Liminal Village

Transcript

Tech team, is the recording happening? Is it live? Okay, great. So, it is recording. Welcome to week two of the valley. Um we may see that there are very few people around right now because a lot of people are actually arriving in the afternoon today. Ah so we are close to 48 people in total. You have something to say. >> Some are arriving in the afternoon but also not all of you may know that we have two villas where people are staying. They're in that direction and uh people in the villas typically come

later. I have a feeling they have breakfast there and so there are quite some people I'd say more than 12 people staying not at this place but outside. >> Good to know. >> But we are in total 48 people this week which is not bad. >> 50 students signed up. >> Wow. Okay. We have 50 people this week, which is even better. Um, and we will hope to see the energy rise up with the new people that come in slowly as the day progresses. So, welcome. And, uh, for people that have been very patient with us the last week and helping us

figure out how the first week would work and the future weeks would work, my deepest deepest gratitude. A few we would start with a few new announcements for the week. Number one, we have shifting roles each week. So last week I introduced my colleague cause as the week lead for that week and this week it's me. Uh but I do want to say that there are others in the team as well that you can reach out for support and it's Felix for sure. I mean you all know Felix.

>> Hi Felix. There's Leo who's right there. You want to say something? >> Yeah. >> Leo can be your friend. Uh there's Da. You want to say a few words? talk to me if you want to talk.

>> We also have cos but cos has requested a little break this week to deal with his own stuff. So we are going to give him a break for the week. We have two informal people that have stepped in to support us and I'm very grateful to them. First one is Zavier. He's been really working very hard to bring clarity and I do respect it and I do want to acknowledge it in front of everybody. Thank you. Despite the differences, I am extremely grateful of the energy that you're bringing. Do you want to say a few words?

Okay. And the second person is Daniel Nebbe. We have three Daniels and next week we are going to have four Daniels. So I'm going to call you German Daniel, Australian Daniel. I don't know the Austrian Daniel. >> Danny. >> Danny. Okay. Danny is the care steward of the week. Which means if there is a situation that any of you are feeling unsafe, not good, are feeling a bit low and would require emotional support or would like to report something but are somehow feeling uncomfortable coming to any of the organizers, please reach out to Danny. Um Danny will take necessary steps and inform us if there is

something that needs to be done, if an action needs to be taken. We all know each other but we also are kind of new to each other. So such situations might arise. So feel free to raise your concerns if you have any. You can of course come to the organizers directly but you can also reach out to Denny. Perfect. A few other announcements that I had written that I need to make before we begin which will be quick. We still need volunteers for the day. We need people to help with after lunch cleaning. We need people for dinner prep. We need after dinner prep. And the same thing for the next few days. Please

take a moment to write your name on the table. We really, really need help. Uh Stefan might be coordinating that this week on our end to help us find volunteers. Thank you for being the bad cop. And Jesse actually mentioned that he would like to support as well. So you can have a buddy in your bad cop business. He's not here right now, but he did mention to me um check-in every day is going to start at 9:30 a.m. If there is anybody in the group that feels like they would

like to facilitate the check-in, you don't have to, but if you feel like you would like to, you're you're welcome to come and reach out to us and we will make sure that you have a chance to facilitate it. At 10:00 a.m. every day we are going to have the open space which is facilitated by Zavier and we are going to sort of like schedule sessions for the afternoon like what we can do together and all of the different tracks. So that's going to happen. Um we also want to welcome the artisans this week. Lon our team member who just arrived. She's also working with artisan for a long time now. She just arrived yesterday and thank you very much. uh you will see a lot of new creative

energy trickle into the room this week and that's all thanks to the hard work that she and for put in into curating this. So thank you and the final announcement is regarding the harvest circle. So, normally we close the day also with a check out which we call the harvest circle. And today we are going to do that at 5:30 p.m. instead of 6:30 p.m. So, we are going to end our day a little bit early because everybody said in their check-in that we are feeling a bit tired and cloudy and windy so we can have some more time to rest, you know, and relax and we don't feel rushed. So, we will start our harvest circle at 5:30 p.m.

probably outside by the fire again. That would be cool. Um, and then we ended there. Yes, >> it's 4:30 to 5:30. 5:30 to 6:30 is the harvest. After 6:30, we are free to just go into the evening and yeah, just take a bit of rest. Um, with that, I want to invite today's speaker, which is Roberto. Uh, it was supposed to be Michelle Bowens. I think people were expecting to listen to Michelle Bowens. But Michelle Bowens is going to speak on >> the third. So we're going to have two keynotes now on the third and because we were missing somebody who could step in

today, we are very grateful for Roberto who said like of course I can do it. I have so much to talk to people and uh he has been a lot of people have actually come up to me and told me that I need to talk to you about the tech that you're building for organizing hubs. So I'm very very curious. I may be fluttering around the house doing other stuff but there's everywhere streaming. So I'm going to be actually really listening to this keynote and I'm very excited that you stepped in. So thank you >> [applause] >> Now, thank you for uh inviting me to actually have a podium for uh yeah, for

some time. So, now you have to you get to sit here and listen to me for about Is this on? Well, a bit closer. All right. Now, you have to sit here and listen to me for about an hour. So, I got you. Um yeah where is it? Thank you. So um I did assemble some slides together for many many presentation that I did over the years. We're doing this for yeah now 10 years and um I picked one that is more kind of community oriented. So it's a bit old but um but I changed the title because I gave it an update and the update and the

title is a social economic technoal stack for regenerative common. So this is like a full stack right and um the search for the hidden HDMI. So I'll start with the sentence uh that comes from Bill Morrison, the co-founder of permaculture. Um if we don't have the fundamental freedom to choose which economic system wait I'll just turn this on.

>> Yeah. >> Right. So you can also read it. If we don't have the fundamental freedom to choose which economic system we want to participate in and the direct voice in governing them, then we don't have freedom at all. So it's funny economic system. What does economy means? Actually economy if you look at the root of the word the Greek uh it actually means household management. So how do we manage our our household our common household our planet earth? And I think now we have this we are in this situation in which we're feeling that we're kind of

managing it this way and that we really going to do something [music] about this because this doesn't look like a very good management. It looks like we have been having a party for a while and nobody is thinking about how to clean up yet. Uh but here I like this picture because there's some kind of like old symbols in the rock. Something that hey it wasn't all the time like this. We can actually look back in the past and find ways in which we could actually be together in a different we were different. We were actually part of nature. And then here we are at the crossroad. We can choose, right? Do we going to go this way or this way? And this way looks this kind of like solar punk uh future with uh communities and

you know and it's always sunset and and uh yes there are That's not >> No, no, exactly. That's not a party. No, it's you know when when you the party's finished and and you look back at your room >> it looks [laughter] Yeah. So, right. So, we want to go this way looking at the past. But of course, we're not in the past. We don't have to go back. I mean if we do this we'll end up in the past anyway. Uh but now we actually want to go to the future like that. And so the question is like when

we look at this future what is the role of the technologies what what is actually where is it because I see some community here having dinner some farming happening over there that's all very good but what happened to technology so this is the question that that the um we're trying to answer the fact is I think that the actual thing is that communities real communities the one that functions don't need any technology so Please rem always remember that we're not depending on the system that we create. We need to be dependent on each other.

So what happens is this kind of solar punk dreams of having a regenerative uh place. It's pretty much like this. It's yeah it can all function. We are community but then we are isolated. We are in an island and and so actually it looks more like this right. Yeah we're doing it right but the rest of the world is not really. So I think that the role of technology is about like can we connect these places, interconnect these places into a new social economic system where we actually doing the right thing and we're doing communities and we're doing uh and we're doing the permaculture and we having all this solar power unicorns going around and and

we're interconnected and we're using that connection interconnection to be the change as we're seeing that people are actually having a good time. Well, the the rest of the parties needs to clean up. Then they're going to look for okay what what is the network that is actually doing it right and they're going to join it. So that's how we transmute the system. We're not fighting it. We we are we can actually see what's good and make that bigger. Right? This is appreciative inquiry.

So the beautiful thing is that people have been trying to do this for a long time. There is a ma critical mass happening. There are so many platform, so many networks, so many locations and not only physical things that are all mapped out. There are also a lot of initiatives and they don't even know each other. They're all trying to make the world a better place. What's really missing is to actually weave them, right? We need to bring them together and put them on a map and knowing we exist is not weaving.

It's information. It's useful but that's not a new social economic system. This is just like yeah I'm aware. Aware awareness is the first step. We will actually need this a system that is going to track not only the form of capital. The only language we're using right now at the global level is beautiful. We have a common language money. But um and a common god even, right? But there are many other forms of capital that are actually at play at all time. They are nothing to do with money and and they're there and we're not tracking them and we're not sharing them. We don't know how something we share. But we need to bring awareness also to this

and um and all of this can only start with a community that practice that. So we are we're practicing. So we have a process we need the process of communification right we need to unify the communities but case communities is actually uh you know it represent if you look at the par maslo pyramid there is like the basic need but community gives you can give you everything else. So ultimately we need money for covering the basic need everything else we just need each other and but if that is that would be the case why is it that nobody lives in community right why it's very difficult to live in community and I'll

let's go to the process of communification so and I can tell you why then the problem where the problem happens so let's start with a community of one you mean community of one well community of cells, right? And so we have we can call this community Roberto or you can call me Roberto. You can call me also other names but then I won't answer. Um when we have when we find out that the world actually has another community which is you, we can oh that's cool, that's interesting.

So we start to relate. We know we we we come into the awareness and then we realize that oh wow we actually have something in common and what is it? Maybe we have some objectives, some values, something that we need to do, some some ambitions, some whatever it is. There is something in common. Maybe we're just sharing the space as and and we can use the commonality really commons is pun intended to actually create a bigger community, a community that include me and you.

The problem with community is that it requires communication. Yeah. So when you are who knows communities of two, how many communities of two exist? Well, every relation is a community of two and relation based in communication. When you enter a community of more than two people, what you're doing is like a peer-to-peer community where you need to peer-to-peer communicate with each other. And that's where the problem start because you see everybody has a different perception of the world.

Everybody has a different story of the world and and when we try to share the story there is only few things that actually are are coming in this kind of like collective agreement. I say something, you understand exactly the opposite. How is that even possible, right? Yes, that's what I said, but that's not what I meant, right? And so we have this kind of like biblical issue of like, okay, we're trying to do something great together, but actually we just can't communicate, so the project will fail. Right now, it turns out that we have created a tool which is actually the opposite of us, is very good at communication.

And these are computers. They can communicate across the distance. You know, we can have so much data information available. And so, can we use this tool we created to actually help us uh communicate better so we can achieve our shared objectives? In a way, I can see like um technology as a form of mediated telepathy, right? We are using these devices and now I know right when we're using telegram. Oh, I I know what a person on the other side of the world is uh is feeling or experiencing and I need to do something about it. So, in a way, there's this kind of double-edged sword, right? The problem with telepathy is like then

there's too much noise and then you get crazy right? So, how do you fine-tune it? But basically we can use the technology that we created as an information system for the planet where all information is stored and then we can home down to the information do we actually need? Imagine it like what is the need? Do you know what is the need in in California in specific place where your skills are needed? Do you even know what your neighbor needs?

We don't have we have this technology. We can watch videos of cats. We can do beautiful things. Uh we can we are communicating and everything but we don't know what our neighbor needs. So maybe we can use this technology to do what? So we created during the years now we created this association which is called regenerativa and it's a network of interdependent individuals communities and project focusing on integral regeneration. So regeneration of the self of the community of the environment of our institution integral regeneration.

So if you're doing any of that then you're welcome to become part of the uh network and now we are actually focusing on the bio region because this is the smallest unit of uh of action and we're focusing on the Toronto Valley but we're developing basically technologies that can be adopted any in any valley. So if he works for a valley, he can work for every valley including the valley of the commons. And uh we started about 8 years ago the liinal village which is basically a manifestation of uh where people can actually come and help develop this this technologies experiences how this technology can be used so that it

doesn't actually bother us but is actually something that sustain and supports us and we only pick it up when we need it not when everything works. So a technology that does not enslave us but a technology that liberates us to actually be humans. So we don't have to have like two hours meeting in the morning coordinating. And we did this through this temporary communities. So um we are u using illumination protocol. So for coming from new moon to new moon people stay about a month they arrive they see who's there they discover. So almost like right uh a pop-up community and you have this path of like who's here let's do something together. Okay, that that was

cool. A lot of stuff happened. Then um let's now home down into what it is the output that we can create and how can we integrate everything that has happened so we can start a new cycle. And so as you see here the community is very diverse. There is all kind of different people. It's not like a tech community. It's not Yeah, so Thomas is there. This was the first event actually and um and also so we actually asked the people to come and do something for themselves while they're there. So we say we can't tell you what to do but you got to do something for yourself. You got to do something for the place and do something for the planet beyond yourself. That's a

very difficult ask because a lot of people arrive and they just focus on one of these aspect and then you need to say am I balanced and we can't tell you you're not balanced. We can say, "Hey, do you want to come and build something today?" Right? So you get out of your screen and we've been using open space technology which is beautiful because basically you allow everybody to just kind of fauculate around the things that that uh you're interested in and so people are doing workshops, people are building stuff, people coding, people people planting and of course when you do that we have the communication what is happening. So we did start like with a classical amazing technology that is very

widespread which is a whiteboard and you just stick like a sticker in there and you say okay this is what happens now and [music] you know it turns out though that it's not really it it's it works it can work at a specific level and obviously you need to go there and keep it update and you go there and look at it and if you're away you don't really know what is actually happening. happening at a specific location, what time if something has changed, right? So, you don't have a way to just kind of say telepathically go there and say, "All right, the the workshop is moved to later."

In a way, you know, when you're leaving a symbol or like a communication into your environment, you're actually uh doing some sort of stigma using the environment as a communication tool like what ants do by living ferommones, right? So, can we do the same on a digital environment? And um and so beautiful the children energy now. Um so why not use a I don't know mirror. So this is a digital whiteboard that you can still go and consult with [music] with on your on your telephone. Well, it doesn't work because of course you have

to go there and then you have to zoom in in the right right place. So it's really in theory good in practice horrible. So actually we thought like oh but people are still on their phone they're using we're using telegram as a communication channel to update people uh telepathically. So why don't we build something right where they are? And so we are we started building this uh this bot that uh allows people to to gives it gives the every community you drop it into your telegram or WhatsApp or discord. Basically this thing is not uh opinionated in where it is and I'm going to show it to you.

And so I can just press the slash command. I don't know if you can see that. So in any community that you drop this bot, we're going to give you power tools for your community. Task management, decision making, shopping list, uh offers and and needs, um you name it. Anything that the co our mutter credit system everything that the community will need during the year we basically added it as out of request from the community and we are now creating a small operating system for the community right but this operating system is interesting not for the community itself but it's interesting because it's

actually in relation to other community so the stuff that happens in our community now can relate to other and we can create something that we can call like a composable communities. So it's this community, this hub and maybe the next the the houses over there. They have different tasks. There are different cleaning schedule and yet they relate to each other. So we can actually come together and share this information and share who's actually doing the shifts because maybe I didn't do a shift here but I do a shift there. And that actually creates like this kind of visibility that is really key for for actually establishing the trust maybe. How's your energy? Um are you

still with me? >> Huh? >> Oh yeah. Well, actually, since I'm out of the maximum, maybe we can actually have um before I go back. We have until 12:30. Okay. So, so I think I'm going fast enough. I can slow down.

>> That's um Okay. So, let's actually see. Write telegram. [music] Interesting. Okay. I'm going to leave it this. So, I'm going to write a task for instance. And this uh we need to clean up Actually, you know what? I'll do it in our comments. Our cool common. It was something we started a few days ago. And you could see here some some use of it.

So, somebody took a picture. You can see it. No. No. Somebody took a picture and said task make order on the commons table. So that you get this kind of message in telegram and you can click like right I would do it and so it gets updated with my name in it. So you know somebody's going to take care of that.

But I can also complete it. I can schedule it. I can appreciate it. And if I do appreciate it actually something interesting happening. I appreciate it but I'm not participating. Why is that? Because the appreciation is sent for something that somebody else does because it's is a signal to say this is an important task. This is something I would like to make it happen. And you can't I mean you should always appreciate yourself but we don't need to tell the system that that's the case. We always assume that that's the case.

>> I appreciate so to task uh focus the projector. >> Yes. So what then happens when we complete this task is that um there is area accounting happening which says Felix did this action and Jeff appreciated that right so we we record that information and we don't have to do all kind of weird things it just happens all behind the scenes are you good >> I think there is some no there's Oh >> What's the combination for zooming in?

>> Well, what I'm going to do is switch to a bright interface. So, it's going to be better now because I'm going to get out of Telegram, which is pretty dark in here. And um but here I I just want to show you somebody said spend €100. So this goes into like a mutual credit. You can select the participant. Actually let's leave it together. Let's actually say here this is like a nice this is the biggest use feature. I just say I just realized I'm at the toilet paper. Realize the toilet paper is over. So I go to open the closet. I realize it's empty. So I just go on my phone and say buy toilet paper. that gets added to the list of every other sensing that the other people have done by some then somebody writes a task and say go to the

store. I select myself to go to the store. I arrive at the store with other three people and I just type shopping. With shopping the list of the things that have been said who knows where is now all there and it's all available to us in each other's hand. So in the moment that I am I'm found the fruit I go there I click it and everybody see the fruit is is taken. So, we're like this kind of organisms swarming the the store and when we're done, we meet at the cashier and then of course the classical situation is uh yeah the okay okay I got the credit card I swipe

[music] again I'm the one paying that's fine because I can just immediately say I take a picture of the of the bill and I say spend €300 for community shopping and I divide that with the whole community. So that goes into my mutual credit system which is also combined with the fact that yesterday I went have a beer with Brian and he paid right. So so then because he paid my beer he doesn't have to return the money that I did for the shopping without having to having to discuss this thing. It's just like a liberation really. And this is what technology can do for us. It can help us be human by just a simple interaction that we need we need to and the interaction is that not like we're

looking at Excel sheet where we need to file all the bills and understand what it was. It's happening at the moment. Anyway, we've been doing this for a while and um so there's the library of things. There is, you know, sharing, you know, I take a picture of the book, then the system tells me, okay, this is your library. It could be a book, it could be a tool, and now this is what we have as a resources. Then I can book them. It could be the rooms. So there's if anything there are too many features is overwhelming for the first user.

So what we did realizing that we started to say right let's restart this from scratch. What do people are used to and so what we took is also took that signal out of the um of the telegram which is also a difficult interface you need to get used to it. Um and we okay and we basically created what the people are used to which is potentially that kind of board with postits right so here is the task that you need to do this is something that is happening at limino village we have other hubs so they will have different task

You can see it as a whole as a list, right? You can participate on this. So all of this is still working to telegram or directly through the web app. So you don't have to be in the web in telegram if you don't want to, right? You can also just speak what it is like, oh, we need to go to the store and the louder is going to go. So we don't even have to type. We try to lower the barrier as much as possible so you can just be humans and we basically place one thing like this in every hub. There's like a screen, an interactive screen that you can go there and check. But you know, but we already have a screen in your pocket. So when the morning you wake up and uh and you don't know what's happening, you don't even have to go to

check in. You get this interface on your phone because of course we're not there fiddling. And look at that. I can in the morning wake up. I don't know who decided and who sensed and you know, hey, the stair broke or the light needs to be replaced and I go like, all right, I can do this. No, I don't feel like doing this. Uh, no way. Uh, okay. So, I can actually join. It's join is a soft signal. It's when you complete that actually you're going to say, "Okay, actually these people did it." Or I could say like, "Oh, yeah. I really like if somebody right somebody fixed the bathroom, right? So I can just keep doing this until the tasks are over and then I look

at my personal and I can say like okay this is the stuff I committed to. Now this happened for one hub and could happen for the other hub. So these are two separate operating systems in a way. What is actually nice if we are getting into a federation so I'm not only looking at the task that needs to happen here but I can look at the task that happens inside my by region inside different housing right so we we can actually so I created also comments

hubs.net network and we just made the task. Now, if you go on the comments and you write something, it's going to show up here in real time. Very important. All of this information is stored on a CRDT graph. So, it's peer-to-peer. There's no database. It's just every single instance of this dashboard is a node in that database. So, this is like completely peer-to-peer technology. It wasn't easy. And now we're actually doing a hardcore swap to Noster so that we can be compatible with other other things that is actually happening here. So we can replace our decentralized layer as long as we have a shared language in which we

can communicate from. Anyway, so here now um we say right this is let's let's actually make one let's make a task. >> [sighs] >> Somebody as it was a sensor.

>> It has your name on it. [laughter] Right. So there is also there's also this functionality here. You see there's extra functionality you can stop. [laughter] Thank you. I didn't talk about that because um because actually yeah this is like there is ethics embedded into it. Everybody can submit a task. Everybody's a sensor within our collective. Everybody can participate. If you get more people activated then that's probably it's a good thing. These are the people that are going to do it anyway. So we don't have to sit down and talk about it. what was going to do what you can do it very easily appreciation but say somebody says oh we're going to

build the treehouse somebody says stop what voodoo are you going to use oh the one by the shed say no that is for something else I say okay then we're going to buy something so you do governance as you go when you do task management so if nobody says anything then you're allowed easy um but I won't stop >> [laughter] >> And so here it is. And then we say, right, but this could be also like workshop. We somebody kiss Roberto.

Okay, I can just say I'd like that. So I'm just going to go like, oh, let's schedule it for 100 p.m., right? So just >> you schedule it >> and I can move it, >> right? We we don't need to have this. We are in a trust environment. And we are permissionless. You can just come and change my thing because like and if you if you say, "Hey, why did you change my my thing?" Right? We need to relate to each other. This is only supporting the communication. >> Wait, I can change yours. >> Yeah.

>> Because we're in a trust environment if and if somebody if it's like, "Oh, >> can I can I write on this wall? >> I mean, in theory, I can. Am I going to do it? Stop. >> Stop. [laughter] We're gonna We're gonna the health of the community. The Holland is not something that is a thousand people. The Holland is probably about 5 10 12 people. Is is a small >> Do you know what? >> Yeah. But we need to educate each other. [laughter] >> Oh, maybe not.

So, what's happening here? This is a is a hole, right? is is a is a a node is an operating system and it gives you all these tools for a specific place that's a whole common hub is a whole I'm a whole but I'm also part of the common hub so I'm a whole and a part and common hub could be part of the commons of the of the hubs network so I am a whole and a part so a hollow is a whole part and that's how we call the technology And um when we're federating, let's go back to the presentation, we can create this composable community.

So what does it mean? That that process that we did before with the MI and the U, we can actually run it at different scales at different places all the way to the fractal creating bigger and bigger organization in which the single unit is a trust unit. So you build bigger and bigger network trust by combining multiple places of um multiple bubbles of trust and if some bubbles start to act out then you cut the relation. So you need to be able to come together and to fork and so actually the meme is we can fork but we can also spoon. Nobody's forking on working on the spoon and spooning

What does puning mean? Because I mean, will it merge? [laughter] It means that somehow we're lying, but we preserve our identity. >> What time is that? >> What time is spooning? >> The spooning session. [laughter] Well, actually this is really the point that we need to do here. We are common. So, and what how that we how do we form a common? We bring our spoon and we spoon it together into stack of spoons and then we call this our commons. And if something doesn't work, you always have the potential to fork or spork, right? Because sporking sporking part. So

once you do start a common and then some people realize that you are and you start to relate the say can I also join why because you got resources and you got resources you bring them together let's actually see that these are holograms. So these are tasks but these are holograms. this is my own holland and I as I select myself to say oh I'll do that on this hollon and I'll do that on the other holl I'm going to get mad like I'm going to get crazy but by doing that action I'm federating with that holl and the holl is going to send an hologram to

me and the hologram is basically saying hey there's something happening somewhere else that you said you would do so it's not the actual task is is a it's a shadow copy of the task and you have centralized into your own personal column. Everything is federation and and the rest is communication across this federation. So you can pass this along or you you can automatically publish it. Now I'm going to so library of things lists shopping list roles in the community shifts in the community status within the community.

What is status mean? We're doing actions together. We're actually together we decide and we agree that planting a tree is an economic valuable action. That's the choice. We choose our value. We choose what economic action means. Is cleaning an economic action? Is is uh cooking an economic action? Is child care an economic action? Right. >> If I do something else. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. You can create task and add the people. What what is the only way that this technology actually functions is when you're embedded into your community as a ritual. So in the morning you have the ritual of swiping in the right and we can do it together. We say we swiping party but uh but it's a moment right it's like okay what there is to do today you know you wake up you have your coffee everybody goes like okay and then you show it this is what this is what's happening today. Um the other way is not the other way the the opposite side of this is a night you have a moment in which you showcase what has actually happened right it's like

hey I did that and you did that and and you celebrate it so it's a celebration moment it's very important because then you can also bring visibility to what has actually happened rather than the intention right Yes. So I just wonder what's like you know

the background moral kind of >> yeah thank you thank you for the question is yeah it's very important. So I'm going to show you when you actually So by default you only get task management. In our situation the community is not always perfect. Actually the community is continuously invaded by new people that show up and um and actually don't know how does this work here? how do I contribute? So in a way I feel the technology is like you know if if you go around and you hit the foot and then it's hurting then you use technology

that are your clutches and then you use the clutches until you need it until you can walk and then you drop them right so there is like really um technology I mean technology nowadays actually designed in the opposite way so it says oh you broke your foot now use this thing and now we chain to this thing and you're going to use it forever and then you can walk kind of walk with yourself anymore. But in this case, you only use it for something that you need. If you have a shared agreement that there's a chef or you cook a clean, we don't need to log that. It's it's kind of atomic with each other. And we don't use the technology. But if we don't know who's cooking today, then you need to put it somewhere. We need to make a cooking schedule. That is use of technology.

It's a is a whiteboard that you're using, right? It's a communication tool. So this is a magical whiteboard. a whiteboard that not only tells you that is your cooking schedule but is actually telling everybody else that there is a need into your community that others can resolve. Yeah. So everything about technology has two um it's like what kind of affordances does it give you and what kind of um cost does it have. So, it's really important that you're very aware of the cost so that you can decide if the affordance is is worth a candle. When when you're turning on the status, you actually get

this notice and because you need to be aware of what you're actually doing. If you're turning up a a credit system, you're changing the shape of your community because you're actually enabling accounting. And so you need to get like a disclaimer and say the technology is to remember is to give the visibility of what is happening. It is the human that makes the meaning. If a person hasn't used the technology at all and is at zero is not that he needs to be excluded. Right? So it's really important that this is the start of the conversation not the end of the conversation.

>> Just one addition everything we use as a techn technology focus on digital technology because I think so far as notable I guess I didn't want to interject too long but just saying that I think the issue with digital technology is often the same as the issue with all of capitalism is that it's not ours to build. I don't think screens have to be distraction portals. That's just the

business model that they give it to us under. But if we are building our own technology, we can build it without these attention hooks and actually in a way to aid you to get off of that technology or work as well without it as opposed to getting you addicted to it for the business model of the people issuing that technology. Mhm. technology that is built by community for community. So something that we need to use like it's a tool. It's a tool that we want to use. It's not a tool that then is going to enslave us. And obviously >> like a training.

>> Yeah. So I like I like to say it as a training process, right? Like my my vision is kind of to gamify this community living process that not everyone is used to. Everyone is wired in a different way. So we need to do a transferring process to these like other dynamics other things into more a community way that not everyone is used to. So we need to like make system that can be gamified that is kind of a training but once you have it inside you don't need to have this to track you have your track inside of you yourself because you're doing the best you can every time right and you have all the tools in your hands but right now what we're building is these tools for being able to transition from that world to the community like actual reality not not just from the idealism but to the

actual practice. >> Yeah. and what you gain so as I said the perfect community the family there is no accounting there is education uh for anywhere where you don't have the trust or the because that is it is is a is a scaling up of the trust for instance we're working together and then we got money how do we split it so if we in our community we agree that uh well we're tracking the hours of contribution or we split did everything together or we are tracking how many times we we cooked and the ones that actually cook the most gets the money, right? Or or or right. So we need to be

able to choose what is the value system of our Holland. So if you get the status that's local host so across communities you do not see each other you do so you don't know what's happening on the other side that's the level in which technology is more useful you try to say this community is not using the technology but is relating to this other community. So that what does it mean? It means that we probably share everything. We're like a family, but

it's relating to this other community for what the shared um uh outcome is benefiting them and we keep track of that, right? Because at that level, we're not yet family and we don't have the federation and the visibility to actually see if we are in balance. So there is always a moment in which you need to use a mutual credit system or potentially just even money. If you use money means you don't trust each other at all because that's the exit basically, right? But all the way down there is a whole scale. It's a continuum and you can choose to which level are you going to relate to the point of saying we don't have to use money and and accounting [music] without inside our trusted environment and everybody's

contributing and if there is something that feels unfair, we're going to talk about it. There's no technology that's going to fix that. But there is a technology that can tell you, hey, you said you would do this. You said you would do this for 10 days and you didn't do it. Do you need something? Shall we assign it to somebody else? Right. So yeah, I can totally feel the fear of um [music] you know like a a panopticon but actually we're bringing visibility to each other not to the right so that we can talk about things.

Um, I want to show you or this thing. So what does it mean is that we can decide what our values are. Is completing a task, is cooking, is planting a tree, how many points is that worth it? We can choose to say put all the point to zero. So everybody in the

community has equal share or we can say look we do everything share but the one that cleans the toilet gets points. So if I clean the toilet 10 times, you guys owe me. You need to clean the toilet as many times. So we're going to track that as a mutual credit and it's our choice. And then based on that, we can actually create like a a scoring system. So this is rea that then gets kind of distilled into a number. But this number is not a financial number decided by the market. This number is a value number decide by our values. So this means that I acted more into the shared values of the system and then if we are producing something or um there is a yield then

basically we can use this same number to create a split. So here's the blockchain where the blockchain comes in. We have a splitter that can say based on your shared agreement shared agreement of values this person will get 40%. and uh and the others like this. It means that this person did the work and the others watched. So it's fair, right? Um but it's not enough. [snorts] This is quantitative. This is for things that can be quantified. So we needed something else.

And so we created another splitter. So this is going the internal is going to this quantified system. But we can choose to actually share based on zone. So if I have another holland or another person, we can put people into this in this this zone. I can just drag and drop them and without asking without accounting for whatever this has done is going to get 27%. Because that's relational. We're just basically highlighting the relation and and declaring it. And inside that there is the same system that can do the same to you. So here we're starting to create an

econom social economic >> graph there situation. So what is this? What's an example? >> Let's say we come together and we go to collect some olive oil and we decide like uh um we're going to measure in the time spent. So I spent three days, you spent one days or we can also decide to decide on uh how much kilos of crates of olives we picked each. So that defines our internal split. So that means that if I did 10 times more work than you when we mint the olive oil token, we send it to

our Holland and that's automatically split 9010, right? say um but we can also choose that we were doing this and there was a community for us that were actually borrowing the tools. Uh there was my family that was cooking. So we're going to say you did not participate in this olive picking but we you supported us doing this by giving us these tools and so on. So we're just going to put you into our zone system. And so basically whatever it is that we're going to the yield that we get you get to share. And this is declarative and you can decide basically what is the you know do we want to have all the zones like this. So this is like

the remote the control of the of the of the spaceship of your holland in terms of economics. >> So it's like kind of an easy to use way to decide what shares to >> Yes. So this is the shared agreement that you do when you enter the common when you enter the holl what is the value how we going to track how are we going to share with others that are supporting us. So this is really key because this is >> it's like a social contract >> is a social contract.

>> Yeah. >> Exactly. Yeah. So in this case we're saying whatever flows in flows in you know I have like 20% what is it here. So I will get if you go to liinal% >> yeah so you can really see this is the total that we have now it's 100% if you have money on open collective that would be like €3,000 and then you would know exactly how much of this 3,000 actually belongs to me. This is Yeah.

So the fact that what we're doing is that we're having a pot a pi and we're basically here identifying that some pi will be shared some pi will be shared quantitatively some pi will be shared qualitatively and we're just making that public so that we can see that we can see why should I get more and we can see who who else is getting it and we can also go to them and see how they're going to spend what they're getting.

Right? So we have this ecosystem of is of is is a graph is a social economic graph where not only money but any resource could flow through it. So when I mint olive oil token, these people are not going to get money but are going to get olive oil for the kindergarten, right? It's the kindergarten that we put in our relational. They're not doing something for us directly. They're not resolving the task, but they're doing something for us and we value that, right? So internal value, external value.

>> I was wondering how things without asking about psychology. >> That's an interesting uh topic to explore. I mean I would be very interested to explore how how is the actual uh process emotional and social dynamics of of coming to that agreement.

>> Yeah. >> Because once you've come to the agreement it's easy that you know the tech can can handle it. >> Mhm. >> But then was that agree you know how it's almost like how much of everybody's heart was it really that in in that agreement and things like that you know what was how voluntary really how much was it really? Yeah. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> Can I attach my question? >> It's related. >> Um my question was one like how is that agreement is it completely dependent on trust or is there a mechanism through which we validate that yes that agreement was made. Maybe it is through our I don't know

wallet address that through which we sign that agreement or maybe something else. But is there a mechanism or is this just purely based on trust? And the second thing attached question is what kind of social conditions do you actually need for this tech to actually work because yes it's it's actually excellent to see what I find it really interesting in what you're showing is it's a way of acknowledging care work as important part of this dynamic and to understanding that for us to be going olive picking there is somebody at home taking care of our children and making food and that is excellent value.

>> That visibility to have to show like you know it's not just accounted in terms of like you know means of production but also means of care and how that inter is very impressive but I'm curious what kind of social conditions do you actually need first for that technology to be useful? >> Yeah, good question. Yes. So we need a collective agreement that you want to enter but it's so that's why I brought this I drew it yesterday and then AI made it nicer. Uh um let's call this is a holland and this is this could be people it

could be hollands inside but basically what we can say is like if you're in it if you're in it we're creating a bubble in which we agree for instance is one of the option this is you all the technology allows you to decide everything there's nothing that is imposed it's just giving you the spaceship that you can fly anywhere and you can connect and you know telepathically coordinate with the other spaceship. is is giving you the the infrastructure for communication internally and externally and you decide right so so imagine now we want to create using this technology an income generating and

a resource sharing common right so we're basically saying this is what what we want to have and so what we'd say is like if you're outside you're where we're going to take some income from if If you're inside, we're going to share resources. So all all the people that collectively agree to come in, it creates that social condition that is a requirement to come in. So if you don't want that, if you don't want to share resource, you say, "No, no, wait. I want to get paid for for my consulting." Well, then right, but you're outside here. So if then the group wants the consulting and can pay

you. But if you're actually inside then you say consulting is free of charge. So we can have the social agreement that if you're in we're going to help each other through our resources that could be some materials, consulting, skill set, network, whatever the eight forms of capital. We're going to share this. So we're going to enable this new group to actually make some money from the outside. So you see here like money okay money comes in we say a part of it stays at the at the boundary. So this is say 30% like app store app store takes 30% and it's

another company so why not taking 30% for your own group right and then you this one stays at the edge the person that has done the work actually get 70%. But this is a collective agreement it means that everything the person is going to own is going to receive is going to pass through this boundary. If that is the case, this is like really a big commitment, right? It's like, hey, if I get money, I'm going to share 30% with you guys. This is high trust empowerment and we created it by ourself is our shared agreement.

If you breach that agreement and if you sign agreement, you can go to court. So you can trust but also make sure that you have an agreement that is enforcable so that then you can trust even better. Right? The whole point about agreement is to when things goes bad not when when things goes good. So I really would like you to to grasp what this mean when income comes in a person gains. We we collected we collectively help this person by bringing in more clients. So their success it means bigger funds for the collective. So if we all help each other and we and we keep growing the

common then we can decide together that we can use the money to create another additional node in the common that we need. So in a way we are we are just went from the single to a collective and that's the alonic step. Does that answer the question about the social condition? >> Yes. I I love to talk about that because I think that the commons is the creating commons is the biggest use case and right u

exactly and you can decide um Sorry Brad, you already asked a few questions. So maybe for fairness, I would just get >> Do you also have a mediating body or even a court like say a little or something resembling that when things go bad or are you that good meanwhile that you you know have sensors to avoid that situation?

>> Yeah. So that's a part of the social legal infrastructure and so we do have we have created the association. So the association has the council elder console which is basically the body for the mediation. Um it has also there's a constellation of eight different type of contracts. These are the rules rules of the game and this is how you get resources for free. This is how you actually can get access to it. the terms and condition this the kind of nitty-gritty things that you need to be able to relax into the commons rather than oh I give you this but then you're taking advantage or monetizing on it the money doesn't come back

this is what creates the trust unfortunately uh because we can start with trust but then we get hurt and then we don't trust anymore this is to guarantee that the trust is kept and is designed also this not to this is not a corporate trying to own you. This is a constellation so that we can all agree how to share without the fear of being hurt. So this is very ugly though like it's all legal ease and it's very difficult to get access to. So that's why we put like a a little bot here that you can ask questions and so it's easier to relate to the to the constellation. And this is uh so this is the legal form and

then through this legal form there's a fiscal right so what how does the money enters the association remains in the association and through the technology we have pointers of how much money you get you can allocate for the collective purpose. So we don't have to take take decision every time who's taking the decision on what needs to be spent where this money should be assigned. You have contributed to the collective. You're able to assign this directly without question asked as long as it fits the purpose of the association which is regeneration integral regeneration. So it's pretty wide, right? So this is our implementation of this technology.

I mean uh Michelle, you want to >> I was first. >> Yeah. But I but I didn't I didn't really have a question. I just wanted to respond to Nana. I think it takes a moment to shift the conception of what the agreement is from the way we're used to it where everybody comes into consensus to an honic system. So you know we used to talk about intersubjectivity and that's kind of like agreeing to disagree. So back to the analogy of forks and spoons, if you can't all agree in this one big circle, you can internally have two smaller circles who

agree. And the so to creating the social conditions, if you can't create the social conditions with the whole world under capitalism, for example, you can split that and split that and split that so that you can finally get down to a layer of trust in which you can have concordance. Does that make sense? So the multiscaler and intersubjective part of it fundamentally changes what agreement means and allows you to create social trust at the level that you need to. >> Okay.

>> Sure. >> Maybe to refund that point I can show you this. This is almost like a a ecological secession. You know we are in a monoculture and everything is relating through money and we need to get money so we can relate to others through money. You start a hall and you start to find others and you can start building this kind of relation of trust and you know it doesn't have to be we're not all the same. We all very different but we are coming to this bigger and bigger agreements you know until it's the same like going from a desert on the background to a forest where we do resource sharing through a masilio network right so now this is a human forest of goods and services that we can

give to each other for free and sell to the outside world for a price so we're not denying the other system we're actually creating the bubble that that just becomes a black hole of about you. >> Um yeah, Michelle. >> Um so I I have a particular worry. So if I look at the the history of coordination in humanity, uh you know, civilization is basically division of labor. So you have a carpenter, you have a plumber, you have a housewife and it's like a a big blob of work that is given to one person and like it's not

very flexible in terms of the details but you basically know what you have to do and you have to be good at what you do. >> Then when we invented uh like computer work we moved to distribution of tasks. So I can do this particular bug on Linux. I can do this particular part of the design. And you assign like a a more you know minute part of your capacity to a collective project. And what it seems to me that you have done is to move that computer thing to the real world. It's like now you have a community which is doing tasks and you can So my worry is really like cognitive load. Mhm.

>> Um you know for example for me I'm doing a lot of intellectual work. I have an enormous amount of stuff that I um have to go through my brain. But then when I move to the physical, I don't have energy anymore. Like it has to be simple. Like just tell me what to do. You know, if it's in the kitchen, I'll do the kitchen every day. But if I have to go through like a board and like very complicated systems to know what I even have to do, like I'm already like half uh you know discouraged. Mhm. And >> so that's my fear of of of your system and I just want to know how you respond to that. It's like you know like the old style communities like especially

leftwing communities it's like 20% of the day is like talking it over before anything gets done. >> Um you know and a in a more authority system it's easy like you do this you do that yes sir yes ma'am and it's done. You know what I mean? the hierarchy is like has a competitive advantage because it it reduces the transaction cost. >> Mhm. >> And like when you bring up the transaction cost, it can be also exhausting and also efficient. Anyway, so that's my point.

>> Yeah. So I think this is the you do do this, you do that, but instead of a boss that you hate is a is a system that together you agreed this is our shared commitment. It every day we're going to clean every day we're going to we're going to cook. The question is like who's going to do that? And so once you have that sorted out and it can also help you to sort it out. You can there is out assignment and also assignment based on you know the one that's contributed beliefs and the only thing you need to do is really in the morning open up the phone on one page and see like ah that's what I need to do. So it's pretty much but there's no person that is bossing you around. It's just

saying this is my contribution. Plus there's another way as I said flex there's all flexibility in there. You can create any kind of environment. You can say that being Michelle Bowens it's a role so being yourself that everybody appreciates. So you're outside of of the of the shifts and right so you can actually create this kind of different situation role based organization task based organization you choose where you want to play including drop the whole thing we're family and we accept and understand each other that everybody is contributing in its own unique way to the collective. But

when money comes then that needs to be reflected. If a thousand come to our Holland and you're part of the Holland just for being yourself then you need to have an equal share. We cannot say yeah but I cooked. I say well we agreed that that was the share. So now the money comes split and we don't doesn't even land in the pocket of a person because then the person has power over that. I could choose not to send it to you. it needs to go to you directly through digital technology that luckily we now have.

>> Yeah. I'd just like to amplify Michelle's point there and and focus on the cognitive load and because um I've been reading recently a confirmation that a lot of fascism for example is driven by the need to simplify life. Because if you have a dictator who tells you what to do, life is very life becomes very very simple. you just obey orders. Um and and you know, actually going right back to my own PhD work, you know, cognitive simplicity is actually very very important for people. And um and so so I just want to reflect Michelle's point that it's it's not I I don't see it as being solved by the tech by the technology directly. There's

something which I'm not quite sure what it is, but it's kind of Yeah. Um, yeah. So, I I just just was thinking back, you actually have an app and it's kind of like a Tinder swipe left right style app. And I was wondering if you had like feedback on on what people thought of that and if they found it easy to use to wake up and use that. >> It's related also to the cognitive I I think this is also um an information processing challenge like what we see on the screen here could also be used for

um like backlog um management like so will Rudd talks a lot about commitment pooling um and that's where everyone puts their commitment in the pool you have a big pool of commitments I think there might be another extension to that of commitment weaving where perhaps someone like Nana as the organizer of this group wakes up in the morning, sees all the commitments, sees all the tasks and then just drops them to each and that pushes a suggestion. You were suggested to do this, you were suggested to do this, can you? Can you not? Conflict. Maybe it gets pushed back. Some of them are accepted, some of them are not. And now anyone can link any commitment from the pool to any task on the list. It's not up to each person because as Michelle

says, I may not be in the flow, but Nana is. So I think there are like several stages of sort of information processing using these tools that would ease those um lockups >> then >> I think that's a great idea what you just said Jeff like this that mechanism I don't know if you have that in there Roberto but the s suggestion like I suggest this for you and then I'm able to say yes to that would be a really simple and powerful >> thing I think.

>> Yeah, this would be the hologram mechanism. you basically can drop a task into the holl of another um and it basically says well this task leaves somewhere else is not yours but you could choose to do that right and that's also how you discover new location and new hubs because that hologram was you got it from this hub in which you're federated to and then you say oh Brian can do that so then you send it to Brian and Brian sees it that it's not his task but it's something that could potentially could interact act to. So that's a hologram functionality to do that.

>> Soft version of being assigned a task or I get to say yes to it. But I have to have the cognitive load of like which task do I actually do? >> Yeah. So it's sharing. Yeah. When you share a task that is not already participate into it. You can choose to then click and say yes. I want to also because there was a few questions. So I was we have this we had so much requisite diversity in in liinal to actually understand that there's people that just don't want to touch it at all. They don't want to have anything to do with digital technology and sometimes you need to put a boundary of course because of course we are doing this but still we kept the openness to say right how do we deal with this so there's a oneb button

situation in which you can actually print your tasks into cards and then in the morning you you put down the tasks into a deck of cards and everybody picks up you don't like it you swap with somebody else right and then on the back there is a cure code that you scan And then it showcas oh you said you going to cook today and everybody sees it. So you don't even have to go use your marker and go there. You just see the face of the person. This is the chef today. >> The only thing I wanted to add was just to concur and agree very much with the value of people suggesting to other people what they could do >> because that's one way in which people can feel appreciated. Oh right. Oh, I can do that for you. That's very nice.

Actually that's really good. And and there's a kind of scale and and one extreme at one one uh outworking of that is I can we can collectively agree that NAP for example will actually tell us what to do today and okay fine we'll just do that and that makes it simple we can agree and it's an agreement to empower one person to decide and that's actually what we did in our in our worker co actually Yes, we're gonna >> May I also just add a few words?

uh I think it's important for like um to name it as well um because what I'm trying to understand is the nature of this tool and uh there is a there is a book called uh tools for conviviality >> and yeah so tools for conviviality so the bas the basic premise of the book is that there are two kind of tools one is that uh enhances human creativity and autonomy and the other one is basically industrial kind of tool that extract extracts our attention. So I what I'm understanding Jeff also was your name Jeff that you were pointing to this that

what you're trying to do with this uh tool is to lean more on the first side of the what's possible and I think for that kind of endeavor it's very important to uh keep the conversation open for the fears and for the concerns especially when they are very valid and uh that kind of concern that is always arising for me is um you You know there is another philosopher called Haidiger and he uh names the difference between um poetic attunement and technological attunement and um I think that distinction is very important to to like have in our awareness and this tool that

any tool that we are using Jeff you mentioned sneakers and this tool yeah of course everything is a tool but not every tool is um dangerous in the same way to extract um and so we are always faced with a choice ideally if we are aware of what's going on and I just think that uh that it's important to like keep that choice open in any kind of community and um also So like the issue the danger with the technological kind of attunement which your tool is is proposing it's a culture

based on tech technological attunement. Let's be clear that this is the fact >> communicate telepathic communication mediated by technology. Yes. >> Yeah. All this thing it's pretty much it sounds like a technologically attuned culture and the danger there is that we are not present to what is that we are not having a direct experience with the reality with each other that we have this tool that is intermediate and that's that's a real challenge and I don't think that the way to like deal with this challenge with this philosophical and practical challenge of our lives is to like say I'm afraid I'm not going to use it at all. Uh I feel that what you are like your intention at

least what you speak about is that you want to lean on the on the first side of the of of of um using it for the good but there is a danger there and I think it has to be continuously addressed. >> Yes. >> And you spoke also about the integral human and integral human is not just what you put on the slide which is like personal, local and global. I think it's much more layered. It has the psychological inner dimension and if we stay blind like if we just tune technologically then the danger is that we are just not um that we are again not really in touch in contact with each other and yeah I mean

[laughter] maybe we don't need so yeah would just love to have as a part of this conversation in this like space I'm just arrived yesterday I'm going to be here for the next two weeks also this other dimensions such psychological attunement attunement and how we can bring all as a part of discussion >> and practice not just discussion um that would make me feel like I'm in the right >> thank you >> absolutely thank you >> we do need to wrap so I will give the last word to Roberto to close us because lunch should be ready.

>> Okay, I can do the QR. Okay, I want to answer the question. It's very important. >> You have the last word. >> Yes. But uh also I wanted to to show additional parts of the technology of how the federation can become global. These are hexagons within hexagons within hexagons and all of them are prefederated. So when you share a need for your community and you take this you take this technology to say we need this because of a crisis because an event because of just simple day-to-day operation. This is nothing to do with being human. This is more to do about communicating what your needs are so that then you can be human. So I'm suggesting this as a invisible layer.

try to push it even the intention is try to push it as far away as possible deep down but in the moment that you need you pick it up and you use it and through that layer of support we could my real objective is to just be human right and right now we're overwhelmed with so much communication and so much coordination and I see people using telephones and resolving problem of other people so far away and and not being present. So this is a pandemic and I I this technology I the objective is

to actually liberate humans from technology right because right now we using money as as our coordination layer for technology and it doesn't know doesn't do what we want it does what it wants and now we need to replace that so that it does what we want and it values what we value so that then we can be human and relate to each other in the most comfortable and loving way. >> Thank you. [applause] [applause] >> That's that's a holosphere. This is like

every single one of these is a Holland. So you could say that in this Holland you get our projects but needs offer everything that you see your shopping list imagine your shopping list being made available so that other people can actually fulfill your needs right your neighbors you don't have to go to the store anymore you just said I need to buy this oh here here here right this is the power of the technology when you communicate and the others can see your signal you're able to create a completely different Thank you again. [laughter] >> Oh yeah, >> there's so much more and so I'm going to be here until the third if you want to communicate this very important we if

you see something that could be improved this is an open source project so it's your technology so come and fix whatever it is that you need to fix to make >> we're going to be exploring now with the whole flow we're going to be connecting Now that I have you all here, we still need volunteers. If you do not want to put up your name yourself, I will point that responsibility to Stefan and Jesse to put your name on the board. So either do it yourself or we are going