Leverage, Capital Efficiency & Risk Mgmt in Crypto | Darius Sit, Cynthia Wu, Eric Qiu, Eric Golden

Transcript

uh thank you all for coming to the market structure panel my name is eric golden um i was at fidelity for 16 years as a portfolio manager managing fixed income assets mortgages municipal bonds treasuries a bunch of fun over-the-counter market stuff full-time crypto and host of web3 breakdowns um i'm here today with some great panelists maybe we'll just go down the line kind of introduce yourself tell everyone a little bit about what you do you want to start cynthia sure nice to meet you everyone i'm cynthia wu i'm funding partner at matrixport so matrixport is a one-stop financial shop where we offer custody prime brokerage as well as asset management to retail and institutions

good to see you here hi my name is darius i'm the founder of qcp capital we are a full suite cryptocurrency trading company um we trade sport you know we market make in derivatives on otc exchanges d5 and we do a lot of investments as well hello hey my name is eric i'm a trader at cms holdings and cms is a trading firm that focuses on liquid investments as well as we do some vc deals on the liquid side also so we do the full stack so coming from the trade five side i

love i mean market structure is really interesting leverage is always a good place to start it's um how markets move it's also home markets blow up um i think that you know one of the things i think be an interesting place to start for all of you just to go down the line is how do you think about the leverage in the crypto system how do you monitor it how much do you think is actually in the system on any given time yeah i think the other two gentlemen i'll probably have more say on that because they are like their p l is at stake but for us as a service provider uh that's not something we watch very closely day to day but that's the sentiment uh we need to be monitoring and be aware where the market is right so uh because we have a lot of clients a

lot of them are prop trading firms and hedge fund miners they take loans from us we do institutional lending so definitely we can feel where the temperature is from where the interest rates are right in the previous few cycles before the burst like in 20 21 uh may and to 2020 march there were definitely a period of time often lasting for a few months where everyone is adding leverage right everyone feels that the price is going higher everyone i want to take long almost at the same time in the same direction right so that drives the market interest very up like a lot in a short period of time so

typically when that happens we will have a sense that market is probably a little bit toppy and you can also look at the perpetual swaps funding rates and that's also quite direct in uh and look at that and the open interest that's quite a direct indication of how hot is the market yeah you know just to add on to what cynthia said uh it's uh obvious answer but not obvious as well uh so like you said you know funding rates and perpetual swaps loan rates are very telling of leverage in the market um i mean in d5 summer you had perpetual swap rates that went up to like 150 200 percent uh turn forward term futures rates it went up to like 60 100 as well so that was

very clear obviously a lot of leverage in the market um and then the question is you know now is there still a lot of leverage in the market uh not easy to answer right you know the rates are much lower uh forward rates are probably about five ten percent or maybe five to seven percent uh perpetual swap kind of flatish um but at the same time you know what what's the normal state of the market a lot of people don't remember that in 2018-19 during the crypto winter then um the the normal state for bitcoin forwards were actually backwardation meaning that forward to trading at a discount not at a premium so the question that we always ask is you know with forwards at a premium is that a normal state of the market or is that

still leverage so are we going to go back to a place where unleveraged means that bitcoin futures trade at a discount on backwardation in which case you know we are still quite in the leverage market and there's more ways to go so no easy answer to this it is easy to tell when the market is super overheated but when we are at the state at this stage it's hard to tell whether we are a mean stage or whether we are still average my personal answer to that would be i think we are still a little bit leveraged and there's still a bit more to go um but you know no right answer today as well uh yeah the other two uh have indicated it well yeah just a lot of perps that's what we primarily look at and then on

the defy side of the lending borrowing platforms like ave compound they'll have like 10 at the highest but now they're down to like low like three four percentage so clearly leverage out compared to what we were i think the problem with crypto and leverage is that there isn't a reference rate because you know uh matrix port might have matrix port might have their internal reference rate and then d5 comes in and you have a hugely different reference rate and then each centralized exchange has their own reference that has their own per rate as well so i think one one way that that the space i think would need to take a step in terms of the interest rates is

to have a reference rate for the space but easier said than done because uh you have that intrepid phi but building it in d5 is a lot more difficult given the fragmentation not just in venues but in types of products as well yeah going off that um it'll be very interesting when eath staking comes out uh when they go proof of stake we'll see when that happens but people have said the staking rate will be around like five percent if you add the flashbot stuff maybe you can get up to like eight nine percent but then that'll inherently be a reference rate and then we'll see if like the futures trade oh more premium and stuff and how much it takes to borrow but that'll be very interesting and

very different from what we have right now with eth you can borrow at like two percent yeah that's really helpful um yeah i think it was um sam baker and freed he said there was you know right before the luna blow up about a trillion dollars of demand looking to get in and we only had about 200 billion of stablecoin which is why you see these interest rates that to trade five people are like where are these rates coming from how are you able to generate this is this all just you know ponzi economics but to your point it's really fragmented i guess one thing i've always been curious about with the crypto space in general is with such a high volatility asset why do you think there's leverage in the first place usually in trade fi if you look at stuff like long-term capital

management a famous blow up what we did i'm still in both worlds i guess is you take an asset that has a really low volatility and you put as much leverage on it as possible crypto just went max max and said let's put leverage on a high volatility asset do you think that's here to stay or maybe some of the background of why crypto uses so much leverage and why it makes sense actually this from an option maker option market maker's perspective uh our fear before this period was that the volatility was getting too low right the realized balls you know i mean the the implied balls tend to trade above the realized balls and that's a that's a characteristic of a uh

frontier market frontier slash emerging um and they tend to trade around uh they used them just before this period it was trading around 40 50 percent uh and before this you know i think two years ago one year ago was trading around 100 and i mean that's the reason why we like this market right um but i guess i guess i'll answer your question as to why why does leverage uh i think it's just purely the fact that it's a very speculative market uh folks are not in here to do structured products index products they're in here not to get the you know anything anything below 100 is is low for crypto right you know so that's the reason why you see in crypto there's this phenomenon where the vc funds are bigger than the macro funds so you have a billion

dollar 10 billion dollar vc funds because any you know these guys promise 100 x 1000x return whereas the macro funds are not so i mean it's just purely the sentiment where people want the exponential return and therefore uh you know the leverage up is the way to get 100 return so i think that that's the reason why mostly why why we see this phenomenon of leverage on high volatility everything to add uh no i mean i would agree with that i mean in a bull market everyone thinks the number goes up so they want to make more money i mean it's just human nature so they just lever up and i think you just mentioned the fragmentation right representation and people have different views and there's a different rates they get from send

five platforms d5 platform across different platforms in stanford d5 so people feel that there is for traders they feel there's a lot of uh risk-free arbitrage opportunities if we can pull up a beautiful trade right and then they they're comfortable because they feel they're not taking that much risk right um it's market neutral so they just just want to take leverage to amplify that yield actually to add to that i think the i think as the institutional guys come in that's time to change so it's time to see people you know do structured products um i mean if you compare like crypto vault to like fx ball for example in the dollar india wall is like well four five percent crypto vault now is about 70 70 80. um you know the private banks look

at the space and they start salivating because you know the amount of things they can write with the kind of spreads they can take it's immense and i'm starting this we're starting to see the uh companies uh like banks trying to look at the space uh matrix sport ourselves we do structured products on the space and a lot of them are sell ball products so i think actually the risk is that the leverage stands to rather the volatility gets compressed the way we see in trap five so you know for us i think you know uh the alpha comes from a high volatility market um but as these products come in and index products come in i mean once goldman sachs comes in you know you know fidelity comes in it's like writing index stuff you see the compression that we see in trap five and i think that

will happen quite quickly as well so you know in our view i think the the window of this high volt does will not last that long right so uh enjoy lasts yeah i think it's one of the interesting things about institutions um i think it's probably a ways off you know i talk about in trade fi you basically are smashing atoms to find alpha it's like you're trying to find a pins knife and then and uh crypto you're you're starting at 100 and then trying to prioritize alpha i think it's an interesting point just to move to you know the fragmentation idea of capital efficiency um help people understand what does it mean to be capital efficient when you guys are doing these large trades across multiple exchanges you can't just have a prime broker and run across all of crypto you've got to really be strategic and

optimize your assets so maybe explain to the audience what capital efficiency is and how you use it in your businesses yeah so mitch reporter we we offered prime brokerage services last year to a lot of hedge fund so last year we can see most of them actually trade on centralized exchanges so for us the job is to provide more venues and financing for them to trade on those venues but this year a lot of things has changed especially i think after december last year the market really comes down the alpha that was easily uh gets in the central exchanges is no longer there so this pushes a lot of the hedge fund to look into d5 for alpha and that's definitely has been a

very big trend that we have seen so the type of demand that we often hear from the the hedge fund is that oh can you provide us the prime brokerage services we wanted the secure access into defy we also want to finance into defy and can you portfolio margin my position across the device and send file so yeah so we we just do what we heard from the market and that's definitely become kind of the edge in our product offerings and i do see that trend not going to stop it's probably going to accelerate as more and more um i would say startup hedge fund who is around 10 to 50 million aum they're moving that direction and

getting quickly more sophistic more and more sophisticated about the device strategies i think guys who are doing prime brokerage like matrixport i'm doing god's work for the space because uh think about it if you are doing a prime if you want to be a prime broker you charge basis points on on you know volume traded and then you take that clearing risk and you take that uh intermediary risk right um in a market that has a black swan at once every one two years uh it's very much like picking pennies in front of a steam roller so compared to trap fire where a bank is happy to you know um give a line to to hedge funds and and have counterparty lines and you know and then they take the default risk

uh and crypto that's a lot harder so that's in the c5 side right um it's very difficult to be a prime broker given how how volatile this place is it's not volatile in the sense that uh that you know it's um like mean volatility you're talking about fat tails here right which is the most difficult for prime broker um and then you throw in the the defy side which is uh has no intermediary which makes it even more fun right because uh you know it's the the simple answer to that is collateralization is completely inefficient in d5 um but at the same time you know well i mean at least two weeks ago the yields are very high um so now you have so now you have a situation where you have a very fragmented market in c5 and d5 and then

you have two big fragments there uh and then you don't have a party that is able to combine both um so i think we still have a ways to go you know in terms of being able to consolidate the market um and the market the way it trades now it's a bit more like you know a lot of bilateral stuff bilateral stuff and clearing occurs like like matrix sport will clear on bit.com or derebit will clear so it becomes very pocketed clearing so that's the reason why it's remains fragmented and the prime brokerage costs are very high cost of the tails so no easy answer to this but i think it's more big players come in and they're willing to take that counterparty risk uh we will start to see a bit better better

collateralization yeah um i agree with what my two co-panelists have said basically defy is very inefficient right now like the largest lending borrowing of a comp compound maker you need to be super over collateralized to even participate so what we focus on a lot of the time is we take oh we do business with like celsius and genesis and we have our spot positions like bitcoin and eth and we you do under collateralized borrow lending with them like bilaterally like as you said and hopefully in the future we will see d5 protocols be able to take on this under collateralization because that will truly move the space forward but

until then um it'll always be very exceedingly inefficient compared to the c5 alternatives so speaking of under collateralized over collateralized um you know there's been a lot of discussion on the other panels about luna and the blow up and how it affected a lot of the retail participants i'd be curious to get your take on the other side of that you know i don't know i mean depends on how many people in this room work for a market maker an otc desk they don't get to see the other side of the market of like what that felt like on the otc desks large trading there's been lots of rumors about people coming in and doing different trades i'd be curious just to hear from your perspectives how the saga of last week played out from for you all

yeah maybe i'll start um actually wasn't as bad as we thought you know so if you compare if you compare the market crash of 2018 and compared to the market crash of 2020 those two market crashes there was a real question in the back of my mind was is is this going to survive right you know there's an existential question i think in this case it was a huge impact and it was a huge wealth destruction event but there wasn't the question of whether is this place going to survive because it was well contained within d5 well contained within a specific ecosystem right uh so i mean there were concerns that uh ex if a big borrower lender has exposure you know you start

seeing defaults and better that that creates a domino effect um but there wasn't an existential question and there wasn't this liquidity gap that we used to see right but it gaps from 20k down to 3k the kind of gap uh you know there were bids you know the market was well contained the exchanges were very orderly uh they weren't uh you know exchange stops and and and and liquidity issues um i actually think that in this this luna uh crash was a sign that the space is a lot more robust than it was before um of course we are still waiting to see whether there were guys who might announce blow ups in the coming weeks it's possible um but you know as far as it stands now i i think to me it was a very positive

sign that the space was able to uh it was more resilient than it was before unable to take this blow in an orderly manner yeah um so yeah huge wealth destruction event i think 40 bill wiped out in like two days that's the largest ever in crypto but uh so we were farming an anchor um i mean 19 like who doesn't want that right so there's indicators that allowed us to like sell the ust at cert at like around like 0.99 but um mainly we were like watching the second and third order events so uh when luna goes to zero there's some really interesting like uh

events that happened for instance chain link pegs the price of luna at like 10 cents uh this was when luna was trading well under one cent but they had to like hardcoded a floor because um they were afraid of like an oracle manipulation or something anyways a lot of the d5 protocols just use chain link and whatever the chain-link price is that's what they accept so lending borrowing protocols who accept luna to borrow and you can pull out other assets got hit really hard by this so a lot of like uh i think on bsc there was one uh called venus i think 10 million was lost on avax there's another one called

blitz i think another 10 million was lost there and then um some of the other protocols uh i think there was one on kava that hard coded ust to one dollar so you can see when usd debugged um they minted uh usdx it's just a coin that they were able to swap at one to one and i think like over 300 million tlv was lost there so um a lot of times when like these huge events happen there are unintended second and third order consequences uh that are very interesting to watch trade et cetera yeah sure yeah i pretty much agree with what the risk has said i think for the first time first the cycle

adopter this crash uh might sounds very devastating but we're a multi-cycle adopter already and we feel that we take it relatively well and the industry is going to come back stronger uh if you look at the liquidation numbers uh the notion of value got liquidated in that four or five days is about 3.5 billion that's around i think 89 percentage of the overall futures market open interest and if you look at what happened last year if you remember when china bans crypto and that was really a period of negativity and the market liquidation back then is 10 billion right it's around i think more than insurmountary

percentage absolute number is more than this time and if you look at the year before 2022 much uh that stuck pure risk for everyone and that liquidation happened during that period time was 20 billion so this is uh in relative terms it's not a terrible uh thing and also it's in a confined environment uh and the on the positive side always look always always look at the silver lining i think what this incident could bring to the industry is definitely the focus on like building like real value building and also community building um and try not to focus so much on gross hacking

right don't just look at the tv else right don't look at the yield but also look at what is back in the yield because if you look at anchors financial you will be able to see that they are running a 1.3 billion deficit on annual basis and that's just not unsustainable and those are public of information but why people are not reflecting on those why people do not see this risk i think this blow up give everyone a reflection on what are the how to do the research right and after you find out this how how you manage your explorer well but yes sorry side note i think it's going to be uh this is going to go down it's a very

interesting uh case not in just not just in crypto history but in financial trading history in a given example that's a funny one right so they were they were market option market makers who were long lunar ust puts so if you're along the put you technically you know if you goes down you're going to make money but the problem is that it was luna against ust so even though they were along the lunar usd puts both sides went to zero uh it's a unique case i mean i've said through the euro swiss d-bag you know five other d-packs and as long as you're along with put your fine but in this case you're going to put your as well because uh you're hedging the hedging is not usd and then you both go to zero that's an interesting side note yeah now there'll definitely be many case

studies written about it and i hope they have that one too um i'll just be curious to go into your point about some of the interesting things about how free markets work so you know you talk about what in a normal market would be considered a mistake they would break trades you know if someone hard codes 10 cents you can't borrow against it in crypto um i find it interesting i don't know what the right word is because i think some people find that horrible you know your system said you could do this and then people exploit it other people say you know code is law and so if you can do it the market will find an edge how do you feel about you know if there's an edge it can be exploited versus how back to the point of institutional adoption when you think about institutions they

would never stand for that type of behavior yeah i can give a very good example of this so so so we are very active in the d5 options vaults right and basically what these vaults are doing is replicating the centralized options markets where you have intermediary that will stand in between you know managing the settlement price uh managing the trading process whereas the vaults are all it's the same process it's the same option trading process but in smart contracts and therefore like you said completely hard coded right if you quote a wrong price you're done you know the the protocol can't go back and change it um

if the option vault is using a chain link price and the chaining price happened to be 20 away from from the actual market price at a time you can't change it as well so it's very frustrating um it's very frustrating and i'm sure that many other instances of this you know where where the d5 markets have shown themselves to be inefficient but the truth is we are still in very early days of e5 right um where and the problem that we're trying to solve in d5 is not a small one we are trying to replicate uh financial markets which have been around for decades and function with the intermediary and we're trying to replicate the entire process without intermediary so we're really just at the start of it and we're

starting to innovate and trying to find solutions to this and i think the onus is on the space to build and be creative to find ways to do it so i gave there are frustrations and uh a lot of p l frustrations as well but uh you know i think uh you know it's always good to work together i think that's what's good about crypto community uh you know we work together and we try to find innovative ways to do it so i mean for us i think the the vision is in 5 10 years time the the the crypto space the d5 space will be able to replicate what we see in traditional markets um with with different mechanisms that don't require an intermediary and i think that that's what the the grand vision is yeah so like right now on d5 as he said

uh it sits on one side code is law this is a hack you basically lose your money unless they can unless a centralized exchange can track out who hacked it and then you can potentially get your money back but i'd say most hacks are just gone on the other side exact opposite for a traditional finance i don't know how many people here know about fx but there's something called last look so when the banks trade with you and you run them over and they don't like the price they just delete the trade so that's the complete opposite spectrum hopefully in like five ten years time we'll meet somewhere in the middle i don't have more to add a good job no i think that's a great point i mean i think that um as bad as last week was and i think as you know the morale has kind of fallen

to me i think about the trade fi world where in a fixed income trade you might do a 150 million dollar trade and it's done over the phone with me saying the word done that's it that's the whole thing holding together trillion dollar markets is two people on the phone expressing the word done and then if there's a fight and you you know adjudicate then you break trades and um the difference is that retail doesn't get to participate in that market they have a separate area where trades can be broken and so i do believe that there's so many better ways that we could build this but it's all experimental and we need to have you know toy problems actually solve it so i think what you guys are doing is awesome on risk management how do you look at the portfolio like what are the tools

you look at how are you in a market like last week what are you doing for kind of a top-down analysis to understand how much risk you have how much the market has if it's time to deliver if you need to over-collateralize talk a little bit more about risk management um i would say like specifically for last week uh you look at uh how impacted you are with that it's pretty isolated the luna ecosystem right so you look at your assets on luna uh how much luna you have and specifically even if like you collateralized other things on the luna chain they were worried for instance that the luna chain would go down and people could do like a 51 attack because not that much luna was staked so if it's a particular thing like last week it was just

what assets you have on luna but then that obviously trickles down into the entire space and like people started getting liquidated luna so they had to use other assets as collateral and everything started a huge wave uh so when like stuff like that happens you have to be heavy into cash and anticipate that sometimes uh the first wave of lunar liquidations happen but then people put up other assets as collateral and the second wave of btc goes down five percent and uh these waterfall effects can happen and encrypt them because of the leverage that we just talked about it happens more often than not i actually i actually think risk management wise uh it's not that different from traditional

finance risk management you have your var models you have your wrist limits uh the the unique thing about crypto i guess is when something happens like luna uh it's all about the tails right so you immediately when something when a black swan event happens you watch your tails uh what tail move is going to end the business right so okay look if you look at look at the ust exposure luna exposure that's contained that's fine then the next thing that happens is usdt starts to depect now that's a big tail because if that happens even if you don't use dt all your counterparties have a lot of usdt right so immediately you contact tether you know check with giancarlo and paulo and ask them you know

how's that you know like in a very polite manner how's the treasury doing you know you guys good you know and then and so i think you know immediately you need to look at your tails so i think um and and one of the toast tails is not just usdt or usdc uh another one is counterparties as well so you know you have the celsius the genesis and the same thing you're going to ask them you know how's it going guys you know make sure that the counterparties are fine because it's very counterparty dependent it's a very bilateral community so i think the only difference really is in what your tails are and how you watch your tails which is a bit more high touch than than you have in traditional markets because there's a regulator that monitors that for you okay we're in institutional lending

business and prime broker business so that's why risk management is really the key and i would say it's a bedrock of uh our business and also the scalability of our business we're lucky that we didn't have any ust or luna explorer because we were not comfortable accepting those two assets as collateral right we are very i would say our team does a a lot of due diligence work putting to understand uh the tokenomics the the liquidity in the market and the robustness of the projects to be able to add them into collateral so i would say in order to add a certain asset into a collateral for institutional lenders

like us or the likes of us is often a more onerous process they will be taking longer time it's not that okay we get a lot of like random or kind of ad hoc in interest like from hedge funds okay can you can can we can we give you this token right can can you take that and lend us your starter or stable coincidence and often we will need some time to review that because we need to be very conscious about the risks of taking certain assets as a collateral and other aspect is that when we lend out to um to do margin ending with hedge fund especially those with a heavy component of device strategies there's a lot of

work that we need to put into that as well so not only look at the team's backgrounds and nav the max drawdown but we also need to look at the list of protocols and projects they want to get on and we need to luckily we have a good team professional team of security auditor as well as smart contract specialists to really look into those protocols read the codes and also do our own independent assessments in addition to what they've been given right and also to understand what is are they doing liquidity mining are they doing arbitrage are they just trading and what are the strategies that they're doing on those protocols and and projects so that often takes some time and potentially we might also

need to build some white listing additional wireless things and control mechanism to make sure that the the money that we lend them to does not end up in somewhere the smart country addressing uh never been heard token right so i would say to do provide prime brokerage service to centralize exchange is way easier infrastructure wise but to enable that to the entire d5 space as a lot of uh heavy lifting or a lot of dirty work needs to be put behind to make sure this is really doable yeah maybe i can share a bit about how we manage our lunar ust risk so so we were we were luna seed investors back in the day um

so you know we we have lunar exposure and ust exposure because we are market making ust or market making luna options lunar sport and because we will see investors we had a line with terraform labs right to swap usdc and ust at par and that's something that we always have with any kind of uh stable coin exposure that we have and uh we always make sure that the line is good now we're constantly swapping and in january when when there was a slight d-pack you know we went to check the line and they closed the line all right so if the terraform treasury is closing that line to us it was a signal that uh the team is not confident in the pack

right so in january you cut all exposure so that's the that's how we sort of you know test the um test the the market confidence in a certain thing you make sure that you have a line you make sure you're checking that you know back to the point about making sure your tails are covered yeah yeah no i think talk about an informational edge i know where the only thing stopping between this and happy hour so i'll wrap up with my last question um you guys have been through multiple bear markets i think maybe just one last question down the line of in this cycle what is kind of like your outlook for the next six to 12 months and anything else you might want to share yeah maybe i'll start so like i said um this is a bear market but it doesn't feel like the previous bear markets

for one you don't have that kind of liquidity gap i mean don't speak too soon but you don't have the kind of liquidity gap in the black swan event you have active participation from builders who are still still building and more importantly we have institutional players in the space now right uh we have isda's with banks we have this does with hedge funds that that i used to trade when i was in traffic uh we didn't have that we didn't have this before um so i think i think we're in a very different situation and again i tend to be a bit more positive uh of course the macro environment's a little bit it's a bit scary with the fed raising rates and and inflation so high um but i think on everybody's minds there isn't a question that's become going to go to

zero i think that that alone that alone is a big difference and and i think you know both d5 and crypto are here to stay so i think for us you know while we need to manage risk in the next six months to a year i think you know we're generally positive you know everyone should just go into the building phase uh the space is going to go on so um pretty positive about that yeah um like he said it's pretty different from the previous cycles this one is a lot more macro driven the previous like macro has been straight up since 2008 like i think there's a world that if the nasdaq isn't down like 40 from highs luna doesn't depend today right like it's just a lot of risk off and cascading events so i didn't join like crypto to trade like

high beta qqq so hopefully that stops but um yeah my general overall outlook is uh a little just straight macro so like i think we'll see uh in like the two in the next two or three years like it'll go up the space is a lot like 10x bigger than before every cycle is 10x bigger than the next cycle every the bitcoin has not reached its previous cycle highs and that seems to be strong support so hopefully this macro stuff stops soon uh they talk about like hiking rates like there's like another like seven hikes this year so i mean that's pretty bearish like if they can if they keep on going more

uh hopefully that just uh in general just is driving all this crypto stuff but as long as the macro stuff goes away um i'm pretty bullish about the space hello i'm pretty confident that the mainstream adoption is not stopping and it's not slowing down despite the price till the end of the year might not be very exciting but i feel that's the building the deployment capital the learning um is definitely there right like i joined the industry four years ago two years ago we couldn't really see the people here that in this room and

get interested and please put in to this industry and two weeks ago i was in milken and that was that was not a crypto conference but literally half of the conference or panel speech i went to it will have some component of web three block blockchain crypto regardless what title it is it could be sports and entertainment it could be attorney investment or even charity humanity but they will talk about crypto and the people who speaking of that subject matter has a good knowledge of crypto it's not just a very superficial commenting they did their you can you can feel that they did their homework they they come with knowledge you might be doing something

on their own already so i feel that um definitely we're very excited about the the prospect of this industry and also um in a more micro level i believe that with all the infrastructure being built and more um for for d5 the the um there will be more institutional money getting into defy this year despite what happened last weekend yeah awesome thank you all for your time today and thank you to the audience for your attention thank you