Kyle Samani: Multicoin Capital – The Thesis-Driven Cryptoasset Investment Firm #361

Transcript

this is epicenter episode 361 with guest kyle simani hi i'm sebastian and you're listening to epicenter the podcast where we interview crypto founders builders and thought leaders on this show we dive deep to learn how things work at a technical level and we fly high to understand visionary concepts and long-term trends if you like the podcast well there's only one way that you can support us that costs nothing and makes me really happy and that is to leave a review on apple podcasts

if you're on a mac or an ios device the easiest way to do that is to go to epicenter dot rocks slash apple today our guest is kyle simani he's the co-founder and managing partner at multicoin capital multi-coin capital is a thesis-driven investment firm that invests in cryptocurrencies tokens and blockchain companies and we had kyle on the podcast with his co-founder tushar jain in 2018 so it's been over two and a half years so we talked to kyle to catch up on multicoin and also how his thinking had evolved since we last had him on of course in 2018 we were in the heart of the ico bubble and since then the ecosystem has matured we now have

many more layer one protocols built on solid technology and lots more decentralized finance applications or d5 built on top of these protocols what's remarkable is how little the multi-coin thesis has changed over the years kyle is extremely bullish on smart contract platforms and defy is one of their main areas of focus they've invested in several projects and companies like dfinity helium cadena lifepeer near protocol and algorand and if you're building defy and open finance applications you should definitely check out algorand it's fast it's scales it's secure and it

has instant finality and they've built several d5 primitives right into the protocol i'll tell you a little bit more about that later in the interview but for now here's our conversation with kyle simani [Music] hi and welcome we're here with kyle simani kyle is the founder and managing partner of multicoin and we already had kylon this was like we were just calculating before i think 138 episodes ago that was in february 2018 sort of when there was a big uh crypto boom time and many funds were started and among them multi-coin and so yeah thanks so much for uh coming on again kyle

hey brian sebastian thank you guys for uh for having me on the show it was an honor to be on back then i was one of my favorite podcast continues to be uh and excited to be on two and a half years later now we can see how some stuff is panned out i feel blessed love the show excited to be back on so on your website it says multicoin is like a thesis driven fund so i'm curious what is you might like reiterating what is the multi-coin thesis and has it changed since you were on last time yeah so we have three kind of mega theses that guide all of our investments they're on our website if you go to multiple invest

capital and there's like a thesis button at the top and those three mega theses are what we call open finance uh and we think defy is uh a part of open finance although i think it's open finance is bigger than just e5 number two is web 3 which i'll just kind of loosely define as trust minimize technologies to help people coordinate some sort of economic activity and then the third mega thesis would be the opportunity for non-sovereign money you can kind of most simplistically think about that as digital gold but i actually think that that understates the opportunity it's pretty clear that like by making gold digital and like having a smart contract

platform that can do fancy well you know fancy stuff like you get both something that has monetary properties and has some sort of utility properties and also just like every human on the planet can theoretically own these things and use these things every day and that to me is market expansionary relative to just gold um so those are kind of the three big theses that got our investments within those we have like kind of sub sectors of areas we're interested in uh for example we're very interested at the intersection of telecom and blockchains and happy to touch on why and just generally internet infrastructure uh and blockchains very interested in kind of geographic bets around the world um and i think we've done a good job as a firm of being pretty international so so those are our three theses that

guide our investments they haven't really changed since we started i think what has changed is is our we just solidified them you know we launched multicoin in october of 2017 and at the time like there was a lot of stuff happening but we just i couldn't fully kind of wrap my head around all of the things crypto is useful for and it took us until early 2019 to totally sit down and say look we've been doing this for a couple years what is everything we've seen and how do we synthesize this into some sort of coherent framework and that that really produced our mega theses that guide our investments today i was looking through some of the show notes for the last episode one of the thesis we discussed back then or maybe this kind of false

was that the most used smart contract platform will produce the winning story value this is something you still believe or like how do you think this thesis turned out yeah so i still i like more firmly believe now than i ever have that some smart control platform will surpass bitcoin and become the global non-sovereign money it's very clear today that if you fast forward five years from now to call it go to your 2025 2026 there is going to be one or multiple smart contract what probably between one and three smart contract platforms that are facilitating trillions of dollars of economic activity on a daily weekly if not maybe daily

basis like that to me i basically take for granted will be true and it's not very hard to extrapolate from here to get there and so like in that world like that's stuff is happening and you've got all kinds of consumer applications finance applications all this stuff running on some sort of smart contract platform and then you've got bitcoin which is just like a pet rock and you put it under your mattress and like it's just like it just doesn't do anything you know and like people say well it doesn't have to do anything and gold hasn't done anything historically and like i you know i i i try and give um perspective to like the historical power of kind of the story of gold but i think that that fails to account like

how do large-scale asset allocators think about their investments um you know i spent a fair bit of my time talking to like large endowments foundations pensions sovereign wealth funds large family offices like you know folks with big big dollars and one thing that has surprised me is quite many of them think gold is dumb like they think non-productive assets just generally are really stupid warren buffett's probably the most famous person in this school of thought where he's just like all the gold in the world you just put it there and you can sit in a pool and come back in 100 years and it's done nothing and produce nothing of value for the world and like therefore gold is dumb and like that's a pretty reasonable view you can disagree with it but it's like not unreasonable and anyone who's you know allocating

tens of billions or hundreds of billions of dollars like all these people are always thinking about returns and yields and you know productive pressure models don't do anything and so i think the opportunity for just a much more nuanced both monetary policy and you know real utility is a is a huge huge value driving factor and so there's kind of two like all these these layer ones like all give you the same same basic cryptographic guarantees right like they all use more or less the same photography and then they all have some monetary policy of some form now people yell and scream each other about like which one's the better monetary policy but like they all have some sort of monetary policy of some sort and when i look at smart contract platforms i see two things they

offer kind of natively that bitcoin cannot the first is organic taking and yield uh effectively will act as the risk free rate um in these systems which is super powerful and then the second is uh mev in any of these proof of stake systems like mev is going to be a thing uh we already see mev happening today on ethereum and that's pretty clear there's been a few tweet storms in the last few weeks like showing you know like there's real dollars going into nvd now and in proof of stake systems mev effectively becomes a dcf for like it gives you an actual way to calculate a dcf for the underlying value of the asset and so what's cool about like the fast forward five years like it's again like

this seems like a basically 100 certainty that we're gonna have some large amount of money flowing through some smart contracts if the thing's gonna have monetary prop properties and it's going to have a native risking you know risk-free rate and yield and it's going to have mev and all of those things can be used to derive some sort of of objective value so i'm uh i'm pretty bullish that like that confluence of things will happen i think the biggest question is will that converge on a single you know layer one asset or will there be you know two or three layer one assets that kind of share in that in that pie yeah that's an interesting perspective so talking about gold here i thought that was an interesting uh kind of statement there that so many seemingly

smart people in finance things think that gold and non-productive assets are useless do you think this is uh do you think this sort of signals a shift uh in uh maybe financial and econ economic policy and thinking whereas in in our modern economy tangible assets are perhaps no longer necessary to the functioning of an economy as was the case you know previously even just you know 100 years ago i i think i see what you're saying so i i don't have a super good sense of like history and how called finance people thought 100 years ago but if you just go like benjamin graham warren buffett kind of value investing

school of thought which predates um 1971 when you know nixon broke the gold standard pre-gold standard or sorry pre-breaking the gold standard um gold was more or less money right paper bills were just a claim on gold and nixon just realized you just don't need to do that and so just you know break the peg in the world since then the question is like do you want like i guess questions like do you value the fiat currency that you pay your taxes in or do you value gold because you have some sort of like deeper belief about like the nature of scarcity and like what that means for you know wealth distribution and like how human humanity allocates resources i never got into crypto because i like had like

strong like deep macroeconomic beliefs about like austrian economics and like the nature of scarcity in the world i know that obviously was like the foundation of crypto but like that didn't draw me and i'm guessing for the two of you that like wasn't your primary calling either my sense is that like basically 100 of the libertarians and like the austrian economists in the world today have maxed out their bitcoin purchases like i think anyone who actually believes those things today and like you know has an internet connection like has acquired all the bitcoin that they can afford to acquire and so like i just think they're all they're just all in and like it's clear that like that dollar number of is just not going to get you to bitcoin 100k right like it's barely getting you to bitcoin 10k

and like to get from bitcoin 10k to bitcoin 100k you just need new dollars to come in and like the new dollars coming in are by definition much more much less ideological and they're much more utilitarian driven and it's pretty clear i mean just look at like there's about 750 trillion dollars of wealth in the world like ish that's kind of the you know value of wealth um gold is seven trillion eight trillion whatever it is right now so it's about one percent of the world's wealth is stored in gold uh you can look at some other precious metals and other smaller commodities but like let's just round up the ten trillion for simplicity like we're talking one percent and change of the world's assets or in gold and basically all the other assets are productive they're either equity debt or real estate comprise the

substantial majority of the rest of that and then fiat currency is like another 50 to 100 trillion depending on how you would account but something like 80 of the world's assets are productive and i suspect that will you know be true in perpetuity because just like the world needs productive assets that like that's how the economy grows yeah that's an interesting argument so do you see i mean we have seen in you know this year even you know things like paul to the jones or you know in in this kind of more traditional asset management circle it does seem that there is like some traction that bitcoin is gaining do you agree with this and if so like how do you like how do you situate

that in those different in the breakdown of asset classes yeah so today as people are worried about governments printing money and runaway inflation and i mean like jerome powell went on television a few weeks ago and was like yeah two percent inflation like that's okay if we like go above that which is like a scary crazy new thing and so like given that reality bitcoin simply as digital gold is an interesting bet at least for the foreseeable future i think the question to ask is what would cause that to change and i think the just the the reality is that like ethereum which is definitively the second largest thing in crypto by really every measure you can you can count is just like still extremely small scale and just kind of everything that it does i mean like there's no you know the

amount of trading volume that happens there is a fraction of what happens the centralized exchanges which is a fraction it happens on equities or fx or other you know global markets the number of daily users here's like 100 200 000 like range right it's just like no one if you are allocating 50 billion 100 billion dollars whatever it is you look at crypto you're like this ethereum thing is interesting these smart contracts it's like it's clearly interesting like it's impossible to look at this and say like this is not cool and like this is not important but then you look at the actual scale of adoption and usage and you're like okay how many people are using this thing what are they using it for and those numbers all round to zero like again for anyone who's dealing with 50 billion dollars plus of capital

allocation like also consider like what are companies that are worth 50 ethereum's worth call 50 billion today 40 50 billion right something like that what are companies that are worth that much money and like slack is up there like zoom is up there uh like twilio somewhere in that range you look at those companies uber is in that range right and it's like you look at those things and you're like okay like these have some impact on the world right which let's call it worth 40 billion plus or minus any look at ethereum's impact on the world and like it's not a question that ethereum has like dramatically less impact on the world than any of those companies i just named because just the sheer amount of utility that those things provide for humanity is like huge right now is different like it's hard to do apples and apples

comparisons but it's just like if 200 000 people use this thing every day and then twilio sends like a trillion text messages every day that like power you know just like all the world's communications like you just it's just a different scale of like utility for humanity and so i think most rational capital allocators in the world look at that and say yeah ethereum is cool smart contracts are cool but like there's 200 000 people using this thing like this is not this is not achieved escape velocity um it may achieve escape velocity at some point but like it hasn't today and so i think all of those people looking at crypto are like okay ethereum's cool maybe it wins maybe it doesn't win we don't know let's just put money in bitcoin for now and we'll come back in 12 or 24 months and like see what happens then

and i think that's if you're again a soccer welfare the pension fund like anyone at that scale like that is the rational way to think about space and so your your thesis is that we will you know we will see other assets that are kind of emerged from smart contract platforms that actually reach scale with you know a million like you know uber scale and that then the native assets of those chains will over time kind of displace uh bitcoin yeah i i think so i think i think it's gonna take a while like you're gonna need something that's been operating at scale my kind of general number is 100 million

users when something hits 100 million users that's like the scale when facebook like gets like scared right like google pays attention at 100 million users like 10 million users google and facebook don't even pay attention to you and so at that that's kind of the to me is like escape velocity scale and so when you have something that's like 100 million you know daily actives then it has the potential to like potentially surpass bitcoin but until you get to there i i don't think that's that's even on the table what are your bets in terms of who will win that race yeah so we've made a handful of bets um in the space layer ones and lair twos uh we don't own any ether today we haven't owned an ether for probably two years a year and a half two

years um that actually doesn't reflect our views on each of the assets um it's a reflection of if ethereum is going to win and be successful i would rather own other much smaller cap assets that are tied to ethereum the ecosystem that just will have much more upwards price ability so like the graph is a very good example of that scale is another example um those types of bets we just prefer to belong those things because i think you have much much better overscored ratios that only heat itself at 40 billion so we're along the ethereum ecosystem uh through those kinds of bats and then we embed on a handful of other layer ones most notably near uh solana algorand and meena protocol and dfinity so those have been the odds we made and of those we've been pretty

publicly um most supportive and bullish about solana and we do own that is our largest you know layer one position back in january we interviewed steve coquinos and sylvia mccally of al grand and during our conversation we talked about how algorithms unique design makes it easy for developers to build sophisticated applications on their platform so what's great about algorand beyond the fact that it's fast it's secure it scales and it has instant finality is the fact that they've designed a layer one protocol with primitives that are purpose built for d5 so what that means is that they've taken some of the most common things that people do with smart contracts and they've embedded them right in the system right in the layer one so things like issuing tokens atomic

transfers well these are built into the layer one and smart contracts are first class citizens on all grant so with these essential building blocks at your disposal you can build fast and secure defy apps in no time to learn more about what algorand brings to the table and how to get started i would encourage you to check out algrand.com epicenter that lets them know that you heard about it from us and it takes you where you need to go to learn about their tech and with that we'd like to thank al goran for supporting the podcast so i'm curious i mean one of the things that i think is to be noted i guess about the other layer ones other than ethereum is the the difficulty that these projects have

in attracting developers to build applications on their platforms and you know for something like cosmos there's like decent community there of people building applications and then um you know perhaps on polka dot and then it kind of trails off from there i feel like there's there isn't that much traction on these other platforms other than you know perhaps speculating on a token you know what what do you think is the thing that that kind of sparks development on these other platforms or do you think that there will be you know consolidation around uh one or two major platforms you know looking 10 15 years into the future so i i am a one chain maximalist um no i don't think we're going to get

there anytime soon like that that feels 10 years away but like i believe that there should be one magical chain that does everything and it works for everyone i realize that's that can happen but that's kind of my ideal state of the world it's pretty clear that i think over the next i think 24 months from now it will be very clear which two or three chains matter um i think it's very unlikely that 24 months from now people actually think like chain number six has a shot just the marginal benefit of being chain number four number five it's just it's so small so i feel quite confident that yeah three basically three ecosystems will matter ethereum is more or less guaranteed to be one of those and then the question is kind of what

are the other one or two in terms of like the first question of how do you attract developers so there's a few ways to think about this so one is gas fees on ethereum have forced people to go elsewhere um and you can see this this happening now um i can't disclose a couple of names but there are some some folks who are pretty large users of poa network for example um that are like currently in the process of building like moving outright to another chain there are a lot of folks like look at like the braves of the world the reddits of the world the like snapchats of the world there's all of these people who are all looking at crypto and they're all interested right like they

all see something and you know they all want to do something there but like they can't do it on ethereum today it's actually impossible we'll see how kind of the results of this reddit layer 2 baking scale off thing but like it's clear that they just don't want to make a decision like they've told everyone we're interested but like they're just buying time which is actually the rational thing to do like if you're the cto of reddit the right thing to do is just to say we're just probably too early let's just talk to everyone and stay in touch with everyone and like see what's you know what's going to happen and like that is the rational thing to do and so like just imagine like let's just say tomorrow for simplicity the reddit guys come out and say we're going to build everything on here or

we're going to build everything on solano right i'm not making any predictions i'm not close to the reddit team just hypothetical that happens does that completely reshape the competitive landscape of the entire ecosystem and like i'm fairly certain the answer is yes like in a massive way um because the scale any of these distribution platforms provide is so much larger than the entirety of crypto combined like times 10. and so i i think it's very it's very easy for all of us to like we talked to each other on crypto twitter to be like oh there's no one using these new things a that's not true they're just early i mean look at where ethereum was in early 16 right like salon has been out for six months near has been out for a week

or something um polkadot's been out for i don't know a couple months now so it's just just early but like you can see stuff happening and uh and then so hey stuff is happening in the d it's not very hard to see any of these large-scale people pulling the trigger in a major way on one of these platforms and again i'm fairly certain that will happen at some point when is unclear but it will it will happen and i i don't i don't take it for granted that they're going to use it here okay so the so what you're saying is that the the major inflection point may come when large web 2 companies start building on yes

on blockchain platforms okay distribution matters more than anything else like forget about your ideological beliefs about anything forget about programming environments the maturity of tool sets like all of that stuff rounds to zero when you say we have 50 million users using our thing every day whatever the thing is and we're going to like start using some blockchain to do x or y or z it's just like every other variable combined does not matter um distribution matters more than anything in the world and so um and we know i mean brave is like very clearly thinking about crypto right like you know like we know that reddit thinking about crypto snapchat hasn't said anything publicly but like you can imagine there's like some cool stuff to do around some nfts and some other

like types of payment things in there to like compete asymmetrically with instagram and facebook like it's not that hard to see these guys doing some pretty interesting twitter obviously like keeps talking about it although like i don't know how you're gonna build any of that stuff on bitcoin but you know like this stuff's gonna happen and um those those ctos making those decisions are not ideological for the most part and like their number one constraint is scale like all of those guys right their job is to think about how do we serve 100 million daily active users um and so scale is like their number one requirement so in the in the crypto space right so you have bitcoin and you have ethereum that had these you know kind of unusual uh stories of uh coming about and you

know the the investors and token holders and like that kind of took some some course that was you know unprecedented and then after that we had you know there was of course crackdown on token sales and you know the la the most of those layer ones that are now kind of coming up to compete they have you know approaching a different way right they're mostly raised from vcs and accredited investors and you know there is definitely i think some let's say in the ethereum community some resistance to that right there's something that they prefer about the ethereum approach so i'm wondering do you think this is going to be a significant factor that we're going to have these kind of

uh you know maybe differences in philosophy or is in the end this is just gonna be you know whoever can give to scalability or the cost will win and the rest kind of doesn't matter yeah i am i'm a utilitarian at heart like so some fun examples to think through in history microsoft was like notoriously like bill gates was an [ __ ] and like steve ballmer and all those guys and like they kind of took over the world for a while if you look at linux like linux is really without question the most important piece of software in the world it powers android and it powers like every single server like runflex right i guess it's the most important piece of software that

humanity has ever produced and like linus is a total total jackass like he's really like insufferable as a human being uh and like again this is like public information like no one no one's gonna contest this uh even linus won't suggest right so i i don't know so like one is i just look at like the history of software and it's not that like bill gates was evil or the lioness is evil it's just like the whole community thing i'm skeptical that like it it has value but it doesn't it's not the defining thing that has caused large-scale software things to win in the past so that's kind of one way to think about this the other is again just like if tomorrow you know brave or reddit or whatever says like we're going to turn on

you know start doing all this stuff on one of these platforms it's like where do app developers where does the marginal app developer go and like they can go build on ethereum which has distribution of x whatever x is today and then they can say or we're going to go build on you know some new d5 thing or something web 3 application or whatever on this platform that like we know is natively integrated into pick large you know consumer app and like it's just like okay if you're a developer you've got x amount of time to build stuff like where are you gonna you know go and i like everyone kind of hates apple and look at epic games is fighting with apple right now but it doesn't matter we all have to put up with apple [ __ ] because apple is apple like they control

distribution to the iphone right like distribution matters more than everything and there's tons and tons of examples of business history about the people who own distribution you know like controlling not controlling but being able to strongly influence the industry i think most rational developers who just want to build cool stuff and get it out there in the world and create value for users are gonna say okay like i want like it doesn't matter what i think i believe about the history of the ethereum story like at the end of the day i want to build something useful for the world so like where am i going to go build it so one of the interesting things i read was in the blog post wrote a few months ago where i was talking about uh comparing d5 and and c5 and in particular you talked about you know

latency and we're like talking about hey you know decentralized exchanges have this latency issue let's say on ethereum and they're too slow and that causes all these restrictions and that's why they're not gonna like you know be able to compete with centralized exchanges and now of course you've had unit swap which has reached like big scale what are your thoughts on that is has your view on latency changed no one without answers no it hasn't so guys if you think about like the idea of like liquidity pools for trading versus central and order books the guys on wall street who trade you know jane and suscahana and citadel and two sigma

and renaissance and jump and all these big and drw and like big crop shops i mean the number of of like finance phds and economics phds and like distributed systems computer science phd's like these guys employ all right i mean like it's the caliber of brain power and talent is like astonishing and so like and all these guys are obviously like hyper hyper competitive um and they have effectively unlimited resources and so like being like aha the future of like trading is x y equals k it's just like wait what like like no like you know just like there's just like millennia of sophistication has like gone into thinking about like the

nuances of like how do you provide liquidity effectively and make markets and like do these things and the idea that you can take all of that nuance and combine it into a single formula and then and then have people display that formula publicly and say like here you go please trade against me like i just like i i logically do not understand how that's possible that like that can now compete what has been around for the last you know 50 years or so of like sophisticated market making i just don't understand but at least on ethereum today right you you have had this kind of system out compete uh order book based exchanges is this purely because of like is this because of gas cost is it because of latency or is

there like some other reason yeah uniswap works because it's simple and also because the fees are very high um and the latency is very high like so just imagine if let's say if you just swapped like by the way no one should be celebrating 30 basis points of fees right like that's like really high like i think our blended rate on finance is like three basis points or something i think most people's like seven or eight basis points and like that's been coming down steadily right like 30 basis points uh is very expensive and generally should not be celebrated but like if you think about like uniswap right like if the price moves 31 basis points then an arbitrager arbitrages and make takes one basis point from the liquidity provider but now let's say that was cut down to five basis points like

so now if the price moves six basis points then like someone is going to come and take arbitrage and take a basis point right and you can imagine very quickly that like if the if the spread was five basis point fee instead of 30 that arbitrages would just be like robbing liquidity providers left and right because the amount of price volatility you need to justify arbitrage is much less right six times less for simplicity and so like ironically because the system is the block times are slow to update and because the fees are high the system like works and liquidity providers have not gotten totally wrecked and the fact that it's simple to use which is which i grant is an important feature but like the future of trade like trading should be one basis point right

like we should be celebrating 30 basis point trades we should be celebrating one basis point trades and like if you think about like how do you get to one basis point like that's a much harder problem to do in like the liquidity pool model uh because then arbitrages are just gonna take money left and right so they're cool but i just don't i don't see how they're gonna like when latency gets down to you know 100 200 300 milliseconds and when fees are effectively zero like trading gas costs are effectively zero i just don't understand how you compete with essential order book i'd like to take a step back perhaps on this defy topic and the starting point i'd like to take this is you know what in each of our early days in bitcoin we

uh we all had this kind of way of explaining bitcoin and you know we kind of like share these anecdotes for how we would explain bitcoin to people but it seems like defy is like not a very simple concept to explain to a non-crypto person and uh at least for me it's not easy and i i haven't seen really sort of a convergence around how we explain uh to non-crypto folks how how do you explain d5 to a non-crypto person like how do you explain what is the uh you know the value proposition for defy by explaining this to like a finance person or to like my mom maybe someone maybe someone in between

i mean if i was explaining this if i was explaining defy in one sentence to like someone who works like in financial markets like another hedge fund or something i would say it's a way to do large-scale risk management and transfer between parties non-custodially or like without counterparty risk basically if i were to say it in like one sentence that would be that would be it it's kind of a vague and abstract but like that another finance person would hopefully understand the implications of that if i had to explain this like more of a retail audience i would probably not emphasize the non-custodial nature of it and i would emphasize the like the ux of just like moving your money around basically like stop with the three day waiting times every time you move between paypal and your bank

and like between robin hood and your bank and whatever and it's just like you can move your money between all of these services in like 10 seconds and like just do anything right whether you're buying stock or a bond or whatever or paying someone just everything just works in 10 seconds or less that's how i would explain it to like a normal retail user like isn't that how money should be yeah i know i agree that's that that's a good uh that's a good way to explain it and and i feel like that that's how money should be argument or or way to explain it is sort of one that i think catches lots of people with lots of people's attention but i think one of the things that's that a lot lots of people often ask about defy is like oh

it's it's very speculative right and and this is sort of seen as as a bad thing especially by regulators i think since since we're on on the top you know we'll probably talk about that at some point but does it make sense these days to think of d5 or at least the use cases on d5 to be mostly speculative and do you consider that to be a good thing or a bad thing and is it bad for d5's image i would say like is it um is it detrimental detrimental to how defy is perceived by you know the retail audience but also uh you know regulators yeah so if i were to sum up the net output of the entire d5 ecosystem today i would say that it is a bunch of chick coin traders trading [ __ ] coins against

each other and i think that is the ultimate compliment like what is the first thing that people did with bitcoin was like silk road and then like and then like again and then there was like casinos and all my gambling games and like look at ethereum and it was like more or less the same thing and like so i think d5 today is just like a reflection of that that like when you create global permissionless censorship which is in financial rails the first thing people are going to do are great things which is fine i think the fact that it works for large-scale gray markets things is a testament to everything else that they could work for but yeah the net output today is a bunch of chicken traders trading should quite against each other which is great like i think that's fantastic it ultimately facilitates open access

like financial access to stuff whatever stuff may be today it's you know mostly other defy tokens but like you just change out the nature of the token tomorrow and like all aha like now you're democratizing financial access for a lot of people the question is how do you get beyond people just speculating and trading you know speculative assets and like you kind of sort of there's two-ish things you need to do one is you just need to get new people into the system and like grow the net number of people and then two is you need to have called non-speculative assets so like for example uh let's take compound today as an example it's a governance token that theoretically governs like this money market thing it's not like the whole thing is kind of

reflexive it's just like okay we have people who use it like i guess if you control governance you could rob everyone just change the whole system and rob everyone but absent like robbing everyone it's not clear why someone should pay to like hold comp tokens i mean there may be fuse in the future you know we'll see but like that's all kind of squishy right now like it's very unclear how that's gonna happen and like what the fees will be and how to do a dcf so a compound is like you know somewhat speculative asset but like look at wi-fi for example right and thing produces fees like definitively so like that's good and like what if we can just get more non-speculative assets in the system we've been for a long time thinking about how do you get people trading trillions of dollars of stuff

on blockchain rails and i feel pretty good that the answer is synthetic assets like you can replicate synthetic financial exposure to any asset in the world that has a price feed um we already know how to do this it's called perpetual swap contracts petrol stock contracts in fx markets in like europe and asia trade like i don't know hundreds of billions of trillions per day and in crypto like the perpetual swap contract facilitates most of bitcoin ether trading trades via the petrol swap contract and not via spot so we already know how to do this like it definitively works all the finance and economics and games theory is all proven uh we just need to replicate that on top of blockchain uh and once you do then anyone in the world should be able to buy google stock or apple stock or tencent or alibaba or

tesla or whatever right but like any asset that has a publicly reasonable price feed um you will be able to get replicated exposure on blockchain rails and like if you look at where we are now like that we're not very far away from that happening right like that feels like it's gonna happen in the next six to twelve months because like all you can oracles are there you know like usdc you've got settlement currencies now with you svc and usct at some meetings level of scale maybe die um maybe ether you know who knows but like all of those pieces are kind of coming together and so i expect to see perpetual slop contracts for kind of sort of all asset classes pretty soon and once that happens then you enable the next wave of entrepreneurs to go build like the next gen robin hood

but like probably not for americans because americans are probably just needs robin hood but for like latin america southeast asia like large part like eastern europe like large parts of the world those people who cannot access american equities or chinese equities today for example should be able to pretty trivially access those things right through the synthetic exposure what's the um you you mentioned latin america and sort of like the the geographical aspect of how how crypto can reach you know populations that perhaps don't have access to financial uh to financial markets or at least as well as we do in europe and the u.s you know coming back on this idea that crypto can you know has a lot to lose i think

to regulation coming down on it pretty hard what do you think is the risk that you know in the next 10 years we we have sort of two crypto ecosystems one that's decentralized that sort of lives in a bubble and has a very hard time interacting with existing financial systems and then a regulated crypto that um you know has licenses and is able to be listed on centralized exchanges and can be where users can on like on-ramp uh with fiat et cetera um is that something that you think about and is that something that goes into your investment thesis we do think about it a fair bit it

right now like definitively the e per the crypto ecosystem lives in a completely separate universe from traditional finance and that's like very obvious to all of us um and there's like this weird kind of bridges that like take you back and forth sometimes and like they're slow kind of hard to use and kind of crappy right and like we use them because we have to there's not a very clear like even if you assume regular like uh regulators are like super excited about crypto and want to like magically integrate permissions crypto with like permission finance like it's actually not clear technically how you do that in like a super elegant way like it kind of feels like what you do now except maybe you make some things a little bit smoother but like there's not a it just feels kind of

it's just like a hard problem so i think the probability that like traditional finance and crypto somehow merge feels impossible but like like you can take like maybe if libra is like wildly successful there's like some sort of weird like merging or something where like slowly people kind of transition from like old banking to like libra's permissioned crypto banking thing like it's plausible if you look out far enough in the future and cross your fingers and hope but um yeah that's you know just too hard to forecast um our kind of default assumption is that um these two universes exist in parallel and that slowly um over time people start doing more and more stuff in the new parallel universe because of

like the obvious benefits of like it's 24 7 and then no transaction fees and non-custodial and all these magical things and you know immersion slowly start accepting it and like different types of financial services and whatever started using it and they've got a very decentralized organic grounds up kind of a way um that's kind of our default assumption i i suspect what you'll see start to see happen in three to five years is like enough banks and other smart folks will be like okay look this like technical model like have a private key and sign some messages and like do you know cool things like this is like anyone with a brain who like looks at this is like understands like this is the correct model in terms of like how it money should be and so you're gonna see kind of the traditional banking system

in different parts of the world start to try and adapt this in different ways and points in time china's starting this now with their dsap thing it's not entirely clear to me how it's going or how it actually works but like they're obviously starting you've seen american banks talk about this a fair bit like jp morgan announced jpm coin which was just a dollar on like a permission blockchain like this is like a year and a half ago or something and then nothing has come of it as far as i can tell so you can already see like everyone understands like this is gonna happen it's just no one kind of knows how to get there uh it's not clear what the impetus is to like get over the hump uh but like it's gonna happen i suspect the the force of will from the

ceos of these large institutions will not be there until crypto markets are mature enough and large enough and real enough that like they have to care and it's clear today the answer is they don't care because the crypto market's too small to be relevant for them but like i think in three to five years that will no longer be true like you can you can see a world where like like in fast forward three years if tesla apple and google perpetual swap contracts are trading like i don't know 20 billion dollars a day which does not seem that that seems totally on the on table then like those guys are gonna be like okay this is real what is this how does this work like how do we what do we do about this and then they're all gonna start to respond in their own weird funny ways

uh and like how that culmination of discussions goes both among the banks and among the regulators is like and across different geographies right like it's really hard to forecast the net output of all those discussions yeah i mean for me actually using uh yearn was like a pretty something that really changed my perception on like how close we are because urine just feels like you know we can basically put some us dollar coin into it and then it can gets automatically deployed across different protocols and like you know put where they were the most money and you know his philosophy was very much of this like savings account and you can absolutely see that and of

course the interest is very high at this point much much higher than anything you can get in traditional finance system now is this sustainable maybe not but you can immediately see that this is very close to being like a superior you know us dollar account for you know most of the world and i mean i think that's something of course the ux is still a bit like you know not so great and you have the gas problems with the costs and stuff like that but it's very close yeah like we tell all of our lp's like some of whom aren't really encrypted we're just like look like please get my metamask and just go like trade something on curve they're going to trade something on your swap then go

put it in compound and then go put something in your right and just like do that whole set of actions in like 15 minutes or less and then think about what how long would it have taken you to do the equivalent of actions in web you know traditional financial rails and like it's like such a striking difference of of like right like how you accomplish these two objectives and like it's just obvious so i just like to say this is how money should be like it's clear that that is how money should be yeah no i i think it's clear that that's how money should be i'm i mean you guys are you guys are familiar with the the digital finance package that uh that came out of the eu commission a couple of weeks ago uh not super familiar now so this this is a

a regulatory proposal that is coming out of the eu commission it can take up to three years to be to be passed uh into law but uh it aims to regulate crypto in europe there are some things in there that are pretty damaging to some of the core infrastructure in crypto or at least the ability for that infrastructure to continue to exist or companies to build this infrastructure for so for example things like stable coins there's extremely high capital requirements for asset-backed uh stable coins and it's not even sure we're not even sure looking at this regulation if things like die are even you know will be considered legal in europe and uh at least in this first version things like interest bearing tokens are uh forbidden so you know this this

is just sort of like glossing over some of some of the things that are in this initial in this initial paper but looking at this you know it's it's sort of a a bleak uh future for d5 at least in europe i'm weary that you know we'll end up in a situation where defy gets regulated you know to the teeth and we um you know all the all these things right that that we're seeing being built in the ecosystem whether it's compound things like that unit swap etc have a difficult time continuing to exist in that framework so yeah i don't know if you guys have any thoughts on that but that's just sort of like where my head is at this moment at the moment with regards to the future of d5

yeah so i mean like the bare case for defy is that basically in every major jurisdiction even minor ones the government perceives it as a threat to their local sovereignty and they they go out of their way to ban it and if they ban it early enough in their respective life cycles in each country then like the network effects don't you know like over like right like uber worked because government said like it's illegal and people said [ __ ] you like i want to write a taxi and like this isn't the right way to like get around and like uber just grew super super fast and basically pretty much lost finance probably d5 probably won't grow as fast as uber did like uber is a very viral thing right like you get on a cab with your friends and everyone's like wow that was great

and and so it's like organically viral in a way that d5 probably is not or at least doesn't appear to be so i think given that reality of like the the k factor like the coefficient of growth is probably much lower for d5 that is for like snapchat or tick tock or uber or whatever it that that does seem like a real risk that just like governments ban it just kind of systematically all over the world or like make it hard enough to use that like my mom is like no the government said it's illegal i'm not going to try and use it um and like my guess is probably like 75 percent of the population like if the government says it's illegal like won't do it you know like you may have different perspectives of like what that you think that percentage is but like my

kind of intuition is it's in that range and so if you kill copy market size by 75 that's unfortunate that probably just means the d5 is relegated to being like again this one parallel universe that like is a totally separate you know place and it'll always just be kind of a grey market um that outcome you know means that like d5 will be larger than it is today for sure in that outcome but like is that a million daily active users or is that 25 million daily active users probably somewhere in that range it's probably not 100 million daily active users right so you know like you still have growth from where we are but it's just not like there's no path to a billion users you're that in that outcome

do you think that that the um you know we we saw this kind of exuberance in in 2017 and i guess we're kind of seeing a little bit of that exuberance now with with all this kind of d gen trading and d-phi all this d-gen activity um do you think that the community would be wise to build this stuff with a little bit like be a little bit more careful when building these things to not you know stir up the wrong kinds of narratives or um or you know the the attention of people that could harm the ecosystem right so like should we should we be more careful and not building like super speculative assets that um where like the risks are super high etc

i mean i'm a pretty big believer in like capitalism and not telling other people what to do and so like i can sit here and wish and say man if only these idiots wouldn't tweet these dumb things and that's regulators but like my beliefs about idiots tweeting things is kind of irrelevant so people need to be able to do whatever they want to do and like the idea that we're going to sort of as a community like collectively agree on some bounds is like just not not practical that's also called cancer culture and like cancer culture is like very scary very quickly um i don't want to go down that whole kind of rabbit hole but like i'm generally supportive of letting people do whatever they want to do uh up until the point of like injuring other people and breaking some bad laws well i i guess we

are a little bit on the topic and we actually haven't discussed this on the podcast before i think but how do you think this is going to play out in this kind of tension between you know the the crypto space that's trying to advance move fast build new things and then the regulators who are trying to like you know keep it under control and you know recently we saw with like bit mix that you know seems like regulators or and salt landing you know there are some things right where regulators are kind of like stepping up you know is it just a matter that okay people are going to build it elsewhere and then at some point let's say u.s regulators are going to kind of capitulate because they're at the disadvantage or like how is that going to play out

yeah so we have some opinions here um so we have spent some time a fair bit of time talking to our lawyers like understanding like what are the risks all these offshore exchanges face and like doing we've done a pretty thorough analysis and like an exchange by exchange basis and like which ones do we think are have more risks than the others i can't really share the net outcomes of that other than i can tell you like which tokens we own because we like exchange tokens because we've been pretty public about which ones we own so like you can kind of infer the net output of the analysis without really reading anything um and we own bnb ht ftt and srm um being the the four exchange tokens we own

so a few comments one bitmex was like really in a class of its own in terms of like breaking the rules um that's not really a question so i'm i'm less worried about the other major exchanges than than i have been next by a meaningful margin two like salt lending and like those things are different so you guys there's different regulators that do different things and i'm not really speaking to europa asia i'm just kind of taking a u.s centre for you to answer this question like in the u.s there's like four or so regulatory agencies that matter kind of sort of um there's fincen which is like money laundering stuff which like those are the guys you just took out and then like they work with the doj to like go arrest people but like fincen is like money laundering

sec is securities exchange commission cftc is leveraging derivatives and um irs for paying taxes and like the irs has been like hey people please play your pay your tax on crypto and like you know they ask you to certify did you trade crypto in the last year or whatever right but like the irs is like doesn't really hate crypto it's just like they want to collect taxes the sec is primarily concerned on like swindlers swindling retail investors out of their money and so like you've seen like the people who did like swindled like the sec went after them pretty hard and then everyone else is kind of in this gray state of the world of like is it a security is it not a security and like we don't really know right um but like it's clear the sec doesn't like hate these things and it's not like

actively trying to kill the crypto industry at large for people who issue things that are quasi security quasi-not security like you know i don't know but like as long as you've acted in good faith like it's clear that like you you're not going to have that huge of you're not going to have a criminal liability you might have some civil liability but you're not going to have criminal liability so like i'm not really worried about them cftc is basically just focused on like people like trading with leverage on futures which like whatever like okay like again like that's even if you do that in an unregistered way you know people who trade a leverage are generally more sophisticated anyways and like it's like okay like that's not a criminal kind of a crime it's just like okay like it's you know you like people trade with too much leverage and

then vincent which is like money laundering and like of those it's pretty clear that like the one that's like the most important is the money laundering one and so the exchanges that facilitate that are the ones most of the risk and like bit max clearly did the least to combat money laundering and so like no surprise they got the hammer will the other exchanges receive similar outcomes probably i mean they've all done a lot more than bitmex has to combat money laundering and try to detect it and fight it and such one thing i've noticed having spoken to ceos of basically all the major exchanges is like all the exchanges don't like crime like they really don't like people try and rob them all the time and then people try and launder money through them and like they know that's bad for their businesses it's a risk to

all of them and to the industry as a whole and so like although the exchanges generally hate each other as like brutal competitors they are like remarkably cooperative when it comes to anything related to like combating crime and i've like independently had this discussion with like basically all the major exchanges around the world and they all like seeing the exact same song because like they all understand the like collective risk they all face so um you know like that that will continue to be buttoned up overall i'm not super worried that like anything bad is gonna happen but you kind of never know the other thing i think is really interesting to even think about game theoretically is like okay what happens if like the i don't know the doj or like fincen just says like crypto's illegal like just they come out with some kind

of like crazy statement right um and like what happens after that and like the answer is like you quickly get a series of like i don't know coinbase or kraken or someone like sues the government and says like this is unconstitutional and like that's gonna quickly go up to the supreme court right like that that's gonna happen in short order it's like what what is the argument that like some set of lawyers was going to make in front of the supreme court on this issue and i mean i'm not a constitutional lawyer or anything but like my what i would say given my current knowledge is like i would frame this as an initial property rights of like crypto is like a very it's actually probably the strongest instantiation of property rights of anything in the world um because private key is just you know like magic

and so like by basically trying to ban crypt or make crypto illegal you're effectively a direct attack on your ability to own something um and that's like a direct attack on the notion of property rights um and at least in the united us probably more than any other country in the world has like the strongest enforcement of property rights um and so i i think that that argument would hold water at the supreme court level um and so i'm optimistic that even in the event of like crazy government bureaucrats or crazy politicians doing things like saying crypto's illegal like i'm optimistic that like that will win the property rights argument will win ultimately at the supreme court yeah i mean i think one one important factor in my eyes is also just that the crypto space moves very quickly and you know you have

okay you had this token sales software but the token sale stuff was going on for quite a while and then you know you had this sec white paper in the fall of 2018 and you know they started kind of cracking down but it took them like years to basically like crack down on that and then it was also just like way too much activity that they could really like control it so they would have to say okay you know we are going to kind of crack down a little bit and like some the most egregious parts and then now of course it's already moved on right and there's a lot of other things people are doing and they're again you know behind they're probably going to be behind like but you know by a long margin and then so i think that's also just like the sheer you know capacity on

their end to like evaluate projects look at things and act is gonna make it hard for them to take like a hardline stance because they just can't consistently enforce it yeah correct and and they know that and so given that they know that they just okay we have to go after the most you know egregious violators and that's that's you can see that's been clear what they've done anyone who raised a lot of money got their attention and the people who did pretty nebulous things like the the swindlers and so talking a little bit about the the crypto asset industry and multicoin like how has the industry changed since you know you guys got started to now

uh it's changed a lot um i'll kind of quickly touch on markets and then more importantly touch on i think kind of like the stuff we're all building in terms of markets i mean when we got in in 2017 crypto markets were effectively 100 retail everything was designed for like a retail audience only um you had basically only spot exchanges you had a little bit of margin to like borrow and lever up but not much um there were very few if any professional market makers in the space uh there was no few no very little futures or derivatives of any form and then there was no like alcohol institutional services like custodies and fund administration and and audit and all that stuff um it's been about three years since we

started uh today all of those things are like radically different um today large-scale institutions can invest in crypto safely like through regulated trusted custodians with auditors and all these magical things there's tons of leverage available there's not full-blown prime brokerages but like we're close to the point of getting the full full-blown prime brokerages and um like there's tons of futures and options and like everything kind of like works well so the market structure is just like much more mature now and much less retail centric the retail obviously is being served still i don't mean that they're not being served but just like the biggest dollars in the world are not retail dollars and like those people are now be able to be served which is good in terms of like core infrastructure

i mean like what we've seen happen over the last few years is like basically 2017 happens like the first use case that was good for crypto is raising money so big bubble happens in ether and a bunch of icos because of that that causes a bunch of smart people to look at smart ethereum and say okay what is ethereum motorsmart contracts like okay smart contracts seem important like this seems like a fundamentally important thing for the world and then all these smart all these smart cryptographers and distributed systems people and database people all looked at ethereum and they said guys this is like stuff optimal in like so many ways um like we can do better and so all of those people like nir and solana and dfinity and koda now known as mina and like all these people right like all said okay like we can do better and they all

raised a bunch of money basically say we can try and do better and those it turns out it took a lot longer than anyone thought to build any of those things that i i've just realized anything proof of stake related is just like exponentially more complicated than proof of work in terms of just building it and like this is empirically true across i think every single protocol and so uh they all raised much money and then meanwhile ethereum figured out something that it's useful for like i think obviously didn't go away and they were like hey we can actually the most useful thing here is issue assets and then basically trade them and let them involve them to each other in like interesting different ways that that happened and and so now we kind of know you know what at least one fundamentally useful thing

for four smart contracts which is d5 and and so that's kind of what's happened uh today we have the infrastructure is just so much better for using stuff i mean like right like salon has been out for six months and like serious usable today it's clunky to onboard but like once you're in and now the solano wallet and everything like it's pretty damn easy to use um the same is true for ethereum like once you have metamask set up or whatever right like it's very easy to go uh trade on curve and unit swap and compound the nav and all these things and so the the the cycle time of like what it takes to build a new application onboard user deploy it in onboard users like i feel like that time cycle is

compressed about 10x over the last three years um it's ten times easier to launch a new thing today than it was then that's the function of like tooling being better um that's a function of like uh wallet distribution being better and just like user education at least among people who are in the crypto space all of those things have improved enough that like it's actually 10 times faster and easier to launch something new um which is great and then like you're also seeing now all of the what i'll call like tangential services are also starting to like really hit maturity so the graph is probably the most important one of those and like like large scale indexing and querying again it's like super important to do large scale applications and then like other what i'll call the industrial services so things like are we even

tilecoin like we're going to want to store stuff that's not just a ledger entry and like those are again like much more the file coin launches in three days or we've launched like it's now just kind of hitting its stride so those kinds of things and then wallets just are just exponentially better you know now key management's better like backup and recovery like we have magic we have tourists like right like all of those approaches are all like well thoroughly understood and explored um and they're just much much easier to use and so that kind of combination of things has just made the whole ecosystem it's just much in 2017 it was hard to use crypto today it's better it's 10x better but still not you know like as easy as snapchat um and so like that's happened and

you can see now the kind of primordial soup is like almost there for like some big breakout cool things to happen like we're not quite there but like you can really tell like we're very close so i feel like that's kind of the summary of the last call three or four years and so looking back in 10 years uh what do you think will have fundamentally changed in the way people transact and invest and how much of that will be attributed to sort of crypto and d5 i mean i'm in this ecosystem because i'm like bullish on it and i think it's going to change the world so whether it's pure the question is like is it permissionless defy that like 100 people use every day or is it permissioned defy um and like i don't know how to answer that

question right now i'm hoping it's permissionless but you know we'll see in the event as permissionless then like all the stuff we're doing now is like going to be game changing and all super important in the event that it's permissioned it depends like you could see a world where they just like fork the evm or fork the wasm run times on solana or polkadot or whatever and like to great as always permission consensus content and like thank you for all the free code and like that's totally a possible outcome or they'll rebuild it all because they're bureaucrats and that's what they do i don't know so those kind of seem like the three major outcomes of all this but i'm optimistic that at least the idea that like you will have your cash so to speak and like money will operate as as we all think it should

like i'm optimistic that that i feel very confident will happen it will probably be longer and messier than i would like but i'm fairly certain that like the writing is on the wall and it's basically a foregone conclusion and okay maybe final question what are the areas that you're like looking at today and learning about you know regarding to crypto and investing that you think are most underrated so i i think the most compelling use case for crypto i've seen beyond d5 is anything related to what i'll call internet infrastructure um so i'm not referring to necessarily like rv file coin like

decentralized storage or like um decentralized compute more focused on actually bandwidth management and like packet routing you know internet bandwidth is fun is not fungible like i have an internet connection at my house in austin and you have internet connection in berlin like those things are not fun like those are not fungible right like my internet connection needs to work here and yours needs to work there um and so the internet is by definition decentralized um and you just have tons and tons of you know routers and ip tables and whatever right and all these packets magically wrap around the internet somehow the question is kind of in in like abstract is the entire way that like we route packets today

as economically optimal as possible and i'm like 100 confident the answer is no like not even close so like is there an opportunity to create permissionless ways to route packets that are like far more economically efficient than status quo and we have made two bets so far on that thesis and i expect we'll make many more but like i'm fairly confident the answer is you can do a lot better uh so like looking at helium is the most public example of this where like helium is like the idea is look at t and verizon and orange and vodafone and these guys like build a bunch of literally towers and go like run a bunch of land and run a bunch of back hall and do all these things but like what if just you and i can like plug in a thing in our house

and like get and like create bandwidth and share it and other people can pay per bite of data in real time right it's just like a totally totally different model of like how do you deploy enough towers to just blanket the entire world in radio waves and like that model i'm optimistic is gonna like totally change like internet access and like how people access the internet all over the world the other that we made in that space is called axio which is like a basically focused it's kind of the opposite of helium where it's focused on making an exchange where like people can trade data so like i have an 18t five gig gigabytes that expires at 30 days i can trade that for dollars in real time or resell it or whatever but like having an exchange for data where like today mobile data is probably

the world's largest commodity that is not financialized uh i mean not financialized like look at oil or gas or like wheat or whatever those are all financialized quantities mobile data is not a financialized quantity and so uh i feel pretty optimistic that like we will financialize that asset there's gonna be more stuff in this space so like althea is an interesting company right like they've been doing a bunch of work on like similar kind of helium model but a little different um there's a bunch of people right now working on uh like incentivize mixed nets or incentivize packet obfuscation like nam and hopper and handful of others you can see so like and then you just see more peer-to-peer mesh type of

things it's very clear to me that like some set of these are going to produce a large large large amount of value for the world and we've been pretty i think we've been probably the most active investor in in that space and i expect we will continue to be uh because it just like fundamentally makes sense like internet infrastructure is decentralized um it is not optimal and like by enabling permissionless access and permissions packet routing you can achieve things that were not possible before and so i'm like very excited about that like sector of stuff cool well kyle thanks so much for coming on it's a pleasure uh to catch up i'm excited to see how uh you know how the next two and a half years turn out and how your your investment thesis is gonna play out

in that time uh 136 weeks i'm counting down brian let's get it on the calendar put it in your calendar thank you for joining us on this week's episode we release new episodes every week you can find and subscribe to the show on itunes spotify youtube soundcloud or wherever you listen to podcasts and if you have a google home or alexa device you can tell it to listen to the latest episode of the epicenter podcast go to epicenter tv subscribe for a full list of places where you can watch and listen and while you're there be sure to sign up for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your inbox as they're released if you want to interact with us guests or other podcast listeners

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