🚨LIVE: Bull Market Day 2! BTC ETFs Weekly Inflow Surge! Bhaji, Misha, Hypermeat, Alec & Ran Join

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[music] [music] 17 floor. >> [music] >> We'll see you around the timeline.

Feels good to be back. [music] >> I think the rollup is one of the most premier media brands in crypto and Andy [music] and Robbie are great experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding it to my library as we speak potentially multi-chain deployments. We are at the neck [music] day one here. I'm guessing from Bat. [music] [music] [music] Heat.

[music] [music] Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity,

the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. >> He said it. He finally said it. >> I'm so bullish. It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] >> [music]

>> Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. [music] [music] Heat.

>> [music] >> a rollup is headed [music] to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. We're going >> rollup is my favorite. People >> from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the rollup. Heat. [music] [music] [music]

Hey Heat. >> [music] [music] >> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] >> Welcome to the next. See you on the show. Wow. Happy Friday chat community industry. I mean just just the absolute state of affairs here. Um I

mean I was just chatting with uh with our team here behind the scenes and uh you know whether you were underwater or you were just getting squeezed by apathy this is just massive massive relief. Um I hope everyone who's been listening to the show was well positioned. We've been just banging on the door talking about our thesis. We'll reiterate our thesis today before our guest. We got a fantastic show for you guys as always. Um we've been here I mean every single day of the bare market we went live. Um we have not changed. We've been uh you know there's been times when we've been more bullish than others but I mean throughout it all we've been hammering relative strength outperformance value

acrruel thesis the revenue meta everything is coming together you know just a week or so ago we were talking about how you know uh talk about inflation is at all-time highs talk about the national debt is at all-time highs so much so that it's sending the bond market into a tizzy this is the perfect recipe for Bitcoin Lo and behold, this happened sooner than we all thought. I mean, we were talking about October was the one year from the top. How perfect would it be if, you know, exactly one year we were going to see the bottom? It we didn't get there. I mean, we front ran the absolute lows happening in October. And now we're seeing the results of this. And it just goes to show why it's important. You

can't really ever get divested from this market or else you might miss the explosive move off the lows. We don't know when it was going to come. This obviously came as a result of Treasury Secretary Bessant talking about the liquidity supply program, the buybacks of the long end of the treasuries. I mean, this just goes goes why like it pays to pay attention and this industry uh if you stick around and you're patient and you continue to pay attention and learn, you will be rewarded. So, that's what we're seeing in real time. Uh like I said, fantastic show for you guys again today. Uh we're going to get Baji calling in on the tokenized equities front. Uh we've got Beef with our

Hyperlid update. I think Hyperlid made all-time highs. I think Hyperlid made all-time highs. Uh we're going to get into a little portfolio update here. Uh actually, uh to the team behind the scenes, it would be cool to see the portfolio update that we did a couple of shows ago. We did it earlier in the week. Uh and we talked about the portfolio update. I think it was like Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday of this week. And we said, look, you know, the portfolio as it stands is Bitcoin, ETH, Zcash. These are the assets with some semblance of monetary premium. These are the scarce assets that are now outperforming as a result of the expectation of an increase in liquidity,

increase in money supply. So, Bitcoin, gold, ETH, Zcash, these are pretty much the only assets that make up this asset class of scarce digital assets, programmable fixed supplies. Okay, 21 million Zcash, 21 million Bitcoin. We know the issuance schedule of ETH. We know roughly gold, right, which is a little bit of an outlier, but Bitcoin, EZ, Zcash make up the scarce asset class of digital assets. Those are the few, those are the only assets in that asset class. The injection of liquidity into the bond market is potentially they're signaling net new money positive, meaning money printer is starting to be

turned on. It's not quite yield curve control. It's not quite money printer turned on. We talked at length about this in yesterday's show, but they're effectively warming up the money printer. It's like you need to preheat the oven before you put in the goods, before you cook. Okay? They're preheating the money printer. That's exactly what they're doing right now. And they're prepping the injection of liquidity. To use Scott Bessant's exact words on CNBC yesterday, he says, "We have a lot of potential energy. They have the opportunity to turn this and they will turn this into kinetic energy." So, they will preheat the money printer. They will ultimately print the money. That is turning the potential

energy into kinetic. They're doing it in real time. They're signaling to the entire market. They're being extremely transparent about what they're doing and that is signaling to the market why Bitcoin is going so much higher, why it should continue to go higher. We're continuing to watch this. There will be pullbacks. There will be pullbacks and we're going to get into more of this. I think it was City Bank and they said this about the equities market, but they said every dip should be bought. And you're going to hear people on these pullbacks and they will be deep. But these pullbacks, you're going to hear people saying that was the bare, you know, the bull trap. That was the bare market rally. You know, we're we're going to go from 80 back down into the 60s. And people are going to be calling

for the 40s. They're going to be calling for the 50s. And the inevitable, you know, one last leg down, but the last leg down, we might go from 80 to 69, but 69 is higher than we were two days ago. So that to me doesn't sound too much like a draw down. Fantastic show for you guys today. I mean we talked about monetary premium. You guys know about the Bitcoin ETH Zcash side of the portfolio. The other side of the portfolio is a lot more diversified. The revenue meta. Okay. Hyperlid lighter a drrome. Uh the DeFi coin Sky Athena pump fund massive bids across the board. Etherfi on the venture side. You guys know this. You guys know the barbell, the portfolio

thesis. Monetary premium on one side, revenue meta on the other. Monetary premium is scarce assets. Revenue meta is buybacks and value acrruel to the token. This is the barbell. This is a portfolio construction strategy that we're moving forward with. This is a portfolio construction that we believe will outperform in the coming months and years as we enter the bull cycle. And yes, this is still the entrance. This is still the beginning. This is still early. Okay, we are not euphoric. We are very patient, methodical. We will outperform in the bull. Like I said, fantastic show for

you guys today. We're going to be talking all about these thesis that we have on the show. Uh we've got markets and weather, of course. Then we've got Centrifusion Symbiotic. They just made a big announcement when it comes to tokenized equities. That's a huge component of the outperformance thesis and the venue to which these assets will flow, will benefit, and it will outperform. Hyperme's going to join. This guy's got to be euphoric. I mean, this guy has staged his entire identity on the Hyperlquid ecosystem. So, uh I'm sure you guys are excited. I'm excited for Beef to join the show today. And then Coinbase uh which is another sector guys to pay attention to the crypto equities Coinbase Circle Robin Hood you could

classify as a crypto equity. These things are also up also up significantly. Okay. All right. Let's get into weather. Uh we've got uh couple things to go over and then we're going to get into our guests. But uh first big shout out to Plume as always. These guys are sponsoring tokenization tower. Um, also we're going to give a big shout out to Dinari. Uh, Dinari is our tokenized equities partner. Like I said, tokenized equities is a massive, massive wave of assets that is entering the space. These assets are going to flow into D5 protocols. Those D5 protocols are going to rerate their TAM and their TVLs into the trillions.

We're going to see this play out in real time. And so, uh, we're gonna get into today's show. Weather, uh, it's a bit overcast, a little, cloudy, not too stormy. All set for a good weekend. Hope you guys are, uh, you know, going to be having a good weekend as well. And so, uh, man, it is just shaping up beautifully. Uh, bull market weather is happening right before our eyes. Uh, very, very cool to see. Uh, honestly, I mean, you just these are the conditions that we've uh, we've been talking about. We've been thinking about we've been thinking about how to be positioned for this. Um there's plenty of people off sides. You know, Sailor sold lower. He's going to buy back higher. You have massive ETF

inflows. Uh these guys start to get in profit. I think average ETF entry entry on on IBIT is around 83 84K. There is this massive reflexive circular effect as we draw higher and these guys start to get in profit. You have treasury companies. I mean, the ETH treasury companies, let's just spend a minute talking about the market conditions. The ETH treasury companies, Bitmine and Sharlink, have just to a tea, executed beautifully. These guys, I believe, not only have they taken significant supply off of the open market, so that the spot asset in ETH is extremely reflexive as it moves higher, they're also in a position where they could start to see

positive MNAV. These guys are then going to slam the ATM and pour all of that back into the spot asset, take more of it off the table. I anticipate ETH getting extremely reflexive as we go higher. Let's talk about going higher. We're going to hit our market section right now. Uh first big shout out to Zama. These guys doing incredibly well on the privacy aspect. Uh Zama is just crushing and uh we believe that they are uh going to continue to uh outperform on the privacy element as well. Don't see the animation for Zama playing, but that's okay because we believe in them and uh we believe in the privacy thesis.

Okay, Zcash, Zama, you know, these things are they're sort of like these multi-intersecting vend diagrams. So, you've got the scarce assets, Bitcoin eats Zcash, you know, and then you've got uh the privacy narrative, right? And you've also got the revenue meta. And so, Zama sort of fits into the privacy circle as well as the revenue meta circle. Uh interested in hearing more about, you know, value acrruel uh to the token uh as well. So big shout out to Zama on the uh on the privacy narrative front. Uh great partners of the show.

We're excited to see them out in Singapore and we're excited to see everything that they're contributing uh into the privacy space. This is going to be increasingly important. You know, flock cameras, AI surveillance, these are also narrative. So you got the narrative. I mean this is just I you can just talk about the confluence of factors that is gearing up to spur this cycle onwards. There's obviously the macro uh and we can get into the markets also powered by Zama here. So obviously we've got the macro angle. Okay macro angle is now accommodative for liquidity meaning scarce assets are going to perform well. They are attempting to perform this bullish steepening of the

yield curve as they rearrange the debt. If they can steepen and they do this by pushing real rates or short-term rates down, uh they are in a position where they can steepen this and the market is extremely accommodative to asset markets, scarce assets, revenue producing assets, all of them. The macro environment is improving. At the same time, uh, you've got the tokenization of finance. Okay? And so, you've got these massive financial institutions, asset classes, DTCC, City Bank, uh, uh, S&P Global, like massive tokenization efforts underway. Okay. So, the legitimization of the industry is

happening. You've got the White House, you know, up there. President Trump shaking hands with leaders, right, of technology. We've got um, you know, the CFTC, you know, up there just, you know, working with the innovation advisory committee. You know, these are CME, uh, internal continental exchange, NASDAQ, you know, these guys right up there alongside the best crypto projects. I mean this is the legitimization of the industry at the highest level of finance. Okay. So just to just to recap, we've got macro liquidity environment becoming accommodative. We've got legitimization of the industry both in

potential energy terms in terms of signaling from the powers that be the authorities, the regulatory authorities, the political authorities, and you've got the actual legitimization of the industry with these financial institutions coming into the industry deploying capital and moving assets from their balance sheets into both private permissioned and public blockchains. Okay. rerating the D5 protocols and the applications on these blockchains. All right, so legitimization of the industry in multiple regards macro environment becoming accommodative.

The third is the narrative here. I mean, it's just it's just what we're seeing play out in real time. It's, you know, just the pure revenue meta that we're seeing. Um, and it's it's, you know, these things getting built out. um this confluence of factors is happening from multiple angles. Okay? And like we've been talking about the portfolio construction theory, you've got AI surveillance, right? Bolstering the privacy narrative. You've got real rates potentially coming down, potentially bolstering the stable coin industry. I believe that's why we're seeing Athena perform extremely well, outperform the baseline of the market.

And then you've obviously got the more macro factors, political and regulatory legitimization at the same time as macro accommodative liquidity, monetary policy, ETH breaking 2400 as we're on the show today. Chain link 11 a 1.5 near back above 190. [sighs] Boy, oh boy. Reset your priors. I mean, these things are incredible, incredible things happening. Uh just just exploding off the lows. And so look, uh, you know, industry's been off sides for a long time. I saw a poll this morning that said, uh, are we so back? I think 45 or or are we is it too yes, no, or too early to tell? 45% of the responses said

too early to tell, guys. We're so back. Get on sides. Okay, get on sides. There will be pullbacks, like I said, but in my opinion, pullbacks are for buying. not telling you when to buy, how to buy, what to buy, but I'm bullish on this market. I'm buying pullbacks and but we're already on side, so I I don't really know what to tell you guys. I mean, you know, you guys already know the portfolio. If we're doing a portfolio update, it's Bitcoin, ETH, and Zcash on the monetary premiums, scarce assets side. These are the things that benefit primarily from the macro accommodative liquidity environment. On the other side of the barbell, you've got revenue producing, value acrewing tokens. These are things

that benefit the most from legitimization of the industry. Okay? Multiple variables, multiple things happening each with an independent investment thesis, confluence of factors go hand inand to build this construction to to construct this portfolio. On that side, I mean, we've mentioned it. Hyperlid, you know, the president is talking about it. Um man I mean I could just I could go on and on and on. Um and so that is things those are things that we're targeting on the revenue producing value acrewing side. Look at what what part what components of the industry are getting legitimized in the eyes of regulators in the eyes of the political you know powers politicians and in the

eyes of retail pump fund hyperlquid and stable coins. Okay, those are the sectors of applications that I'm targeting and and the the sectors that I believe will outperform when it comes to the revenue meta, revenue producing, value acrewing side of the portfolio. We're going to keep going. Um, we've got some things that we want to talk about. We already I mean, we already talked about Bitcoin breaking out. Uh, inflation is is happening, but it's not stopping uh this monetary regime. uh they're going to run this thing super hot, super super hot. Uh let's keep going. Uh let me tell you guys about Near. We believe Near is also at the

confluence of multiple variables here. Both legit legitimization of the industry uh AI agent buildout, privacy and AI surveillance and revenue driving value acrewing tokens. These guys are doing extremely well uh both on the product side as well as the token side. They're climbing. They're starting to outperform as well. Big big thank you to our partners in near. Okay, we've got some clips uh from the CFTC innovation advisory committee meeting yesterday. We played this on the show. We commentated on quite a bit of it. We're going to go ahead and cover some clips. Let's go ahead and uh and listen in here.

>> Tyler, anything to add on cyber security? Yeah, I would just add that um potentially a way where regulators uh like the CFD could help out is um connecting projects with the frontier labs that are maybe small or the foundations or security researchers that want to help harden networks and maybe can't pick up the phone to anthropic or open AAI to get access to these models. Um a project called Zcash uh has shown uh has modeled how to use AI effectively to find vulnerabilities and uh patch them and then harden the network. And Zcash is also um pioneering uh formal

verification as well. But it's a larger project. It's over a decade old and the smaller projects may not have uh that connectivity to the frontier lab. So uh to the extent that you can fac facilitate that connectivity that could be a great way where regulators could help security researchers uh get these AI frontier models into the hands of the right people in advance of the the adversaries. >> All right.

>> Yep. I mean just spot on. And we've talked about this at length because, you know, obviously Zcash took it upon themselves to go out into the market, discover any potential vulnerabilities. You guys, I'm sure if you've been following the show, you know that we've been talking about this. Uh Mert has been on the show multiple times. I think we just posted his excerpt on YouTube if you're curious. Um and so now, you know what they did is that they threw the best possible models at this wasn't just Fable 5, right? They went to Anthropic, got a hold of Mythos and threw Mythos at Zcash to try to discover vulnerabilities. Now, one of the reasons why, you know, Anthropic and OpenAI are apprehensive about deploying these models and making them available to the

public is be- because people can use these things for both good and evil. Zcash was obviously, you know, using it to protect themselves, trying to use it for good and defense, but there are adversaries and hackers out there that are trying to use these things for malicious purposes. Uh, and Anthropic does not want their best models to get into the hands of those people. But what Tyler from uh Tyler Winklevoss from Gemini is suggesting is that if we can fasttrack access and and communication between the frontier model labs and some of these you know very valuable networks of networks of value right so that they can help harden their cyber security measures and protect against that's a

that's a win I mean that is protecting money from the people who earned it or excuse me protecting the money from you know for the people who earned it and that is what ultimately we're looking to do in this industry. Uh we want to try to harden our cyber security principles. So that's very important. Uh Zcash was able to go out and do it. They had, you know, friendly connections. Uh but obviously if the CFTC as a federal regulator can help fasttrack some of those access and communications, um it is going to make all of these uh you know crypto protocols in a stronger uh cyber security point.

So, we we definitely want that to happen. I think this is a great point by Tyler uh bringing this up to the CFTC. Don't know how they can help to instruct, you know, a private company like Anthropic, but as Anthropic goes looks at an IPO, you know, I think they're uh they're still looking to maintain positive relations with the federal regulators. All right, we're still continuing. Get our guests ready in the back. We're going to bring them up in a couple minutes. Let's continue through our tweets here. Um, three questions when challenging viability of a token. This is fantastic.

Obviously, you guys know our scarce money thesis on one side of the barbell, but uh big big group of companies, projects, uh, businesses and tokens on the other side of the barbell, right? what we're calling the revenue meta side of the barbell and the side of the portfolio is h you know how how do you put together a framework in which you know you can start to analyze which tokens are viable in terms of a portfolio construction on that side of the portfolio these are three questions to ask does the protocol make money right and one thing I'll highlight before getting into these is that it's important to you know the there's ands you want to see an and between each of these questions not an or you don't want

just one of the these criteria to be met. You want multiple if not all of these criteria to be met. So the protocol has to make money. That's number one. The protocol has to have product market fit. And if it has product market fit, then it's probably generating some revenue. And and you know, ideally that is generated onchain so it's a verifiable revenue, right? And and if that is the case, then we know the protocol makes money. Um if uh that is the case and we move on to question two. Uh question two, does this team use this revenue to buy back the token or similar? We've had uh multiple um you know conversations about whether or not buybacks are the correct

model for value acrruel. Okay. Um but ultimately this has been sort of the industry standard when it comes to this kind of stuff. And so does uh does the team use this revenue to buy back the token? If the revenue is on chain, typically it's much easier to verify how this revenue and money is being used protocol generates it. Is it going to the token uh in the form of buybacks or similar mechanism? You know, we've talked about direct dividends to token holders via staking. Uh maybe we get regulatory clearance, but I do think that would implicate some securities laws. And so typically what we've seen is that the revenue is used to buy back the token check on both of those. We

move on to the third. Does this buyback and burn offset the token emissions or unlocks? And we've shown you guys a dashboard that goes through exactly this. It takes into account what is the net token value flows. Net meaning you have token value flows in, you have token value flows out. flows in means buybacks, revenue, value acrruel into the token. Okay, all that is positive sum. Then you have the negatives. The expense side of the bit token balance sheet. You have value flowing out.

That's emissions, unlocks, sales, expenses, grants, all of this is selling pressure on the token. That is all taken out of the equation, right? And you're you're combining both of these. And if you can meet each three of these and I think actually what would be very cool for us to put out in terms of market education here is using this framework because this is exactly the correct framework. how many tokens out there and which tokens meet this framework. Which one you know meet these criterias and ultimately you know the way the way to think about this is sort of these concentric circles as you move inwards right you have a bigger group and you kind of narrow down filter out the ones

that you know maybe they meet the first criteria but not the second maybe they meet first and second but not the third and you're left with this group of tokens that meet all three of these criteria. Okay. And those are what we're considering viable or investable tokens according to this framework of thinking. Uh I would love for our team to uh to start working on something like that. Maybe a market map or some sort of depiction as far as how our community can understand the revenue meta. Uh before we get into our next tweet and we bring up our guests, let's give a big shout out to our partner 1 in. These guys are doing shared liquidity. Okay.

shared liquidity protocols. Uh what I'm particularly excited about is how we are going to start to flood the market and these flood these protocols with tokenized equities because this is a hundred trillion dollar asset class. All of the same primitives are able to facilitate this asset class meaning that it's time to reset our priors. The total addressable market of these D5 protocols including 1 in I mean is $100 trillion more than we previously thought. And so this is now a direct benefactor of the legitimization of the industry that we've gotten from the White House and the CFTC over the last two days. This is totally net new, totally early, totally still to come in terms of value acrruel

to the industry. Okay, so uh last one before we get our guests in here is just pretty funny, honestly. Jim Kramer, uh, you know, we know Bitcoin is up. We know it's gone from 62 up to 79. It's tapping on the door of 80. And, uh, Jim Kramer, uh, sold. Jim Kramer sold. What a surprise. Uh, he said, I think this was literally the day before. Literally the day before, which is just insane. Um, and uh, and that's what what we're seeing here. I mean, Jim Kramer never changed, man. absolutely never change because uh you are the best contraindicator our industry has ever

seen. Absolutely impeccable. Uh this is uh this is what we love to see. Um so guys, I mean whatever your indicators are, whether it's Jim Kramer selling, you know, whether it's uh you know the the you know industry leaders at the White House, whether it's the industry leaders, you know, advising the CFTC on regulation, we're getting the legitimization of the industry. This is most predominantly benefacting what we call the revenue meta. There's companies that acrue value, they have revenue, they have product market fit, they're acrewing that value back to their tokens. This is what we're, you know, saying is the revenue meta group. Okay.

And that is one side of the barbell. The other side of the barbell is the scarce the scarce assets that are in a particularly beneficial position to benefit from the macro accommodative liquidity positive environment that we're now transitioning into. Those are the two sides of the barbell. Liquidity accommodative macro accommodative benefits scarce assets. other side of the barbell is uh legitimization of the industry directly benefiting companies with revenue especially those who are passing that revenue back to their tokens in some way shape or form maybe buybacks or other uh we're going to continue talking about this. This is our thesis for outperformance on the show as we transition into the bull market. I believe our guests are ready. I can see

that they're ready in the back. We're going to go ahead bring them up on stage. Let's flip the headline. We've got Miesa and Baji, friends of the show. I think it's uh Misha's first time. And Baji is a regular on the show. So, welcome back. Let's go ahead bring them up on the stage. There they are, guys. Welcome. Thanks for coming. >> Happy uh day two of the bull market as they're calling it. >> The super cycle. [laughter] >> Absolutely. Well, uh, congratulations on sticking around and not pivoting to AI.

And, uh, congratulations on the partnership that you guys have launched together. Um, Misha, I think, uh, maybe you were on the show a while ago, but it's been a while. Uh, maybe this is your first time. I think it might be. And so, would appreciate just kind of a quick intro and then we'll get into the partnership between Symbiotic and Centrifuge. >> Yeah. Uh, thank you for having me. Uh, Symbi like my name is Misha. I'm co-founder of Symbiotic. Uh, symbiotic symbiotic is a collateral markets platform connecting capital to onchain applications. Uh, basically if it requires collateral, if it requires capital management, symbiotic can help.

Super glad to announce our partnership with the centrifuge. Um, yeah, >> very cool. Well, a big part of our thesis here is that the industry is getting rerated. Essentially, there's hundred trillion dollars out there in tokenized equities. There's trillions of dollars out there in money markets and treasury funds and all of this is getting tokenized. It's all moving on chain and there's DeFi protocols to which this value will flow and the total addressable market the TVL of all these protocols is set to rerate trillions of dollars much much higher more activity more earnings more fees more token buybacks etc etc um guys please you know tell me Baji about this partnership I

think last time you were on the show we were talking about the partnership of Coinbase you know you you were working directly with some of the industry leaders to ultimately bring tokenized funds on chain would love a little bit of an update on how it's going and especially with this partnership that you're announcing today, you know, how you anticipate this will proceed over the coming weeks, months, years. >> Yeah, absolutely. Uh, happy to share a little bit of the background and thanks for having me back. It's actually a good point that the last time I was on the show, we were talking about Coinbase because I think the broad takeaway from tokenization and how we think about what's next for tokenization is that over the last nine years, Centrifuge and over the last four or five years, the

broader industry has been focused on tokenizing assets. Let's bring assets on chain and let's represent them on chain. the critical what's next and the real unlock for growth beyond just those assets being tokenized is utility and liquidity of those assets and then that enables distribution and broad program programmatic adoption and integration of those assets across DeFi. So the partnership we're working on and that we announced with Symbiotic really hits on that liquidity side. So they're coming in as a liquidity provider to enable instant redemptions for these tokenized assets. And what that does is it allows the real world traditional assets that have work within traditional banking

hours that can be uh cumbersome and can block actual adoption and integration within DeFi. It allows them to now become compatible with DeFi. So when you can trade a crypto asset and and a real world asset and a tokenized fund and an ETF and an equity all at the same speed 247 globally available to everyone that's where it really becomes interesting that this is now represented on chain and becomes beneficial for the broader crypto market. >> Very very cool. And so digging a little bit more into the nuts and bolts here, looks like uh there's been a few funds uh that have been activated with this partnership. Uh Centrifuges, Janice Henderson funds and New York Life funds, JA uh and Janice Henderson Treasury. Uh

in totality, this makes up about a billion and a half to$2 billion in AUM. Uh and this is instantly available for redemptions. Uh which typically takes a couple of days. Misha, maybe you could explain a little bit. You know, obviously we want to talk about the repercussions here. Like, you know, there's a lot of programmability, usability, utility that I think, you know, this partnership is going to bring to the market. And I want to get into all of that because it is very exciting and I think it has far-reaching effects. Before we get into that, Misha, could you just explain a little bit more how this works? How are you able to facilitate instant redemptions where this wasn't previously available neither offchain nor onchain?

>> Yeah. Uh well we had uh as an industry uh we saw the amazing growth of RWAS right we saw interest we saw doubledigit growth uh and uh the the more we spoke with the liquidity providers for this more complex RWAS uh the more we heard that like the liquidity is the biggest culprit here right because especially for crypton native LPS is they need to be able to um well take a call of a new opportunity, right? So every time you explain to them that there's going to be like two day, three day, 10 day, 30 day period for the

red redemption window, they more you lose uh in in your target audience. >> Uh and the problem there was kind of chicken in the egg. So you have um you have a lot of like you don't have a lot of flow for RWA redemption and that that means that you can't have like a ready stand standby capital that's going to be behaving in the market accepted conditions right because you don't have enough yield to provide like a dedicated pool so we designed an RFQ engine that can uh that have a really high capital efficiency for the funds that are deployed If they're not utilized, they get base yield from lending markets and

other protocols and other apps. And then when the time comes for uh liquidity to be provided for redemption, they already get some some yield. And this is basically on top of the lending market yield. Uh this this enabled for this transitory period. This enables for transitory periods to still provide liquidity and to still present market level yields for liquidity providers for that >> and then each provider can agree on a predetermined set of discounts that they get uh when they uh purchase your tokens basically not purchase but like provide liquidity for your redemptions and uh we don't dictate those. So each LP can use

different uh terms for gaming and this is really important because we just creating this uh new primitive that was not available before and right and gating it towards one methodology is going to be detrimental for this to succeed. >> Very cool. Okay. And so let's get into the applications of this new primitive. Right. I think everyone is looking at you know these tokenized funds they're bringing them on chain. you guys are helping to do this. The what next question I think is the most exciting because people like to now pontificate as far as how far reaching these applications can go. One of which I think at least one that occurs in my mind pretty naturally is the idea of using these things as collateral because

previously they had risk as you know and and also a discount that they would trade against. they really weren't used as cash instruments and so it was difficult to use them as collateral. you know, how different is that now? Are we able to essentially collapse the risk profile? Basically, you know, treat these things as yielding cash, short-term bills, and, you know, basically treat this as a money market fund and use that as collateral when we're trading something like an equity, you know, and as we put more tokenized equities on chain, these things start to become very close together in terms of proximity. And so again, I feel like that would collapse the risk profile,

but I'm sure you guys have spent, you know, plenty much much more time thinking about this than I have. Maybe you could explain, you know, does this collapse the risk profile? Are we able to treat these instruments as cash and now collateralize these instruments to ultimately make a much more capital efficient trading environment? Um, Bajin, maybe you could start and Misha, uh, feel free to fill in. >> You hit the nail on the head. That's a primary use case that this is enabling is for these assets to be collateral. And that's both very interesting for a onchain audience, the folks that are most active in tokenized products today, but it's also interesting for a traditional audience as well. So when we start to enable utility for these

products uniquely because they're tokenized, that's where we start to see the the the why behind tokenization and the driver that can ultimately as we're all working towards bring new capital onchain. So T bills is an interesting use case having uh an instant redemption option rather than T+1 as you go out on the duration curve. even our New York Life product is T plus three where when you think about you know another user that might want to loop that strategy 2 or 3x nothing crazy but start to see a slightly higher yield knowing that in the case when they need to unwind that they have that instant option gives them a a much greater comfort level of what

types of products and strategies they can build on top of that. Um, another like, you know, not even deep on the looping side, but just as Misha mentioned earlier, depositing it into a lending market, borrowing against it, so that you have that cash, but you're still still earning this baseline yield. So, there's a lot of those really fundamental uh enablers that are already the way in which onchain markets are working that this can just help accelerate the adoption and the implementation of real world assets. As part of that, there's another um another use case we talk a lot about around just capital efficiency. So, because it's on chain, there's much greater ability to swap in and out of these products. So when you

think about a neo bank or a loyalty card system or these companies that have a very uh fast flow of capital and they're interacting mostly in stable coins, what gets really cool is whenever that stable coin sits idle, if it can just swap into this yield bearing asset and they have that comfort level, even if it's just a couple hours or a couple days, that then when they need that cash, they can swap back into their payment coin. So it really does start to open up the spectrum of what's possible and the opportunities of how these assets can be used across DeFi.

>> Yeah, you you make a great point because and I like the term baseline yield. There's this is now elevated the baseline yield that not only individuals but also enterprise are able to collect because you know the example of a NEO bank is a really good one. if I'm using my card going in and out, you know, they can also use the this product to borrow against, use it as collateral and issue credit to someone that is paying with a crypto debit card. They expect to be paying stable coins, right? They don't necessarily need to draw stable coins directly. the the provider can just you know keep th those assets in this product borrow against them provide those stable coins on demand and then reconcile their balance sheet as

necessary you know on a daily or rolling basis. Um so this is this is a fantastic um you know a fantastic use case across the board elevating the capital efficiency. Misha, you know, given that, you know, you guys are are pretty far reaching into different DeFi protocols, different chains, how do you anticipate the risk profile and the yield profile to increase? Obviously, you know, the best of both worlds here is that, you know, we increase the yield and we decrease the risk. I think generally we call that capital efficiency. How much greater can we anticipate the yields will increase as a result of making these products more liquid?

Well [snorts] uh the easy easy answer would be that uh currently a lot of uh RWA protocols uh they get from somewhere from like five to to 50% of liquidity buffer just for this purpose of making sure that the liquidity pool sufficient for their use cases. It's kind of siloed. It's only this capital can only cater towards one platform. So yeah like it's not market conditions. These funds are usually either decrease the overall and socialized the decrease in overall yield or they're not like provided under like

non-market conditions from liquid funds from the VCs and everything of this sort. Uh I expect yield to grow a lot. We still need to be careful, right? uh but this initiative I find to be really interesting. I'm a bias obviously but I find to be really interesting because uh a lot of people focus on the tokenization aspect of it solely right but they like not we are yet to show the especially the traditional uh finance are the beauty of defy right the two things that we always deliver it as an industry it's streamlining and democratizing access so Yeah, >> sorry Misha continue.

>> Yeah. So uh streamlining is actually like something that was not seen in traditional finance when you can uh tokenize a part of your portfolio immediately in 10 seconds get yourself a loan uh use it for day-to-day operations and then like immediately close it off right uh so uh I think the RWAS are going to be actually the gateway drug for the institutions to uh experience the full uh the full uh defy uh benefits. Uh and yeah, like we need to be really careful in terms of yield stacking and in terms of how we approach this like some of the products like just be mindful about the risk return of it.

>> Yeah. >> But generally this is a good uh opportunity for us to show what we have what we've built throughout the the last like five five to 10 years. >> Yep. Absolutely. Baji feel free. One thing I'll just double click on the point that Miesa made was that the recognition that instant liquidity is a huge enabler for real world assets that's broadly accepted across the industry and there's a number of different uh solutions for how to do that. One is by what Misha mentioned of adding this liquidity sleeve and what that does is it can it brings down the performance of the entire uh product because if you have a high yield bond fund and then say you allocate a certain

percentage to a T- bill fund or just have cash reserves so that you can use that in the case someone wants an instant redemption then every participant in that fund is penalized by the lower yield to account for those that do want to at some point potentially use the instant option. So the solution here is that we we provide that instant option only for the users that want that instant option. So I think that's a nice way in which the different infrastructure players come together to enable flexibility and optionality for the users who want to participate in these markets and have different expectations of the products that they're working with.

>> Fantastic. Yeah. And you know speaking a bit more about how you know th this will ultimately enter uh the market RWA kind of being that gateway drug here uh for institutions to get into the rest of DeFi. You know yesterday we uh we saw the CFTC meeting uh you know with this innovation advisory council. Uh I'm just curious did did you guys have any insight as far as you know what they were talking about collateral management for some of these products? What can we expect? And I know there's been, you know, significant, you know, output from the SEC with, you know, REGG crypto as well. What are you seeing on the regulatory front that is ultimately helping to pave the way? Anything that

you can call out that is particularly beneficial for what you guys are working on with these tokenized funds? >> At a high level, what matters for us is that the regulators are increasingly engaging with the market structure for tokenized assets and for onchain finance. that they're recognizing the importance of having clear rules and regulations, that they're embracing the technology, and that they're showing that they want to be early, and they want to be innovative, and to do that, they'll create the guard rails and the framework for how we can all operate within this industry. So, of course, very bullish, very exciting. We want to have the folks working on the the big unlocks that continues to create the confidence and the trust for the large

institutions that are pushing into onchain markets. Got it. Misha, anything to add? >> Well, it's kind of a balancing act uh between us and regulators, right? So, you you talking again about democratizing access, right? So, you have two sort of sides of the spectrum. One is everything is super close like everything is KYC defy is not completely permissioned. Uh and uh you try to be as safe as possible. The other one is like anyone can do it. So permissionless systems and the more guidance we get from the government uh officials and uh entities uh groups, legislative groups, the more

we can play around with that knowing that our users and us are going to be safe with the incoming regulations. Right. So the yeah the basically like we see in the market that uh we have a new wave of protocols that cater towards towards new regulatory environment because defy before that was not created for the like the current meta right it was created for like take as as much responsibility as possible take it outside of the protocol so like using decentralization or dows or other thing instruments and now we can actually because we have a clear guidance like becoming clear guidance uh then we can actually build an adapters and new

mechanics that were not possible before. >> Yep. And uh it seems like we've got clear guidance for at least the next couple of years. Hopefully they codify that into legislation with the Clarity Act uh and make this thing a lot easier to understand. I've got a little bit of a off-the-wall question here. there there was a the tweet that came out and uh Misha you reminded me of this because you mentioned that you know there are kind of permissioned systems versus these public blockchains obviously we know about this we've been here for a long time and I'm curious if there is a real preference for permissioned blockchains as we see a lot of institutional uh you know financial institutions move in some of them are creating their own permission networks

treasuries and money markets and and these things are typically regulated ated products, right? Typically, uh, you know, these are institutional products. And so, I think it was Fidelity actually that put out this tweet that said AI agents may prefer closed systems over public blockchains and that agentic payments could drive volume with meaningful value for token holders. I'm curious, maybe you guys have a perspective on the agentic side of this, but also, do you see tokenized funds primarily living on permissioned chains? What is the value proposition that you communicate to these to your clients? Maybe some of the education that you do to help steer them in the right direction. How much are they trying to, you know, put on

permissioned private chains versus putting in into, you know, what we know to be public blockchains in the open decentralized financial world. >> Yeah. like I I think uh we just need to educate everyone better. Uh I don't think that's like that someone has a preference towards one or the other. Of course, it's safer for you to have like a closed sandbox where you can play around and basically create rules, right? But uh public elements to that are are undeniable, right? you have composibility, you have secondary markets that don't have as high of entry barrier as permissioned ones. Uh and we

we just need to work on both, right? The carrot and the stick, right? The stick being uh worked on by the legislators being more clear and more defined in what is good and what is not. Uh and the carrot is there. We just need to show it to people and that's what we are doing here. uh we are showing the elements of composibility right you created a product it has characteristics but to building on top of the on top of the protocols that like centrifuge that are doing a great job tokenizing assets just using the defy element you get benefits that you would not get otherwise if you had more permissioned environment uh we'll see where it goes but it's our

game to lose uh the more we show the carrot to them the more we show that how how fast we can improve things for institutions, the easier it's going to be to for them to digest that and figure it out. >> And Baja, when you're having the conversation with these fund managers and you're talking to them about tokenization, do they see the benefit of something like an open composable decentralized financial environment like an Ethereum? Are they do they have any preferential, you know, treatment towards any other chains? What are you seeing as far as where they're deploying these funds?

>> We're seeing a strong preference towards public blockchains. So you see Black Rockck, UC Janice, Apollo, New York Life, many of the asset managers who are actively building tokenization strategies are doing that on public chains. And to your point, Robbie, like the the real world assets are regulated. There's very strict compliance requirements, but that doesn't have to be at the blockchain level. That can be at the issuer level. That can be at the ecosystem level. There's so many different creative solutions for how to ensure that you're building these compliant products that meet the regulatory requirements. But the benefits of DeFi and composability and open access outweigh the risks perceived from the

public blockchain. >> Yeah. Um I got one more question for you guys. It's a little bit outside the scope of uh the tokenized fund conversation, but you know tokenized equities is another like hundred trillion dollar asset class here. Um another sort of you know similar conversation topic in the sense that you know tokenized funds get deployed on these public chains that you know public chains seem to be winners there. Tokenized equities also part of that tokenization super cycle that tokenization conversation coming on chain. You know, I think we all see at least here the benefits of composability, but when it comes to tokenized equities, we've reached this fragmentation problem very similar to like, you know, the the fragmentation we pro problem we saw with wrapped assets

and and stable coins and things across different chains, right? We had, you know, wrapped staked Ethereum on Monad is different from wrapped Ethereum on Arbitum and like, you know, these things are now getting replicated in tokenized equities, right? like you know Coinbase stock on you know in a centrifuge tokenized is different you know than a different tokenization company that is tokenizing equities and we get all these wrapped versions with different governance and stakeholder rights some of them are native issuance some of them are SPV vehicles there's a bunch of different kinds out there leads to a lot of fragmentation open question to both of you guys is there any way that we can just solve this fragmentation problem once and for all or do we need to go

peace meal asset class by asset class to ultimately solve this and make everything composable together. >> Yeah, like I'm not going to criticize Coinbase their partner force and refri investors in us. So, but uh generally this is important. Uh I I don't think that this will be a huge problem. I think we haven't decided as an industry what approach works best. This is early days still, right? So sometime in the future we'll see like saturation and then centralization of the market but for now yeah as as many flavors as possible. Yeah. You mentioned wrapped assets right like we tried a lot and got

burned a lot as well right like before we gravitated to something that's more usable. >> Yeah. Right. So like this is the good innovation step like the the early adoption innovation step where you have a lot of like different ones. Yeah. >> I saw that tweet yesterday with like the 15 different uh tokenized Googles. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Where do we buy? Yeah. I mean I think I completely agree with Misha that we're so early and so many different uh structures are being tested. The centrifuge POV is that we just focus we're focused on ETFs and indices right now. So we have S&P 500 and then we you know like will ultimately can can support single stocks but want to see

how the market sorts itself out. >> Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. I mean the you know we've kind of faced this once before and uh we did solve the user experience you know question. Uh so I I anticipate that we will solve it again. Uh I don't bet against you I don't like betting against this industry. We we have a tendency to figure things out. Uh you know a lot of smart people building here. La last thing I got for you guys is just, you know, something that we've been hammering. Our community is very interested in because we've got, you know, several people that watch and, you know, they're they're working in the industry, but they're also building.

They're investing across the space. And we've essentially divided assets and tokens in this industry right now into two camps. You've got monetary premium. There's very few that fall into this. You know, there's Bitcoin. We've been talking about Zcash. And you know, you could potentially make an argument that ETH Ethereum falls into that uh group of assets as well. But then on the other side, there's a ton of fair game. We call this the revenue meta. It is revenued driving protocols with product market fit that are also important and that are also con uh uh acrewing value to the token. And so I'm curious, I think Centrifuge might have had some news as far as token equity split. this has been uh this has been you know quite

a contentious topic in terms of you know this revenue generating conversation and so uh I'm curious how you guys are facing this uh and how you've figured out uh kind of how to square the circle here in terms of value acral to the token. >> Yeah, so um thanks for bringing it up very very timely and I saw you guys mentioned the token to equity proposal that Centrifuge put out on uh your show a couple days ago. So we are absolutely focused on acrewing value to the holders and the owners of the company that we're building. We've looked at a lot of different structures and there have been a ton of different structures published on the evolution of the token model and our solution and our proposal for what

the best path is for centrifuge is that we actually convert our token into tokenized equity. So this goes back to your point earlier around equity becoming tokenized and everything being on chain in the future. We see this now because of the regulatory clarity because of our transfer agent license because of the market where it is today as a viable path for centrifuge and potentially other businesses as well. Um for those that haven't been following there's a governance post on the centrifuge forum. We're collecting all of the questions and we have a FAQ that's coming out next week. But I can share a little bit about why we propose this from the centrifuge standpoint.

>> Sure. >> So there's two primary factors at play. First on the token markets uh and the work that we've done at Centrifuge. We've spent the last 18 months at longer but specifically once I stepped into the CEO role and started really focusing on the token really focused on how do we grow value back to the token. We got it listed on Binance on all the major South Korean exchanges. We started doing quarterly token holder calls and generating revenue and publishing these revenue dashboards. Um, you mentioned the revenue meta. There's only 25 20% of D5 protocols that are generating revenue. Um, and there's only 1% of D5 protocols that have over a billion TVL.

So, we really started to work towards communicating this broadly and making it readily available to the market in the industry. And what we found was still that CFG regardless of fundamentals stayed very very correlated to crypto markets. Um on the on the flip side, the business that we have as it has evolved is that we're selling into more institutions and more traditional financial businesses that are deeply bought into this tokenization super cycle. They recognize that every single thing will be tokenized and they're moving really quickly to get involved.

And a challenge we've come up against as a business is that the time and time again the token governed business model has prevented us from participating in any of these types of partnerships because they have a low um perceived risk tolerance and don't um want to take on additional technology risk of what a token governed business model would mean. So the the meta there is that the institutions are here and they're active and they're building their tokenization products right now. Um so I don't know how much time we have. I can spend more time on the structure. I can uh point people down to the governance proposal and broadly we're like we're we're really excited to start this

conversation because I think the the recognition is this need for clarity around how um businesses are structured and how they adapt to the market as it is today. >> Great. Yeah. Uh I mean it's fantastic. I'm very excited to see more companies thinking about this and like you said, you know, there are very few that are actually generating revenue and doing so at scale and so I think you know these are ultimately the companies that are stewarding the rest of the industry kind of showing not only what's possible but the right way to go about value acrruel for the entire community. Uh typically this has been done through buybacks but we know that buybacks aren't the only mechanism to accomplish this. you know

there's several mechanisms that can be done and frankly I'm just I'm excited uh I'm a fan of the financial experimentation uh you know from from smart people here in this industry um Misha anything anything to add just on you know mechanisms that you've seen work for symbiotic for you other other you know mechanisms in the industry things that you're particularly a fan of here >> yeah no like I I think we see the signs of maturity for our industry like I started maturity I I would say right uh revenue meta versus hype meta. Uh even this announcement right like people can benefit from this is not like some partnership that we announced and like it's going to materialize somewhere like

in in the coming years. This is something that people can actually benefit from. This this will provide revenue for like symbiotic as well as new capital allocator targets for centrifuge and in general. So this this is businessdriven, right? This is not for the marketing side of things and we see more and more of these uh activities materializing a lot in the industry. So uh the the actual governance and the actual u resource allocations and revenue allocations we we we saw a lot of new initiatives that are interesting.

I find staking to be nice as well. still we just um recently helped launch the growth staking for their vault and like we we haven't found the the ideal solution yet here right uh maybe centrifuge is going to be the first one to show that like this is the ideal configuration here and uh generally like being having clear uh governing rules is really important that's what Baj mentioned right we don't want to we want to create as little f friction for people coming on chain as possible, right? While still retaining the mechanism to share the benefits and the success that we have with the token

holders. And one thing just to add on that is buybacks are um the primary option for tokens because they're the one of the only options because of the nature of tokens like protocols can't provide dividends and it's not a security and token holders don't have traditional investor protections. So buybacks emerge as the most viable path towards token holders realizing value from that holdings. So the uh holding a equity is the traditional equity markets that are um as old as the financial markets that have investor protections and economic alignment and shareholder rights and that includes dividends, it includes information, it includes governance. So

I think there's like if we can find this world where we get the best of equity and we get the best of token and we get programmatic uh integration and global access and distribution and we can merge those together. That is ultimately the best case scenario where we can uh create optionality for businesses and for their partners and for their supporters and token holders in the broader community. Yeah, absolutely right. And I think this is an important conversation to have now before the bull market really gets going because uh you know we want everyone to have uh access and exposure uh to these things as they uh as they extend upwards. Guys, thank you so much. Appreciate you spending the

time. Great combo tokenized funds, tokenized equities, and the the right way to structure these onchain businesses. So, thank you so much. Would love to uh have you on the show again very soon. Thanks for having us. Byebye. >> Absolutely. See you guys again soon. And the show continues. We're going to keep things rolling fantastic as always uh with Misha and Baji. Next guest is going to be uh our friend. You guys know him well. Beef is going to join the show. And man, do I think this guy's going to be absolutely euphoric. Um guys, we're going to hit quick daily equity. Okay, kind of picking up. Nice segue from our previous conversation

there with Baji and Misha. Uh we are going to get into Daily Equity and then we're going to bring up Beef. Okay. And so we are going to chat. Um we've got Daily Equity teed up uh we're going to go ahead. We're going to play the intro uh when uh when they uh when when we're ready here behind the scenes. But ultimately I think this is uh as especially as you heard on that latter part of that conversation um this is what we're seeing. Okay, onchain business structure is getting innovated. All right, it's not just hey token buybacks 100% of the revenue. There's potential equity structures. As we get more regulatory clarity, we might see dividends. There's a whole slew of

things that could be coming online. Uh as we again get the legitimization of the industry, the confluence of factors happening on multiple fronts. Very very cool to see. Uh let's go ahead play the intro on daily equity and we'll get right into it. >> [music] >> There we go. We're going to make this one quick today. City says buy any premidterm market dip.

I mean, you couldn't really make it more clear than that. This isn't me saying this. This is City Bank saying this uh with respect to the equities market. uh city remains overweight equities and recommends adding exposure. So basically, hey guys, buy our bags is what city bank is saying. But these guys are signaling, this is what they tend to do. You heard Secretary Bessant signal that they're going to be buying treasuries, right? The long end of the curve. He's signaling to the market that we're going to be coming in with dry powder putting on buying pressure. And he's signaling that, hey, if you wanted to frontr run us, you guys should do that now. City Bank is effectively saying the same thing. Uh midterm year is typically weak for the market.

Although uh equities is still performing pretty well, not as well as the digital assets these days, but historical data across 31 midterm cycles since 1900 shows S&P averaged just 2.9% in the two 12 months before midterms. That's below normal returns. And then after you get these midterm election post election rebounds, 2026 setup this year is that August selloff was driven by higher Treasury yields. Those are starting to correct. We're seeing obviously changes in the Treasury bond market.

Uh Walmart just came out uh missed sales and so they're dropping, but city's historical premidterm weakness framework. City is still bullish. Remains overweight. US equities pointing to improving earnings revisions, liquidity, sector rotation. If we get this bull steepening, this is going to be bullish everything. So you guys might see the steepening and the digital assets first the relief rally. The relief rally turns into a catch-up trade turns into outperformance. The equities market obviously has done pretty well, extremely well relative to the rest of the, you know, asset classes out there.

Uh city says this isn't going to stop. uh if we truly do get this bull steepening monetary regime and they do pull rates down in the short end, this is ultimately going to make everything up at the same time. This is just totally macro accommodative monetary policy. Still remains to be seen. Will they do this? Will the money printer get turned on and actualized? Like we said in the intro, they are effectively preheating the money printer. So, we're going to see what they cook. Speaking of cooking, that's been Daily Equity powered by Dinari.

Those guys are absolutely cooking. S&P 500, the entire S&P single stocks, tokenized equities all across the board, tokenizing to the gills. And uh we anticipate a lot more tokenized equities entering the scene. Hundred trillion dollar asset class onchain coming very soon. That's the end of daily equity for today. Okay, we're going to be bringing up beef to discuss Hyperlquid in just a moment. We're getting his screen share going and so uh it's always a pleasure to host our friend Beef beef.hyperlquid.

Uh we can go ahead and send him in. Hope you guys are having fun. Let's do a quick little check-in on the markets. Man, if we get Bitcoin above this uh IBIT average entry. Oh boy. Oh boy. It's going to be fun. It's going to be fun. Bitcoin hovering around 77. Looking pretty good. Looking pretty good. Obviously, Bitcoin is going to be the anchor. Uh monetary premium assets, that side of the barbell leading right now. Bitcoin Zcash ETH looks fantastic, up 28% this week. Bitcoin up 23% this week. Hyperlid up 37. Zcash up 38%.

Wow Ccash guys. Just bask in it. This is just glorious, glorious relief rallies. I'm so excited to get beef in here. Hyperlid up 37%. There's just incredible things happening. Pump Fun up 42%. Athena up 78%. I held a little bit little tiny little bag of Athena. My fake world assets position is not outperforming, but I am still bullish.

Shout out aligned. Aligned launched third token at the absolute pico pico timely bottom. Let's go ahead send in beef. Guys, it's it's Friday. Market's ripping. What an absolute week. just incredible things. Appreciate you, dubious rational. This show is so important. Thank you for your efforts. Couldn't do it without you guys. Freedom guy. Couldn't do it without you, man. Yeah. Go bye, Centrifuge. Bos would love that. We've got Beef in the back. Let's Let's make sure we uh we get his screen share dialed.

But before before we get his screen share, just bring up Beef. I gota I gotta talk to beef. I gotta just get I mean I just I wish he had camera on. I wish but I just I never get sick of looking at that ca that cat that cat just chewing on that that t-bone steak there. That ribeye. Oh my goodness. Beef, you're live and Hyperlid is pushing new all-time highs. How do you feel right now? >> The vibes are immaculate, my friend. How are you doing on this fine day? >> I'm doing fantastic. [laughter] I I mean, can you can you really do I mean, what else could you ask for right now, >> dude? I'm telling you, the past like 3 days have been just such a roller coaster in the best way possible. And even if even if we pull back a little

bit, it just the bid just keeps going, man. It's like uh incredible right now. I'm feeling Oh my gosh. It's hard to explain. Like I got goosebumps when uh Trump said hyperlid. [laughter] we're bringing Hyperliquid into the United States. That was insane. And the chairman of the CFCC is just standing right next to him like, "Yeah, he really just said that. He's really, we're really doing it. We're really doing it." I mean, Hyperlid is pushing alltime highs. Uh you're absolutely right. There will be pullbacks. It, you know, it's a funny feeling because the market was so apathetic. You know, this kind of feels like a relief rally catchup trade to equities type of thing.

But I I mean I don't know about you, but it still feels like so much of the industry is sidelined that we're so early that there's a lot of room to go. How I mean just it feels like dips are for buying right now. >> Dude, I'm telling you like even myself and you we have exposure to hyperl, right? But >> we do. >> It feels like we don't have enough. Like I >> know that's the only You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right, Pete. That's exactly how it feels. The only issue is we don't own enough.

>> Dude, I'm telling you, man. Every like every second it pulls back, I'm like, "Okay, is this going to be the pullback where I can ape and then you just see like a big buy come through and you're just like, damn." You know, should I have longed yesterday? I've been doing it a little bit. I longed my longs this morning, took some off the table, man. It was It's amazing like vibes right now, you know? >> Yeah, >> dude. I'm telling you, everything in the whole eco is like blowing up in a great way right now. So, >> yeah, this is this is it, dude. >> Did you watch the CFTC meeting? U obviously, you know, President Trump standing up there with the chairman of the SEC, chairman of the CFTC, uh as well as like other industry leaders, you know, he's up there with, you know, I

[snorts] think it was like the the chief of operations for NASDAQ, the president of the New York Stock Exchange of Intercontinental Exchange. He's talking about bringing Hyperlquid into the US. I I saw in I don't know if it was the if it was the White House President Trump conference or the CFTC conference the following day, but uh Jeffrey Spectre what, you know, he's been in business the the New York Stock Exchange is basically synonymous with finance in in the US. I mean, this guy has been in business for 250 years for the entire, you know, lifetime of the United States, right? And Hyperliquid has been online a thing for like three years, right? And so

I I mean they're talking about, you know, this guy is get the New York Stock Exchange is getting innovated. They've been around 250 years. They're being disrupted by a company three years old. Jeffrey Spectre obviously has been talking about Hyperlid and you know said it's bigger than the NASDAQ. Like did you watch that? What was your reaction to, you know, the New York Stock Exchange and NASDAQ basically being up there like, "Yeah, we're going to have to figure out how to, you know, compete with this thing called Hyperlid." >> Yeah. I view it as like the next stage of finance technology. When you have giants up there in the Trady industry just right next to the president while he's saying stuff like this and, you know, you got Mike Celig right next to

him too doing that kind of awkward trying to hold back a smile look. [laughter] Um, I mean, really, what what else is there to be said? I I believe the guy to Trump's left actually was posted, like you said a few months ago about how Hyperlid could be bigger than the NASDAQ or or something like that. And then follow it up with the next day, the CFTC meeting, and you see the CME, I forget his name, um, talk about how they have to compete with this and and Hyperlquid and Trade XYZ are influencing their markets. And this is a good thing.

This is, you know, like think about technology broadly. You know, there's always going to be new stuff you have to update. They fought it for so long to stop the innovation and to stop updating the system. We're finally getting a taste of it. And it feels so sweet, man. So sweet. >> It's in incredible. Um, let's get into the grill report. >> Yeah. Beef. Yeah. Let's do it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it. >> We got the screen ready. There we go. It's up on the stage now. So, uh, please take us through it. >> Hopefully, you know, it's not a top signal, but you know, my boy Clemente actually, uh, came out today with one of his iconic videos celebrating his alltime high.

[laughter] >> Always uh, always a good time. Um, vibes are great, you know. It's it's awesome to see this. Everybody rallying, culture, NFTTS, all of it's blowing up in a great way. So, this is this is good vibes. [laughter] Insane. >> Yeah, dude. Like um we t we touched new alltime highs today. Uh just like we talked about just the combination that one-two punch of that Trump CFTC meeting just man what a rally this is. Uh awesome. And it feels like there's an infinite bid, but we know that probably isn't. So, you know, not financial advice, but I think you're right. Dips are for for buying for sure.

>> Yeah. I mean, we've been talking about on the show, Beef, like it's the the confluence of factors. We've kind of split this into uh monetary premium assets and revenue generating assets. And you've got, you know, you've got this Treasury supply, this liquidity supply from the Treasury buyback program of the long end of the bond curve just basically signaling that they're not going to let this thing go down. At the same time, you have the CFTC White House meetings talking about bringing Hyperlquid into the US, which is just legitimizing the industry like at the highest level. And so you have these basically happen on the same day or one right after the other.

it I it just feels like there's it's almost like what else could you know at this point it's just letting the market just reach the point where it's going to go naturally because I don't I mean we can talk about other catalysts here you know after you ultimately turn a lot but it feels like there's a lot of potential energy a lot of potential energy the market loves to frontr run that but it will turn kinetic and so we'll you know we'll maybe get into that but you know this is sort of the the state the CFTC working to bring hyperlid into the US.

>> Exactly, man. It's just what else could happen? Um >> it feels like the ultimate like catalyst right now in a row. Like I said, like a one-two punch uh giving us just that broad market like up only right now. But yeah, concentrated heavily in Hyperlid too. It's it's awesome. Um there's just so many catalysts for Hyperlquid that recently just happened too. We'll touch on some of them, but yeah, it's just really exciting times. Uh this is good to see, you know, depending on what you like trading more, but crypto obviously because it is just mooning right now is taking control of all of the volume on Hyperlid. Um bumped back RWAS a little bit, but uh having that that barbell of being able to trade both of those and

then, you know, we're going to add in outcome markets too on top of it. So you're going to have this three-way stream. It's just amazing the flexibility of of Hyperlid to be able to do this. Um, it makes it and and the position that it's in makes it so unique. It it's fantastic. I'm so happy I'm in this ecosystem. But, uh, yeah, so there was some big news here. So, it's been what, two weeks, I think, since last time we talked. >> Believe so. Yeah. >> But, uh, I don't know if you guys covered it in the meantime. I may have missed it, but there was an update with HIP1.

uh it is now able to like or going to be able to do like corporate type actions like stock splitting uh dividends and you know you can do this rebasing of the yield um natively on the order books where like if you think of a NASDAQ listed security undergoing like a reverse stock split they currently have to halt that market before they can make those types of changes. So, it's cool to see this kind of innovation, too, to be able to um be done right away without needing to halt the market. Um, with this update, there is some speculation.

I'm hearing things on both sides um about how it could potentially unlock something like LSTs uh becoming portfolio margin, like allowed for portfolio margin on Hyperlquid 2. I don't really understand the technicalities of that, but I have heard both sides of the argument from legitimate sources. So, I don't really know what'll happen there with that. But yeah, this was a a super cool update. And what's weird about this update and like timing is that the same day that this was announced, the SEC talked about 247 tokenized stocks. So, you know, like on the money yet again, Elfe, you know, the goat, the team, hyperlquid, on it, man. like [laughter]

the timing is impeccable. What were your thoughts uh when you saw this come out? Because there was this was very loud on the timeline. >> Oh, absolutely. I think this is inevitable. I think the SEC is going to legitimize this. Uh and I think it's going to be a competitive race in order for all of the providers, all of the traditional exchanges to start to offer this. I think right now it's 215. Uh they just are you won't be able to keep up if you're not 247. So then you're going to get this institutional FOMO. They're going to have to move quickly in order to compete with their, you know, traditional financial exchange counterparts. And in order to move quickly, they're probably going to look to either acquire or launch on existing

blockchains rather than build their own. And I think they're in a position now where you know Ethereum, Hyperliquid have reached uh this point of legitimacy where they're going to understand the value proposition of permissionless open networks and that is the venue in which they will deploy their their their equities and their tokenized equities those offerings. And so I mean it's basically like clear the runway you know phones are going to be ringing off the hook in order for these exchanges to go and launch. Uh that is what I would be prepared for. I think that's what we're going to see over the coming uh the coming weeks as the SEC rolls rolls this out um and you know more and more exchanges kind of race to uh to deploy these offerings.

>> Dude, and we've had some updates as far as like who's providing spot equities in Hyperlid 2. So we had X stocks come onto the scene. Dinari has been here for a bit and now we have E EQX Labs as well. So yeah, so we're seeing multiple parties interested in in kind of doing this on Hyperlquid. So this is a great thing. More competition in providing these services makes it better for the customer, right? So >> absolutely. Absolutely. Um there's also been talk about the potential acquisition of Gemini to facilitate more of this spot trading and regulated HIP 3, HIP 4 deployer. So maybe we'll get into that a little bit more as well.

Yeah. I mean, I I don't have that, but um I definitely think that that's an interesting take. I saw Gemini and I saw uh Kraken. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know if that's their style, though. I think seeing them become more of like a a front end with Hyperlid on the back end is more in line with what could happen. But I don't know. That's just my opinion. >> Yeah. Yeah. We'll we'll see. We'll see. I do think that um you know it would be cool to get another deployer in there, right? So that you get a you sort of weaken the trade XYZ monopoly a little bit.

>> Make it a bit bit more competitive. >> Yeah, I think that's a good thing too. All right, we got a you know you're a big fan of it too. Hyperlid strategies, man. Uh David Sheamus, >> shout out David Sheamus. [laughter] >> Legends, man. Back above NAV. I did see some posts on the timeline saying that they already um were were buying acquiring some hype. I don't know if it's confirmed yet, but I did see like 100K or so they acquired. So, if that's true, yeah, I mean, they're above NAV, right? So, they can acquire more hype.

That's >> Oh, absolutely. [laughter] >> Oh, they will be buying more hype. That is for sure. >> Love it. Big fan of those guys. And then, uh this hit the timeline, made some waves, too. And I know you guys covered this, but you got these big names. Drunken Miller came onto the scene splashing what was it 23 or 25 million uh buys worth of per uh Citadel. Big names. You know, just looking at who owns this stock, I think it's 91% institutionally owned. So that goes that says all that needs to be said, right? They're they're there. They know what's coming. They know what's happening.

>> Yeah. I mean, there's a reason these guys are involved. drunken Miller. I think they they the the thing going around right now is that Drunken Miller controls both the Fed and the Treasury because at one point he worked with both Bessant and Worsh uh if I'm not mistaken. So yeah, Drunken Miller's plugged in and uh this guy owns Purr. So I mean what else what what else do you need? This is fantastic. Oh man, I have to shout out the Hyperlid Policy Center. You know, we have all these super bullish announcements and events happening where like I don't know if you guys have been paying attention or how close you've been, but they've sent seven comment letters to the regulators. They've uh backed the CFTC's

prediction markets framework with multicoin. They took IPO per to the SEC with Trade XYZ and did that meeting where some uh Trade XYZ people, we got a little bit of insight as to who kind of represents that team. you know, they they worked with Phantom. They pushed Treasury with Paradigm to keep regulated stable coins in DeFi. And then, you know, they asked the SEC with Pith to retire some rules that were outdated. They're just making so many moves. And I think the investment that Hyperlid put into Hyperlquid Policy Center was one of the best uses of funds um I've seen because Jake Travinsky and that whole squad have just been putting in the

work. >> Yeah, got that right. Absolute killers there in DC. Love to see it. I mean, just go a bat for the team. >> Yeah. Okay, so this is kind of my nod to culture here. Um, I don't know how plugged in you are as far as NFTTS, Robbie, but hypers are moving, dude. These things Yeah. Oh, yeah. These things were uh sweeping like 180 170 about a week ago and I think that they're like 190ish now. Um, or like they've, you know, doubled. It's like 2122,000 floor hype now or hyper now. And, you know, I've got to say it, there's like tons of speculation about

this. None of this is official, but you know, it's like the official NFT collection launched by Hyperlid. There's like less than 3% listed. It's it's like one of the biggest signals that you're a hype believer. Like if you've held, they initially sold for like 1,500 hype, you know, something crazy. Like >> some of them sold for 4,000, 5,000 hype. If you're holding until now, you know, you've held through all of that and you it signals you're a real believer. And then guys, we have to remember that there is 38 plus whatever was unclaimed percent left of the hype supply speculation that they're going to distribute somehow. And you know what would be a great target for a true

believer in hyperlquid. But yes, somebody who does a lot of trading, somebody who holds hype. Yes, I think this is a great shot too. You know what I mean? Like this this would signal, right? I mean there's even like a trade in here called conspiracy papers. Like just look at the traits, you know, it's it's interesting breadcrumbs. >> Wow. Fascinating. I mean that is, you know, part of the value proposition. Uh as you know, hype goes up, the likelihood of a hype airdrop uh means that the valuation of these hypers go up as well. Very cool. Yeah, I mean, for sure. We could talk about any other catalyst if you wanted to, but we did launch a new uh interview with uh Paragon talking about they just launched

the 10-year and the 30-year bond uh trading. Yeah. So, that's super cool. Trying to bring in new traders into Hyperlquid 2, those bond guys. Um, and these are crucial markets, right? Like everybody's watching these things to see what's going to happen. And you got Bent over there, you know, with his uh with his wand and an orchestra kind of directing the market. But >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, this is really cool stuff. >> Incredible. Well, Beef, I think we're a little ted on time. Otherwise, I could just sit here and watch the hype chart with you all day, man. Uh, absolutely crushing. I mean, talk about having conviction in in an ecosystem, sticking around, making a name for yourself and, uh, ultimately seeing it through. You've got to feel particularly vindicated today. So, uh, I feel compelled to wish

you congratulations and as always, man, I really, really appreciate you coming on and spending some time with us. >> For sure. I love spending time with you guys and this is only the beginning. Hyper liquid. >> Got that right. All right, Beef. Appreciate you, man. Have a fantastic weekend. Enjoy a nice steak dinner and uh we will see you next week. >> Peace. Thanks, man. >> Thanks, Beef. All right. All right. All right. We are going to keep things moving along here. And uh I mean, you guys heard it. You guys heard it. What What is What else is there to say? I mean, let's let's uh let's keep things moving along here. Hyperlid pushing all-time highs and it is

incredibly early. I think, you know, the consensus from those who are in the industry is that and and those who are on sides, the consensus is that it's early. The consensus if you're sidelined is that, you know, you're looking for a pullback, right? which again does once again reinforce the idea that it is still early. Um we've got our final guests. Last but certainly not least, Coinbase and Mass Pay. Uh Alec and Ran are going to join us and we're going to be chatting a little bit about uh how they are working together. Obviously, Coinbase uh you guys saw Brian Armstrong up there with the president, with the

CFTC uh advisory committee, you know, pushing this industry forward. Mass Pay global payout platform helps businesses send money to anyone anywhere through a single integration. Absolutely wild week in the markets in the industry as a whole. And uh these guys are going to wrap up the show on Friday as we head into the weekend. So let's go ahead. Let's bring them up. Alec and Ran from uh Coinbase and Mass. There they are. How you guys doing? Welcome to the show. >> Thank you for having us, Robbie. >> Thank you so much. >> Absolutely. I think it's uh both uh first time for you guys. Why don't we just start quick intro? Alec, why don't we start with you? We'll kick it over to Ran. Uh but we'll get into everything that you guys are doing together here.

>> Awesome. Well, well, thank you so much for having us. Um Alec, love it. I lead the infrastructure business here at Coinbase. Um infrastructure business. We basically work with banks, fintexs, PSPs, and crypto companies to give them the infrastructure and the tools they need to build in crypto. Uh and Mass is one of our partners. >> Well, thanks for having me again on the show, Robbie. So again, Rangushkowski, a co-founder and CEO at Massay. Um as you had mentioned, we do offer global payouts, both fiat and crypto to very large businesses. Um recently we announced that we're also going to do collections. So both money movement on the collection, custody and dispersements of funds from the US and anywhere around the world.

>> Very cool. I I want to get into how exactly you guys are working together to ultimately broaden the rails for digital money all over the world, help connect several uh you know regions jurisdictions, but also you know facilitating stable coin adoption. We've kind of been talking about like the the two the barbell approach. Uh on one side uh you know you've got kind of like this institutional buildout. On the other side, there's sectors of companies that are stable coins, tokenization, tokenized equities just all across the docket. Uh, and so, you know, I'm I'm curious how you guys are seeing the adoption curve because it feels like especially this categorical approach to the barbell, you know, we call them

these revenue generating businesses, these onchain businesses, you know, there's stable coins, there's tokenization. These guys are particularly benefiting from the legitimization of the industry. And I mean, perfect time to talk about this given the CFTC conference and and the White House conference this week. And so I'm curious given the legitimization of the industry, how you guys have seen your businesses start to expand, especially in the stable coin business, especially in the infrastructure business as it relates, you know, to Coinbase and then broadly, you know, payments, stable coins, wallets, uh, as you know, Mass Pay is delivering those out to worldwide customers. Um, Alec, maybe you can start about how Coinbase approaches this side of the business, a little bit more about

the infrastructure side and how the legitimization of the industry has basically made it so that it's just more acceptable for businesses to talk to you guys and build out crypto solutions and then how you plug in mass pay into that to help you guys out. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's an incredibly exciting time. um year and a half ago uh with the passage of the Clarity Act um really created a foundation for mainstream adoption of stable coins, excuse me, with the Genius Act. And then uh you know uh the Senate is voting uh on September 15th on the Clarity Act which would create a similarly solid regulatory framework for non-state point digital assets. And with that has come a wave of mainstream

demand outside of cryptonatives for crypto infrastructure. Uh and the reality is is most companies outside of crypto um don't want to build their own infrastructure. They want to work with a trusted partner who can kind of give them rails, give them access to licensing, give them access to liquidity, stable coins, uh and digital assets. And that's the business that I lead at Coinbase. And uh that's also the nexus for a collaboration with mass pay. Mass incredible business um that uh you know has an expertise and a ton of uh infrastructure built around fiat connectivity. Overall there's a convergence between um kind of stable coinbased innovation and um kind of fiat

payment innovation and customers are increasingly kind of picking and choosing based on speed and quality and so on and so forth. uh less based on is something a kind of quoteunquote crypto asset or a tokenized asset that what you know uh RANs customers and my customers want they want uh in the payments world they want speed quality cost efficiency and stable coin is increasingly becoming a critical part of that equation. Yeah, absolutely. And and Ran, from your perspective, you know, what has it been like working with Alec, working with Coinbase, and ultimately working together to build out this payments infrastructure? You guys coming at it, you know, on a little bit of a different

side, but obviously it this is a it's a team effort here to to reinvent the financial system from the ground up. Would love your perspective on uh working together here as well. >> It really is and Alec and the team has been nothing but phenomenal. Um, you know, it's really the lead the leading brand on crypto infrastructure partnering with the leading brand on fiat infrastructure and today when you when you deal with clients or dealing with companies crypto stable coins it's just another tool in the shed bot you know in the back in the box you need to be able to use all of it. So fiat is applicable for one type of transactions, crypto um stable coins is for another and you really need to be able to offer to your clients a complete solution. And Coinbase has been a tremendous partner

in allow us to expand our infrastructure both on the custody side and the dispersement side to really provide the clients the best means to send money regardless however it is. >> Absolutely. And and so I'd love a bit of a deeper understanding on the customer segment in particular. You know, is it neo banks? Is it you know some of these card issuers who is it that you guys are targeting and where's the bottleneck like is it such that we have this infrastructure built it's just about going and doing the you know the BD work the sales work to go and you know help them integrate or what what is the bottleneck and who are you guys targeting? Yeah, it's great. Maybe I'll start because it's slightly different for each of us. Like um the way we approach kind of our infrastructure

business is we want to power uh mainstream distribution of financial services broadly with the best infrastructure in crypto. And so our customer base includes global banks. We've announced City Bank. It includes FinTech like Shopify. It includes, you know, global uh money movers like Mass Pay. And so we're focused on creating the best, most reliable, most trusted infrastructure that kind of any one of those companies can uh plug into and kind of have the most competitive offering for their customers, right? And you know, Rand and Mass, they're experts at working with marketplaces and delivering this like broad range of

solutions and we want to empower them, right, for their kind of end customer distribution. So Ryan, I'll I'll hand it over to you to talk more about kind of your customer base and where you're focused. >> Yeah, for sure. So at MASP, we are not just the pipes. We own the whole stack. So compliance, um the whole flow of capturing information, processing information and orchestrating across many different rails. So our clients tend to be a little bit down, you know, downstream. Those are the actual marketplaces, those the insurance companies, those are companies that care about how money gets delivered to whoever they have to send money to, whether it's on a B2B on a B2C um type of transaction. So, it's not just an infrastructure play. We build a whole

stack on top of it to provide a full service to our clients. So it's quite wide but oftent times marketplaces are the ones who see the greater benefit because sending essentially the sellers the providers on the marketplace are part of their product and they really need to keep them happy. So making sure they have the best means to get funds um is viable and that's why they're partnering with us. >> And and Ren, where would you say the bottleneck is right now? Because we've seen sort of this stable coin super cycle. I mean the the Treasury Secretary Scott Besson, he's talking about, you know, trillions of dollars in stable coins flooding the market here. Is there anyone that's reluctant like no, we we don't see the benefit of stable coins.

We you know, we want to do things the old way, you know, because it's just all this uh you know, it's just it's just set in their mind. They're stuck in their ways. Is it sort of this philosophical approach or is there any other resistance or or bottlenecks that you're facing as you're building out the stable coin, you know, space here? Yeah. So, a lot of it is just unknown, right? So, it's market education and people tend to be, you know, comfortable with whatever it is they've been doing all along. So, it's it's more of being scared of using something new. And that's why we are very excited about the partnership with Coinbase because we now empowering our clients that have been using us for fiat over many years to access stable coins and crypto without changing anything. So, it's like same exact experience, same compliance layer,

same processes. So you're not introducing anything new, just faster availability of funds. Obviously, you can send it through different means, potentially better economics. So I don't think people are concerned so much about the fact that it's crypto. I think that bias is kind of phased away with the support um from from the government. It's more of just old habits. And that's why they tend to come to us because they say, "Hey, you understand our language. You understand the old world. Why won't you give us access to those newer rails and faster payments?" um using stable coins.

>> Alec, I want to I want to get you back involved, but be before I do, Ran, I just want to hear a little bit more like how did you ultimately take what was your story? How did you transition mass pay from, you know, typically it sounds like a, you know, fintech payment system that was primarily in the fiat world. What changed your mind? What was your light bulb moment where you said, "Oh, I need to change my company and prepare for stable coins." >> So, we were designed for stable coins from day one. It's just the adoption wasn't there. So we use it internally for doing our own treasury management and ultimately convincing some of our counterparties all over the world. We have more than 80 global correspondents.

So eventually we were convincing them, hey, we can fund you over the weekend. We can potentially pump more more dollars for you if you accept stable coins. So we were adopting it early on. It's just downstream. Our clients were a little bit reluctant. And I think with recent change in narrative in the industry um clients became more open to the conversation and we felt we need to partner with the best infrastructure player in the market and that's why we're here with Coinbase. So it wasn't really a shift in our state of mind. It was more so downstream with the clients and we are very very excited that things are moving in the right direction because there's a tremendous growth in our utility of stable coins. Um I think that probably by the end of the year it's going to be about half of what of

our volume that we pump is going to be through stable coins. So it's tremendous growth. >> Very cool. Very cool. We have a a saying on the show uh particularly relevant for stable coins. Uh a a a dollar onchain tends to stay on chain in in the sense that you know once we have greater origination of money on chain that tends to find its way into DeFi protocols into tokenized products into tokenized money market funds tokenized funds rather than you know the off-chain funds. if you know you have a you know uh pick your money market fund if it's you know if it's got a tokenized version and you're getting you know onchain money why not just deposit into that versus you know offramping it going into you know the fiat alternative and so a lot of that

starts with you know people normal people getting paid or the banks Alec like you've talked about you know the the uh stable coin adoption happening at the most root level because ultimately a lot of this is downstream dream of that is do do you sort of think about it this way or as you're going and just sort of continuing to, you know, gain more and more market share in the traditional payments world with stable coins? How do you think about the progression? Like what is the next asset class? What is the next industry that you're targeting for stable coins?

>> Yeah, it's a great question. I I honestly I think um one way to think about it is we're in the middle of two overlapping eras of stablecoin adoption. Era one um which you know really started 2018 2019 was stable coins are the killer 24 by7 collateral for crypto trading and that now has of course expanded. uh you now have stable coins as the collateral for 247 per tokenized equities and an increasing range of tokenized assets and and that as a use case for stable coins has really exploded. This is core to what we do at Coinbase in general. Um you know we're the largest global distributor of stable coins. Um close partnership with USDC

but support all stable coins. Um, and a huge part of that is by virtue of our trading business, right, and our everything exchange. Um, and then the second era of stable coin adoption, which is more nent and has exploded over the last couple years, is exactly what we're talking about today, which is stable coins displacing um traditional forms of money movement, traditional financial rails, and really converging with other forms of non-crypto financial innovation. uh to enable customers to get this best of breed services. And so I think it's an incredibly exciting time, right? We have this foundation of liquidity in the

market that exists on chain that is massive. Um and then it is basically finding uh product market fit in an increasing range of money movement use cases. And so I think to get really, you know, hone in on your question specifically, the earliest points of product market fit uh are in uh a range of B2B payments, crossber money movement, uh mass settlement, uh FX transactions uh where sophisticated business counterparties are realizing that moving those flows into stable coins are more efficient um from a flight time perspective, from a cost perspective, from an FX orderbook perspective. And we see this explosion of demand. Uh ran and masspay are kind

of at the epicenter of that. But we're increasingly seeing product market fit in B2C use cases as well, right? So customers are increasingly paying uh for goods and services uh cross border on chain. Uh Coinbase is the market leading uh stable coin acceptance UX. Um, and we're also seeing an explosion of demand for non-crypto trading, holding of stable coins and yield bearing stable coins, decentralized lend borrow, which is a core part of our infrastructure stack as well. Um, all that is to say, I think we have like very very clear uh product market fit in a range of of B2B and crossber use cases and then we have

right around the corner kind of on the next horizon these killer use cases for end consumer holding yield and and DeFi earn uh growing like wildfire as well. >> Yeah, fantastic. I mean this is sort of the barbell approach of both the enterprise product market fit those solutions as well as the retail consumerf facing solutions but ultimately these things are fueled by stable coins at at the heart of it um and you know that is sort of the lifeblood that keeps both of these things growing uh as a result and so I I'm just curious I mean h like how much volume uh ran are you guys pumping through right now and you know you guys doing together as as a result of this partnership what what what are what are

some of the numbers that you guys are doing? >> So, we have a lot in the pipe that is going to grow. So, this is a relatively new partnership that we are now just expanding, but we are looking to transition hundreds of millions of dollars a month in stable coins volume to um Coinbase in the next few weeks hopefully. >> Yeah. See, like and and I take it the the monetization strategy take, you know, small spread basis, couple of basis points and then, you know, it all kind of flows to your bottom line. like this is sort of the playbook and you just expand partnerships and and increase volume and increase revenue to the bottom line.

>> The idea is to make it to make it easy. Sorry Alec. >> No, please. to make it easy for the clients to distribute the funds to wherever they owe money. And stable coins is again is growing in demand and more companies are trying to meet the trend and make giving them access for good rates, good service and obviously compliantly which is extremely important. You know, Coinbase is one of the largest footprint when it comes to compliance and we take compliance very seriously. Um, so it just it's a match and you know, made a lot of sense. Go ahead Eric.

>> I was just gonna I was just going to add Just to p you back on specifically what Rand was talking about there. Um so much of financial services is trust, right? And I think that's one thing that's really awesome about our partnership, the kind of overlapping focus on compliance and trust as part of the equation. Um and that is a thing that has hampered stable coin and crypto adoption. That's no secret to anyone here. But from a Coinbase perspective, we're very very focused on this. I gave a talk a couple months ago and I actually worked with our legal team to look up the number of licenses we had globally. We have 80 licenses globally, regulatory, fiat, EMI, etc. Like it's a lot of licenses that have gone into this equation. And I think um you know when

we select partners like Mass, we're looking for that overlap because uh so much of the unlock is um delivering a more efficient innovative solution for certain flows with no compromise on the trust part of the equation. >> Yeah. Um and we know the Clarity Act is somewhere out there on the horizon. We know the genius act is sort of in its final, you know, finalization process with the last couple of rules coming out. How given that trust lure regulation, you know, doing things the right way here is so important to this business, you know, both of you guys are taking it very seriously with the final rules coming from the Genius Act. Are

there is there anything that you guys have that you're anticipating or having to evolve or have you effectively preemptively prepared for this? it's just sort of put, you know, kind of coming into place. Anything that our our our audience should know on kind of the finalization of the Genius Act rules? >> Um, nothing nothing we haven't anticipated. Um, I think being uh very close partners um with Congress is they've been putting legislation in place is very important to our business. Um it's also important to note that um we're very focused on regulation that um rises the tide and lifts all boats. Um you know and I think both the Genius Act

and the Clarity Act are examples of that. They they will result in more competition for Coinbase and we think that's a good thing because uh we're attacking a market that is massive, right? Um, and there's, you know, coopetition is an amazing thing, right? That I think ultimately benefits, you know, our customers and the end consumers. And we're we're really really focused on that as a company. Um, we're also, um, very focused as a company on just getting ahead of the curve on our our regulatory standing. Um, and so we've received provisional approval for our OCC trust charter. Um, and we'll be putting the payments business in that,

uh, which only gives our customers, um, kind of more regulatory asurances for the business we're building together. >> Yeah. Um, Alec, I know we're we're running tight on time here, but just curious if you could speak a bit more about what that OC business is going to look like. You mentioned the payments business going in there. Is this sort of a restructuring or a segmentation of the businesses that are all under the Coinbase umbrella? How should we think about, you know, this OC charter within the broader Coinbase ecosystem? Yeah, I'll I'll um just give a high level answer because and and maybe ask my um regulatory team to to join your podcast in the future, but the simple thing is

um we're going to be putting our custody business and our payments business in a federally licensed OC trust charter. The reason for that is um it like it basically gives our customers more regulatory pro uh protections and that's something we've been advocating for at Coinbase for a long period of time, right? and um you know in general uh clear rules and kind of staying ahead of regulation is is an incredibly important part of any financial services offering but you know maybe given some of the checkered past of crypto it's even more important for us at Coinbase to overinvest in that and so it's something we're very committed to. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you guys have been pioneers and uh stewards, you know,

since this this industry is born. So, um I mean I appreciate, you know, you guys going out there fighting the good fight and uh terrific partnership. Congratulations on the partnership between Coinbase and Mass Pay. Uh I mean, you guys are out there, you know, bringing this industry to the masses and uh couldn't thank you enough. Uh you guys are fighting the good fight. So, thank you so much for joining today. really really appreciate the time and uh would love to have you guys on again when the hundred of millions uh in volume, you know, it turns into hundreds of billions of dollars. It feels uh it feels pretty inevitable at this point.

So, thank you so much, guys. Really appreciate it. Thank you, Robbie. >> Awesome. Thank you, Robbie. >> Absolutely. We'll see you guys again soon. Thanks so much. >> Yeah. >> All right. There you have it, guys. Well, uh those uh Alec and Rand, our final guests for today. Um, and so we're going to uh check the charts, probably crack a cold one, and have a fantastic weekend. I don't know about you guys, but uh, boy oh boy.

Boy, oh boy. I mean, I just We're not going to stop. We're not going to stop. I mean, I told you uh I told you guys plenty about how we're approaching uh the market, how we're approaching portfolio construction. Uh you want to keep this in mind because ultimately, you know, you want to be stuck in the outperformers. You don't want to be stuck in the laggers. Uh there will be rotations, there will be pullbacks, there will be narratives, but guys, my goodness, are we uh are we in a new paradigm or what? Hit me with some W's in the chat. Uh, give it up for our guests for today. These guys were fantastic. I mean, we covered tokenized

funds, we covered payments, we covered hyperlid. Uh, what else what else could you guys ask for? Bitcoin is uh let's give a quick check in on the markets. I mean, we're above 77K on Bitcoin. I mean, we're just headed into the weekend. We're feeling good. I don't know what else to tell you guys. Just uh yeah, give me some dubs in the chat. You guys rock. We couldn't do it without you. Shout out to everyone who is wa rocking with us throughout the entire I don't even want to call it a bare market. Freedom guys been here every single day.

We've had Edward in the chat every single day. We've had Little Miss Gun. We've had One Armed Bandit. Y'all rock. We couldn't do it without you guys. So, big shout out to you guys. We also couldn't do it without the team in the back. Hope the team is celebrating. We're going to give the team a little homework over the weekend, but other than that, it's just go buy the coins. Just just sit back and hold. Don't sell too early. Much love to everyone behind the scenes, all of our partners, all of our sponsors, everyone in the chat. You guys rock. Couldn't do it without you guys. And uh we're gonna we're gonna see you on Monday, guys. Have an absolutely phenomenal weekend. And uh thank you very much.

We'll see you higher. [music] >> [music] [music]