🚨 LIVE From The Nest: HYPE Lockout Rally, SEC Greenlights Tokenized Stocks ft. Jito, Pharos & 6MV

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[music] [music] Heat. Heat. >> [music] >> Sal.

We'll see you around the timeline. Feels [music] good to be back. >> I think The Rollup [music] is one of the most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts at [music] everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding to my library every potentially multi-chain deployments. >> We are at Connect Day [music] one here. I'm guessing [music] [music] [music]

>> [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music]

>> JP Morgan, Black Rock, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. >> He said it. He finally said it. >> So bullish. It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] >> [music]

[music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. N.

>> [music] [music] >> Roll up is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the rollup. [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

>> Heat. Heat. >> [music] >> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. [music] Taste the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. >> Welcome to the next. See you on the show. >> There it is. >> There it is. We are back. Back from back from the road show back from Miami, >> man. Just in time.

>> Wow. >> Are we not back? Just in time for the tokenization super cycle. Andy, where are you? >> I'm back at the nest. Shout out to our friends at Plume powering onchain asset management. We are live from the Empire State Building. Ladies and gentlemen, you are watching the rollup where digital assets meets finance. And boy oh boy, do we have some finance to talk about Rob? >> Yes, we certainly do. I've been ruminating on this idea of digital finance because we've gone from tradi, defi, we've experimented with neoi, people talk about embedded fi, they like talking about tokenized finance, all these different forms of finance, open finance, all of these forms of finance.

>> At the end of the day, >> you know, before we take physical sheets of paper and make them into tokens, we got to digitize them. >> Yes, sir. >> Right now, >> Mr. Anton OG says, "Roll up time." What's going on, man? It's good to have you in there. Your your founder was uh absolutely dogging Sooie today. Uh your founder found himself in a dog fight on Twitter with Digital Finance. We are at the center of digital finance. >> It's good to be back, man. >> It feels good to be back. It feels like the tokenization super cycle got accelerated over the last 24 hours.

>> Huge. >> Yeah. Let's get into today's today's topics powered by our friends at Treor. They are powering some of the best hardware wallets on the map. We we are back in the tokenization tower. Rob's down back in the tropical paradise after a two week long bender. Markets and weather live from New York City. Gito's founder joins the show talking about GTOX. We're going to ask him about Hyperlid. Uh Feros, head of institutions joins the show. They've raised a massive round uh and are kind of a new RWA project on the block I suppose and then Sixman Ventures Carl Vogle GP joins the show. Um they just dropped a tokenization report as well. So we're going to get into a lot of the news and

a lot of that uh once we have our first guest uh GTO Feros and and Carl through Rob. It is a beautiful day in New York. It is hot. >> It is hot. tell us about uh one of the hottest hardware wallets in the game right now. Treasure [clears throat] of course powering today's topics. Uh let's get into our next topic. Yeah. Which is it is 88 degrees in New York City. And guest number one, Lucas from Jetto is going to join us. Formerly known or also known as Buffalo >> OnX. If you're a Buffalo enjoyer, you know who Lucas is. And yeah.

All righty, guys. We're going to move into the weather. Like I said, it is a hot, hot day in New York. Before we do, let me tell you about our friends at Frack powering the stable coin economy. Open, stable, borderless, the future of digital money. Visit frack.inance to learn more. As mentioned, Rob, it is 88 degrees in New York. It is 81 in the studio. I got my laundry done by a lovely East Village laundromat. My new apartment does not >> have a washing machine.

>> It's definitely a bare market. >> Oh, no. >> Um, yeah. >> All right. We're gonna we're gonna fix that. Send >> per >> send uh [applause] Yeah. So, and we'll get into the update on the uranium thesis a little later, but there's [laughter] some adjustments happening to the portfolio. So, we're gonna be we're gonna be getting into all of this. Uh, but at the end of the day, actually, I want to go back and contradict what you're saying. It is, >> you know, despite your lack of a of a of a washer and a dryer, it is a bull market. as as called by our friend Arthur Hayes, who I think we're going to be getting on the show a little bit later today, especially with regards to his latest uh interest >> bullcase for near

>> bullcase for the asset near powered by AI near intense, but I did get a chance to read Arthur's latest article around the butterfly touch. >> Uh he's calling the Bitcoin bottom is in uh at 60,000. He said that is the bottom of this cycle. He says there are tailwinds of trillions of dollars and yawn to be created and it will retake 126,000. It's a foregone conclusion. Um he says that the there's a couple of things that might cause hiccups to this, but ultimately we're going to blast right through the price trajectory explosively after punching through 90,000 where many call overriders will rush to cover as their strike gets taken

out. That was his conclusion at the end of the article. He starts off the article, if you scroll all the way back up at the top, by saying, "The seductive sensation of expectation permeates my body as the inipient bull market gently caresses my soul." >> Wow. >> And I think that's the tone that we're going to set for today's episode. Uh, >> look, man, if you're not holding in Zcash, near hype. I don't know what you're doing in this market. There's only a couple coins that are getting any flows. You can throw a Venice in there. It's a bull market in some coins, I'll tell you that. I think we got Jetto co-founder Buffalo ready to join us here on the show. Um, Jetto is, you know, one of the household names in the Salana land in

the Salana e ecosystem and, um, yeah, Lucas is a longtime founder, uh, longtime builder in the space, has done a lot of work in that space. Um, and so let's get let's get Lucas up and let's get the show started. Lucas, what's going on, man? Welcome to the show. What's going on? Good to >> have you here, Lucas. >> Thanks for having me. >> Big fan. Big fan of the uh of the Buffalo. >> Thanks, guys. >> Yeah, man. >> Maybe you could start by telling us a little bit about the Buffalo lore. How did How [laughter] did we go from Buffalo Buffalo to Jetto?

>> Um, it was a co nickname that I got. Uh, I was just like to party during CO. We'll leave it at that. >> Okay, got it. well partying into launching one of the most successful projects in the Salana ecosystem. You guys launched JTX as of late to out there shilling Phoenix trade into everyone's replies. Not sure why he's not pushing GTX trade. Maybe you've done something or sorry JTX trade. Maybe you've not done something right here, Lucas.

>> Yeah, well it's uh still under development. We'll be live in early July. So teams grinding on getting it out and making the best trading experience possible. >> Love it. >> And yeah, I mean >> yeah, I I'd love to hear a little bit more about JTX. Maybe you can unpack it. Like you said, it's under development. Meanwhile, you know, Phoenix, the other the other one is is, you know, still under development as well. Everyone needs invite codes, but tell us a little bit about JTX. >> Yeah. Well, hold on. I think that that there's a bit bigger of a foundation here to to set which is this idea of like per being one of the de facto categories of value being created on chain and like why this is so important and then why this is so important for Salana in the midst of this kind of like

Salana versus hyperlquid tension like maybe you could just give us a bit of your your viewpoint on the evolution of perks and why this is so important for uh high throughput chains to really dial in and master as uh core value prop for the ecosystem. >> Yeah, people want to trade per. I think it's pretty obvious that they've been on centralized exchanges for a while and more recently we're seeing more activity on decentralized exchanges. People want leverage. They want to trade they don't just want to trade crypto assets, they want to trade RWA. They want leverage.

And that is uh something I think that we've seen is kind of newer in the past like year or so with the popularity of Hyperlid. So, I think Hyperlid's doing extremely well. I think the the Phoenix team is super cracked and they're having more listings every week. So, I think Salana is definitely in that race with the Phoenix team. >> So, tell us a bit more about JTX, you know, what h how it separates from the rest of the market and generally why you guys decided to to allocate the resources and build build this out.

>> Yeah, so JTX is where smart money trades everything. We think there's a gap of trading terminals on Salana and there's currently a a big audience that's being underserved. So when you think about the kind of the trading terminal landscape, I think the the meme area is covered super well. There's a bunch of uh really solid teams working in that area. And then I would say there's some teams that are kind of this like everything terminal and uh we are really focused on being this pro retail pro proumer trading terminal. So really good assets, the best UX, really good order

execution, and it's not like a token sniping platform. It's not made for meme coins that were launched within like the last minute. It's for people that want to trade and they want the best possible trading experience. And I think that we built up this crazy knowledge over the last four years shipping this validator client and all the mev stuff that we've done. And I think that uh a lot of teams come to us for advice on like how to do certain things and we've just gained all this knowledge and you will see that in our product. when you use it, you'll know that this is like the best product that you can trade on on Salana.

>> Yeah, man. I mean, I think that people understand and respect the work that you guys have done in the MEV landscape, especially on Salana. It's a very, you know, it's a very like the SVM operates completely different uh to the EVM in terms of uh you know, contention and priority fees and these types of things. And it's it's it's very clear that if there's a team that's going to be able to build something that uh understands the dynamics of the onchain world in Salana, it is you guys. You know, I think you guys are powering almost 50% of Salana validators. You guys have a ton of insight into the ME pipeline, into the orderflow pipeline. You know, I'm I'm curious about your vision of bringing tighter spreads, bringing a better, you know, actual trading

experience for people on chain routing through JTX. What does that actually look like from a technical lens in terms of implementing a better order flow and a better routing mechanism for the end user on Salana? >> Yeah, Salana is the best place to trade Salana, Bitcoin, Ethereum. I'm not just saying that like making it up. If you actually look at the spreads on chain, it's often cheaper than the best centralized exchange in crypto. And a lot of that is from this innovation that happened called prop amms. And I think that this knowledge a lot of times when I tell people this their minds are

blown. They're like I didn't know you could trade that well on Salana. Like you can buy most of the majors on Salana are cheaper than uh what you can get on the centralized exchange counterparts. So that um that will be >> and Lucas what what is the reason for that? Is it is it you know the block times things are faster? Is it deeper liquidity? You know how are you able to get tighter spreads onchain on Salana versus something like a hyperlquid or a Binance? >> Yeah. So I think it's uh a few things. The Salana block time is super fast.

It's going to get faster. I think we'll probably u make the block times 50% shorter this year. So we'll go from 400 milliseconds to 200 milliseconds. And then the other large innovation I think it started around a year ago is these prop AMMs or these proprietary AMMs. And the key innovation here is uh you know centralized exchanges and hyperlquid they use order books. And so if you want to move your orders around you have to like cancel the order at each tick and then move the place the orders on new ticks and things like that. And that's really computationally expensive. So these prop amms basically created this like pseudo orderbook model where you

have um it's kind of like a virtual order book. So you can just move your midpoint around super cheap and you can build these splines that uh kind of mimic the the shape of what you're trying to do with an order book. And so instead of canceling all these order, like if you want to move your midpoint, instead of canceling all the orders and like shifting, you know, tens or hundreds of orders over, you can just adjust your midpoint and have your spline follow. So, uh, yeah, that's like super in the weeds. Hopefully that makes sense. But, um, essentially, it's really cheap to send these updates. Uh, market makers are sending anywhere from like 10 to 50 updates per second, constantly

moving these things around. And so this ultimately like all this tech stuff that I'm talking about, what this results in is super tight spreads. It's so cheap to update and they can make their own curves that simulate order books. And so there's been a lot of good competition on these prop AMMs. And so one thing that we're going to do in JTX to show this is essentially every time you make a trade, we're going to pull the order book from the best centralized exchange and rerun that trade on the centralized exchange and we will show you how much money you saved on JTX compared to that centralized exchange and it will sum up over time. So like you know we're really targeting this pro retail proumer

audience. They're going to be doing a lot of volume and I think that those Yeah, I think people will be surprised how much better execution they can get on chain on Salana versus some of these other alternatives. >> Uh Lucas, we got Onearmed Bandit, a good friend of the show saying he just picked up JTX on his seeker phone. Um, and then we had a longtime listener asking about why can't JTX also have a pers aggregator rather than hitching to a singular perex or controversial per deck like Phoenix. Not sure if they're entirely correct there, but curious your thought on kind of broadening the scope of liquidity venues versus hitching yourselves to one.

>> Yeah. Um, we are very confident in the Phoenix team's or Ellipsus team's ability to execute. We may explore stuff there in the future, but I think we don't want to spread ourselves too thin. And so, you know, I think the the Phoenix team is super cracked. They have a really good product. And, you know, we're always looking for uh additional kind of places to trade, but I think uh focusing on one will just make the user experience way better. And uh so yeah, that's what we're going to do for now.

And you know, we'll we'll see what happens in the future. >> Yeah. And one of the kind of interesting components about which is so funny. This kind of takes us back to like the modular versus monolithic thesis conversation which is basically like you have in Phoenix what you will have and what you kind of currently do in this private beta if you will is you'll have this composable high throughput smart contract on Salana and Hyperlid gets you a not so composable high throughput you know call it chain call it 16 nodes whatever you want to call it right and so you kind of have two differing implementations of the same directional bet on per

curious like what your what your reasoning is for the smart contract uh platform play being more being more feasible than the uh you know let's say modular or ownchain or not so composable play. >> Yeah, we are huge Salana Bowls. We've been here since 2021, made a ton of bets on Salana, and I think the infrastructure has finally gotten to a point where the the core devs have done so much crazy stuff, crazy engineering over the past few years that the network's just getting better and better. I think it's going to continue to accelerate. So by running this on Salana you get all the composability you

get to hook into all the other protocols. People are going to keep building on Salana. And you know as I mentioned earlier we're going to probably uh make slot times 50% shorter. So we'll go from 400 to 200. We're also going to double the compute units, double the block size. And I think we will continue to uh double them or even even even remove the block limits on Salana. And so you can build these apps on Salana, hook into all these protocols and then you have this cracked team of engineers below you that are basically upgrading your app for free for you. And so like there's going to be more block space. The network's going to keep

getting better and better. And that's why we're building on Salana. Then Lucas, I mean just to play devil's advocate, what is the what is the current downside to building on Salana? What is the current obstacle that you guys would like to overcome to make the per environment there much much stronger than something like Hyperlid or even stronger than these uh centralized exchanges? What are some of the technical bottlenecks that you guys want to get, you know, resolve quickly? Yeah, I think uh making it easier for market makers to integrate with Salana because it's so different from centralized exchanges. The the APIs are different.

The way you read from the chain is different. The way you like write to the chain is different. So I think that and then I think the other thing is getting the like Jeff was a from what I understand like a really good trader built hyperlquid. uh we know we saw the same with S SPF and FTX and that was a good product before you know what happened happened and so uh I would say that uh one of the risk is probably the uh core devs not being super in tune with what people are using the chain for and what the highest priorities are but I think there's a lot of good work going on internally and you know you need to talk to your customers if you're building a platform for people need to talk to your

customers listen to them incorporate feedback back and so I think that's probably the biggest risk but there's a lot of stuff that's changing there. >> Could you say more about that when you what exact what do you mean by you know the the core devs uh you know understanding what people are using the chain for? >> Yeah, I would say that um making sure that the people that are writing the blockchain code are using the chain. So I think that uh you know there's a lot of trading activity on Salana. Most of the priority fees in rev from Salana happens from trading. I think blockchains are the best at trading.

There's going to be huge amounts of money to be made at many layers of the stack including like the Salana priority fees and tips and all this money flowing to validators from trading. And so making sure that the uh the people that are writing the software are talking to traders and understanding how to make it better and how to make it easier to onboard market makers. It's like a you have a chicken and egg problem and like people like us and all the other great apps on Salana can bring all these people that want to trade and take but we also need these market makers on board too so we can get not only tight spreads but deeper liquidity and so uh you know you have this chicken and egg

thing and we can do all we can on the app side and um the core devs are kind of working on the other side to to make it the best place to trade >> and this is one of the things that has made Hyperlid proficient is because Jeff was a you know very very solid trader he's been able to instill that knowledge into hyperlid you know kind of built by trader for traders and and maybe on the Salana side we've got you know two divergent cohorts one of core devs software developers not necessarily financially inclined traders and then on the other side the customers are primarily the traders and these two groups get disconnected at times >> yeah for sure I think there's a lot more uh knowledge sharing between the application devs and the core devs now

and so like faster slot times as a result of that and a bunch of other improvements larger transactions people have been requesting this for a long time and so I think there this feedback loop does exist and I think it's going to it needs to get tighter because there's a lot of competition coming for us and it it goes back to your original question like this gen generic smart contract chain versus kind of a uh specific purpose chain >> um I think Salana has what takes There's been a lot of creative solutions. These prop amms are kind of a result of uh people looking at how Salana works and rethinking things like maybe we don't need an order book. Maybe we can approximate it and we get some of these

really nice benefits to landing transactions and how transactions are sequenced. But uh yeah, there I think that um we'll continue to see a tighter integration between core devs and these market makers and uh people trading on chain to make it the best possible experience. >> Yeah, our our friend uh of the show Mike Dudis has tweeted today several things. One thing I enjoy reading soul takes near every bottom. Somebody saying that it's Bitcoin, Ethereum, hype and Zcash only. Can we kill the rest off and force the money into the others? Classic bare market take. But then Mert came out and tweeted today, "Good morning to everyone who voted against reducing Salana issuance to collect rent >> going well." I I responded, "Yikes." Um,

and Dudas also made a take that this didn't age well in reference to Lily Lu's uh 228 being too halfbaked uh earlier this year. Clearly, the Salana ecosystem wants to see their asset rally. Everyone wants to see soul go up. What do we got to do on the tokconomics side? Do we need to revisit uh 228? Do we like what is this, you know, SIMD0411 state of affairs? What is your read on this? What what do we need to do to kind of reignite the bullish tokconomics and, you know, kind of soul as an asset? How do we reignite this?

>> Yeah, there's a few things I think that the the stuff that you're hitting on and Mert's talking about will definitely help. There is a lot of leakage when it comes to issuance on a network. And when you think about why issuance was created from first principles, it was to kind of bootstrap this validator set and pay them and reward them. And Salana has a very healthy validator set now. I think there's around 750 validators. And so, um, I think there's more that can be done at that layer to kind of tweak it. But I would say that's one piece of the puzzle. The bigger piece is getting people using the chain, tra making transactions, trading, paying priority

fees, and when when was the peak of Soul? Like do you guys remember what day was >> Mania? >> Exactly. How many people were like trading on Salana? Like that was just >> I would guess insane. >> Several million at least all in the same trying to get in the same block. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh yeah, we had a crazy week. I think that week we made like over a million dollars a day and validators were making insane amounts of money. There was insane attention on Salana. Uh I don't know if we'll ever get back to that. Well, we'll definitely get back to it that I think it'll look a little different, but the 228 or the other 70, I can't remember. Those are important pieces, but at the end of the day, we got to get people sending more

transactions, more people using the chain, and that's something that we're trying to do with JTX. when when you're thinking about like how to get to, you know, some of these these usage levels and activity levels not seen since, you know, the Trump memecoin launch days, what what type of asset do you think is going to get us there? You know, there's still people out there, they're thinking NFTTS are going to bring us back to Valhalla. Like there's people out there, you know, looking for a memecoin resurgence. Maybe AI meme coins are what gets us there. We had a major major announcement on tokenized securities just over the last day or so.

And then obviously we've got, you know, we've got um commodities markets and and the typical native crypto markets. When you're looking at asset classes, what are you prioritizing in the per landscape on Jet? >> Uh yeah, I would say that pers are going to be really big for getting that. And there's a few I would say pers and rwas like securities and commodities because one, you can get leverage on them. two, you can get them 247 and those are kind of just unique offerings that don't really exist anywhere else. And so those are things that we're thinking a lot about. Um I really hope to see more guidance from

the SEC and other uh u regulatory agencies for getting more stocks on chain. the current kind of uh stock landscape on chain is not super great and so we really need more clarity from the SEC on that. There was that news that was out yesterday. I think Bloomberg broke it >> on uh maybe seeing more clarity there and potentially allowing third parties to tokenize stocks. I think that would be pretty interesting to see. But uh yeah, I would say like people people want to trade narratives. They want to trade global narratives. And so we're seeing a lot of these prediction

markets take off, like people talking about the uh what's going on in Iran or presidential elections or uh mayor races with like the LA mayor race and Spencer Pratt and um they want to trade oil and gold and all this stuff. And I would say people are kind of viewing themselves less less as crypto traders and more as traders. They just like trading things on blockchains because you can do it 24/7. It's extremely frictionless. And so that's kind of the way that we think about it is like we need people want to trade these narratives and these things that exist outside of the blockchain.

And so we need to figure out how to get them on the blockchain so people can trade them. And uh so yeah, I'd say that's that. I think that meme coins will probably always be a thing. Um, I don't know about NFTTS though. >> Yeah. >> Um, certainly wouldn't be against it. Lucas, would you venture to predict that perhaps on on JTX and on Phoenix and even on other venues Hyperlquid Variational Lighter, whatever it is, that by the end of the year the trading volume for non-crypto assets may be higher than crypto assets or how do you think about like the evolution of JTX, Hyperlquid,

all these other purpose platforms like what is is this just going to be a global speculation house of finance engine or is this going to be primarily still dominated by crypto pers with other assets kind of also involved? suppose it depends on the cycles of you know if commodities are hot or if equities are hot or if crypto is hot right but like just curious you know six months ago eight months ago we basically had very little RWA if you will per trading at all and now it's like absolutely blowing up and the entire like adjustment in building and in thesis for I think a lot of folks like yourselves is like no we're not just building these products for crypto assets we're building these

products for every asset how do you how do you know suspect the volume profile of something like a JTX will evolve over time into the end of the year into next year. What is kind of you know the factors that will drive that change? >> Yeah, I think that the I'm very confident the volumes in those the RWA and commodities and equities and things like that will continue to be up only essentially forever. Um I think the like blockchain the volume on blockchains is still such a small percentage of everything else that trades globally like yeah these

markets and perplexes and uh other venues are doing like crazy volume in crypto terms but it's important to zoom out and realize how big the everything else is and I am in this to bring all those markets on chain. I'm sure that's uh very exciting to you guys as well. And so I think that blockchains offer better systems to do it. I think it's cheaper. It's more transparent. It's faster. And so I think those volumes will continue to go up only. I think that there's probably some um clarity that would help from the SEC to accelerate that and hopefully we see

that soon. I think we've been super blessed with uh the way things have turned out compared to the previous four years on the regulatory side and I hope to see more of that happening and more innovation and so I think that will likely accelerate it but I think that uh we're going to keep building and many others are going to keep building and uh I think that the large opportunity is bringing a lot of this offchain stuff and these uh other markets onchain. Yeah, because I mean when you start to think about it, I think Matt Hooan put out this bullish tweet about it. He was like, you know, rather than thinking about this as like a three to four trillion dollar market, you're now talking like to the extent of 500 trillion to 750 trillion, you know, global market, right? Right. And so like

the whole valuation heruristics and the size and the TAM. And then what I think that's also interesting, Rob, we've been saying this a ton is that once this kind of tokenization of equities flywheel starts to really happen, you're going to get like this like institutional yield farming era where you're going to run back DeFi summer 2020, but in a much more managed way with large asset managers looping and borrowing against their equities and getting yield on them and putting them in vaults. like there's going to be this entire complex that grows from institutional allocators wanting to do more with their assets on chain and these this exact concept in the same way that the RWA 24/7 trade anything on JTX will likely balloon the

valuation of something like GTO the asset this same trend with the tokenization of equities and the using of these assets on chain will also probably balloon the valuations of a lot of these uh kind of like DeFi protocols commaminos, Jupiters, a morphos, etc. And so there's kind of like two tracks happening here with PERPS and with general defi, obviously per is really catching on now and the general defi kind of usage from institutions will probably be a bit slower. Um, but like yeah, just when you start to take your mind out of we're doing this only for crypto and you start to think like no, we're literally going to tokenize the entire world's assets and trade them.

you you like the whole valuation methodology is kind of you have to reset your priors with how you've been thinking about this entire industry. >> Yeah, I'm so bullish. I think there's a lot of builders that don't have this lens on and it's easy to get caught up in all these narratives, whether it's like crypto and AI and all this stuff, but when you zoom out and realize the opportunity here, it's just so so big. And I was talking to Shyon at multicoin a few months ago. He was talking about how like there's kind of a lot of these bull markets are built with uh like I'm going to kind of butcher this, but it's like new ways to speculate or new assets to trade. So there was like the ICOs in 2017.

2021 was kind of this like DeFi summer thing. And then um last cycle is memecoins. And I feel like this cycle it's going to be these like RWA pers and just RWA uh tokenized equities on chain. And so I think it's uh you know you're talking about uh Arthur and the bottoms in. I definitely think the bottoms in and I think that this is going to be a the main theme for the next cycle. >> Let's go, man. >> Wow.

>> Pulled up. >> Pulled up. Bulled up. Let's check the chat. I think the guys are bulled up on you as well. Um, are you guys using or is it fair to think that JTX will look like a Bloomberg terminal or will it look more like a Thinker Swim trading platform built from Charles Swap? >> Yeah, I think that it will look more like uh probably more like an interactive brokers. I haven't actually used Thinker Swim before, but um it will be this like proumer pro retail trading terminal. Really good order execution, a bunch of different order types.

We've kind of talked about like integrating news in there. I think news is more relevant uh when you have assets that like when you're bringing offchain assets onchain. So like Apple product launches or earnings reports or things like that. Uh for onchain stuff it doesn't really matter. There's like the most the best sense of news for onchain only assets is probably Twitter and that Twitter UI is like pretty good. >> Yeah.

Yeah. That that is something that I think we're we're seeing a lot more of especially as these things expand and the modalities here expand, asset classes converge. Everyone's looking to trade whatever the category that's hot is. They'll kind of go to these different places. Do you prescribe to this financial super app thesis where you're kind of uh got everything all the asset classes news trading per all the different modalities for all the asset classes under one roof? How do you segment okay this is our focus versus okay this is maybe something that's hot and trendy but we're not going to incorporate it too deep into our stack.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we had a lot of discussion when we were building JTX on this and um it's a huge temptation to try to build everything at once. I think the challenge that you run into is you build everything mediocre and you kind of build something for no one. Like it's like, oh, I wish there was like a slightly better yield experience and a slightly better trading experience and like slightly better prediction markets and so on. And I think you you can definitely get there over time. Like we've seen Robin Hood transform to this financial behemoth and they're kind of like the the best example of this financial super app. I think it's a mistake to start there though and so we

are really focused on this like pro retail pro proumer trading audience because we think they are underserved on Salana and then um you know probably expand from there but the that audience is extremely core to us and we cannot make that mistake that so many other teams fall into. >> Yeah. All right Lucas man back to Valhalla we will see you there. Uh, I really appreciate your time. It was good to have you on for the first time. We'd love to have you. Love to just do periodic check-ins with you. I know that this PERPS kind of uh focus for Salana for you is going to be very very intense. Um, and it's going to be probably one of the most important things that Salana has ever, you know,

done in its in its time, right, is getting this right, nailing this and being being a a global trading uh tra anything onchain platform. And uh and I think it's it's it's uh it's very clear that this is where the space is headed uh in terms of people want to trade all these assets as we've spoken about and it's also very clear that uh the time for Salana is now right to to really make a big push here. Um so thanks for thanks for coming on. Appreciate you you uh sharing some thoughts and wishing you a good launch. I mean you're about two months away so we'll have to have you on again.

>> Yeah, let's do it. Thanks for having me. >> Thanks. >> Thank you, Lucas. >> Cheers, buddy. All righty, guys. That is the the push, Rob. I mean, we will see this time and time again for there is going to just be this endless endless push to win this market. There's a big announcement from another per platform this week, I believe, for their RWA launch, right? And so, you know, if you pull up Perpetual Pulse, XYZ, and some of the uh uh HIP3 rankings, you can pretty quickly see that, you know, some of these are just absolutely going to dominate.

>> I just, you know, I can't help but think that Hyperlid has sort of won this game. >> Yeah, >> I think I think obviously we're going to see a lot more per uh come into the fold. Um, you know, I'm I'm unconvinced on the Salana thesis. Uh, I think, you know, we're going to see the new L1 trade taken over by the alternative trading systems from the New York Stock Exchange and NASDAQ. They're in a position because they've already got the native issuance. You know, I I took a read through and I think we'll read through on this new section around this new tokenization, this innovation exemption from the SEC, and it feels like, you know, New York Stock Exchange and NASDAQ are in a position to offer PERPS on their assets, uh, just as much

as, you know, Hyperlquid and Solana are going to be issuing PERS on these assets as well. So when I think about the beneficiaries of this, I just can't help but think it's primarily the the leaders of this space already, not the ones. >> Yeah. That's kind of how the market is evolving, isn't it, Rob? Like the like the consolidation towards the leaders in the biggest trends. >> Exactly. And so I think Hyperlid is going to win. I think New York Stock Exchange is going to win. Uh those who are innovating themselves before they get innovated. But then you look at this cohort that is trying to play the catch-up. uh across across you know a lot of these segments and I'm unconvinced at the strategy.

>> Well, let me let's actually look at some of the numbers because I think it's pretty it's pretty nuts when you look at the OI and the kind of volume for these non-crypto pairs. So, I've got uh HIPP3 daily volume and daily OI up on the screen here and you can see basically that uh it's just been up only for OI, right? Like on on the right, I mean >> incredible incredible to see that that is >> it's been insane.

>> Yeah, that is a that is not linear growth. That is exponential growth in the making >> billions per per day. And obviously this is you know on the heels of you know there's tremendous open interest here on the native assets Bitcoin uh ETH hype itself uh >> and yesterday trade XYZ did $3.24 24 billion dollars of trading right volume. >> And so the S&P, oil, like the >> any of those. Yeah, exactly. >> These are things that are getting a significant amount of open interest through trade XYZ. >> Yeah.

>> And all of that is flowing into Hyperlid. And then you've got, you know, the preIPO markets that are just, you know, I think SpaceX was was uh right around two trillion. And Hyperlid is becoming the venue to speculate on these preo launches. >> Well, check this out, right? the HIPP daily HP3 daily OI versus total. >> Yeah, >> you can see that >> it started in November at about 3% two and a half percent. Dude, we are at almost 30% of the total OI on Hyperlid is non-crypto assets.

>> Wow. I I think this is the the most significant argument for why Hyperlid is becoming not a crypto app but a finance app. I mean, dude, the the XYZ 100, which I believe is the NASDAQ, um, is doing 500 million a day >> or it's done 500 million today, >> right? Yesterday did 513. >> Yep. >> 500 is doing 3 million. >> Yeah. >> So, this is >> crazy. I and again like >> number of trades just >> maybe there's a prop AMM technical architecture >> that Lucas is talking about that is able

to >> overcome the volume and moat and user activity advantage that Hyperlid has right now but I don't see it I don't see some some new technical architecture that is able to like reduce the fees to some you know some to to to near zero and overcome hyper for liquids liquidity and open interest advantage. I think this is the place where price discovery happens and I think that is going to be a flywheel that continues to perpetuate and there's not a a second best. Yeah. Yeah man. I mean that is uh this is the this AX or ASXN hyperscreener site on the HIP3 markets.

This is like my kind of like the go-to for me to just make sure her that you know if the thesis is you're going to go higher because of non crypto volumes then the thesis is that you're going to be trading this and that the OI should be going up with it. Right. And so obviously there's I think there's a lot to discuss on the heels of um this tokenization announcement, third party, you know, tokenization of securities. >> People are just kind of assuming that Hyperlid is going to be the major benefactor of this.

Um I think there's a lot more to be discussed there as far as who is going to be the major benefit interest benefit of this because you've got right now you've got these indices and you know you don't have single stocks on trade XYZ but you've effectively got you know securities that are listed and so you know the regulatory mode is becoming less you know but there's regulatory arbitrage to be had. I think there's there's a really deep discussion on on how the advancement of this tokenization innovation exemption third party uh tokenization of securities who will be the b biggest benefactor of that. Yeah, >> I think you can make make an argument around Hyperlquid, but then I think there's an argument that says, hey, Hyperliquid's already benefiting from

this if they make a true innovation exemption that opens up the rest of the market to list these assets >> and in in which it it may take from Hyperlid's current lead. So, >> New Type says, are we back above the OI levels following the 1010 crash? Um, I can tell you right now as we pull up the news, let me let me pull that up for you. >> All right. Well, Andy, as you're looking for that, we're going to look at we're going to we're going to go to sports.

We're We're going to look at >> We're at 9 billion dollars of open interest, just so you guys know. I think that is pretty much right about where we were. It was between that 9 and12 billion mark. Let's look at sports. What happened here, Rob? Well, I was watching this live and it was insane how the crowd went mute. This crowd was absolutely buzzing. >> Absolutely buzzing. And you guys will see this shot from a seven. >> Got numbers down behind the plate. Five on four. Weby's going to pull a deep three.

>> My goodness, >> dude. Insane shot. 108 now behind the plate. >> And let me hit this shot with a deep. >> Wow, what a shot. >> And this is when the momentum turned and then I think the Spurs ended up winning by 10 or so in double overtime. >> Yeah, I I fell asleep. I couldn't do double overtime. I was too busy thinking about purr. >> Yeah, I don't blame you, guys. Let's keep going. Uh there's plenty to talk about in uh a savage Rob.

>> Oh, absolutely. I mean, he saw he saw a dog and just you just saw villain mode get activated. But guys, tokenization the innovation exemption uh for tokenized stocks is what will pave the path for trading digital versions of securities. Again, we're talking about, you know, who is the biggest benefactor of this. Um, you can make an argument around Hyperlquid as the venue to trade these uh digital versions of securities. This is why I'm talking about digital finance because we're we're getting to a point where we're digitizing and tokenizing these securities. Now, it was interesting that securitiz and I think we have the article which was behind a payw wall, but I think we were able to

to pay the $2 Bloomberg subscription fee and we're going to show it to you guys. And so, um, Securitize was quoted in this article. They obviously do native issuance. So they're not necessarily a fan of this because what this article talks about is third-party tokenization of securities, not necessarily issuance native securities. So there's a lot of nuance here, but ultimately details include um what they call a surprise move that the SEC is leaning towards the uh trading of tokenized assets. Guys, if you've been watching our show and you've been keeping track of the SEC, you know that this is not a surprise move. We had Hester Pierce on. We went to DC Blockchain Summit. They're talking about the Clarity Act. We know that there's a

category in the Clarity Act that is labeled securities tokens. And we know that they're prioritizing tokenization as the means to trade these assets because they're prioritizing 247 and real time disclosures. And so all of this is gearing towards tokenization. And obviously we've seen digital transfer agents partner up with tokenization protocols. uh that has happened. Bullish has done that. Securitize has done that. And we're seeing more and more public companies uh tokenize their assets uh at the issuance level.

And soon we believe that this is going to happen at the third party level as well, which is going to open up companies that currently are not working with the issuers, right? And so Andy, I think you know, you and I have talked about some of the companies that are out there in this spectrum of this this distributed assets versus these representative representative assets. Distributed assets means you're issuing at or excuse me, you're tokenizing at the issuance level. This is what we call native tokenization and you're proliferating these assets. They're all they all hold the same shareholder rights.

>> Yep. what we're talking about doing now and you know there's more details in the article but we're talking about thirdparty tokenization the issuers may not have any involvement in the tokenization of their own cap table which is a huge development >> yeah it will also lack voting and dividend rights potentially >> so um yeah and so here's here's the article right and so we'll we'll flip back to the to the tweet summary in a little bit let's pause here >> right Trump administration poised to roll out a plan for trading digital versions of securities that could reshape the landscape of the American stock market.

>> Yep. >> Let's keep let's keep scrolling. Uh there were some very important pieces in this. Uh the SEC is expected to release its so-called innovation exemption as soon as this week, which is absolutely incredible. This is a time frame on this innovation exemption and uh this would create a new framework uh for speculating on the fortune of these publicly traded companies. Uh the next two paragraphs are where there the the meat and potatoes really is a surprise move. We know that the SEC has been pushing tokenization. They're now leaning towards a decision that would allow trading of tokens that do not have the backing or consent of the public companies whose shares they track.

>> Crazy, man. >> Absolutely insane that you could go public. You know, Elon is working on taking SpaceX public. he may have no involvement in where some of these shares go, right? And this is the same problem that we faced on chain when it came to tokenizing or excuse me came to wrapping a lot of these assets. We already understand how liquidity gets fragmented and there's more on this later in this article, >> but essentially >> our boy just pulled it to the office full house here. >> Let's let's go let's go back to this previous paragraph. There's more here. So the SEC in the surprise move, right?

These public companies may not have the backing or consent of these shares. These third-party tokens, effectively a novel way way to speculate on the direction of the share price, would be tradable on decentralized crypto platforms. Though not all such instruments necessarily carry the same benefits as normal stocks, voting rights or dividends. Under the SEC's proposal of this innovation exemption, platforms that fail to provide those benefits would lose the right to list the tokens. >> Oh my gosh. Wait, so >> is going to go into cryptoland and regulate these platforms?

And so >> it says it says under the SEC proposal platforms that failed to provide those benefits would lose >> the right to list the tokens which means that the assets themselves need to maintain the shareholder rights the voting rights and the dividends that these shareholders have a right to >> or else they won't be able to be used >> and this needs to be enforced at the platform level right and so there's tokenization levels there's asset levels there's issuance levels ultimately you know the issuance the issue ers are just taking their stock public. What happens after that is outside of their control.

Previously, that was very, very tightly regulated by the SEC. What they're saying now is that they're going to open up the they're going to loosen the strings. They're going to let third-party tokenization companies place rappers around these shares and let you trade these shares. So, right now, you know, let's just break this this uh stack into three parts. Yeah, issuers are the companies themselves. They're taking the companies public and issuing shares. >> Tokenization companies are at the middle. They're operating in a few different capacities.

On one end of the spectrum, they're helping the issuers tokenize their shares directly and natively on chain. >> Yep. On the other side of the spectrum, they are the third parties that are taking these shares that are just out there in the ether just owned in these SPVS and they're to they're buying up these shares and tokenizing because then they own the shares directly with themselves. Not worth the issuer natively, but they own some shares and they're going to tokenize these shares and then they're going to lead to some some volume and activity in the secondary markets via this third-party tokenization. And this is the difference between uh distributed tokenized assets and represented tokenized assets which is just the representation of these

third party shares. So basically and then I just want to I just want to close the third point by say this third category is the platforms the platforms which could enable the trading and and the back and forth buying and selling of these third party assets whether that that is native tokenization uh native tokenized shares or third party tokenized shares. That's the venue where this trading I is happening and that is where these these tokenized assets are listed and those venues could lose the ability to list those assets if they don't maintain shareholder rights. the the rights. So, if I'm understand this correctly, if this was to go through, and it's actually funny because new type is in the chat saying that uh Ono is

going to be in a great spot. I you know I'm inondo it's going to be a big beneficiary of this but from what I'm understanding any tokenized asset that does not specifically equity that is not provide the dividends voting rights and full equity ownership such as a securitizer a superstate a dinari somebody that is doing it natively doing it the right way with a broker dealer license with uh all the proper transfer agents all of this if you're not doing it that way you're in deep trouble. So this is a great point and I think this is a second clip like there's a lot to unpack here right

so on after so now that we've set the stage I I think there is a debate on who is the biggest benefactor of this and what you're saying is one perspective that I I could see an argument that says hey those who are doing native tokenization the centrifuges the the the securitizes the dinaris they are the biggest benefactor because they're maintaining shareholder rights >> exactly >> I could also see the argument that says all tokenization protocols whether distributed or represented as long as they maintain SEC compliance are going to be bene benefactors of this but the venues are going to differentiate >> the venues are the ones that could lose to yes the hyperlquids or the gtos or uh

you know the centralized venues these are the guys that might have to you know be the determinant of who gets the shareholder rights and they're the ones that could lose out on the right to list these tokens and lose out on all of the open interest and all of the volume that could come with trading these assets, right? So, >> I wonder if per is a part of this. >> Well, absolutely. I think if you're if you're creating derivatives, which per is a derivative of a share, >> you know, the the there's multiple derivatives, right? And so, the first derivative is that it's a tokenized share. you know, whether it's a n if it's a native tokenized share that's a little bit less derivative than a represented share. But either way, you're creating a derivative of the

asset itself, then you're creating a derivative contract via a per perpetual contract of that tokenized share. That's what you're trading. >> Okay. So, New Type is saying it's for sure bearish hyperlquid. There's zero chance they will allow non non KYC platforms and basically pers do not give you any of the rights. >> Exactly. And so, everyone is saying that this is so bullish. Hyperlid but and maybe it is maybe there is some compliance effort that Hyperlid is is able to integrate or maybe it's done at the trade XYZ level and Hyperlid is able to just create the infrastructure underneath but ultimately you know everyone is saying that this is super bullish Hyperlid and I think if I'm reading this correctly this is extremely

bullish for all tokenized >> tokenization companies native or distributed represented all kinds of tokenization companies This is great, but the venues, there are some more regulated venues that this is going to benefit. >> Yeah. >> And then others others are going to lose these tokens >> spot or pers because like you could just argue that per derivative contract, right? >> Yeah. But you need to maintain the shareholder rights in order to list these assets according to >> But you're not listing the asset itself.

>> You're listing a derivative contract of the asset. >> Right. Exactly. And I think >> I think there's a big difference between hey I'm buying spot on unis swap of >> Nvidia token versus I'm putting a 5x long on a derivative of on a per platform. You know what the diff I I think the difference is and and we should scroll down a little bit more in this article, but I think the difference is whether if you're if you're placing if you're listing the spot asset and the spot asset is a security token, you're regulated by the SEC. But if you're if you're listing a perpetual contract or a derivatives contract, I think you're reg you're regulated by

the CFTC. And so I think that's primarily the difference. And with respect to this innovation exemption, this is coming from the SEC. And so this may not fall within the per like hyperlquid may not fall within the purview, but if you're listing securities tokens, >> it falls within SEC. Now, if you're listing derivatives contracts or futures contracts, remember CFTC is commodities futures trading commission. If you're listing futures contracts or perpetual contracts, >> you fall into the CFTC. But if those contracts are securities are of security tokens, it's a it's ultimately these things are going to get more regulated, right? And and this is going to be an adapt or die sort of framing that I think we're going to see a lot more of.

>> Um let's let's keep going in this article. >> Yeah, let's keep going. >> I do think it's going to be um well, actually, let's let's get into those couple of paragraphs there that that we just scrolled past uh because that's new. Um, and I think there's going to be debate on who the b biggest benefactors of this, but what we have here is that uh the move, this innovation exemption would mark one of the most significant regul regulatory tests yet of whether stock trading can migrate onto blockchain rail >> Yeah, >> go ahead. I I just think that there's going to be a big difference between spot and per, right? Like it's gonna it's going to for sure be a difference.

So, >> but this is but I think you're right like the venue >> the venue is going to have to select who they but like like unis swap can't stop me from making a pool for ano wrap token paired with ETH but if the SEC goes to unis swap and says hey you need to kill these pools then I guess that's kind of maybe where we're getting to like >> well remember if the venues are gonna have to So, so Black Rockck partnered with Securitize and Uniswap to allow transferability of >> Bidd. Yeah.

>> Now, right now, Bidd is a KYC product. So, >> right, >> Uniswap has some sort of KYC implementation because it's not permissionless. You can't just send Biddth between each other. There there is some permissioning that is happening at the venue level that prevents people from permissionlessly [snorts] swapping these assets. And I think that is the future for these RWA markets as it pertains to securities tokens. And you know, if we're just >> and and so just to read a couple of, you know, the the these last paragraphs here before we bring up our next guest, >> by allowing third parties to create

tokenized versions of public company shares without issuer consent, the SEC would open a multi-year experiment into whether parallel markets for listed stocks can function outside of the regulatory framework. The SEC has said tokenized securities fall into two categories. Those tokenized by or on behalf of issuers, right? And that's native tokenization. And those tokenized by third parties that are not directly affiliated with issuers. That's third party or representative uh representative tokenization. >> SEC officials are still working on the exemption and details could change before it is released. Right now we know native issuance is okay. We have that happening right now.

>> Y >> but what this innovation exemption would allow for is that third party or that representative issu uh tokenization. Um, an SEC spokesperson said the agency has met with hundreds of market participants and saw broad feedback. So again, I don't know how the venues will adapt to this, but I think this is broadly bullish for tokenization companies. >> Well, boy oh boy, do we have the right person to come on next. We've got Carl Vogle who just released a tokenizing trillions report >> and in that he talked about the tokenization premium as well as just generally how Sixman Ventures is thinking about tokenization his view on this uh applying this tokenization attractiveness ratio to different asset

classes um and thinking about security guarantees and all different types of institutional grade tooling and more. So this is going to be quite the conversation. Rob, I think we should start with the, you know, this news. Yeah. >> Right. Maybe present our thesis, get some feedback, >> and then we got to dive into this >> tokenization premium risk adjusted returns the and I mean really I think this tokenization premium concept is something that is is very interesting. So this is >> let's go ahead and get Carl up.

>> Let's do it. This is what we love to do. We love to do our own research. We love to build our thesis and then share it with people that are smarter than us and let us let them tell us where we're right, where we're wrong, and ultimately upgrade our mental model. Carl, welcome to the show. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having me. >> What's up, man? >> How you doing? >> Uh, we just talked about 15 minutes about tokenization, so I'd say we're pretty fired up. >> Okay. Well, I hope you're ready for 30 more. >> Let's do it. Let's do Well, so Rob was just, you know, kind of giving his take on this SEC framework with regards to allowing for tokenized equities to trade on blockchains effectively without issuer permissions. And we're just talking about kind of like the consequences of this, right? What is the

thesis? What is the second and third order thinking? Rob, maybe you just want to share some of your ideas here uh around the the benefactors and just kind of how you think about this. >> So, let's do it. Let's let's set the stage stage here. Um, and Carl, you know, I'm sure you're already familiar with this, but for anyone who's not, just for the context here, there's effectively two types of tokenization. Uh, you've got native tokenization. There's companies like Securitize that are working directly with issuers to tokenize their shares. Uh, so that all of those tokenized shares maintain the same shareholder rights, voting rights, dividends, governance rights, all all, etc. Then you've got this third-party SPV wrapped tokenized uh representative tokenized shares where the issuers are not involved. You know, Elon can take uh

SpaceX publics uh SpaceX public, he would have no knowledge. If a third party comes along and tokenizes some of those SpaceX shares, those are uh these representative tokenized assets. The SEC is rumored to have something coming out as soon as this week uh which is called this innovation exemption. Uh and we know that the SEC is already pro-native tokenization uh that first that first batch. But what this innovation exemption seems to allow for is third-party tokenization which is this wrapped version right which doesn't necessarily have any issuer involvement.

And so my understanding, I kind of break it down into three categories. In my mental model, we have the issuers. They're chiefly responsible for just taking the companies public, doing a good job in their business. They have a cap table. They issue some shares. That's about all that they do. They don't have they don't really think or worry about any of the tokenization, you know, hoopla. Then you've got the tokenization companies. They sometimes work directly with the issuers to natively tokenize. And then other times are doing this representative tokenization work. And then the third pillar is the venues. There's one really important piece in this Bloomberg article that talks about this innovation exemption that says um if the it doesn't specifically call out venues, I want to

make sure I get the language right, but effectively under the SEC's proposal, platforms that fail to provide those benefits, the the shareholder benefits, the voting rights, and the dividends, platforms that fail to provide those benefits would lose the right to list the tokens. So we've got issuers, we've got tokenization companies, and then we've got platforms or venues. Again, I'll and this is kind of the last point here. My understanding, my take is that this is broadly bullish for all tokenization companies because we already know native tokenization companies are doing quite well. They're going directly with the issuers and getting buy in. This would be bullish as well for the third-party tokenization companies because it would essentially

bring them under uh regulatory acceptance. The the the sticky part is the venues, those that you know maintain compliance and maintain shareholder rights, they're able to benefit from this innovation exemption and able to list the tokens. anyone that doesn't have KYC, doesn't maintain shareholder rights, doesn't maintain governance and and voting rights, they're potentially going to lose out on all of the open interest, all of the volume that could come with these new tokenized assets and and the new activity that that it brings with them. So, there's a lot to unpack here.

There's there's there's spot, you know, is this regulated? It is, is it not? Do platform venues, you know, do they all fall under this umbrella? Carl, that was a lot. I I want to get I'd love to get your read on it. >> Get your read on it. I want to get your reaction to it and then, you know, please pick apart our our thesis here. >> No, I think you're heading exactly in the right direction. In fact, in my piece, I I highlight three core categories. One is crypto native products. One is real world asset products or products that exist and have their record of authority in the traditional financial system. But then there is a an intermediary that basically tokenizes it and then creates a new structure such that token holders have rights to the underlying token. And then there's the native issuance itself

where there is no intermediary. You basically have direct ownership and the record of authority is on blockchain or in some sort of blockchain connected system. So I also have a similar worldview in how I view things. Um, I've been really impressed with the SEC more broadly and how they're trying to drive innovation. They want founders to return to the US. They want the regular US consumer to be able to trade these companies and have access to these companies. You know, we're seeing massive wealth creation with all of these AI companies that, you know, the American people are literally missing out on trillions of dollars of of value creation. as I think the SEC sees this and is taking proactive steps to try to enable some of these private assets to

be tokenized as well as public equities to be able to be um traded and accessed in a more convenient platform than some of the brokerage products that exist today. >> Yeah. And and so Carl, do you have a specific read then? And I know that we're going to get into this tokenization premium. I love the the uh the the piece and all the graphics. It was very insightful and I'm going to bring them up on screen. Do you do you think there's any specific winners here or benefactors here? And I think specifically with the language that if these platforms don't support the ability for these shares to have the full dividend and voter rights, then they will be asked to basically or they'll have their rights removed from

their ability to trade this. Is there like a tokenization company that is going to be a bigger winner here? Is there like a trading venue? is, you know, people are saying this is really bearish for pers because, for example, on on Hyperlid, you can't there's no uh rights to the perp of NASDAQ because it's just a perp derivative. There's kind of a lot of different ideas here. How would you kind of run through the winners losers of this? >> I think in crypto there's a lot more opportunity for vertical integration. And so to me, if I was to look at is it easy to move up the stack or down the stack? If you look at it from I have something that's completely unre unregulated, extremely cryptonative. I'm going to now move up the stack and KYC users and offer some sort of rights to

tokens and or dividends and uh other voting authorities that have uh that are incurred when you hold a share of a company. If I had to think about moving up the stack versus the regulated companies today like the securitizes, the superstates for them they're essentially now getting a green light that they can build their own venue if they want to. And so I think the the regulated players today are now getting that sandbox or that authority. If this is true, by the way, I think we're we're all here just to be clear, uh speculating on what might come out. Uh they have the opportunity to very quickly, I would say, acquire other companies or create their own venues or platforms and build that vertical integration. And by the way, Secure Tai, Superstate, they've already tokenized, I'm assuming, tens of thousands, if not

hundreds of thousands of users and institutions. And so now they can immediately turn on these products for them because they already have the KYC. They've already approved the user. They already understand how to share dividends and how to do voting rights. They they have the team and the expertise to move outside of their current mandate where they're allowed to operate versus uh you know someone like a a hyperlquid or a fully decentralized perpetual product. to your point based on the wording it's not clear to me on how they can all of a sudden now and what they want to KYC users and start to move up in this direction um so that I always think about vertical integration it's a superpower and we see it in AI we see it in crypto and uh I think the securitizes and others moving out has

the best chance to um increase their increase the value capture that they have today >> you know Carl for uh you know previous cycles we had this concept of web 2.5 five uh you know kind of sitting in between you know uh social media and and previous you know iterations of of the internet applications and now decentralized applications. It feels as if we're in you know finance 2.5 land. That is kind of the sweet spot where there's a lot of winners. these securitized superstates that have you know tentacles in both obviously deep roots in tokenization but going out and doing the hard work of becoming compliant and also you know getting the lensure around transfer agents and these sorts of things so that they can play in both arenas but even within finance 2.5

not everyone is created equal right there's players like secure and superstate as you mentioned but then you've also got you know theo dinari centrifuge kind of everyone is at at different part here. Could you help untangle some of these players as we think through, you know, who is in a better position? Is it the distributed tokenization companies or is it the representative tokenization companies? Because >> previous to this, you know, rumor, it seemed as if the native tokenization companies were kind of >> doing things the right way, if you will, not skipping step, but but moving slower. This innovation exemption seems to have paved the way for those representative companies that those third-party tokenization companies that

weren't dealing with directly with the issuers to now come into the fold and and play in a very similar ball game as those native tokenization companies. Is that the right read? How how do you view you know parsing out this tokenization finance 2.5 category? >> I entirely agree with that. So I think using superstate and securitize they are the the most regulated and the most uh and have I think the greatest opportunity but nonetheless all of those companies now have been operating under exemptions and basically the exemptions are now they're now instead of operating by exemptions going to be able to operate by the rules right when you unlock that that's actually huge for them in some ways some of those companies might also be more hungry because they've not been able to really access the US market in the same way

that the others have and so I do think all of these companies that have full regulatory uh compliance or representative status uh are now going to be pursuing this headstrong. Um in terms of how to untangle them, to me it's like I had dinner with some of these uh different teams and it's like I'd say a intersection of barbed wire and it would be pretty tough to start actually un you know taking this apart and trying to un wind that nest. Uh but nonetheless, I think everyone's going to be pursuing this and I I'm really excited for the innovation that's going to be occurring assuming this passes uh over the next three to six months.

>> Yeah. And just uh one clarification, the like the wrap models like the XT stocks or the Onondo wrap tokens, those do not give you the same level of voting rights and dividend and ownership as like a natively issued uh wrapped equity from a native like a secured size or super a dinari. So uh why would those be in a better spot than the natively issued ones? Is it because this is giving them the green light to um but like yeah I'm just kind of confused because from what I understand the wrap token model is kind of in trouble if this goes through but am I not thinking about that right

>> to be honest this is not an area where I am a absolute authority or expert and so my general read is uh this is all about speed and I think what you've seen is a lot of these uh representative companies now be able like this basically gives them the green light to acquire the right teams or acquire the right senior staff to make sure they're fully in compliance with the new set of rules. Um, so I I just think they're um I I spent years at Paxos and as an example, Paxos always moved slower than some of the other companies and the reason for that is they already had the regulatory status and so for them they were going after the largest institutions in the world to offer them services and they

couldn't be uh affected by let's say some other more risky uh strategy that other companies could take um because it would detrimentally impact the relationship ship with the large financial institution or with the regulators, right? You know, if you do something that's outside of the bounds of what's acceptable, uh you're going to have the regulator regulator sending an email pretty quick. And so, I think even with this exemption, there still might be open questions. I think even now there's a period of a couple years where we have this and it's unclear how long this lasts or what happens if administrations change. And so I think though this other tier of companies are going to be moving very quickly to try to increase their uh position and total of AUum in the ecosystem.

>> Yeah, Carl, we're going to pull up the um piece here. So if you look in the back end, you'll see it or if you just want to pull it up on your side. And so tokenizing trillions and you've I just I mean might as well start here with this tokenization barbell at the top here. So, um, so you've kind of got this tokenization barbell and we can start and kind of go through the piece, but this already caught our eye and just kind of thinking about how, sorry guys, how tokenization adds the most value, right? And so, you're kind of claiming that from the perspective of like a barbell, tokenization provides the the most value on kind of two sides of this.

So maybe just kind of walk through this because Rob and I have been iterating on this evolutionary idea of we started with the most basically nonspeculative uh assets, you know, stable coins even all the way now to T bills, then into kind of uh now like credit stuff and then all the way to equities, then all the way to like private credit and like, you know, even more risky products. And so we've kind of like done tokenization on a spectrum of risk. At least that's how it's been kind of iterated on. And I think that's kind of what you're getting at here, but you also have a thesis now about where you see the most value acrewing. Um, walk us through this this this kind of image here.

>> Yeah, it's terrific. So, generally, I think this is the crux of the piece. The general way I think about the world is I try to approach it from first principles wherever possible, right? And blockchains enable instant settlement. They enable programmable money. And so when you start thinking about the benefits of blockchain, uh the global access to capital and how that can start to create value, I think it's both in terms of assets that require large amounts or can can have large amounts of looping where basically you're depositing the asset, borrowing against it, depositing the asset, borrowing against it, doing this in a permission and multiple time way. That is a really really powerful primitive that for the average person is not at all um uh possible to achieve in the current

financial system and even for institutions they might have caps or limits or certain margin requirements that may be quite ownorous based on the current regulations. I think here what happens in crypto is I can program program programmatically loop an asset three four five times and just by default I am now going to be able to get a higher yield on that asset relative that if I had it in the traditional financial system and so like taking a step back assets are not going to come on chain we are not going to have trillions on chain if that if uh institutions and people can earn better yields and better returns elsewhere right so we need better riskadjusted return one of the ways to do that is to loop a low volatility asset a number of times. The reason low volatility is

important is most of the loans today are overcolateralized and so if it has low volatility you'll be able to borrow more against the notional value of that asset. Uh we see this with assets like stretch today that are very low have very low volatility but they yield 10 plus%. And so you can use platforms like Saturn and others to basically loop this a number of times and you're driving better returns on stretch in DeFi than you can in the traditional system today. So that is one end of the spectrum. Extremely powerful looping and using it as pristine collateral for basis trading and other sorts of automated strategies.

You want those assets. They're really terrific to put on chain. And by the way, history has shown that if you look at the largest asset classes on chains, it's tokenized money markets and stable coins, the lowest volatility assets. >> Yeah. >> But then when you start to look at the other side of this, >> blockchain enables massive amounts of innovation and programmability. And so what happens? Well, now when I have an asset, you know, we always see like Trump tweets at Friday night or Saturday night. If you're a traditional trader, you're now trying to hedge your risk over the weekend or trying to get out of it via some OTC deal. Well, in crypto markets, that's not an issue. That's why so many traders made money on oil using hyperlquid and decentralized perpetuals because they could trade immediately.

So, that 24/7 access, global capital formation, um the ability to also have really sophisticated uh liquidation engines. So if you do take on too much margin, the ability to immediately sell off that asset to a number of different biders for the highest value, all of these primitives are really only possible on blockchains. And so the high volatility assets where you want the risk, you actually can in some ways take on less risk because you can get out of your position quicker and be able to buy other people's liquidations at lower prices than you might be able to otherwise in the traditional system. So that ultimately leads me to this barbell approach. again like people in crypto love to go to the gym. So barbells are a very common framework that people in

crypto use. But I think volatility a volatility barbell is the right way how I think about the tokenization premium. And to focus on the middle, this is the hardest and least interesting. Again, if you have an asset like gold or equities or or crypto, these things have these things have almost 247 or near 24/7 oracles taking place. So you can always understand what is the risk, what is the position that I'm in. But if yeah if you look at things like real estate, private equity, even venture capital, we only do marks every 3 months, right? We do quarterly navs of the fund. And so with those assets, you sure you can tokenize them, but you can't borrow against them very effectively because there's not a real term a real-time price that you can

always reference to understand the value of your assets to be able to start doing the looping or other types of benefits. So, I think that middle is a pretty tough spot and it doesn't mean there's there isn't amazing things going on there. In fact, when native issuance really starts to take off, they're going to go after this middle wedge and start to do very well in things like the PayFi ecosystem and new forms of chain credit. But for the next one or two years, and when you talk about what the SEC is enabling, I really expect the edges of volatility to uh get the most benefits. >> Very cool.

>> Love it. >> Um, very very cool. Uh I I think you know what we're seeing right now it does feel like it's this institutional FOMO. Um and we're also hearing the calls for what people are calling institutional yield farming. You know part of the thesis that we've talked about is yes the the uh the the tokenization of the risk curve. We start with some of the more basic things and then we ultimately go further down the risk curve. Cash means stable coins. Tokenized treasuries comes next. Then we go further and further and then as you're saying it's not necessarily just go down the risk curve but there is a sequence in terms of the attractiveness of certain assets.

Um ultimately these things get tokenized but then they find themselves into these DeFi primitives like you said looping staking some of these mechanisms. Who where who do you think is best positioned to be a benefactor of a lot of the flows that we can expect from tokenization? You know, is it is it, you know, the lending protocols? Is it, you know, some more of these vault complexes? What segments of DeFi do you think are in the best position to benefit here?

>> It's a great question. I think there's three. So, to be clear, I think everyone has the opportunity to benefit. And let me talk about why that is. And it's a matter of speed and the ability to innovate. I think wallets have an incredible opportunity especially when you talk about sort of KYC um the ability for users to very quickly in a regulated fashion move into some of these different assets. Wallets actually can hold the credentials of the user and they're the gateway and UI of the user in a way where now they can share credentials appropriately with all these different asset issuers or all these different platforms to users to be able to go ahead and start trading. And so wallets actually incredibly well positioned. We've looked at a number of emerging wallet teams focused on this KYC um opportunity and I think with the

new SEC guidance that uh might come out, it just supercharges that opportunity and that land grab for wallets. So wallets continue to be the place where assets are held where users need to interact with the system and so any sort of unique requirements and constraints wallets are are in the right position. I also think money market funds are the obvious obvious obvious winners here where as they can start to bring more assets on chain. They now can go ahead and earn a spread and create better products for users. The big opportunity for these money market funds is uh enabling instant liquidity for things that are not 247 liquid. So, for example, uh, Upshift just launched um an integration

with Superstate through their upshift clear product and you know there is a tokenized fund that Superstate um has and or has tokenized and it only has redemptions I think it's daily or every 24 hours. Well, if you're DeFi and somebody gets uh you know um has bad debt, you need to get rid of that right away. You can't wait 24 hours. So we need this intermediate layer for these things that are not 247 liquid to basically create a market where these money market protocols can continue to operate with healthy debt levels but also bring on these more innovative type of assets that are not 100% cryptonative. So that's the big opportunity for lending protocols. A lot of great teams and work going on there.

And then the trading platforms uh I was talking to a team where they're actually building indices on top of equities. So things like, hey, everyone wants to trade the Pelosi index, but like it's actually who's going to build the index? Well, now in crypto, anyone can build that index or build any sort of index based on relevant news and comments and users can opt into that. And so there's going to be a lot of innovation in the equities and commodity space and the intersection of these, especially with people speculating on AI, which is both hardware and software coming together. And so massive amounts of opportunities for these trading platforms to now create products that users want to trade to the point they're going to take their money from Robin Hood from all their traditional brokerages and start to

trade on their on chain because they see a really cool index that their friend posted that they want to partake in. So huge I mean really like we if truly trillions of dollars are coming on chain everyone is has the opportunity to win and take a part of that pie. >> Yeah. Somebody uh asked about uh where does a sit after the SEC article. I think it's you know obviously they're in an interesting spot but it's it's you know these lending platforms Carl will facilitate a lot of you know this next order of activity right let's say you launch a Pelosi index and then you want to borrow against it you know some there's a morpho vault out there for you that you can spin up you know find a curator spin it up go right and so there's like there's a lot of these defi

you know there's the maples the aves the morphos and then you've got like all you know all the stable coin issuers sky circle tether then like the dexes, the unis swaps, aeroderms, hyperlquids, etc. And so again, Carl like a theme that we've been you know harping on here is we got to break the methodology of thinking that is we are building all of these primitives on chain especially DeFi for crypto assets only. We are so beyond that now and it's going to be this influx of all different types of assets coming on chain and that the valuation methodologies for these you know the most successful DeFi companies that onboard all these different types of assets their TVLs will absolutely

balloon and their institutional allocation will balloon as well in terms of their interest and then should reflect in price. A lot of these DeFi names have been depressed since 2020, 2021. I mean, these things have been really, really beaten down. And so, there's probably opportunity there as well. >> Yeah, I agree. And one of the things I talk about in the piece is uh we we want to bring trillions on chain, but like what are once it's on chain, who's going to be buying this? Like, are institutions going to be using a a MetaMask wallet? Like, no. Like, we need institutional grade UIs, institutional grade security around the DeFi platforms. And in so many cases even this year alone we've seen really big uh I think failures in in opsec right so we

need a new grade of you know transparency and certifications just like traditional companies have sock one and sock two they need to meet we need to figure out what is the onchain equivalent of that and start to hold uh different protocols accountable and actually these protocols I think want to step up and show that they're ready for the institutions to come on chchain so we need that security we need the institutional grade UIs that have some of the features that institutions might need and might want and certain protections in place because you know, hey, by the way, if you were to go trade in a really low liquidity pool, you might have a lot of slippage, but obviously with institutions, they're smart, but the way things are communicated and work in crypto is different. So, we need to create that abstraction layer and that safe haven

for once we bring the assets onchain for the institutions to actually interact with DeFi and start to get the benefits of these different onchain protocols. Yeah, you mentioned liquidation in insurance and then one clip oneclick looping and then potentially privacy as well. >> Yeah, exactly. These are all these are all big things that need to happen. I mean, I've talked to whales that limit their trading on Hyperlquid and just do it on Binance not because Hyperlid isn't a terrific product. It's because they know that as soon as start to move tens of millions of dollars, they actually move the market just by signaling the intent itself. And with the speed at which a lot of these um high frequency trading platforms are running, uh even settling something in half a second or a

second, you're actually going to lose advantage versus if you're using a traditional platform that had better amounts of privacy and shielding. >> And then last thing here you have is a regulatory reform and onchain KYC. Just curious generally how you're thinking about this, right? like what is the what would be the implementation process or the evolution of going from where we are on chain to something that you you know would be more regulatory compliant. >> Yeah. The absolute look I think if we want to trade some of these assets we're going to have to KYC, right? And I think that's okay. I think there's certain classes of assets that regulated are going to say you need to know who's

buying this. You need to make sure it's not people in like uh you know blacklisted jurisdictions. And so the question is if that's the future, how do we make this as seamless as possible? Right now almost all of DeFi is operating under regulatory exemptions which really hurts the American people. So I think we need to show credible solutions around simple onchain KYC even if the credentials aren't stored on chain. The ability to show this is what I'm qualified to participate in on chain. um such that I could just go ahead and interact with these different protocols because the issue is if I go KYC with Black Rockck and I go KYC with JP Morgan, realistically they are not going to share that information back and forth. As much as I'd love them to, most likely they're not, at least for the not

for the near term. But if a wallet or some other company or platform had all my information and could immediately share that when I give permission to that counterparty, it at least might reduce the amount of times I'm having to take a picture with my driver's license and wave my hand over my face to show that I'm real person. Right? So there's ways that we can move the industry forward even if we're not ready yet for that golden, you know, passport that allows you to trade any single asset um unilaterally. >> Builders, you heard it here first, right, Rob? Sixman Ventures is going to be investing in some onchain KYC products. I'll tell you that.

>> Yes, we're ready. >> Yeah, let that let that bling happen. [laughter] >> Rob, close us out here. I'm I I >> think this is fantastic. I mean, it feels like all of the things that we've been talking on this show about, you know, h have started to come to fruition and have started to converge. this neo finance thesis, the tokenization super cycle, you're talking about privacy, you're talking about KYC, you know, on one hand, you know, the the inner, you know, crypto anarchist cipher punk libertarian inside me is is resisting, you know, some of this KYC and and and things but >> just buy Zcash, man.

>> You know, the Zcash overlords can uh you know, can give us some solstice. But on the other hand, you know, this is better technology. This is better for the entire economy. And so, you know, the pragmatist, I think, is very very happy. Um, Carl, maybe you can just help us harmonize between these two the the two the two wolves inside of us. Yeah. Uh, you know, what as we close out here, >> I mean, the fact that you're running a crypto podcast and I'm working for a crypto venture firm show that we are not representative of the average person, right? And so, when we think about market sizes, we saw, I think a couple years ago, all of these, you know, decentralized stable coin plays and we invested in none of them. Why? Because at the end of the day, the average person who's trying to take care of

their family and trying to earn a living and is and go on vacation is not going to optimize for a decentralized coin, right? At the end of the day, the US financial system is the greatest financial system in the world. People want to be able to operate within that. They want the trust and safety that does come from the regulated uh authorities that and uh you structures that we have today. And so, a lot of this is going to be regulated and I think that's okay. there's always going to be a place for cipher punks and other decentralized protocols, even the likes of um Hyperlquid and others that operate outside of the US uh but nonetheless have done incredibly well and provide great price discovery and other features. So, I think it's okay that these systems exist together. In fact,

we I think if you're running strategies, you might want to be able to take ownership of of an underlying equity while being able to short a perpetual on a cryptonnative platform for the other side of a trade. And so these things are going to work together. It's not like you and I are going to operate in one system only and only native issuance and not anything else. No, I think it's going to blend together and the best traders and uh users are going to be able to again bring these pieces together. the best wallets are going to bring these pieces together and it's going to be a really uniform experience for most people. It's just going to take time to get there.

>> Yeah, this is what mass adoption looks like. Remember that term, mass adoption. >> Carl, thanks so much, man. Absolute pleasure. Um, I feel like we covered a lot of ground today and uh it feels like this space is just continuing to accelerate towards a tokenized future. Uh, it's a tokenization super cycle. We appreciate you spending uh spending some time and educating us uh on the show today. Appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me on. >> Yeah, thanks Carl. >> We'll see you next time. >> Man, continuously just reminded that if you are thinking about this market as solely for crypto assets, you are missing the largest trend in the market today. it. You know, there are DeFi

protocols out there that have been beaten down to shreds that will have an immaculate return from their all-time lows just due to the fact that they are going to be the home of some of the world's largest tokenized assets and tokenized allocators. Morpho, a Maple, Sky Pendle um, keep going, Aeradrome, Uniswap, >> Hyperliquid, Lighter, um, and then all the chains, Ethereum, Salana, etc. There's like there's several trades starting to be formed here, right? Like there's there's several investment thesises that you could make off the

back of this tokenization mania. Yeah, I I think that's right. Um, and I think there's quite a few categories. Some of them are going to benefit more than others. Um, we all, you know, I also have in the back of my mind, uh, Santi Santiago Santos's thesis that >> this is what adoption looks like. We will move the entire economy, you know, onchain, but asset prices aren't going to react. >> At least not right now. And I I I'm prepared for that possibility as well.

And so I think it's important to just understand the kind of the different paths here because ultimately, yes, I think these things do get tokenized. I think they do come on chain. They probably do end up on, you know, one of these major public permissionless L1s, but you implement KYC as sort of this, you know, we've talked to our friends at uh Newton, we've talked to our friends at uh Predicate, like there are KYC providers out there that can help enable some of these things. Um, >> but this is still it's still early. It's still happening. It feels like there's a lot of bullishness brewing um as far as how asset prices will ultimately reflect. We still got a lot of work to do on that front as well. Like we need to dissolve these foundations like we

need to have value acrruel mechanisms coming back to reality. Um and and I feel like we're headed in the right direction but all of these things need to take place in order for asset prices to accurately reflect uh the adoption that's taking place. >> Yeah. Why don't we actually I think our next uh tweet here is really representative of that. Um let's let's go ahead and flip that over because we have a a friend of the show. Um uh well we had narrow but this is good texture. This guy I mean we don't got to spend too much time on this Rob but I mean dude >> does that not look the same? Can we get some money on this man? Can we get some bling bling man? Good Texture compares Zcash to Bitcoin's 2013 bull cycle,

saying that it allegedly mirrors Bitcoin's early parabolic structure. Ladies and gentlemen, are you prepared for a four figure Zcash? Are you bareold on the sidelines? >> Um, I'm glad that you're on the train, Andy. It feels like the right time to tell the people, >> the people about my full porting into hype and Zcash after taking a massive loss on uranium. Yeah, guys, don't try to trade commodities. It is just not worth it, man. It is so slow and boring. And there's no conviction. There's no like we're gonna take over Wall Street or we're gonna freaking tell Uncle Sam one of these and shield all my Zcash.

There's none of that. It's just like, yeah, we're running low on energy, so we need to buy copper and uranium, man. Who gives a man? God. God. Well, we're we're [snorts] sorry to hear that. Uh thanks thanks for playing. Uh G G G G G G G G G G G G G G G G G G G G G's on the Euro >> hype per Zcash near floor it. A little bit of Bitcoin, a little bit of Bitcoin. Floor it. Tiki just put out a video about it. He's all in on that as well. >> Look, it feels like these two trades are like two consensus, Rob. Like all of crypto Twitter's talking about Zcash and hype. Look, I don't want to get too bowled up on the Hopian, but do do those not look the same? [laughter]

>> I uh I leave the technical analysis to you. I I try not to get too involved in the TA. I uh look, I you know, your uranium position, I I liked it because it felt thesis driven. It felt fundamental driven, but obviously a I mean, more than half the battle is timing. >> Yeah. And just entry, man. >> Entry. >> Yeah. Uh, old trader Salsa Tequila says, >> I mean, he's kind of washed, but you know, we'll see what I I think he's been buying Bitcoin since the lows. He also thinks the bottom's in. Um, he says he says, >> "I just want to get a really good entry and get lucky with my exits."

>> Yeah. >> And I think I think I didn't do either. I did not get a good entry and I did not get lucky with my exit. Now I'm getting clowned on by [laughter] all the sound effects today. >> Yeah, back, baby. Let's go. We got the whole team in the office. Let's get it, man. >> Strike is over. We're here. Yeah. No. >> 15% of the team in the office. >> If you want to believe in the TA, go for it. I believe in the thesis. I think Zcash, privacy, quantum resistance, all of this is uh is ultimately brewing. People want uh to take control of their lives and their money in a world ruled by our AI overlords. Zcash helps them do that.

>> Yep. All right, let's move on to the next piece here. >> And the chart looks great. And also it's just literally it's literally the thesis is the core of what why even crypto started part of it at least which is like hide your money. >> Um [laughter] >> back to sports. >> Back to sports. >> Yo, I saw this tweet that was like you don't you don't realize it's a or what's the there's like a Phantom and then the Chrysler or something >> like a Rolls-Royce?

No, it's like uh you don't realize that there's a a Chrysler 300 looks like a Phantom until a Phantom pull up. All right. And that's that is what's going on here. We got the AP Wemb should have been MVP and we got the Swatch AP chat. Uh the guy the guys had a battle last night. >> Double overtime >> in a in a postgame interview. Uh WBY was like, you know, some some reporter asked if it was personal. He was like, you know, is it is it personal that you know, you and Chad? He's like, yeah, [laughter] personal. I was like, wow, let's go, man.

>> They've Chess said they've never said a full sentence to each other. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Um guys, I think that almost wraps us up here. We've covered all of the news. We've covered the U the SEC. We've covered sports. We've covered it all. You are watching the rollup. We are live from the tokenization tower. I see a bunch of you guys are on YouTube. Throw us a like. Throw us a sub. Uh we are answering your questions, asking your questions day in and day out. Uh we are live tomorrow again 12:30 p.m. Eastern time. It's Andy. It's Rob. We're out of here.

>> Tokenize the world. [music] >> [music] [music]