Live From DAS: JitoSOL, Staked ETFs, and the Future of Solana Governance | Lucas Bruder

Transcript

Vibes are good right now. I think ignore the noise. Best way to ignore the noise is to get in the arena, start building. Nothing said on Zox Research is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is forformational purposes only and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Pokio, Ryan, and our guests may hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed. What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of Zerx Research. Today I'm joined by Dan Smith and CEO and co-founder of Gidto Labs, Lucas, also known as Buffalo. How you doing? Good. How are you guys? Pleasure to be here, man. How are the How are the vibes? We're at D. We got a bunch of

suits walking around. I've never seen you in a suit coat before, so this is already exciting. Yeah, tried to do my best here, but I think the vibes are pretty good. It's uh very cool conference. cool to be in New York and it feels very professional which is first for me for a conference. It's uh most of the conferences are a little more DJ leaning. So far it's pretty professional so it's cool to see that. That's what we went for. Get you a man that can do both, baby. Yep. Um all right, diving into it. Lucas, you guys put out a note on Genosol securities this morning. Yeah. Or specifically about how it's not a security. Do you want to talk a bit about that? Yeah, there's a report that was released

today, Monday. What's the date? No, today's Tuesday. It is indeed Tuesday. Uh what the 18th? March 18th. 18th of March. Yeah. Um yeah, today Jetto Foundation put out a report about Jetto Soul and doing a legal analysis on how it's not a security. It's really good reading. And I think a lot of projects have these they might have something like this internal on some legal analysis and uh kind of felt like it was time to release this and so it goes over what is staking kind of blockchain agnostic staking dives into Salana staking and delegated proof of stake. So on you know on Salana the staking is slightly different in that you can

delegate your stake to other validators. On Ethereum you uh you kind of run the validator yourself or you can delegate that to some delegate the operation of it to someone else. And then it goes into geto soul. What does liquid staking on Salana look like? Talks about stakeet a lot which is something we invested a lot of time into basically automating the entire delegation of the gotool stake pool. And then it goes over uh all the lawyers will appreciate this. It goes very deep into the securities laws and especially in the context of judo soul and talks about how uh it's it's not a security. So yeah, it's super cool. I highly recommend reading it.

It's uh there's a lot of good snippets in there on how Getool works, how stake stake works that I think institutions will appreciate, especially the the security analysis piece of it. And I think there's gonna be a lot of good snippets in there that kind of get pulled out and summarized. So, uh, yeah, I think the SEC hopefully will I know Hester put out a piece on a few important things that she cares a lot about. You know, you saw your memecoin post on how memecoins are in securities. I think staking is a very big thing right now. I think liquid staking is also very big. So, hoping to see some more guidance come out from the SEC on that those topics. Yeah, I love that you guys made this public. Like as you

mentioned, you know, a lot of teams do do this work, but releasing it is kind of like that next step. And do you think there's been a change of tune? I know you spent some time in Washington not that long ago. I saw you tweeting about that. Like the regulators want to have these uh conversations a little bit more frequently or a little bit more open and interested in that. Like obviously that's been the the narrative behind the Trump administration, but are you seeing any of that firsthand? Yeah, for sure. We went and saw the SEC. I think we're the first industry team to go see them. talked about staking and liquid staking in context of ETFs. I think there's a um there's a desire to work with uh the industry on creating uh level playing field and more transparent rules and

regulations, less regulation by enforcement and more like let's work with you guys. Let's figure something out. What makes sense? How do we define decentralization and control and securities and things like that? So, it's pretty cool. I never I never interacted with the administration or SEC previously. Uh going into them felt on our own like we emailed them and asked to have a meeting which is kind of weird and like never would have happened previously. So, it's cool to do that. And uh I feel like we can have like a real change there through policy whether it's on liquid staking or taxes or whatever it is like it's kind of in our court and I feel like we can do a lot there. So definitely noticing a change

and excited to keep doing more work there. Nice. I love that initiative. And I guess one more follow on here is you mentioned the uh the the relevance of this has to ETFs and of course staked ETFs. Um, you know, right now we have the ETH ETFs alive, but you cannot like there's no staking associated with that, which to me, uh, as somebody who loves the the idea of REV is um, just a little bit backwards, right? Like the network creates this value, uh, generates it off user activity and I can't stake my assets to earn my share of that. So, in some ways, it's like a worse version of the asset that is being offered to, you know, retail and not only just retail, but also institutions as well. Um, so do you think that there's a good chance that we see a change of tune there and

opening up not only the ETH ETF but all future ETFs to being able to uh to have that staking function so that the these assets can earn uh their portion of network rev 100%. I think staking and as you said like you want to investors want extra yield and they want to be exposed to the upside of the activity on the network not only through the price appreciation but any yield and rev that occurs to token holders and staking in these products is purely superior to not staking. uh you can earn you know a few percent yield depends on the network and there's a few kind of like hurdle there's a few hurdles to hop through on taxes and the way that these trusts are set up I'm

confident that people will be able to structure them so that they make sense and I think it's a matter of time before their stake ETFs and liquid stake ETFs is it's inevitable. Perfect. Um, talking about staking and yield, I want to get your honest opinions on SIMD28. Were you happy or sad that it didn't pass through? What would it Yeah. Um, I was personally sad. I wasn't in the trenches as much as others like kind of debating this, but uh I'm a little sad. I think the Anatoli said that yeah, we kind of just copied Cosmos inflation curve and that's what we did. That's fine. And like there's a million and one

things to do when you're creating a network and messing with the yield isn't one of them. It's like okay let's just copy this and there's like all these engineering challenges and go to market challenges that we have to focus on. This is the last thing and so I think salon is at a point now where it's more stable. There's a lot of activity, there's a lot of rev. And when you think of why yield exists on these L1s in the first place and why the curve is there, it's to bootstrap the network effects, get the network started, and get network security. And if you go back like zoom way out and you're like, okay, why do we need the security? How much is the right amount of security? It has something to do with the amount of stake that's

staked to the network. there's probably some number of validators that you want to and so I think the yield's too high on Salana. Um I would like to see it lower. Obviously 228 was 228 was way more contentious than I thought it would have been. No kidding. Like honestly I'm glad the votes over just so my Twitter timeline can heal a little bit. What are we going to argue about now? Oh well the Salana ad of course. Yeah. Um, but there's I think there will be like variations of it that might be a little more left curve. So, let's just cut the issuance in half or instead of going down 50 15% every year, let's do 30%.

Uh, there will probably be variations of that that may be successful or maybe they won't be. On the bright side, at least SIMD 123 passed though, so I feel like that one like 228 took all the spotlight. uh maybe you can just give a quick highlight of or overview of what 123 is and how that changes the network. Yeah, I guess uh I can go back to 228 too for those that aren't familiar real quick. 228 was basically uh setting a kind of a dynamic rate for inflation on Salana. So there was some target stake rate that uh you'd want to achieve. I can't remember the exact percentage. Is it like 50% or something? 50. I think it was like over 50. Um but then once you got below that 33% threshold, it started actually

increasing. Yeah. So yeah, if the amount of stake on Salana goes down, then the inflation would increase to incentivize more people to stake. If the stake rate was too high, then the inflation would go down. Uh 123 is about sharing block rewards in protocol. This uh in retrospect should have been added from day one on Salana. Um the stakers and the delegators are today the um all the block rewards from priority fees and transactions on Salana go to the validators hot wallet and 123 makes a end protocol way for the block rewards to get distributed to

stakers stake accounts and when you think about it the delegators and stakers are they're delegating their soul to the validator which is giving that validator the power to produce blocks and that validator gets to produce blocks based on the prorat a share of their stake on the entire network and yeah I think that like they stakers need to get get exposure to rev the the only previous way they've done that is through the judo tips and this whole tip distribution protocol there's some validators are distributing tip or uh priority fees out of protocol to their stakers or their LST or something.

And so 123 it adds it makes it transparent and it makes it so that stakers can realize some of the rev on the network. Yeah. The interesting piece here that I noticed was there were sort of like two groups that were pretty vocal um or coordinated in their efforts to vote no on uh 228. But uh I guess it'd be interesting to compare the analysis of like who voted no on 228 and yes on 123. But uh it was the custodians um which they actually are incentivized to care only about nominal yield rather than real yield because they take a commission on the nominal yield, right?

So the higher the number is then the more money that this kind of create generates for their businesses which is actually like a weird twisted and a semi- depressing framing here. It's like it's kind of like a marketing budget, right? Like if the custodians are incentivized to push their products onto their client base, that's could potentially a net good for Salana. Um, I don't personally agree with that, but I like I get where that framework comes from. Um, and then it was actually uh lost in from Helas posted a thread that's kind of pointing um there was like a huge block of no votes that came in all within like the same hour and 13 of the 20 validators that voted no in this block were on the uh like leading uh the leaderboard for having sandwiches

in every block. Yeah. which is very interesting that like that's another like you know max extractor type if you will that was incentivized to just make as much money possible on the network doesn't necessarily care about the network health. Um so it's kind of interesting to see the the dichotomy of like who is leaning yes who is leading no and what their incentive mismatch was. Yeah I also think that there's there's a lot of competition between validators and Salana right now. Um there's been there's been a race to the bottom essentially on fees. So a lot of validators especially the small ones are already at 0% commission for the inflation and they might have some uh they might have a small like geo mev

commission where they get some of the geo tips but uh yeah so 96 there's been a lot of interesting like economic things happening on Salana recently. So you had 7096 which uh before 7096 50% of priority fees were burned. 50% went to the validators. 7096 made it 100% to the validators. And then you have what the 22A and 123 discussion. There's been a really uh pretty steep race to the bottom in the the smaller validators trying to compete to get stake from stakers and stake pools. So, they're already running with 0% commission. With 123, it adds another commission type.

And so, there is kind of an interesting thing where like that could just happen with 123 as well. What's up, guys? Um, welcome back to ZX Research. Today, I'm joined by Antonio from Dydx. Thanks for coming on, Antonio. Hey, thanks so much for having me. You started in crypto 10 years ago. How has the environment changed? Um, would you say in terms of users? Um, would you say the earlier users were more sophisticated and now we're kind of getting dumber and dumber? Um, not necessarily actually. Honestly, I'd say the users are probably more sophisticated by a lot now than they were back then. Um, but at the same time, it feels completely different like

10 years ago when I was a software engineer at Coinbase and Coinbase was like 100 people at the time. Um, and it really felt like nobody cared at all about what we were doing. Like nobody even knew what we were doing. Um, but we all were kind of crazy and cared about this Bitcoin thing. Like Ethereum wasn't even invented yet. Um, so that was kind of the only big name in town. Um, but it just felt like, you know, this this smaller space like a lot of new technologies do of a couple of nerds just being really excited about this new thing. I remember learning about Ethereum for the first time and being like, "Oh, well, this has the potential to change the world." And it was really all about this like potentiality. Like even Coinbase, I think, had I forget,

but it was no more than like just like singledigit millions of dollars a day in in volume. And even DYDX is is quite a lot more than that now. Um, and and right now I feel like crypto is at this inflection point where we're kind of moving out of hopefully this potential phase like oh crypto could potentially be all these things and let's read white papers and let's buy into ICOs or whatever and try to capitalize on that to okay let's get serious now like what is it actually being used for today and how does this make my life better today and that's really the bar that products should hold themselves to rather than trying to create these narratives or this hype around what you could be tomorrow. Um, and and I think that's

really starting to happen um with a lot of things within DeFi and in crypto more generally a bit in NFTTS um that that people are actually using and that's exciting but it's not that many people and I think we still have like at least four or five orders of magnitude more people to to go to onboard into crypto and that has to be the bar that we hold ourselves to. How what products are we building that make, you know, billions of people's lives better on a daily basis and is not just like, oh, I can ape into this coin and make some huge amount of money. Like, that's great. I have no problem with that. Um, but there's got to be something else, too.

Makes sense. Um, lastly, there's a new administration and potentially a new SEC care. Um, well, a new USC care. How do you see that impacting the industry? I think it's a really positive thing overall. Um, and obviously crypto has become a somewhat partisan issue. Though I think long-term it's really important that it remains a really bipartisan issue. Um, because even if you know the quote like right side is in power right now, um, no pun intended. Um, this probably won't be the case forever and and crypto is going to be something that again we're all really buying into for the long term. Um, so I think it's just continually important that we educate

everyone, policy makers included, on the benefits of crypto and how it's really fundamentally different than anything that's come before. And so it should probably be regulated in a different way. It's it's not necessarily rocket science. Um, and really what we're looking for, and I'll just speak for DYDX's part in all of this, is regulation and law making that makes sense for DeFi, especially. Um, like centralized exchanges a little bit different. Like that's still a fairly similar model to traditional finance. Um but in DeFi, like why do you need audits? Just go open up Ether Scan and look any second that you want to. It's like hundred times better. Um and and so there shouldn't be requirements that like some body has to do audit reports or or whatever. Um but maybe there are

some requirements that make sense like should the marketing match what the actual code is? Probably. Yeah. Like I'd be pretty in favor of that. Um so why don't we talk about those things? and really just we've been focused a lot on education for policy makers at DYDX and that's going to continue um no matter who's in charge but it is something I'm excited about. Fantastic. And to our listeners, what would you and to builders who might want to be build who might want to build products um that use the DYDX orderbook? What would you say? Um where should they go? What should they read about? So you can check out all the info at dydx.exchange ordx on Twitter. And if you're interested in me, I'm Antonio M.

Giuliano on Twitter. Fantastic. Thank you Antonio. Thank you very much. What do you think the long-term uh end state is for like validators on a network? Because uh you know, Anatoy's always been pushing the idea of like, you know, there's going to be businesses that are willing to run their validator at a loss. Uh you know, maybe like an RPC provider being a chief example there, right? they can provide a better core service to their clients by having this you know well high stake RPC um this high stake validator and uh you know Anatoy's always been pushing that idea and then there's also I think this other element where if you play this out long enough like you kind of see margins compressed there where validators should

operate the network for some margin uh because there's just you know it's relatively it's a permissionless set so anybody can come in and join and compete uh and I'm kind of curious curious what how you view that world because it's got pretty contentious with the 228 vote where yeah I think running a validator is going to be super competitive and it's been pretty competitive for a while and then all the memecoin stuff happened and rev was through the roof validators were making insane amounts of money uh you can look at like how much geos public validators were making or helas it's like insane amounts of money and then I think Now there's just going to be there's just going to be a lot of competition and so

it's very important as a validator to find ways to differentiate yourself. Um you I it would be it would be unwise to just think that stake is going to come your way. you need to go out there and work and it's a real business so you have to do marketing and there's a lot of validators that have done well with this whether it's building RPC's uh infrastructure or building dashboards to track validator performance and things like that and I want to see more of that and ideally there's there's ways that you can spend a lot of time and like trying to find a way to differentiate yourself one thing with SIMD228 that I was curious about

is like you said um previously validators were making a lot of money just off priority fees and network activity. One of my concerns was that annualizing that and saying like oh this is going to go on forever could be a bit risky. Do you think that's a fair take or would you say I think we should annualize the Trump launch and just yeah just see that into the future. Well that is some of the takes that I saw were literally people saying that saying look at how much money people are making on this. I think 2A would have passed if it the vote was going on at that time. Oh, there we go. That's a spicy take. Yeah.

Yeah. It's interesting to see how emotions are so important in these types of decisions. What do you think about the the governance system more broadly? Um I want to go back to your question. Sorry. Sorry. What was your 72? I feel like a lot of people ended up Do you think it's like presumptuous to say priority fees and network network activity are going to continue to be doing very very well such that we can cut out the issuance bit of it. Um I don't know if that's like I don't know if I agree with that phrasing there. I think they're kind of they they're kind of unrelated in my mind.

the inflation is more of a way to well I don't know actually I don't think it's fair to annualize that but I do think the inflation is a cost to the network there's custodians and other validator operators that um depending on how you do your taxes when you get the staking rewards you that might be considered income at that time and so those custodians and companies have to sell that soul immediately and that is not very good for the price of Salana. Uh especially if you talk to people that were staking in the last cycle uh in 2021, they were getting a bunch of

staking. The staking rate was higher in 2021. They were getting a ton of money when Soul's at 250 from staking rewards and then Soul went down to $8 and they got their tax bill and they were like, "Oh crap, this this is a big problem." Um, so that's like the perfect example where it's a cost of the network. It 228 I think would have been good for the price of soul. There would probably be other variations of it. Do you have anything you want to ask now? No, governance is boring. So I take the question back. All right. Um, well, I think I would like to talk about governance. Okay, let's do it. Let's do it. What did you think about the the signaling votes?

Like does it have does it get put are incentives in the right hands with validators voting? And we've kind of saw some interesting polling techniques for getting stakers opinions or even like vote splitting. Yeah, I think it's it's a it's I would consider this like v0ero or maybe even less of like Salana governance. I think there's never been that spicy of governance before. 96 was kind of spicy, but this one was like super spicy. It became very political and that was unfortunate. But I guess that's like the world we're in today.

But uh yeah, I want to see there needs to be a way there needs to be a way for stakers to have a a way to override their validator. And it's not just a trust me bro thing. It's like um you could either I don't know what the best answer to this is, but maybe there's a way for validators to signal ahead of time what they want to vote on and lock it in and then stakers can override them or stakers get the tokens directly. I don't know if that's the best idea because like stakers aren't probably as there's probably hundreds of thousands of stakers in a like 1500 validators. So you're just gonna get way more

participation through them. Um I'm also coming at this from the angle of like uh the stake pool JO Soul like how can Jetto Soul there's Judo Soul is probably one of the largest single stakers on the network as far as like uh stake accounts and things like that. It has 16.5 million soul and there wasn't a really thought put into from like Geto side but also governance side how do LSTs get involved? Uh how do how do judo soul holders get to vote on these things? And so having some way for validators to lock in their vote ahead of time or getting so then like maybe you can

rearrange your validator set to get the vote you want or there's a way for stakers to vote. I don't know like what the best answer is here, but there's kind of a weird thing where like there wasn't any way for judo soul stakers to vote or just like normal staker stakers in general. And uh having better guarantees about their voice being heard from like the actual protocol level or the governance level would be good versus like hey uh I heard stories of like validator or stakers asking their validators to vote yes and then uh some of the operators just voted no. Um so there's a lot of like drama behind the scenes on this but getting better guarantees would be good. I hate to have

to say this, but doesn't Cosmos have a I was literally going to say you had a funny tweet of like anytime something happens, there's like a Cosmos pro that's like, well, we've actually done this already. But honestly, this is an example where I think that's probably true. One useful Yeah. One of the useful things that um I think before we end it off, I want to ask two questions. One is you guys had a tokconomics proposal um that Andrew posted a few days ago, maybe last week. Yeah, Andrew from the foundation. Andrew from the foundation separate. Um I want to get the lab's take on it or maybe your personal take on it. I know we have to be a little bit careful about but what do you where do you see like Solana's maturing? You guys they're thinking more about how the

economics matter like how the token distribution matters. Is this something that you guys are actively thinking about as well? Uh yeah, the Jetto Foundation and like people there and also other just go token holders hit up the foundation and me all the time like suggesting ideas. I think there's a lot to consider. Um some people take more of a short-term view and try to optimize for short-term thinking. I think we are pretty good about uh trying to balance short-term and long-term. There's some long-term ideas that you can do too. Uh I think it's still open question of what happens, but the discussion should definitely take

place on it. And yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff going on like the, you know, there's the buybacks, the buyback and burns. Um, there's like the protocol and liquidity and there's like a ton of there's a ton of other variations and I would like to see something that balances a short-term and long-term and really positions the protocol to be successful on a multi-year time horizon. Yeah, I can like feel the presence of uh David, our head of advisory, like lurking over my shoulder here as he uh has been super anti- buyback just for the idea of like, you know, you got two options like reinvesting growth in any capacity or return value uh cash flow to the token. Um and so he actually posted

a pretty interesting piece on the a forum as they uh were kind of going through the same discussion. Um that's basically it's like other ideas of instead of buying back like you can still provide value to the long-term growth of the network uh or the protocol or the application the business whatever it may be. So definitely I'm a personal fan as well of like the idea of reinvesting that in growth like building out a new product line hiring a new dev team whatever it may be to like continue the expansion of the goto product suite. Yeah, I mean we're also uh like the Jetto protocol is special too because there's some JTO and Jetto soul restaking. So there's kind of like the buyback buyback and burn and then there's the incentivizing behavior that you want to see angle. Maybe you could

send some more fees to the the resters as well. Um yeah, I'd also say it's special in another way, right? Because there's not that many Dows that have uh strong cash flows that are tied to sustainable products, right? in the me infrastructure. I think about 3% goes back to the DAO and then a 4% fee on the goto soul saking uh yields. Yeah. And the the goto dowo war chest is insanely big not only from those but just the goto tokens. I think it's like 400 and something million dollars. So yeah, hopefully I think as we all have seen like it's really hard to run Dows efficiently and there's a lot of wasteful spending in Dows and you just

hate to see that like there's someone's got to figure out something to to make it more efficient. Are there any like are there any efficient Dows that you've seen that are really spending and reinvesting on a multi-year time horizon? Yeah, it's a great question. Um it's interesting like okay so we just brought up A and like Mark Zeller has like pretty aggressive uh personality let's say and I think he's done a great job of like riding the ship of a DA keeping them on the right track. Um I think he's probably rubbed people some people the wrong way but like that's you know kind of the the nature of doing business in some regard. Um so honestly I'm I'm personally a fan of what he's doing there. Um but like I think we've there's way more examples unfortunately

of failed Dows. Yeah. Uh and it's like almost not a lot of lessons learned, right? Like in hindsight, a lot of it's pretty obvious, right? You build this strong business, you have a great team of founders and uh you know core core founding engineers and then you hand your business over to a bunch of strangers on the internet, right? And it's like okay, shocker, that doesn't work out as often as we'd like it to. So it's about like how can you uh decentralize the right pieces of the puzzle that don't um in some regard the the long-term success of the business. Uh yeah, I think we just haven't figured it out and in some ways it does feel like we're just going the very long way around like rebuilding corporate structures. Um so I don't know when we probably shouldn't rebuild they're pretty efficient. We've got

great businesses in the world but the question is like you know the idea of decentralization and and what how important is that and you know where do we implement that? So I really like the interesting uh you know sort of like experiments you've been running with futur uh you know you've had one that is uh closed and another one I believe that's live right now related to the switchboard in CNN. Yeah. Um so that's a pretty cool experimentation. In theory that's like this really really great idea. It's just a question of like what do we need to tweak to get those systems live and ready. Yeah. I think the the protocol should be like the the DAO members and foundation should be open to experimenting. I think there's still is pretty interesting and something that uh I think there's more experimentation

that needs to happen but it's an interesting idea. It doesn't work for every decision that you make. The I think the the setup time is pretty significant of figuring out how to structure it and what the market is and all that but futur is really interesting and as you said there's a lot of examples on what not to do. So figuring out what to do is uh pretty fun. There's a a very large design space there. Awesome. I know we're running up on time here, but I got one more question I want to jump in here with with is uh so I feel we talked a lot about Geto Soul.

We've touched on the resaking piece, but what is the future of the uh tipping infrastructure? Like how has that been going? I know that's kind of like a huge engineering burden of keeping this thing up and running. And if you can talk to us a bit about, you know, what your future direction is there um and what maybe a potential V2 would look like. Yeah. So, uh, geto tips got sent over to the tip router to kind of decentralize that and upload that. And yeah, I would say that the last, let's see, Judo Solana was released in 2022. I think it did like $3 of Rev in 2022, 3 million in 2023, 650 million in 2024. I think we're at 450 right now for

this year. So it's madness and like the activity on the network went from nothing. I guess we released Geto Salana on the way right before Breakpoint in 2022 and then there's just this massive Salana bear after that and spent a lot of time building this out with certain assumptions on the network and what type of activity we'd see. And now we kind of have some time to zoom out and take all the learnings from the past year and kind of rethink the way that MEV on Salana works, how the Salana blockchain works and all the different stakeholders and um yeah, I'd say that we're like the current thing is just a

vzero and definitely rethinking about how to make this better and we don't just want to build on Solana, we want to make it better than it could be without Jetto and we're kind of in this like grow the pie mindset. So trying to unlock a lot of new features and make it make everything way more collaborative from Jetto's angle compared to like the closed source talk to these guys angle before. So yeah, there's a lot going on behind the scenes and hopefully we can talk more about it soon.

Awesome. Well, thanks a lot, Lucas. Any followup? No, no, that's uh um fantastic. Lucas, thanks for coming on. It's been a great conversation. Any anything to leave with the people with? Vibes are good. Yeah, I think it's uh vibes are good right now. I think ignore the noise. Best way to ignore the noise is to get in the arena, start building whether it's uh reporting and things like that or talking about Salana data to building a protocol. So definitely get involved and uh ignore the market. Just keep pushing. Amen. Amen. And you're writing now. You got the Substack up. Check it out. Yeah, I got I need to cook up

another one soon. But um yeah, that was M. Mert told me to write more. Shout out Shout out M. Shout out M. Awesome. Well, thanks a lot, Lucas. Thanks, [Music]