🚨LIVE: Do Buybacks Work?! HYPE, PUMP, LIT, ETHFI, AERO, NEAR, FRAX. GMoney, Kean & Joe Chalom Join

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[music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] >> 17 floor.

[music] We'll see you around the [music] timeline. Feels good to be back. >> [music] >> I think the rollup is one of the most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great [music] experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding it to my library every >> potentially multi-chain deployments. >> We are at Dev Connect [music] day one here. I hope you guys [music] [music]

[music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity,

the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. I'm bullish. [music] >> He said it. He finally said it. So bullish. It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] >> [music] [music]

[music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. Heat. >> [music] >> Hey, [music] hey hey.

Roll up [music] is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the rollup. [music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat. [music] Heat.

[music] >> [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] >> for roll up is headed to the top. If

we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the roll up. [music] [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music]

>> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] >> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] >> Welcome to the next. See you on the show. Happy Friday. I went to the bodega this morning and I said feliss uh vieres and I almost said hue this is Thursday came out from the Argentina trip and my Spanish is absolutely firing. Welcome back to tokenization tower the nest

broadcasting live from the financial capital of the world. You're watching the rollup today's Friday August 14th. You know what it is. Soho house Fridays for the rollup fam meat packing so house rooftop. I will see you there in a couple of hours. Ladies and gentlemen, we had a great show for you today. As always, shout out to our friends powering this show here from the Empire State Building, Plume. We're at the Nest. We're live from the Financial Capital World from one of the most iconic buildings in the world. Title of today's show is, "Do buybacks work?" A lot of rhetoric on the timeline about buybacks, about what's happening in the market. Robbie's joining the show imminently. He'll join us today. We've got Goney in 20 minutes and we've got Joseph uh Shalom of of Sharlink here shortly as well. Uh, as always guys, uh,

we have a great show ahead and looking forward to putting it on with you guys. Monero doing decent. Yes, privacy coins are having have had the best performance of, you know, most coins in the entire market. It's kind of crazy. No one's talking about it, but they are some of the biggest performers. Uh, and so it's really great to see. Let's get into it. Let's get the show started. Today's topics and more. Uh, we're live from the to uh, the tokenization tower. We've got G Money, Lido, and Sharpink calling in about the big deposit of Ethereum into Lido from Joseph Shalom and the Sharplink family over there. Uh they're doing great and we're just going to keep rolling through it. We got a lot of news, a lot of content, a lot a lot to talk about about portfolio and more on

us. Happy Friday. Let's get into the markets, weather, and more. Before we do, let me tell you about dinari building infrastructure for tokenized US equities and bringing real world stocks on chain. 80. It is 90 degrees in New York City. It is hot. It feels like 91. I'm going to get some sun today. As I said, Soho House Fridays for the boys uh and girls at Soho House. Um it's going to be warm day. It's not that warm in the office today. The office is always empty on Fridays. We got the open office. Got the open air. Got my Diet Coke. Um portfolio's doing okay. kind of slowed down today.

Uh but I think we'll be just fine. Um looking forward to talking about token economics and more. Um before we do, let's talk about the markets and get into that. Let me tell you about FRA, our stable coin partner. Open, stable, and borderless. Uh bringing all different types of assets on chain with their digital dollar product. Visit fra.com to learn more about their stablecoin product. Um guys, the markets I mean we got Bitcoin up a little bit. Uh about about flat after a dump to start the day. Ethereum as well. Uh Salana down a little bit. Chain link up a little bit. Near down a little bit.

Not a whole lot has changed. I mean we are in a lack of volatility mode. I mean we are not seeing a lot of volatility. We are not seeing a lot of happening in the market. Uh it's just kind of apathetic conditions and that's you know that's what we've been expecting and yeah good morning labs. Good morning, Greg. Kyle Sanmani and Forward Industries are buying Salana. Let's go. Double zero with that Chad of announcement with Koshi indeed. Uh good good good progress today across the markets. Uh some announcements I did see buying more soul. Uh increasing his soul per share, which I thought was great to see. And you know what else is doing well guys? Etherfi.

not talked about a lot, not discussed a lot at all, but Ether is doing quite well. Etheri is doing quite well. Um, Hype's doing okay. Lighter's doing okay. Um, Pump is just I mean, Pump won't even give us a a pullback to get more sizing. I'm trying to get more spot size in on Pump and I I mean, I'm I'm trying to get this thing down another 10% or so, and it just won't even pull back. So, Pump's been kind of a lone horse, just ripping hard uh and and continues to do quite well. Shout out to Zama, uh our digital assets market partner, uh powering confidential computing on chain with their Morpho Vault deposit USDC confidentially onchain today. First of its kind. Very cool product there.

Honestly, the sponsors of the show are just I mean, Zamas tokens been ripping. Uh Plume has has had a strong move the last two months. Fra is up quite a bit the last month. Um ne near is doing all right. So, um guys, waiting for Zcash to kind of break out of this compression. It's like just absolutely compressing. Uh Monero, we just got a tip on looks pretty strong as well. Um longer term, those privacy coins have been doing quite quite well. Otherwise, in equities markets, I mean, ripping. I mean, QQQ is up, SPY is up.

Um, S&P and NASDAQ are ripping. Oil's kind of chilling, not really doing anything crazy. The yields are kind of coming down. The DXY and the dollar are pulling back. And the yields are coming down a bit. Uh, we need to see those yields come down. We need to see the dollar come down for risk assets to have a bit more room to breathe, specifically crypto. and we we want to see inflation which we saw this week CPI and PPI in line or below expectations. Good news for risk assets. Um so stocks are steady, oil still is the headline risk and cooler inflation is giving bonds a little bit of time to breathe and also giving risk assets a little bit of time to breathe. So happy to see that in the markets. Good Friday and let's keep it

rolling into the uh next segment our news. Before we do video, let me tell you about Near. Your home for discovery and using apps on chain. Trade per swap. Near intents confidentially, all onchain. Explore what's possible with near.com today. And yeah, we pull into our first piece of news. But before we do, I'm going to go on a quick standby because I need to introduce Rob and his new setup. This deserves a segment of its own. So, I'm going to get to a line. I'm going to get to Sver. But guys, we're going to do a quick standby. We're going to pull Robbie up. He's going to go solo dooo and talk to you about what happened with his new sign. I think you guys are going to absolutely love it. I'll see you guys in just a second.

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[music] >> Make it. We get deep, you know. We get deep. [music] We get deep. We get deep, you know. We get deep. You know, we [music] get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. [music] Know we get deep. We get deep. Know we get deep. Know [music] we get deep. We get deep. Know we get deep. [music] We get deep. We get deep.

>> Yo yo yo. What's going on, guys? This is Itan with the rollup. We're going to be patrolling the streets of New York City getting answers to the questions that you guys have most. What are people trading? What are people investing in? How much do people actually budget? We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212.

All righty, guys. We're going to get Robia back up here in just a second. Uh he is fixing his sign. The sign, I think you guys are really going to like it. It's uh it's a good sign. It's a nice branding for the boys. Uh Freedom Guy, good to see you here in the chat as always. Um, man, markets aren't looking too bad, guys. You just got to, you know, roll through the punches. Pushing the pushing the boulder up the hill. What do we have here? We've got aligned with their new white paper with Sovereign or Sora and Lambda class bringing verifiable digital credentials uh to the new internet. Uh so they're they're launching a a protocol called Propria, a public protocol for verifiable digital credentials letting institutions issue credentials once then allows others to independently verify

them without relying on shared databases. Uh so basically this removes the need for centralized intermediaries to do things from you know identity uh authentication or access rights, qualifications, all these different types of things that are kind of verified today in Tratify and in centralized systems. uh doing that onchain and basically we're trying to get to a point here where where we have agents they're able to pull from opensource open databases on chain and do verifications uh credentials modeling all on chain and so what this is going to allow is for an institution to come on chain uh and be able to have this kind of distributed I like to say unfuckwithable access to

what is happening and the proof is in the pudding of what is happening in this uh in this protocol, whether it be verifying someone's uh accredited status, whether it be verifying their income, verifying the facts or the truth of a certain qualification or matter, where we're going to is, you know, and and where we've been is very clearly this uh trust or sorry, don't trust verify uh kind of world and now we're bringing that into the institutional world. Uh and products like this propria product from aligned and solver will do well. I had a great meeting with them down in Buenosides uh last week and spoke with RJ and one of their lead developers, Mao, and we spoke just very very deeply about just kind of what

they're thinking about their prop AMM design, how that's been going and just kind of scaling a lot of this tech in Latin America. Not many better teams out there bringing technology to the Latin American market and then scaling it out here in the United States as well. A friend of the show, longtime supporter. So that's what they're doing with uh SORA and the Propriate Protocol. Let's keep it rolling. I thought this was particularly interesting. Uh the X actually came out and I've never seen this from a social media network before, but they actually showed their weights. Aligned was set for an airdrop like three years ago.

Kind of forgot about them. Yeah. I mean, they I actually told R.J. that. I was like, it's actually good that you guys didn't launch your token. uh because it would be in a rough down only chart and you'd have to be dealing with all these angry community members and it just would not be ideal. And so I I I you know that that was my take to them. I like what's happening here. Freedom guy. I know you do. You are a big uh verified don't trust guy if I do say so myself. U so X comes out and shows the uh recommendation weights here. This is the open source the open sourcing of the X algorithm and it's just kind of important showing you what actually matters. So what works in the X algorithm how they are um you know uh

valuing different uh people uh or or sorry how they're valuing different metrics how they're valuing different people uh interacting with different posts uh and kind of what that process looks like. And so, yeah, I mean, I thought this was pretty pretty important for the X algorithm. Uh, I wanted to see this come out and I sent this to our socials team. You know, we kind of went over it, talked about it. Um, and so yeah, you just don't want to get muted, reported or blocked. Uh, that's the kind of the key takeaway here. And you want people to be replying. The biggest boost is to get somebody to press the copy link button on your ex tweet and then share it externally because it brings

people to the platform. And so that is uh that is I thought that was interesting. So if you're in the game of farming your own tweets uh I would recommend your friends copy the link and share them with their friends. Um, so yeah, guys, uh, we're going to roll into the next post and into the the, uh, inaugural uh, once a year introduction of Rob uh, with the fully branded design that is almost complete. We've got a little bit more tang to do, a little more funing to do, you could say, but the guy's almost dialed. It's been a long time making for this guy. You know, he's got a little tism. You know, he loves the small things in life. You know, he likes the simplicities in life.

but we dropped a bag on the sign and so we had to put it up there otherwise I I was going to need a little wire transfer Mr. Stoker our our our lead producer. So we're going to get into that. Before we do let me tell you about 1 in uh one of the key partners of the show uh who is bringing liquidity for RWA on chain. You may have heard of this concept of shared liquidity flying around. Products like Oneinch Aqua let you approve one wallet balance to back multiple positions at the same time across pairs, ranges, and chains. You're not splitting your tokens and you're not depositing them. You're not leveraging them either. It's a different way to keep your liquidity active in more markets. Check out 1inch.com/aqua.

Without further ado, let's bring Rob up. See what he's got going on here. Let's see what he's got. Bang. Look at that sign. [laughter] What an intro by my lovely co-host, Mr. Dooka Top Blaster. And uh what a shout out to Mr. Stoker. Uh Mr. Stoker's like Mr. Anderson from the Matrix movies if you guys get that reference. Uh much love. I'm a little late today. Had some things happening at the house. Uh but we're here. We made it. We're closing out the week. We're going to have a fantastic Friday and pray. We're going to absolutely pray for uh for weekend pro pumps this weekend. Um man, what I miss, guys. I see uh Freedom guys

absolutely cranking in the chat. Uh yeah, you know, a little touch of the tism couldn't hurt. You know, it's like when you spice up the soup, you put a little spice in there. Freedom guy, what do you put in your soup? A little oregano, a little green pepper. What do you put in there? Elbow cough. I like what's happening. I love what's happening here. Freedom guy. Greg, >> thanks for being here. Andy's got a little echo in the meat. That's only for uh for the the fellas behind the scenes. >> We're good. We're all good. I think we cracked the meat here. We reset the Mac Mini. Everything's good. Let's get this video up. Uh I thought this video was hilarious, guys. I think you guys would really like this one. agents [ __ ] up. We raised a $2.3 million seed round preede to warn you before it's too late.

Preface, Rob, have you seen the movie Obsession? >> No, I haven't. I've heard fantastic things. >> You got to watch this trailer here and you got to go see it with your girlfriend this weekend. That [ __ ] is ridiculous. So, let's go ahead and play this video, guys. I think you guys will really enjoy it. >> Isn't that crazy? that. >> So, how are those out of office emails? >> Can we not talk about that right now? >> Okay, >> sorry. It's the second time they texted me that.

I'll be right back. >> What is it, dude? I'm busy. >> Okay, so >> what is it? >> I looked into your out of office emails and she sent out replies to all 30,000 emails in your inbox. I told her to only reply to emails when I'm out of office. >> Look, you know, it's my job to surface these kinds of failures for you. And it may suck to hear, but I don't know. She sent 30,000 emails and then lied about it. It's either a lack of guard rails or context rot or I don't know, man. I'm going to pull the traces and look into it for you.

I care about calling tools on your behalf so so so so much. I don't think I can function without your prompts. >> Embarrassing. >> Calling tools on my behalf. >> She's an agent. >> Any human oversight? >> Yes. without any human oversight. >> What do they say if you're a two and she's a nine? She's an agent. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Did you send an out of office reply to every email in my inbox?

All 30,489 of them. >> Liar. No no no no no no no no no. Don't do that. I thought we were having a successful user session. >> We are. >> Then why does it matter? I thought I followed your frog.

>> You did. >> I did what you asked. I followed your [screaming] >> Give me a second to freshen up. Embarrassing. >> Yo, >> dude. Unreal. Fire. Unreal. >> What a product launch video. So context is there is a podcast from David Senra that just went out with the positioning girl who positions a lot of these uh Silicon Valley AI companies.

And one of her things was that all of these launch videos are all the same. Like they all the same thing. You got like this person who's sitting around and they're in a chair in the office and there's like some little cool animation and there's like some little, you know, basic thing and then that's it. And it's like it's like okay, you know, okay, >> Lulu Chang. >> No, Lulu Changurvi, founder of Roastra is the >> insane podcast.

>> Yeah. And so I saw this video right after I listened to that podcast and I was like, "Holy [ __ ] this thing did the numbers and this is just a fire fire video. I mean, I thought this was really original and I really liked it." And you got to see the movie Obsession. Yeah. And I mean, this was a in incredible launch video. Uh you can, you know, not only is it dramatic, it's just good content. like someone who even, you know, is vaguely adjacent to this industry, but it just enjoys like drama and action movies like would find this entertaining and also see the AI um like not only influence but just like the the

AI aesthetic and kind of get a different feel as far as like how they're taking a spin on like the agentic world and see it combined in like a very very entertaining way. uh even someone who's not in the industry and looking to use the product would find this interesting which I think is a great litmus test for these launch videos is like would a normie who doesn't even really care about the product or the industry find this entertaining I think that's a great litmus test but then you also if you are in the industry then you get it so very very cool launch video yeah and uh yeah um I want to see more of this >> I want to see more of this >> all right let's keep it rolling um into ethos

So, uh, Ethos put out the tweet. Are you human verified yet? Uh, might want to be for next week. Real humans only. Great post. So, true. And so, I just want to kind of like go on a little uh a little tangent here and say I'm going to verify. Uh, I am 100% going to verify and I am in the position where doing these small things right now on chain is going to have a potential outsized reward in the future. And so yesterday I posted out about Osero uh their free their free mint thing. And basically, I think that there's an opportunity here where you're going to have the ability

to do these different mints onchain right now, Deep Bear, that are going to give you some sort of some sort of airdrop, some sort of reward in the future. Like, there's a strong chance that that Osero mint that you get allows you to be in the better ICO uh round than the rest because you were there early. And you know, their AUM right now is 3.5 billion. Let's say the bull gets the 10 bill. All of a sudden, this thing's making a couple hundred thousand dollars a week, couple mill a month, $25 million annualized. Token launches and things prints and you're in the earliest stages of the ICO because you minted some random NFT on base for free. Same thing here with Ethos. Ethos has been growing their reputation network.

They've been doing a damn good job. And why not just join the platform for free? Same thing with FOMO app. Same thing with FOMO. Why not just make a FOMO account? And and so guys, if you're watching this, I just urge you to take this chance to join and participate in the apps that we know are going to be massive winners in the upside. I don't know if it's ethos. I don't know if it's Osero, but I think it's I I think it's FOMO. It's definitely poly market. And these sorts will probably yield some sort of opportunity, airdrop, etc. in the bull. And you will just want to be positioned for that. You just definitely will want to be positioned for that. So, uh what's the name of it again? That is uh Osero O S E R O that mint might be

gone. This is Ethos network. If you scroll up you can see that and then the app is FOMO. And then I think trying Poly Market of course on the uh on the mobile app is worth it as well. So we have a ton more news some more to talk about from the portfolio side and other things as well. But we've got G Money ready to join us here to talk about something that is new, which is fake world assets, which is Gotcha, which is the hyperlquid of Gachas, and just kind of what he's seeing on chain. Now, um Rob, someone wants to know the lore behind the rollup.

>> Greg, Greg wants to know the lore behind the rollup name, Brandon. >> Um I mean, well, Andy and I met in 2017. Uh, previous to the rollup, we were DeFi Slate, >> uh, which was pretty fun. It was a fun era of the rollup. Um, and I mean, man, we were we were thinking, uh, about >> we were thinking about the the direction of the space. Last bare market. Um, I mean, we probably just recently came came across a uh an anniversary for the rollup. I think DeFi Slate turned six as of like a month ago. the rollup probably turned four as of a month ago or so. And so, you know, we've been doing this a

while. Uh we saw that this trajectory of the space was changing in 2022 or so. And it was time for a shakeup. Uh it was moving beyond DeFi. It was moving into the direction where blockchains were getting used for finance far and beyond uh the early renditions of yield farming and DeFi summer. Uh so we decided to broaden our aperture a little bit and embrace the chain. We decided to embrace the chain. The rollup it also gave us a little bit of uh a little bit of leeway to expand the scope of our content beyond just blockchains and DeFi and apps. Uh but also rollup is just a pretty generic uh catchall for everything that's happening in the

space. You guys see the wheel? It's very contoured. Uh I think it has a nice aesthetic. We've uh deliberated dropping the the y >> uh you know people people claim it's uh it's sleeker uh >> like that one movie >> the social network it used to be the Facebook now it's just Facebook >> uh >> and so yeah I mean we go through these brand evolutions I don't think we've ever made a full pivot but we have gone through you know the rollup has gone through multiple iterations multiple eras multiple evolutions I'd imagine that we're going to go through more evolutions in the future and uh you know this uh this Uh the rollup is certainly a milestone in uh in this company's history.

>> That's right. Um while we get G Money up, we're going to pull him up in the back, get him set up. Quick question for you, Andy. Do you think Pump will be come Salana's version of hype and lighter later on? I think it already is. I think the answer here is that you want to own the casino for the biggest casino games on chain. And what are those two biggest casino games, speculative games, whatever it is on chain? Those are per those are memecoins and onchain trading.

And so why would I trade pers? Well, maybe I think I'm good. I just made like, you know, 8 to 10k on a pump fund long. Great. Awesome. Beautiful. But that was stressful. you know, why don't I just own the casino? I just want to own Pump Spot. I just want to own Hype Spot. And so, I think these are two of the biggest onchain speculative venues that will continue to grow. And so rather than being one of the minnows in the game, you know, trading pers, trading memes, trying to hit a thousandx or a 500% long or short, why not just be the owner of the game itself? [snorts]

And so that's how I'm thinking about owning pump and owning hype. And we get it, bro. Forest says, "I like to broaden the aperture and also expand." Yes, sir. Good. Nice to see you, Forest. Um, so that's my take on hype and pump. And I think that rather than trying to be a little shrimp in the casino trying to thousandx, there's a 5x in front of you on both of these in size. The next two years, there's a 5x on pump and hype or more in size on both these spot DCA enter hold. like it's it's it's that's it. So, all right guys, let's get

G Money up. Uh he is ready to go in the back and uh we'll we will be getting him up imminently. Um, for those of you who don't know, G Money is, um, a big onchain trader um, and has done a good job of, you know, keeping his keeping his uh, his trades public and bringing them up and, uh, you know, launching different projects, NFTTS, and is now a big FWA, which is a fake world assets. We've not done a segment on fake world assets yet, but I think that you guys will like it. Um, because this is a

new primitive on chain. I actually just top blasted on FOMO. >> So, a couple new things happening here. >> Mr. Duka top blaster >> is one, I've got a personal FOMO you guys can follow. >> And the other is the rollup FOMO is established, but it's not exactly ready yet. Uh, somebody in the chat, I think it was New Type was asking for a portfolio tracker of the rollup. And so that's what we're going to try to uh deliver for you guys. >> Yeah, I think that's important because uh there's a couple of dashboards that consolidate the revenue producing tokens uh that you know we believe in, but it misses quite a few because revenue oftent times is not programmable. It's

difficult to attribute revenue to certain projects even when it happens onchain. You know, Andy, we were chatting with a a partner of ours earlier today, you know, talking they they closed a few deals. They are generating revenue, but it's not showing up on chain in some of these, you know, data aggregators or dashboards. >> I mean, like chain link has that problem right? >> Yeah. >> All these massive enterprise deals. Mhm. Um, chain link did, you know, does show up in that net token value flows dashboard as one of the highest ones on the list. I think I because I did a segment on this yesterday. Hyperlid and, you know, uh, Cake uh, Cake Swapper or Pancake Swap Pancake Swap is uh, are the two up there? You know, why is Pancake

Swap up there? I'm not sure, but obviously generating revenue. Chain Link was like third after those two. So it does show up but that does not by any stretch capture the totality of the revenue that chain link is bringing in. So agreed >> um you know it it would be very cool to get some more attribution about where exactly these revenues are coming from, how much is flowing into the tokens. Uh regardless I think a uh public portfolio dashboard for the rollup would help everyone follow along as we're making moves in real time. >> Um guys, I think we've got G Money all set up. I see he's ready behind the scenes and uh I'm excited to to chat about fake world assets. We had G Money on the show once before chatting more

about AI. That was a great segment wearing a very cool looking watch. So, why don't we go ahead bring him up and uh have a quick chat. Fake World Assets. What's going on in that world? >> What's up, buddy? >> What's up, guys? How you doing? Thanks for having me. >> Good, good, good to see you. Good to see you again. How's it going? >> Good, good. Um yeah, man. And I'm uh I I heard you talking a little about Chain Link as I as I came into the room. And uh it's funny cuz I think uh Fake World Assets has done something like over 90% of VRF volume for Chain Link since it launched.

>> Yeah. Yep. >> So I I I think it's like really interesting because I know people have been talking obviously about um Ethereum and and all the transactions gone on there, but like I think it's really cool because it's also probably helping chain link as well. And so VRF is the the randomized functionality. Um and so maybe that's a good place to start. Um you know, Chainlink has this like verifiable random function. Uh quick backstory on why I actually know anything at all about verifiable randomness is because I started in Bitcoin playing poker online. They had a verifiable shuffle and randomizer right there where you could check the hash, which was very very fascinating to me back in 2016. Anyway, so chain link provides this verifiable randomness to

protocols like fake world assets. Maybe you know when we're exploring fake world assets, we can just talk about how it's incorporated and it'll branch out from there. Like why is this an important mechanism and component to fake world assets and then you know please feel free to expand uh to fake world assets more broadly. >> Okay, cool. So I'm going to give you my understanding of it because I'm like I'm not part of the team. I'm just like, you know, somebody that's uh yoloing into the into the token and and whatnot. But uh for so basically like are you famili if you you have to be familiar with gotcha mechanics, right? So the way a gacha machine works is you spend some amount of money you don't know what you're going to get. Think of it almost as like as an NFT mint, but maybe it

could be a lot of times it's been it's been really catching fire with trading cards and collectibles, right? Where let's say you spend $50, $100 for a pack, you're going to get a card. you don't know what that card is going to be worth. Anywhere between $ five dollar or let's say $50 and $1,000 or whatever it is, right? And there's some distribution on that. >> You can then immediately sell that pack back to the uh the website at let's some percentage on the dollar somewhere between like let's say 85 cents to 90 cents on the dollar and get that instant liquidity and then go back to pulling and playing again hoping you get that chase card, right? That's the way like most gotcha mechanics work, right? So obviously in all those scenarios there

there is randomness there right and so um you know I think maybe on some sites you trust that the site has it right this is crypto so it's always trust but verify so you know obviously utilizing an onchain VRF that people can go and audit um if they don't think it's fair or whatever it's onchain and I it's funny because I had experience with this personally when uh we did our blackbox drop at 90cc a couple years ago where somebody actually did call us out for not being fair and we're like dude we we use the chain link VRF so >> nice >> you can like go and audit it like you know what I mean like it's it's it's there so um it adds that layer obviously of trust um on there so that's why like

I think uh not only fake world assets but probably other gotcha sites use some version of a VRF maybe not chain link but you know from somebody else what I found really interesting about fake world assets is that in all these gotacha mechanics generally like you go and play and you're hoping that you pull something uh and like you get that like great like payout or whatever or maybe you're hoping to farm a token or whatever and you're hoping that you know you don't what you lose is offset and more gained by like some sort of token drop classic like crypto mechanics >> what I thought really interesting about fake world assets is that I can deposit NF NFTs. Anybody can deposit NFTs as

long as they're whitelisted and you can technically become the house, right? So instead of pulling and hoping you get that that win, you can deposit and you earn a yield from from every spin uh based on you know how many spins whether it gets pulled or not. And then the only thing you really have the ri the risk there is right is if it gets pulled early, right? So, like there's a distribution curve of like, hey, like you're this is supposed to get picked uh pulled every one out of X spins based on the amount of ETH that's backed. Um, and if that happens faster, then like that's just unlucky. And you know, if it happens longer, then you're lucky. But like there there's yield there. And that's like >> what I think to me has been like the really cool awesome thing about this

protocol in general. I don't know if you guys have been like messing around with it at all. >> I have not, but I top blasted the [ __ ] out of it. uh like four days [laughter] ago on FOMO. Um I also think that the name fake world assets is hilarious because we've we've created this whole real world asset thing, right? Like, oh, we're going to tokenize all the real world assets, >> but like what is a real world asset? You know, they're just assets. So, it's kind of a meme in of itself. >> That's like the same thing with like NFTs, right? When people are like, "Oh, this is an NFT." I'm like, "Well, like everything's an NFT, right? like all three of us could have this hat, but if my hat has a coffee stain on it, >> like it's not fungeable with your hats.

So, it's like it's the same thing. It's like we're coming like full circle, I feel like. >> And and and it also feels like, you know, the snake eating its tail and, you know, crypto is kind of like making, you know, fun of itself, which I think is hilar going to be hilarious to the insides insiders and maybe the outsiders. >> Well, yeah. It's like, let's take NFTts and then let's add like a gambling speculative element to them just like >> Well, yeah. I mean, like to that point, right? Like I think crypto crypto it's it's kind of like taking the mask off of like it's like everything's gambling, right? Like prediction markets, meme coins, gotcha. Like these are all like different versions of gambling and it's almost like it's like you walk into the casino like which game do you want to play? Right. Right.

>> You know, it's like do you want to play the slot machine? Do you want to play like the roulette table? Like blackjack, whatever it is. And so it's just like another form of like a game. I and I think you know it's funny because now you see all these things online uh people are less invested in the stock market they're cashing out their 401ks and going in sports gambling but like in totality that you know the financial education that gets leveled up like people can choose to play whatever game they want. They can choose to play a game like the stock market that happens to have the odds in their favor. They're going to win more often. They're going to win less sizably by an order of magnitude. And then the risk appetite of people is just going to induce them to go play these ridiculous games because

it's not enough. Like the gains that they can get in the stock market just aren't enough for some of the risk appetite of people out there. >> Well, I mean I I agree with you traditionally speaking, but I mean if you look at the stock market over the last 12 months, right? They're moving like me. You know what I mean? Like it's it's kind of crazy. >> Yeah. So G Money, what is the token use case or value proposition? Like the fake world assets like you know we got Mr. Duka top blast here my co-host you know but then actually >> they said hyperlquid of gasha I was like all right that's all I need done >> and so you explained the protocol but how does that tie into the token >> yeah so um a portion of every spin goes into buying back the token some of it

goes to the team some of like I think the majority of it I I don't know the exact numbers obviously it can be changed it's not um uh fixed programmatically like forever so it can change over time but I think it's something I think right Now it's like um man I don't know the exact numbers but a portion of it goes obviously to the people that are supplying the uh the J like the prize pool a portion of it goes to buying back the token and burning it so creating some buy pressure and a portion of it goes to the team uh to kind of keep them obviously incentivized longterm and aligned for uh for building. So that's pretty much kind of like the the circular loop. And now that's like the initial loop, right? I

know people are talking about like maybe uh using FWA for spins. I personally don't know how I totally feel about that, but you know, I'm just like I'm going to I'm going to play the game as uh as it lies, like as new stuff comes out, but like I know people are talking about kind of creating your own pool. So like I have a big NFT collection. what is what if I wanted to kind of >> like do a pool of just my NFTts and people are willing to to kind of take spins on theirs. So I I think there's like a lot of optionality that can be done on it. And like I said, I think the thing the reason why like um hyperlquid gotcha makes sense is that to me at least is that okay, let's say I'm on

collector's crypt, I pull a card, I'm like great, I don't want to sell it, I want to keep it in my collection. I can now that I can bridge that over from Salana to FWA using the emblem vault and then I can deposit that into the fake world assets vault and I can earn yield on that Pokemon card that I otherwise would never have earned yield on, right? like and like I like so to take like I've been looking at it from my NFT collection where I like just put up a bunch of NFTts paired it with some ETH and I've been earning I think like you know it's it obviously varies but like I think it's like a 50 to 70% APY after farming rewards stopped. So like it's

still pretty good >> and it's a risk of losing them though. So you have to selective Yeah. So like I'm not putting like my ape in there, right? >> Your profile pick or anything. So, you know, but like I'm putting stuff in there that I'm like, hey, if it gets taken, like I'm okay with it. Like I I'll I won't lose any sleep at it. But, you know, it's earning yield in an otherwise up until this point my my biggest issue uh with NFTs has been like it's been very capital inefficient, right? Like I have a large NFT collection. >> I can't do anything to earn yield with it. This is like the first time that there's some sort of sustainable yield for NFTs in my opinion.

>> Yeah. Um because that I mean this thing has to get inventory, right? And so like in order for people to come to the platform and have NFTs to pull, they're crowdsourcing in NFT inventory from everyone who wants to create pools and put their NFTs as deposits, >> right? So like you can't create a custom pool just yet. I think that's something that the team is working on, but like the first iteration of it was you put up an NFT, you pair it with ETH, right? And so then people like let's say then you spin and you win the NFT. You can decide to either take the NFT or take the ETH at 85 85% of what's backed in the ETH.

Right? So if it's backed by one ETH, you can get 085 ETH and I would get the NFT and that 0.15 ETH returned to me >> or not the 0.15 ETH, sorry. That goes, >> right? And don't don't the NFTs have to be liquid? Like is there enough liquidity on these NFTs in order to like, you know, cash them in for E? >> No. No, because like when you when you put it up, you pair it, right? Think of it as like uh you're pairing in an AMM, right? So I have the I have the NFT and I put up one ETH, right? And I pair that into the into my let's say position. You pull it. You have the option to either take the NFT because maybe you want it or and you think you could sell it at a better price or you just take the ETH

immediately, right? So that's where the immediate liquidity comes from. >> You take your ETH back that you put up originally to spin the spin the Gotcha. >> No, no, no. I I put up ETH as I put up the NFT as inventory and I pair it with ETH, >> right? Okay. So that >> as a liquidity provider >> as a liquidity. So I'm basically doing like a liquidity pool for this one individual NFT. You pull it and you win my NFT. >> You can choose between taking the ETH that's paired with it or taking the NFT. >> Okay.

>> And that's where the instant liquidity comes from. >> And is it always one ETH or is there >> Right. You can put more ETH for more valuable NFTs would pair with more ETH. >> Yeah. And so you you would put as little as 005 ETH. >> Okay. >> So it supports a wide range of NFTTS spanning from very invaluable to very valuable ones because you can kind of set the price at which you're willing to provide this NFT as liquidity. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then obviously >> Yeah. And then obviously like the more ETH that's backed by it, the lower the odds of it getting pulled right within the pool. And that's dynamic.

>> Okay. Okay. >> Y because that Yeah. Is this all just in one smart contract? All the NFTs in the ETH. Is it just It's just one liquidity pool basically. It's like one smart contract. >> I couldn't tell you. >> Yeah. I think it's got to be. >> Yeah. Well, what makes you say >> Yeah. That just seems like the biggest risk here. I mean, obviously, it's just like I mean, everyone's tweaking about uh AI and smart contract security. Um, but I mean, that this is onchain. This is crypto. This is what you deal with. Um, I'm just curious like if you think about what the premium is that you're paying to deposit because I saw his tweet. I think it was from Cirrus. He was like, "Oh, the the owner of Yuga Labs has all of these apes that he hasn't, you know, touched in years. You

know, why not put them into fake world assets, make, you know, earn yield on them?" Um and I and you know I was kind of thinking about why not okay maybe you get pulled but you know that's that or maybe you get exploited and you lose them all but you know that's kind of like the only two of like why he wouldn't do that. >> What makes you what makes you say that these things are all in the same smart contract? Because if you think about like a unis swap v2 for the basic example it's an AMM order router but all of those liquidity pools are in different contracts.

>> Yeah. like all the the liquidity is segmented, right, based on each pool. >> Yeah. As Goney says, above his pay grade, above above mine as well. >> Like um I I think to to that point, right, like it just kind of like everything in crypto, right? The longer something's been around, the greater the TVL, the bigger the honeypot that kind of like ensures the security of it. And so I think in the first version of like cuz I wasn't a day one uh spinner or like I I didn't get involved really till it was like around 15 or 16 million. So it was out for a couple days at that point. But I think the first uh I think there was an exploit on the first launch of it >> and then they just re they relaunched it afterwards and reodited the contracts

and and whatnot and then >> yeah, >> you know, launched again and it's it's been going well so far. I think the TVL on platform I think was like a little over 2 million when the last last I checked I think. I'm not sure though. >> Yeah. >> I love this kind of you know this is the kind of stuff that only comes out and gets launched during bare markets. >> Yeah. >> That's just when people are most creativity. Yeah. >> Yeah. That I mean listen like the thing that I like the most about this it like I think this is one of the coolest things I've seen on chain like since DeFi summer. >> You know what I mean? Like I'm just like whoa this is like so cool. I had never even thought about it. I remember like when I when it first like um when it

first like made sense to me like I immediately like DM'd Rhynotic and I was like yo this is genius like >> yeah like >> do you think fake do you think fake world assets is going to bring back the NFT market? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's going to bring back Ethereum, you know, like all like I mean it's it's like the most of the transaction volume on Ethereum for, you know, I think since it initially since it launched, I'm sure it's it's definitely slowed down, but >> um like I I again like as I've been thinking about it, I'm like, you know, I know Rhynotic like tweeted it last week was, you know, one it's it's been a ton of transactions on ETH, a bunch of transactions on chain link, you know, like what other ET ccentric protocols like are being involved in here and like you you need stuff like

this because I think like when you look at like obviously um tokenization, real world assets, stocks, all that stuff is coming on chain. That stuff's not sexy, right? Like how do you like really get people excited about crypto? Like NFTTS was by far the most mainstream crypto has ever been. It was by far the most fun crypto ever was. And I think stuff like that like like this even like a gotcha mechanic where ultimately in like you know how far away are we from people being able to download an app spin something like I I've been thinking of ideas along these lines of like you know NFTTS are back you can like win like if NFTs are worthless but you have a shot at winning I think uh the cheap the the the most expensive grail on on FWA right

now is like six or 700,000 right? So it's like, >> you know, that's that that sounds like it's a little more than worthless, you know. >> Imagine spinning like, >> you know, half an ETH and getting that, >> right? >> Yeah. Well, not even the spins are point the the spins are 0.1, right? So >> Oh, every every spin's the same cost. >> Yeah. >> And it it moves dynamically based on the pool. >> And so do do you think if ETH is $5,000 again, you're going to they're going to probably adjust that or are we spending 500 bucks a spin?

>> Uh, I'm sure. I'm sure there's like I think this is where like cuz people would like this is what you see on classic gotcha sites where there's like the $25 pack, the $50 pack, the thousand, right? And then like the odds are different based on that. So, I'm sure we'll probably see some sort of segmentation like that. >> And you're totally right though about like this is this type of like, oh, I spun $1,000 and I got a $80,000 NFT out of it. Screenshot Tik Tok. I mean, this is what like Anom and and the guys are going on about where it's like my wallet has 100 mil in it. This, you know, last week it had zero. Like, what happened, right? Same type of vibe here.

>> Yeah. Like, I think also it's kind of to what we were saying before, right? It's like what type of gambling game do you want to play, right? Like how like personally like I'm not a memecoin guy cuz I don't like being glued to my screen 24/7 where it's like I take my I take my eyes off the screen for a second and I'm down like 90%. That's not a game I like to play. It's It's for some people. It's not for me. And I But I do think like >> Yeah. I mean, some people do. There's like a whole talk about it on Twitter this week. But like there I But I What I do think is people want to play like a casual game where you're like, "Hey, I want to risk 50 bucks to see if I can make like a thousand and I'll spin it

and I have a good experience and, you know, I don't lose everything when I don't win. I have a shot at even like breaking even or or making a little bit of money so I can play again." Like those are the games that people I think people want to play, right? So it's pick your poison. >> It's the reason the lottery is as you know it's as big as any of this, you know, as big as some asset classes. >> So to to that point, one of the things that I suggested uh and I think I hope they're working on it is some sort of progressive jackpot so that like a portion of every spin goes into it, right? is like I personally never play the lottery, but when I see like a Powerball like lottery like get to above like 500 mil and I'm like walking past

like the gas station or the grocery store, I'm like, "All right, like I'll spend like 10 bucks on it, right?" Like >> why not, right? But like% a normal lottery like I'm like, "Yeah, no." Like 50 million like not enough for me, right? Like meanwhile, obviously it's life-changing money, but like um I think it's like the same type of thing like if there's some sort of progressive >> uh jackpot NFT like at like at some point like are you willing to spend like a hundred bucks for a shot at like you know $5 million or like whatever however big a gas like most people would. >> G Money I I love it. I love pers. I love memes and I love this gotcha idea because what it does as someone who is just not even trying to spend much time

on the computer looking at screens on charts and markets and having to make active trades much more than like a couple times a month. I mean this has just been like a culmination of three cycles of accumulating capital of understanding how to kind of move move in the markets you know you five figures, six figures, seven figures, etc. Right? And so it's just kind of like different strokes for different folks. But what's exciting to me is, you know, it's still so early for FWA, but if I can start to kind of like, you know, ease in, you know, you know, couple grand, couple tens of thousands, six figures into the the what I call like the house, which is like the hype token and the pump token and maybe the FWA token. What I'm playing for is I'm

playing for like a three to five to maybe higher like a 3 to 5x maybe higher on some size. And I'm kind of benefiting from all of the folks who are trying to do from a,000 to 800,000 because I I understand probabilities. It's not my game. It's unlikely to happen, but someone's going to do it. Someone's going to hit for 800x on this app and it's going to be [ __ ] insane. Andy, right? So >> let me let me inject some hopeopium into the thesis you're describing because I was at a conference. This was going back like six plus months ago. I was at a conference and I was uh chatting with Joe Luben, co-founder of Ethereum from back in the day. Uh this was pre-DTCC

tokenization protocol things. And he was describing how the DTCC is working on this. And I don't want to put on my suit too much. We're talking about fake world assets here. But he was describing how tokenized equities because they have KYC metadata things associated with them, they don't fit into an ERC20 token standard. Well, I said, "What token standard do they fit into?" He said, "Potentially NFTts, right? That is what they're experimenting is the token standard for tokenized equities." So I could actually see how hilarious would it be fake world assets becomes the hub for real world assets and becomes a place where you actually get NFTts as we know them as well as tokenized equities.

>> The um no I so >> imagine that 100k in Nvidia tokenized and it can be [laughter] and you earn on it. >> Interestingly enough there's been a couple forks that are doing tokenized uh assets. I I think most of them are on Robin Hood, but like you know messing around with these tokenized uh equities on different chains, which I think is also something that's been really interesting that's been happening uh in the space. But to your point, Robbie, like the uh the second most expensive asset on FWA is a Pokemon card >> is like and it's a real life Pokemon card, right? So, it's like >> I think it was pulled from Collector's Crypt >> uh and moved and moved over via Emblem

and now it's in there and it's farming. I I've heard I've heard rumors of of other cards potentially going on there, like very high value cards cuz like again to to to your guys's point, right? Like I want I want to be the house. I want to own the token >> like that like gets me paid because people want to gamble, right? Like I think I think I think everybody likes that from like when you put on your investor when your investor hat you're like yeah give me more volume give people what they want and like let's make money off of it right and I that to me like at $20 million FDV >> it's kind it's like it's a good bet like I personally right like I >> yeah like I'm interested to play the

game like I'm interested to trade per like I'm interested in trading memes like I it's it's all fun with a thousand bucks there five grand there whatever little you whatever. But you know, you put on size in these things or you put on some portion of your portfolio into these like the owners of the casinos of the best onchain speculative environments and as long as the tokconomics are half decent and the revenues and fees are getting, you know, buybacks or not being just dumped or whatever it is, I mean, it's a pretty it's pretty straightforward investment, >> right? No, I I totally agree and that's why I really like I think there was a tweet yesterday of um somebody pointed out that I think if you were to value it on an annualized basis of like how much

buybacks have been done I think it's trading at like 0.5% revs or some you know uh 0.5 revs like revenue to uh FTV ratio. So it's like incredibly cheap uh obviously compared to all other tokens uh in in crypto even you know even like the revenue metal ones. I met ones. Yeah. Yeah. >> That is so funny that that has >> proliferated so much. Uh Kenan says, "Imagine buying stock packs." Yeah, that's what we just said. Chilio wants to know your quotron thesis. I don't even know what that is.

>> Oh, wow. Okay. All right. I I love it. So, that I mean, listen, this is this thing's under 500K, so I I don't know if you want me [laughter] talking about it on air, but um I was hit up I was hit up by a couple smart NFT guys. It seems really interesting and you know been buying it. >> Nice. Okay. Quoton interesting. Yeah, we don't do too many 500k [ __ ] around here on the show, but [laughter] >> good to have you. Um, [snorts] so I guess I mean how big are we talking here for FWA? Like if you had to say 6 months from now, a year from now, what would have to go right for your bull case here? And like what is your maybe like conservative case?

>> Um, yeah. I would say that for me like the number one thing that I think matters the most on FWA is spins and DAUs and like how do you get that you know number up and to the right. So I think the the thing that I like that I've seen so far and this is what I like about Ethereum in general. I think Ethereum is like probably the best ecosystem that uh does this better than any other ecosystem is one there's a lot of great creativity from builders in Ethereum. I think like the most interesting things that come out of crypto for the most part come out of ETH and then when those things are built, people don't get me wrong, there's always forks, but people would rather build on top of it than like fork it,

right? And so that's what I've seen that's really interesting uh with FWA is that um immediately uh somebody launched mega rip, right? Which is where we can all pull our ETH together. So you can put up like 0.1 ETH and then you get your Prata share of like the pool as it ripped I think it ri it it did $60,000 worth of buys its first day and like I I contributed I think like 0.1 E or something and I got like I think I got back like N092 so like I lost 8%. But like I had like a shot at winning the jackpot, right? It's the same thing like in Lotto where you're like let's pull this together and win the jackpot, right?

>> But isn't that kind of gaming it though? Like if you're like, put it the other way around. Imagine you're like, "You know what? [ __ ] it. I'm putting my PFP on this thing." And then all of a sudden you like onchain Goney just put his PFP into this. Let's do the biggest possible, you know, raid like CTO and let's, you know, let's get his PFP and they put like $600,000 together, right? Isn't that kind of like collusion of the game? >> No, because it like the odds get adjusted, right? So, it's like there's still, let's say there's like a one in 20 million chance of like my PFP getting pulled and like $600,000 of fees get like $600,000 worth of buys happen. I'm getting paid every single time it

doesn't hit, right? And so there's still like let's say that one in 20 million chance of it hitting, right? So, it's like a very minuscule chance. And like you're just playing the odds there. Like I actually tweeted out I'm like I think somebody should build like some sort of insurance protocol that you can pay to ensure if your if your NFT gets pulled early, right? Cuz like let's say I did put my PFP on there and I'm like, >> okay, if I get pulled if it's 1 in 20 million and I get pulled in one in 20 million, so be it. I I will have hopefully made my money back and then some by then. But if it gets pulled at one in five million, >> I like I I like I'd buy insurance to like make myself whole so that like the the the loss isn't as bad, right?

>> Yeah, exactly. It's like selling call options on your on your on your asset and it turns these NFTs into productive assets and prints yield on them and it goes for any asset. I mean this would increase the potential yield of any asset make it productive and scale it because it's another utilization mechanism like you know take a stock for instance right people don't loan it out very often only when people are going short this is a whole another dimension a whole another marketplace where you would need to provide those assets as liquidity people are going to pay yield for that liquid for that asset as liquidity as it like it could you know ramp up the amount of yield that you're getting on some of these assets That's G. What happens if it gets pulled though

in this like in this big ticket, you know, uh, era? Like if if someone pulled together a bunch of funds, they end up pulling like your PFP or, you know, gigantic Pokemon card. They just cash it in for ETH. What if they want to split the actual card? >> Well, they just choose the ETH option, right? >> Yeah, you would choose the E. You choose the ETH option. >> I remember from the card, >> but if it's a group, how do you take collectively? They can vote or something. They take the card. So, I think the way Mega Rip did it was, let's say, like they they had this entire pool and then I think they ran like a 24-hour auction where if you were a member of the pool, you had a chance to actually buy that actual NFT in an auction format and then obviously the proceeds of that

would get split up among the pool. If not, it would all go back and they would take the ETH. >> Makes sense. >> This is interesting. >> Fascinating. Well, I am uh I I I top blasted on FOMO. I I'm in. This is how I like to do these things. I like to add it. Now's I literally >> It's down like 16%. >> Now, buy my bags. [laughter] >> I know. I bought I bought some more this morning. I bought like I feel like every day I wake up and I buy a little more. I like I have position. It's onchain. So, like, you know, I I I'm bullish on it. I think go up.

>> This is an ETH heavy episode. Uh, we've got uh Joseph Shalom of Sharp Link uh coming on right after you. >> All right, great guy. >> We'll have to uh we'll have to ask him about this. Um, last thing, man, give us a shout out about your show, uh, Full Port. Uh, tell us about your new show and tell our audience where they can come and watch you guys. >> Yeah, for sure. So, uh, Hunter Oral and myself, you know, we've been like, you know, obviously buddies for for a couple years now since early NFT days, and we've always talked about doing something together. And a couple months ago, he was like, "Hey, like, let's do like a live stream or a podcast together." And I'm like, "I don't know."

So, I'm like, I don't know if I want to like commit to it or, you know, if I even want to do it cuz I did have a podcast um a couple years ago during like NFT uh time. And like towards the end of it, I was just like so burnt out with it and I'm like, ah, like what am I doing with this? Whatever. And so, um, but I was like, yeah, like I had taken some time off after I wound down 90C and I'm like, all right, I'm down to like just kind of talk and shoot the [ __ ] and talk give my market takes and and stuff on that. and we started doing it like two months ago and it's been like gaining and picking up in popularity and views and stuff like that. So, it's been encouraging and it's been fun. So, we

originally started off doing it once a week. Now we're doing it twice a week on uh Tuesday and Thursday mornings at 10:30 and you know you can find us uh it's I link it in in my profile Goney NFT but it's called Fullport Show on on Twitter and uh yeah like we just come on and talk about markets both like Tradfi uh crypto you know like obviously the last couple months and weeks we've been talking a lot about AI um even like miners and you also like stuff that I've been doing with AI like kind of like you know just messing around with this stuff. By the way, if you guys get a chance, >> check out Grockbot.

>> I'm like, >> I I started using it yesterday. I think it came out like two days ago. >> Y >> very good. Like the the UI is the the experience is very good. So, I highly recommend you guys give it a shot. >> G Money, always a pleasure. >> Likewise. >> Thanks for being a part of the show. Uh always h always down to have you back and glad that you started your own pre-bull. You just will you'll get addicted to seeing the growth and trying new things on clips and on titles and on thumbnails and on posting and guests and no guests and chat and no chat and it's just it's a whole science and it's take I mean we've been doing it now live for about a year and a quarter >> and we are really hitting a stride now finally and it's deep so we're pretty

excited about what's coming in the bowl and uh same for you man. >> All right, cool. Thank you. I appreciate I'll probably hit you guys up and uh ask for for any advice or pointers you have cuz >> it's all new to me, right? So, it's like but it's been fun. It's it's a cool learning process. I actually just bought my uh like my camera and like a better bike and all that cuz I'm like ah [ __ ] I'm like we're going real on this. So, it got me >> it never stops. I literally this is the first day with this sign up. So, it's just continuous. >> It's still changing, you know. So, all right. Thanks for thank thanks for being a part of it, man.

>> Awesome. Thanks for having me, guys. Good weekend, buddy. See you next time. Thanks man. >> Bye. >> Bye. >> All righty, guys. Uh, as you guys know, I did top blast uh FWA. I'm down a little bit on that. Tom Lisa 60K 2030. Yes, we got Joe Luben on. I purchased additional cheaper shares today per circle behind the show. All we've been doing is accumulate accumulate accumulate. Um, and yeah, I mean, it's it's a good time to be an accumulator. a massive thunderstorm brewing outside my office right now. I can hear the thunder and it feels like the bull market is coming. It feels like it's just brewing underneath the surface. I think you're absolutely right. I mean, that is what we've been

preaching on this show has been accumulate, build positions, just stay patient and uh and continue uh to survive because in hindsight, you know, 6 months, a year, two years from now, we're going to be looking back on these market conditions and just thanking the market, thanking the universe for providing us. >> Is that the thunder that I just heard? >> Thunder. >> It is. >> Yeah, lightning is brewing. We've got Keen of of LTO, Joseph Shalom of Sharplink, uh, talking about ETH staking, treasuries. I mean, this is quite a timely episode. I know we're a couple minutes past here, but there has been a lot of rumbling about lowering the ETH issuance rate, the staking rate.

Um, there has been rumblings about economic security, about what this means for Ethereum, for large holders, uh, for protocols like Lido and public publicly traded companies like Sharlink. Great episode here ahead. Let's get Keen up. Let's get Joseph up. Um, and it's a beautiful Friday in New York. >> The public discourse has been hot and so it feels like Ethereum is like it's things are brewing again. Uh, Keen, uh, and and Joseph, good to see you guys. Thanks for coming on. >> Great to see you again.

>> I think the last time you skipped us for your sister's wedding, so this is going to be a banger episode. [laughter] >> She is happily married. Yes, I uh was missing you guys, but uh I was I was watching the stream as she was walking down the aisle, so I think I'm [laughter] we're up to speed. Um and and like Andy said in the intro, I mean, there's plenty to chat about. Obviously, uh first and foremost is I believe it's $200 million of ETH that was staked through Lido via Shar Link. Um congratulations. Let's start there. Um Joseph, maybe you could tell us, you know, why this was timely. Why did you choose right now to do this staking move and and why choose Lido as a partner?

>> Sure. >> So, Lido is the largest and most liquid uh staking protocol uh in the Ethereum ecosystem. I think over 16 billion and from day one, we've been making at Sharlink our Ethereum productive. We staked nearly 100% starting last June and we're building a portfolio of ETH from simple staking to liquid restaking tokens into DeFi. And the announcement with Lido is taking a pretty big sleeve of our treasury 200 million out about of about 1.7 billion so that we can use it to do things that are portable and composable. And for people in crypto they completely understand what that means. But for traditional investors

um in crypto you can take ETH you in this case wrapped ETH coming from Lido and you can use it for other purposes in the ecosystem. In this case we're going to use a bulk of that to put it into a new Galaxy Sharlink fund so we can stay liquid in Lido directional in ETH and then make it productive on chain. So it's actually quite exciting. Um so we're really happy to partner with Lido. We do tons of diligence and um it it was an easy choice for us when you think about liquidity and composability.

>> Yeah. Uh and Keem from your side, I mean please uh you guys have been doing this a long time. Uh one of the leaders in ETH staking uh tell us about >> absolutely the leader in ETH staking no doubt. So tell us how this ultimately came together and uh what things have been like from your perspective. >> Sure. Well, firstly, like we are incredibly excited to be working with Joseph and the rest of the Sharp Link team. I think we were speaking to the team late last year. Um, having initial conversations, educating the guys and what we're doing. Um, we're incredibly fortunate. One of the gentlemen on Joseph's team, Cam, I think he's the head of DeFi for Sharink. Uh, he was incredibly knowledgeable about what Lida

was doing, the benefits of using ste and wrap teeth as collateral liquidity. So, it's been absolutely fantastic to kind of build a deeper relationship with the Sharpink team. And I suppose to maybe answer your question or your original question more directly like I think this is just an incredibly strong signal for institutions more broadly like the commitment that kind of sharp link and Joseph has shown to kind of move and allocate 200 million which is a significant amount of capital like Joseph mentioned um into a battle tested protocol like Lido is just a tremendous endorsement for what we're trying to do and for me like we're definitely seeing a common team from these digital asset treasury companies and different asset

managers that they don't want to sacrifice between earning yield and trying to maintain liquidity. We're seeing these institutions come to Lido because they want both. Um, so again, I can't really emphasize enough how excited we are to work with Joseph and the rest of the team and I'm incredibly proud of all the hard work both sides have put into this to get us to this point. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think I mean Joe from the perspective of really trying to maximize you know ETH per share from the Sharplink um perspective when you think about allocating capital whether it be uh through this initiative or other similar previous ones like through um Lineia and through that kind of

initiative that you did with Joe Luben over there and kind of just looking to maximize maximize ETH per share while obviously you know kind of you know navigating onchain risk smart contract risks, regulatory uh and compliance risks. Uh how do you think about more broadly the strategy as it has changed throughout the last several months? Uh and then looking forward about the strategy to maximize ETH per share and I think that'll take us into the whole issuance conversation as well. So to us it's very simple. Unlike Bitcoin who I'm a huge fan of, ETH is a natively productive asset. So if you own it and you own it on behalf of shareholders, you damn well make better make it fully productive. And for us, that doesn't

mean just achieving the Ethereum staking rate. We use Caesar as our benchmark. To me, that's the risk-free rate that you want to actually try to exceed. Um, we call that alpha. And, uh, it's actually portable alpha in the sense that the sources of that excess return can come from lots of different places. It can actually come from optimizing uh the validators and the staking operations you use. It could come from [clears throat] allocations to DeFi. And earlier this year, we allocated 200 million uh through EtherFi. And then it can also come by putting it into fund structures like we're doing with Galaxy.

And the reason why we purchased 200 million of LIDO is you could have funded that type of investment with dollars or stable coins, but you wouldn't be directional ETH. And if your conviction is that Ethereum is the future settlement layer and you your whole purpose of your digital asset treasury is to give investors exposure to ETH, you can own Lido, you can pledge it and you can be directional ETH. So that that's very easy. And then the ETH we earn in staking rewards, you just put back into the treasury and it compounds itself. When you talk about risk and compliance, we were the first to go out into DeFi. But we didn't do it by leaving our qualified custodian. And in

the case of this sleeve, this 200 million allocation to Lido, we're taking that token and keeping it in Anchorage Digital, a federally chartered bank. So you don't have to compromise on smart contract risk, security risk. go into a web 3 wallet and leave your custodian. You could do it all uh as institutions do in trusted counterparties. So, um we're really excited. I think you're going to see a new wave of productivity coming from digital assets treasuries. Some are going to choose to build staking operations. Some people like us will choose to be the most sophisticated deployers of our ETH because it's permanent capital. And maybe later we can talk about what it means to have

permanent capital versus what you see in crypto which is a lot of short-term mercenary capital. >> Yeah, we we've certainly seen uh you know the merrygoround of merc mercenary capital uh as it you know goes through the L1's it goes through DeFi uh the entrance of permanent capital is a is a welcome uh occurrence. Um I I think you know 8363 this EIP that was proposed around the issuance schedule uh you know caught a lot of people by surprise. Um it felt like for once the Ethereum community actually came to consensus on a thing and it was against this thing.

Um I I didn't see too many positive takes on it. Uh Joe, on a post August 8th, you said it would undermine DeFi and erase the native yield advantage driving billions in institutional adoption. Maybe you can just like just from the institutional perspective, you know, you guys are pioneers and showcasing what it means to have institutional Ethereum access and exposure. Why is this so detrimental? At the face of it, I guess if I were to strongman, you know, the proposal, it would be bringing down issuance, less supply inflation would mean uh, you know, overall uh, a higher ETH price. Why is that the wrong thesis, the wrong

perspective to have from someone who's on the ground working with Ethereum day in and day out? >> Yeah, I I wrote a piece and I wanted to be very thoughtful and I want to start by saying the folks who proposed that um, are not bad people. They actually have ETH and Ethereum at their heart. I find them to be a more academic crew. Um, but when I wrote the title of my piece, I tried to keep it as simple and uh, digestible as possible. The wrong proposal at exactly the wrong time. Why do I believe that? Ethereum has been um, in a bit of a leadership crisis for the last 6 months to a year. It doesn't have the Salana treasury with built-in BD. It

doesn't have, you know, vast swaths of token they can give out to win business. What it does have is 11 years of exactly what institutions are looking for, security, liquidity uh and trust. And the reason why this is exactly the wrong time to mess with a monetary power uh policy of Ethereum is one this uh Ethereum staking rate call it dynamically in the mid2% range is essentially the risk-free benchmark for most of DeFi borrowing and lending and DeFi was built on Ethereum. Ethereum has a massive moat around DeFi. Why would you want to undermine one of the most

successful elements? And that DeFi, the swapping, lending, borrowing that that Ethereum dominates with that risk-free Ethereum staking rate then allows many more stable coins and tokenized assets to enter the ecosystem. So one is you'd undermine the core strength. Second is there's a view that the staking rate is just giving out rewards to validators and big institutions. But as you see about a third of all ETH being staked, that money is not leaving the ecosystem.

It's going right back into it. What do I mean by that? Sharpink takes a significant portion of our ETH rewards, puts it back into DeFi, puts it back into blue chip protocols, pledges and invests in projects like Lido. It's permanent capital. It's not being taken out and dividended to investors. And then the final thing I'll say is really is a differentiating factor from Bitcoin. If you're an institutional investor and you want exposure to the future of crypto, you can own Bitcoin, but you get no yield out of it. One of the reasons why institutions really like Ethereum is the fact that it has a

native productivity. And if you want to get the upside of a network plus yield productivity, it is massively differentiating. And when Ethereum is finally on offense and winning 55% of stable coins, over 50% of RWA, it dominates DeFi, why would you want to rug pull the monetary policy that is the future of growth of the ecosystem? So again, we don't think these people are ill. We do like the idea of scarcity and some limit on staking, but wrong proposal at exactly the wrong time.

>> Absolutely. Um yeah, >> just kind of passing to your side from the light of perspective from what you've seen over the years of liquid staking, staking, you know, through through the merge 2022 just been just a ton of monetary policy changes, economics, right? the the old the the industry is kind of going through this coming of age of trying to look at these blockchains more like a a ledger and and and a business with with a profit and loss looking to kind of uh you know turn these things into you know very investable assets perhaps missing the whole you know store value and monetary you know premium thesis here that I think a lot of Ethereum uh folks have been you know pioneering and pushing forward from your from a latter

perspective do you agree with Joe here what is some other kind of nuances that you think are uh a bit a bit a bit important to to note. >> Yeah, like I would definitely echo and agree everything that Joseph has said. Like I I think the approach is misguided. I think obviously from a lighter perspective, we're we're not in favor of this. Um, I think the idea that cutting issuance and effectively cutting staking rewards to nothing doesn't necessarily mean it will solve the problem that it's trying to solve. From an institutional perspective, we were conducting interviews over the past kind of 2 months. I think I spoke to maybe 10 or 15 different institutions,

tier one managing billions if not trillions. And I haven't met anyone that is supportive of this idea. I think everyone knows that you're effectively like you're shooting yourself in the foot. Again, as Joseph mentioned, you're just making it incredibly easy for institutions to move to Salana. >> And the other big thing we've noticed, which is again critically important, is just to keep the network decentralized. We've met a lot of people where if the stake and rewards rate was to go down to 1 one and a half%. they don't see the point in running a community staking node helping to support decentralization because there's I suppose no meaningful upside to that there's a lot of effort and no reward and then the final thing I

would say from again speaking to different asset managers and ETF issuers they've spent millions launching these stake products lobbying governments there's been a huge amount of due diligence there's been an ecosystem launched over staking and the idea of cannibalizing it right now just doesn't make sense. The >> beautiful thing about Ethereum is that anyone can make this proposal. That is actually the beauty of the governance process. But the flip side of that is if it's not some technical change where the technical researchers uh need consensus.

This is a business model and monetary policy change, it requires consensus from the ecosystem and it's just simply not there. And I think the voices have been voiced and I think most of the voices have been moderate and reasonable and Ethereum aligned and not greedy and self-s serving. So I I think this has almost no chance of passing. But decentralized governance allows anyone to make these type of proposals and then others to you know democratically express their views. And that's the beauty of Ethereum. We're not dominated by one voice.

>> Yeah. And I think Rob may have some more specific questions about the proposal and and the nuances there. Just one quick thing. I is there anything that you guys would like to see with >> that was actually exactly my question. Andy, you know, people came out in force against this, but we didn't really hear from people as far as okay, is ETH issuance perfect right now? you would make no changes or if you were to have a perfect world and make changes and it were to go through, what would you do to ETH issuance and the monetary policy right now?

>> Yeah, Keen, you you want to start? >> Sure. >> Yeah. I think look, from my perspective, is Ethereum perfect? Absolutely not. Is issuance perfect? Again, not. But there's so many other things you could focus your attention on and make a more meaningful impact. Like at the end of the day, everyone wants to grow Ethereum adoption at an institutional and also at a retail or personal level. So for me, I just think more effort could be spent on making Ethereum more accessible, building applications on Ethereum that grows adoption. So again, for me, I just think people are spending their time and effort on a topic that's not exactly the most high on the priority list, and there's time better spent elsewhere.

And Joseph, anything from your perspective as maybe a consumer of ETH yield rather than a supplier? What what else would you be looking for? >> To be honest with you, at this moment when Ethereum feels like it's going on offense, look at the scoreboard and compare it across stable coin adoption, tokenized real world assets, and and DeFi. I would be spending my time and money, and I'm doing both to drive the institutional adoption. We're at a moment that matters. The world's largest institutions are going from tokenizing denovo or brand new products. When I was at BlackRock, we took a couple of years to plan and get our bidden to be the largest tokenized fund in the world, but

it took a couple of years. A year and a half after I left BlackRock, they're tokenizing existing funds, money market funds with $8 billion of existing assets. that is like 30% of all tokenization happening in one shot. And so I'd be very very focused on supporting those use cases. And then I'd also be very focused on um building a differentiated offering in Ethereum for Aentic. I know it sounds like a cliche, but if you're dominating stable coins, which is the money layer, you're dominating in tokenized real world assets, which is the asset exposure layer. It's not a new asset class. and DeFi and onchain finance is where a lot

of the execution is happening. The agentic layer is just the automation layer that's going to bring billions of new users to Ethereum. They may be agents, but they're users and they're going to transact and they want decentralized rail. So, I'd be focusing on that rather than messing with the protocol. I think that is the most important way to drive Ethereum adoption. And then when you get that level of transactions, the burn will pick up and you'll start seeing Ether be what it is, which is a really important trust commodity that you're going to kn onchain finance. So I'm I'm less focused on making technical changes to the protocol. I'm actually hoping we can put it in the hands of every person in the

world. >> Yeah. Um Keane something specifically with regards to Lido. You know Joe mentioned uh the exposure with the $200 million of ETH into the protocol as well as um you know there is Lido rewards that you know that you earn through staking with Lido. There's different programs. Obviously, enterprise and commercial deals are now a part of kind of Lido's institutional offering here, right? Not not needing to get into the details here, but kind of a separate uh tangent that I'm curious how you're thinking about is uh you know, we coined this term revenue meta. It's kind of a silly term, but it's what's happening where you've got these protocols that are earning a lot of actual revenue, right? some from some product market fit, [snorts] whether it's per whether

it's trading, whether it's yield, whether it's staking, whether it's stable coins, and they're kind of restructuring their token models around essentially treating token holders as first class citizens. And I want to say, Joe, that I think that's where this EIP is coming from is kind of from this kind of potentially short-lived pendulum swing in a bare market of, hey, we want to, you know, try to make these crypto assets more more attractive to investors by essentially evening out their emissions versus their uh kind of inflows, trying to kind of turn that into a positive. A lot of this, you know, stem from the administration uh that has previously been elected. did the Trump administration hyperl kind of came out did this you know huge buyback program and so you've got protocols like

Lido been very [snorts] very profitable profitable for a while but you have these emissions you have expenses you have all these things keen that investors are now coming to you and basically saying look we don't even want to really get involved unless we're looking at something that we're investing into a business where the equity is the token and the token holders are being treated as first- class citizens meaning buybacks meaning transparency meaning uh openness profit sharing, etc. And so I'm just curious, keen, what your current viewpoint is from the Lido perspective, the Lido token perspective, and just this this kind of rhetoric and current era of the token market in digital assets outside of Bitcoin and Ethereum, maybe you put

in something like a Zcash in there or some of other kind of like monetary assets, these onchain businesses, the way that the tokens are being um, you know, thought of now, how do you think about this from a lighter perspective? what changes are you making? What changes are you not making? How are you guys, you know, kind of going about uh this era? >> Um, yeah, it's it's quite a broad and I suppose there's a lot of different nuances to this and I think like anything in life, there's levels. I definitely view Lido as tier one battle tested. One thing that Lido is tremendously good at is getting feedback and listening to feedback. So, by that I mean the lighter research forum. anyone can go post give feedback and guidance and I can say again with absolute certainty the contributors in Lido they

do look at that and they take it seriously and I think that's been one point of criticism that's been raised a number of times against Lido where all the revenue is being generated from staking and in the ste and it's not being passed over to LDO token holders so one of the big actions that have taken place over the past year and that's really kind of ramped up over the past couple of months is uh LDO buyback program. So this is I suppose probably the first prong where we're trying to again increase the token price give I suppose token holders skin in the game from the revenue that's being generated in Lido but again this is the first prong and there's definitely a huge amount of work taking place behind the scene scenes that okay how can we do more for token holders how can we

implement their feedback um so what I would say is kind of watch the space >> yeah but you generally kind of see this shift as one that is healthy and signs of a maturing space. Is it overextended? Just kind of more broadly speaking, I'm curious what you guys think about this kind of uh uh this, you know, more revenue focused, product market fit focus that we're entering as a space. >> Personally, I think it's fantastic. Like it's a sign of maturity. Like I've been in crypto for around 10 years and I would say there was never really talk of a P&L. How do you manage risk? Now suddenly institutions are entering the room. people are looking at it from a different lens. Whereas I think before it was a little bit of throw it at the dart board, see what sticks, now people

are asking real serious questions and again I think that's a sign of maturity for Ethereum. Like if you look at it even just from a business perspective like um you have the work that Joseph Shalom is doing again I always think Joseph is a de facto head of BD for Ethereum to a degree. all the work that Dots are doing. You have Ethereum institutional, you have the Enterprise Ethereum alliance. These are again bodies that are building serious institutional and just structure around Ethereum. So I think this is all positive developments and it's a really good sign to see.

Um, in addition to sort of the expanding uh universe of Ethereum, I guess is is one way to put it, we we saw Fidelity start to now offer staking on its Ethereum product and start to bring that to market. Joseph, maybe just a reaction to what you're seeing in the enterprise and institutional capital markets as it pertains to Ethereum. What is the demand been like? And is there still money on the sidelines that is waiting to come in? And what are they waiting for?

>> Let me give that answer in two ways. I think since um basically June when the Ethereum community got its act together, stopped flagagillating itself and focusing on the negative and actually started telling the real story of the of what's coming. Again, I keep on saying look at the scoreboard. uh a group of ecosystem stewards including Joe Luben, Tom Lee, myself and dozens and dozens of others funded spin-offs from the EF. So more nodes in the ecosystem. You've seen for the first time in what I think are years, Ethereum start outperforming Bitcoin. I think if you look at the last 60 days, ETH has outperformed Bitcoin by 14 points. It's outperformed Salana.

It's outperformed Canton by almost 50% just in a two-month period. And there's a reason for that is that the largest institutions in the world from Fidelity to Morgan Stanley to Franklin Templeton to JP Morgan to BlackRock, they're launching their new funds on Ethereum and the L2s. And um I think one of the reasons why you're seeing ETFs start seeing inflows again is most of Wall Street understands that if most transactions are going to end up being on chain, you're going to need ETH as the trust commodity, the security commodity, the store of value for these transactions. We haven't seen enough value acrue from the L2s to ETH itself,

but I want to see 10 Robin Hood announcements where you're seeing, you know, an L2 partner with one of the largest fintech companies in the world. The transaction values you've seen in the first three and a half weeks have been off the charts and that's really really good for the long term uh of Ethereum. I do want to mention one other thing that's really important. We're in the business not only of helping fund the Ethereum ecosystem but create new standards. And what do I mean by that? If you have permanent capital and you can deploy it into DeFi or if you can deploy it into LIDO and make a commitment that's not 3 months, 6 months, a year, but you can make a multi-year commitment because you have permanent capital. You can create not

only incentives for your investors, and I'm not talking about the details of any deal, but you're now being able to push out the term structure of crypto. If you want to borrow against your ETH today, good luck getting a loan for more than a year. But when you start pushing the duration of your deployments, you can start putting a two-year mark, a three-year mark on borrowing and lending against your ETH. And that's really, really important to help shape an ecosystem. It sounds very trady, but that is how markets are made, not in one, two, three month mercenary capital and yield harvesting. So, we're in the business of raising standards, setting new benchmarks, and we're going to do

that, and we hope the ecosystem rinses and repeats >> and um yeah, that is certainly something that I think we're looking forward to. Um, you know, you mentioned it earlier and alluded to it again. Can you describe the permanent capital that you've got at Sharlink and why it's so important to building this base on Ethereum? Sure. Most capital in the crypto ecosystem is either short-term oriented, do quick diligence on a protocol, but you really don't care. You want to harvest incentives for a few months and then you pull the you pull that deployment out and you move to the next one and you harvest and you farm over and over. Or you have venture capital which has four to sixyear

equity-like returns. You want a convex outcome for your investors. There's very little in the middle who are people who own ETH like we do. You can buy or sell our stock and express your views on Sharlink, but we're not in the business of selling our ETH. And in the Bitcoin space, you're seeing the DAT start sell. And if you're an ETF which has large amounts of capital at BlackRock, uh Franklin Templeton, Fidelity, you have to provide daily liquidity to your investors. So if they want [snorts] their money back, you have to sell that ETH that day. So there's very little you can do besides buy and stake ETH because you need to have that daily liquidity to

give money back to your investors. So we fit in a really great space and that's why it's a better exposure vehicle. If you believe in the long-term Ethereum opportunity, and you want to make your ETH productive beyond the Ethereum staking rate, permanent capital is able to do that in a way that venture capital doesn't, mercenary capital doesn't, and the ETFs, which are really important exposure vehicles, just can't deploy their ETH on a long-term basis because of the daily liquidity to investors. That's the easiest way I can explain it.

All great vehicles, but just different than permanent capital. Very cool. Um, and ultimately our thesis that we've been talking about on this on this show going on for the last couple of months here has been this this acrruel of permanent capital in the space kind of shaking out the weak hands if you will and and building more of a stronger capital base ultimately is a confluence with the tokenization super cycle of tokenizing all of these asset classes. These tokenized assets ultimately proliferate across the entirety of Ethereum, make their way into D5 protocols such as Lido, such as the rest of the OG bluechip D5 protocols

on Ethereum, and we rerate not only the TVL, but the total addressable market for DeFi and onchain finance and digital finance as a whole. I mean, please c like can you pick up kind of on this thesis? Does this align with you? you know what you guys are seeing in the market and once that happens how long do you think it will take and where do we go from there to both of you guys feel free to jump in and why don't you go first and I'll give you my take after >> sure yeah look I think again we're in a fantastic state where like adoption and the different use cases are picking up immensely like for us one of the big things that we launched I think in December of last year was with wisdom

tree so like wisdom tree launched the first liquid state ETP in Europe it was the first 100% stake DTP and they would never have been able to do that without liquid staking and a decentralized protocol like LIDO. So for us kind of going through this journey with them I think the answer asked is something like 400 maybe 500 questions and getting them comfortable with the idea of working with a DAO decentralized protocols explaining that like lido is actually a middleware nothing is actually staked with us there's 800 different node operators in the background so for us to convince a heavily regulated public company wizry that look if you have a problem and Joseph mentioned this already where you can only stake a certain proportion of your ETF for your

ETP because you need a percentage for liquidity. We were able to come along and show them that liquid staking, you can actually have a 100% stake product, meet your redemption and liquidity requirements and ultimately pass on those returns to investors. And then of course from a wizry perspective, you're able to launch a better product. So for me, like I am incredibly bullish in all the things that are happening, all the huge logos that are coming into the space and it's just fantastic to be a part of it right now. Like we're definitely at the forefront of change. >> Yeah. And I I think we're at an Amazon, Uber, lithium, and video moment. And what do I mean by that? Every one of those assets went through a period.

Amazon was viewed as an overpriced book seller trying to sell more books online. Uber was being questioned for making their transactions really inexpensive and subsidizing both the drivers and the users. Nvidia's TAM was graphic cards and chips inside laptops. Lithium was used for very few use cases. The market then caught up and for each one of them they understood that the TAM was a thousandx what the market was pricing at the time. Amazon was changing the market structure of finance. Uber doesn't want to be a cheap ride share. They want to be an everything app uh for your daily lives. lithium uh became required for

and rare earth for new technologies and new business models. um Nvidia the moment they went from powering laptops and gaming to being essentially required for all inference uh in the world you saw the price not only catch up to the narrative people were betting on the future of demand and I think you're starting to see a real understanding of what Ethereum is going to be which is the global settlement layer and they're seeing ETH as something that the price is lagging but the market share and demand is not and then The final thing I'll say is one of the reasons you see divergence is crypto and onchain finance pledge collateral in very different

ways. In crypto, people would pledge their Bitcoin, which has no yield. They would pledge their stable coin where they weren't earning yield. No one in finance would ever do that. They pledge treasuries, high quality liquid assets. Why? Because they get yield as they're putting out collateral. And that's what we need to bring more and more into the crypto space. So I think Ethereum, you're making a future bet uh on the future of onchain finance. And I think the price is underappreciated relative to the amount of transactions that'll be coming. So we're in the business of telling that story and um giving people a little bit of a peak to what institutions are doing behind the scenes today. You're seeing a bit of the

tip of the iceberg of what's coming. It happens slow and then it happens really, really fast. >> Joe Keen, I mean, impeccable answers. Thank you for your time. Very bullish. Ethereum, very bullish on this collaboration. Keen, go enjoy that Euro summer, man. That's a Euro summer shirt. Joe, I think you're somewhere in New York or New Jersey somewhere at your uh at your place for the weekend. I'm going to go take a break here, guys. Thanks for your time. Thanks for being part of the show. And bullish ETH. Ethereum's in good hands with you guys. Um just uh yeah, thank you for uh stewarding the industry and uh sharing your time with us today. Appreciate it.

>> Uh really love seeing you guys. Um and I'll see you at the next one. >> Thanks guys. Thank you. >> Enjoy the Euro summer. I'm serious. For me, >> I'll go for a pint. Don't worry. >> There you [laughter] go. All righty. See you guys soon. Cheers, guys. Bang. There it is. Rob, the ETH Bulls are out. Uh just looked at there's approximately 140,000 BTC left on OTC market. Uh Espet MNAV is point8 asked Joe why they haven't done a more share buybacks. Yeah, it'll come. I think it's all it's just a matter of time. I mean it's a matter of it's a matter of patience. It's a matter of patience.

It's a matter of patience. That's how I think. Um all right, guys. We got some more news to cover. We got to talk about buybacks. We got to do daily equity. We got some signups. We got some position updates. I'm gonna take a super quick break. Be right back with that and we'll continue the show, guys. Don't go anywhere. [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] know we get deep [music]

know we get deep we get deep know we get deep we get we get deep we get deep we >> [music] >> We get you know we get [music] deep. [music] We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. [music]

We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. [music] [music] [music] >> [music]

[music] >> We We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. [music] We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. You know we [music] get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. You know we get deep. [music] We get deep. You know we get deep. You know [music] we get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep.

We get deep. >> Yo yo yo. What's going on, guys? This is Itan with the rollup. We're going to be patrolling the streets of New York City getting answers to the questions that you guys have most. What are people trading? What are people investing in? How much do people actually budget? We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets.

We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> All righty guys, Robin Hood wallet times lighter points are live and we mean live. Earn points in real time. Refer

your friends to earn additional points boost. Lighter has announced its points program with Robin Hood wallet. Uh this is the Robin Hood wallet instance of lighter. So this is available on Robin Hood's chain. You can trade per there. Uh there's an 11 million LIT token pool available uh for the Robin Hood community with 2x points through Robin Hood wallet versus 1x strictly on the lighter instance on the lighter web app. And this is this is huge. I mean Robin Hood crypto put out a post about it. This is the first time that Robin Hood wallet users are going to be exposed to what it means to getting a crypto airdrop for earning their token of choice. I mean, this is important. This

is like, okay, you're a Robin Hood user. You trade on Robin Hood. You like the platform. You're bullish. You're trading pers. You're making some money. You're losing some money. You're making some money. You're losing some money. And all of a sudden, you get paid. You get paid out of nowhere. You get a airdrop. you're like, "Oh, lighter tokens. Where did this come from?" And so imagine you're just on the app, right? Like you're trading per, you know, giving it a go. And what you see is, "Oh, I've got this lighter token. Oh, look. It's done pretty well for the last, you know, several weeks, several months. Maybe I'm going to buy more. Maybe I'm going to keep trading on it." And so like the distribution that Robin Hood wallet and then eventually Robin Hood mainet will get from just a simple lighter token airdrop for per users I think has orders

of magnitude larger consequences and distribution and mind share and growth for the protocol than just necessarily oh like here's the free lighter tokens for trading thanks for coming. I I think this has like a larger substantiative uh outcome for new traders of per first of all to understand how pers work. Second of all, get that token, then look at the token, understand it's done well and keep buying it. See the, you know, the meme of the Vlad and the Vlad. I mean, it just all goes together. And I just think that like, yeah, this this asset and this perp exchange through this distribution channel is going to have a lot a lot of growth. And I think that it's it's kind of hard to argue against this being bullish for lighter the

protocol and the token. And so I think the only argument is, oh, there's more emissions of the token. It's more lighter tokens going to the going to traders. There's more sell pressure. I actually think these people might just see that they got it, see that it's done well, and want to buy more because they didn't know about it in the first place. And so that's my take. Lighter pers on Robin Hood points are live, guys. trade 2x points on Robin Hood wallet, 1x on the app. I know Edward in the chat is a big lighter bull. Always good to have him around. And yeah, I mean, I think this is a tremendous partnership. I think uh this uh gives Lighter quite an edge. Obviously, you know, Hyperlquid is kind of integrated into several wallets and has these different distribution channels with

builder codes, but I think uh you know, Lighter having this partnership with Robin Hood, I mean, it trumps several of those distribution channels and this is evidence that Lighter is gaining market share on hype. >> Look at that sign, man. Look at that sign. >> Look at that sign. Let's give a round of applause for Rob there. Look at that sign. Look at that sign, man. >> It's right there. >> How will institutions gain exposure to crypto? They don't want to hold a volatile token, right? They buy an equity part of the infrastructure. They will buy Bitcoin. They'll buy ETH. They will buy your revenue generating tokens. Sir, Luciflex. Have faith. Think long term. Zoom out. The institutions are going to buy your bags during the next cycle. You're going to make a ton of cash. Don't overthink it, buddy. Let's get into our daily equity segment

powered by our friends at Dinari. The circular financing behind the AI boom. Kind of crazy. >> [music] >> JP Morgan just mapped out a circular financing death spiral behind the AI boom. You could say 46 billion dollar in equity investments from hyperscalers into AI labs. You're talking Microsoft, Google Amazon Facebook Oracle investing capital into OpenAI, Anthropic, and XAI while locking in $879 billion of multi-year purchase

commitments for the exact cloud chips and services those labs sell. You invest in the company, then you allocate to your own capital into the company. This is a playbook from Mr. DJT, the best of the best in circular capital financing, none other than Donald J. Trump, let me buy something. Let me tweet about it. Let me invest in something. Let me buy the stock. What's going on here in AI land? They're taking a page out of Donald J. Trump's playbook. Rob, what do you think is going to be the outcome here? >> It is so good to have you back, man. Um, look, I am going to take somewhat of an opposite take to the death spiral. I think that the market has somewhat seen this. They've sort of absorbed it, digested it, and I think they're kind of

okay with it. Now, we saw how the circular financing was playing out. We saw Oracle make a deal with Chat GBT, make a deal with Nvidia, make a deal with Oracle. It was just this merrygoround of revenue and capex. Everyone increased revenue capex and it flywheelled higher because that's what the market wanted. And then this circular financing, circular economics boogeyman came and sort of spooked the market a little bit. But we've known this. We've known that this is the way that the AI trade is working. We know that this is how this cycle is working.

How long can the merrygoround go around until the music stops? Is it is this a merrygoround or is this musical chairs? I don't exactly know. Uh but I think we're actually in a point now where it's okay because the market has known about this going on for a while. It hasn't caused the market to really retrace or correct too deeply and it feels like now the market has digested this and we're moving forward. So, I actually think uh this was a bigger deal a while ago, but now is no longer really spooking the market. I think it's uh I think it's going to come back and bite the market at some point, but I think there's plenty of room to run and plenty of distance that we can cover in the meantime.

>> Yeah, I mean, the AI boom is certainly being financed by concentrated group of companies, right? They're funding each other's growth. They're pumping each other's bags and they're going to accelerate the infrastructure build out. But it also raises questions, right? revenue durability, capital efficiency, circular capital, counting dollars, you know, is $1 in my company, then I give it to your company, then he gives it to that company, and then it comes back to my company. Does that count as revenue for me even though it came from me? Right? And so, you got like this kind of like crazy, oh, on my launch day, I made a million dollars, so my ARR is $365 million. It's like, is your ARR really $365 million there? uh Shabbat Patel from uh Y Cominator who just raised $1.2

billion dollars to make your agent not turn into the obsession, you know, girl. Like, I don't know. You tell me, Mr. Patel. I don't have the answer for you. So, I I just don't want to see, you know, the the rise of the of the circular financing affect the price of the NASDAQ, which is going to decimate your crypto bags. Ladies and gentlemen, that is the daily equity today powered by our friends at Dinari, the leading US tokenized equities platform. Now live all of tokenized S&P 500 live for us persons legally. I know in crypto you put that VPN on but this is legal KYC AML behavior that we do here on the rollup TV. Let's get it. Thank you dinari. Thank you the daily equity guys.

We got a debate. We got a question. We got a conversation to be had about buybacks. Do buybacks even work? I need a title change and I need Rob to to take a side here because I I got a question for you. >> What a do buybacks work? What a diagram we got on the screen here. >> Wow. Buyback's two words. No, no. Let's just pull that one out into one word there, buddy. All right. All right. We got We got some We got some words. >> You had a white claw already. All right. So, here we go. Do buybacks work? Should they should they be a part of the protocol? Hype, lighter, pump, frack, um, uh, aerodrome, unis swap, lido, derive for, you know, fake world assets. Do

buybacks actually work? And should buybacks work? So, this started because a clip came out of Paul, the CEO of Morpho, and he says token projects should not be doing buybacks because they're not they're not ambitious enough. If they are, if you're doing buybacks, if you care about buybacks, then you are basically shooting yourself in the foot for 5% five for 10% extra growth on top of your asset versus the 10 to 100 to,000x that we're really shooting for in this market.

And so on one side you have people saying that the revenue distribution to holders doesn't make sense. It should be reinvested into growth. The other side is the market saying look we only want to support companies that do buybacks. We only want to support companies that invest themselves that have actual growth and that want to have people treated like first class citizens who hold their token. And why would I own your coin if you don't do buybacks? And so I'm gonna I'm gonna ask my lovely co-host, the man with the mic over six inches from his mouth, ask him what he thinks about buybacks and their relevance in today's crypto economy.

>> Um, yeah, great question. >> I mean, right, like it's it's just bare market things, you know? >> No. Well, here's here's the thing. uh you're right on some of the things that you mentioned, but I think there's a nuance here and that's, you know, yes, uh token holders want to be treated like first class citizens. Yes, why would I own anything else that's not acrewing value to my token? Uh yes, there are a class of assets out there that do generate revenue and do pass that back to the token. Why would I own anything else other than those assets? it. My position on this debate is that value acrruel is imperative.

Buybacks are not the only mechanism to fund value acrruel. Right? So I think we agree, right? Value acrruel is imperative. There is a class of companies out there that are making money. There's a class of of companies out there that are passing that money, right, back to equity and labs corporations. uh and and they do have a token live and it's not getting a portion of that revenue and so you don't want to invest into that asset class or that class of tokens but of those companies that do generate revenue which I I would like to see some data behind this I would say of you know companies that are still alive they raised some money they didn't stop building they're

still practicing and trying to put together you know a good token or a good business I would say maybe 10% of them have made a Right? Tokens that have, you know, raised money are in this generation of companies. Maybe 10% of them have found some semblance of product market fit and have generated some money from some customer out there somewhere. 10% of the companies that exist today. Of the 10%, how many of those dollar of those companies are passing all of that revenue back to an equity or a labs company? uh maybe 50% of them, right?

50% of the companies out there are passing it back to equities and labs corporations and there isn't a single dollar or single cent that is going back in terms of value acrruel to the token, right? But that leaves 5% of the companies out there that meet the criteria that say they have made some money, they have generated revenue and they are passing some money, maybe not all the money, but some money back to the token. Um then it becomes how are they passing it back to the token and by and large the mechanism through which they've been passing value back to the token the small set of uh tok of companies and tokens that meet this criteria they've been passing it back in terms of buybacks. That's not the only mechanism to pass value back to token

holders. So obviously you know multiple things are true here. Yes, more companies here need revenue. Yes, more companies here need to acrue that revenue directly to the token. You know, the ones who are doing buybacks are certainly doing something right, but is buybacks the correct mech mechanism? And I would implore these founders to sort of do research into some of the other mechanisms that are out there. We haven't really seen like direct dividends passed back to companies in the form of cash or in the form of, you know, if it was in the form of their emissions or excuse me, in the form of their own token, that would be an emissions. We're not really looking for that. Um, buybacks is one of the ways where you can decrease supply.

A dividend would be incredible, right? If you have a protocol uh that's generating cash, they have a token, why not just pay uh the token holders, maybe they have to stake it, put it in a smart contract so it's programmable, just pay them in stable coins, just pay them in pure dollars, right? Because that's the way the equities markets do this thing. Well, that's exactly it. That's how equities markets do it. it implies that they're securities and that's why we haven't quite seen that mechanism. But by and large, you know, we agree on on a lot of this. The part where I would push back is that buybacks are not the only mechanism. Dividends are another mechanism. Maybe it's inhibited by regulation, but I'd imagine that there's more mechanisms out there in addition to

buybacks and dividends where companies could pass value back to token holders. >> All right, Mr. Clay, I really appreciate the thought. I just have to question whether like we're we're we're we're solving the problem, right? It's like, okay, maybe we don't do buybacks. Okay, but isn't just taking the money that you earn and distributing as a stable coin to a token holder? Is that not the same what the argument would be is the waste of capital and not investing that into growth that that like right that capital is whether it's being bought back and burned or distributed via stable coins different strokes for different folks

but what about the you're not investing into growth because that is the that is the crux of this is like >> I'll answer that directly. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But Andy let me jump in here because I want to answer this point directly. If that's what your argument is, then you shouldn't have a token. You launched your token prematurely. >> And so if you're suggesting that your dollars are better spent into growth rather than acrewing value to your token, don't have a token. There's no need. There's no rush. Why? You know, the argument for passing value back into growth is a good one. And it's that the the industry in the company is so early in its history that it's dollars better spent on growth. And that applies to so many of these companies because I think

you and I you know are one of the longer term thinkers uh you know in in this industry. We believe in the long-term growth thesis of this industry and I think dollars should be spent in growth gain market share and then monetized later down the road but don't have a token to tokens. We've basically proven that in 99% of the the digital asset digital finance use cases tokens are unnecessary to the ultimate user experience. you know, in the L1 trade, did you need a token to, you know, pay validators to, you know, bootstrap the economic security of the network? Sure.

Sure. But in hindsight, it was premature to launch those tokens. And if you want to fuel dollars into growth, you probably should be doing that, but you should also take your token off the market. And that's not something that we've really seen. But I mean, can you imagine if if a company said, "Hey, we we're so early. We want to be passing their our our revenue back into growth. We're going to take our we're going to buy back our token 100% of the token supply. We're going to take it private at 420 or whatever. Well, you you know what I actually predict may happen is that some of these tokens out there may be clawed back and there may be like a swap for like tokenized equities. Like the equity of the company may be the new token >> or teams might just come out and be like

>> um you know we screwed up on our token design. We cannot take the current token and allocate the equity structure that exists offchain into the current equity structure that exists you know in the token landscape because well the labs owns X and the investors owns Y and my great grandmother owns Z and you know and so they might have to do the full rescending of the token and then reissue a token that is the equity tokenized of that company. Now when you look at the performance of tokens that have buybacks on the last I think it's like six to 12 months 12 months I mean it's been a reckoning and of course this is

obviously heavily carried by like lighter and hyperlquid and a couple of these but the tokens that have performed the best have revenue and they have buybacks pump hype lighter obviously those are the three leaders. So how do you reconcile with that? Is that a bare market phenomenon? Like is it fair to say that within the bare market perhaps there is a strategy that doing some sort of fundamental buyback floor protection, you know, like the old memes of like the bids in the books, you know, like like what do they call it?

Like the janitors are here to sweep the floors in the NFT landscape or something like that. Like is that a fair strategy? Like maybe the answer is what Luca Press Perry had commented on our post today, which is that you you you think about it in this in this way and you start to turn yourself more into like a hedge fund rather than a uh uh rather than a oh we just going to do a programmable daily buyback. But then the push back would be well the market has been rewarding companies that do daily buybacks in a programmable fashion. Look at Pump Fund. They started the pro uh programmable daily buybacks at a certain point and you looked that the that the market changed the market structure changed after that. Hyperlid obviously

set the standard lighter following. Lucas says the buyback matter is quite simple from a corporate f corporate finance standpoint and I'll pull this up on the screen. He says assuming market rationality, you should buy back your shares and slashtokens if the return of reinvesting that capital internally is lower than the hurdle rate investors require from the share/token. And so in rational markets plus a high return on equity, you invest. In exuberant markets plus a mid return on equity, you invest.

In bearish markets plus a mid return on equity, you buy back. In rational markets plus a a low return on equity, you buy back. In manipulated markets, question mark. >> And so maybe this is the right way to do it. >> I like I mean Luke is one of the smartest guys in the space. Um, >> so basically what he's saying is rational markets, like let's call it a sideways or decent market going up with a high return on equity, which means that your return on labor, if you will, is higher than your return on capital.

Maybe you're nearing a local top, maybe you think it's ex in exuberant markets and a mid-tier return on equity, which is like a return on labor, you invest. But in bearish markets plus a mid-tier return on labor equity meaning like I couldn't you know you could hire anyone right now Rob and your token's not going to pump >> right no that's absolutely true >> or rational market with you could hire anyone or you could deploy any AI workflow >> and and your mark and your token's not going to pump back >> right and this is what we say I mean to put it in simple terms in bull markets the return on capital is greater than the return on labor right so Right. That is true. However, it is not true in

exuberant markets. >> Um, >> what's not true in exuberant? In exuberant markets, you would be going from a bull to a bear. >> And so, yeah, you don't want to exactly you don't want to be buying the top of your asset, >> right? >> Um, there is a point in which the opposite what you said >> that the return on capital is greater. I mean in bull markets you know you have beginning of bull markets and you have end of bare mark of bull markets and >> and you have the end of the bare market. >> Yes. Exactly. And so timing plays a big part in that. And what Luca is saying is that the return on capital is the greatest at the beginning of the bull market. That's when you want to be

buying your tokens. Especially because as we know when bare markets transition to bull markets they do so via apathetic market conditions when return on equity is very low. And so that is the best time to be buying back your token, right? Point of maximum upside, right? Point of minimum return on labor, return on announcement, return on equity. Um, as that goes, right, it diminishes their upside, right? Because you're realizing the upside as the market goes and the bull market continues, right? And it slowly transforms as the bull market comes to a close, right? the return on equity gets higher because there are things that you can ultimately do to pump via narrative, via announcement,

via product launch, via hire, right? And you're also reaching the top of the capital market in which case the potential upside is smaller because you've already realized a large portion of the bull market. So, no, I think I think Luca is super dialed. This guy has it. I mean, he's super smart and I I mean, I can't say enough good things about Luca. So then it looks like uh the rollup intern commented this. We think this is the correct way to think about it, but how do you balance this versus turning yourself into a directional hedge fund, i.e. for your native token?

Also, the market seems to be appreciating programmable flows versus arbitrary flows when it comes to buybacks due to a foundational trust issue in the industry. >> Which uh which rollup intern tweeted? This is a fantastic question by the roll-up intern. >> Yeah, I think it might have been uh my agent. I think his name is uh Atan Soho. >> Yeah, >> Mr. Mr. Dooka top blaster. >> And so Luca says programmable flows or not, it's not like deciding dividend policy for traditional for traditional company. It's the other side of a buyback. Large caps have always been actively looking at their price. Google used to issue shares when they had negative leverage because they knew the price of stock was very good. It's always about the RO, the return on equity versus earnings yield in the open market. Earnings yield is the opposite

of price to earnings. Higher return on equity, you should invest. Lower return on equity, you should give money back. Point that Paul is making is that it's pretty concerning if small and high growth startups cannot deploy money internally at high return rates, especially when those companies are still zero to negligible revenues. The counterpoint, however, is that these token prices are littered with insider activity, have low float, can be easily manipulated, and doing finance calculations on fair prices is irrelevant. >> You know, I I want to take somewhat of a left field, off-the-wall approach and perspective to this, which is that in some way, shape, or form, every company is a DAT. Every in more more specifically, every company kind of has

an MNAV. >> Every company kind of has an MNAV. If you follow me here on this, this is stretchy pulley logic here, but you know the MNAV is tied to your return on equity, right? And so if uh a tre treasury company's MNAV is under uh one, they would buy back their shares. If it's over one, you would hit the ATM, you would buy back, you know, the the token. Similarly, you know, your shares are effectively your return on equity here, right? But it is invested into via you know labor capital um uh announcements partnerships product launches these sorts of things >> right and so in the market conditions that he's describing it would be when your MNAV is under one that's when you

would hammer your equity and you would invest in growth flip side is you know when it's exuberant market conditions and these things right um then your return on equity is low that is when uh it doesn't make sense to buy back your own shares. It makes more sense to go back and buy your own token. So, in a very similar way, you can kind of look at these treasury companies and how they react to their mnav as in a in a similar way that you can react to your return on equity. Well, Luca has got me thinking like I've just been trying to buy as much Zcash, Bitcoin hype, and other distressed crypto assets for the next bull cycle. But he's got me thinking like, are we shooting ourselves in the foot, thinking too small, doing

distributions out to buy more crypto assets versus just buying and buying and buying more into the business? And I think of it as like risk, right? I think of it as like there's a certain risk to investing into the business. There's a certain risk to uh this is our own capital, right? as our own business. There's a certain risk to like, oh, you hire a new person, you spend 80k a year on them, 120k a year on them, you know, whatever it is, and it fails. What is 120k a year or doesn't go as well as you thought? What is 120k in Zcash at 400 before the intergalactic run to 10k mean? You know, what does that get you?

Well, it gets you like three million. And so like you know I guess the question is always for these VC backed companies is you have a token you're you're morpho you're token trading at two bill right um how do you allocate capital to help you scale like I don't know it's just different for different companies but it just got me thinking like it it it is a risk question and like a operator it's a skill issue I mean everything in life is a skill issue >> or or an issue of time horizons but I think your I think your answer is actually in the flowart chart. If you scroll back up uh to the original Luca tweet, um you'll see his flowchart here, right? And if you're applying, right, because the roll-up doesn't have a token

yet or ever, but anyway, um you know, the roll-up doesn't have a token, right? And so in this flowchart, if you're looking, you can kind of treat the rollup as a aggregation or a commulative of all the tokens that are out there in some ways. then you can say that Zcash kind of falls into that bucket. And so yes, Zcash is not the rollup token, right? neither is Bitcoin or ETH, but these might be the tokens that if we're in the market conditions and our equity is in the conditions that fall into, you know, one of the four uh quadrants of this flowchart, we would buy things, not the roll-up token because it doesn't exist, but we would buy the Zcash, those who are, you know, the tokens that make up

the tokens that we would buy if it's the case where we fall into these market conditions. It's a little bit or you would or you would not buy the uh >> crypto asset or stock or house. You would buy more of AI workflow support team. Exactly. >> Uh office space, podcast gear, etc., etc. And so this out here, I think this is like the this is like the Eli like I'm five. >> Uh >> uh I'm just curious if we have anything that that we should ask before we should clo kind of close this out. I mean, I was just going to say our business at the rollup is a media company. It is somewhat decorrelated or or uncorrelated from some of the other, you know, digital asset digital finance companies

that are out there. Um, and so our return on equity might be different whereas the general market conditions for return on equity are right now very low return on equity. Right? We're in apathetic market conditions, low return on equity, and so it calls for buying back tokens. You know, you would basically look at this flowchart and you would say, where does my company fit in? Generally, we're in very low ROE conditions broadly for, you know, digital asset companies. Um, I think our company also fits into that.

Although you could make an argument against that, in which case it wouldn't make sense to go buy tokens. It would make more sense to go invest into the business. But at this point, right, because market prices are depressed, right, and it's very apathetic out there, return on equity is low broadly, it would make sense to just buy tokens, whether that's your own token or other tokens that you believe fall into the category. >> Just buy tokens. Just invest in >> I think that's what I think that's the gambler in you as well. You know what I mean? >> Love of this of this debate. >> Well, what do you think is what do you think can outperform? Do you think your business can outperform um or do you think your personal allocations can? And and that's going to be the question. So

>> if you um the one thing that I would I mean if you want to plug something into Grock here, it would be you know take Luca's tweet, put it into Grock and say which of the four quadrants are we in right now? And I think we know the answer, but let's just make sure Grock is on the same page. I would say that uh I would say that uh we are in low ROE bearish market conditions and therefore the conclusion is buyback according to Luca's logic which I think is sound logic.

We're certainly not in exuberant market conditions. That's for sure. No, I mean I think we both know it's it's highly likely to be Wait, which you said the it's it's >> it's highly likely to be in the bearish market, low to mid ROE, which either way puts you into the buyback category. >> Yeah. Yeah. Bearish markets plus mid ROE. >> Yep. Exactly. Which puts you in the buyback category. And Andy, to answer your question, it means don't go invest into the business. At least according to Luca's logic, >> it means to buy back the token. It means buy back the token. And what do you do if your token doesn't exist? Well, you buy back the tokens that you think are going to do well >> are gonna do well.

>> Yeah. >> In in in this setting, returning capital via buybacks can be more value accreative than forcing internal reinvestment when the market is pricing to pric pricing tokens poorly and incremental returns on new capital only middling. He also flags blah blah blah bearish mid. This is a broad characterizations. Yeah, but I don't know. It's interesting. There's many ways to skin this cat, I think, no matter what. Um, and people are not going to agree with this necessarily, but that what is what makes a debate. That's what makes markets. That what makes life. Ladies and gentlemen, that has been the roll up today. It's time to close it out.

>> I mean, the other the other conclusion to draw here is uh too many companies and projects have tokens when they shouldn't. >> Yeah. Yeah, they they launched them too early and uh >> and there's a weird certain advantage to not having launched a token, still having some capital left and waiting having waited out this bare market. >> You're not forced to play this game unwinable game. >> Yeah. And you got the hindsight of like seeing all this token equity shenanigans and you're not going to launch a token next bull cycle that doesn't have claim of the equity of the company. You're just going to launch your tokenized equity. Maybe that's not the best outcome as the previous cycles, but that's what happens to you guys. The industry is undergoing a structural change. Uh industry is maturing,

infrastructure maturing, global adoption is rapidly increasing. And um this continues to happen. And so kind of closing out the show here. Um these types of conversations, these types of of simulations of digestible tidbits around tokens, around equities, all of this is important. But what matters is making returns. And you know what we say, guys. We'll be here day in day out. We'll see you on Monday. W's in the chat. If you enjoyed this stream, we're long. We're accumulating crypto assets the next two, three months to end off 2026. We'll just continue to accumulate crypto assets at all costs. We will continue to buy. We'll continue to buy.

As you know, our strategy, our returns, they're generated over the course of multi-week to multimonth to year-long spot holds, buys, long-term. You're looking to do long-term capital gains. You're looking to buy into assets that are depressed, that narratives have not caught up to their actual fundamentals, and that people will come and buy from you at much higher prices, and you'll sell to them happily. Then you'll buy real world assets. >> No. >> And I'm not talking about >> I'm buying I'm buying fake world assets, literally. fake world assets so he can buy real world assets later.

>> Yep, you got it. There you go. >> That's some crazy invention stuff. >> That's the circular economy. It's not AI, it's assets. >> Ladies and gentlemen, the roll up. It's been Friday. It's been an amazing show. Thank you so much for rocking with us. We'll see you Monday. Rain or shine, snow or sun, we'll be here. We'll rock. We'll cook. We'll print. You know where to find us. >> Soho House. [music] >> [music] [music]

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