I'm not mistaken. Uh it's still very much alive. Yeah.$4 billion dollars of market share. Um number 22 uh by market capcoin. So these um hard forks are very real. Um and so let's go ahead and take a look at what happened with BIP 110. Eric Wall does a fantastic job framing the context,

explaining the story, explaining what happened and the resolution that we ultimately arrived at. Um, and he says, uh, that he's posting this here. Most crypto followers outside of Bitcoin don't know this, but there was a spam war on Bitcoin. This was effectively this BIP um, ordinal uh, people that were using the metadata of blockchain to encode uh, JPEGs, pretty much NFTTS. And this is where we got uh like the whole taproot wizards phenomenon and ordinals phenomenon. Uh there was a soft fork soft fork in Bitcoin that allowed them to do this. Some people in Bitcoin had a real problem with this. Other people they were like, "Hey, this is cool. We like this." And so they have been kind of at odds for a while. They Eric is

calling this the JPEG spam war on Bitcoin. Um, and so, uh, what happened over the last few years is that Bitcoin maximalists who were driven insane by the JPEG spam era, circa 2, 2023, 2024, have only worsened. Obviously, he's alluding to the soft fork initially that put this into place. Uh, there was people that took a real problem with this. They just continued to beat the drum and say this isn't good for Bitcoin. Uh, he's saying that they got driven insane over time. Uh it started as an annoyance over JPEGs eventually led to a complete trust collapse from the JPEG hater community towards Bitcoin Core. And so these people that thought that NFTTS and JPEGs didn't belong in the Bitcoin blockchain, they got mad at

the Bitcoin Core developers. They said, "This needs to change. We need to put forward a proposal that changes the ability to encode JPEGs into the Bitcoin blockchain." So they distrusted Bitcoin Core. It escalated into a full-blown conspiracy over Epstein files and total hysteria uh and is beyond recovery your saving. Let's go ahead scroll down here. Uh so this was irreconcilable. The only way to fix this was a hard fork. Uh the BIP 110 is the name of the hard fork. The people that supported this hard fork were saying that look, we're going to propose this. uh this was obviously like the right way for Bitcoin to go and so

we're going to go forward with this. It's going to get approval and then we're going to take the ability to put JPEGs into Bitcoin out of the protocol and this is going to become the canonical chain. Turns out that they put this BIP in this Bitcoin improvement protocol in called it BIP 110. Uh it has approximately 2% minor support. No exchanges supported it. Uh it was quite popular in the Bitcoin maximalist echo chamber uh as some sort of like hey this is pure Bitcoin. It's not tainted with all these NFT JPEG things. So they went ahead and they tried to do this hard fork but it turns out no one wanted it. Uh they tried to filter the JPEG spam spam. Um it wasn't effective actually at even filtering the

spam even if it did go through. the position was like, "Hey, you must support this uh because it's obvious uh that you know it's the right way to go for Bitcoin." But ironically, the whole reason that these filter campaigns never guarded consensus was because the knowledgeable people knew that attempts would always be ineffective and BIP 110 is just further evidence of exactly that. And so Eric is calling this the end of the JPEG spam war. He says it was a fun chapter. Uh thanks to everyone who participated. Uh, and he says, "FAQ, uh, do I, as a Bitcoin holder, need to prepare or do anything with this new BIP 110 Bitcoin coin?" Uh, turns out no.

Nothing happened. No tangible impact on any system. Carry on. Turned out to be a complete nothing burger. You had a whole cohort of the Bitcoin community, notably Hodlot, uh, who was calling for, uh, he was actually the guy who sued Craig Wright a while ago. So, he's got some lore to him. uh in the Bitcoin community. He has a little bit of a reputation and a legacy. Uh he was a big proponent of BIP 110 uh but he fell by the wayside and uh was defeated uh and Bitcoin core continues to carry on uh and uh can continue to put JPEGs into Bitcoin and that's the way it's always going to be. So that's a little bit of update on BIP 110. turns out to be a huge nothing burger. But uh if you have Bitcoin in an external wallet, um you

will actually see a new coin. Uh and I remember this from Bitcoin Cash. I held my Bitcoin. Um I think I had a little bit on an exchange at the time and a little bit in an external wallet. Uh and then you're able to see uh that you have this new coin in your wallet just appears almost out of thin air. Uh so it's pretty cool. Uh it's kind of like the OG airdrop. Um I don't know. Um let me see if there's actually a market if you wanted to sell your BIP 110 uh Bitcoin. I don't even know if there's a market for it. So it's really it's really not valuable at all. Bitcoin Cash obviously carries a lot of market value uh because there was a significant

population of Bitcoin that thought this was the right way to go. Much less of the population feels like BIP 110 is the way to go. So, it's much less valuable, much less of a fragment of Bitcoin's valuation has gone forward uh with this BIP 110 chain. Uh so, that's a little bit of an update kind of where we were and what the status of it is. Now, let's go ahead uh and continue uh to our next one, which is very related. We won't spend too much more time on BIP 110, but uh Lyn Alden, who is a fantastic follow, says uh pretty funny Breaking Bad meme here. Again, this is pretty much what happened. So, some of the anti-PAM Bitcoiners made a fork of Bitcoin, but it still let spam

in. Uh again, you know, we knew this. We knew that Bit 110 wasn't going to effectively filter out the spam, so why go through it anyway? uh then they kept assuring people it would become consensus meaning that the miners and everyone would mine with BIP 110 uh blocks but even though it had minimal economic support from the start uh so it was kind of failed from the beginning um this was never really going to take place and so just let's just scroll finish out this meme here uh today they forked off and neither miners nor exchanges nor anyone else followed them I mean the whole point of Bitcoin it's hard to change. Uh, and then Walter here says, "Chesse, what are you talking about?"

Uh, because it's much to do about nothing. But, uh, for all of our Bitcoiners in the audience, uh, you guys have seen hard forks before. You know how this thing goes. Um, and so this one was actually relatively, uh, just fun to watch uh, because uh, it wasn't particularly contentious. Uh, let's continue to move on. Got a couple more things that we want to get through here uh before ultimately getting into daily equity segment and our guests for today. Moon Overlord great follow front of the show. Don't think at least that I can remember there being such a large juxiposition in the token quality in the market. We have $50 billion ghost chains and we have three

or five coins that make legitimate revenue. Um yeah, I mean $50 billion ghost chains is huge. Um, I can scroll through if we want to just get bearish and toxic for a moment. I can scroll through and just say, you know, what chains don't belong where they are. Um, so we'll leave aside Ripple, Tron because they Tron actually makes money. Uh, but then you've got LEO tokens, like the exchange token for Bitfinex. You've got Cardono. You've got White Bitcoin. You've got Stellar. You've got uh let's see um let's see I mean Hideera Sweet these guys are at least alive and building uh you've got Kronos the

cryptocom blockchain uh you've got world liberty financial hx Dow a lot of exchange coins in the top 50 here uh we just talked about Bitcoin Cash right so you know these coins exist stable coins that are up there um I mean these are ghost chains internet computers is $1.2 billion of market value. What is it doing there? Right? And then uh the juxtaposition here is that we have three or five coins that make actual revenue. Uh you know can point to hyperlquid lighter pump funer drrome sky. Uh you can even put some of the OG defi you know unis swap chain link athena

like there are some legitimate coins out there. uh pump fund. I don't know if I mentioned that but obviously in this day and age um coins with revenue uh buy the token back hype lit outperformed all year. Pump is now outperforming heavily. It's asinine to even call it the revenue meta but I don't know any other term for it. Uh we do uh endorse the term revenue meta here. Um but this is effectively what's happening because you know you've got all these coins taking up market share in the top 50 coins, top 100 coins. That'll do anything. They're ghost chains. They don't have any value whatsoever, but they carry market value of billions of dollars. And then you've got this collection of like a dozen, maybe 10 to 12 coins with any remote

form of product market fit or revenue. So call it revenue meta if you want. We had such a glut of trash and for a long time the pitch was opium and dreams that worked for a while, but the industry was in its youth. But you can only dream for so long without anything tangible. If the team can't buy their own token back, why should I? Um, look, Moon is right. We have a saying here uh that there is going to be uh leaders, the ones that are outperforming now are going to continue to outperform. Um, there is still a decentralized money thesis. This applies to Bitcoin and it sort of applies to ETH and Zcash. It doesn't really apply to anything else. And so

you could try to make that argument, right, that you know the $50 billion ghost chains have some sort of Jevans paradox network value at play here. But that is just deteriorating. And we believe that there is a consolidation happening in digital assets. The companies, the protocols that are generating real product market fit, real value, and real revenue will end up subsuming all of the market value that is currently uh in these ghost chains. And so you could take the pessimistic view here. Uh the perspective that you know we've still got a lot of you know market value deterioration to go. That would be an argument in favor of you

know this bare market continuing. Um or you could look at this and say look the market is consolidating. the $50 billion of market value will ultimately make its way from the ghost chains to the products and protocols uh that are creating value and generating revenue. That is the more optimistic perspective. It will take time for this to go undergo this transition but ultimately we believe that this market value will shift from the ghost chains to the revenue generating protocols. Um, and this is an incredible development because it would mean that you have all this market value in, you know, widespread out. Uh, but there's only a handful of companies and assets that

this large value could flow into. And so we could see um just big big multiples uh as it pertains to the right coins. And when you're asking yourself which coins are the right coins, well, Moon here says there's three or five of them. Uh he mentions Hype and Lighter. Um there's a few other ones that I mentioned, but generally it's the coins that um are generating some revenue, right? And they're using that revenue to buy back their own token. They're growing and they have some product market fit. Um and there's just very very few um coins out there that can actually consider themselves money. Um Bitcoin is that uh Zcash is that increasingly so. Um and it's really even

difficult to make that argument for Ethereum these days. So uh that is what we're seeing out there in the markets. I think Moon lays it out incredibly well and uh that is the juxtiposition that we are faced with as this market transition from a bear to a pre-bull into a bull. You want to be positioned in the assets that are uh capitalizing on the consolidation, not at risk of getting capitalized. Let's continue. Uh we've got a quick little shout out to our friends at Zama. These guys are also doing incredibly well. Uh I think they're in a position where they may not be, you know, generating revenue and putting it back into their own token, but these guys have product

market fit. They're on the tokenization forefront. They're working on confidentiality and they're using revenue to grow. They are producing revenue uh and they're using it to grow. So obviously you don't want to leak value as a token holder but there is this concept of growth coins and you know dividend coins if you will. This is what uh is happening in the equities market. It only makes sense for this to happen in the token market as well. Uh and Zama still feels incredibly early to this entire thing. Uh one more thing that we want to share with you guys today is uh daily equity. We want to share with you guys daily equity or before we do actually per boring business. Will pump fund ad per uh no doesn't seem like it

seems like hype and lighter are uh are kind of owning that stack. You know you seem variational and then you see some of these institutional plays uh that are getting involved but it seems like you know the the launch pads they're not going to really continue to verticalize in every regard. There are some segments that despite being early, there is enough of a first mover advantage that others are owning market share. Uh so doesn't look like Pump Fund will uh implement PERPS. Um we've got a video here. We've got our first guest in the back. Why don't we skip the video? Just go directly to Daily Equity uh so that we can get to our first guest who is going to be joining us and discussing MetaMask.

But first, Daily Equity. >> [music] >> All right, guys. This is Daily Equity powered by Dinari. We actually want to share with you a clip from our segment with dinari's founder Gabe because this was when they launched in the US and uh he has great commentary on the current state of the equities market. Let's go

ahead play the clip. you guys already saw this if uh you know you were watching this live but let's go ahead and uh play the clip of Gabriel Au explaining what is happening in the equities markets for daily equity >> everywhere uh you can start owning uh these uh stocks and we're going to start seeing centralized marketplaces like NASDAQ and NY take less of an important role. That's my boldest uh prediction. Um because a single company like SpaceX, especially at, you know, if we're talking about the biggest IPO ever, right? They're going to be able to say uh issue their shares on chain and that

is going to be available everywhere. And so why do you have to go through specific markets? Um like I mean that's what companies have to do today is like they have to first list on a single market and then they basically have to do all this other work to list on another market another market another market on our market all >> build confidential applications on any blockchain with Zama go to zama.org or to start building with privacy [music] today. >> Clip ad, but uh that's exactly what you're seeing play out um in the equities market is that there's this stock thesis that Gabriel highlights and it's that the NASDAQ and the the New York Stock Exchange role is going to decrease because traditionally they've been able to basically

monopolize access to the equities markets. Uh and so uh this is what what we're seeing uh play out. But once you have tokenized equities, I mean this is just this is just fair game. You open up access across the board. you can access these things onchain um and then take them to any chain and once you know right now Gabe said this is also the case and you've heard me talk about this tokenization thesis this mechanism where actually we tokenize on demand just in time as an order comes in that thing isn't tokenized and then it is as that order comes in a over time you're going to end up with more and more of these shares of these companies on chain and

that's where they're going to live and So that is happening. We're just slowly dripping out more equities onchain and tokenize them as we go. Eventually, you won't need to go to a platform at all. You're just going to have Dshares floating out all over Ethereum, all over the onchain economy, and you're going to have several access points beyond the New York Stock Exchange and the NASDAQ in order to get access to these listings. Uh and so Aught argues that you know traditional listing and market structure frictions are outdated uh compared with instant global and wallet-based ownership. Uh he does exactly this by bringing Dshares to market. He democratizes access and uh he is able to broaden availability for

these equities so that you don't need to go open up a brokerage account. You can tap into this asset class from anywhere on demand uh just with the click of a button. uh think dinari is actually doing quite well in this regard. They've been able to do this in a regulated way without SPVS, without going to all of the different issuers and telling them they need to issue their shares on chain and then these issuers, you know, they look at them like what are you talking about? Uh you know, this business has nothing to do with that. Uh dinari has been able to do that on their behalf uh without SPVS.

So very very cool. I'm excited to see how this plays out. Uh guys, we're going to do a quick standby as we get our guest ready in the back. That has been our daily equity segment for today. We appreciate you rocking with us. Uh everyone in the chat, Little Miss Gun, Edward, stick with us. I think new types around here somewhere. And uh everyone who is new to the channel, we appreciate you. Drop us a subscribe, a follow, a like, a comment. And uh we will see you in just a moment.

>> [music] [music] [music] >> Yo yo yo. What's going on, guys? This is Itan with the rollup. We're going to be patrolling the streets of New York City getting answers to the questions that you guys have most. What are people trading? What are people investing in?

How much do people actually budget? We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. [music] >> We get we get deep. We get deep. We get we get deep, [music] you know. We get deep.

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[music] We get deep. [music] We get deep, you know. We get deep. We get deep. [music] We get deep. You know, we get deep. Know we get deep. We get deep. Know we get deep. [music] Know we get deep. We get deep. Know we get deep.

You know we get deep. [music] We get deep. You know we get deep. We get we get deep. We get deep. We get we get [music] we get deep, you know. We get deep. [music] All right, guys. We are back. We are live here with uh MetaMask's uh he is the consensus director pro of product at

MetaMask. Uh he's at Consensus. MetaMask obviously out of consensus. And uh we are going live with Zen. Let's go ahead bring him up. Uh we're going to be chatting about MetaMask's agent wallet uh with the director of product at MetaMask. Zen, first time on the show, man. How how are you doing today? Thanks for coming. >> Doing well. No, thanks so much for having me, Robbie. Uh, it's a pleasure and um love what you guys do. Uh, and yeah no excited. >> Thank you so much, man. Well, you guys have uh been crushing it in the wallet game for a long long time. Uh, consensus obviously is just, you know, a major major contributor to Ethereum as a whole. uh before we get into like everything happening with agents and how MetaMask is approaching the space uh maybe you could just give us a little

bit of a catch up as far as how MetaMask has evolved over the years. you know, you guys have been, you know, one of the first wallets in the space. Um, what ultimately were the successive evolutions, the innovations that brought you to a place where you said, "Hey, Agentic Commerce is happening. It's real. We need to make sure that MetaMask is prepared for this." What were some of the prerequisite steps that ultimately you guys noticed and recognized at MetaMask? >> Yeah. Um, thanks thanks for starting off right off from the start. So I think I mean over the years MetaMask existed pre-AI right and and quite a bit pre like LLM boom and LLM boost. Um so I think first and foremost MetaMask um got really popular and really saw its first

wave of traction when Ethereum uh first started and first get started getting caught on. Um I I don't think many people remember the competitive landscape back then, but it was very different from the competitive landscape today. Back then I think uh there was a lot of competition. There was hardware wallets. Um but also there were a lot of different desktop wallets in particular. There was like Mist wallet and then you had browser wallets like my ether wallet and others like that. and people really didn't really the the the the exact form in which the most popular wallet would come about and thrive wasn't exactly clear pre MetaMask. Um and I think um in its early days in particular the way

MetaMask got traction was basically MetaMask was the form of wallet that was the easiest to use and most capable to be used with different applications, different dabs back then. um you know it was CryptoKitties >> back when NFTs weren't even cool. Uh I think that was the first real kind of like collectible app and then um and uh and and lots more around that like the DAO uh that all required MetaMask in particular to be connected to them quite seamlessly. And I think MetaMask rode that wave. Um alongside accessibility to DAPs across different EVMs um I think MetaMask was on first and forefront in terms of security in

particular 10 years running no hacks um on MetaMask at this point in time and that code continues to increase and we can continue to basically build things that continues to be a big pillar of what we've um built up over the years over our brand but also So just in terms of like our security stack transaction scanning um uh across all the different chains uh supply chain defenses lava mode I'm not sure basically defends against supply chain attacks which are super super prevalent um in today's AI world uh as well um and I think uh you know as in in the last few years we've

also kind of embraced the multi-chain multi-vmosystem system, integrating Bitcoin, Salana, uh so on so forth, um and uh and and and and continuing to, you know, do per prediction markets, etc., etc., etc. So, uh yeah. Well, fast forward to today, here we are. Yeah. Yeah. And here here we are. Um AI agents are sort of taking the world by storm, at least at a at a conceptual basis. Um the idea is that we've got this LLM boost. it's sort of, you know, accelerating everything around us. Uh, finance, finance in general is s certainly one of these things. Onchain finance in particular. And so now you're

at a point where MetaMask has the agent capabilities within its wallet. Um, we've seen this sort of tried a few different ways. And so conceptually, we've kind of worked through some of the mechanics, right? There's uh, hey agent, you have your own wallet, you have your own balance, go do whatever you want. And then it's like that's one one way to do this. Another way to do this is hey agent you know you have control over my wallet right which can get a little bit uh hazy and and uh shaky that time. And then the other way to do this >> played out so well. [laughter] >> Yeah.

[snorts] >> Yeah. Yeah. When you it has access over your wallet all of a sudden your wallet becomes its wallet very very quickly. the the last you know potential route that we've seen agentic commerce take on chain is this idea of you know you give it you know a credit card or like a debit card that is and then you let it transact with this thing and so I'm sure Zen you've thought about this you know at length what were some of the realizations and conclusions that you drew as a result of thinking through some of the different potential mechanisms and tell us about the the the mechanism that you ultimately instantiated into the metam ask wallet.

>> Absolutely. Um so first and foremost I think uh the way we approached AI uh with any other new technology was taking a um a look at ecosystem and what the ecosystem was doing but also staying dynamic right and flexible because I think when you're talking about LLMs especially things don't just change on a monthly basis or a weekly basis but in fact like a daily basis. Um so I think first and foremost what we saw uh was two things from internally we saw productivity boosts and we saw from a security standpoint a need to take a look at supply chain attacks a little bit more and to kind of leverage AI

internally in particular to make our processes more efficient on the external standpoint which is I think a little bit more to what you're alluding to in the latter component of what you're saying was is that we kind saw first off financial use cases being really really one of the largest demanded use cases out there. So you know with open core and Hermes in particular what we saw was we saw that um alongside these open-source harnesses we saw about were a lot of different financial specific open-source AI harnesses um that were garnering a lot of traction and garnering a lot of interest. It's our numbers kind of ran and about like

30% of all downloaded AI harnesses out there open sourced at this point in time were for financial use cases specifically be it in web 2 or web 3. Um and I think uh that definitely validated demand and we really wanted to be part of that. And what we thought about doing is you know in such a dynamic and fastm moving market is really going back down to the fundamentals and thinking about what we could provide of value to the end user um that wouldn't necessarily change overnight, right? And for us at MetaMask, that naturally was our true and battle tested transaction stack,

right? Of which like billions of transactions has gone through and hundreds of billions of volume has gone through um every year in particular. That transaction stack that has stood the test of time, stood the test of volume uh in particular was what we basically wanted to ensure was accessible to agents such that they could inherit this um and it would be fundamentally valuable. Uh so that's what MetaMask agent wallet does. It basically um is it's a thin CLI layer on top of MetaMask's battle hardened transaction stack which includes all the best things scanning transaction shield

um it includes uh also fun features like gasless transactions on top of that uh 2FA uh such that the human can be in the loop if they want to be um and then so gasless transactions it across all of the different chains Um, and it allows basically a user to oneshot multi-step interactions. So you're thinking, let's say if you have like ETH and you want to make a hyperlquid bet, you could do so, which is which typically would take bridging and then actually setting up your hyperlquid wallet and then placing a position. You could do the all that in one shot, right?

>> Very cool. Wow. Okay. So that makes things a lot more efficient. I'd also imagine that these things are going to get a lot more sophisticated very quickly. So, can you tell us how someone would go about setting this up? You mentioned it's a CLI on top of MetaMask's, you know, battle hardened, you know, infrastructure. >> How if I'm someone who has access to Claude, how how would you go about setting this up? >> Just ask Claude. Just say, "Hey, Claude, please. Um, I want to do something on chain. Uh, use MetaMask's agent wallet to do so." Um, and Claude will set it up right up for you. And that's the highly advised way to do it, right? Um, it'll just go off on its own. Use cloud code, use codeex, whatever you'd like. Um, and

it'll go off on its own. You can do whatever you'd like. Wow. Very cool. And this thing has all the capabilities to do things on chain, probably even beyond human comprehension. Can you just for the sake of conversation like what are some of the strategies that you're excited about seeing people try with MetaMask's agent wallet? You know, you mentioned one thing you can go set up your hyperlquid account via this agent. What are some other things that you would just conjure up creatively in your mind that an agent can do that might take humans, you know, maybe a little bit it wouldn't be so feasible for a human, but agents are able to do this.

>> Yeah. So I mean the uh first and foremost I think what MetaMask agent wallet specifically does it helps your agents with um instead of your agents just kind of like raw dogging um uh onchain interactions is kind of like uh we basically optimize on context, right? We optimize on context because it's a transaction engine. We optimize on context and reduce the context used. make your agents give your agents a space to work faster and work simpler and more accurately. Um, and this includes specific transactions, per swaps, predict and all, but includes just generic transactions across the board across all the different chains.

Um, and I think what we've been really, it's been in early access for a couple of weeks. So, we've been keeping tabs with the community and it's been really exciting to see what they've been building. Um, we've seen quite a few different open- source projects already built and out there on GitHub. I think a lot of the common trading ones are um what we've seen at least is kind of uh kind of like a prediction market arbitrage bot. So, you know, so there there are lots of different prediction markets out there and I think um you know on polymer market or koshi if there are two bets which can only be which are binary and that like Right. Right.

>> Uh- which have delta neutral outcomes which basically means that like you know regardless of they they go in the same direction. If one bet wins the other bet basically loses and vice versa. Um you can take both sides on that bet. And I think we've seen a lot of that. We've also seen uh um we've also seen people kind of using it to trade meme coins in particular. uh do due diligence on memecoins, kind of like spot when uh do analysis on addresses to see when a dev might be selling or so on so forth uh and basically final signals into uh their trades and to to find edge and trade smarter. We've also found um a little bit more uh generic use cases for

like kind of like RWAs and just basically validating that an RWA is what they say they are. So, kind of like auditing mechanisms. Those are a couple of ones that are are top of mind at this point in time. Is there anyone you want to dive into in particular? >> Uh, these are all these are all great. Um, I'd love some of these open source projects to, you know, put up a dashboard, show us their analytics, you know, if there was a prediction market, uh, you know, arbitrage bot, uh, how did it do? Was it able to make a lot of money?

>> To be honest, if they're making money, they don't usually talk about it. there tweeters or influencers that want to talk about it say you can make thousands but you know typically it's like um if they're making money they try to keep it secret. [snorts] >> Yeah. Well I just have Zen just a another question on setting this thing up. Um you know go to Claude tell it hey go use MetaMask's you know CLI agent wallet. This thing is available to the the entire population now. So congratulations on launching this generally available. Um, what is it better to give this thing its own wallet? You know, segment it away from our existing wallet, you know, just let the agent use the CLI to spin up its own wallet and deposit funds, just send it a

few bucks to get it started. >> Uh, that's what we found the experience that most people are comfortable with. Um, you know, everybody in crypto, I would say, is kind of used to address segregation, wallet segregation, hot wallet, cold wallet. And I I I I I think that most people at this point in time are using agents for basically a even hotter wallet than hot. >> And I think that's how most people are treating it. Now hotter than hot doesn't mean like just a couple dollars though. We're seeing we're seeing really interesting levels of volume uh that people are doing on the MetaMask agent wallet today. Um uh but you know hot is relative to different people I guess. Yeah. No, it

makes it makes a ton of sense. Zen, we've actually got a question from our audience. Uh, and this is uh this doesn't always happen, but it's a really good question here because we saw CloudFare announce that they would uh give AI agents an identity and a wallet. Uh, this was I think just last week they talked about it on their earnings call. Uh, the question in the chat is that uh is MetaMask going to be a competitor with Cloudfare? Feel free to answer that if you'd like, but I'm just genuinely curious. Did you have a chance to kind of look at CloudFare? What are they doing? Uh is are they now entering the AI agent space and how might MetaMask's agent wallet compare with some of the other agentic experiences that are

available on the market? >> Yeah, so I mean um that's a fantastic question by the way. Uh thanks for it uh the viewer. So I think so you know with public information available I'm not a cloudflare employee or somebody working on that particular project uh but with public information available I think when I kind of initially saw that and um with uh that's it like public information isn't that much when I initially saw that in particular and saw just basically what Cloudflare has been doing in the past um the first insect that came to And the first instinct that came to mind was uh 402, right? X402.

Um in that like agents today don't have their own identity. They're confused with humans in particular. Cloudflare is identity provider thinking about a DOS protection provider. Thinking about how agents can better identify themselves to websites to basically access to crawl to use websites as a like high paying individual. And the first thing that comes to mind is just, you know, potentially like staking or paying for access in a little bit of an easier way via X102 um or some other similar more primitive API. And when you start to think about these particular use cases for specifically agents, this then becomes

that just then naturally becomes more I would say casual agents, agents which are I think for more loose use cases rather than that financial trading use case. It's less It's more of for like internet security and for internet efficiency to get past captures and stuff like that and less for um and less for uh and less for like okay what am I going to do with my portfolio? How am I going to trade? How am I going to manage money? So on the onset I don't think it's going to be a direct competitor um just because of those two different use cases. But, you know, it's anyone's guess until the actual product comes

out. >> Got it. And, you know, you you mentioned X42, which is extremely relevant to this conversation, and I'm sure you've thought about this and looked at it deeply. Can you just explain how MetaMask's agentic experience might differ from X42 for example? What is what maybe could characterize what is X42? How is it different from MetaMask agent? >> The best way to do this would be through an analogy. X42 is kind of payments. So, it's like an agent or an address essentially being able to have the functionality to tap and pay not via credit card but via crypto rails um to any other address. Uh and that's X42 in a nutshell. I think when you think about

MetaMask agent wallet, MetaMask agent wallet's a little bit more towards not necessarily being for payments, but actually being a trading wallet, a wallet that you'd trust with your finances because it's a battle hardened transaction stack that you want to kind of be a little bit more of um a financial advisor for or onchain executor for uh rather than casual payments. Um, so I would say MetaMask agent wallet is a little bit more like a brokerage account relative to X402, which is a little bit more like Google Wallet tapping to pay for coffee.

>> Got it. Okay, that was a really helpful analogy. I think it makes a lot of sense. Um, Zen, one of just the last questions here. What industry, what what category of this industry do you think is best positioned to capitalize on the growth of agentic commerce and the onchain agentic experience? You mentioned prediction markets. You mentioned perpetuals. Do you think them or defi or any other particular sector do you think is in a position to really grow once more agents get enabled? So I mean the way I think about you know onchain and crypto has always finance has been complicated but DeFi and like onchain finance and crypto and

blockchains and all of the different coins out there is even more convoluted and even more confusing right um we've had to rely on block explorers and other kind of like scanners to interact with onchain components pre AAI but post AI agents have actually become a UI Yux interface that have enabled more individuals access to different protocols um and to use them more easily. So I think honestly across the board I see potentially AI boosting more functionality and more complex longtail usage. I think what we're talking about is basically not just USD stables but

potentially other stables out there. um not just your top five or top 10 NFTts but other NFT use cases out there, right? Not just your top like loan marketplace a but more people delving down into like curve into a little bit more being exposed to more degenerate uh or degen rather um or what was priorly DGEN uh um functionality because AI allows them that access and I think that's what I'm most excited about AI giving access to more functionality on chain >> that I mean that's what this industry is all about. It's about expanding economic

access. I've been extremely excited to watch tokenized equities and new asset classes come on chain because it also expands access for different types of assets, not just crypto assets. And what you're talking about is expanding functionality, expanding access to several of these components as well. And so I think the combination of tokenization of new asset classes combined with an agentic experience is just going to accelerate uh greater access all over the world which is it's a very exciting future.

>> I think you've worded it better than I ever could that access is that AI is >> awesome. >> Well Zen uh congratulations on launching this product. I think it's very cool to see especially from a protocol that is as battleh hardened as MetaMask. Uh so keep up the great work man. Thank you so much for joining us today and uh would love to have you on again very soon. >> Thanks so much, Robbie. Thanks for having me. It's been a great day. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, we'll c we'll catch you later. Thanks Zen. >> All right, guys. That has been uh Zen from MetaMask. Uh these guys launched the Agentic Experience. I'm sure everyone was looking forward to this. I know we all heard and saw, you know, the prediction market arbitrage bots. My

ironclaw can do this and that. Uh, and that's becoming a real uh thing, a reality for so many more people. It's expanding functionality, expanding access uh to all of you. You heard Zen, just go to your Claude, say, "Hey, go set up an a wallet via MetaMask's agent wallet. Just tell your claude, let Claude go and do it for you." Uh, that is the paradigm that we're living in today. So, it's very, very cool. Um, this has never been possible before. You can just spin up these things incredibly quickly. Uh, so I'm excited for the future. Uh and you heard how uh this could uh just again as we get the tokenization thesis to play out a greater amount of assets then you start to add in new functionality you end up increasing the economic velocity that is

happening on chain and that's when you really start to generate tons of revenue as a result of the activity here. So fantastic segment with Zen big shout out to MetaMask and uh we are going to bring up our next guest uh which is going to be stabled up. It's Edward Woodford of Zeroash. These guys just partnered with um Visa to enable more stable coin payment networks and uh Visa obviously massive doing 99% of the crypto card volume out there and Zero is going to help power their stable coin solutions.

Let's go ahead bring in Edward and uh play the animation for Stabled Up sponsored by Fracks. [music] >> Welcome back to another episode of Stabled Up, our premier weekly show covering the ins and outs of digital dollars, stable coins, and the future of decentralized finance. Show is made possible by FRA and FRA is powering the financial engine of the internet powering FRXUSD and genius compliant stable [music] coins. This is the stable coin super cycle made possible by FRA.

Now enjoy stabled up our weekly stable coin show. [music] >> [music] >> Welcome back to another episode of Stabled Up, our premier weekly show covering the ins and outs of digital dollars, stable coins, and the future of decentralized finance. The >> show is made possible by FRA and FRA is powering the financial engine of the internet, powering FRXUSD and genius compliant stable coins. This is the stable coin super cycle made possible by FRA. Now enjoy stabled up, [music] our weekly stable coin.

And we're back, guys. Welcome to our stabled up segment of the rollup. Today we are going to be chatting with Edward Woodford. He is the CEO and co-founder of Zero Hash. And so we are excited to chat about stable coins on Visa and Zeroash today. These guys just announced a partnership with Visa. We're going to be getting into it. Stabled up is sponsored by our friends at FRA. Uh they are doing incredible things with FraNet and their FRXUSD stable coin. Uh let's go ahead bring up uh Zero Hash CEO and co-founder Edward Woodford. And uh we're going to get into the newlyannounced partnership with Visa. It's his first time on the show. Edward, you're up uh live now. Welcome to the show.

>> Yeah, great to be here. >> Absolutely. Thanks for coming by. And uh I actually uh remember Zero Hash. You guys have been around a long time, but I kind of think you're flying under the radar as most people uh in the crypto world might might not really realize the the type of uh work that you guys have been doing for such a long time. Because it's your first time on the show, maybe you could just give us a little bit more of an introduction into Zero Hash and, you know, what you guys have been up to over the last few years. >> Yeah, thank you. And it's nice to be a participant as opposed to just a viewer.

Um so, um yeah, it's great to be here and just a little bit of context on Zero Hash. So I founded the company in 2017. So in crypto and stable coin years um you know a long time. Um and really the commonality for us is just that we believe that onchain is the way that value will fundamentally disrupt the way that everything moves globally. And so today we power some of the largest banks and fi such as Morgan Stanley's uh crypto product is powered through us. Uh we have a number of stable coin partners using stable coins in and out and that's obviously where the visa announcement comes and we power others um like um stripe uh gusto um lots of different applications and use cases really

viewing stable coins as an alternative money movement business. So, we're about 220 people based globally. Um, and yeah, like you said, um, in the quadrant of of crypto and onchain businesses. Uh, we've been one that has been doing a lot, but potentially not making as much noise. And so, it's great to be here to talk about the partnership today. AB: >> Absolutely. And and you guys really skated to where the puck was going, front ran a lot of the industry on partnering in a more regulated fashion with some of the banks, financial institutions that you mentioned. Uh let's dig into the stablecoin work that you've done helping to set up some of the infrastructure for stablecoin partners. You mentioned that you support several of the stable coin companies that are out there today. You mentioned Stripe and Bridge and you know other

ones as well. Also helping Morgan Stanley with their crypto offering. Maybe you could just get into how Zero Hash works. Understandably a very very cool and and notable partnership list but underneath the hood what is it that Zero Hash is doing? what is the technology at play here? >> Yeah, so in terms of what we seek to provide, we seek to abstract away the complexity of stable coin and onchain finance both from a technical perspective as well as a regulatory perspective. And so Zero Hash has always taken compliance first approach and we're licensed to operate in all US states, in Europe, in Brazil, in Canada, so all over. And so we effectively want to be that one-stop shop to allow partners to scale their onchain strategy

with zero hash. From a technical perspective, what that means and just maybe just from a strategic perspective, we're living in a world with greater fragmentation both at the chain level and at the asset level. And our view is that it's only only going to get more complex, which means that for example, there's now O USD to complement USDC, PYUSD. And then each of these assets is also on many many different chains. And so zero hash abstracts away that technical complexity of spinning up addresses onchain f and anything related to onchain movement um from start to finish. And in particular we're solving usability challenges for partners as well making it a simple experience for customers to move stable coins in a way that feels very native um and simple in

terms of an account to account movement. So we abstract away that technical and regulatory complexity for partners. Um and you know today we have close to 10 million end customers. Um and you know by the end of this year we'll actually be providing access to about 3/4 of US households will have access to our technology through the partners that we service today. >> Wow that is fantastic reach and scale and it makes sense given that you've been in the space for a long time. You can serve as a trusted partner whereas a lot of these financial institutions are just sort of on the outside looking in. They're sort of learning, educating themselves, doing some R&D to understand the space a little bit better. You guys have been around a long time. You know a thing or two about the space. You can come in and help to educate these larger

players. Um, let's talk about Visa. You guys have a Zero Hash Visa Direct partnership and you're going to be advancing the real use case of stable coins around the world. Could you just talk to us about Visa? tell us how this ultimately came to fruition and what is Visa looking for in a partner like you and and what are you looking for in a partner like Visa? >> Yeah, and I think your context and framing is is is accurate and I think what's really exciting is maybe 2 three years ago these were financial services companies that were dabbling their toes into these spaces. Now this is the core business adopting this infrastructure.

This is not a proof of concept with Visa. This is a true GA application to all eligible um customers and the scale of Visa is just extraordinary when you look at the number of endpoints that they service over 12 billion endpoints over 190 countries and so stable coins for Visa are a way to effectively move value instantly real time global um in a very costefficient way um and really there's two applications that we've announced so far. The first is what um is termed merchant preunding. So, this is a merchant that wants to uh do a payout, for example, a two-sided marketplace. And conventionally, you would have to send money or you'd need to hoard money at a partner um like Visa Direct. Stable coins allow that for

effectively that just in time funding, which frees up capital for partners. And if you free up capital, it that's very very efficient from a cost structural perspective, allowing people to continue to invest in their business as opposed to effectively parking that capital. So that is the merchant preunding use case which is extraordinarily exciting. The other is payouts to people globally. So for example, paying out a freelancer in the Philippines um takes seconds not days via the Swift network. It's more costefficient. And I think what's really exciting there from a from a just what it means for the world is if you can move money more quickly, more easily globally that allows people to get access to those funds and you start to change the way that we think about

payments as opposed to for example being paid every two weeks potentially could be paid every day or even after every um service that you provide and that adds enormous value that people don't need to for example take out loans uh because they can be paid more quickly. So that payout use case is the second thing that we've announced that we think is going to change the way that two-sided marketplaces in particular move money globally. >> Yeah, we uh we had a guest on the show uh who described this market as well, this idle cash market, put it at the scale of $27 trillion. Um not sure the source of that info, but I believe uh that that is the scale at which we're talking about when we're thinking about idle cash, making that more efficient.

And I also just want to, you know, as we kind of think big here about the potential liquidity unlock, the capital unlock that could come as a result of just in time, uh, you know, capital deployment through stable coins and this partnership with Visa. You know, it it also just leads me to think about the the kind of scale as we start to increase monetary velocity because there's a lot of people that come on, they like to talk about the basement trade and the increase of liquidity and the these sorts of things, but I think a real sign of a healthy onchain economy or economy at large is going to be increasing velocities that we're always turning these things over. Maybe you could just speak to what you think the

potential positive consequences of unlocking this liquidity and then also increasing capital velocity. What do you think that could end up leading to? >> Yeah. So velocity of money is is good for for everyone. Um it ultimately is the lifeblood of an economy and just look very practical example most SMB businesses the biggest cost they have 60 to 70% of a business's uh cost is payroll. And so if you're a business in Brazil that's looking to pay out people across 100 different countries, the need to preund could be for example four or five days of working capital which can be very very meaningful. So as opposed to opening up a new uh a new product or a new factory, you're spend using that

money to effectively float and that creates inefficiencies. That is incredibly powerful in terms of what velocity of money ultimately means on a global scale. It allows for people to invest that capital as opposed to effectively that money at rest. I think it also raised a really great point in terms of the metrics that matter. I don't I think this is going to be have to be a conversation that shifts today. Most people's metrics that matter effectively assets under custody. How big is a stable coin? I think that's the wrong metric. I think increasingly you need to be looking at total process volume on chain and you need to be looking at the connective tissue that exists. We for example put that there's 2.5 billion stable coin enabled accounts globally. meaning that if you have an account at Revolute or Robin Hood or GCash um or PayPal or Cash App, you have

access to a stable coin today. And that is what is incredibly powerful. And that's why we're now at this point where this we've seen this distribution of technology and now the applications and use cases can be built on top. And that's where we see we are in the journey. And that is the metric that should start to matter. How many nodes do we have available on stable coin enabled accounts and how much volume are we putting through? I think we need to move away from the AU number. Yeah, I I completely agree and I I tend to harp on this velocity number so that we can ultimately unlock all this idle cash. And you're absolutely right, AU, TVL, these are becoming antiquated and there are metrics that are a better indication of what the status the landscape of this transactions look like today. Uh and so

I I encourage uh some more of our fellow researchers to dig into some of those metrics. Um, Edward, because you know, you've got a unique vantage point. You've gone into the offices with banks, with financial institutions. I take it you're in the room. Sometimes there's several stakeholders that are ultimately coming forth with these deals. These are multi-depart decisions that are made. And you're sometimes in these rooms with people and companies that their business is built on providing these loans. They know there's idle cash. They know there's idle capital. They loan to to people that are, you know, making some sort of payday uh pay payroll. They're they're facilitating these loans on a regular basis. That is their entire the

entirety of their business. And so when you're in, you know, an office building with a bank and you're sitting them down and you're saying, "Hey, stable coins could completely eliminate, you know, the potential of bank loans, you know, and and that is a real hit to their bottom line." What is the reaction to that? Do they say, you know, you're you're you know, you're crazy. That's not really what's going to happen. Do they chase you out the block or do they do they listen to you? They they take the opportunity to to understand what is coming. Maybe you could just talk us through the reaction that you get from some of these large financial institutions as you see them learn about stable coins in real time.

>> Yeah. So, I really think it's about people reassess the business that they're in. And I think that people now are actually as opposed to operating from a place of fear, they're operating from a place of being aggressive in terms of what this can mean for them. And so, for example, um, look, one very tangible example is stable coin backed cards. We had an announcement, uh, with Marqueta two weeks ago around the ability to issue cards, uh, globally. And in some senses, stable coins can threaten an existing business. Um, but equally if you lean in, it can allow you to go global more quickly and it can allow you to change where do you make economics today. But I think when you look at the largest FIS, they know that this is happening. This isn't a question of if, it's a question of when. And so

most players are starting to assess where can they start to potentially where they've been potentially relatively narrow in terms of their own business application. Can they potentially leverage the stack that they have and this new technology to potentially make more money and to actually expand what they do. So I think increasingly FIS and large enterprises saying what is the service that we ultimately want to offer customers potentially. Today we have five different players in the money stack and that's very very common when you actually look at money movement or for example card issuance. There's lots of players downstream.

>> Is there the potential for me to cannibalize somebody else downstream? That is ultimately where they're coming from. Um and so this is why groups are leaning in as aggressively as they are um because they view this as a convergence um between companies that have started onchain native and themselves in traditional finance and the two worlds are converging and ultimately it's about how quickly you can get and grow and that is what we're starting to see um across across the largest enterprises. Was there a tipping point where you saw this institutional apprehension turn into aggressive you know research and development and implementation? Can you can you remember was there anything that happened in particular that signal to these larger financial institutions now is the time

to act? Yeah, look, I I think obviously in terms of what I would call onchain money, um I think that you've started to see obviously the Genius Act being passed and now obviously the rules being finalized and then obviously clarity from regulators around the fact that ultimately the technology on which deposits are built on doesn't change the underlying. Um and then you've obviously seen vast growth and proof points such as for example Black Rockck's Biddle fund in terms of what that means for the space and how asset managers and players can start to think about what does it mean for onchain money ultimately in terms of the velocity of movement. So you know the the growth and the acceleration over the last two years has been extraordinary. I don't think there's one silver bullet in terms of what ultimately caused it. There's

obviously regulatory l regulatory pieces. There's obviously been the proof points that we've seen and then my point around just the distribution of this technology has ultimately shifted it and I often use the example of the iPhone. You needed the iPhone to be distributed and then the app store could be built on top. I think we're still at that early stage of the app store being built on top because now you've distributed this technology broadly and widely and made it very simple for people to access. And I think you're only going to see an acceleration of where we are today in terms of the utility of onchain finance. And this is what we're extremely excited about because obviously here the the predominant focus is stable coins. But stable coins are a building block from which several forms of utility and further asset classes could be tokenized

and combined with the same infrastructure that is available today. This has been a thesis that we've been talking about on this show. It is this tokenization thesis where you tokenize all these asset classes. Cash has been a predominant one. Uh but then once these things are onchain, that is when like the real party gets started because this infrastructure is able to facilitate all sorts of functionality that wasn't previously possible. And so as you're thinking ahead, obviously a big focus on the stable coin front because this is the precipice for the entire development and evolution of the space. But as you look forward to stable coins, tokenized equities, tokenized deposits and these things continue to evolve and

accelerate, how do you think the landscape will look maybe, you know, after a lot of this infrastructure is laid, this foundation is laid. How do you anticipate some of the banks and the financial institutions and individuals fitting together? What is their transa transaction landscape look like when all these things are tokenized onchain? Yeah, ultimately for the user it should be no different, right? The the the technical piece should be abstracted away, but in terms of the utility that should scale um enormously in terms of what can be done and and the value proposition of that. I think you know we've obviously seen enormous growth with stable coins. I think now you're going to see other forms of onchain money accelerate. So bank deposits are going to accelerate. Onchain yield

bearing instruments are going to accelerate in large part because of the driver of um uh in terms of collateral and you can look at a payments business that needs to post collateral globally. You can look at a brokerage business and what we're starting to see just generally is that the velocity of money matters more in part because customers are increasingly expecting it because communications are global instant real time. But also if you look at the capital market space and you look at tokenization that you mentioned tokenization goes handinhand with onchain money. The value prop of tokenization is instant real time global you need the fiat rails that keep up and that's where onchain money starts to play play in. And you know last week we announced for example our expansion of our partnership with black rockck who have built obviously the largest one of

the largest onchain yield bearing instruments which is black rockck's bidd. They're expanding the number of tokens leaning in, but stable coins are an incredible proof point and accelerant of that strategy because they go hand in hand in terms of the value prop. So for us, we see these things as not they're obviously separate from an asset class perspective, but they're very intertwined uh just in terms of how they reinforce each other. >> Yeah. Um Edward, you mentioned uh Black Rockck, you mentioned Morgan Stanley, you mentioned Visa.

>> I mean, who's against you guys? What's next? Who's left? Have you guys already reached all the all all the potential partners? It's just about leveling all them up and scaling or is there anyone left that you're still hammering helping them understand the value proposition here? >> Yeah, look, we're we're incredibly ambitious. Um, we kind of have a Pokemon mindset internally, which we want more. Um, but I think in terms of just in terms of this technology, we're still incredibly early in terms of the use case and applications. So look, we started off as a business very focused on crypto and we ultimately believed this was a technology that could be applied across other assets in particular dollars and that's why we've seen the growth of stable coins and you started to see you know just the the the markets that are interested in this

scale enormously. So large banks, prediction marketplaces, brokerage platforms. Um where we're particularly interested in is again where this technology can be applied to with this kind of commonality and proof points and in particular we're interested in the agentic uh finance space. We released an agentic finance suite uh just under two weeks ago to service that space. So again we see this technology um as an ability to effectively touch the way that value moves globally and instantly and we're still at a very very early stage in terms of where this technology has disrupted and where it can go.

>> Yeah. Um, I'm not sure if you caught any of the previous segment, but we actually just had uh the director of product at MetaMask come on talk to us about the MetaMask agent wallet just before your segment. Um, and so our our audience is fully prepped and and ready for this topic. Um, I'm just curious, you know, given that uh we already kind of have a conversation about maybe the early majority how retail individuals are approaching an agentic wallet experience. We also talked about CloudFare and how they're getting into this game as well with uh giving AI agents an identity and a wallet. I'm curious from your perspective, you got the vantage point communicating with these institutions. How are they approaching an agentic wallet experience with zero hash?

>> Yeah. So where we're particularly focused is on agent to agent or agent to communi or agent to creator communication. Um and so obviously when you look at the Cloudflare uh you know setup I think it's incredibly exciting but you know there's some assumptions that have been made principally that one entity can effectively control access of billions of disparate agents uh to billions of um information sources and that's more akin to say the Spotify model in music where Cloudflare can effectively control the the two sides of the marketplace. Um, I think that's certainly going to be part of the future of the way that agents um, communicate and pay um, ultimate creators. Um, but I also believe in a world where we are

increasingly I think increasingly starting to believe that we're going to all be multi- aent. Um, and so we're going to have, you know, dozens if not thousands of separate agentic u models and equally we're going to have billions of data points. And how do you create that in a fragmented global world? I believe in a global uh distributed payment mechanism which is onchain money. And so that's where we fit into the stack is providing the stack for two-sided marketplaces to for example stream payments, hold money and move money in a more fragmented world.

Cloudflare is obviously coming at this in a more centralized way. Ala, Spotify, we're coming at this for potentially the other 80% of the internet that isn't powered by Cloudflare or potentially the way the internet is rebuilt starts to change the way that that that the world starts to to evolve as well. So that's really our positioning um is a slightly different strategic approach which I think is very complimentary to Cloudflare. The two are not mutually exclusive. >> Wow. Well, Edward, you've given us plenty to think about here. Um this has been a fascinating uh fascinating chat. I mean, we span all the way from, you know, stable coins, tokenization agents as it pertains to, you know, the the global onchain world with some of the largest institutions at play. Maybe just a final closing thought, what can our

community and our audience expect from Zero Hash coming down the pipeline in the near future? Uh any anything that uh that we missed here that you want to make sure that we stay aware of? >> I think we're going to continue to see just more and more acceleration. Um and like I mentioned for us we view our role as a distribution game um providing access and abstracting away complexity and so continuing that thesis with more and more big announcements of um household names and servicing more and more players around the world and extracting away that complexity such that this looks and feels um just like a better product without needing to think about the technology and underlying infrastructure.

>> Yeah, absolutely. It certainly seems like it's progressing that way. Congratulations on all the success so far, Edward. Thanks so much for coming on and uh we are going to pay attention here going forward to Zero Hash. Uh would love to have you on again sometime soon. >> Thank you. Great to be here. >> Yeah, we'll see you again soon. All right guys, uh that has been Edward on uh the partnership with Visa uh the stable coin onchain economy broadly. We also covered some tokenization ground. Uh you guys heard uh all the successful partnerships that he has some of the largest institutions in the world. I mean, uh, you guys may not know this, but I actually had, uh, some experience with Zero Hash. I, uh, worked at a stock brokerage in my early days, and I helped

set up their crypto offering. They were actually using Zero Hash underneath the hood. So, Zero Hash has been around a long time. Uh, you heard 2017 is when they started building. They were helping a lot of these brokerages set up their crypto offerings. Now, they've been a serious player in the stable coin world. And you also heard how they're staying in a very favorable position to accept new markets that are taking an interest here. Institutional FOMO is what we're calling this. They're taking an aggressive strategy to come and adopt this technology. Zero is abstracting away a lot of the technical and regulatory uh complications that come with adopting new technology.

that has been stabled up. And uh guys, that has been uh the rollup for today. We appreciate you rocking with us. Uh pretty pretty solid but but quick but solid show today. Um New Type, we got a lot of friends in the chat here today. Edward, uh New Type. Uh I saw uh One Bandit in here earlier. Uh Little Miss Gun, King's Clips, you guys are friends of the show. You guys rock. Uh we've got some very special things coming for you guys very soon. Hope you guys appreciated the guests that we had today on the institutional front as well as on the cryptonative front. Guys, we're going to be live same time tomorrow. See you then. Give us some W's in the chat.

Give us some W's in the chat. Everything's going to be all right. Stay patient. Build positions. Dollar cost average. Don't get shaken out. And uh we will see you very soon. Thanks so much. >> [music]