🚨LIVE: Bitcoin UP, Stocks DOWN! The 2026 Winning Portfolio Explained. Harry Gao & Anant Kumar Join

Transcript

[music] [music] [music] [music] 17 >> [music] >> We'll see you around the timeline.

Feels good to be back. [music] >> I think The Rollup is one of the most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are [music] great experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding it to my library [music] as we speak. potentially multi-chain deployments. >> We are at Dev Connect day one here. I'm guessing from base. [music] [music] [music] >> [music]

[music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions.

It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. >> He said it. He finally said it. >> I'm so bullish. And he's bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. >> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music]

>> [music] >> Heat. [music] Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] >> Corola is headed [music] to the top. If

we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the roll up. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> Zoom out. The institutions aren't

coming. They're [music] simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] Welcome to the next. See you on the show. What's going on, guys? Welcome back to Tokenization Tower. You're welcome. You're watching the rollup broadcasting live from the financial capital of the world. Today's August 18th. We have a great show ahead of you today. Let's give it up for our team behind the scenes. Aon, Alex, Megan, Nero, Leo, Marcelo, Nara uh Aliona Kate Robbie the whole gang, and more. Let's give it up for them this morning. Putting in a ton of work. Good to see you, Freedom Guy in the chat. Good to see you, NFT Art

World. YouTube is not hiding the best live show. We are live here today. Great show. We got two guests. One coming here in the tower, another coming in uh after uh online uh institutional folks and kind of in in the trenches folks. And then we're going to talk about the way to structure your winning digital asset portfolio 2026, what that means. Put out this tweet yesterday kind of covering what I think the kind of fundamental leaders are for this new cycle. It's a beautiful day in New York City. I mean, you got Jersey down there. Absolutely lovely. You've got Brooklyn down there.

You can see it all. You can almost see my my apartment down here. Shout out to all the lovely sponsors. Plume, Dinari, Chris Berniski, Benjamin Graham, the New York Knicks, New Chain Link Hat, and Zama in the corner, which you can't see. And as always, our friends at Plume building onchain asset management infrastructure with their vault credit products. Visit plume.org to learn more. Guys, markets ripping. Uh, Bitcoin looks fantastic. Bitcoin bulls are about to wake the hell up. We break above 65. We wake we break above 67. Things are going to get fun. Stocks are down. A little bit worrying. You don't want to see stocks down when our finally fabled fallen Bitcoin soldier is ready to make us move. We'll talk about it. We'll see

what we see out there. As always guys, if you're watching on YouTube here, give us a like, give us a subscribe on X, same thing. Means a lot. I'm gonna go in and just make sure all my Twitter folks know that we're live and let's get this show on the road. Uh, today what do we have? We have Marcus Weather live from New York. We got the Mobius CEO joining us in the tower and the benefit street team. Uh, this is a subsidiary of Franklin Templeton. So they'll be talking to us about the uh you know rise of the institutional investor which we already know uh Dr. Miller aped purr literally smashed our bag. So did big boy Kenny Griffin was buying our per bags and PTJ Paul Tudtor Jones adding to

his IBIT positions to his Bitcoin positions. We're in a good spot. Kok, good to see you. Have a good stream. Have a great day. Kok, they're hiding you from me. Anyway, I had to turn my phone off and restart to get the show to pop up. Damn, we're getting nuked on YouTube. We're getting obliterated, huh? Too much sauce. All right, guys. Let's let's get into it. Let's get into our Marcus weather and more news section. And I I I want to get into what a winning portfolio looks like based on what I've been seeing out there. Before we do, let's get into our daily show here with Dinari. Building infrastructure for tokenized US equities and bringing real world stocks on chain.

Visit dinari.com to explore onchain access to public markets with their new product tokenized S&P 500 available to all US investors today. Guys, it's 88 degrees in New York City. Partly cloudy, pretty warm. I think it's I think it's closer to 85. Smooth 75 degrees. Yep. I had to search. No notification to be found, buddy. Damn. >> What's going on with that? Somebody on the socials team figure out why our notifications are not popping up. YouTube, not ideal. Um, yeah, warm day. Let's get into the markets, guys. Uh, before we do, let me tell you about FRA, our premier stablecoin partner. Open stable borderless. Visit fra.com to learn more about their new FRANET launch

product. Uh it's going uh quite well. Digital dollars one:1 swap mint redeem on frack.com. We have a special link for you as well in the link description. All right guys, uh what's happening in the market? Uh Bitcoin's green. Uh broke up. It's up almost 65 earlier today, which was great to see. And Ethereum is also green. Salana is green. chain linking near slightly red. Broadly, market looks good. Um, this is the this is a nice kind of testing of the higher levels of the range. We were in the lower levels of the range. Now we're back in the higher levels of the range. Also, Robbie's not here today. He's dealing with some I think he's got mold in his house. Uh he'll he'll tell you about

that tomorrow, I think. So, just me rocking today. We'll get into the markets more, but I want to just kind of go into more of the um kind of market stuff as we get into building the portfolio. So, that'll kind of uh segue us nicely, but for now, stocks are lower. You know, the S&P and the QQQ are down, you know, about half a percent and a percent and a half. Oil's up a little bit. Um tech is kind of taking a hit today. It's probably over. the inter or the intraday uh pullback isn't uh isn't over. Um and we'll see. I think um if you're looking at tech correlation, obviously you just want to see those names kind of hold up, giving us a

little bit more of a, you know, runway for uh for crypto. Oil is keeping the inflation risk alive. This is the biggest risk. Oil um in and inflation for the Fed rates and then also this Japanese yen carry trade. And then of course these long-term yields are still applying some pressure on the bond market uh which is affecting investors outlooks for kind of allocating more risk capital. But there's a ton of money slloshing around. AI names are still looking good. I think we are poised for a nice crypto rally. We'll see. We'll see what happens. All right guys, let's get into the news section and more. As always, our digital assets market is powered by our friends at Zama. Uh visit zama.org or to learn more about their confidential FHE based

computing technology. You can deposit USDC on Morpho in a confidential fashion. Uh the first confidential vault ever on Morpho with Zama's CUSDC product. Check that out. All right guys, let's get into the news and more token versus equity dynamics news markets etc. Before we do, let me tell you about Near, your home for discovering and using apps on chain. I am trading near Pers constantly now. It is my go-to trading venue for pers. one account, no borders, your financial life on chain. We will have a nearper rollup front end very, very soon for you guys. It'll be really, really good. I think you guys will be excited to see it. Um, and it'll be kind of like a rollup branded place for us to make our thesises together and

then execute them live. So, all right guys, Centrauge, a name we don't really talk about. Uh, Quantum Rose, it worked for me. I didn't found you. You guys found me on the timeline. What's going on, man? Welcome to the show. We're live every day from the Empire State Building, one of the most beautiful views in all of finance, covering crypto AI tech finance markets and more. Give us some love. Appreciate you being here. So, Centrifuge has published a governance proposal exploring a transition from token to equity. Uh, the CFG token was designed for a different centrifuge. Ah, yes. Just like many of the previous tokens were designed for a different era of well you could say extraction the business today is

institutional infrastructure and the token structure has become a constraint on the partners we can work with and the capital we can raise i.e. Every partner is asking these guys, well, why do you guys have this token and what risks and what liabilities does this token bring? This protocol explores giving eligible CFG holders the option to convert tokens into equity. Eligible. Um, basically, I think this is something that I expect to happen. I think there's going to be more of this. This kind of comes back to the last couple conversations we've been having on the show yesterday with Rob and then I think Friday which was about token versus equity was it was about buybacks whether or not they work was about durability of

revenue. You know a lot of these companies are now being faced by the pressures of the market who you know we see this right now with Venice. Venice is having an amazing day. However, the community just won't stop yelling at their CEO Eric Vorhees about the token equity split. And we see this now in the discourse and in the rhetoric. And so I expected more teams to follow centrifug. I think that they're on the right track. I don't think it really is going to affect anything in the token market. I also think it's going to be very hard for them to resend the token and issue equity. Um and how eligible holders versus non-eligible holders will be

determined. What happens to the eligible holders who don't select to do this? What happens to the ineligible holders? So, good to see you shine. Good morning. Hope you're doing well. Hope you're riding this move. Bitcoin looks great. Lighter looks great. Pump holding up. Near Zcash, Venice, a lot of our a lot of our favorite coins doing well. Shine. So, hope you're doing well. Um, so yeah, man. I think this is a consistent trend that's going to continue to happen and I wouldn't expect anything less from teams feeling the pressure of the market. What is the CFG token doing? CFG.

So, I guess it rallied a little bit on this news, but it had this massive pump uh earlier in the year and it's pretty much fully retraced it um you know down a good 70% from May. So, yeah, I mean one last ditch effort here I suppose. So, hope they do well. Um, hope that tokenized equity can better align their what they're building with institutional capital. It's actually funny that some of the pre-token companies now have an advantage than than those who already launched token. All right, let's keep it rolling. So, there's this new rhetoric going around P&L is the new way to show legitimacy. And it's like basically saying um, you know, soft influence doesn't matter. you know, if you have

P&L, then you know, your profit is uh the thing that determines your value in the market and you know, if you're not showing this profit publicly, well, you're not, you know, capable of commanding attention. And it's pretty silly. Like we've never actually had a world where any crypto OG who has any amount of ask any crypto OG. I'm so on with Rhino here. While I think it's amazing to, you know, go on FOMO and maybe hit a 100x and talk about how great of a trader you are because you got lucky or you were a part of some bundled

uh low market cap meme. Talk to any crypto OG out there with I'm talking over 500 coins, 500 Bitcoin. They do not want anyone to know what they have, to know how much size they have. And so if you scroll down a bit, this is also very relevant here. Rhino says, "Yeah, I've never known anyone who would ever, you know, take advantage of being a wealthy ducks individual that used their false error of legitimacy to commit wrongdoing. That would be absurd. In fact, that's exactly what happens."

>> Embarrassing. >> Exactly what happens. And so, while I get the premise of this whole like you need to be showing all your profits and making all your money, I personally would not feel comfortable with like a million dollars on FOMO or like having a ton of public doed wallets with my main holdings in them. Doesn't make any sense to me. I don't get I don't get why anyone would want that. Like it's just like a young new to money personality trait to want to have all your holdings shown out there and and how great of a trader you are because you have money out there. That's per it's just like

I don't know. Real G's move in silence. Lil Wayne was right. Crypto OG's will believe privacy is what matters. I don't want to be on the wrong side of history when it comes to people that are angry because you've made a bunch of money on FOMO and you did it in public. Salana outperforming E Salana, baby. Yeah, interesting new type. Good to see you. All right, guys. Let's get into Venice because I think this is what's happening. This is what's pumping and I think the audience needs to hear about this. Eric Vorhees and Mark Zeer going back to back to back. Uh before we [snorts] do, let me tell you about one inch. You may have heard this concept of shared liquidity flying around. Products like 1-in Aqua allow you to approve one wallet balance to back multiple

positions at the same time across pairs, ranges, and chains. It's a totally different way to keep your liquidity active in more markets. If you want to learn more, check out 1inch.com/aqua. So, our boy Zeer here, who's a notable critic in the industry. Um, okay. Yes, it's a human emotion. Humans love aura farming new type. Yeah, I agree. And I don't mean there's anything wrong with like, you know, saying you got something right. Like we've been doing that on the show. Like, oh, we've been right on hype. We've been right on lighter. But I'm not over here like posting a screenshot of my, I don't know, like, you know, multiple six figure trade profit. I'm banking that. I don't even want my girlfriend to know

that, you know. I don't want my mother to know that. I don't want my my freaking friends to know that. I don't want family members to know that. So, I don't know, man. I get the aura farming thing, but a wise man once told me that the easiest way to get rid of people is to give them some money. And I think all that you ask by posting your big gains is just asking people is having people ask you for money, and that's going to end with them not being your friend anymore. What's the best long-term Salana meme coin to hold? Top three. Dude, come on. That sentence is just ridiculous. looked into VV after the opening rider news as I think Venice is a genuinely superior product. But I'm sitting this one out.

Equity holders own the strategic assets and that recent round was structured as equity plus token warrants. This means the company can ultimately turn itself in you know turn itself against the token holders I think is what the end of that tweet said. Eric says equity has rights limited liquidity and token has rights has liquidity or sorry limited rights has liquidity. Some revenues have began flowing to token. Zero revenues has flowed to equity. Equity is the largest holder of the token and benefiting the token is one of the highest leverage things equity can do to serve its own interest. Second largest token holder is myself, Giga Whale. I mean Eric is like I mean Eric is like fullon like posteconomic 9 10 figures.

Um we chose to sell dilute equity rather than selling the token. And so basically the there's a lot of skepticism right now around Venice because people don't really know if they should invest in this thing even though it's the leading AI company in the space along with Near and they have a really good founder and they have a really really good product but this token equity dynamic is just proving to be a problem. They raised $65 million at a billion dollar valuation by diluting equity instead of selling tokens. uh investors receiving 9% equity plus locked token grants and warrants.

So that's the issue guys is they sold the token they sold the investors equity and token warrant so that they get double dipped and that's what the community is upset about because when I buy the Venice token I don't buy Venice equity that's the big issue and it sucks that Venice is like the brunt of this token versus equity conversation because there's so many let's call them worse suspects of this in the market. So many in fact all of them right um in that have operated in the previous regime are suspects.

Venice is up 15% today. It's trading at 14 20 14.2 two up pretty significantly off the lows at 1175. The market doesn't seem to care and I don't know if they should. I don't this might be one of those moments that you look back and you're like wow the Venice token verse equity FUD was like the generational entry before the next bull cycle of Venice and of the market at large.

I don't know if you should care. I know that's kind that's kind of like counterintuitive from what we've been saying, but I think they're doing a good enough job. I think they're doing a good enough job. I don't know if it's I don't know if you have to care. Like I really don't know if you have to care that the token and equity complex isn't as dialed as you'd want it to be cuz it's far more investable than a lot of the other protocols and tokens in the market. They're making they've got a hund00 million um ARR four million users completely breakout product private uncensorable AI.

I don't know if you should care. I don't know that you need to care. I think it's a buy between 10 and 14, 10 and 12 ideally. I'm not even sure if you get 10 again. Maybe, maybe we get a wash out in the space and you get 10. Maybe. I do like the transparency though because it helps show who's really correct out here. It's easy to say you called something when there's no way to verify it. People love lying about their calls. Yeah, that's true. New type. If you like memecoins, the first cat on the blockchain, Shine says, not our type. We don't even think you can hold memes long term. I think that's a I think that's a

juxtaposition or a I think that's a a weird statement. Um all right, let's keep it rolling. Uh so Justin's son is trolling everybody. So, uh, HTX is his, um, Huobi is like his, uh, exchange or like an exchange that he has a large ownership in and, um, well, he is under sanctions in the UK and EU. And so what he's doing is he's sending tiny USDT transfers to addresses tied to Coinbase, Binance, and Hyperlquid just to troll them, just to put them in the in harm's way.

literally sending what is basically sanctioned Tether to these addresses on purpose to either implicate these exchanges or give the regulators a much bigger headache. Isn't that a joke? Isn't that so [clears throat] funny? So, Binance and others are literally restricting any activity from HTX linked wallets. And Justin Sun is just spamming their users with Tether that's coming from Huobi.

>> Justin Sun is weaponizing regulatory compliance against his competitors because he's in trouble by sending them free money that is supposedly not allowed to be interacted with. Welcome to the bare market August 2026. This is where we're at. All right, guys. Let's get into Bit Miner and Micro Strategy. Before we do, let me tell you about Zama, our premier confidential and uh computing partner. Zama is a is building out impressive confidential applications on any blockchain. Visit zama.org to learn more about what they're doing with confidentiality on chain. Bit mine is outperforming Micro Strategy by 75% off the lows. So Tom Lee

keeps smashing the bid on Ethereum and Sailor keeps selling Bitcoin or MSTR to free up his STRC, his stretch dividend backlog. So he's got about $5 billion in cash that is going to be saved for stretch dividend payments. Meanwhile, Tom Lee announced that he was going to start his own similar stretch product. I'm not sure how far he got along with that, but this trade has been cooking.

I mean, it is up 75%. And Ethereum versus Bitcoin has been outperforming significantly as well. And so when you start to think about why you look at the dynamics of these two vehicles and it's very clear that Micro Strategy is playing a short-term catchup game where they have to appease various holders of their products and Tom Lee is literally just tewing Ethereum every single week trying to increase ETH per share of Bitine to send that thing higher. And what's

the result? As you see, 75% gain against Micro Strategy. Bit mine is cooking against Micro Strategy right now. Tom Lee is in an undoubtedly better position than Michael Sailor right now. Undoubtedly better position. It is not even close. Tom Lee is dragging Michael Sailor right now. dragging him. ETH Bitcoin ratio looks great. If Ethereum breaks out here against Bitcoin, it will be confirmed high time frame in our opinion, high time frame bottoms in.

Tom Lee's been smacking that chart all around Wall Street. It looks good. It looks good. It looks good. I haven't looked at it in the last couple days, but let's see what it looks like. Yeah. I mean, it's putting up a fight. It looks good. And they've been notably promoting that ETH Bitcoin chart across all of the Bit Mine um across all of the Bit Mine kind of social pages and more. It looks good. Lighter looks amazing, too.

So, just interesting. ETH ETH looks to have stronger bid, less overhang, less narrative risk right now and stronger technical structure when priced against Bitcoin and a better purchase purchaser in tumbling. It's interesting. All right, guys, let's get into our daily equity powered by our friends at dinari talking about the greatest risks in the equity market which I think is particularly prevalent for us today. Crypto is up, equities are down. Not sure how long that can last.

Let's discuss the key risks in the equity markets as it pertains to your crypto portfolio and let's talk about the best way to position for crypto for the rest of the year into 2027. Let's get into it. [music] All righty. The greatest risks in the equity market are in three places. Interest rate volatility because of higher inflation. The carry trade unwinding as foreigners are all max leveraged long AI stocks. The excess leverage that has been pushed into the AI space has not been unwound. So, real quick before we get into the thread,

interest rate volatility. One, the risk here is that the Fed increases interest rates because they're worried about the oil prices due to the war being too high, thus causing inflation to be too high. Excuse me. The carry trade unwinding, which is the Japanese yen versus US dollar carry trade or Japanese yen across, you know, a number of different currencies. investors go there, they put this carry trade on because the yen is notably weak and you can kind of keep it in this rangebound formation giving you a very low chance of liquidation with a lot of margin capability um effectively to put on this carrier trade in size that would be a problem if these

foreigners need to basically sell their AI stocks go back pay off their margin in Japan and unwind their carry trade. So that'd be the other one. And then three is just the excess leverage, which is investors piling into ETFs that are leveraged on this memory dip. And so if you scroll down, go through each of these tweets here. So here's the kind of like the broader uh chart. So here's the uh 30-year real rates. Um and basically they keep going up. Problem yields are going higher. Uh the long end of the yield curve is going higher. Any investor will tell you that this is problematic for uh equities at large.

This means bonds are contracting significantly. Bond yields are increasing. The the price of bonds are decreasing and this is essentially pulling the Fed's leg and saying the long end is pricing the difference of this inflation risk. So that's chart number one. Let's keep scrolling through here. Chart number two is the uh the uh curve that we just showed you. The long end of the bond yields going up because the bonds are collapsing. The long end of the curve is basically saying that growth and inflation are higher than the Fed may realize and that without some sort of rate increase, well, this is going to be a problem. Bonds are going to keep selling off. High end of the or long end of the of the curve is going to

keep increasing. And we have an issue here where we need to create a a balance where there's an imbalance. So that's what's happening with with with the yields keep going down. So that's kind of like the main inflation risk. And then basically what he's showing here is that what happens when long and rates blow out, which is what's happening. The yield curves are ripping um and the VIX comes back up. Right now the volatility index is at nearly all-time lows um or very low. What happens when this rips back up? People get a little bit more fearful. Long end of the curve is super high and we get this kind of unwinding.

Well, that's the that's the that's the risk. Keep going down. So, that's kind of like the unwinding risk. Uh what what about forex? And what about the carry trade? And so, this is a carry trade index of um basically the managed G10 currencies. And this all comes back into Japan. You can see all-time highs. It's ripping. It's not supposed to be doing this another issue. Keep keep on going. You have you have a lot of foreign investors investing in the US. And then you've got this ne this negative real rate happening in Japan where if we get a carry trade unwind, which means that investors sell their US stocks, go back and unwind their Japanese carry trade at

the same time as interest rate volatility spikes, meaning that uh Fed Chair Walsh comes out and says, "Hey, like we're going to raise rates because oil is too high." This is the biggest risk. The biggest risk is that you get the Japanese yen carry trade unwinding while you have ch Fed chairman Worsh signaling that he wants to increase rates or he's going to increase rates because inflation is too high. And if you scroll down a bit more, you kind of get to the conclusion here where um a lot of these stocks are ripping. Keep going down. These leverage ETFs of Micron, Drram, SanDisk, uh Storage Cloud, Neocloud, Semiconductor ETFs, they're absolutely ripped. You keep

going down, you'll see that on this recent dip of memory, investors actually added to their leveraged ETF positions. that top is they added to these positions on the dip in leverage ETFs. So now there's more leverage in the system on this move down meaning investors wanting, you know, get more exposure to this and they and they want to be bullish. So that's the issue. That's the leverage issue. And so you keep going down, you get you kind of get to here the end here where these are the three clear risks based on the macro flows. They're not boomer speculations.

are directly correlated to how actual buyers and sellers are making decisions. We're not seeing these risks materialize, which is why I'm not bearish. We could move so much higher in a meltup that no one expects. However, this will 100% be climbing a wall of worry because there are real risks that need to be hedged. And so, ladies and gentlemen, the markets are still fragile. This is what is happening in the in the equities market. These are the three risks that pertain to your crypto investments. If equities have a significant pullback, we will see crypto struggle. Today, what are we seeing today? We're seeing crypto perform quite strong even though equities are down. That will not last. Unfortunately,

that will not last. We need equities to continue strength to allow Bitcoin to really have a breakout. That's what we need. That's what we need. Ladies and gentlemen, that is a Daily Equity powered by our friends at Dinari. Thanks for being a part of it. I'm going to take a super quick break and then we're going to get into building a winning portfolio in 2026 based on buybacks, durable revenue, and this new era that we're investing in in 2026. Guys, drop your questions in the chat about your your portfolio. What are you buying? What are you selling? What questions do you have for me? And we'll get into it. I'll see you guys in less than 30 seconds.

Heat. Heat. [music] [music] [music] Heat. Heat.

know we get deep [music] know we get deep we get deep know we get deep [music] we get we get deep we get deep we get we get >> [music] >> You know we get we get deep. [music] We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep.

[music] All right, freedom guy. I didn't mean to upset you, man. I I didn't know that your question about long-term meme coins was a serious question. I'm sorry. Sorry. Uh Benjamin Cohen thinks we're on the cusp of interest rate hike cycle now. Yeah, that would be that would be that would be the nail in the coffin for the four-year cycle. That would be guaranteed new lows for Bitcoin. And that's that's what that equity risk that that capital flows was talking about basically is is like do we get that um all you need to really buy in a spot is following lit hype Bitcoin Ze buy spot and DCA mansion later. I agree that's kind of what I'm

doing to be honest with you. That's that's the plan. That's the plan. All right guys, winning portfolio allocation for 2020 27 2026. Um what does this mean? Why is this important? Who the cares? Well, hopefully you do because you're an investor. Hopefully you um you know want to succeed. So, let me just start. What has changed in 2026 and 2027 that was not relevant back then that back in the you know previous eras? Well, we now have a set of fundamentally strong onchain businesses in this new era that are investable. So, back in 2017, 20 uh 2018,

it was extremely easy to invest in crypto. That's when I entered. You could pretty much buy anything in early 2017 on Bitrex and have sold in late 2017 and made anywhere from a three to a 100x. It was that it was that easy. It was one year of every listed token was going to pump and none of them were any good. None of them were good. They were all just memes wrapped up behind white papers of ICO error.

Fast forward all the way through 2017, 2020, 2023 to where we are now. We went through this whole iteration of high FTV, low float, L1's, L2s, infra where we've got is ironically a similar place to 20 to 2017 and 2018. It is now, I believe, just as easy to invest in this market as it was back then. But it's the opposite. It is not buy anything and it's going to three or 100x. It's there's only so many businesses worth investing in.

The investable pool of assets in the space has shrunk so much that it's simpler than ever to pick the right tokens for the next cycle. Here's what I mean. The leading assets for the next cycle are going to be the ones that are highly fundamentally strong, have revenue producing onchain businesses, and pay investors or token holders in the form of buybacks. That is undoubtedly the recipe for success. Excuse my zen. The leaders of the fundamentally revenue producing onchain business era of the next cycle will be the tokens that you can buy in this second half of 2026, Q3 2026, Q4 2026 and hold through 2027 for

long-term capital gains in your in your you know jurisdiction of choice and sell in 2028 for a massive win. It is it is I believe that simple. So, I'm going to pull up on on the screen here the tweet that that I put out the new leaders of the fundamental revenue producing uh onchain business era of the next cycle. And I think it is this simple. I think it is this simple. I think it is as simple as as as this. And so you can see here the new leaders of the fundamental revenue producing onchain business era of the next cycle.

Hyperlid circle poly market pump tether letter near fomo arrow derive relay a re etherfy unis swap fra variational chain lick morpho sky ore. I probably missed venice probably miss pendle and maybe a couple others. Guys, you can shorten this list based on which have tokens and you can already take off FOMO, Tether, Variational, and a couple others. Maybe you can shorten this list to five names and you can allocate your portfolio into

three in size outside of your core major holdings, right? So you got your Bitcoin holdings, you got your, you know, your ETH and your Zcash. You got your store of value assets. Whether you want to put ETH in that bucket or not, that's up to you. But you got your Bitcoin, you got your Zcash. Those are your store value assets for the cycle that have God knows the upside and there's no revenue we have to argue about. There's no adoption metrics we got to argue about. We just need to hold them for as long as possible and endure the volatility of those two maybe three uh Ethereum.

And that's kind of like the store of value barbell. And then the other barbell is revenue producing onchain businesses that have really strong buybacks and treat their token holders like first class citizens. Hyperlid one of my biggest ones. Pump is now in that for me. And we talked about yesterday when the doubters of the revenue become believers you get these massive reratings that happened to pump. As of as of late I don't think it's over yet. I don't own circle in the equity market. I think it could it could be it could be interesting and you can just go down the list right I don't have equity in in poly market don't have equity in tether I own

lighter I own near don't have equity in FOMO arrow derive relay a right and you can kind of go go down this list and you can see different revenue metrics and you can see different um market cap valuations you can apply your own mental framework to picking from these names I own Etherfi right I own chain link Right. Morpho might rip. Sky is doing just as much revenue as Hyperlink could last, you know, this week, but is valued at one 25th.

So guys, while it's not 2017 or 2018 anymore, and it's not like uh you can just shoot fish in the barrel with a, you know, nice little bow and arrow. It is about as easy to invest in the space if you can just get through the rest of this year. Midterm years are typically pretty bad for crypto and you can think about your long-term capital gain strategy with high quality assets with a barbell of store values, Bitcoin, Zcash, maybe ETH if you really like it. I think I think it it it could have a massive run. and then revenue producing onchain businesses that treat

token holders like first class citizens. What you want to avoid is everything in the middle. The bloated infra with no users and no revenue. The the old taste of L1's and L2s with no real revenue or no real tokconomics that are you know beneficial. The you know big unlock hype narrative tokens. the old tokens that have no real product or or business. You want to avoid that fluff in the middle and you want to stick to the store of value assets and you want to stick to the revenue producing onchain businesses.

Bitcoin and Zcash unlimited potential, less of a floor, right? Higher ceiling, lower floor. these revenue producing onchain businesses perhaps have a lower ceiling than a Bitcoin or a Zcash or an ETH, right? You can't really say that, you know, I don't know a Hyperlid could ever get to a trillion dollar market cap, right? That would be unreal, right? It's a business. It can always be measured on cash flows, right? You know, I don't know that. But can something like Zcash get to 500 billion without an explanation? I think so.

something like Bitcoin gets to 5 trillion without an explanation. I think so. So, you see like the store values have a higher ceiling. But can Zcash or Bitcoin go from their next cycle highs down I mean specifically Zcash down 85%. Sure as hell can. Can Bitcoin pull down easily another 75? Sure as hell could. However, with the revenue producing tokens, you could argue that they may not be able to reach the trillions or the extra inflated market cap because you can always apply a PTE ratio on these things. You can always have a cash flow base valuation metric. But are these things ever going to trade, you

know, is Etherfy ever going to trade at, you know, under 50 million again? No, it makes that in a year, right? or is Hyperlid ever going to trade, you know, at less than uh, you know, 12 to 15x earnings? It makes a billion dollars a year. Well, probably not, unless something catastrophic happens. And so with these revenue producing onchain businesses, you kind of get a lower ceiling, but a more I don't, you know, a more steady floor because all there's always a value investor willing to come in and buy that thing when it's undervalued based on cash flows.

And that is what I think is the winning portfolio structure for 2026 and 2027. It is the barbell between a store of value asset portfolio and a basket of your favorite fundamental revenue producing onchain businesses. That is the winning portfolio allocation for 2025 and 2026. What about stocks BLSH Galaxy Hoodcoin? Yes, great question. Totally agree. I think stocks could easily be a part of this. We have circle in in in here. We might see a poly market IPO and they those all make money and can be

a part of this revenue producing businesses. So I agree, hoodcoin, bit go etc. I think you you could you you know circle Coinbase I think that could be a part of your revenue producing onchain business kind of category and I think that they will do well. Canon or Jupiter Geo Salana Cake all in the top 30 for token holders revenue in the 30-day rank in DeFi llama. Yep. Yep. I missed a couple. How do you guys have 24 live viewers for this high quality content? Bare market in full effect.

Love the buyback equity topics. You guys are discussing very decent information. Thank you. I believe we're at 40 concurrent right now. Uh the bull is coming. Thank you, Luca, for the shout out. Um just give it time. These guys will be huge someday. Honestly, I see the team from Block Works acquiring or hiring Andy and Rob. This guy, New Type's funny, man. Uh Little Miss Gun says, "Rocket. I'm glad you're here, Miss Gun. Great to always have you. I bought a small bag of XST on Phantom for some bull market fund. Have you ever heard of it?" new type that is for you, buddy. I will leave the DGEN Freedom Guy content to you, sir. Guys, we got our first guest in the building. We're going to get him up. We're going to be right back. Give us about two or three minutes and we're going to get the show on the

road. Thanks for rocking with us. Hope you guys enjoyed that segment. I'll be around for more questions uh and comments on on portfolio stuff uh after our guests. See you guys in just a sec. [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] [music] Heat. Heat.

>> [music] >> We get deep. We get deep. [music] We get deep. We get We get deep. We get deep. We get [music] We get deep. You know, we get [music] Know [music] we get deep. [music] We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. [music]

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[music] We get >> yo yo yo. What's going on guys? This is Itan with the rollup. We're going to be patrolling the streets of New York City getting answers to the questions that you guys have most. What are people trading? What are people investing in? How much do people actually budget? We're going to have people from all over all different investment classes. People who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212.

[music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> Going

70. All righty, guys. We're live here at the Nest with Harry. Harry, good to have you, buddy. Welcome to the show. >> Thank you for having me. >> Sick office. Great production. Always. Nice talk to you, man. >> Yeah, man. It's good to see you in the city. I'm sure you're busy doing meetings and uh talking to market makers investors friends family etc. So, good to have some time with you here. And um I understand you guys are getting active on Robin Hood chain.

>> Exactly. >> Which is uh quite the quite the hot topic as of the last month. I mean, they came out of the woodwork and just I mean, they're dominating dominating all metrics across L2. So, crazy launch. Yeah, absolutely. I think there are several reasons why they are doing so great and I think this is only just the beginning. Uh I think the reason why we chose Robin Hood chain was I think for mostly for business reason I would say uh technically there are some that are using the arbitrum stack. So um it's absolutely green flag. Um I think on the business side of things I what I've been pounding for a very long time uh there's a one business concept called aggregation theory. Um it's basically about like every successful internet

business or durable business that can last for decades. They always aggregated demand and the supply kind of a commod commoditize around that. And if if you look at crypto >> for last decades we're kind of like building that backwards. You have the chains, you have the supplies, you need to incentivize the users, uh you need to do the air jobs, the TVs and incentives and all that just so that people can come in and use your application. And uh if everything works out they stick with your chain but most of the time they are just a mercenary. The reason why is they are the industry were kind of like building around the supply first. We're aggregating the supply first. Now the block space is very cheap. Uh instead of doing that I think it's

probably uh just going back to the business school concept of the aggregation theory. Instead of just aggregating on supply, you just aggregate on the demand. Who has the best demand um >> aggregation vehicle in crypto right now is basically Robin of chain like they have probably like close to 30 million funded users and any single one of the users are directly translatable to their onchain applications nowadays. Yeah. >> So that's I think it's a very exciting time to be and that's really the the most important reason why we are choosing Robin Hood chain right now. >> Yeah man. And so, um, what is it that struck you about, you know, wanting to launch it this product and kind of what is this product on Robin Hood chain? Why is it needed? Why are you guys launching

this there? Um, you know, what is the what is the nuts and bolts of of the Mobius exchange product on Robin and Chain? >> Yeah, exactly. So I think the one sentence pitch uh is basically that Mobius or Mob exchange as we just rename it is basically a margin and yield engine for all on asset specifically uh tokenized stock. So I think um the the the oursis is basically that historically speaking every new asset when you move on to a new settlement rail uh there is going to be a credit layer on top of that and we are basically the credit layer on top of that. Uh if you look at the euro dollars

like ETFs uh historically speaking there is a basically you need a kind of this financing layer. So now we have the basically the tokenized the stock uh that's moving onchain and uh instead of just trading on the Robin Hood applications now you can actually trade it 247 instead of just 20% of the time of the week and now you can add leverage on top of that you can trade on lighter you can trade on hyperlquid um all this uh leverage engines uh so to the retail users I think it's just by itself like even without our product it's very attractive to people who want to trade already um and on top of that what we're trying to build is a cross margin there.

So because there are there has been a proliferation of a perexis out there uh the user interfaces are fragmented uh the liquidity are very fragmented and uh if you want to do cross margin trade you can only do that on one single exchange like hyperlquid or lighter um wouldn't it be nice to cross margin your positions across the different perexes. Yeah. >> Right. So that's basically how it really came about. So me personally, I I had run my own strategy um since I got into crypto and my favorite strategy is basically the basis trade like you can um carry a spot asset, you can short the same asset on very liquid purpose exchange. So now you can actually do

that on hyperlquid on lighter and on top of that if you really I would say it's probably car trade on stero story is basically the funding rate of charge you can find arbitrage across the different exchange >> uh this has always been um the go to strategy for hedge funds who operates in crypto >> but it's never been made accessible to the uh retail users right >> uh the reason for that is because there's no um infrastructure support for retail to do this kind of trade.

Normally the the uh institutions do this through prime brokers. So they can they have their credit account, they can borrow the credit then um they're they're essentially 10 times more capital efficient if not more so than retail users. Yeah. >> So through our product uh we have the infrastructure to for every retail user basically to do the same. You can uh do fund rate arbitrage across the different perexes. You can long shore same asset on uh Harper liquid lighter or Robin lighter on main lighter or whatever perplex that we're gonna integrate.

>> And so just to just to kind of like uh round it out. So I I come in, you know, I got 10 I got 10,000 bucks of USDC. Um I come into Mobius and I want to put on a position that is a uh a kind of a cross venue strategy. Yeah. And so I deposit the capital into Mobius and it is entered into a strategy on my behalf similar to like a vault or the platform is essentially I'm able to then go and leverage my capital across multiple platforms on my own with like using my own strategy like you guys are providing the strategy or or I am providing the strategy >> that that's a great question. So we're actually doing both. So we provide the

instru like I think we we covered that we provide infrastructure for that. is totally built on top of the TE because we want basically want to build a very trustless version of that. >> Um and we actually enable two different modes. So the first mode it's a self-directed strategy meaning that if you go to our website is live now. Uh you can go there you can see that it's basically a trading front end. You can get connected to different trading venues. Then you can actually launch any strategy that you have uh running your own customized strategy depending on your personal uh risk preference. Um and uh we'll later add um a bunch of other like a supported features later. We help you rebalance or rebalance the position all that. So um that's basically the

selfdirected aspect of the of the product. The second part is basically a yield product which is exactly a vault for people who doesn't really want to manually manage their strategies. They can basically put the money into the vault and we really run run the strategy for you and eventually we're going to make it permissionless. So any team that's running successful strategy can come into the platform and spin up a vault and use our infrastructure to do any kind of like a cross margin trades >> and and and so active today on Robin Hood chain users can get in there and deposit into the vaults that you guys have already uh established. Um any amount is you know one USDC 100,000 a million doesn't matter. So one caveat to

that is that the vault is not live today yet. Okay. We're test I I should say it's live internally. We've been running the vault for ourselves for couple months but the contract itself uh is still currently undergoing the audit. Yep. >> So the vault product should be live if everything works well should be live around September midepptember. Great. So by then like there's really no upper bound or low. I guess that there will be an upper bound in the very beginning. we can't just really handle like super massive trade like like we can't rebalance position that's 1 million at one tie. So there should be an upper bound but there should be no lower bound. Anybody can just put >> and and the thesis from the business side is is it is it just a fee on aum type of business model? How do you guys

think about you know scaling the the kind of business line of launching this product? Yeah, I think um on the business side of things like historically speaking I think in crypto there are in my opinion there are only two ways that can make sustainable revenue. One is through trading fees. The other is more balance sheet driven. So the first one is basically any exchange is like trading fee driven or any roll up is trading fee driven trading fee driven like you just charge um a percentage of the users fee uh to your platform. uh and the balance driven part is basically any lending particle any stable coin particle you just take a fraction of the yield. So actually we're because of the nature of our product

we're actually doing both on the trading side because the user can actually you can do it just trade on hyperord light or open your self-direct directed strategy. So we charge a fee on that on top of that very small fee or on the vault product it's business more balance driven we run the strategy you put in the money and we generate yield and we take >> y so it's very two very simple sustainable business model >> yep yeah awesome yeah I mean you know this entire kind of like vault complex is really started to grow and expand in terms of uh use case and and people are really trying to get like a lot of the institutional allocators interested as well um different types of strategies he's on chain 24/7. You know, when it

comes to the beauty of using something like lighter or hyperlquid, what is it about that these venues that allow you to kind of execute your strategy seamlessly? Like what is it about lighter instance on Robin Hood chain that is, you know, obviously they're still kind of growing their their OI and liquidity there, but what is it about these per venues that kind of enables you to crack different types of yield generating strategies for your users? Yeah, I think uh the two platforms we currently integrate are hyperlquid a lighter I think no surprise there they are the best out there. So each have its own strength. Hyperliquid being the first kind of the DYDS technically is probably earlier than that but like in my opinion the first successful perpetu

they have been there for two years three years I think they have a loyal community. Um so as such um they have probably the best liquidity out there. >> Uh lighter as the latecomer I think they have all their all you needs to really take on this challenge. So they have amazing team and the product wise one thing that really um I I personally really like so zero fee there's no taker fee no maker fee for regular users. So if you are um doing any kind of a market making strategies like I personally run marketing strategy across the main lighter and the robin lighter y >> uh it doesn't really matter like maker orders take orders so there's no fees

unless you want some like latency advantage but my strategy doesn't really require that but the product that we build currently we don't require any latency advantage as well so it's a zero fees um and uh the I think lighter only charge fees for premium accounts which is like professional market makers. Um so, uh at the expense like that that's kind of like the the trade-off they make like you for a better user experience >> um and for basically essentially zero trading fees for users. So I think that's huge advantage any perex that want to attract the retail users. You know, I'm I'm curious to get your opinions just from the block space and kind of understanding the trenches of of how a lot of these strategies

works. Perex is but also this concept of prop amms has been really really glorified over the last several months and also implemented. Um >> I'm sure you remember that that um M team guy that the young buck. >> Absolutely. >> Um I think they just launched a product called Bye-bye. >> Byebye. Yes. Um I I know FedE and the Lambda class team are cranking hard on propm products as well for Ethereum. >> Just kind of a update there lay of the land like have have we seen success? Have we have we proven the model? Is this the go-to? Like from your understanding and and expertise around blockspace around Ethereum kind of what's your honest view of the uh you know upsides and downsides to this prop

AMM concept? Yeah, I mean like I've been following along like what are the latest products I dabble with. I think there's been a very popular challenge by like Dan Robinson from Paradigm like call like probably mm challenge. I dabble that as well. Um I I don't have a very strong opinion because I'm probably not very educated on the latest stuff but in my opinion I could be wrong like just don't yell at me [laughter] but but I feel like it's it's essentially RFQ. It's onchain RFQ RSQ onchain RFQ system and you can't >> you can't do this onchain on Ethereum mainet for example in a very slow manner because this is the block time is slow the low throughput but you can do this

on Salana or base or whatever u basically you just need to figure out like your curve right >> yeah so that that's that's how the mechanics of it how it works um and I think Um I I don't I don't think technically it's a a very new thing compared to the old RFQ model, but what the buy is doing is very interesting is that they're actually having they actually have their own front end and I tried that personally. It's a really good front end.

>> But um >> yeah, it's almost like you can just type what you want. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, that is cool. >> Yeah. So analogy of that is kind of reminds me of the early days of Zerx because Zerx starts out as basically RFQ service >> and then later the launch of matcha which is basically trading front end. >> Y so by could be like a com a combination of the both but what exactly is the winning strategy being a prop AMM other than getting a large amount of orderflow? Um I honestly don't know I don't have a very good answer for that.

Yeah, >> but it's very interesting space. >> Are are you a lighter bull? Are you a Are you a LIT token bull? >> Yeah, absolutely. I'm farming that right now. So, yeah, like we're building products. >> Oh, on Robin Hood chain, right? The the points just launched. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. 11 million tokens uh up for grabs. >> Very exciting time. Very exciting. >> So, you're bullish. >> Very bullish. >> You see, you know, you see Hyperlid obviously explode and you know, you see lighter as like the, you know, like the one and two punch there. Yeah, absolutely. I think I see Hyper Hyper Liquid has been dominating for two years at this point. I I want to see someone that can really not taking its place but to be a very capable competitor, you

know. Yeah. Lighter has all he needs to be that. >> Yeah. And as far as some of your own other [snorts] portfolio holdings like still bullish Bitcoin, ETH, >> ETH, ETH, still even though like I I >> still bullish ETH, right? >> Yeah. I'm I no longer it's maybe more for nostalgic value because this where I started like I still >> like the people from uh Ethereum Foundation and the people who left the Ether Foundation still very much working within the Ethereum ecosystem. >> Uh so I hold ETH for I would say for nostalgia.

>> Yeah. I support that >> but I I would say um Litz ETH uh are basically two of my biggest holdings. >> Yeah. I mean, lighter is like the best example of what Ethereum can provide to an onchain app. He's like ZK proofs latency rollup ccentric, you know, roadmap like exemplary uh you know, just example of of what you can build on Ethereum. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. >> What about like um the whole like Zcash privacy stuff? Is that interesting to you at all? I think I like honestly this is this is probably a very bizarre angle but I I'm gonna just say like I I lately

have been become so interested in compute market. >> Okay. >> Like the financialization of compute. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And then there's a very niche problem I think that some people brought it up but more on the AI side of things. Yeah. >> Which is how do you aggregate GPU hours. >> Okay. So there hasn't been a lot of index products. So like silicon data uh or RN actually don't know how to pronounce that but like those are the top two like comput index products. Yeah >> they say that hey we aggregate a bunch of like compute hours and they they use data to generate the index product on top of that. And exactly where do they get those compute um price like the supply and demand uh price of that the

transactions it's a very much hidden. >> Yeah. um for good reasons because large suppliers don't actually want to disclose their fault. It's very much like RFQ like in crypto. So the compute the ours is also RFQ system. They just want to throw it out there. >> So um it's hidden. It's very much hidden. They probably have some kind of like contracts in place. They aggregate the data from this new cloud and large providers and they are able to generate this value. But yeah, >> if you can actually have I'm just wondering if you can have some some kind like a privacy layer where you can guarantee that this the pri the data that you aggregate is reliable.

>> Y >> uh and it's from like provider MBNC they don't have to disclose that their that's their price. If you can aggregate their data, generate this value that's uh trustless verifiable >> I think that's definitely an edge there compared to uh the existing providers which kind of in a way like I can't really find how they aggregate their data. >> Yeah, that's the beauty of pers and the beauty of um onchain is that you can get these 247 >> exactly >> um derivatives markets for things that maybe previously wouldn't have existed.

>> Yes. Um, so the rise of compute markets is like directly correlated to the success of I think hyperlquid and lighter. >> Like I'm sure the NAS I'm sure NASDAQ and KHIE and CME and all these are going to launch futures and things, but this is going to become a >> another per 24/7 tradable contract globally with no KYC. I mean it's hard to >> it's just hard to like argue that. I mean then ASD can launch 24/7 trading they can do as much as they want but >> 247 global no KYC on anything. It's like okay like so we're in a good spot. So I know we're kind of short on time Harry.

I think you you may have brought the team here something special um as we kind of come to a close man but uh just kind of get give us what the road map for Mobius looks like for the end of the year and early next and kind of how you're thinking about that. >> Yes. So like I said we have like two side of the two two main features. One is the trading feature. For the training feature basically what we're trying to do is integrate as many perexes as possible. Whatever the user want you want to firm the point you want to do the funny way arbitrage you want to do it basic street trade join telegram channel just let us know if you like if you want us to integrate this particular pex we'll do that it's a very simple it probably take three four days for us to

do that so integrate as many perex as possible for the front end then launch the vault products so the first strategy were basically very simple spot BTC uh then short per bdc lighter the second one is going to be more interesting because we're going to dabble with a token that's a stock. So likely SpaceX or Tesla or Nvidia whichever one or maybe a combination of >> y >> again basis straight uh we hold the spot on rahu chain short the per on the lighter so those are the two per uh the VA product we're going to launch uh before the end of the year >> y >> um yeah so I think that's kind of like uh uh tlddr about what you're about to see um and join our telegram >> yeah telegram channel

>> well thanks for joining Harry >> um appreciate you being part of the show it's good to see you in the city. I'll pull this up for the >> for the uh gang here. >> Looks like old Harry may have uh brought the the the lovely ladies and gentlemen of the roll up some wine. >> Yeah, it's a white burgundy. It's a housewarming [screaming] gift. It's her first time in this office. It's a beautiful office. If you ever get come here >> Yes. I'm going to we're going to get this little open here and uh might have a little office happy hour tonight. W's in the >> um >> check this big guy out. Wow. It's a bomb. Absolute monster. Monster of a wine here, guys. Um >> look at this rare wine corp. Check that

out. Check that out. Bang. [snorts] Look at this guy. Harry, appreciate it, man. Wow. Look at this. You like it? >> It's wrapped like a Christmas gift. >> Bang. Wow. Bjoni Aligulti is a great white Burgundy. >> Wow. This thing is a tank. >> Wow. >> What are we gonna do with this, guys? What are we gonna do with this? Huh? Look at that. Thank you so much, Eric. Thank you. Beautiful. All righty, guys. We'll be back with more wine, more guests, more charts, more news, more markets. Back in just a second.

[music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat.

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We get deep. >> Yo yo yo. What's going on guys? This is Itan with the rollup. All righty, guys. How about that? Wine for the boys and the girls here of the rollup headquarters. Give it up for our lovely guest Harry. He's amazing. Great to have that. Good conversation. Been a [cheering] long time supporter, friend of those guys. So guys, we've got a institutional mega powerhouse, Anan Kumar, coming on to talk about the tokenization mega trend um and more. So this is uh this is kind of like the like the other side of the barbell from what we're talking about right guys. So like you've got this like mega trend happening tokenization

and it's very obvious. Anan is the managing director and global investment strategist and the head of US credit research and portfolio manager at benefit street partners uh Franklin Templeton's private credit platform. He joined the firm in 2015 after roles in capital markets advisory and lazed friars and leverage finance at Deutsch. Um Kumar holds an MBA from University of Chicago, an MS from Stanford and a bachelor degree from Vivada Technological University. That is three more degrees than I have. That is a good sign that this guy's going to be intelligent. But ladies and gentlemen, let's get Anan up on the show. Let's get the show on the road. Anan, welcome to the show, man.

>> Thanks. Happy to be here. Yeah, man. Um, what a time. I mean, just to set the stage, right? I mean, tokenization mega cycle. I mean, we call it a mega trend. We we call tokenization, stable coins, pers, and you can kind of squeeze vaults in there now that, you know, there's there's a lot of excitement about them. But you got these three mega trends kind of defining the what we're calling like the secular ex exports of the digital assets industry. you know, in this bare market time, we try to find things that we're actually doing well and uh to tokenization happens to be one of them.

So, I'm not I mean, I'm just curious from your perspective, um just how this whole kind of uh journey into this tokenization space has unfolded and maybe just how your perspective on this has changed as you've started to work deeper and deeper into this kind of tokenization space. I understand that you are working very closely in the private credit sector and so maybe just give us kind of like your perspective to start us off just to have some context. >> Sure. So, you know, I think tokenization is definitely the wave of the future and we're going to have many different assets that are going to get tokenized.

Um, the big unlock has come from the regulatory regime changing and becoming much friendlier. So, the trady world is now adopting tokenization. you see the the big institutions that were calling you know Bitcoin a petro and you know you know having a sort of pjorative uh connotations around anything cryptorelated are now adopting this very broadly so I think this is a secular change as you put it um and tradfi is trfy has seen that this is a trend that's coming and they're reorienting their systems to to take advantage of this and you know this there's capital to be raised in the space so whenever that happens uh everyone jumps on that Yeah, most definitely. And so when you think about the lines blurring right

between you know the traditional finance world and kind of what's happening in the onchain world um you know through your conversations with your colleagues with your uh friends with your network here has there been a serious perspective shift or or a serious understanding of the inevitability of something like tokenization of something like these worlds kind of colliding and merging? How much push back are you seeing? how much kind of anti- tokenization, anti-blockchain rhetoric still exists in your kind of inner circles?

>> So, I think look, there's always going to be, you know, five or 10% of the population who are I won't call them dinosaurs, but you know, people who just are resistant to change. Um, but the vast majority of people have realized that once the big institutions, uh, you know, you've got DTCC, you've got the regulators, you've got the JP Morgans of the world, once they've all jumped on this train, uh, there's there's a lot of momentum behind it. So there's not that much resistance and I think the best example of this was actually uh what happened um last month with JPM u you know posted QQQ as a collateral at the CME in in a tokenized form and that's just you know that's not something you would have said you know 5 years ago where you know JP Morgan was somewhat antithetical towards the whole idea of

of crypto they always like blockchain but [snorts] I think them demonstrating that this is not just a project or some research lab this is real world that's just changed the conversation and everybody realizes that this is something that's inevitable. This is coming. Um, and it wasn't just JPM, you know, uh, you had Black Rockck, Goldman, Vanguard, everybody who's involved in in this initiative. And to me, that's some of one of the most exciting applications of this. It's that collateral layer because, you know, I come from a credit world and collateral is really, you know, the heart of what we do. If something goes bad, you seize the collateral. So, seeing collateral being tokenized is is amazing. And you know the the other benefit is the world I come from. Uh we do private credit, we

do loans, we do bonds and settlement is a real issue. Now settlement has become an issue that's been solved mostly in equities. It's T plus0. In bonds it's T+1. But in loans, this is a real problem. If >> many of your listeners might not be aware of this, but when people are selling, buying and selling loans, leverage loans, the settlement process can take 15 days, which is crazy. And the way it's done is it's you pick up a phone, there's some PDF somewhere, the bank's closer chats with your trader and they figure out, you know, the settlement. That process takes 15 days.

If those loans can get tokenized, that can be atomic settlement. So to me the two things that I really focus on in you know my world are are collateral and settlement. Those are the two easiest things. There's a whole host of other applications. But if we get those two right there's such a big unlock and that's why people are excited about this even in the trafire world and a lot of the resistance has sort of gone by the wayside because they've seen the benefits this can provide. >> Yeah man. I mean the collateral thing just from like a just from our world if you will. We saw a couple popular per venues offer um using the tokenized S&P 500 as collateral for cross margin on chain right so cross margin your you

know stock holdings and you know trade crypto commodities gold etc there's just all these little interesting little nooks and crannies of financial innovation or engineering innovation happening >> when it comes to the loan side and the collateral side I think Bitcoin has probably become a collateral asset. You know, I think Ethereum has a ways to go. I think other crypto assets aren't really close to being there yet. But for, you know, a risky investor, if you want to put your Bitcoin into a collateral or into a loan and collateralize it and borrow against it, I think with some understanding of how Bitcoin cycles work and a, you know, reasonable allocation to this part of your portfolio, it's >> it's perhaps a a smart thing, you know,

to think about doing. And so, as Bitcoin becomes a preferred collateral asset, right, it's got really nice liquidity parameters. It's got a 247 market. It's got decent depth. >> Um, how do you expect this to affect and h or how do you expect to kind of see institutional borrowing and loan provisioning against a collateral asset like Bitcoin? How does that differ or how's how's that similar to, I don't know, borrowing against gold or borrowing against a house or borrowing against a loan? How do you Yeah.

>> Yeah. So I think Bitcoin is the perfect asset for u like asset back lending because a few reasons. >> One it's it's um you know it's there's a clear public ownership chain. A lot of times you know people have collateral and you they post collateral but you have to go and investigate who owns the title to that like does someone really own it before they post as collateral and you can have fraud around that. With a public blockchain you know exactly who owns the collateral right it's it's publicly visible. That's one element. Second is the obvious one is atomic settlement, right? In the traditional world, when you post an asset as collateral, you have to get a lean on it. You have to get title to it. And if there's a bankruptcy, then there's a complicated lawsuit. And if the leans

aren't perfected exactly, then you have trouble getting the asset back and seizing the asset. Right? With Bitcoin, it's you can put in a vault. It's programmatic and once an event occurs, you just transfer it instantly. So, it takes away a lot of that noise. And the third element, it's it's so easy to transfer, right? So you talked about gold. If somebody posts, you know, $500 million of gold somewhere, I have to go physically collect that gold from a vault, like good luck with that. The security alone for that, right? Bitcoin, it's it's secure. You can get it instantly. It's atomic settlement and it's publicly available. So >> if I were to design from scratch an asset that would be good for asset back lending, like collateral, I think Bitcoin or just any sort of like blockchain based uh token would be perfect. And Bitcoin is great because

there's no one who owns it. There's no sort of central governance there who so anybody can change the rules. So, I mean, it's just it's the perfect asset. >> Bullish. Yeah. I mean, I think the construct from the investor perspective is being able to be long-term bullish Bitcoin without having to sell. being able to leverage, you know, some sort of um LTV ratio and being cognizant of your risks and being able to kind of pull cash from the investment without needing to sell. That's kind of like a long-term bull thesis obviously for this model. You know, another thing that you guys did recently or from what I understand from Franklin Templeton side is this commercial paper deal that you guys executed on Salana. What what even happened there?

>> Sure. >> And and what uh like was it easy to do? Was it hard to do? Was it was there operational regulatory uh hurdles risks? What happened there and how you know how easy was it? >> Okay, so it was the first time somebody was doing something like this in the kind of vehicle we did it in. So there was a little bit of you know we needed some legal opinions. We needed you know the auditors everyone to sort of appine that this is okay to do. But once we had those opinions it was relatively easy. We just set up a wallet and then it was um and this is publicly disclosed. It was a Galaxy was a firm uh they issued commercial paper on the Salana blockchain. This was facilitated by JP Morgan. Uh we were one of the firms that participated in that and um it was

commercial paper. It was three-month paper. It got it's already been repaid so that transaction is uh done and dusted. But it was a really good way to check the rails for me as a lender. I was just underwriting Galaxy, right? You know, we know Galaxy, we we lend to them in various capacities. Um this was just another one of the instruments and you know I think commercial paper is a good place to start because it's such short duration that the risk is really not the tenor is 3 months so there's no real risk over there but then that's going to extend like you'll extend to AL you'll extend to unit financing and you know there'll be an extension of that over time but that was a perfect test case uh it was like a three-month instrument we tested on you know Salana's uh rails and

JP Morgan facilitated it so once we got the the legal and regulatory opinions it was very easy >> and and what is the value of doing that versus like the the other way to do it or like the normal way to do it? >> Well, the the the biggest value is the the cash and sort of security move at the same time, right? You you settle instantly. So, there's no big process, you know, it's just everything just moves atomically. That's great, right? >> Um and you can, you know, you can you can be very creative with this. It's, you know, as you know, blockchain is programmable money, so you can put all sorts of controls and rules around it.

Um so to me like the first two things I mentioned like the boring parts of the finance plumbing which is you know collateral and settlement those were like the the good ways uh the good benefits of doing that deal on the Salana blockchain and by the way we could run on any other blockchain uh it's not particular Salana but Salana was was a great blockchain to do that on >> yeah and then an kind of more into your wheelhouse here specifically around the private credit side what have you guys been doing on that front um bringing that onchain And what does that even Yeah. What does that look like?

>> Sure. So I think the the thing that people focus most on is uh the tokenization of funds, right? So you have these private credit funds that have been tokenized. So u traditionally you go to your broker and you would put a request in for the fund. Now that same fund can be onchain, right? >> That's that's great. Uh the problem with that has been adoption because the challenge is challenge is distribution, right? You can tokenize a fund very easily, a private credit fund very easily, but getting the distribution, finding people who have the wallets and the infrastructure to invest in it, that's been um that's been a sort of the gating item. So, we've seen firms that have tokenized um their funds, but this the the dollars raised there haven't

been that large. We're talking about, you know, sub a billion dollars. On the other hand, um if it's a money market fund, those have been tokenized and Franklin Templeton has one called Benji. We've raised billions over there. So that's been a little bit easier, but on the private credit side, the the adoption has been a little slower because of that distribution uh bottleneck. But >> that's that's sort of the headline. >> The thing I'm most excited about when it comes to private credit is >> I'll take a step back and explain. So with private credit, there's two two problems. One, there's no liquidity, right? The these loans don't trade.

>> Um and two, there's a constraint on who can trade the loans. So the issuer of sorry the borrower the person who borrows the money they actually have their owner the private equity firm typically they have a say on who can trade the debt. So they can say you know what we don't want this holder to buy our loan and they actually have a say in this. So these are the two problems. Now tokenization can solve both those problems. One, you can have a situation where you have a permissionless token. And I know that's that's a bit of a leap of faith because people won't really like that, particularly the banks. But if you can tokenize a private credit loan, then anybody can own it, right?

You you you're still the the lender of record, but you can like farm out little pieces to anyone. So then that question of the private equity firm saying who can own their loan or not, that goes away. That's one big problem solved. The second problem is liquidity. These loans do not trade, right? No. >> And you may have read the headlines about uh a lot of private credit funds having redemption requests and they need to sell assets to meet those redemption requests, but there's no secondary market. If you create a token, maybe create a digital twin of the loan and you represent an ownership interest in the loan. It's a small piece. It's not the entire loan. You can create a liquid market around this. So, you can unlock two issues with private credit. Now there are firms that have tried to do

this and I know there's headlines about some firms that have had some success. It's still very nent but if we as an industry can solve this problem I think that's going to be a huge unlock. >> So okay so I think it's really cool for example that we are getting compute markets and compute derivatives on chain on pers platforms. is basically like what one of the things that blockchain is amazing for is that you can permissionlessly create markets based solely on supply and demand by a buyer and seller on purply purely 247 perpetual future contracts.

Similarly in this regard what what another kind of like u kind of subsidiary or secondary effect is that you can create uh secondary markets for uh a lot of like basically non-lquid or illquid assets offchain. And so you're basically saying that we can perhaps solve some of the ill liquidity crunch issues through that the private credit industry is facing uh by potentially tokenizing some of these loans or or you know some of these books. Two questions.

>> First, how is this not just like making normal people or less educated folks or folks who are just kind of interested? How is this not making just people exit liquidity to the problem of these investors who are in these instruments in the first place? And then second, doesn't making something that is only marked to market once a year, once every six months, >> doesn't make that or yeah, once quarter, doesn't making that liquid >> kind of reduce the illquidity premium attached to that asset? Like it's kind of a facade in a sense that it's like, oh, it's illquid. This is the price.

It's it's at 100. It's at 100. Well, you know, maybe it's not. So, doesn't that kind of place more potential risk on the industry itself to actually have kind of the the curtains opened up as to like the actual liquidity of the asset and thus kind of like lower the ill liquidity premium, which I know sounds backwards because typically there's like a liquidity premium, but in this case, it seems like the the lack of marking these private credit instruments to market allows for them to kind of sustain a higher or a more steady, let's say nominal value than if they were marked to market like every block, every second. So, you know, how are we not just creating exit

liquidity here? And how do we kind of navigate the liquidity versus illquidity dynamic? >> Yes, that that's that's actually a really insightful question. Um, I'm almost confused. Are you a trady guy? Because that's the kind of thing that the trady guys would ask about college. >> So, so you you're right. there is an illquidity premium with private credit because there is no exit liquidity. Lenders will charge an extra 150 basis points or 200 basis points to make that loan saying look I'm going to be stuck in this instrument where I have no exit. So I'm going to charge you a premium to make that loan to you. Now if we do enter a world in which there is secondary market liquidity in the space that premium will collapse. So borrowing will get cheaper for people in the

market and there'll be a convergence in private and public credit. There's still some differences between those two worlds. It's not just simply well one trades, one doesn't. There's there's other elements to it. But particularly the the investor base, but that il premium should come down. And then it also to your point you mentioned it increases the transparency in the asset class because right now you have a situation where that same private credit loan can be held by like three people right these loans are typically held by like three to five people. It's very thin liquidity and everyone marks it once a quarter using a third party firm.

But that mark can be different across different um different lenders. So the same loan can be held you know three or four points differently in a different person's book. If you have a liquid solution where there's an observable price at which transactions have occurred all of a sudden that dispersion is collapsed. So the illquidity premium collapses but also the dispersion in marks collapses. So I think it solves you know multiple problems but you know there is there is push back against this. So it's not something that's going to happen overnight. Um I do think there will be a movement towards it over time because it's it's it's such an obvious um solution but you need to get all the constituencies on board because you know some people you know earn money by

keeping things illquid. >> Uh but um I I think that's it's it's a matter of time before that convergence happens. >> Yeah. I mean we're not uh you know disrupting the financial industry wasn't going to be a a five-year process with no fight. I'll tell you that. It's more like a multi-deade process. It's kind of this weird like um you know it's coming but you push back in the sense because yeah your margins are getting squeezed. >> But it must be interesting to be like on you know in in your shoes you know speaking about this publicly uh when you know the the counterparty to your loans or the uh firms you guys will work with.

And you know >> you don't want to be the you know don't shoot the messenger right and it's kind of like the message is already out there guys. So the leaders are clearly getting ahead of it and realizing how to build a better product stack for their you know investors utilizing the technology and then figuring out ways to then monetize in this kind of future product stack rather than trying to resist the inevitable is kind of what what it seems like. Yeah, you can't really hold back the tide. And you know, even the big firms who were initially resistant, you know, I mentioned them, they're at the forefront. Like, you know, when you thought about JP Morgan, everybody used to talk about the comments that Jamie Diamond made about Bitcoin, but they've been at the forefront of being innovators in the space now. They they

are some of the most sophisticated, you know, uh, players in the space and they are the ones we did the Galaxy transaction with. So, I think I think people get it. um it it's inevitable and even the big firms they're becoming very innovative about this. Um you know you can resist it or you can be the first mover in the space and take advantage of taking market share. So I think a lot of the firms have who realize this is coming are say look let's not fight it if you can't beat him join him and they're making you know all kinds of innovations in the space. Yeah, I love it. Anon, thanks for your time, man. I know we're a bit past, but appreciate the conversation. Um, and love the work that you guys are doing and the whole world's coming on chain, one industry,

one sector, one messenger at a time. So, appreciate you, man. >> Absolutely. Uh, love you being with you. So, um, hope hopefully we can have many more discussions like this when the world decides to tokenize everything. So, >> that's right. Tokenize it all. Thanks. >> Thank you. >> Cheers, buddy. All righty, guys. The big boys are coming. And I'll tell you what, they're coming and they're they're they're they're going to buy your bags, too, after they after they bring all their infrastructure on chain. They're they're they're going to purchase your favorite tokens. If you're in the right ones, if you're in the store of value assets and the revenue producing onchain businesses, they're not going to buy your memes, freedom guy. They're not going to buy your memes. Sorry to break it to you, buddy. Um guys, what a show.

What a show. Um what a show. What a show. What a show. It's okay, Miss Gun. Nobody's perfect. I came from OG stratifi fintech. It's okay. No one's perfect. Yo, that is funny, man. This guy's a clown. Um, guys, what a show. I don't have much else for you. Um, actually, I do. I think, um, we have something from the SEC that came out. Um, and I'm kind of confused why, uh, we're not ripping, but I guess we're just still in the bare market.

No, no surprise there. All right, here we go. Here we go. Here we go. Pull it up. Breaking news. Breaking news. Breaking news. Breaking news. Hit that damn stinger. The breaking news is here. [music] will create a clear and fitfor-purpose framework for certain investment contracts involving crypto assets.

Details include the March 2026 interpretation clarifying how federal securities laws apply to certain crypto assets. Bullish. The rules will address long-standing barriers to capital formation and innovation within domest domestic crypto asset markets. Bullish. The proposed rules include two exemptions from the registration requirements of securities act of 193 1933 specifically tailored to certain investment contracts involving crypto assets. Get those old rules out of here. Bullish. The proposed rules also include a conditional safe harbor from the term investment conf investment contract in the definitions of security in the Securities Act 1933 and Securities Exchange Act 1934. Get

those old rules the hell out of here. Framework for broader crypto adoption is finally rolling out. Ladies and gentlemen, what do the charts say? Higher. The charts are telling you guys to bid. They're telling you guys to bid. I mean, they're telling you that this market wants up. I mean, I don't know if there's any way any other way around it. That is what they're telling you. They're telling you this market wants higher. Look at this, Johnny. Look at this, Johnny. Nice little rally here. We got a ways to go. We got a ways to go.

We got a ways to go. But boy oh boy, we're going sideways, guys. We're going sideways. We're not going down anymore. We've been going sideways for damn two and a half months, bro. We've been in a range for two and a half months that has literally been like a 15% range for two and a half months. Oh my god. You know what the problem is? 81 days.

You know what the problem is? is that this is giving 2017 vibes or 2018 vibes. Let's go way back. You guys are not gonna want to see this. This is giving This is giving 2018 vibes. Rangebound 105 days in like a 15% range. You want to start here 77 days, 15% range followed by a 49% nuke.

That'll that'll tingle the coahonus. So that's like the only comparison that you don't really want to see, but you can't unsee these things. And so just something to note. It's interesting. We're at 84 days in the 15% range. You know, could go a little longer and then maybe you see that final move, but maybe you don't. I don't think it'll be 50%. That's for sure. More clarity act without even the clarity act. Exactly, man. Exactly. New rules bullish. LFG S delivers L to Pocahontas. Yes, bro. I just opened the

short now. I don't know if you should do that, man. I do not advise shorting anything down here. As you guys know, we are accumulating bags of what we believe in long-term right here in these levels and we want to see these things rip higher. So, don't have much for you guys on the markets as we kind of close out here. Great show. Let's get some W's in the chat. Let's get some vibes up. What are you guys longing? What are you guys shorting? What are you guys going doing into tomorrow? Beautiful day in New York City. Lovely day. Um, thank you for the show. Thank you for guys for being a part of the show. Thank you for being here. Thanks for supporting our channel.

A like, a subscribe, notifications on goes a long way. Smash that like button right now if you haven't today. W's in the chat. What a show. Rain or shine. The crypto adoption cycle is rapidly increasing regulatory wise, institutional adoption wise. Retail investment wise, onchain trading wise, the infrastructure is maturing. There is an importance of having these physical spaces for collaboration. That's why we're here in the nest in the Empire State Building in the capital of the world, the financial capital of the world, the most iconic building in the city of New York. W's in the chat.

NOCSM, great to see you, man. Great to see you. Freedom guy, Little Miss Gun, Mumu Evans, can't wait to see you guys tomorrow. chat more. Let us know in the comments any other thoughts, questions, takes. That token buybacks video is on our channel live now. You'll see it there. And we got more bangers coming. We got Mert and we got a Zcash dev tomorrow. We got a banger show tomorrow. We got a great show to end the week. I'm feeling good. Market's feeling good. Bitcoin looks like it wants higher. Bitcoin is demanding higher. Bitcoin is not stopping until we go higher. I think it's all but written in the stars at this point. Let's get above 65. Let's get above 67 and let's pop this thing up

to 80s. What do you guys say? Huh? What do you guys say? Huh? You know where to find us tomorrow? Same place, same time. Live from the financial capital of the world. Deb's in the chat. Let's give our team a round of applause. I'm on production side. Crushing it as always. We'll [music] see you guys tomorrow. >> [music] >> Everything. [music] [music] [music]

Oh, [music] hey. [music] [music] >> [music] [music]