🚨LIVE: Korea Markets Contagion?! EF Lays Of 20% Of Staff! STRC $87. Swan & Alpaca Join Today

Transcript

Heat. [music] Heat. [music] [music] >> [music] >> Thank you.

>> [music] >> We'll see you around the timeline. Feels good to be back. >> I think The Rollup is one of the most premier media brands [music] in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. adding it to my library [music] every day. >> Potentially multi-chain deployments. We are at the connect day one [music] here. I'm testing from space. [music] [music]

>> [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. >> [music] [music] [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity,

the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. >> He said it. HE FINALLY SAID IT. So bullish. >> It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. >> [music] [music]

>> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music] >> Corola [music] is headed to the top. If

we're not already at the top, we're going to the tugos. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> From all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the roll up. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music]

>> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] Welcome to the nest. See you on the show. Close the door. >> Marcus down, but we up. [applause] >> Let's go, Rob. >> Guys, welcome to the show. June 23rd. Wow. What happened last night? Apparently, the Korean degenerate overlevered monkeys threw us for a whirl. Dumped our stocks, dumped our tokens, dumped our everything. You're watching the roll up. We are live from the tokenizational tokenization tower the nest broadcasting live from the

financial capital of the world. Today's June 23rd we have a great show ahead. We've got Cory clip scene of swan arouch of alpaca. As always guys we're live in the tower powered by our friends at plume at the nest onchain infrastructure for a future of asset management. Rob what happened to our portfolio overnight? >> I'll tell you what >> GM Rocky what's going on man? Good to see you here. >> I'll tell you what happened Andy. So last night began a journey into a spiritual realm. >> Personally, I'm continuing on this path.

I will be taking it directly into the Peruvian Highlands. But you know, there's this >> okay, >> there's all sorts of magical mystery happening and energy in the air. It's a very fascinating phenomenon. This concept of decorrelation, >> concept of decoupling. >> Yeah. Relative strength trade, guys. >> Relative strength trade. >> Great. Great job. Roll up. [applause] Chem Holland. Yo, what's up, girl? How you doing? I watched uh Holland last night play soccer at the World Cup. Two goals. Guy was on fire. I've never seen a guy accelerate like that.

>> Like the like the goalie gets the ball >> in the box by himself. Anytime the goalie would get the ball, this guy would just like it was like a cheetah attacking a baby wilderbeast in the wild, he would just turn on the jets and it' be like bang and he just charged the goalie. One [snorts] time he successfully got the ball from the goalie one-on-one. He's on the far right side. Crowd starts to everyone stands up. Holland starts sprinting. Everyone just jumps up, gets the ball, goes to the side, shoots it right past the goalie, right off the right post, missed it.

>> Wow. >> Oh, dude. It was something else. Never seen anything like I've never seen a guy I've never seen a guy go from like Dude, this guy like he doesn't even play the game. He just like trots around midfield for like 79 minutes, spends like another like 12 minutes in the box. just kind of like standing there and then the rest of like the three minutes of the game he just puts the jets on. I just it is just insane. Like he does nothing. He does scored two goals, did nothing the whole game, puts the jets on for like three minutes of the whole game and scores two goals.

>> Saw another video of Messi just standing there, not even running, just standing there and all of a sudden one thing comes another. Balls bouncing back and forth, ping pong across the different parts of the field. Somehow it ends up in his area. He gets it. turns on the Jets immediately sprints and attacks the goal. >> And this is against Sagal. Holland was outpacing the Seneagali elite. All right, guys. We're at the tower. We got markets and weather live. We got the Swan CEO live. We've got the alpaca head of Crypto in the Tower. As always, our topics are powered by our friends at Treasure. Use code rollup10. Treasure.io. Got yourself a hardware wallet. Secure your coins.

Secure your keys. Don't get quantum attacked. Don't get me rug pulled like Jared from Subway. Let's get into the markets for Mr. Stein to join because he have some takes on >> stretch. Yeah. All right guys, let's get into the markets and the weather. Before we do, let me tell you about our partner Fracks building infrastructure for the future of digital money. Open, stable, borderless, the most scalable stable coin infrastructure for the future of finances at frack.com. It's a beautiful 67 end of June 67° in the city. I know if you if you remember last year, Rob, we were at Permissionless outside on our very first in-person live stream conference event.

>> How could I forget? >> And it was 92 degrees. >> How's it feeling outside in Brooklyn? It was terrible. >> Today, 67, windows open, vibes are up. >> Got to feel like uh what? Nice, chill, comfortable 70 or so in the studio. >> Yeah, it was supposed to dump on us. Yeah, 73. It was supposed to dump on us on at the game last night. It didn't. That was another win. >> Tell us. >> He's my guy and I love Korea. So excited for this episode. You love Korea. Well, the Koreans are destroying our markets right now. Their index got hit hard overnight and I think that led to some of the contagion that we're seeing.

>> Yeah, >> guys. As always, the weather's powered by our friends at Relay. Easy way to swap tokens across multiple chains from one UX. Better UX for you users. Start swapping seamlessly at relay.link. Let's get into the markets. I know this is what you guys want to hear about. Before we do, let me tell you about dinari, our tokenized equities partner. Trade SpaceX on Hyperlquid spot and more. Visit dinari.com to learn more. And it's right out there. Near is back under that $2 mark. Chain link under that 750 or 7.75 8 mark. Salana had like this coordinated shilling over the weekends and I knew that that was a bad sign. Like I knew

that was a bad sign. It was so obvious like oh gosh why are we doing this to ourselves? Why are we shilling Salana? We're going to get punished for this. It's kind of like the same thing with Ethereum. It's like why are we shilling Ethereum? We're going to get punished for this. Oh, Ethereum's outperforming. Salana's outperforming. Oh, we're going to get punished. And that is what happened ladies and gentlemen. We are getting punished for our sins and Bitcoin is just barely holding the lows. >> Yeah, feels like uh it's make it or break it time here for markets in general, Bitcoin included. I mean, you know, half the half the the ecosystems calling bottom, the other half is calling for 40k.

>> Yeah. So, we probably just stay here and chop for a little while. People get very apathetic. stay off the three L's and uh just stay patient. >> Yeah, >> we're gonna look on these uh these opportunities to buy down here. It's going to be >> like a like a blessing, but obviously can't get chopped up and uh we're talking, you know, patient time horizons. >> Uh so difficult market conditions right now, but obviously I mean the these are these are opportunities at these levels. >> Yeah, I mean I agree. I think we'll look back in this time period with like a sense of joy, a sense of happiness, uh, gratitude, but yeah, you have to have the ability to not get wiped out and to be buying at

low levels. Equities as well, tech had a bit of a riskoff. Uh, I believe the NASDAQ's down a bit today. Um, S&P only down a percent. Um, NASDAQ's down 3%. So that was not that was not what the Bitcoin believers wanted to see. [gasps] Um and yeah, I mean dollar is moving back up. So I don't I don't even have a read right now other than protect protect protect and uh I still think this like I still think it's as simple as this high quality token revenue generating good token economics. It's not going to be not volatile. It's going

to be volatile for sure. But I do think it's still that simple. So >> yeah, I think this is I mean we've been saying it, but this is where kind of men are separated from the boys. Winners and losers are you know this decoupling feels like it's the most possible era to separate because things are decorated from one another. And so you know right now everything's sort of chopped but you also have these spurts of speculative movement, right? We kind of saw that from Aer Drrome. we, you know, hype Zcash near VVV like had that speculative kind of, you know, uh, momentum and so I feel like there's kind of these pockets of momentum and it is rotating because

people are looking for something in order to like, you know, kind of rotate into, but it's nothing is sustainable. Nothing is catching a sustainable bid until I think until we until the macro environment improves. um until you know whether that be equities, macro, Kevin War, the war, everything. You know, you can kind of attribute the macro environment to to a variety of different things. But generally, um now is when if you can catch some of those pockets of momentum, you're going to do okay, but that's a risky endeavor. Uh so probably >> yeah I think I know longer term play is more of like the zoom out the allocate slowly >> dollar cost average just build long-term positions here.

>> Yeah and and I continue to be of the belief um if your time horizon is correct that building some of the positions in the tickers the companies that have ex have been performing best up to this point are the ones that are going to outperform later on down the road. We're gonna get the speculative memecoin, new coin, good coin type of fervor as well. But I can't help but think, you know, in the next cycle, let's just call it that. I think the four-year cycle is alive. Call it the next cycle. >> Zcash is going to do well. Hyperl's going to do well. Near's going to do well. All the coins going to do well.

>> Lighter's going to do well. Aird drum is going to do well. Even unis swap is going to do well because they have revenue as well. Some of these things are going to outperform others because well, you know, they're either undervalued or overvalued relative to their fundamentals. But I think all those things that we just listed off, those are the things with fundamentals. And so, yes, maybe they're not catching this bid right now. But when you do have this expansionary tailwind, >> these are the things that are >> in position to outperform. >> As always guys, our markets are powered by our friends at Zama. Visit zama.org to learn more about their confidential private transactions on chain. And let's keep it rolling into the news. We got a bunch of stuff to cover for you guys. Uh before we do, let me tell you about

Near, your home for building, discovering, and using apps on chain. One account, no borders. Your financial life all on chain. [screaming] Absolutely crushing it with near.com. Here we go. Samsung Mau predicts that Adam 3, which is Adam Beck, will not be able to deploy the 1.5 billion from the spa merger to acquire 23,000 Bitcoin or so. >> Yeah. He's he's saying that he was wrong. That was a previous prediction that he made. And so Adam Back has a uh >> Adam Back is notoriously like a super OG Bitcoiner. People thought that he was Satoshi. There's still people that think that he is Satoshi. He's doing a lot of things that make me think he is not.

However, he is been he's been extremely instrumental in both uh Bitcoin core development as well as the Bitcoin mining scene. uh he is working on a spa merger that would give him control of a Bitcoin treasury company in Caner Equity Partners. Uh they will decide on this spa combination that would bring Adam back uh his Bitcoin standard treasury company public as BSTR. And so there is a new micro strategy on the street. Adam Back has been in the game a long long time. They already have 30,000 Bitcoin as a result of Adam Back's mining endeavors. That puts them at number five in the corporate

leaderboard of how much Bitcoin these companies own. He will raise an additional 1.5 billion dollars. If this vote goes live and passes, that would put him at in position to acquire another 23,500 Bitcoin. Samson Mau in this tweet says that he was thinking that Adam back would have to buy higher. However, Bitcoin prices are still at these lower levels, giving him the opportunity to get in at a lower average entry than Michael Sailor and acquire 23,500 Bitcoin, billion half dollars worth. And that would raise his total to 53,500 coins. Still quite a bit lower than the amount that Sailor and Strategy have.

But it is $1.5 billion in buying power. Andy, the other thing that I want to mention here, and this is based on the conversation that we had with a partner of the show in the tower, is that a $ 1.5 billion dollars, look, it's a lot of money, but it might not meaningfully move the price of Bitcoin on first first go. No, >> what I think is important to keep in mind is that we remove 23,500 Bitcoin off of the liquid order book out there in the supply of Bitcoin that is being traded back and forth. This means this would be added to the total of of already 30,000 Bitcoin that Adam back has. You combine this with straight

strategies, stockpile, the amount that Tesla has and sovereigns have and the US government has and all these treasury companies have and a lot of Bitcoin is no longer out there for sale. This is the same that is going on with all these treasury companies. Maybe the cash that they're plowing into this asset doesn't have a meaningful impact on the price right now. >> Yep, I totally agree. But you end up with these supply constraints. And if you do get macro tailwinds and you do get a rising tide, that ultimately prints more liquidity, that liquidity is going to find these assets. And if there's no longer supply to meet the demand and the liquidity in these assets, you're going to end up with

these supply constraints, supply shocks, whatever you want to call them. And that is when I think we could really see some volatility to the upside. And so again, stay patient, build positions, not financial advice, but if you can maintain patience and positioning, I think you're going to be in a good spot here for the ultimate rise of volatility when the next cycle resumes. >> Yeah, I agree. I think it's a very it's a very like it's an additive to a bullish market thing. We can still have a turbo nuke across the board. >> Yeah.

>> And honestly, seemingly more and more likely as the days go on. Obviously, it's a red day today, so you're saying that today, but like, you know, it's just kind of part of the part of the part of the process here, guys. And yeah, I mean, these things are amplifiers of the bull trend, not necessarily uh reduction of the bare trend. I I suppose >> and I mean, you can look at examples in the marketplace. Think about uh like what's happening with SpaceX right now. low float, low low float >> getting so low liquidity, low float is a factor that is going to lead to high volatility. And you know, we're cryptonatives. So the way I learned, and

there's I'm sure people learned this lesson a million different ways, but the way that I learned this was through LPing into AMMs. Yeah. So, right you you know the playbook is like okay well if this thing has low liquidity it the AMM is going to move sharply in happens in both directions. And if you move sharply and then you add liquidity at whatever new price point there is it's going to stabilize the price because less impact relative to the entire balance of the pool is going to take place. And I think that is what's happening right now is we're seeing supply get taken off. We're going to see increased volatility. And I think that could happen to the downside first. It could happen to the upside later, but nevertheless, we're going to

see more volatility as the liquidity and the supply on the marketplace shrinks. And I think that is that's just something to watch and be careful of. >> A great segue. Let's get into the next piece because we got people in the chat saying we got JB BMR looking appealing for once as is ETH. And then I said, you know, like so is ESP actually. Um, you know, they uh, ESP's trading at Sharp's trading at a 33% discount. >> No way. >> And like compared to their amount of ETH >> in their in Yeah. Their E or their ETH in NAV. And then you sent something today uh, from one of the PR people, I think,

right? About >> if we want to get Shalom on. But what was the news though? >> Joe Shalom and Sharplink have a couple things that are happening. Uh obviously uh we saw ETH Labs. Congratulations to ETH Labs and everyone who's involved there. We're very very excited about this new organization in the Ethereum ecosystem. And we have on the screen here sort of this uh scaling back of the EF. Vitalic also posted a tweet today talking about some of the difficult decisions that the EF has been facing. Um in summary, TLDDR is that Ethereum has reduced its uh headcount by about 20%. That is what has already happened.

That is not what is going to happen. Also, they decided to cut the expenditure from the of the EF by 40%. And so, the EF is scaling back significantly. What I think is important for people to understand that I did not realize until I spoke with some of the people at ETH Labs is that the Ethereum Foundation has a principle of subtraction. What that means is that they had a very outsized influence on the Ethereum ecosystem when it first launched. You know, Ethereum Foundation, they had an Ethereum ICO. There was like all of this centralized coordination to get Ethereum off the ground. The most influ influential that EF ever was was at the beginning and they have scaled

down continuously over time as a result of this principle of subtraction. they want to get less and less influential in the ecosystem. And so all these things about people and saying that the EF was disorganized and discombobulated and didn't know what it was doing. Well, it was scaling back intentionally. We know that now. And I think communication could have been a little bit more articulated a little bit better. But ultimately, we know what is happening now. They have this principle of subtraction. And it ultimately opens the door for new organizations to take what they feel like is a more opinionated path for Ethereum and stewarding the ecosystem forward. E Labs is doing that from an R&D perspective. Bit mine and and Sharplink are doing that from an

investor relations perspective. And these companies are driving the ecosystem forward and they're they're picking up where the EF left off and I think the EF is going to continuously continue to scale back. And so Sharlink in particular um >> yeah so let me tell you about the sharp link news sharp link news. So basically they announced a $75 million registered direct offering priced at approximately 41% premium to the last closing share price. So um basically it was a it was quoted at 7.49 the last closing share price was 5.29 29. And basically, it means that whoever invests in this deal gets no upside

unless the price of ESB gets above the warrant strike of $8.15 or the stock goes above the premium that they paid. So, that's like it's unlikely that ESB's going to, you know, do more dilution down here and buy more ETH or dilute their shareholders. and they used the proceeds of this offering, the $75 million to buy more ETH rather than buying their own shares. So, I thought that was interesting. Maybe not sure. I mean, I I see a tweet here from DCF god talking about it. He would have preferred that they went and actually bought their own stock rather than buying >> ETH because they're under NAV.

>> Way under. Yeah. And then also they obviously led the funding of ETHLabs them and Bit Miner. And so when you look at ESBAT and I mean this thing is it's at all time lows. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> You know you know I'm I mean it's basically since when it launched it's at all time lows. I mean this thing is at $5ish trade all the way up to 120. Um and then Bitmine kind of the same same kind of setup. It's down to 15. So >> embarrassing.

>> [laughter] >> So yeah, I mean guys, I don't really know if I agree with DCF God here. I think this is great news. We might get Shalom on to talk about it. It was a great episode last time. You guys seem to like it. Got a ton of views, ton of good comments. But then also at the same time, like a lot of these Ethereum conversations right now, you have these these people in the comments just saying like ETH's worthless. It's no better than any other chain, yada yada yada. So >> I mean >> kind of an interesting state for ETH right now. I just it it's a shame to see comm sentiment so low, but I mean saying it's just another chain and I saw someone else I think it was our friend Simon from Moonrock just talking about how you know picking up the pieces of

what's left of Ethereum. Like we're talking about the chain with the most stable coins. We're talking about the chain with the most RWA. It's been around the longest. It has the most Lindy. It has the most resilient infrastructure. It has the largest computer or excuse me uh contributor uh development uh uh set. I mean there's just >> so many things that Ethereum still has. I get it. The growth has decelerated. Maybe it has diminished in recent times, but I I mean people are disillusioned with maybe the the uh depreciation of ETH the asset as of late. Haven't really seen that from Ethereum, you know, the chain and the protocol. It's still

leading on several metrics. The only thing that I think you can take if you're worried about another chain taking market share from ETH hasn't been Salana. Maybe you could argue Canton and maybe you could argue Hyperlid. I think Hyperlid is going after something fundamentally different. I think Canton, maybe you could make an argument has taken some market share in terms of institutional uh settlement volume. But in general, I think we're we're we haven't really seen Ethereum uh lose market share within the crypto world.

It's just that the crypto pie has shrunk as a result of of market conditions broadly. So, >> y >> look, maybe I'm controlling. I'm still bullish Ethereum. >> And I say Ethereum, not necessarily ETH the asset. That remains to be seen. We'll see what happens. I'm kind of neutral, no opinion on ETH the asset. But when it comes to Ethereum, the chain, I'm still mega bullish. Yeah. All right, guys. Let's keep it rolling here into the next piece for you. Let me tell you about Infinifi. Building DeFi infrastructure for simpler access to onchain yield, liquidity, capital allocation, higher yields, no leverage, all onchain. Visit infinifi.xyz.

Tokenizing 1% of the global stock market could bring trillions of dollars on chain. Carlos Domingo breaks breaks down the path to get there. So, Carlos is the CEO of Securitize. He's arguing that 1% of the one trill 100 trillion $150 trillion global stock market could move more than $1 trillion as assets on chain. Um obviously securitizes going forward into their public offering SECZ a spa coming onto the stock market soon. So again more public offerings for crypto companies. We actually love to see that. Let's keep it rolling. Let's go and play this video because I think that we generally agree here.

I think tokenized stocks and ETFs if you think about it from a size perspective is probably the biggest opportunity because just the New York Stock Exchange that we recently announced that the partnership for they're going to be trading tokenized stocks 24/7 you know if 1% of that move it's $4 trillion it just kind of triples the size of the crypto industry today 1% is nothing now which one is going to be the first like mega company that is going to go and say I'm going to tokenize is going to be Tesla it's going to be Nvidia a couple that then when you get the first then getting the second is easier the third the 10th 100 and then that's when it explodes, right? I think tokeniz >> I mean this guy's right. Um tokenization doesn't need to replace global markets to become massive. It just needs to have

a tiny share and that's kind of like what we're seeing. That's also this bold thesis for um all these DeFi protocols that we've been talking about whether it's Hyperlquid or aerodrome or uh Backpack and Wormhole and whoever else right all these the bull thesis is they've achieved a certain amount of product mass by trading crypto assets. Now they're going to go out and trade every tokenized equity, every tokenized commodity, and any possible instrument on chain with some decent liquidity, leverage against it, borrow against it, collateralize these things. It's like that's still the same thesis what Carlos is talking about. Still the same thesis

for our D5 protocols that you know and love. Don't have much else to add on this. I think the next one is pretty interesting as well. Last thing I'll add on Carlos and what he's saying about tokenization is that um we heard from the CEO and co-founder of Anchorage Digital yesterday about how even if about the potential new use cases here growing the Pi, what is currently possible in offchain, yes, you can tokenize and you can remove a ton of idle cash from the system. You can make that productive and you can ultimately reduce overhead earnings. you can pass a lot of these savings and a lot of this capital back to end users or it can end up in flowing into asset prices uh as a more productive use of capital rather

than just sitting in cash. The other thing that we heard that tokenization can do is it can enable use cases that are previously non-existent. And I think that is something that Carlos would agree with here is that as you collateralize tokenize fractionalize you can do all of these things that are currently not possible. And so you could say tokenizing 1% of the global stock market. Sure. You could say it doesn't need to replace any traditional markets to become enormous. Even a small share of global equities moving on chain would create a trillion dollar asset class. Sure. Even if you don't replace global equities, even if you just add functionality on top of the existing equity market, the existing capital markets, you can still have this massive

industry just with this enablement, this this added functionality. And and so if you have, you know, think about the pie right now, obviously tokenization is going to try to get some market share of that pie. But if you just grow the pie, that is also uh that is also going to add trillions of dollars of of potential market share. >> Agreed. And that's kind of like the Yeah, that is the breakthrough that's going to happen. And it's going to happen so fast, too, with the banks issuing stable coins and the amount of these assets tradable on chain. next cycle is going to look so different than this previous one because of just like the size that comes. And look, let's let's move on to this next one. I I think uh people will enjoy this one from

CZ here uh and his takes on on Hyperlid because I think it's a it's a it's a very uh hot topic and a debatable one about decentralization. Um so H you know CZ is crediting Hyperlquid for building a strong product and succeeding in the no KYC perpetual markets that centralized exchanges cannot easily serve. you know, he mentions that Jeff was part of the early incubation and basically he doesn't really believe that it's decentralized and he has some thoughts on on what they're doing and it's kind of an interesting conversation.

>> They occupy a niche that Binance exchange cannot compete. I would never do what they do given what I've experienced in my life. >> I want to ask about Hyperlid. It's one of the few actually positive coins in return this year here to date, but also obviously a big and growing platform. It sits somewhere, I would say, more decentralized than Binance, although less decentralized than like unis swap as an example. Somewhere in the middle. Have you met Jeff? What are your thoughts on Hyperlid? >> So, we have some interesting history with Hyperlid that I didn't know about with Jeff specifically. I never met him in person. He was actually in one of the earliest easy labs incubation seasons.

So, I assume he's a very smart young kid and he obviously very capable. Some long history there. And also I think the hyperlquid invention is actually awesome. He proved a new market niche that was not proven by other people before. So he created something new which is very interesting. Apparently he has a very small team. I'm sure that team is very capable. They occupy a niche that Binance the exchange cannot compete. They don't have KYC. They claim they're decentralized. Again I'm not going to comment on another project. Based on the technology we see this they have a lot of control. It's a small team that controls the platform. They use a smart contract for deposit and withdrawals. That claim that's decentralized. I'm not going to get into the definition of it. That's not my place. But they serve a niche where look in the US if you have a VPN you can use

it right so everybody knows that they have pretty decent volumes and they are able to service many users that Binance cannot serve which again it's not in my place to comment whether that's good or not they have some technology innovation that I think is quite good >> I mean just since you raised it too the history of no KYC crypto exchange is filled with people getting in trouble for that should they be worried >> I would never do what they do given what I've experienced in my life but I'm not a legal person I cannot give other people advice I assume they have good lawyers they're making a lot of So, I assume they're big boys. They handle themselves. >> What is your read on that, Rob?

>> Um, I think CZ's scared. I think he first uh he first, you know, kind of cuts cuts Hyperlid down by saying, "Look, they have like a smart contract for deposits and withdrawals, but then he he can't help but admit that they have some technological innovations." And I think it's more true in that what he said the sec in the latter part of that clip, which is that they've got more than just a smart contract with deposits and withdrawals. They've been able to orchestrate and create a very technologically innovative platform that has, you know, builder codes. It's got deep penetration into the per market.

It's been able to succeed where others haven't. There is a reason for that and it's because of the competency of Jeff and the team. And I think that worries CZ. I think he also makes some good points about no KYC. And I think in the Gary Gendler era, Jeff would have been tormented and hyperlift would would not have been possible. However, I think because of the friendliness of, you know, Paul Atkins, Hester Pur, the CFTC chair, all of these guys are extremely extremely favorable uh towards perpetuals. And I think that is supporting Jeff and is somewhat against uh CZ. So I think CZ is scared. I think what he's saying here is that uh Jeff uh

essentially has the opportunity to do something that CZ never would have been able to do and never would have attempted to do. And I think that is going to create some competitive market conditions. U but I do think CZ is obviously a smart and capable person in and of himself. And I think he he points out some potential risk factors for Jeff and for Hyperlid because the regulatory risk is real. I think also it is not at >> decentralization is a spectrum. We've talked about that at length on this show and and Galaxy uh host interviewer, you know, presents this perfectly. It's not as decentralized as unis swap. It's not as centralized as Binance. It is somewhere in the middle. And I think Jeff and team is going to have to figure out where they sit so that they can they

can more uh completely serve this niche. But I think they have been able to kind of tow the line up until now. And the more open-minded that the regulators are, the longer that they can stay patient and wait before choosing whether they're centralized or decentralized. They effectively have the leverage here because of the friendly regulation environment. They can kind of sit back and use the benefit of hindsight and patience to feel where this regulation regime is going and then react accordingly. And they are now in a position where they can choose, you know, do we go in a more decentralized route, add more validators, kind of take a more progressive path to decentralization, right? Or do they take

a more centralized path? And they can even potentially do this do both paths depending on which jurisdiction they want to pursue. So this is this is ultimately where we want to get to. But I do think CZ is feeling the heat. They're taking market share and I think Hyperlid also has proven the model on the tokconomics side. >> New type says CZ is definitely jealous. >> Yeah, >> I agree. Although their advantage comes from operating where centralized exchanges can't, right? And that same positioning of the decentralization and regulatory risk is going to have to be solved in the future at some point. The question is when and how. [snorts] Um and and and and kind of how does that affect your trading

thesis? How does that affect your positioning, etc. This is for you guys to figure out. Uh for us, I mean, I yeah, the fact that this question was even asked and CZ had an answer like that, I think speaks volumes as to where we're at in the market structure for these things. So, I'm going to leave it at that. We're going to keep it rolling, guys. Into our next news. Before we do, let me tell you about LeFi building infrastructure for crosschain swaps, bridging, and routing across the onchain economy. Visit lead.py to explore smoother crosschain swaps and execution for your assets. All righty guys, five former Ethereum Foundation researchers have launched ETHLabs or an independent nonprofit focused on preparing ETH for institutional adoption at scale. Hard to

be anything but bullish on this guys. Um I feel like they are actually focused on number go up for ETH on institutional adoption on getting people to buy ETH at scale here in New York and globally Sydney, Hong Kong, Singapore, London, Paris, New York, LA, Miami, these big regions where there's big capital. I feel like these guys care about that stuff. I feel like it's hard to be anything but bullish on this. Um Aentic Finance, larger scale DeFi, tokenization. Uh this is happening. I don't really think it changes anything in the thesis. Doesn't change anything in the technicals. Clearly technicals are going to be technical no matter what.

>> I think it will though. I think these ETH Labs contributors, the five former EF researchers um have held uh roles in the research and development teams at the EF where they actually worked on EIP and shipping features to the Ethereum protocol. Now, I think they're going to be contributing their intellectual resources to Ethereum products. And I wouldn't be surprised if we see Ethereum branded products live from ETH Labs. So, that could mean like an ETH wallet. That could mean like, you know, and there's already a lot of these things that exist out there, but I think this team is going to be focused on shipping products

that are Ethereum aligned and focused on, you're right, number go up technology. >> All right, guys. Guys, let's get into our daily equity before we got Cory Clipstein up. We're going to go real quick here and then we're going to talk stretch because I know you guys want to hear about micro strategy uh and more. So, let's get into the daily equity powered by our friends atari. Quick one here and then we're going to go straight into Corey. Talk about micro strategy stretch and more. Stick with us. It's going to be a good segment. Let's go. [music] Crypto traders are now stock traders.

Updates from the SEC below par for STRC and more. Link is in the post. Coinbase is rolling out one to one backed US equities for non US users with dividends voting rights 24/7 and DeFi composability and more. Uh crypto traders are stock traders. Let's go ahead and scroll down a little bit just to get an understanding here. uh in this video or in this image here of tokenized stock issuers uh and what it looks like for uh each of these providers. So you got securitizo xtocks and coinbase. You see the tokenization method securitiz direct issuance with the chain ando 1:1 back SPV held shares via structured notes

one backed SPVH held shares via a tracker certificate. Coinbase is undisclosed and their tokenization partner I think was Centrifuge. Yeah. Announced I believe so. So guys, I mean just to make a quick point here, you need to understand what you're actually buying when you're trading these tokenized equities. Obviously, this is powered by our friends at dinari. They also have a native direct tokenization uh format which is very similar to uh uh securitizes actually a little bit more I would say polished. I mean obviously could be biased there but it's quite it's quite uh it's quite literally the direct full ownership in a beneficiary account KYC in a sub brokerage uh to your name on it. So you get a guaranteed onetoone ownership of these equities.

Ono X stocks do not p do not provide that same level but there's also advantages to having this wrapper model and then Coinbase is still kind of TBD. So guys I would just say in this segment it's important to understand what you're buying. You must know the differences between the tokenization types. We have several videos on this. We'll continue to talk about it. Make sure you understand what you're buying when you're buying tokenized equities. That wraps our daily equity segment for today, Rob. And we're going to flow into Corey. Cory Clips is the CEO of Swan, a massive Bitcoin company. Uh last time we he was on the show, we were having fun talking about what is coming for Swan, potential IPOs and more. But I mean, guys, can't help but to think about what the hell is going on with with Stretch, Micro Strategy, and more. I think that's

where we start. I think that's where we're going to end up. So, we're going to get Cory up on the show, and he's going to tell us his opinions. Sometimes unfiltered, unbiased, and purely purely dialed because Micro Strategy is in trouble right now. >> Oh, certainly is. >> What is Stretch trading at here? 87.88. All right, let's get Cory up. We're going to start with Stretch and figure out where we're at here. Uh get the show started. Corey, what's going on, man? And what the hell is happening out there?

>> First of all, in as much as I might be an expert in anything, it's Bitcoin, not stons. So, let's start there. Uh so, you'll get you'll get basically regurgitation of lots of things that I've read and lots of things I've heard from other people, but this is not how I spend my day. That said, I talk to a lot of people and I read a lot. So, >> yeah, you know, I'm sure you do. I mean, more just like >> what the hell is your opinion of of Micro Strategy as of June 23rd? Like your personal take?

>> Uh, well, I would say if you were going to rate if if like 10 out of 10 was maximum freakout, uh, and that was indexed to the depths of like 22 and 23. >> Yeah. bare market for strategy. We're still at like a three or a four on that scale of 10. Uh, you know, there's tons of believers out there. There's tons of people that kind of understand functionally that a leverage Bitcoin equity and LBE actually does make sense. uh you probably get tripped up if you believe some of the marketing languages rather than what's actually described in the filings and the

disclosures. And that's probably where you see some of the people getting upset because you know a perpetual preferred equity is not digital credit. That's a term of art and it's a marketing thing and they actually are fairly careful to explain the difference and that it's just convenient to talk about it that way. Um, you know, I think there were marketing oversteps for sure talking about this in comparison to money markets or savings accounts and things like that. I, you know, I think they'll deservely take a lot of lumps for the AI generated ads about getting rich on, you know, safe securities, whatever. Uh, I think I think it was a mistake to

welcome the shady offshore crypto DeFi folks into the fold and put them on stage at Strategy World and encourage looping leverage on [clears throat] stretch in DeFi. Like I think that's going to be that's going to end up being a disaster. >> Basically like it's an if this it's an if then statement. If it takes off then it will blow up. >> Yeah. [laughter] you know, that's so so why would you chase that particular thing? I'd rather do stuff, you know, kind of onshore. Um, you know, one thing that I think also was probably a bit of an overstep, and this is didn't come from strategy. It came from some of the other treasury commentators was it does make sense to trench returns in

general. So, it does make sense to say, hey, I'm going to take uh leverage through a perpetual preferred and that will make the equity levered up by, you know, 1.2x or something. And that's what MSTR is. And so, if that's well-managed and the costs are kept low, it's essentially like, you know, 1.2x or 1.3x ETF, more or less. And that that actually does make sense because that compounds and you could own a lot more Bitcoin per share over time. So, that functionally that makes sense. It's not easy to figure out how to do that or lots of people would do it. But as we know in in normal ETF land, it's basically impossible to track the

asset perfectly on leverage, which is why, you know, 2x oil ETF or, you know, 3x short Tesla or whatever it is, these are actually hedging tools. They're not buy and hold tools. So it is a bit of alchemy to to come up with a structure uh where you're trying to have perpetual leverage uh on on an underlying asset. So it will always have to be pretty actively managed and you'll have to be creative and you'll have to be good at marketing and you'll have to you know both encourage competition to some degree so that it's not just you but also ward off competition because otherwise you know the demand goes somewhere else. So it is it is really a a very actively managed strategy by

definition. It can't just kind of sit there and exist because things will just break and you have to react to to things going on in the market at the time. Uh where I thought there was as I was getting to a pretty big overstep recently and this is the only only thing that I've really commented on um you know as being kind of over the line. I'm actually okay with them calling stretch digital credit um again as as a term of art, not an actual description of what it is because that's not what it is. Um but when you started to talk about trenching stretch and saying, "Hey, we'll have a lower interest product that is principal protected that has a lower interest rate." Uh and maybe that's 7% or something like that. And I think

they're already doing this with a couple of DeFi tokens. Um, but you'll see this soon in in normal securities land in the US as well. And then there would be an equity trench essentially that takes the leverage provided by the people that have the principal protected senior trench. And then the junior trench has higher expected returns but a lot of volatility. And that's who would be sucking up the principal risk when it drops from 100, you know, the the attempted peg down to 87 and, you know, etc. They'll they'll make that yield back, you know, if it zooms up toward 100. And you know they're also getting the excess from the 7% or whatever that goes into the that's the the guaranteed return guaranteed return um for the senior trunch and they get the delta between that and levered up. So it

should be something like you know if you took >> I I didn't didn't they just raise the dividend again? I didn't see what they raise it to. Did it just go to 11.5 >> or >> I believe so. I believe it's been and then now at the current price of stretch obviously the yield is significantly higher because you're pricing in a rep as well. >> Yeah. I mean you can't actually call this a PEG of any kind either. Uh maybe management target. >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. So, I've been say I've been always very careful to put, you know, peg, rep, and DPEG in quotation marks anytime I write about this stuff because [snorts] you can't actually control these things particularly well. Uh, but what I was

going to say is I did see somebody actually run the math and it does, you know, when it was 11.25, 25. So similar for 11.5, but it should do something like, you know, 7% on the senior trench would result in a very volatile 16% on the equity trench or the the junior trench. Um, as we know though from all the blowups uh leading up to the GFC and then basically causing the GFC back in, you know, 0708. Uh, the senior trench just because it is marketed and described as principal protected that doesn't mean that it actually necessarily is because if you zero out the equity trench above it and it and it goes to to nil, then you eat into the

returns of the senior trench. And that's what you saw with CLOS's and, you know, all these mortgage back securities and everything. You know, they thought the AAA trench was, you know, super protected because there's all these junior securities above it, but they all zeroed out and then you ate into the the principle of the AAA trench, too. >> Yep. >> So, look, there's risk in this stuff. And I think there's a lot of people that are in this market that were like born after Liars Poker was published, >> you know, but my generation like we all we all read Liars Poker and we all read Fiasco and we all like it was just kind of expected that you would understand financial plumbing and you would understand the origin of all these securities and trenching and IO's and

POS and CLOS's and CBOS and MBS and all these things. you know, if you were kind of interested in finance in the 80s, 90s, 2000s, there's like there's a maybe I should put together the cannon of you need to read to understand what you're seeing on Twitter and the things that people are saying because if you don't have a background in the stuff, you know, you're just you're just clicking blind. the there's a theory out there among people that strategy needs to blow up in order for Bitcoin to kind of recover back to, you know, 100k and and higher.

Are you in the camp? Are you in that camp? Are you in the camp where strategy is it beyond the point of no return or do you think strategy can figure out it >> they don't even have to figure anything out? They just need to not blow up and Bitcoin price will go up as it always does inevitably as more and more of the eight billion people on Earth understand what it is and that it's better than everything else as far as money and the price just naturally goes up in adoption waves. So, you know, it there's nothing they need to do other than just not completely f it up and try to turn all the little dials. There's, you know, 50 different things that you can do 1% better. And if you nail most of them, then you're you're slightly better. But sitting on a huge pile of Bitcoin with

some leverage that's responsibly managed and the thing is obviously well marketed. They're they're good at marketing. >> Um and Sailor is, you know, a generational salesman. You know, my favorite kind of uh engineer archetype salesman. I've been been around a lot of these guys in my life and uh they they're they're a special breed to have the ability to talk to people and and sell visions and come up with terms of phrase but also have a deep engineering background. Like it's it's fantastic when somebody is good at it.

>> And so if you're Michael Sailor right now, what do you do in order to make sure that strategy doesn't blow up? Well, they don't have to do anything. They It really >> They don't have to sell Bitcoin. They don't have to sell Micro Strategy shares to raise cash. They don't have to do anything. >> Well, no, they they they did just sell Micro Strategy shares to raise cash. >> And, >> you know, and on on their metrics, the way that they look at MNAV, uh, and that's debatable. um you know it's it's they have a little bit of a have your cake and eat it too situation where they add the value of Stretch and then um you know the market cap of Stretch basically

and that's where they see what their MNAV is. Uh but they're also calling it digital credit and usually what you would do if you actually think it's digital credit then you would subtract it but but I get that it's because it's they they never have to pay back the principal on stretch and so that's why they they add it. So, you know, they're they're on, you know, strategy adjusted MNAV or whatever. It's like 1.14, which is below their target of where they didn't want to hit the ATM, but, you know, they did they did hit the ATM last week and they built up or this week, I don't know, whenever that was. I think they just announced it yesterday, and they topped up their cash reserve. And, you know, I I don't there is no existential risk to strategy right now

at all. uh short of Bitcoin like plummeting to 20K, which would put them under a lot of pressure for lots of reasons. >> Yeah, Corey. Um I think the the government, the US government just put out some quantum dominance. I mean, I don't know. I saw a banner of Trump's face with big text that said quantum dominance on it. Um >> uh well he also said uh something about quantum cryptography. Does anybody know what this means? As he was signing it.

Um so he made this little joke like he has no idea what he's talking about as usual with these things. Um but my guess is it's probably something about more investment in quantum. It's probably just money being funneled toward certain companies and research labs. That's that's probably the announcement. >> Yeah. And so as you're looking at what what we have in front of us in terms of the circumstances for Bitcoin here, you know, people are considering quantum, they're considering strategy as some of the systemic risks. And I think generally it's just a prioritization of people you know what is happening in their mind as far as you know what are the things that we can work on right here right now that is going to help us you know take control of the Bitcoin

narrative and ultimately help more people get educated get help more people get you know smart and realize the opportunity that still exists here for Bitcoin and so if you're kind of you know giving us some insight into your own mind how you think about this what is sort of the one two three highest prioritization items that we can help people understand as far as you know as it relates to Bitcoin right now. We've already >> Yeah. So, look, first first let me caveat this by saying that narrative follows price. Price does not follow narrative. And so, we'll Monday evening quarterback this thing later and say what it was that drove the Bitcoin price. But I promise you, it's not any of these things. These are just things that people talk about. And just like we

we call if we know a stock well and you see the journal write about it or the times write about it and you're like they don't know what they're talking about. That's the same thing around quantum and strategy and all these things. Like people need an excuse because they've gotten their clients into things and they have to tell them, you know, whose fault it is that it's not 300K yet. Um, that said, now on the second part of what you just kind of launched into, what can you actually do to to help adoption, which also spurs price, I think the narrative that is staring us in the face and the real risk to people is basically uh the encroachment of government. It's Leviathan coming with with CBDC's and

with uh age verification which by definition means ID tying to your social accounts in the UK VPN bans coming in Utah and uh parts of the EU in the UK. Um you know big ramp up in talks coming out of G7 about digital euro and digital ID. And so really this is a a freedom sovereign money sovereign human moment in time and it's dramatically accelerated just in the last week. All of the stories that I just mentioned are from the last 7 days and I happened to be in London last week as the social media ban passed and so I

was there as people were reacting and I telling you most smart people you know mid-career have their head in the sand. they have kids, they don't even see it. Like you have to have a certain lens to understand what's actually going on. And that, you know, having to enter your ID to get access to Facebook, WhatsApp, Twitter, LinkedIn. I mean, they've got you. And they throw people in jail for mean tweets, >> right? So, you know, the UK is basically a, you know, a uh a place where you might want to own a little bit of Bitcoin and you'll probably want it in self-custody. You don't want to have to ask for permission to get your money.

It's kind of against the point. So, [snorts] I do think this is a great moment in time to market real onchain Bitcoin and tell people about it. And uh you know, it is dramatically different than ETFs. It's dramatically different than holding some MSTR stock. Uh and this is a great moment in time to make that case. The other thing and and I agree with you and I think you know some of some of the you know more advanced discussions around censorship both at a financial point of view and a uh technological point of view. It happens on the internet could happen to our money.

These these things are you know posing significant risks and people have taken them seriously to the extent where they've started and and you know feel free to push back on this. I'm sure you will if you if you think so. But there is this growing cohort where of a rotation from Bitcoin to Zcash because you know maybe not so much that the the risk of political censorship is is present but more so the risk of institutionalization is present and that could result from things like Micro Strategy and Sailor and this idea of like this cipher punk ethos getting co-opted in Bitcoin but still existing in Zcash. Do you prescribe to this? Do you think that, you know, Zcash has some fundamental uh strength in its privacy

technology that Bitcoin may be not as much? What where do you stand on this Bitcoin to Zcash both philosophical and financial rotation? [clears throat] >> Uh that was a coordinated pump by folks in SF. Uh there's nothing special about it. Like 99% of that is held on exchanges. It's just a meme. uh it's easy to move the price of something that is tiny uh a lot easier than to move something that is worth you know north of a trillion dollars. So no it's even among those projects like Monero is like way way way better than an insider pre-mined corporate coin that claims to be private. So, no, Zcash is trash

>> on Monero just cuz I from what I've heard is that there was like this IRS back door that got hacked, but maybe that's not or like the ring signatures weren't as secure as previously thought. >> Look, man, I spend absolutely no time on altcoins. I like I studied I studied altcoins for like a year in 2017 2018 and I saw what I needed to see like focus on Bitcoin. Look the the whole thing uh all altcoins trend towards zero in the long run in BTC terms no matter what. All 30 million of them always have. There's only three coins that have ever had a second all-time high in

Bitcoin terms out of 30 million uh after their first pump. Like you just don't need to spend time on this. It's trying to get into like a basket of cryptos like that's diversification, not diversification. These things are decentralized in name only. There's a handful [snorts] of proofof work projects that you know are interesting little experiment test beds or whatever, but their coins have 1 millionth or less of the hash rate of Bitcoin and they are just experiments and playgrounds and there's just there's no reason for them to ever like the the the battle for supremacy among digital assets was won way more than a decade ago and it's just people kind of woke up to it in late

2023, early 2024 and now there's basically unless you're on a crypto show. It never comes up. It doesn't come up with a single client. It doesn't come up with any mainstream media. It doesn't come up in Wall Street. It literally never comes up unless I'm on a crypto show. I never even banking panels, even if the other people on a panel, I just did this two weeks ago. Uh I was on with like three crypto infrastructure types, they're all Bitcoin maximalists, they know there's no thesis for altcoins, and they state it openly. And these are people that, you know, run crypto companies. And so I just think it's uh if you if you are still spending time, you know, thinking that holding some moon bags matters, no. If you're an

insider and you're getting it for like a tenth of a penny and you can dump it on somebody's head and you're morally fine with that, like you do you. There's plenty of scammers out there and it's not a big deal. Like there's there's people scamming on TV and in the White House constantly. So you know it's but that's what you're doing. >> So even this this concept of tokenization where there's a lot of like traditional financial institutions as they say that are you know working on tokenizing equities and maybe that can allow them to >> those are real world assets. That's not those aren't digital assets. Those are real world assets. You're literally just talking about recordkeeping. So I've said for a long time because I have a lot of friends that you know went and got like the Wharton blockchain certification and you know they they

want to be able to like still exist in polite company. So look I've been saying since 2019 that the inevitable end for crypto blockchain DeFi and the bullcase is to become part of tradi and that the bullcase is incremental improvements to digital IT. So, it's, you know, basically join the the Goldman IT department and and work on Rails and settlement and like that. And that's all they're doing. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that at all. There's very little white space now between Coinbase and Robin Hood and Erade. They all are just trying to be like retail liquidity venues and they want tokenized gold futures and altcoins and uh you know uh prediction markets and and some Bitcoin and some futures and all these different things, right? So, you know, if there's

a quibble there, it's really just about the overfinancialization of the economy, which is something that's been trending for a long time. And it's, you know, basically we're already at north of 20% of GDP is finance, which is non-productive, and historical baseline is like 5%. So, we are very much overleveraged in gambling, and this is part of the fiat Ponzi and money printing and all of that. And if I have a quibble with, you know, the Wall Street, crypto, DeFi, wanting to trade everything all the time, it's that, you know, if they succeed, then we go to like 40% of GDP is non-productive. And that's what they're aiming to do. And [snorts] then there's also some like,

you know, end of empire correlations where, you know, a populace that gets lazy and fat basically ends up focusing on uh gambling, sex, and food. And so that seems to be where we're at is, you know, I I I don't know when when you guys grew up watching ESPN, but you know, in the 90s and 2000s it was about sports and now it's all about, you know, the overunder and all the shows and all the ads. It's 100% gambling. And I just think that's where most of the stuff has gone is just is just people gambling on their phone and just kind of reacting to dopamine hits and kind of base instincts and you know so it's just like that's the quibble is kind of like it's it's not great for society but I'm also a big

freedom advocate and people should be able to do whatever the they want and who am I to judge you know so it's not like I not like everybody thinks that me playing basketball 6 hours a week at age 48 is productive. It's probably not. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. How tall are you, Cory? >> Uh, a little under 6'4. >> All right, there you go. [laughter] >> But I'm a point guard, which doesn't really like match well with pickup basketball. >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You gota Yeah. Yeah. Um, man, so just looking at the landscape here for for Bitcoin, I mean, kind of I'm going to get into the technicals a bit, which is there's this thesis of this logarithmic growth curve. actually a guy that I'm

sure that you're familiar with, Dave the Wave. He's got an amazing substack. He pretty much solely focuses on Bitcoin. Talks about the broad altcoin market cap, but rarely ever like individual tokens other than Bitcoin, maybe a little bit of Ethereum. A and obviously, you know, Bitcoin's just been following this logarithmic growth curve. And he calls it like a not necessarily like a price appreciation or like a uh you know, a kind of growth. He just calls that like the maturation of the asset class. and you know get into like the law of diminishing returns. And so just going forward like is your expectation for Bitcoin less volatility than in the past more like shorter shorter kind of speculative uh moves up and down and kind of like the or the ending of this

four-year dynamic that exists just like zooming out to this logarithmic growth curve of this price maturation and um h how do you think about what the future looks like from that perspective? Yeah. So, inevitably when you have large numbers, it's harder to move them by the same percentage. It takes a lot more capital to do that. And so, that's inevitably going to happen that as Bitcoin gets larger, the volatility smooths out. And that will naturally lead toward more and more people actually using it as a medium of exchange. Right? We're we're currently in the early stages still of Bitcoin as a store of value. There's three functions of money. uh it has to be a widely used store of value before it becomes a widely used medium exchange

and it'll have to be a widely used medium exchange before it becomes a widely used unit of account. So you can think of this as here let me try to do it this way. You can think of this as like three-staged Scurves where you'll be up the up the vertical part of the store of value Scurve before you even start at the inflection point from the bottom and start to see that adoption as medium of exchange and then it'll be another couple decades before you start to see Bitcoin start to take off as unit of account. Um my expectation for this is that Bitcoin fits the the model of a technological revolution. So this these are things that basically change all verticals. Uh you know historically the big four were all energy related like

steam power and like oil in the automobile. Uh the first one none energy was basically the information revolution. So you can think about that kind of starting in 1971 with the first chip rolling off an Intel fab in Silicon Valley. And I think AI is the latestage development of I don't think it's a new one. And I think it's the continued and kind of late stage full install of the information revolution. Uh if you're long in the tooth like me and started working uh professionally in the '9s, like we could used to call it big data, then we called it machine learning and then we started calling it AI, but it's actually just increased compute power um doing more and more cool So um I and these things take five to eight

decades. That's how long they take for full install. And I think that because Bitcoin faces uh competitors with very entrenched network effects uh in the dollar in particular, but fiat currencies generally. And there's obviously a lot of people with a lot of interest in keeping the printing press rolling for them and their friends in different countries. Um you know, I'd expect it to take toward the high end of that. So my ballpark estimate for full install where Bitcoin functions you know globally uh as as either the dominant or kind of up there next to the dollar uh for all three functions of money is like 2070 to 2080 >> 60 to 80 years after network launch. So

chill the out. Like it's going to take a minute. Uh, as for the four-year cycle meme, you know, it it probably shouldn't exist anymore except that people trade it and so it does. So, if you have friends that trade and they have, you know, fib Fibonacci lines on these stocks, like those only exist because people trade them. They're a popular meme and you can make money by by trading these bounce levels or treating them as resistance or whatever or support. and then other people do kind of the same thing because you're all drawing the same lines and you subscribe to the same data providers that provide the same things. And so it's just a thing, you know, it's it's very similar to just people looking at

volume charts and saying like, oh, a lot of volume traded at, you know, 68K, so that's resistance. Well, it's only because you all tweet about it and talk about it that that even matters for the most part. Um, so that's kind of what I expect. I just I expect it'll take a while to shed it, but I don't think that, you know, minor minor coins and their profitability, it's just so small compared to the total market now that we really ought to be done with four-year cycles. And I think it's really just the meme that makes it carry forward and still have some power.

But that's also why you're seeing the decreased amplification of the bull markets and the bare market pullbacks. So, it's just harder to move things in percentage terms as it's larger. >> Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense, Corey. And um I I want to maybe just drill into what and and it's so like you said, I mean, this is like a 70 to 80 year time horizon. So understandably it's difficult to see that through in terms of how that happens but as you think through the transition from a store of value asset to a unit of account asset. Obviously there's stable coins that are you know kind of getting some sort of adoption right now. I'm sort of the belief that you know we kind of have stable coins as

a stepping stone. You know there's some people that think you know we might go directly to this Bitcoin as this you know global reserve asset. Maybe you you hold that belief, but it seems to me that a dollar onchain tends to stay onchain, whereas a dollar offchain tends to stay offchain. And so, you know, getting this global population sort of accustomed to digital currency in the form of a stable coin could help the inevitable transition to Bitcoin as a global reserve asset. Just curious if you have any opinions on stable coins in their kind of current form and if you think that they could help, you know, this transition to Bitcoin as unit of account or or how you might see that happening.

>> Uh no, I think that's a narrative. Uh >> stable coins in general, >> stable stable coins are just digital dollars. We've had digital dollars forever and not forever but for decades. And this is just an extension of the dollar uh on new rails. I think the way that stable coins, which again are just digital records of dollars, they're extremely centralized, they're sensorable, they're confiscatable. Uh it's basically just a Hail Mary from the Fed to try to sell more treasuries.

So basically, think about like this. If sovereign demand for treasuries has declined and the governments are selling the treasuries uh then you have to replace that demand and the best way you can do that is to market dollars to the people themselves in all these countries where their governments used to hold treasuries. So it's it's just an attempt to keep the dollars uh network effect strong and to supply incremental demand for treasuries. Uh, as far as why you just repeated that narrative, that narrative was written for you by Coinbase and Circle and a little bit of Tether as a way to uh get the cooperation of the crypto bitcoin folks

to go along with the last election cycle basically, right? So it was over half of the donations in the last election cycle were from the crypto industry and they got what they wanted and nobody has to go to jail and they can keep on doing most of the things they wanted to do. And a big part of that was uh you know selling to their own you know basically jamming jamming stable coins through and jamming genius through uh and getting the support of crypto and bitcoin folks as they basically just did something for the the existing dollar network effect was this narrative of it's a gateway drug of some kind. But when you actually look at the neoank experiences that are spreading these, they're just calling it dollars. And in the fine print, it says

that it's like onchain or whatever, but it's purely centralized and it's happening in an app that looks like Cash App or Revolute or whatever. And you know, it's just not it's not how this thing is going to spread. I I fundamentally think that was all just a marketing narrative. >> Okay. And so then as we're thinking through the transition of Bitcoin and from a store of value asset to a unit of account asset typically >> medium of exchange first, right? Store of value, medium of exchange, then unit of account later. >> Got it. Okay. >> Unit of account being like you're actually pricing things in Bitcoin someday in the future >> and medium of exchange being like >> you're paying with Bitcoin.

>> Yep. And >> it's a current so currency right now. It's more of an investment. I I I see it as store value maps to investment, medium of exchange maps to currency and then you know unit of account is pricing >> denomination. >> And so as we're thinking through the steps in this sequence the way that I've sort of and this might be reductive just to put it in this like biodal like classifications but I've typically thought of this as like it can either be an evolution or a revolution. It can either happen like violently or it can happen peacefully. And I guess I I'm just curious if you if you think it is it that you know distinct one or the

other. Do you have an opinion if so like on one or the other is more likely as we trace through these steps? >> I think the far more likely case is kind of soft landing for the dollar and slow rise of Bitcoin over the coming decades where it just becomes more and more valuable. Uh and by the way, not the only horse in the race like I think gold continues to rise over the next 30 or 40 years too and then eventually Bitcoin starts to take a lot of share from gold. So I think it is kind of three [snorts] stores of value in the race. there's the the dollar and treasuries. Um, and kind of that's just like the western financial system. And then outside the financial system to some degree or you

could be Bitcoin is much better at it than gold because it's digital and not needing to be held in a vault. Um, but you have gold and Bitcoin in in that race as well. And you've seen, you know, I think uh when when gold was over 5,000, I think it uh was briefly above the level of treasuries held by governments outside the US in in central bank reserves. So, it's already kind of there. And Bitcoin is at, you know, 1.3 trillion or something, you know, so it has a long way to go to catch up to that 30 40 trillion level. uh where I see Bitcoin really starting to take off as a medium of exchange is uh at least a

million dollars a coin. So whenever that happens and when whenever you have satent parody and then you also have just kind of the easy able to kind of think about what it is in in in dollar terms as it gets closer to a penny per sat. Uh you know so I think that's sometime in the 2030s. Um I would have said you know 5 years ago I definitely thought we'd hit a million bucks. uh before 2030, but you know, sitting here at in the 60s, >> I don't know. It's tough because I think you'll probably only have one big bull cycle between now and 2030. So, I would have thought we'd be kind of, you know, >> why >> would have would have hit at least 200k before

by now if we were still on track to hit a million. So, it's probably more like a million by 2033 or something like that. >> Why do you think we're moving slower than originally anticipated? Uh, interestingly, it's probably financialization. It's probably uh the things that we cheer for. I think it's just that there's it's it's a risk-on asset in the portfolios of much bigger players that don't understand what they own. Um, I I think there's actually a pretty strong case to be made for uh Bitcoin price being quite a bit higher without the ETFs and without a uh a pro- crypto president. Uh, I think we'd be higher actually without Trump in office and probably it debatable on whether

we'd be higher without the ETFs because again it just let a lot of people, you know, buy it without understanding it and not have any conviction before they bought it. And so they're kind of the most paperhanded people in the market. >> Yeah, it makes sense. Um, there's a ton of derivatives out there and these aren't necessarily real Bitcoin. Uh, and so it's sort of like you said led to the financialization of it. um these people are buying the financial instrument kind of buying number go up technology without really understanding the principles behind it. So um the more education that we do to ultimately help people understand the value proposition sort of shifts uh the capital I guess from you know some more of those paper products into real hard Bitcoin.

>> Uh so Cory man thank thanks for helping us understand the way that you see the space. Fascinating stuff. I like how you think in decades. Um, I like I like the time horizon. Um, hopefully we we can uh we can run some fives one day, play some basketball out there and uh >> Sounds good. >> Can get get you out there on the point guard. Thanks, Corey. >> Love it. Thanks. >> We'll see you next time, man. >> All right, guys. We're going to do a quick break and then we're going to go to Andy in the tokenization tower. He's got our next guest. We're going to be chatting with uh Arouch from Alpaca. So guys, don't go anywhere. Be right back after this with Andy and Arouch.

>> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

>> We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. You know we get [music] deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. >> [bell] >> Going in 70.

>> Guys, welcome back to the tokenization tower. It was a great segment with core. We've got Arouche Seagal, the head of crypto and digital assets at Alpaca here in the studio. Arouch, welcome to the tower. Good to have you, buddy. >> My man, >> good to see you. Um, what a what a time for tokenized equities with the launch of SpaceX last week. Really kind of blew the awareness up, I think, of what's happening on chain as far as the trading activity on Hyperlid with per on Salana with the native um, uh, spot trading and just generally seeing this rise happen. You guys are building a lot of this interesting technology underpinning that at Alpaca. Before we get into that, Roo, you I saw your ex profile today had a very interesting FTX unsecured committee

uh part to it and I can't help but be curious as to what the hell you were doing with the FTX >> debacle back in 2022. Maybe we can start there. >> Yeah. So uh this was my unfortunate introduction to the industry and I was one of the largest creditors in FTX and because of my background building exchanges and being in fintech entrepreneur the DOJ reached out to me and asked me to serve on the on the committee the official committee. So they picked nine there were 9 million creditors they picked nine people to represent the creditors. The way bankruptcy works is there's the debtors and the credit the creditors and they're basically enemies.

>> Yeah. [snorts] And like so the the uh the board essentially of the the debtors answer to sorry the debtor's answer to like the CEO of a company answers to the the board of creditors which is in this case it was the unsecured creditors committee was the class of creditors that was like the main part of the bankruptcy because there were nine million of us and there was like not many other classes >> and so you you were leading on behalf of all the people who lost money. You also had a a significant sum in there clearly. Um >> I had my net worth in well most 95% of my net worth in FTX in Bitcoin.

>> Wow. >> And that was you know um pretty challenging time for me and many people around the world. Um it was one of those things where you I mean very rare opportunity to take part in like one of our biggest financial frauds of our generation. >> Yeah. >> And like I got to see everything from the inside. Like our job was to basically doublech checkck all of the debtor's work and make sure they weren't sent selling assets under market price which is exactly what they did. >> Yeah. despite everything that we tried to do to stop them. Um it was just yeah it was a really difficult time for me being on the committee and fighting with lawyers every day like it was and it's

an unpaid position and imagine I just lost everything. >> Yeah. >> And I was now working full-time like really long hours >> uh for for the bankruptcy and not not getting paid. And so it was only it was only a certain number of years I could do that. >> Yeah. >> Before I had to resign basically. >> Yeah. >> But I saw through like the main part of the bankruptcy and >> yeah it was really disappointing. I mean, I saw everything from the inside. Like, I saw >> the anthropic position, the mist and sooie stack, the Robin Hood, >> like 7 and a half% of Robin Hood. We had >> like uh it was >> it was a disastrous bankruptcy. Like one of the worst worst executed bankruptcies

I've like in history. I think it was going to go down as >> I mean that anthropic position was just monstrous. And to just have lost that at such a early price >> pre AI boom is just heartbreaking. >> And we made a deal with the debtors to hang on to the anthropic piece. >> Yeah. >> Uh and we gave up a lot to get that deal done. >> Yeah. >> Um and as soon as as soon as the deal was done, they walked away and sold it behind our back. So it was like >> it was they were completely negotiating in bad faith the whole time. And that's why everything got sold under market price because like for those guys >> they don't earn on the value that they create for the creditors. They because it's legally

>> they're legally bound to be paid by the hour. >> So that they're socalled not conflicted parties right? >> And so for them they see all these assets as like things they can dish out to their to their customers or their their future clients so that they get the next bankruptcy deal. And then and like all the participants in the bankruptcies are all like they may be facing each other in this bankruptcy, but they're partnering on another bankruptcy. >> Wow. >> And like they're all in each other's pockets and doing each other's favors. Like you'll see lawyers move from firm to firm and then they get promoted and the the judges as well. It's like a complete revolving door. But there's a whole crazy situation. like the bank bankruptcy is like is an industry that

is not unlike any other industry and it's just like it's quite disgusting to be honest and it needs major reform but that's probably for another day. >> Yeah. I mean man I mean this led you to then find Alpaca to have this kind of journey into tokenization in Alpaca and and uh basically pulling together >> bringing you know tokenized assets onchain and that was like the next logical step for me. >> Okay. So the way that happened is I was working with Arjun from Tribe Capital who is now the CEO of Kraken to buy FTX out of bankruptcy. Okay. So we were one of the final biders, the final three bidders >> and it was bullish figure and us.

>> Yeah. >> Um and in the end the lawyers killed the deal because they didn't want the FTX rebooted. But in regardless like that whole process fell apart and Arjun went to CEO Kraken and he's like oh there's a portfolio company of mine Alpaca and like you should go check it out and instead of rebuilding FTX exchange go build their exchange and so I came in met the guys like Yoshi and Hoshi amazing founders I love the company and I saw that they had all the licenses to do tokenization and this was back in 2024 2023 20 24 >> so I was like okay this tokenization things coming and you guys have the best licenses, so let's do this.

>> Yeah. >> And 2025 was like a transformative year for us >> and 2026 is going to be even bigger. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, >> yeah. And so obviously like the audience understands tokenized equities, token, you know, deposits, stable coins, etc. But specifically with the equities portion, that's where a lot of the activity is happening. You're getting a lot of this trading activity on chain, whether it be in pers or in spot. People are are are starting to actually hold these things and kind of create a portfolio for themselves on chain outside of just crypto assets. A lot of kind of like bearish market sentiment is leading people to want higher quality assets on chain. Maybe you can just explain to us the relationship that Alpaca has between Alpaca, the DTCC, how that process works and then how

eventually all the tokenized or the majority of the tokenized equities in the onchain ecosystem are kind of flowing through Alpaca's uh kind of infrastructure. Yeah. And kind of how that works. >> Okay. So, Alpaca is a self-clearing member of DTCC and we're we're probably the only one that also runs a crypto exchange. So back when all these products were being designed by Ando and XTOX essentially who like created this market, we were the only game in town because we were API first. We're an API first brokerage, right? So if you want to build any kind of financial products, um we've got the best platform for that.

And we also have we were like, you know, during the Biden reign of terror, if you guys remember, like all of our competitors sold off their crypto arms and they had no crypto capabilities. So we were the only ones with stable coin on offramp and we yeah this just became we became the core infrastructure for all of these guys. So the way it works is uh they're we're their brokerage and custodian for the traditional shares and this includes Binance Btos Kraken X stocks ono dinari thread of the pod right >> y >> um and many more which some we're not allowed to name yet.

>> Yeah. But if you look at the total actively traded tokenized equities, um we have over 90% market share, like probably over 95% market share. >> Um so like ignoring wallets that are inactive and don't actually trade like the real economic activity is happening with uh customers of Alpaca. Now what we do is because we're their brokerage, right? So orders that they place on the Trady markets go through us.

>> Yeah. >> And the shares are custodied with us in our DTC box. >> And that just means our account at the DTCC. >> Yeah. >> Uh and because all of these guys are um like all of those shares are actually within our DTC box and and within our ledger and our ledger is a 24/7 ledger. we can actually execute movements between um issuers like and so when people talk about like oh there's tokenized equities are fragmenting the market and like there's now there's different like x different number of tokens for the same thing >> actually alpaca unifies all of that liquidity because we're holding all the

underlying and so we built we realized this early and last year we launched a product called ITN which is the instant tokenization network it's one of our most successful products now and what it does is it allows you to create or redeem any flavor of token in kind with the underlying share. >> Yeah. >> So, if I've got >> and and this is how like all of the exchanges are doing the uh tokenize your portfolio feature where like you're trading normal securities, >> tokenize your portfolio, and you can like withdraw it on chain. That happens through it because we're doing like the inkind mint redeem >> and there's a lot of uh Yeah, I mean I'll I'll pause right there. There's a lot to talk about. And so you know I was interviewing the CEO of dinar and he was

talking about how every tokenized share that you hold of their dshares product onchain there is a effectively a beneficiary account like it's in a sub brokerage that is held one to one for every share that you own that you can redeem at any time and alpaca is that brokerage that that dinari uses that use xtox uses etc etc. So when when these teams because a lot of the audience is is starting to like question like what am I actually buying right like when I'm buying different versions of these shares like what do I get? >> Okay so this is we need to dispel this false narrative that's taking hold right now right on the rollup. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. >> Okay. >> It is nothing to do with the rapper model or like the alpaca as a infrastructure provider. >> Mhm. >> And it's everything to do with the way the issuer decides to like construct their tokenized equity and like the the contract that they're creating uh is def defines like the risk profile and the the rights that you get. And everyone's doing it differently and they're all doing like they're all using alpaca and they've all come up with different models. Right. So >> it's not necessarily all the same like ono is different to krakens x and it's different to dinari but they all use alpaca underneath.

>> Right. Right. >> So >> we're like totally model agnostic actually. >> Correct. >> And we can actually we can also work with the transfer model but the transfer agents directly issue. >> Yeah. Um so yeah the way like if I can give you some examples like dinari they've done a lot of work to make it like what they believe to be US compatible right um so they they they put a lot of effort into making sure that the customers get the MBBO like the best the trady price >> they uh have a rights transfer and the corporate actions like relate back to the token holder like Xtocks doesn't do that like they'll receive a dividend and they'll reinvest the dividend into the

share into the SPV, right? So then you and as a token holder, you end up owning more of the underlying um and they've regulated it in the EU. So that's also something different about XTOS >> that they they're registered mythid to securities. So any EU broker can deal these or like trade these and route these. >> Ono is slightly different. They do they have a BVI entity and in the BVI it's unregulated business activity. They don't need a license to do tokenization. Um, and like Ono, I got to say that Ono technically is extremely impressive what they pulled off that no one and they did it first, which was they managed to ensure that the end user on chain when

they're buying, they get um they can like put a million dollar clip in and they will not get slipped more than five basis points. And they've engineered that five basis points because I think it's like what they earn off of it or something. >> Yeah. But they've got the best they had the best uh liquidity execute like the way that you're executed and everybody started copying them. So actually if you interested in this stuff like go put like go buy ano token on 1 in for example >> and then put that transaction into AI and let it and like tell it to teach you like what's happening with all the smart contracts and you'll see exactly what they're doing and it's super smart. Uh and now everybody's copying that.

>> Interesting. Yeah. and 1 in has started to become quite the quite the the aggregator player in the RWA market as as as well. They've done some interesting innovations as of late there too. Um what's your view on pers as from alpaca's perspective, right? It's not necessarily in your lane as far as like the direct work that you're doing, but what's your view on like the the perpication of tokenized assets versus this kind of like direct or rapper or native modeling? It's quite a different, you know, side on the spectrum. How do you how do you kind of reconcile the value there?

>> Uh, so I think like like it's becoming very obvious now that if you want price exposure, per is like the most efficient instrument >> to do so. Um, I think it's going to eat the entire CFD market >> really. >> I think uh the cost to operate a per is just dramatically lower than with CFDs. and underlying each CFD is now going to become is going to be a per. I think that's I think it's just going to dramatically change the whole industry. Um these tokenized stocks showed that there's demand for just price exposure.

>> Yeah. >> So the per is the perfect product for that and these tokenized these early tokenized equities kind of prove the demand >> and I and you're seeing it with the SpaceX volume like most of it's in PES, right? So they I think ultimately the pers and the tokenized equities operate different like needs and the tokenized equities are sort of the collateral in the system >> and per obviously provide you the leverage and the price exposure speculation right so I think they're going to do different jobs and tokenized equities will become the collateral for per soon you know all the all the exchanges are going to have to >> build that cross margining system >> yeah you know you're here in New York.

There's a tokenized disc conference this week here. There's a lot of traditional institutions that you're speaking with meeting. Um, has there been any recent like kind of like light bulb moments from the tokeniz tokenization of equities segment? Did SpaceX kind of make its way into any of the conversations? Did like has there been any more material uh demand or action from the traditional firms on tokenization as of like just the last couple of months? like kind of just give us a bit of a pulse check from what you're seeing any insights from you know recent conversations with the issuers or the adopters of this technology where we where we kind of at because from our perview it's like this maximum all all systems go kind of bull market type of e

energy and uh pace give us a sense of what's happening on on the ground >> so with SpaceX you know I think it drew in my opinion it drew a lot of attention to the IPO process and how broken it is in general. The Tradfi IPO system is broken in my opinion. >> It's an initial like it's a public offering, but actually it's not a public offering. It's an insider offering. >> It's like whoever has access to an to the allocation >> only they get like the public offering, right? And everybody else is like trying to get in and they don't get access.

Okay. So that's so the tokenized the demand coming for tokenized SpaceX >> was also just bringing to light that >> you know hey like there's there something's broken about this trady IPO process. >> Yeah. >> Uh and all these other people like you know there's real demand here. >> So now there was this thing that happened with Kraken where they couldn't get an allocation. >> Yeah. Yeah. single Bance and by bit as well. They struggle to get the actual shares, >> right? Because buy bit depends on XTOS because they XTOS are on by bit.

>> Sure. >> And you know there's ultimately it came down to who's who who's giving E Kraken the allocation because they didn't have direct access to the IPO, >> right? >> And the way that >> and and and let me tell you something else. This was not a cryptospecific problem. If you look on Twitter and you see the customers of Charles Schwab and Fidelity, right, they all had the same issue. And it's because the underwriters of the IPO were like Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, >> and they have >> I think Morgan Stanley owns Erade, right?

>> Yeah. >> So, they obviously gave all of their access to Erade, and they don't want Erade's competitors having allocation, >> right? >> Right. So, that's that's whole that's all part of the insider >> offering. >> It's broken, >> right? >> It's broken. So it the fact that Kraken had a problem was all to do with you know their ability to manage or like secure the allocation and like basically Morgan Stanley Goldman Sachs saying like you we're not going to give you allocation. >> Yeah. or like we'll give you small allocation, right? And then and nothing to do with the actual model or anything to do with tokenized equities and there were in fact dinari ando al they secured tokenized uh SpaceX >> uh allocations and they're you know built on Alpaca too, right?

>> So it's like it has nothing to do with the token. Yeah. Just want to dispel that that narrative too. >> Yeah. And then just kind of like holistically I know we're kind of coming up on time. You got a busy day here today. Um I is the is this tokenized equity kind of construct something that I mean these firms that you're speaking with are just all in on like like they see it happening like is there a level of fear or is there a level of like value capture um you know is there any second or third order kind of happenings that we should think about as this progresses and and these launching just kind of give us some insights there.

Okay, this is something that everyone's going to have to understand coming soon, right? Okay, crypto is a like the reason why crypto is really interesting for Tradfi is because it has the ability to eliminate the biggest risk, the structural risk in the system, which is delivery risk. Okay, so what what's delivery risk? It's like when a broker dealer like what happened with GameStop, Robin Hood had to turn off the buy button because there like this is like I'm not going to go into like super details.

>> But ultimately someone has to if someone's buying a stock someone else the market makers are short and the broker dealer is on the hook for like getting that stock. >> Yeah. >> And that's settlement risk if they can't get the stock to the settle the stock T plus1 to the customer and that's that's called a delivery failure. And crypto has the ability to solve that delivery failure because all trades are atomic. Meaning the the buy and the sell happen at the same time and they sell instantly. >> The problem with this though is that if you look at the volume of trading that happens preunded versus post trade settled. It's like less than a percent of global trading volume is preunded.

And all crypto trading is preunded. Like the reason that atomic trade works is because both sides are preunding the trade. Correct. Yeah. >> So, the market makers don't want to preund all these tokenized equities. >> They're like like tokenized equities issuers have to pay market makers to use their balance sheet >> to to make market and they have an IR hurdle rate which is like usually 30%. They need to minimum make 30 35 40% per year on their money, right? So, they charge the issuers to make markets for them. Now, that's that is currently where we're at in the tokenized equities world is that they're all pre-unded trades, >> right?

>> And our job as a clearing broker is to introduce the concept of post-trade settlement for tokenized equities. Like whenever you introduce delayed settlement and margin which is remember like 99% of the market >> you need to have this concept of centralized clearing >> and multilateral networking netting like this is how the trady system works. >> Yeah. >> Uh that that concept of clearing doesn't exist today in in crypto trading >> because we don't even need it. Just everything >> self and then the blocks hit and then it's confirmed on chain and it's done.

>> So that is coming. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. centralized clearing and multilateral net netting is coming and that's like why I'm here in New York because we're talking to all the players to figure out how to make this work. >> Yeah. Well, Arouch, I wish you guys some more time, but I know you you got to go meet the WSJ out there and do some more preaching of Alpaca. Thanks for spending some time with us here in the tower. I appreciate it and uh we'll have to get you back on again soon. >> Excellent. >> Thank you, Arouch. All righty, guys. I'm going to finish up the show in just a couple. Uh we'll be right back. uh go over the markets, look at some of the chatter on X, and get a sense of where we're at going into the close today.

We'll be right back, guys. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> We get deep. [music] We get deep. You

know we get deep know we get deep we get [music] deep know we get deep know we get deep we get deep know we get deep [music] know we get deep we get deep know we get deep [music] we get we get deep power [music] Big big [music] money.

We get deep. We get deep, [music] you know. We get deep. We get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. [music] We get deep. We get deep, you know. We get deep. [music] [music] [music] >> [music]

[music] [music] >> We get deep. We get deep, you know. We get deep. We get deep. [music] We get deep. You know, we get deep. You know, we [music] get deep. We get deep. Know we get deep. [music] Know we get deep. We get deep. Know we get deep. Know [music] we get deep. We get deep.

Know we get deep. [music] We get we get deep. We get deep. We get [music] we get deep, you know. We get deep. [music] [music] We get deeper. We get deep, you know. We get deep. [music] We get deeper. We get deep, you know. We get deep.

[music] We get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

>> All righty, guys. My goodness. Purr not looking great. Yikes. Yikes. That yikes. Hype. Hype. Yikes man. I mean, could be worse. Anything above 60 is good. We This is a mustold zone. Mustold zone for hype. I mean, absolutely must zone. Um, this isn't even the right chart.

Yeah, this is a mustold. I mean, we got to this is a mustold here. Um, for at least any sort of potential trend continuation. I mean, otherwise, we're just going to be we're just going to be chopping around for a while. I mean, I'm seeing people call for the 30s now. That baseline, lol. Y'all rave for sure. Heaven's player. Freedom guys, back in the chat. Freedom guy, saw your comment, man, yesterday. Uh, glad to have you back live this time. Uh, not the best market today, but we keep going.

Um, FTX guy was crazy. Facts, Stephanie, what's up? Yeah. Um, so must hold here, guys, for hype. Um, and I don't know, don't have that much confidence. Honestly, not loving it. Um, Zcash, I mean, looks to be revisiting at least these 350 levels, maybe. We'll see. Bitcoin, that scared me. Bitcoin. I mean, yeah, Bitcoin Bitcoin might just take that tumble that everyone I feel like everyone knows that a tumble's coming and it's almost like a musical chair game to like get away from it before it

does, but then there's still like upside in like hype and some of these other trades. So, yeah, but it it doesn't look particularly that compelling. I mean, we need a hold here. Although honestly man, what wouldn't what would what would uh not surprise me, I'm definitely not like a TA trader. Like I'm not gonna I'm not gonna trade this, but like I wouldn't be surprised to get like a little bit lower on Bitcoin and then have like a full reversal back to like low7s. Like that would be like that'd be like the epitome of like, oh, we're going to zero. We're we touch 60K again or is back at like 72K by like middle of July.

I don't know. Obviously, it's impossible to know, but I I I do feel like the inevitable the the inevitable price discovery down in these region is probably, like I said, it's probably inevitable. Um, who's doing all the selling, who's left to sell, man, I don't I don't know. I really don't know. Um, on Bitcoin specifically, I I I don't Yeah, but there's definitely more sellers than buyers as of as of right now. And then you got stuff like ETH. I mean >> embarrassing.

>> Yeah. I mean ETH just I mean it doesn't look that much different than Bitcoin, you know? It's except it's consolidating like far below like the lows. You know what I mean? Like it's consolidating under that level rather than Bitcoin is above the level. Um, so that's like the key structure difference at least, you know, like this level. Bitcoin's at least like above it, whereas you guys saw ETH was below it.

Yeah. I mean, this is like kind of like the must hold zone, guys. We're still way early. No worries. They're going to get clarity done soon. Yes, I did see something from Watcher Guru, guys. Um, I don't know if you guys saw this. Uh, US House Committee schedules CryptoClarity Act hearing for July 17th. Um, so that's good. It's just a hearing, but you know, that's kind of like the final the final day. Like if they don't get it done by then, then uh then we're in trouble. I think for clarity this year at least. I mean, I think I still think it goes through, but for this year, you want to see that thing go through uh in July.

[snorts] Going back to our trusted data source, um I mean guys, like overall the thesis still is holding up. Open interest took a bit of a dive. This is a lot of the thesis still for me. So, we want to see that hold up. We also want to see this continue. Um, this is the lowest MNAV I've seen in a while on PUR. So, um, that thing that thing they're going to have trouble hitting the ATM and stuff. Uh, because technically if you take out their tax

um, basis if they ever sell hype, they're actually under the MNAV now. So, those guys need a bet. Those guys need a bounce. I think we're going to get a bounce on hype here. I don't think we're just going to go down like I mean all the way down to like 50s or anything. Like I think this is a pretty reasonable spot for a bounce. Like if you're looking at this like you got the people that are going to call for the double top which I think is pretty pretty possible. But I don't know man. Like if you guys if you do this [snorts] and you just kind of like zoom out. Yeah. It doesn't look great. I mean, this little price action doesn't look great, but I mean, this is where this is what we're

operating with. So, you know what I've been doing, though, is I've been asking chat about charts and just being like, where does this go next? And so, it's actually pretty funny when you ask chat or anything, Gemini, chat, whatever. Um, where does this go next?

We're still early. NOCSM, good to see you. Freedom Gry, good to see you. Heavens Player, good to see. Don't see it going under 57 unless it's actually cooked, then buying at 50. Yeah, I probably agree. I I mean sub60 incoming from Rugrat possible on the 3-day chart. Hype looks like it's a middle of a volatility expansion rather than a completed top. Massive breakout vertical move force pull back to 62 after the previous still making higher highs.

So yeah, I mean this is what we want. We want to see uh this basically and I don't know if we're going to get it. Bearish is losing that 55 level as you said uh heavens player. We want to see 57 hold. Um that's the cuz to me I mean it's scary don't get me wrong. Like it's not it's not like it's not it doesn't look great but like yeah when you I'm going to give chat the daily chart as well.

Um like when you zoom out a little bit, consolidation between 60 and 75 is really bullish. Um yeah, yeah. I mean, this is the issue though, right? Because then the double top comes into play. If we break 60, you know, we're going to go back to that 4550 range. And so the structure doesn't destroy it.

Compared to the 3-day chart, daily showing something more concerning. Secondly, if it failed to make a meaningful new high, that's usually the first warning sign before a deeper correction to reset funding or a long side raise range. What do you guys think? Do we like do we put our financial decisions on trading and investing into chat GPT's hands? I don't know if that's advisable. >> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait.

>> Let's see what it says about Bitcoin. >> I wouldn't mind buying at 58. I'm hearing we have until early August for clarity to make sure it gets done this year. I I would hope, but I also I also know that those congressmen and women are going to go off to their summer summer holidays and they're campaigning for this upcoming election period. Do you not worry that all HIP3 volume is on Trade XYZ? Rob and I talked about that like yesterday, I think, or the day before or last week. It would be concerning if Trade XYZ like broke out from Hyperlquid somehow and like launched their own token or something.

Um but I am not that concerned. I'm more just bullish. There's a market waiting for sub 60 bullish. Yeah. I mean, here's the the key level 60K is everything. Initial panic low, current retesting on top of it. Markets often raise at panic lows. Yeah. See, this is what I think is possible, but it's impossible to know. Um yeah it's impossible to know and 50% chance range between 60 to 68k 35% chance to break below 65 or 60k 15% chance immediate recovery above 68

for hypox BTC 60k level more than hype share if BTC loses 60k it's hard to imagine hype holding 60 BTC stabilizes reclaim 6668. Hype gets another shot. Yeah. I mean, this is probably the this is probably the core of it right there. I mean, I I I mean, that's that's the read. So, [snorts] I still think it's just it's just holding the good quality stuff, guys. Like, you know, some of these have gotten beaten up a little bit and like this lower high isn't great.

This lower high is not great. Like that doesn't look very promising, but it didn't look very promising there either. A lot of these lower highs, air drums a little bit different, but this daily is really ugly. I definitely bought like right around here last week. So, we'll see what happens there. lighter also lower high. Those lower highs are a bit concerning. Hype hype had a higher high, but nothing has changed about hype and it's on sale. I agree. I agree. The structure is still intact, but we got to hold this level or else I think it's I think it

becomes problematic. But look, last time we ran to 75, we pulled all the way back to 53. Makes sense that we get another pullback before trying again. Question is, is Bitcoin going to allow us to try again or is it going to have its is it going to have its breakdown? That I don't know. That I do not know. the best way. I agree about the quality. The space is clearly consolidating. If you're talking about trading, then ignore my comment.

Yeah. No, I mean, look, I'm not really like a day trader, week trader. Um, okay. Framework I use, you're oversized. Move from 62 to 45 material change your life sleeper decision making you're too big first thing I'd solve this probably speaking directly to me you have dry powder this is where patience has the highest EV instead of perfectly trying to call you can just scale buy some here buy some more buy more into panic if it reaches major support you have no dry powder am I holding because of conviction or because I don't want to realize a draw down very different what I would not do I wouldn't be aggressively trading every daily I think this is us guys I think this is us.

I think this is us. This is us. This is us for like Bitcoin for hype for a lot of them. It's it's if you're bullish hype over the next one to three years. If you're bullish Bitcoin over the next one to three years, I wouldn't be aggressively daily trading. That's kind of where we're at. I mean, that's this show. Like, this show isn't like let's day trade, you know, every candle. It's really just like positioning, trying to zoom out, ride the waves on the volatility. And I think that's kind of like what this show is. So that's where I'm going to leave this. Um, and yeah, I mean, definitely a big daily close today.

And I not going to say it looks strong in any way. Um, Bitcoin definitely looks a little bit little bit sus, but that's okay. And guys, like I said, every time, ups or downs, highs or lows, Rob and I are going to be here. Rob's going to be in Peru for like the next week or so. Just be me. I'll be here tomorrow, the next day, the next day. Whatever happens, we're going to push through. I am promising that we're on the tail end of this bare market. It might get ugly over summer.

Might get ugly. Might be a little slow. Might be a little bit choppy. might be might be kind of zoomed. We might have to zoom out, but I think we're going to have opportunity. We're going to look back on this time period with grace, with gratitude, and we're going to have to live to see another day. So, W's in the chat. >> W's stay optimistic. >> Stay optimistic. Stay long-term oriented. That's what the show is about. More more like these long-term swing investments than shorter term stuff.

And yeah, regardless of what happens this week next, I continue to say we're on the closer end of this bear. It's almost July. July, August, September. That means like worst case, I think, is we have three months left of this bear. Three months. That's it. That's nothing. In the grand scheme of things, that is nothing. That is just three months of persevering through chop and potential lower prices and that's all it is. Three months. So guys, I'll see you guys tomorrow. The usual time, 12:30 p.m.

Eastern. We have a great show tomorrow again and we'll stay on top of it. Much love in the chat. [music] Great to see you guys as always. >> Till we see you tomorrow. Peace. >> [music] [music]