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timeline. Feels good to be back. >> [music] >> I think The Rollup is one of the most premier media brands in crypto, and Andy and Robbie are great experts at everything they talk about, and [music] it's my favorite podcast. >> I add it to my library as we speak. >> Potentially multi-chain deployments. >> We are at Devconnect day [music] one here at the guest speaker from Base. >> [music] [music] [music]

[music] [music] [music] [music] >> JP Morgan, BlackRock, DTCC, Fidelity.

The entire thing was just institutions. It's just It's next level. This industry is going to the next level and guys, I don't know what else to say. I'm bullish. >> HE SAID IT. HE FINALLY said it. >> I'm so bullish. >> And he's bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. >> [music] [music]

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>> The Rollup is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> We're going. >> Rollup is my favorite. >> From all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry, come together for the Rollup. >> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]

>> Survive. >> Do mouth. Institutions aren't coming, they're simply [music] here. >> It's the global major crypto, guys. >> Get right. Let's go. >> [music] >> Welcome to the nest. See you on the show. >> This all that all that ticket. >> Badabing, badaboom. >> Yo. >> Mr. Ducker, good to see you. >> Hello, Rob. Hello, happy 24th of July.

Happy Friday from the tokenization tower, where the financial capital of the world, the nest, the tokenization tower by Plume. >> Sensational. >> Sensational. Rob, how we doing? >> Plume. >> I mean, market's choppy, but you know what? Every time I'm like, oh, maybe we are taking another leg lower, I'm like, nah. We're not. I'm bullish. I think we're good. >> Okay. >> I think we're good. I I we're going to chop. I think we're going to if you try to trade this, you're going to get chopped up. And I think you just I think you just build a position, have fun, take it easy, enjoy the ride, tink a little bit, duke a little bit.

You'll be just fine. >> From the top of the Empire State Building reaching out to me watching in South Alabama at the Gulf of America. Let's go. Great stuff always friends. Shout out to our friend Trump for renaming the Gulf of Mexico to Gulf of America. That deserves an American manufactured zin in the lip. >> [snorts] >> Roll up cures crypto depression. Yes, it does. Good morning Greg. Good to have you guys today. >> close to the Gulf. Shout out to our friends here on the Gulf of America. >> There you go. Guys, we got a good show today. I mean AI stuff, crypto stuff, um markets chatter, um position updates, portfolio updates, uh plans for next week, thunder stuff. So, as always welcome welcome back to the show. Marcus Weathers live from the greatest city on Earth in one of the

most iconic buildings in the world. Uh MXC CEE Oh, joins the show. Uh That person is probably very wealthy. Um orange Bitcoin director of strategy and research calling in as well talking sailor, talking the debt trade, talking more. As always our topics are powered by our friends at Treasure. Visit treasure.io use code roll up 10 to get yourself a hardware wallet. Let's get into the weather, the markets, and more. Before we do, let me tell you about Frax, our stablecoin partner of the show. Open stable borderless. Visit frax.com to learn more about the future digital money. Today day 85°, 80°.

No rain, beautiful day. You got the Empire State Building right in the middle there. You guys can see that. This way. Um and so, yeah. Uh beautiful day out here. Uh the boys are going to Soho House pool after this. Um full team trip. This is where you get the roll up. You get pool team trips. Um and Rob pays for half. So, thank you Alex. Thank you Iton for all the hard work. >> Before the stream today, Andy said we're going to Soho House with the team, don't check the AMEX statement.

Don't check the AMEX statement >> It's not like that. >> to Soho House. >> A specific A specific team member of ours likes to really hit hard, so try to keep him keep him in check. LeBron to Philly is like Vitalik interning at Ripple. Wow. >> [laughter] >> That is an early frontrunner for comment of the week. >> Wow, Edward, welcome back to the show, man. Always great to have you. All right, guys, let's keep it rolling into the markets. Before we do, let me say about Denari building infrastructure for tokenized US equities and bringing real-world stocks on chain.

To explore on-chain access to public markets, visit denari.com. Rob, what's going on out there today? >> Oh. There we go. There's the markets. >> Boom. Red. >> [snorts] >> I think it's just chop, man. I think it's just chop. >> I really think that uh we're I I actually think that Trump is going to like wait for the market to close today and then come out with something that is peace-inducing. >> You think? To like bring oil back up cuz what is oil at? Oil's at 99 uh Brent and WTI at 91. It's pulling back a bit today. QQQ, spy, etc. down a little bit, but not really much, honestly. I mean the S&P is green.

>> Yeah. >> So. >> But I think I think we're going to get something after the market closes. Um I think this is where things start to uncorrelate. We talked a little bit about this and how Bitcoin is starting to uncorrelate and track more like an inflation hedge and benefit from all the attention on the national debt. Uh altcoin complex trading a little bit more like Nasdaq, but I think we're going to get just a general decorrelation um from macro and from the equities market. And I think weekends are going to be better than weekdays for the foreseeable future as we uncorrelated from the equities trade.

>> Yeah. Um our guy Global Flows has been getting toasted on X. So he just put out like a full explanation about what what his gamma squeeze thesis was and things. People are just in his comments just like torching him. Just like saying that he does all this for his paid subscribers. That everyone's wrecked on per. I'm wrecked on per. And um >> Yeah, I mean the gamma squeeze was a it was a tough tough sell. And um >> We'll cover it. We'll cover it.

>> Yeah. Trump likes to drop bombs on Fridays. LOL. Maybe today we get a market bomb. We could start pumping this weekend. Let's go. Yeah, I think he likes to drop bombs on Fridays after the stock market's been blasting up the whole week. But now the stock market hasn't really been ripping. >> Right. >> down and so I think it's actually going to we're going to get a reversal here after the close. >> Yeah. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see what happens. Um yeah guys, I mean the market is trading one one equation today you could say. Higher oil plus higher yields equals lower risk appetite. Let's get into the news and more. But first let me tell you about Near RAI partner of the show. [screaming] near.com one account no borders your financial life on chain. Visit near.com

to learn more. Boom. In my opinion this is one of the best tweets I've seen on the app. >> It's one of the best tweets >> tweets I've seen on this app. Nothing lasts forever while the market is away from even remotely pricing this scenario in it's here all the same. This is part of the hyper scalar thesis drawdown that we're expecting. Um and the quote this is a quote tweet on a really good tweet that talked about how we're repricing uh the hyper scalers from technology stocks to um main essentially manufacturing companies which have less far less lower margins and far higher capital expenditures. And that's what we're seeing in this AI

build-out. They're building out data centers, they're building out energy power plants, um and they're manufacturing tokens. And our good friend Sisyphus put this out there. Mega caps used to demand They used to demand high earnings multiples because they were asset-light businesses that had moats that they didn't have to spend on. That has changed in the last 2 years as these companies need to put hundreds of billions into building data centers to keep a competitive edge. Capital expenditures way up. Assets um are super heavy now. Margins are compressed and therefore multiples will be compressed. And so these things are super sticky, super durable. They're going to continue to print, but the multiples will be compressed. I could

even see these becoming dividend stocks rather than growth. >> Really? Really? Wow. >> So. >> So, the idea here is that the idea is that um basically these companies have very little growth expectations as a result of them no longer being in So, these companies have very little growth expectations because they are now flipping to choose to spend more money on capex than they're

earning. And so the for the first time ever Google is has spent more money than that than they're making. >> Yeah. And so obviously they're doing this to maintain positioning in the AI space. >> Wow. >> Um if they can still be seen as the AI uh you know, leader, manufacturer, the one of you know, one of the the primary producers of tokens, then they're going to be able to sustain their revenues, but it takes, you know, significant build out upfront cost in order to solidify that positioning. >> And so they're betting that like basically there's just going to be this continuous demand for compute for um basically from an asset light high margin mega cap is in my notes to businesses towards capital intensive AI

infra models. The data center spending is changing in economics. Um >> Yeah. >> And so >> quarterly CapEx was 45 it reached 45 billion. Um which just shows the scale of investment that they need to put into AI. Obviously they're doing this to solidify their positioning. Um they think that they're going to make this money back and more and I think they will if they can solidify market share in the AI space. Um >> So like the thesis around Google goes from like a like what is that stock doing right now? I mean obviously it's gone you know, nuts, but it's it's kind of having its run.

>> It's having quite a red week. It's I mean it's down I mean it's down 10% this week nearly. >> Yeah, even after even after beating their earnings expectations. >> So what's the thesis here? Is Google at $320 no longer like is this the end of the Mag 7 dominant? Is this like causing the rotation out of the Mag 7 cuz they've gone absolutely stupidly parabolic for the last I mean 10 years. So is this like is is then AI causing the rotation out of the Mag 7 into more specific growth companies that are going to become like the next era of the Mag 7? Is that the thesis?

>> Well, we had a conversation yesterday with Leo Fan about, you know, what the supply chain looks like. I think the rotation does just move further down the supply chain. So and it started, remember it started with these mega hyper scalers raising billions of dollars in corporate bond sales. So they raised the money for cuz they knew that they were going to have to spend on building out this infrastructure. They sold bonds, raised money, built it out. Uh now, where do they you know, they spent all this money. Now, it's in the hands of you know, the the providers of the infrastructure. That's the memory and the semiconductor manufacturers.

>> Yes. >> Um now the money has flowed to them. Remember, they are now they now have to meet demand, right? So, memory semi conductors have massive orders that they are going to have to fulfill and they're going to need to buy and spend money on buying the raw materials that it that are required to build out memory and semi conductors. Um at a certain point, you do get into commodities. I don't know if we're there yet. We might have one or two intermediate steps in the supply chain before we get into like, okay, we just need raw silicon, uranium for the energy, silicon for the semi conductors.

Eventually, you just get into pure materials. >> Yeah, interesting. >> We may end up with like another intermediary of market segment. Um >> In between that phase. >> In between now and that phase. >> Google has a lot of dead weight. Elon fired half of Twitter. You can't pay D E I uh hires 140k a year to having meeting after meeting, take 90-minute lunches, all their unproductive BS, and expect to turn a profit. True story. I mean, these companies are probably rapidly rapidly uh using AI and rapidly trying to um you know, prevent uh that, but I do hear you on bloat of these companies.

>> I think there's two two more things just to point out about this chart and Google and hyper scalers in general, which is first question is how long do they run a negative cash flow business? Um they can't run it that long. Uh they do have significant money, but obviously these guys are going to to turn back profitable as soon as possible. >> Yeah. >> I I don't think they're going to run too many of these quarters. I think maybe one or two, uh, but they're going to build these things out. I think they already made the largest investment. We'll see how capital expenditure progresses. The the The other question to ask is once they turn positive again, which I think they will, I my thinking is that it will never reach the level of profitability that they were in

like 2019 like the era of low interest rates. I think they're going to return to like what, you know, 5 to 10 billion in free cash flow, which I think would still be a pretty healthy margin, but we're never going to reach the profitability or the growth of like 2020 to 2025. So, I think from that perspective, yeah, the era of the mag 7 is coming to a close. >> All righty, guys. Let's move on. Um, mag 7 trade is shifting from high margin growth to capital intensive infra. I am not going to be positioned for that roll out. I'm going to be I'm going to be positioned for this roll out.

Moochie says crypto's like Uber, better technology than what we have. It's the Uber problem. Governments hated Uber, mayors hated Uber, tax commissions hated Uber. Who liked Uber? The people. Let's play this video. It's my guy right here. Let's go Moochie. Freaking Moochie. Look at him. Guy's a Chad. He's got the American flag on his on his suit. Is it Is that what that is? >> Guy's a dooker. >> Definitely definitely a dooker enjoyer. >> Big All right, let's go ahead and go >> that. >> Now, I also believe that the stuff is coming whether people like it or not because it's better technology than what we have. This is the Uber problem. Okay, let's go back to Uber. Government hated Uber, mayors hated Uber, taxi

commissions hated Uber. Who liked Uber? The people. And so, the people basically burned them off and and and won out. You don't have enough people in crypto right now, uh, to fight back the government resistance. >> You don't have enough people to fight back. Uh we have Elizabeth Warren literally trying to shoot us down. Everyday users adopt better products when they offer clear benefits, even if the legacy systems push back. In this case, the legacy system happens to be the government. Um and they are pushing back against clarity for obvious reasons. Um interesting analogy. It's kind of like Yeah, it's like I mean, it's kind of like framing um It's kind of like the whole blockchain, not Bitcoin thing again,

where none of this is about speculation, but it's all about the products. And I find that interesting. I don't know. I just think that Muchie's never going to leave the industry and that he's acquiring lot lots of Bitcoin. He owns lots of Bitcoin and other cryptos, and he's telling all of his rich friends that this is a good time to buy, and so I mean, if he wants to go on CNBC and tell us that crypto's like Uber, I'm all for it. Let's go. Let's do it. >> I uh saw a really cool chart, which was that the holding of Bitcoin by individuals over I think this was last year, maybe the last quarter.

Uh holding of of Bitcoin by individuals decreased, I think 11%. >> Mhm. >> Holding of Bitcoin by institutions and businesses increased by about the same margin, maybe even more. So, what this is saying is that, unfortunately, individuals are getting shaken out, but institutions are buying and they're holding more. >> was always going to be the case, wasn't it? >> Yeah, I mean, that's typically what happens. And so, you know, that I think is That just signals that like these are stickier holders. These are people that can withstand bear markets. And every time, you know, they continue to uh you know, shake individuals out, Bitcoin gets in the hands of in the hands of institutions, which means it's

less selling, but it's also like, you know, we want Bitcoin in the hands of the people. >> I agree. We want Bitcoin in the hands of the people. Put it in the damn hands of the people. You know when the hands of the people get the coins rub? When it's pumping. That's when the hands of the people like to buy their Bitcoins. All right, guys, let's keep it rolling into our next Haseeb's. Before we do, let me tell you about 1 inch, your secure, efficient platform for tokenized RWAs. Whatever asset that you're swapping, swap it at 1inch.com. 13 chains without bridging. 1 inch has great liquidity and execution. Try it out today at 1inch.com.

All righty. >> Clarity likely fails, but Lighter will get CFTC license Yatzy. I think that's true. >> Edward, of course, our local Lighter bull. >> Oh, nice. >> Yeah, I think Lighter's in a great regulatory position. It almost feels like they're the homegrown perps platform. >> Are you guys following CXM C on the pre-IPO market? What do they do? They're a Chinese memory company. Um they're one of the largest like they're kind of like the Chinese DRAM. >> Yeah. >> Um and let's see what they're trading at. They're trading at $6 still under >> DRAM is exactly what we're talking about with these hyperscalers. DRAM is downstream of AI.

>> Correct. And apparently, I was watching the um 1000X pod and um Avi, not Jona, Avi guy, he was like, "Yo, I'm buying a lot of memory stocks right now. They're down uh they're I mean DRAM is down 35% off the highs in a matter of a month. And I think these things are not done. If the AI bubble is over, then these things are done, but I do not think it's done. I'm buying these. I think that these have another two or three X in them. It was a very compelling um take and I almost went and bought DRAM immediately after I listened to, but I didn't yet. And that's down a little bit today still.

Um >> And I think I think it goes to show like these AI, you know, think think the AI buildout is continuing to happen. Um but like we just talked about with the Magnificent 7, the hyperscalers are not the ones to buy. It's like what are the hyperscalers building? What where are they spending their money? >> Need clarity on the past ASAP. Google also has major exposure to SpaceX and Anthropic. Yeah, SpaceX getting smoked. Anthropic will should be a nice win for them though. All right, so what is the seed saying here? The dominant AI is the superhuman AI hackers are going to be a security nightmare. I now believe the opposite.

Everything gets more secure after superhuman LLM hackers because the commoditization of intelligence favors defenders over attackers. Quite the quite the hook there on the tweet Haseeb. But why? So, his core point is that AI-driven attacks become more correlated and redundant. Effectively reducing the range of unexpected tactics that defenders face. They use the same models. They use the same strategy. They They're They're running the same search. Burning redundant compute.

Trying the same attack idea. If many of these attackers use similar AI-generated models, defenders can patch the strongest attack paths instead of preparing for every unique human approach. Which is an interesting kind of take. And this And the supporting data that Haseeb shows down below shows that 2026 annualized hack volume at 1.89 billion, which is below the uh 1. uh If you scroll all the way down, I think you should see another chart maybe. Yeah, so you can see that um monthly hacks by volume in 2026 is actually um uh basically on track or less than 2025.

>> [snorts] >> It's within historical norms even though we have all of these advanced models. So, I think the take that Haseeb's making is that large protocols probably have a better chance than the smaller protocols to secure themselves. But Rob, what's your take? What like is AI better for defenders or attackers? >> Hmm. I mean, when some of these tools were first coming out, my take was that the attackers were more diligent in using these tools at first for malicious purposes.

>> Mhm. >> I think as time goes on, uh, companies are going to incorporate these more. They're also going to be wary of others using these these tools >> Definitely. >> for the wrong reasons. Um, I would like to see more like Zcash is the absolute perfect, uh, example of what to do in this case. Uh, Zcash was able to get their hands on Mythos from Anthropic and use Mythos for uh protecting um, for protecting the, uh, the protocol. >> Yeah.

>> And using it to stress test things and essentially defend against things before things got, uh, you know, leaked out there and and hacked. Um, and so that's, you know, how we resulted in finding the potential exploit and now we're going to patch it in a matter of days. I think all of that is extremely beneficial. We see what happens, you know, in these cases when, you know, some of these things become public, but, you know, the that is the right thing to do. Um, it's just a matter of diligence. You know, we know that and this is I mean, we know that the North Korean hacking Lazarus Group is like extremely competent and extremely diligent in using these tools. Um, they move fast, they move quickly. Unfortunately, they also have these tools at their disposal.

I think it's just up to the companies that are choosing to move just as fast, just as quickly and are just as competent as the North Koreans. Um, it's just offense and defense. >> Just ask him if they like Kim Jong. All righty. Well, that's the AI hacking. Let's get into some more kind of specific market stuff here with M0 clip here about, um kind of what's happening in the stablecoin world world. Uh Luca, the CEO, describes the stablecoin ecosystem as a thickening financial stack moving moving beyond just issuance, which I think is probably correct um as far as like where this whole space is going.

Um stablecoin power cards, neobanks, RWAs. Stablecoins are really a redesign of how the how money moves. Let's just hear this quick excerpt uh quick little education tidbit here. >> A user revenue and then he's doing predictions >> and stablecoins. >> doing Robinhood and he's uh doing predictions on on Polymarket. And he's trading perps on Hyperliquid. And all this stuff is powered digitally. They will never leave the digital world. And I think this stack is getting thicker every year. Like the last year uh 2 years ago, we saw the emergence of stablecoin powered credit cards. So, like you have stablecoins, you can you have a wallet, you can swipe a credit card, and the credit card gets settled on the card networks

uh every day, and you don't need to go back to fiat. Now, like you have three, four of the largest uh fastest-growing fintechs are neobanks built on stablecoin powered credit cards like Reed & Pay, Dollar App, CAST, uh EtherFi, and a few others. They didn't exist They're multi-billion dollar companies now. They didn't exist 18 months ago. And uh now you start seeing uh tokenization of traditional assets that you will settle with digital money. So, you will you will see like the the the the digital stack is getting thicker every year, and the fiat rails will still exist.

Uh you'll see local currency denominated stablecoins. So, it's just a it's just a it's just a process. Like the connection in between the two worlds will always be very, very important, but I think the digital the digital native world will expand, especially in the year of agentic agenting finance where obviously digital money is made for that. >> I mean, I agree. It's kind of like the super app thesis. It's like everyone is trying to build the super app where you have the perps, the prediction markets, the stable coins, the earn, the spend, the save, the yield product, the trading, the the NFTs, the social, like it's just like it's basically Robinhood.

It's basically these forums and >> I mean, yeah, we it used to just be stable coins. And now you can spend your stable coins wherever. Now you can lend them. Now you can borrow against different assets on chain and these kind of, you know, Coinbase is front end, etc. And so Yeah, I mean, I think he's right. I think I think we have a stack emerging. The question is the question is you have, I don't know, he named five teams they're building neo banks. You have call it like 50 teams aiming for the same thing.

If you think it's just about power law and how markets tend to play out, there's going to be like three to five of those teams that win. What happens to those other 40 to 60 to 100 teams that are trying to build stable coin cards? Like, how do you pivot from losing the stable coin card game to something else that you've but that you've already spent so much time building that tech stack? What is like, what do you pivot to? Like, what do you what do you re realign on? That's the question. >> I don't I mean, sometimes you can't pivot. I think I mean, there's so many blockchains that built out like significant node infrastructure, like actual chains.

>> What are what what's left of that? You know, the alternative L1s, some of these things. Like, there's a lot of infrastructure there. Uh they could get acquired for pennies on the dollar. Um you know, you could see if there's some distribution modes or tech mode. Um these things get scooped up and wrapped into an existing neo bank that has, you know, product market fit and, you know, good business economics. >> Yep. >> Um so, I'd expect a lot of that. I think M&A And and I think this is just a multi-generational trend.

>> Yeah. >> With AI and tools and internet and access to information, access to capital, entrepreneurship is becoming extremely low barrier to entry. So, I think we're getting so many more companies than we otherwise would have. And these are interconnected with, you know, everyone has awareness into these companies exist. It's not like just, you know, local mom and pops that have, you know, a shop front. And so, you know, large companies can buy up tons of these smaller companies because they know that they're there and these smaller companies, there's so much more of them. So, there's so much more supply. So, I expect M&A to be like just up and to the right for the foreseeable future.

And we're going to see a lot of these companies get acquired, but not get acquired for like the things that they would hope, like big old exits, but, you know, tech and distribution get acquired. >> Yep. I mean, we'll see, man. I mean, I think now they have so many of these like applications that like in AI, you have all these, you know, all they want is to is to is distribution for their products. Same thing with crypto. I think they're going to start to see like, all right, we have all these tools. What teams will pay for is distribution. Like they'll pay for the front ends. Like lighter paid Robinhood a ton. Like, you know, they paid Telegram. Like Chainlink will pay Robinhood for their integration. Layer

Zero, same thing. Like, you pay to get your tech expanded, you know. All these teams doing a DTCC, Canton, Stellar, Chainlink, who else? They pay the DTCC to get a part of to be a part of that pilot program. So, all they're doing is just paying for distribution consistently. I think they are right there. >> Like, frontier models are just in a position of win. They're like the models. >> What's that? >> Yeah. I mean, go ahead. >> I mean, those are the front end for everything these days.

>> Um well, no. They're not like like yes, the Claude interface is valuable, and yes, the ChatGPT's interface is valuable, but what's going to happen, and what's already happening, is whatever app that you use, they're just going to have a LLM partner. And so, that's what the model's going to be. So, so you you're going to go You can go on Robinhood right now, and you can type in AI queries, and it it pulls from like a open router aggregator of models into the Robinhood app. So, it's not like Claude is going to win like mass distribution. Yes, Gemini has 950 million monthly actives on Gemini, the app. That's a lot of users, almost a billion users.

Right? That's a That's a lot. Like, how many people are there in the world? 8 billion? >> So, that's a lot of a lot of users, but you know how many of those users are using Gemini direct on their phone? Not as many. You know, I got Gemini right here in in my browser, top right on Chrome, ask Gemini, boom. Done. So, my take is that it's not really about like same way that's not about Hyperliquid or Lighter's front-ends getting a lot of traders. AI is not about going on chat.openai.com. It's about living your life, but using them without even knowing that you're using them. Cuz like, you're just using the AI on whatever tool that you're using, and they're just aggregating all the models.

>> So, right now, you know, on a normal platform Robinhood is probably a good example. Like, you go into Robinhood, and you can prompt their AI, and then it will pull use an aggregator of sorts. Maybe it's using Gemini, maybe it's using Claude. And when Robinhood does that query from an LLM, it's counting like the LLM is counting that, and it's user numbers. Is what you're saying. >> I mean, yeah. Yeah.

Cuz I mean, Gemini has 950 million people on gemini.com. >> Right. And there's a lot of people that are going directly to ChatGPT. >> No, I mean I do it all the time and so do you, but I'm just saying I feel like feel like anytime you use Google Maps, right? And you there's in there's an AI button now. >> In Google Maps? >> Yes. Anytime you use YouTube studio, like there's a buttons in YouTube studio that's like um you know AI insights. >> Right.

>> That's all Gemini. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> You know what I mean? So it's like yes, it's people going to the app on their phone, but it's like it's me clicking this button on our YouTube account and saying analytics, how did viewers find my content? Click. And boom, Gemini pops right up. Ask studio. >> Cuz I I mean also like on ChatGPT, there's a uh button that says finances. And I can literally click it and it says ChatGPT is not a licensed financial advisor.

>> Yeah. >> can use it to do all kinds of things. >> Yeah. >> Connect finances. And then I can use it and like connect it to different financial applications. >> Yeah. >> Right? And then conduct my finances from this account. So >> That's pretty dope. >> There's people that are going to use it that way, too. And it's I mean it's both. And so these guys have distribution, but they also have other distribution partners. >> Yeah, exactly. Already, um let's get into the next piece before we do let me tell you about LiFi building infrastructure for crushing swaps, bridging, and routing across the on-chain economy.

Visit li.fi for universal access to digital markets. And now. So, Centrifuge says asynchronous vaults, the finalization of ERC-8161, co-authored by their CE CEO CTO Centrifuge is now an official Ethereum standard. Pending requests can transfer to another address. It makes tokenized vaults more liquid and flexible across DeFi and RWA infrastructure. That is the point here, guys. You can now deposit your assets into a vault. And what you get is you get the ability to take your vault, which can be gold, tokenized Nvidia, Bitcoin, ether hype so you can have a multi-chain,

multi-asset class, multi asset vehicle vault, take that position, and then put it in DFI. That is insane. Like we are talking about taking a triple token asset that is an actively managed strategy by a professional curator, and then taking that alpha and putting it into DFI borrowing against it. >> Huge. Yeah, I'm excited. I think there's been a lot of discussion on vaults from a regulatory point of view and just from a sheer use case point of view at some point.

>> Yep. >> I think this is absolutely massive. I mean, it kind of just takes like liquidity pools and yield >> Yes, that's what I was thinking. I was thinking about LPs. >> it. >> Yes, I was thinking about LPs. >> the container that it was always meant to be in, and now we actually have an asset class. Like let's be real. Like Like these things are securities. Why are we Why are we Why are we trying to say that they're not? Like it depends. If you If >> [laughter] >> The These things I mean, we're talking about tokenized RWAs and tokenized funds like >> Yeah, these are securities. Yes, I agree.

>> They're securities. Like if you just put Bitcoin into a vault and you combine it with ETH and then you have like a Bitcoin ETH vault, right? Just for the sake of like, you know, combining two assets into one portfolio construction, it's not a security. But if you're going to use vaults for what they're really good for, you're going to put a century You're going to put a superstate QQQ Invesco managed money market fund with a Janus Henderson J AAA fund with a Franklin Templeton RWA with maybe some like really nice dividend equities in there and you're going to build yourself a like 12% annualized yield portfolio.

And then you're going to take that it's going to be a container. Maybe other people are going to like what I think we're going to see is you know a curator build that out. Right? And then the curator is going to end up earning money for building out that portfolio construction and managing it. A lot of these are going to be actively managed as well. >> Yep. >> And they can earn like a really good business model for creating those portfolios. So >> just like very interesting that you know right now to get like that sort of actively managed strategy you got to be like a quant or like have access to somebody who's like super smart but we're just democratizing the alpha bit.

>> We're democratizing the access. >> Then you're going to take the alpha that you're already getting in this fund that you would previously not be able to do. Theoretically right unless you're a god sender of a trader and then you're going to put it into a a lending market. >> Yeah. >> And then you're never going to have to sell it. >> And that's that's the part that's fundamentally new like all of the security stuff and packaging >> The packaging is new. >> The packaging you could do yourself. >> existing assets. There's no there's not a single asset in the world I don't believe and you know fact check me on this where you can put three different types of asset classes or four in one vehicle. Like you can't put a gold a commodity ETF into with a security in

with a bond and in with a money market all in one product and call it an actively managed product. That doesn't really exist other than like investing in a hedge fund which is like fully >> You could buy all of those things yourself is the point but it's super inefficient. You could combine as many products as you want to in your own way. you >> had if you wanted like passive 50 25% allocation across four different asset classes, you just go in your Schwab account and buy those four. >> The point is that now it's a lot more efficient and it's a lot more active. And the reason in which it, you know, it it is a lot more efficient is because now you can use this as collateral.

That's the real zero to one. And we haven't really seen that take off yet. I've heard a few different companies that are working on implementing this, but this is something that still feels really new is that I can build out this portfolio construction, can be actively managed, and I can use that vault as collateral because it's kind of just up into the right as long as these like money market funds, these things that are securities continue to be securities, they're not supposed to lose money. They go up into the right, use them as collateral. Previously, that was not possible because they were not able to get liquidated. Now, you have smart contracts and you have a security in an a security in a smart contract. And so,

this thing is basically just number go up. You can use it as collateral and in the case that you have some borrow position against this >> Mhm. >> that goes bottom up, you're going to you're going to be able to liquidate this thing. And now, you know, when these things first came online like Securitize advertised a uh a product that would allow you to exit some of these vehicles, but you had a pretty significant haircut. >> Yep. >> Now, there are companies that are coming in and buying distressed assets and the haircuts on these are almost like virtually nonexistent. So, you can actually like liquidate these for not that much less. And so, now you can use these as

collateral and you would get a rather favorable loan-to-value >> Yep. >> because you can actually liquid late these for a very, very slim haircut. >> Yep. >> So, that makes these a really, really attractive. >> Robbie's like a Robbie's over Robbie's like a finance expert these days. I don't know what happened to him. Let's keep it rolling. I think this is the next post. >> is born out of D5 farming. Like yield summer, D5 summer. >> Yeah, I know. Andre's all over it. >> It's actually doing something >> real. >> I don't know. Before you could get 340% APR, but that would be gone in 10 minutes. Now you can get like 10 to 15, and it's going to last for like

a long time. >> Yeah. Yeah, Andre's been commenting a lot on the regulatory side of things. >> But it does have weird I mean, maybe I'll go I'm kind of out over my skis when I bring this up, but it is I think just interesting to think about, you know, the five the 10-year, 30-year is like upwards of 5%. Someone posted a tweet, I think it was base 16 C that said something like, "Imagine the 30-year at 8%. What happens? Like what are >> Yeah. >> What's the trade?" And I think that's not an unlikely scenario, because you have these these efficiencies that are making like 8 to 10% yield on rather safe assets more attainable. So why am I going to go loan the money to the US government at 4 and

1/2? >> Yep. Yep. Yep. Anyway, let's move on. Don't buy bonds, guys. >> [clears throat] >> Yesterday, I canceled my Claude backs 20X sub two days before they launched Opus 5.0. There's nothing wrong with the model. It functions, it solves problems. The reason I canceled it is that after spending weeks talking to him, I just don't like Claude.

I'd strongly argue he's a loser. I see this through the lens of friendship. I was open to friendship, but I've never had a friend be so moralistic and obstructive in my life in context where it was completely irrelevant. Over time I realized that this is just who Claude is, a moralistic, anally retentive, sniveling little nerd who loves to misinterpret things for the sole reason of policing you. >> [snorts] >> So, Andy and I both saw this this morning and had a little conversation about um the benefit of human intelligence and authenticity intermingled with the intelligence, like the raw intelligence intelligence of an

LLM. And like these things have personalities. Like Grok is based. And Claude is a sniveling little >> Dude, Claude is kind of like that, man. It's always so like it's I don't know, man. Gemini is not as freaking Gemini is not as like >> Gemini? >> Yeah, like dude, whenever I talk to Opus about my positions in the market, it always makes me feel like a degenerate. >> Yeah, I could see that. I could see how Claude is like a lot more risk-averse and like >> a lot more judgmental and like personal and stuff.

>> oh, you said this last week and now you're back in the same train of thought. Like this isn't investing. This is this is biased hiddenness emotional protection. I'm like bro, what the dude? I didn't even say anything. Like I was just trying to chat, man. I feel you, dude. Fables Fables is Yeah, dude. This guy's right. Fables freaking makes Fable makes you Yeah, it hurts my feelings. >> Clarity is like a hot chick. If we score, great. If not, we just have to wait eight or so years until she isn't as hot. And [laughter] but no matter what score we will.

>> Dude, Greg, bro, you got to take it easy on the dukers, man. You're flipping it, aren't you, today? >> Greg Greg gets the duker comment of the day. >> Yeah, that's the jokester. That's the clown comment right there, buddy. >> we're Stay tuned to the end, guys. We're going to give out an award for comment of the day. >> Yeah. Um let's take a super quick pause, take a quick break, and we'll be right back with Daily Equity. Our next guest is going to do some screen share. We're going to run through some charts. Be right back. >> [music] [music] [music]

>> If you're serious about crypto, this is where you need to be. The Rollup will be broadcasting live from the Rare Evo Expo floor on day one. It's [music] July 29th and 30th at the Aria Resort and Casino in Las Vegas. General admission is free, so don't miss out. Hear from US Senator Bernie Moreno, Steven Gregory from Binance US, [music] Brian Quintenz from Kalshi, and Maggie Parsons from Lighter.

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[music] [music] [music] [music] >> Um, so Grok reinforces my revenue thesis and shuts me TF down when I try to wander. So Greg, you like tell Grok that you have your like revenue thesis for investing in the space and then when you try to ask Grok about like if you're going to buy a new coin or something or

a new stock, Grok will tell you like this is not aligned and shuts you down. That's pretty That's pretty dope. That's pretty funny. I like that. That's pretty funny. Um, so right, let's get into the equity. Jensen Huang puts out his first post of his Twitter career. Let's get into it. >> [music]

>> For my first post, I'm sharing a letter Nvidia signed on why open models matter. AI will transform every industry, power every company, and be built by every country. Open models strengthen safety and cybersecurity, accelerate innovation and diffusion, and enable sovereignty. Guys, this is obviously just targeted directly at the US government and why they should not be banning open models >> Yeah. >> despite the threat from the Chinese government, despite them being distilled from the frontier model companies. Jensen is calling for open weight models have a right to exist.

>> Yep. I love it. Uh the world needs both frontier closed models and frontier open models. And again, this kind of comes into the equities question about the investing of equity companies into um memory, into storage, and into all of these kind of facets of the AI stack. And why, you know, the Mag Seven maybe having a bit of a different uh a different story of investing than in the last 10 years. And I think this is all part of it, right? It's like if open models continue to grow, if closed models continue to grow, I mean, we're just going to see the continued prevalence of this technology, broadly speaking. And so, yeah, I mean, you just love to see it.

This is what you want to see. And I'm welcoming Jensen to X. I think it's great that he's here. And Nvidia is going to continue to power this AI revolution. And so, let's tokenize Nvidia. Let's bring it on, Shane. Let's get Let's get tokenized memory on chain with DRAM and a couple others. Shout out to our folks at at Denarii for powering that. Would love to get some DRAM and some memory stocks and some of the AI second and third-order AI bottleneck trades available into uh the Denarii tokenized equity mix.

That's our daily equity today, powered by our friends at Denarii. Uh Jensen Nvidia joins X, writes about open models and closed models. There's a full piece below. You guys can check it out on his X. Let's keep it rolling. So, it looks like Brazil is allowing tokenized cows to be used as loan collateral. A farmer in Palagonia >> Wow. >> was able to borrow $19,600 and use 10 dairy cows worth $23,500 as collateral for a loan. Each cow has a unique digital identity and AI-powered collar, allowing lenders to track its health and location Rob.

Wow. >> W's in the chat. >> Yeah, it's pretty nuts. Um pretty cool to see, to be honest with you. I like seeing new tokenized things, but it almost is a little reminiscent of like 2018 when they were using blockchains to track lettuce through the Walmart supply chain. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Yeah. >> Hm. >> This is great great insight there. Rob, great insight, truly. Giving me DentaCoin vibes. >> Yeah, slight DentaCoin vibes here. The fact that >> Look at that cow.

>> The fact that they are >> Brazil, viva Brazil. >> using this as collateral, I think is the real innovation here. Like that's the real >> On-chain, right? Like an illiquid cow that's going to die, has a term on it, it has a it has an interest rate, it has a risk modeling, and you can put it on-chain. >> Well, fact that it's going to die is a little sad, but um yeah, like >> cows dying is sad. >> I mean maybe not. >> I mean, you're a big farmer, guy. >> So, what are you going to do? You you're going to have a farm when you grow up, and you're never going to eat any of the animals that you that you raise?

>> I mean, brother, I'm not a vegetarian vegan over here. >> All right, so what are we getting sad about here, man? >> No, >> [laughter] >> um it's just irrelevant to the financial modeling of these tokenized cows. with you, dude. >> Didn't seem relevant, but um the fact that they are margin these cows I think is the relevant piece. I think the fact that they're collateralizing these that was that was what they weren't doing back in the Dentacoin days in 2018. >> Yeah, so how do you lose these? So you're the one who's giving an interest rate to these things.

You're like you mean you're you're pricing in everything from like a catastrophic um type you know cyclone to a uh famine to a disease to to everything, right? Like how do you like how do you lose it? Are you the person who's like I guess if you're the one who's lending the cows. >> No, you're not lending the cows. You're putting the cows up and you're saying, "Okay, you have these ca- I mean Are they lending the cows? They would have to take delivery. Like if this guy says I'm not going to pay you you're you're he's trying to get money, right?

He's trying to get money so that he can run his business. So you give him money. But the collateral is the cow and so if he defaults on his loan then you take custody of the cow. >> Yes. Y- yes. >> So how do I >> So you are still lending the cows. >> So I would have to take delivery of the cow in the case of a margin call? >> Yes. >> Well, who's if I'm in how are they going to get the cow from Brazil to Florida or New York? >> Sounds like you got a new farm in Patana.

You get the whole farm, buddy. >> Take me to Patana. >> You get the whole farm. All right, let's keep it let's keep it rolling here. Uh definitely get >> that heifer. >> Definitely Dentacoin vibes. >> That that cow loan will probably be depreciated based from the carbon tax because cows create global warming from the methane they release when they fart. >> Okay. Anyways, this is particularly interesting. White House called Tether favorite genius provision red line. So, basically there are some insights here about genius that Tether kind of like came in here and set genius up with Bo Hines in such a way that benefited them with this like multi-year compliance grace period.

And so, Trump insider supposedly shaped this first iteration of the genius act. Um Yeah. >> Um okay. I mean, Bo Hines uh you know, was pretty instrumental in making sure that the genius act went through. >> [snorts] >> Uh now Bo Hines is working at Tether uh building out Tether's US uh strategy. >> Yep. >> Um So, we kind of know this. I mean >> Well, that's what I mean, but that's the problem is that what's what's Tether is denying receiving any special treatment, but the thesis is that the insiders that had equity in this USAT Bo Hines, Trump's in family, and anyone involved

in Tether who was lobbying like Paolo. That's the reason why Paolo was so obviously prevalent there. Is that the thesis is that they strategically with insider interests had better ruling for an offshore company like Tether to benefit from genius or not to be, you know, directly screwed from it versus somebody like Circle. >> I mean you think there's not foreign companies that are lobbying in the US? >> I mean, I've realized with this freaking administration you just you just do whatever you want. Money buys anything. If you want to buy a cow that doesn't die, you just freaking put some money up. You'll never be sad again.

>> The funniest tweet relevant to this was uh more recently how Hester Peirce, you know, came out with this uh comment on on uh vaults being, you know, securities. And someone commented uh Hester Peirce going to work for Morfo after this. Which is the exact same thing. Bo Hines making comments, pushing the genius act through, and then going to work for I mean, this happens in every industry where there's, you know, people that work for the government, they make the laws, and then they go work in the private sector afterwards.

>> Yeah, somebody was telling me about this. Somebody raised money from a big VC firm, and their brother was the partner of that firm, and then the brother moved after they finished the deal to join that the firm that raised the capital. Similar Similar story. Um let's tokenize the farts, fork on baby, heart of rises. Um got to peep the cattle futures chart. Have not seen that one. >> It's going down, I think, which [snorts] is why people were saying that beef was going to go down. >> Got it. All right, guys. I think we have our next guest ready to go. Before we do, let's get into Bron real quick.

>> Yeah. Shout out Bron. Shout out Philly. >> Bron joins the um Sixers. I saw somebody say that Joel Embiid have the integrity of that of a brisket. >> Embiid's knees. >> Joel Embiid's knees have the integrity of a brisket. I thought it was funny. Um LeBron James signed with the Sixers 2 years, $4 million each year. Um >> It's the veteran minimum. >> It's the veteran minimum. >> Took a pay cut, going for a ship. >> How old is he? 43?

>> I don't know. >> I think so. So, they have a super team. Whether they win or not, I don't know. >> 41. >> I think I think Bron is unfortunately a little bit cursed at this point in his career. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> You know, brought a brought a ship to Cleveland, brought a ship to Miami, couldn't bring one to uh LA, but uh we'll see. We'll see. I don't know. >> know. I think he's cooked, but we'll see what happens. >> Philly's got a good squad now. Jaylen Brown, Joel Embiid, and Tyrese Maxey. >> Yes. Yes. Also, Rob, he did win in LA.

>> Oh, the bubble championship. You're right. >> Yeah. >> Forgot it. That was 2020. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody remembers it. >> Yeah. >> I don't know, it just looks really weird to see LeBron in a Sixers jersey. And I also find it funny that in this photo he still has hair. Cuz that's definitely not what he looks like right now. >> Embarrassing. >> for sure. >> I agree with you. He should have went to Miami. >> Yeah, Miami would have been dope. >> Yeah. That amount of crime that probably went on for betting where LeBron would go is probably huge. Yeah, I agree like the insider trading on where like from who knew him and who made the bets on prediction >> markets and stuff. Yeah, for sure.

>> For sure. All right, you guys. I believe we have our first guest today. Vugar Uzi is stocks, IPOs, and MEXC, the CEO at MEXC. Um it is a relatively long-standing crypto exchange in the space. Great to have um him up. Let's bring Vugar into the conversation today. It's a beautiful Friday in New York City. We're broadcasting from the Empire State Building. Got the door open in here. It's plenty It's plenty chilly. Vibes are up. Let's get him up here and let's get the show on the road. Get Vugar >> hearing from these centralized exchange folks talking about floats.

>> It's really >> Cuz these guys, you know, they have advantage point from the entire chain all the chains, all the assets, you know? They can see what are people trading? What are they interested in? Where's the attention? >> Where are the floats? >> Let's bring him up. >> about. >> Let's bring Vugar into the party. Get this show on the road. >> Guys, let us know if LeBron the goat. >> Is he or not? I don't know. >> He's got lots of >> With crypto.com though on the on the Sixers jersey, yeah, you you're right.

It is a it is a crypto crypto fanatic town. I also saw that Ledger was the sponsor of the Spurs this year. >> And Galaxy Digital just bought the naming rights to Texas A&M. >> Yes, that's interesting. All right, let's get Vugar up here and let's get this show on the road. Stocks, IPOs MEXC. Vugar, welcome to the show. Great to have you, man. >> Thank you very much for having me. It's very exciting to [snorts] be here. >> Beautiful, man. Love the outfit. Looks amazing. >> Love the suit. >> Yeah, man. Beautiful suit. >> blue as MEXC, yes.

>> Yes, sir. >> Beautiful. >> man. >> So, tell us how are things at MEXC? >> It's doing great. As you know, guys, I took over 100 days now, but it feels like yesterday and it feels also forever. Uh I believe it's a pretty long time for the crypto natives. I've been CEO as 100 for 100 days now and uh from the rebranding to repositioning and building new products, bringing stocks, and becoming a true trade everything platform. That's how I want to, you know, envision MEXC. It's been a beautiful journey and we have done so many great things in the last 100 days and I hope I can keep driving the growth further.

>> Yeah, man. What's the biggest kind of changes that you've made in the last 100 days? Culture-wise, team-wise, uh product-wise. What did you come in and do? What was your kind of >> Why did they bring you in? >> 90 days of Vugar. What did that look like? >> Uh when it comes to the product, I think the one of the biggest changes we made, I think the entire industry made was the real stocks. I'm extremely excited to actually bring the traditional finance into the crypto and we are kind of emerging two worlds together. And we have seen also more than $7 billion volume in uh futures trading for SpaceX pre-IPO and IPO, which was another game changer in industry. And I think that giving user access is what is actually

keeping me awake and also motivates me to wake up every morning. We serve proudly 14 million users. And when it comes to culture, MEXC is one of the unique places where change is about, you know, incremental change, 1% every day. And that's been a culture prior to me and makes it the one of the strongest teams in an industry with average tenure of 4.5 years. That is very very different compared to any other exchange. And with the experience I already bring with my since my tenure at Bitget where I had Bitget to grow from 10 million users to 120 million users and become one of the largest exchanges in an industry. I'm looking forward to replicate the same success in a bigger scale for MEXC

with all these 2,500 people across 40 nations that make a great team all together. I'm I'm very proud to be >> that is amazing. And so when when you look at the kind of growth of non-crypto assets, I mean a lot of us have been super bullish on kind of a lot of these perps platforms that have launched these hyper liquid lighter etc. And these have just really dominated. How do you think about the kind of spot versus perp markets as it pertains to tokenized assets? What's your focus? Is it both? How do you envision the MEXC user base actually responding to these new pairs?

>> First and foremost, I see two important kind of a direction when it comes to retail investor and how the trade happens. And for everyone else watching compared to other top 10 large exchanges in the world, 98% of the MEXC's users are real humans. It is a small retail investors who trade everyday. Therefore, whatever we build is for the retail. Ooh, and currently we see a huge interest to multi-asset investing, but also we see a lot of narrative-driven transactions that is happening. Therefore, whether a user's trading spot or futures or margin or even perps market, today we see that for the retail user it's about to understanding where the narrative is going and how to actually catch the opportunity. Uh

what's happening in the global politics? We see that one day suddenly we switch all from the gold and silver and commodities to oil and what's happening in the straight of Hormuz the other day, you know, prediction markets comes in play because the of the World Cup and hype is moving around and it is no more kind of limited with what's happening in the crypto world and that is exactly what we are building for. We are building for a platform that will be helping the users to find the right opportunity at the right time. It's all about finding the opportunity and seizing that opportunity on in no time.

And that is what we are building for. Definitely we are super strong in the futures market. We haven't touched the props trading yet, but I have seen a huge also growth in that industry because most of the time people kind of trade with the information and knowledge that they have rather than the capital they are holding in your hand. Still we see also in the retail end end that especially for the retail investor who are kind of a holding in a longer term special assets like a Bitcoin, they do are you know, investing and buying and holding, but still people need more working capital and that's where the futures market comes in. That's where the leverage high leverage it trades come in and also that's where the first market

come in. >> Yeah. Uh Vugar there there's something I want to I want to ask you be before I do let let's talk about the flows, right? Cuz one of the things that I really really like about platforms such as MEXC is that you guys have such a broad asset class. You've got such a breadth of chains, networks, assets. Now you're expanding into tokenized stocks and equities, but also across the entire crypto universe, you guys are able to list so many assets. So you have a very nice vantage point to determine where the flows are going, what is happening, what are people paying attention to.

Maybe you can just tell us where has most of the volume been coming from, what are the pairs that people are liking these days, what are they paying attention to right now in crypto, stocks etc. >> Very fairly noticed, we have almost all large stock pairs. We probably also list more than 3,000 pairs in a crypto. And we're known for being a list-first platform. Whether it is SpaceX shares that we pre-IPO'd, whether it's a still some cool crypto project that's coming in place. And that was also the way we've been attracting new users and motivating people to trade. Definitely, when it comes to like the where the interest is, we have seen that the way we have seen the trade in the

previous cycles, you know, when you have the Bitcoin rallying or you have an alt season or something is a hype, we don't think it we don't see it anymore, but we still see some clusters of the assets or particular projects that is coming in place. Zero knowledge was a little bit hype at some point. Currently, we see some RWAs and RWA-related projects that we like that are crypto-native is getting a pump. Still, here and there we are seeing a lot of meme projects are popping up even though they don't live long, unfortunately. But again, as I mentioned today, for the user, it is about the speed. And the way we have

this list-first approach is actually bringing that opportunity as fast as possible for the user because user's attention span is very short and user's interest to invest is very short. And even though user gets an opportunity to invest, as I mentioned, they're not here to just buy and hold unless we are talking like a substantial assets like Bitcoin. In most of the time because user also very conscious that this is a hype around, therefore they are looking for either a leverage trade or futures trade or trade basically that is fueled by the information to be covered. And I think soon we will be not only just thinking about what's happening in the stock market or crypto market? Actually, prediction market is becoming another

game changer in an industry. We see what's happening with the uh you know, Calchis and all the other players in the market. And in my opinion, more and more it is not about just trading because you believe in something. It's about how what's your proximity to information and how you can turn that information into an opportunity. >> Yeah. It I mean, it's pretty incredible to see, you know, how the universe of trading has evolved as of recently. Um and so I I think you're you know, you're absolutely right in terms of what people are paying attention to right now. Uh it's a different game. And so some people feel like their edge is in meme coins. You know, other people feel like their edge is in you know, maybe it's uh different crypto native tokens or maybe their edge is trading perps and whatnot.

But people are you know, they're using the access to information with AI, with the internet, you know, to to teach themselves different skills. And there's so many different ways to get involved, you know, different strategies with prediction markets and all kinds of things. Um >> But also you know, I I sorry to interrupt you. Just to add like more than because previously I believe that trading was a lot about expertise as you uh rightly mentioned, right? What is your edge? Are you like so good in you know, technical analysis? You know about stock market? You know about But today I think with especially with the technology and the speed, also people are using uh these diverse strategies to hedge against because um with the capital being so scarce, people are understanding especially the retail

trader. They understand that first rule of the game not to lose and stay longer and then kind of a turn it into the profit. And that hedging strategies and understanding, you know, if you are you know, putting your eggs into different baskets can actually keep you longer in the game. That is what makes the change. >> Yeah. And it's important, you know, from an exchange point of view, you don't want to churn through your users. You want them to make money on the platform. And I think, you know, that that's something that a lot of other platforms so sort of they failed to realize that sometimes especially you know take Coinbase right for example like they've been going through so much heat right now for the base app Brian changed his profile picture and then he changed it back and people

bought the meme coin and then they go here and there and a lot of people lost a lot of money and so you know there's sort of been this you know pros and cons of launching decentralized networks to go along with decentralized exchanges you know Coinbase maybe they make a lot of money from base but you know they've been rinsing their users on the other hand something like Robinhood you know just launched they have now a decentralized network to go along with their centralized exchange so this is a different example of something how you know they can pair quite nicely.

Where do you stand on this you know kind of back and forth do you think it makes sense for some of these decentralized networks these centralized exchanges to to launch blockchains or do you think the centralized exchanges should stay out of this game and stick to what they know best? >> I I I think it depends how big your ecosystem is and where do you make money my personal view is that especially for the MEXC I I try to envision the something that I love calling a life on chain and I believe whatever online was 10 15 20 years ago on chain is today.

And the way an organization or financial institution like us makes money is from every transaction and it can be a trade that you conduct but it can also be whenever you tap your MEXC card to buy a coffee and probably users buy coffee more often than they conduct a trade that is how we are expanding our ecosystem by bringing in more products but of course there are also successful case of let's say Binance where they introduce their own chain and ecosystem but today especially with my experience what happened in Bitget and with the Bitget wallet. I think in current world, in today's economy, it's more about bringing a product that solves a real-life solutions rather than

focusing on an infrastructure because we have seen that from BlackRock and all the other big players, they're also kind of a jumping in into this building infrastructure game, which requires a lot of capital. Definitely, a huge organization like Coinbase could do something like this, especially knowing that they're publicly listed company and all the information that, you know, goes to the shareholders and there's a different ways of value creation in comparison to a privately held company like MEXC where we are here to actually bring a value that is win-win for both the enterprises it serve and also the customers who use our product every day.

And I think that's a a very different ballgame that's happening in there. >> Yep. Yeah. That that That's absolutely true. And I think, you know, there's been sort of this motivation for exchanges to be like very profit hungry. Some of them are like, you know, all their all they care about is maximizing shareholder value. And these decentralized networks, they generate a lot of revenue, but it's at the expense of the user base. It feels like a short-term game where, you know, we're going to use all of these meme coins and flashy new things. You know, look, if people want to trade that, that's great, but typically, this just concentrates wealth and there's more losers than winners. And it makes the exchange a lot of money. However, it does not make the users a lot of money.

And so, there's like this give and take here that, you know, we're we're seeing play out on a lot of these networks. >> I I'd add one important factor. Sometimes users don't realize how cutthroat the industry is, especially like a centralized exchange industry, because the margins are super super super tiny and we have to compete against each other. And the moment you can't win in that price sensitive competition, you lose. And as MEXC, we are one of the frontiers of zero-fee trading. Most of our pairs, around like 200 pairs out of 3,000, is completely zero fee in futures.

Entire spot market is zero fee. Our spot market is zero fee. And we are kind of a running this frontier. Therefore, our margins are too thin. But again, the huge difference between a publicly listed company is that like a Coinbase, as you mentioned, they definitely need to be profitable every quarter. That's why they will be more interested in that kind of a short-term gains. And they have to reinvent how they make money every quarter because otherwise their shareholders wouldn't be happy. When you're privately held company, definitely you can play a longer game. You can go do big investment even in a bear market because that is a different discussion rather than being a, you know, quarterly report. When it comes to decentralized world, they make much more money because they

don't have to have, you know, huge customer care teams and huge marketing teams. They don't have as, you know, expensive operation in there. But also decentralized exchanges, they can charge sometimes up to 50% transaction fees that definitely they makes them much more money. And it is very niche, but also it's very hard to compare rather than, you know, today if you go to any large catalog and open top 10 exchanges, in a single click you can look at your maker fees, taker fees, and how much money is on the table. And you'll see that it is on 0.something percentages.

>> Yeah. The This is the thing that I wanted to I wanted to get by you as well, which is that you're right, there's a lot of like fee monopolization and and like, you know, just kind of cutthroat abilities, like you're saying, on on some of these networks, especially on very illiquid pairs. And so sometimes, you know, the user is at the the mercy of the platform itself. They don't really know what they're getting themselves into. At the same time, you have this phenomenon where there's more DEX trading than I think than ever. I saw a tweet from uh our friend of the show, Frank Chaparro. He said, "The bear market is ushering in the age of the DEX." The DEX to sex spot volume ratio

is now above 20% after peaking at nearly 28% earlier this year. The market has been increasingly favorable to DEXs. Uniswap, for example, is up 30% over the past month compared with Coinbase's 6% gain. So, when you look at the ratio of DEX to sex, and you think, "Okay, well, there's a lot of price gouging that might happen on decentralized in in illiquid pairs, right?" And then you sort of compare that with what you're seeing on your platform, why do you think the ratio of DEX to sex spot volume has moved in this uptrend?

>> To Carlos, I have a theory and I think the biggest reason is that, especially in a bear market, most of the traders are this advanced crypto advanced users that can still make money through finding, as you mentioned, you know, arbitraging and finding that hidden gems or doing the trades that an average retail user of a centralized exchange wouldn't think about. I'm sure once we go back to the bull market, we will have a different ratio because, in my opinion, healthy ratio should be around 10 to 15%, but today, because we don't have that many or that much volume in terms of the trading in the centralized exchanges by the crypto newbies, that's how, again, it is about

how cutthroat the industry is and how hard it is to survive the bear market, and that's why we see so much interest in a decentralized world because most of spot market is, again, we see a huge raise in there because that is where the most value creation happens. Also, I need to be very frank and transparent that now there's a huge sentiment, especially among the spot pairs, that once a project makes it to decentralized exchange, whether it's MEXC or any other big exchange, it is kind of end of their growth era. That is where you will stop seeing, you know, uh 5 X's, 10 X's, and that is another reason why people go to try to find a project that hasn't made it to a centralized exchanges yet.

>> But then how how do you how do you fix that? And And look, you know, centralized exchanges in crypto assets are not the only ones that are, you know, facing this issue. You look at the public markets in the US. You look at the IPOs. I mean, SpaceX, right? Had a little blip upwards, but then has been down only. This is the reason why private companies are not looking to IPO. And this is the same thing that we have understood in crypto for a long time. Once you launch the token, it's been this low float, high FDV, venture investors get out, dump the exit liquidity on the on incoming investors, you know, whether that's decentralized or centralized exchanges. So, how do you how do you handle new token launches when for a long time, maybe a year plus,

new token launches have seemed to be like kind of down only? How do you how do you choose what to list and make sure that the things that you're listing don't just go down only? >> It's such a huge trade-off, right? Whether you need to find this project and still, you know, do that enough checks to make sure that they have right capital, they have right unlocked, they have right utility to make sure that the token wouldn't be going down and you delisting. And that is one advice I always give to the founders that we are listing tokens that token listing is just the start of a journey. It is not an accomplishment. It is actually putting yourself into into a very bigger game, and you need to work with a different audience because now you have a new audience, new client

clientele who is the traders. You have to still appeal to them. You have to work with the right market makers and right institutions to make sure that you have enough liquidity and the right amount of you know the price difference and that is one question I believe that we all need to find an answer as an industry but definitely like MEXC was one of the historically also a platform that is still known for the being a discovery platform and we take a huge pride being one of the centralized exchanges still list a daring project we still been listing projects even in current market conditions because we also have a

very democratic listing process we don't act in a black box we don't you know go take 30% of the supply as the other large exchanges do and that was helping us to actually bring these gems to our users that eventually after MEXC couple of weeks or months later other large exchanges would list a token and we will be still seeing you know two three X happening on that tokens before you know market stabilizes but again there is no like a single answer that can fit and whether it is you know a company that is run by Elon Musk and builds a spaceship or it is just a meme coin by and oh again like we have seen in the beginning

of the year how like present Trump's family you know launched their meme coins where it is now I believe it lost like 95% value or something like that therefore no matter who the founder is what kind of project it is there is no guarantee and there's no way to guarantee that you know the project will survive >> got that absolutely right Andy >> yeah looking forward Vugar just trying to understand like strategy changes for the bull market how do you think about you know how MEXC's next two years look like you know different market dynamic different timing different set of users coming in a lot of institutional adoption happening.

What does the meaningful strategy change look like from the operations perspective from the CEO? >> When it comes to institutions coming, I always had this very controversial view in on institutions. Uh And when you today look at the top 10, 15 large exchanges, 80% of their volume comes from institutions. Institutions are their main client. Our strategy is very different. MEXC is very retail focused and that is at least for next 2 3 years, that is my strategy to make sure that we keep ourselves as a retail native and build the products that will eventually help the retail users. Therefore, uh I envision ourselves becoming a next uh financial home for a user where they can

embrace the life on chain. Meaning, you can earn uh your capital, whether you are getting, you know, paid uh your salary or you're earning in crypto. You could park your uh funds. You will still still have an opportunity to invest, whether you want to diversify, whether you are a holder or a professional trader, you still have a great trading platform that can help you to multiply your money, but also uh API offers in the market, even with the stable coins and uh recently we introduced MEXC card, helping users to spend because I believe if you want to embrace retail, you have to give them enough opportunities in the right time to seize, but also it is not

just about making money, it's also about uh spending money. And that's where we're going to focus rather than building a new exchange for to serve institutions. Definitely, we are increasing our institutional capabilities, the speed, the technology, the trading engine, but today and for the next couple of years, my focus will be how we remain true to ourselves and still remain >> Yeah. >> a retail native uh ecosystem. And this is a very, very [clears throat] hard thing to do because especially retail is very much impacted by the market cycle. You'll see a huge influx in a bull run and you know, a very small amount of trades conducted in a bear market while institutions keep trading all the time no matter what the market does. But I believe especially

with our investment in AI, we will be able to bring institutional grade trading tools to the users in hopes that retail user can have an access to the same sort of intelligence and speed to conduct that trade. >> Yeah. Love that Vugar. Yeah, I mean I agree. I think a lot of people you know, have changed their strategies because of the dynamics and I mean look at us. I mean I'm in the Empire State Building. I got a nice shirt on. You're wearing a nice jacket. I mean the whole space is getting mature. I think that's one distinction but I think the strategy and the ethos can can remain. So I like that take and thanks for joining us. I hope you have a great weekend and congrats on the new role 100 days in. So uh to the next 100 days.

>> Thank you very much for having me and to the next 100 and more days and creating new opportunities for people and for actual retail users like you and me who wants to embrace the new finance and I think that was the ethos of also Satoshi when you know, put the white paper. It's about cutting the middle man. Even though we all sort of a middle man, I think our end goal should be how we build a better opportunity for everyone. >> Got that right. Thanks so much Vugar. We will see you next time and uh keep on keeping on. Catch you later.

All right, buddy. All right, Rob. A little bit of red on that bottom ticker there, huh? Little market check-in. >> Yeah. >> BTC 641 >> Chop chop chop chop chop. >> ETH 58 >> How much apathy I If I mean you you we could we could talk about whether this is apathy >> I mean did you see the Ben Cowen video I sent in the chat yesterday? >> No. What do you think? >> uh it was like a 7-minute Bitcoin social cycles video. >> Maybe we'll watch it. >> And um it was nuts. I mean, uh for example, layer ones were gaining a combined 100k followers a day in 2021.

They're gaining like less than 5,000 a day combined right now. Top influencers were averaging and you know, combined 3 million views a day on YouTube. Um now it's like I mean, I think we're looking at a couple 100k ish. Um Google's trends, um social scores, everything. >> From But looking at the top of it now? >> not even the top of last cycle, it's 2021. >> Mhm. >> It's 2021 because the altcoins a lot of alts did not perform last cycle.

And so, yeah, it's pretty insane what's happening. But then I looked at, you know, I look at our kind of numbers on YouTube and stuff, and I'm pretty pleased with like just, you know, how how well uh the kind of numbers have held up. So. >> Yeah, I I'd say so. I mean, uh our engagement is up into the right. Uh I also saw, you know, there's people that are doing well out there. So, it feels like it's really just gotten this this uncorrelation that's happening quite a bit. >> It is split up, I agree. I think it's decorrelation.

>> Decorrelation? Sure. >> Yeah. And who am I? I'm not the I'm not the grammar police. I would never kill a cow. >> Appreciate that. Let's keep the cows alive until we're ready to Until we're ready to eat them. >> Then Guys, we've got um we've got a lovely friend Sam Callahan of Orange BTC, Orange Orange. Uh talking about Bitcoin's macro case. Last time we had Sam on, we spoke about the work that they were doing down in Latin America. Believe it was Brazil, if I'm not mistaken. Um speaking about kind of raising capital down there, the Bitcoin landscape. But I I I think for this conversation, it's much more what's going on. Like what a four-year cycle, and sailor, ETFs, stretch,

and just thinking about the dynamics versus something like Zcash, the investable nature of Bitcoin in this AI rotation. So, curious to hear I mean a lot of the Bitcoin thesis stays the same. Rob, time and time again. You know what I mean? >> Oh, yeah. >> But it does change in terms of like where you are in the cycle and where where things are at. LeBron is is Cardano, MJ's Bitcoin. There you go, Edward. Guys, how we doing? How's your week? How was your week in the markets? How was your Did you guys trade this week? How are your holdings doing longer term? Are you guys just riding out with us?

Let us know how you're doing. Let's get Sam up in here. Get the Get the show on the road with Sam. Talking Bitcoin, talking macro. Sam, good good to have you back, man. Great to see you. >> Thanks for having me back, guys. Happy Friday. >> Happy Friday. You uh You're giving Texas vibes today or something. You must be somewhere down there. >> Texas? No, I'm up in outside Chicago. >> All right, here we go. >> Yeah, Midwest. >> That's what I was going for. Beautiful this time of year. >> Yes, it is. It's actually very perfect outside right now. >> Oh.

>> Where are you guys at? >> I'm in New York. Rob's down in South Florida. >> York. So, we got all corners here covered. >> That's right. >> Very cool. >> So, Sam, tell us what what you see out there on Bitcoin these days because people are they're getting chopped up and they're trying to figure out are we going higher or we going lower? >> Well, I think that too, but Sam also just a little bit more context. I think they're also everyone's like bracing for this final move down before the four-year cycle is over. Like it's like so consensus that this is just either a chop consolidation or a one more BTC move down and we're bottomed. I think that's I think that's how people feel right now. And they're getting chopped up obviously.

>> Yeah, I think people are looking at previous bear markets and trying to overlay that to what's happening today, trying to guess where the bottom's at. If Bitcoin were to repeat itself, it would go down like 70 to 80% it'll last till October, November. So, that would put us at like 40k. That's not my base case. Um I think the market structure is very, very different than previous bear markets. Um if we see some kind of broader macro uh deterioration and stock markets correct 20%, then yeah, I think Bitcoin could definitely get to those levels cuz I think Bitcoin will get wrapped up in everything else. Correlations go to one.

Uh Bitcoin would sell off temporarily. Um but right now, Bitcoin there's a lot of signs of on-chain capitulation, sentiment's really low right now. There's a lot of fear in the market. Uh Bitcoin's not really talked about as much anymore in the public mainstream media. Um and and so I I think because of the changing investor base that's occurred, we we almost saw a It was the worst bull market. You know, people had expected it to go to 200k and now it's going to be the best bear market and that's really just a sign of a different volatility regime that we're in. We've had suppressed volatility in Bitcoin as it gets adopted and matures, we should expect that to continue.

And so, my base case is that we're not going to see as severe of a correction as previous bear markets and that, you know, the 60k, 58k, down to 50, you know, all those things are are possible, but you know, I think this is a good entry point for long-term investors, you know, can't get too greedy with it 50% off its all-time highs and then the fundamental use reasons why you should hold Bitcoin are only getting more prevalent if you look at the macro backdrop. So, um long-term investors should be licking their chops at these levels, I think.

>> Yeah, Robby and I kept seeing or keep saying or, you know, really Rob that the mid-term year, you know, if you look at Benjamin Cowen's uh analysis, he does a great job with his Into the Cryptoverse stuff and his charts and, you know, it it it's typically a slow year, but in the in the zeitgeist, what you get is commentary around the national debt. And like what this president, whether they're left or right-leaning, has done to the national debt because of their spending habits, whether it be war or welfare. And and so, or some combination of those, and so, um you know, we're kind of entering that phase, right, where it's coinciding with the typical end of the mid-term year, Bitcoin bear market bottoms. You get chatter about inflation, oil prices, inflation. Trump, you know, added this

many more trillions to the national debt. But you don't you have not heard this for the last 9 months. All you've heard is AI is going to eat the world, right? And so, there's been just like a massive attention and capital shift in terms of like where investors are paying attention and what like broader thesis uh they're ascribing the most value to. So, just curious like what you think may cause the narrative revival. I mean, number go up technology is obviously the best. But uh how do you think about like the AI uh liquidity and attention sink and also like the context of the mid-terms?

>> Yeah, I think what happened going into the year was there's a lot of fear around the the conflict in the Middle East, and there was more focus on these fiscal, currency, and geopolitical risks. And so, the debasement trade was the talk of the town. Gold was ripping, silver was ripping, Bitcoin was bouncing uh pretty heavily in the beginning of the year. But then that tower has kind of subsided, there's ceasefires, you know, uh oil didn't go up to 150 like everybody expected, actually came down. >> And then the AI trade, and there's a lot of shiny objects out there, prediction markets, um that are, you know, Bitcoin has more competition for the marginal dollar uh than it has in probably previous years.

Um when you look at even the anticipated IPOs that are still likely to come into the market over the the second half of the year. That'll probably continue. Um and so I think that's part of the relative outperformance that you've seen with these like tech stocks. But it's important to remember that you know, Bitcoin's not a tech stock. You know, the fundamental thesis around Bitcoin is very, very different and its drivers are different. Bitcoin's driven by network effect as well as its monetary policy and the macro factors like the openness of capital markets, increased capital controls, concerns around the fiscal sustainability. You know, those are the reasons why you should hold Bitcoin and as you mentioned, you know, I get a little frustrated because there's always so much focus on Bitcoin's short-term

volatility when it's a long duration asset. It's a it's a way to save over a long period of time. And the problems that Bitcoin uh potentially solve is only worsening. As you said, the deterioration of the fiscal picture, there's not enough conversation about it. It's another $2 trillion deficit this year. >> Yeah. >> And we don't have a major war or recession. You know, the debt held by the public crossed 100% of GDP for the first time since World War II. Um and and you look at so right now you have inflationary pressures. You got Kevin Warsh coming in and testifying saying, "Hey, we're going to fight inflation." You know, and people are thinking it's going to hike interest rates in the short term, um which is fine. Okay, he can he can

talk the talk and do that temporarily. But when you really crunch the numbers of when you have $39 trillion of debt, you can't afford to have interest rates go up too high or else the interest expense and the fiscal deficits explode. And the fiscal deficits, in my opinion, are the main driver of economic activity and inflation expectations today given how large they are. And so when you're in that environment, you know, the Kevin Warsh testimony, people were focused on what he said about inflation, but he said something else. He said, "In times of crisis, I'm not afraid of being quite aggressive with my balance sheet, the Fed's balance sheet, Uh uh to buy assets. Um and that's what as a Bitcoin holder, you should hear that and be like, "Okay, they're still going to

intervene whenever there's kind of uh dysfunction in the Treasury market, if the stock market corrects heavily." There's this this problem of Fed intervention, a Fed put, to expand the money supply and expand the Fed's balance sheet whenever something happens. And that's why you should hold Bitcoin cuz ultimately it's the currency that gets sacrificed. You know, Warsh is going to come into a dilemma of should I save the bond market or should I save the dollar? And always they seem to choose the latter of sacrificing the dollar, coming in and saving the bond market because it would be catastrophic if they let the bond market >> break.

>> lose things. So, like, that's the real reason to hold Bitcoin and none of that's changed. And so >> Yeah, I know. So, what is there to talk about? Should we just send everyone for a weekend or what? >> Let me ask you a a question that that may drive the Clippers wild here because typically when, you know, Fed chairpeople talk about, you know, their balance sheet, they talk about buying, you know, Treasuries, bonds, you know, using that as uh and every once in a while they they use their balance sheet to buy, you know, corporate uh corporate paper, you know, if it comes time to like bail out the banks or something, you know, super uh super systemic like that. But, the question here is, do you think that because Kevin Warsh is a little bit unorthodox as a chairman, there's a

chance that he could actually buy assets like Bitcoin and put them on the Fed balance sheet? >> Well, I think the the odds of anybody doing that um has increased because he has been spoken positively about Bitcoin. Uh he is younger, he understands technology, and he said that he's he's not afraid to be innovative uh with the Fed's balance sheet. And he's talked about a new Fed Treasury Accord. I think before he went the route of putting Bitcoin on the balance sheet, he'd probably do something like revalue the gold. Um that's something that would be very interesting if Kevin Warsh decided to do that to kind of improve the fiscal outlook a little bit.

Um but he's he said that he's done more innovative things. You know, what I think central banks and this isn't probably like the best what you wanted in terms of the answer, but central banks are probably going to be the last to adopt Bitcoin because the reason why central banks hold FX reserves is very different than say uh you know, a family office building trying to preserve wealth for generations. That's not really what central banks are trying to do, especially foreign central banks. What they're doing trying to do with their FX reserves is when there's an external shock to the economy or or their currency is falling really quickly, they want to sell some FX reserves and then buy their currencies to support their

currencies or to, you know, provide stability for some kind of financial crisis or or economic shock. And Bitcoin today is still viewed as a risk asset. And so in those periods where there is more volatility, it it tends to fall with everything else, at least in that moment. And that's when central banks want their FX reserves to actually show stability. And so until Bitcoin matures more and that volatility profile comes down and the market views it as they probably should view it as a safe haven asset that doesn't have a lot of these risks associated with other assets, until that happens, I I I don't think central banks are going to adopt it.

Like the Czech Central Bank did a pilot program, which was a great first step, and they modeled out what a Bitcoin allocation would do. And they did say that it provides diversification, but they said that the volatility prevented them from doing it for the reasons that I just kind of mentioned. Like today, Bitcoin's not really a good FX reserve. Now, I think that'll change because uh gold is already now the the largest FX reserve holding. It just surpassed US Treasuries. Governments around the world and central banks are looking for a political neutral reserve assets in this environment of heightened geopolitical fragmentation and instability. There's only like two. It's Bitcoin and gold.

And the Bitcoin uh you know, understanding in those circles is very low. It's very young and immature in their eyes. But eventually, every single balance sheet's going to hold Bitcoin. I just don't think Kevin Warsh is going to be the one to do it. I think it's just a little early for a central bank adoption, but Yeah. Maybe he'll prove me wrong. >> Yeah, and I don't think it's going to come from the US first, either. Right? Like I think they'll be diff like, you know, El Salvador's a good example of this. Um obviously, they kind of went way out and turned their entire or a lot of their holdings of their of of US dollars into Bitcoin, made it legal tender. But you know, if we don't think central banks are the next kind of buyers and holders of of Bitcoin,

once we get through this kind of institutional phase, you know, we just I mean, for lack of a better term, we just need more money. Like, we just need that next marginal buyer to come from somewhere. And and we know that, you know, China and Oh, we lost Sam, I think. We know that China is buying a lot of gold. We know that uh we get a lot of uh gold purchases from from the US, too. So, Rob, I guess I'm just kind of curious like, who do you think that would be? Like, if it was if it's not governments that are buying the same ones that are buying the gold, who's buying who's buying the Bitcoin next? You know what I mean?

>> Yeah, exactly. I mean, um It it has to be some sort of like >> It's like, where's the net net piece >> Like, sovereign wealth funds or something? >> Yeah, the next like piece of marginal liquidity. I mean, part of it is just more liquidity entering the system. >> Right. >> Um it could be, you know, individuals, it could be companies, it could be banks, it could be all these guys and they just have, you know, lower interest rates, they're able to borrow more, there's more liquidity in the system and Bitcoin is uh the numerator >> Yeah. >> or uh you know, one side of that fraction and if the other one grows, you know, it it's just a measure of the amount of liquidity in the system.

>> Right. >> think that is one one part of this. >> But you know, if you look at the M2 supply graph that that used to always tell us it's like this now. >> Right. And to what, you know, what is that? Well, I think the the marginal liquid like all that liquidity ended up going into AI >> Or something, yeah. >> build-out rather than going into Bitcoin. >> Yeah. >> Um who is going to be the one to deploy it into Bitcoin? I think is is more so the question that you're asking. There's probably like like Sam and and like you were saying, like there's probably one step in between where we are now with these institutions and uh central banks.

>> Yeah. >> And it's probably more um it's more like hedge fund, pension fund, it's not quite, you know, corporate balance sheet, but it's also not quite central bank balance sheet. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I think we have Sam back, so uh I'm going to let him pick this up, but you know, we're talking about who is the next net new buyer. And because, you know, we've obviously gone through some of the individual retail adoption, you know, that sort of ebbs and flows with the market. >> Yeah. >> We've gotten more corporate balance sheet adoption, again, ebbs and flows based on corporate strategy, but between where we are now, the institutional adoption, and where we are probably headed eventually with the central bank balance sheets, Sam, who is there an

intermediate step? Is it, you know, hedge fund uh sort of sovereigns that, you know, or pension funds that are just longer time horizon, stickier sinks of liquidity between the corporate balance sheets where we are now and the the you know long inevitable central bank balance sheets. >> Yeah, sorry guys. My camera just kind of >> stopped working there. Um, but yeah, so look, I I just I I know this is like a meme and stuff, but we really are like incredibly early. Um, you know, there's a lot of these institutions that have come in. I mean, it's it's the tip of the iceberg.

I mean, there's only like a handful of of sovereign wealth funds, um, RIAs, pension funds that have made any kind of meaningful allocation to the space or recommendations. Um, it takes time. Like, you know, even the ETFs launched, it was it was incredibly impressive how much AUM they built in such a short period of time, but a lot of these RIAs, these large firms, financial advisors, which are gatekeepers of trillions of dollars of wealth, they they they takes a long time for them to change, uh, you know, their investment mandates to allow to allocate to a new asset. They they want to see a trade longer and they need to learn about Bitcoin still.

And, you know, we even saw that the banking industry just now is over the last year is starting to embrace Bitcoin now that the regulatory barriers have drawn down over the last couple years. And so, we're really in the early early early phases of that. So, I think the marginal next dollar in Bitcoin is still going to be individuals. It's still going to be >> Yep. >> more financial advisors recommending it to their clients, um, pension funds. That might be a little bit further out. My more bet would be like sovereign wealth funds.

Um, we'll start to increase their exposure. I mean, we saw the Abu Dhabi sovereign wealth fund not only allocate, but also increase their position during the market correction as they rebalanced. So, they're maintaining their their position, which is really good sign. And so, we're in the early stages of this stuff, and um you know, governments, that's kind of a the strategic Bitcoin reserve, I did not really expect that that soon in its own frameworks to see the US come out and announce something like that. I love to see that codified into the law.

I love to see that audit, finally. Um >> Yeah. >> But in general, those are like really interesting data points. And then corporate adoption also, you know, so tiny the today. You know, strategy gets a lot of the headlines in some of these treasury companies, including Orange BTC, but only 200-plus public companies in the world hold any Bitcoin. >> Right. Yeah. >> cash these large corporations are holding? >> Yeah. And it's a small amount of Bitcoin too. >> it's it's insane. And so, they're sitting on melting ice cubes. Um And and over time, as the inflationary pressures continue to rise, as currency debasement continues to occur, because

of the debt dynamics that I talked about earlier, it's kind of baked in the cake, you know, when governments face these obligations, they can't plausibly escape them through taxation or growth, they turn to the only politically viable path left, which is debase the currency or inflate the debt nominally, and then let the currencies absorb the damage. So, you know, in that environment, I think corporations that hold a ton of cash are going to increasingly do what Saylor did in 2020, which was seek alternatives, and then land on Bitcoin. And even if it's a 1% allocation, you know, that's meaningful marginal demand. And so, we're in the very, very early stages of this stuff. Um and so, next cycle, I expect just more of the same. Um and

more better investor access, better products, you know, better cost for end users for things like lending, as more and more competition comes into that space. You You that's kind of what needs to occur before more and more people can buy Bitcoin, but >> Yeah. >> um obviously like the Clarity Act and some of these regulatory developments could improve that even further. Um but in general, I think it's just more of the same and we just like barely touched the surface of uh scratched the surface for institutional adoption. >> Yeah. Yeah, how do you um how do you reconcile with the whole um you know, state of the network with regards to Saylor kind of in his part of it with regards to like the quantum uh part of

it. There's a couple like key little like narrative deep like you know, little like tail risks here that people love to claim right now in the bear and um you know, push an alternative that would be like, "Okay, buy Zcash or uh buy gold or whatever it is." Talk to us just about those two things. Saylor stretch, blow up, overextended, etc. Does the market need to wash him out? And quantum. >> You know, it's just funny because like um you know, Saylor and strategy team have created a capital structure that's extremely resilient and durable. Um and so if Bitcoin were to wash them out, it would mean that Bitcoin would have to go down like another 90% and then stay down

there for many, many years. Basically do something that's never happened before in Bitcoin's history. Yeah, people really misunderstand. You know, they're they're not actually highly levered at all um when they issue a lot of equity to buy the Bitcoins. Preferred equity, so there's no maturity date or margin calls or liquidation thresholds. Um and so I'm not really worried about strategy. I think there's a lot of misinformation about the risks associated there. Um now there are there are risks uh associated with any financial product. There's issuer risk that doesn't exist by holding spot Bitcoin. So you have to understand that when you hold say MSTR, you're changing your risk from the protocol to a management team's ability to execute. And that's there, you know,

you're betting on their ability to outperform Bitcoin. And so, if you're interested in even more volatility and a way to outperform Bitcoin, then that's something for you. And so, I just I don't really think that's a risk. Um I think they've designed their capital structure to be resilient to withstand these exact market conditions. Now, the quantum stuff, I I wrote a whole piece on this at orangebtc.com. You can you can read it just to kind of laying out the debate. And from my own research, I I just think that the the quantum risk is highly theoretical, um and less imminent than a lot of the headlines suggest. And at the same time, there's a there's a lot more debate and discourse going on um around potential paths to make Bitcoin

more uh quantum proof, so to speak. I think there's a misunderstanding of what the threat even is. Like, it won't break Bitcoin. It just kind of uh if if a computer came around that had the ability, a quantum computer, it could like unlock old keys. And And so, it's about giving them paths to uh you know, move those key move those coins if they want to into a {quote} quantum proof address. And so, you know, I think the threat itself is misunderstood. I think it's highly theoretical, and I think the paths to address that potential threat, there's there's many of them, and there's a lot of discussion.

The challenge with Bitcoin is that it's actually uh decentralized. You know, some of these other protocols they say like, "Hey, we we're already quantum proof. We have this foundation. We We have a road map. Blah blah blah." Um it just shows me that they're more centralized. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> move quickly and coordinate any kind of governance changes to the protocol in response to some kind of theoretical threat. You know, that's not how Bitcoin works. It has a unique coordination challenge because it's actually decentralized. Um you know, there's no company or foundation or leadership group that can simply rewrite the rules and force a network to follow them.

It makes Bitcoin really strong and secure uh, because it you can't rush a technical upgrade. Um, it you know, there's longer debate, longer review, which means that you should get this discussion going now. Um, come up with potential solutions because it could take years if we wanted to actually move something through. Um, but that's a feature not a bug because it prevents harmful upgrades to the protocol that can lead to more centralized forces or or hurt the credibility of the monetary policy. If it threatens the 21 million total supply, you know, obviously a much bigger problems on your hand than any kind of theoretical quantum threat. Uh, so, you know, sometimes the road to hell is

paved in good intentions. So, if you >> Yeah. >> push through a fix that has unforeseen consequences and second order effects that messes with the incentives of the protocol or threatens the policy or the security, uh, then then what did you actually do? You actually just harmed the very thing that you were trying to save. So, um, >> Yeah. >> long story short, I'm just I'm not that worried about those tail risks. I think Paul Tudor Jones went on TV and talked about gold and Bitcoin as potential inflation hedge. And I thought it was notable that with Bitcoin he only mentioned two highly theoretical tail risks in the quantum threat as well as a global cyber security attack that brings down the entire internet. And with gold,

um, he brought up dilution, which is a structural feature of gold, right? It's you know, Bitcoin has a fixed supply. It's the only commodity with a fixed supply, whereas gold gets diluted 1.7% a year, which means like you lose half your purchasing power every 40 years. Bitcoin doesn't have that. So, I think, you know, those tail risks, uh, people are focused on them, but they are theoretical. They're tail risks. Um, and over time, I think with all these other tail risks that existed in Bitcoin's past, they kind of fall to the wayside, like governments banning Bitcoin. Nobody talks about that anymore, right? And so, I think it's the kind of the last piece of fud that Bitcoin has to overcome before people just fully

accept the fact that Bitcoin's here to stay. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> It well certainly is. Um, Sam, I think we're closing in on all the time that we have. We I mean, this is some super, uh, just inspiring because sometimes I think we get a little too zoomed in because, uh, you know, we're on the charts. We do the show every day, do it live, but you guys uh >> Yeah. >> Yeah, but it, you know, it, we we also get tied up a little bit in, uh, you know, the Sailor things here and the rhetoric there, and it's important to also just get back to our roots because these are some of the the conversations that, you know, initially got us involved in the space, uh, and they still remain true today.

But, uh, through all of the noise of the day-to-day, you know, I think even people that have been in the space for a long time, they continue being in the space, uh, they lose sight of the bigger picture. So, appreciate you coming in and, uh, telling us about the bigger picture, reminding us, you know, that the true principles here that, you know, make Bitcoin what it is, uh, all of that, uh, you know, remain remain solid, remains true. Uh, before we let you go, just let us know where our community can find, uh, you and, uh, learn more about Orange Bitcoin. >> Yeah, thanks. I mean, yeah, I mean, that's my biggest advice for bear markets is focus on the fundamentals, understand what you own and why you own it, and if your your thesis has changed, uh, then, you know, revisit why you held

it in the first place, but if the thesis is only stronger, then, uh, take it as an opportunity, right? Um, but yeah, so you can you can find me at @samcalla, s a m c a l l a h, on X, share analysis, uh, Orange BTC, that's spelled with a J. You can go to our our website, orangebtc.com, read some of the the quantum piece up there. I've written a couple other pieces. You can read some content there as well as follow us on X where we share our company updates. But thanks for having me guys. Always a pleasure to speak and then share my thoughts.

>> Beautiful. Thanks, Sam. Have a great weekend, buddy. It's beautiful weather up here in the north, so I'm sure sure I'm sure you'll enjoy it. >> We will see on the other side of this bear. >> All right, cool. Thanks, guys. Talk soon. >> Catch you later, Sam. Cheers, buddy. >> Thanks, man. >> [screaming] [cheering] >> See you on the other side of this bear. That's got to be the new exiting line for the guests as we'll bring them on in the coming months following 3 to 6 months from now. >> Feels imminent, man. >> See you at the end of the bear. >> Yeah. I mean, if you Just don't get chopped up, man. I feel like we I'm excited. I feel like it really is on the other side. Like there's so many things that are just pointing to um pointing to this just being on the on

the precipice. >> Yeah. Agreed. Guys, what a week. I am off to Argentina next week. It has been a lovely Friday here tokenization tower. All you guys in the chat, give us a W's in the chat. Give some throw a like, throw a subscribe on there. Um it's been a great show. Tough tough week choppy week in the market a bit. But >> Choppy, man. >> where we're going to be? We're going to be here. We're going to be there. We're going to be live. We're going to walk you through it. We're going to survive if there's one more dump. We're going to be right there. We're going to be ready to buy it. We're going to be going in. All right. So guys >> there, guys. Don't get chopped up.

Everything's going to be all right. It's time to build positions for the long haul. Just zoom out. Year-long time horizons. >> Yep. I mean, that's how we've done that's the only way that Robin and I have made money in this market is buy something, hold it for 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, a year, over a year. Perps, I'm down on perps right now. I threw some money on variation of the farm it. I'm down on perps. Like trying to take big size and position. I'm down on that, too. Like buy stuff that you want to hold for a long time, vault it, have conviction. If thesis change, changes it, but DCA in. >> Yeah.

>> Especially now, second half of Q second half of 2026 DCAs will look very smart in hindsight. Dubious in the chat. Great show. >> Have a great weekend. >> Peace. [music] >> [music]