Konstantin Lomashuk: '#bitcoin is like a #memecoin' - cyber·Fund. Ep. 568

Transcript

what what Bitcoin is doing it's doing regulation like in general Bitcoin introduced technology regulation invested in ethereum and then we invested in PKA Cosmos you know like yeah and salana was one of the projects that we invested in the C stage we could in general stay in Bitcoin like a lot of Bitcoin maximalist believe that the gut amount Sol for our issu in like but this a craziness in like Bitcoin is a calculator all like it is a mcoin you know like I'm not big deliverer in Bitcoin I think it can change evolve ethereum push salana forward salana pushes ethereum forward but who is the winner is a like people the fees on rollups going down and if the feast on

ethereum going down it means that we'll have more and more different type of applications that can find a product Market fit by using blockchains hello and welcome to App Center the show which talks about the Technologies projects and people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution I'm Brian Crane and today it's my special pleasure to talk with Constantine lashuk uh he's the co-founder and managing partner of cyberfront but he's done a lot of other stuff as well in the crypto space and you know he's been tremendously successful influential as an investor and entrepreneur so really excited to speak with Constantine so just before we get in with Constantine I'd like to tell you a few words about our sponsors this week if you're looking to stake your

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network with just one gno and affordable Hardware start your decentralization Journey today at nosis doio so yeah so constantly I I actually remember still well when I met Constantine so this was in 2017 when I was a COO of tendermint and this was sort of around the time of the tendermint the the fundraiser for um the cosmos Hub and for atom and then uh I went with Jay to a conference in Bucharest and he gave this talk about Cosmos Network and inoperability and I had sort of the impression that most people were like what is this I don't understand it doesn't make it and we're

kind of just couldn't connect much but then I remember meeting Constantine and his partner at the time dimma and they were like we've been following it we were like this is cool and then of course they yeah became in involved in the cosmos ecosystem and have done tremendous amount since then and and had already done a tremendous amount before that um maybe curious how did this all start for you how did you get involved in crypto in the first place uh yeah first of all hi Brian is always happy to see you you know like and uh uh yeah I remember this day you know like 2017 when I we met you and andj you know like an in general when all this Cosmos all these idea started

you know like and uh before the ginesis before you know like any production code you know like and it was a really like a uh all about inspiration you know like I I saw how your eyes were you know like in general how how much light it was you know like and in general it was a great energy and where you really were like and J especially was a maximalist you know like try to say guys this should work in this way and uh uh yeah so we were really like a fans of Cosmos you know like fans of Cosmos Vision I I think you know like Cosmos did one of their like biggest impact you know like in

general in blockchain development yeah and I was super excited to meet you guys you know like and in general happy to know you all this time you know like we did a lot of collaboration during this time you know like and I really always enjoy you know like our meetings so if you speak about my uh you know like uh previous how I joined you know like I joined in their 2014 in general my first time heard about Bitcoin in 2011 from my friend dimma you know like in generally dimma uh did some mining initially you know like of Bitcoin and he said me let's do mining together and I in general I I thought it was a p scheme you know like so I was I I I wasn't the

most smart guy in the room you know like so I didn't got all this ideas I didn't get all this ideas and I tried to in general so and I didn't have time back then so in 2011 I did some retail stuff you know like and did some business and I was fully like inside of this business and in 2014 initially I was born in Russia you know like in 2014 2013 you know like I already had some business that operate without me and I figure out that uh in general I don't want to be connected with the country you know like any country in general and also hold country risk you know like because in general the trend ofer I mean like administrative economy was not good for

me you know like I feel that I took too much risk if I will build a business in this country and so I start to research in general what I can do and how and in general I want to move to more it uh uh development you know like and uh in general Dima came back to kingr the place where I was and he was born you know like and in general he led almost all his Bitcoins on mgx you know like and uh we start and in general you know like he started cyber fund with his friends you know like and partners and I and he peed me you know like so I had some free time so he told me about the blockchain in general how it works how

it's different from you know like architecture perspective and how hash function cryptography works you know like so I read a white paper of Bitcoin and of course I were inspired you know like and back then what I can say that you know like uh it was how to say great time because we try to predict how this Market will evolve you know like and I can say that we ginate a lot you know like so people say that LMS are hallucinated now you know like or AI but I think people when they try to predict the future they can in general gluconate even more but what we really figure out that you know like I mean that is are healthy for each person in the planet

because I mean what blockchain is give is give equal access to each person you know like and uh yeah and so we did a report you know like about blockchains uh called cybernetic economy report in general I join cyber fund and bought a share like a partner share in it you know like and we start to build our products you know like initially a fund uh that invest in crypto assets that was one of the most profitable Fund in early days and there start to in general research and figure out what is the difference between Bitcoins and all other assets 90% of them Forks you know like just copies like Dogecoin you know like still exist like meme coins you know like and some of them were really Innovative like bit shares back then

like uh ethereum you know like that only started like her uh of course you know like for example Jay hate be shares you know like because of the delegation proof of stake but I mean all of these people try to in general reinvent or like invent something new and it was super inspiring you know like and so after after I join crypto you know like I didn't work even a day you know like it's my hobby it's super interesting and I always Tred to focus on this 1% of technology and I found out that I find out that it is so many clar people much clever than I am and you know like who doing so interesting stuff that's why I

started to invest money you know like in it so I bought my first Bitcoins in 2014 then bare Market started so I until 2016 it was a bare market so my money only like going down you know like during that time but I reinvested this assets to you know like initial I of uh ethereum then I met you guys Cosmos definity poka do some other projects that initially started and so you know like in 2018 I will try to be short you know like we close cyber fund and satosi fund you know like why because in general our partners make a decision you know like to to do own stuff and for example Dima is now like on Bali you know like and be building some Network

States small Network States projects so he bought a volano you know like an in general building own stuff uh and also like her deep dived in AI you know like Marina is building like e on salana so neon you know like and there one other guy you know like my good friend who was initial he just retired you know like and I start to keep building you know like and in 2018 when we made with you again you know like so I I started like a P2P you know like a company why because I want to keep this blockchain decentralized you know like sensorship resistant because if it will be run by 10 exchanges I mean it will be just a database and it means that we what we

all did you know like we just spent our time for nothing you know like if all this non blockchains will be non decentralized and in general you know like it start to be a pretty big company now you know like yeah P2P thator is as like uh corus and another one of the leading staking companies you know like and uh um yeah in 2020 as you know like we also like did uh spin-off of ligher you know like in in 2023 only we Rel launched cyber fund as an investment company so like to in general keep you know like contributing to the cybernetic economy to the economy uh that in general will be equal healthy accessible for each person on are that planet and

uh yeah I think you know like we still keep doing what we did in 2014 researching investing and building yeah I mean I think there's a lot of things we can go into more detail I mean one thing that stands out I mean you had the Cyber fund uh for a long time right or I mean existed even before you but and and so the and you mentioned cyber etic economy what does that mean yeah I mean in general it's a mem so uh but what does this mean you know like when we try in 2014 you know like when we we even I think wrote a small book you know like about that but we try to figure out you know like how the

future economy will work you know like with the new technologies with open source with a in general what open source sources show us it's not about capitalism you know like so when you open source your code you not maximize your return in general you maximize your return in game series when other people are contributing in our life and this type of activity is not clear and are how to say capitalistic and what we try to say that you know like uh we call it a meme because in generally What We believe We believe that it will be economy that it will be more efficient one day and uh it will be efficient because we will got we will have more that data we will have more computation

we will have ai we will have blockchains we will have open markets and in General we will have access to everyone like internet give access to everyone in Alex blockchain give access for example for financial products and more and then AI give access to intelligence you know like and you create a more efficient economy and we call it cybernetic economy in our first economy cybernetic economy report was about their in general blockchains but we also mentioned that we look on blockchains like uh artificial intelligence networks because you know like how you can kill Bitcoin or is a ethereum is a how to say organization can you stop it you know like or maybe it's new type of

artificial intelligence you know like that manage us as people you know like uh as an agents you know like and so we and we figure out that we call it cybernetic economy and we made the decision that we want to facilitate it in general our mission current mission of cber fund is accelerate this cybernetic economy what does it mean that I mean for example what we did with the serum when we found white paper we allocate our Capital to it you know like and now we allocating Capital to many others you know like companies like salana in early days like Celestia angular many others and in the same time and does it make economy better for Humanity and for people yes because now

everybody has access to coordinate Finance on top of sh Lair and have the same uh financial terms everyone on the planet so is it big impact yes I mean in general ethereum Foundation deliver it you know like and what but what was our next impact we built in general like initial version of lier liquid staking solution to keep ethereum decentralized and cens resistant for all this people you know like and I think that we want to do it again and again by allocating capital or by building our products in general help you know like in general I I believe that cybernetic

economy happened in any way so you know like with us not with us but what we want we just want to influence on probability one probability is that it will happen faster and another probability is that you know like uh that it will be more healthy for each person on the planet and yeah that is our mission and and our vision I mean you mentioned you have uh I mean think told me outside also you have like a you know retail business you started then you started p.org for example you started a whole bunch of like uh other projects how does that how do you go about it like how would you describe yourself as an

entrepreneur how do you how do you know like okay this is an idea I want to pursue and like what does it look like especially kind of like in the early stages as you get something off the ground yeah I think you know like first of all entrepreneurs are really important part of our society they take risk you know like an engine build something in my case you know like I think uh it's it's is in My DNA and maybe it is even my problem I'm a Serial entrepreneur you know like and uh uh I and I think that to be entrepreneur is really hard and that's why I really love every Builder you know like like for example you work in like in tender me

then corus and some something else you know like so in general it's take a lot of energy and you always feel you're not good that you don't deliver or like you are the worst person in the planet and uh uh I think that it's hard but I don't know by some reason you know like I I can in general I now I I I I only like building one more project but I don't want to build anything else in future why because first of all you canit your time second you take a lot of risk third one you are uh how to say uh I mean really like burn yourself you know like and uh I think you know like uh in my case you know like I in general couldn't stop

myself you know like when I launch pp. org or when I help for example some other people you know like to launch a new projects and I think that when you do when you're a venture investor you're much more happy person because you're always you know like successful you're always you know like can give a good advice you know like it's much better position you know like and it's much better for your you know like mine so I think later you know like and I also did a lot of investment more than 150 you know like and I and it's much in my particular view much more easy work and M much more about happiness because if you in general help some startup and they're successful so you're also successful as an investor you know like if they fail I mean you lose money it's

not a lot of pain but if you a builder each new project you know like it's like you are going on you know like Arena you know like in in general in public space and start to fighting you know like you can remember how we started validation you now like when we in general it was first Cosmos game of stakes you know like initially it was 100 different validators and then like it was C that's not exist yet already yeah Henrik a great guy and others you know like they all start fight with each other and try to show why they are better do some marketing and some other story and it first of all you know like I think I was super lucky because I have a good

partners you know like for example in 2020 vili joined my team and he in general did a big impact you know like on success of all these companies you know like and uh I think that yeah and for me you know like how it's happened so I think it's a lot of ideas I think that market is fully uh how to say like has a lot of space for new ideas you know like and for example you know like what Mark and recent tell that you know like everybody told that everybody in 2000 or 1990 for example when internet were just happened you know like everybody understood that uh like

everybody will need Zoom you know like or like Skype or something like video calls you know like and then you wait when their technology will enable you that that exist you know like that that can happen you know like and so and I think that it's always a lot of space what you can build and the question is why you building like this project not another and for me you know like it was different stor sometimes I just came from my values like in pp. org you know like I really understand that I want to understand blockchains better I didn't want to build a business and second I want to in general to invest better yes and second was that I want to I I wanted

to keep blockchains decentralized and cens resistant and that's why I launch b2. org then sometimes you know like for example when I contribute to for example launch of neutron you know like it was just a story that I mean this team lose current work you know like can I help them with idea that I would build you know like um because I think that Cosmos for example I system didn't have a own virtual machine and if Cosman Hub will have own virtual machine in general maybe it will find finder uh uh product Market Feit better than any now so it was like an experiment and just hell so you know like always is different and uh

I think that maybe I has an ambition to build some big projects with how to say millions of users you know like but from other side you know like I still thinking am I ready you know like am I ready to eat this glass you know like am I ready to fight again you know like should I do it you know like or I still more help Founders you know like to deliver this products so you know like you always and and I think you know like it's part of your D and there it's really you can from one side really has how to say to understand what you want and sometimes it just programming yourself so you've have you also have a lot of experience now as an entrepreneur

right having built a bunch of different uh projects in different Industries at different types of right centralized companies decentralized protocols what what are your biggest what are biggest lessons you learned and the biggest things you do differently today from you know 10 years ago or five years ago yeah it's a good question you know like I would say that I think every six months that I didn't know anything you know like six months before so maybe I I started super low from my management skills and others you know like but what you really should as if you just start your entrepreneurship you know like you should understand that I mean it's everybody do mistakes you know like and

everybody are you know like in learning curve you know like and it's no end to this learning curve and uh uh I think that what I really like when 10 years ago I have a super different Vision you know like and I even don't remember you know like what how I operate the company you know like and for example I didn't know how Pro product management work how project management work in general I thought okay project managers are not doesn't we don't need project managers because it's not fancy now like we need only product managers and and in general you learn that I mean first of all it is already some type of uh really like uh clear way how you can prade their

companies you know like but of course when you are trying to reimplement some of that in comp or not in the companies in D in generally you you know like do the same mistakes that's you know like previous you know like management uh experience already did and maybe like already fix it in best practices and so you make one interation and then you understand and your mistake then you make a second iteration you know like and you source and you fix some issues and then you do the S iteration the main goal is that each iteration should be better and you need to reflect you know like the mistakes and try to you know

like fix them and also what I got that different companies has different cultures you know like even in our group you know like of companies where I participating for example P2P ninon Li some other like projects you know like when you or Neil foundation for example you know like when you join our offsite or some event community and you know like you feel that the culture the spirit the people are really different you know like and I think that the most important things you know like you as entrepreneur is in general to bring right people you know like from one side has an idea of you know like and find a product Market Feit and not it's

impossible to buy it through the product manager or like through BD or other guys you need to do it by your hands and the second you need to Builder and find great people you know like that will help you to in general continue building like this forward and to to do it you need to inspire people you need to have a great vision a great Mission and in general set up you know like processes you know like how it will work but uh do I have a particular you know like so as I told you you know like it's a learning curve you know like and each six months in six months I will tell you maybe another story you know like what I

learned you mentioned you have to be like hands on or do it yourself like what are the things you feel like you you really have to do and where you have to be really involved versus things where you know it kind of like it works well to have other people handle them yeah you know like it's a really difficult balance between your delegation and your Hands-On you know like for example I really bad in delegation and I am really super handson and that's why for people it's really also difficult and also they do the same you know like for example when they manage their own team and then is such a big problem because if you don't delegate and you control you can scale

you know like and you can grow and I think that the right approach you know like to first of all I mean we we can look on our any like uh organization that it has a vision you know like and it's really difficult to delegate a vision you still can but you know like it's difficult to delegate the vision why because this it is sometimes the idea of your founding team you know like and then you have money you know like in general if it is organization then generate some you know like Revenue you know like I mean it should generate doesn't matter is it ethereum Bitcoin or any other I still think it should has a business model and generate some fees or like positive impact in this cybernetic

economy you know like and then you have like uh people you know like people who in general you know like are execute and building and in general contribute their time you know like the most biggest assets that they have to success of that you know like company or like organization and I think that what you can delegate you can delegate you know like money and like people but what you really difficult to delegate his a vision you know and uh uh that's why you are creating some type of uh like I mean documents or policies you know like for example Mission Vision and purpose

document that in general your long-term objectives how you see for example in 20 or 30 years you know like uh what we need to achieve and in general you know like from this Vision it's much more easy to build a strategy to understand what is the kpis some metrics you want to achieve to bring people and in general like deliver some success for organization you mentioned you kind of uh you're not good at delegation but I mean for example I think PDP or right you guys have a CEO now that's it's not you

anymore uh how do you like how is that work for you to kind of like hand over to go from being very handson project to having other people manage the the dayto day like has it been hard for you and like what have been have been your learnings in that process yeah great question yeah first of all Alex yes and who is in general like our coo for P2P is amazing guy you know like who joined us or CPO position he didn't know anything about crypto he's not Crypt native and but he has own talents you know like and I think that in ideal way you need to structure how

you give away a company you know like how you you know like uh uh have S you know like decided on key values of your company on Mission Vision and purpose you agree on this basic foundation and then you start to give away people you know like an team you know like to in general as as a business I I have a couple examples you know like how I uh give away you know like uh the company or the organization to C and uh sometimes you know like it's like swimming you just need to drop it and they need to swim you know like and find a way you know maybe it's not the

best one but still you know like you should give enough Authority and decision making and in general give all the things away to to to for people to start to operate uh and uh of course you need to support you know like and for example in cyber fund we build a team uh we call it strategy team who help and support you know like for example CEOs or organizational leaders on different levels for examp example for they can help to work with strategy or like with hiring or like with uh for example like some type of uh other things that Co need you know like and uh what what what

I think is important is important to build a foundation for the team to Hite people in the beginning you know like to have a strong you know like values and then you know like to find the right you know like and look on the test period you know like how uh herh performed you know like that you trust you know like like your baby because companies you know like like your baby uh that in general they will deliver the objectives you know like and be a little bit you know like even when you give a company to C or you have a different stages you have a hands on you still have a strategic uh guiding you have a hands off for example you know like it's different station and different your

engagement you know like in this stage and uh for me you know like it's like you push your baby out you know like and what from my experience it is a lot of things that are maybe even work better without me you know like uh because I think that I mean like when you give a company to in some level are people who are you know like are uh you know like who start to manage their in business you know like they have different skills and maybe they about execution or maybe they bet in B2B sales and they start in general build some pieces of the company that

you didn't think will be really valuable you know like from your vision initially maybe let's talk a little bit about Lio because I mean lier is like it's again like a different uh type of organization right as a centralized like a doll tell us a bit like what was sort of the the origin story of li like how did it come about and what was the early phase yeah I think I I think ran you also were part of that you know I know I know I I think any great project is started in telegram group as a telegram group you know like in generally we I came to wasil now like again and say

okay so we need to win game of stakes in the same time we need to be the the biggest validator in poka do and we also need to launch liquid staking to save you know like etherium from centralization and Vil said okay we can do only one and then we in general you know like took two main prizes in Game of stakes in Cosmos in the same time we took about 25% market share of staking in poot by some accident and we also came to all our friends and competitors you know like usually people are you know like has different how to say relationships with the competitors you know like but we came to all validators you like uh yeah I will even

start a little bit early you know like when we came to you you know like I think it was web3 conference and we tried to build a project called defy API you know like it was I don't remember 2018 or 2019 and nobody you know like nobody even know the word D5 back then you know like so I mean D5 wasn't popular and we came to you and said okay guys we in general want to build an aggregator of different validators like API that you can put inside of the wallet I I I think it was Cosmo station or something like that and we signed five validators I think it was your company it was cerus it was steak fish and it was maybe a couple others and in general it was not super successful you

know like product it's gate I don't know $10 and in general we had a revenue sharees that's why we pay you this $1 of Revenue and in general but what it's built in general it's built some relationships because we spoken with you guys with our competitors and also like friends we in general came with some idea we sign agreements and we deliver it you know like yeah it was not successful and then we came to you again in I think 2020 and said guys uh I mean in general Ser will be centralized uh all these exchanges they have a priority because the LTV lifetime value for the user is much higher so they earn more money than self-cast validators and we can do

anything of course it will be some solo sters but not a lot and it will be biggest changes that require users by just giving staking for free and it was a big opportunity for them I don't know why they didn't do it for free but uh uh yeah and uh we came to all I think five different validators and in general created a group and even had a call and Peach let in general build a dow put in the Dow 50% of the tokens and other 50% will give to people who are are in general split between us yes and in general will finance from the Dow this or you know like fees on like development of the product and as I

remember nobody supported this idea why some people thought about regulation some people thought about other problems you know like and in general nobody signed in in the this initial version of the Dow and then you know like I came to Vil and said we still need to build it because you know like e will be super centralized and we need to find resources and even so I will take all the risk in general like invest my own personal money you know like to build the initial version of ligher and uh uh doesn't matter we don't need investors let's build a product and uh in general we start to build product you know like so we find three different teams or uh I mean who develop smart contracts you

know like we wrote a spec with in general we have Vil has friends you know like who now like one of the core contributors and founding team of FL you know like uh you like Victor Sam and they wrote how in general you know like I describe how it can work you know like they wrote a speack you know like with what he what he reviewed and we settle how initial version of lier can work you know like and uh we came to to three development company and in general split the development of the solution because one of their issue was because you didn't have a way to hold uh ethereum stake from beon chain in smart contracts in

ethereum L1 so you need to develop some distributed custody it was not a lot of solution of distributed custody the project was super complex but we had our cryptographers in Neil team and in general NE Neil team contributed to some crypto Library and also we had our we also used some tendermint you know like maybe you even don't know about that so in general you know yeah so in general we use tendermint you know like in a way to split the the key to many parties and that nobody know the whole key and so we found 11 you know like uh contributors who in general joined initial setup team and it was for example Meek from like uh

from curve it was taus it was for example guys from Celestia Mustafa nobody know about Celestia back then and it was some other like 10 grade or 11 it was Rune from maker a lot a different other other 11 people in general they took this responsibility you know like and hold this you know like are distributed custody before we I mean the special feature will delivered in the city of mayet and in general you know like in 2020 the code happened you know like uh and the light D were deployed you know like it was initial validators five validators you know like I think all the

validators who didn't want to participate in the beginning joining you know like ligher when it was delivered as a product and it's great that you know like L of found a product Market fit now it I think it has more than two I I even don't know how many or validators are running through Li but it's more than 200 and it use different Technologies SSV obal you know like and uh and some other stuff and in general it's really contribute to ethereum you know like decentralization and I think you know like light is already delivered part of the mission it's still you know like big things on road map like dual governance and also like uh some other pieces like permission taking but

finally you know like what ligher was driving Li driving by Vision by Mission you know like and uh and also you know like it was driven by our early mistakes you know like if I told you you know like we run a fund and we were custody of this funds you know like we really feel pain and we really want to always build some products that is self custody that is decentralized and in general you know like uh that can work you know like uh without people and uh uh in general bring and deliver the mission and I think lider found the product Market fit and in general really adoption because it deliver the value to

the the as a middle rare to the users yeah absolutely I mean I think it's uh so probably like the largest doll in some ways I mean certainly in terms of like the the tvl in there and uh and I think it's cool that still there's like so much innovation happening in Lio and I think so many uh what do you think is I mean you mentioned dual governance or like what do you feel like are the biggest changes that you would like to see to Lio in the future yeah it's a good question are for me first of all I mean l driven by a mission and vision you know like and are

I think that from one side you know like this organization can try to build uh new products you know like for example like reaking you know like when it's happened but uh from other side you know like lider PR R permission is taking and dual governance why because I think that ethereum is a root chain of a digital world you know like and in generally you know like it's a big common good you know like for all people in the world and uh I think that we can't [ __ ] up on security here you know like and we can lose it it's a big chance for everyone

you know like to have ethereum to use ethereum and uh I think we are super lucky you know like and I think that what is ligher working uh I mean in general ligher is a middle rare smart contracts but it is a d and also like a contributors who get some uh like grants uh to deliver and in general contri contributors are working on I think that in general how it works you know like uh any person you or anyone who listens this podcast you know like once a year can send her like a a proposal it's called in general the framewor called Goose like and that collect you know like objectives you know like what live

they will do next year or next three years and then you know like it is a voting so Dow voting on this proposal you know like for example let's build restating or let's build like dual governance and keep on an eye on security or let's do permission is taken so anyone can make a proposal of strategy for example the last proposal was by hassu you know like and later during this year it was Regus in general a new proposal and uh in general it is objectives and main products are decided by voting of token holders and then this token holders they distribute grants to like development company and this development company are delivering

features and I think that the current uh proposal is about that we need to deliver dual governance why because it is a vector of attack that somebody can buy a lot of Li tokens you know like and try to still upgrade the smart contracts and still you know like is or you know like Pro it out and this is one of the vector of attack and it is a I think already Cote in on audits you know like and I think it's really important to uh to De to develop this feature and another is permissionless taking that in general you know like solar stakers can use is or you know like in ligher to in general uh run their all node with only for East you know like and I I think the

current Li the community of solar Stak is growing you know like this is a lot of application and it is a big demand on it and I think that Li is there I mean Mission driven organization with only like simple like mission to make to keep you know like ethereum uh secure decentralized and cens resistant and in general if you have any proposals you know like Ro ler can fund as a dow you know like to keep ethereum decentralized s censorship resistant and uh like are uh secure you know like you can in general propose it during the next application you know like our time you know like and propose you know like and

maybe Lia will add it to the if it will be voted it will be added and granted will be distributed to deliver it so you you also very involed in salana early on uh you know I think today we see a lot of attention on salana so they see a lot of attention on ethereum we see quite diverging Visions as well like what are your thoughts on um you know salana versus ethereum like their visions of scaling the future and yeah like which one are you where you bullish bearish and for what reasons yeah you know I'm first of all I'm bullish on both and for me uh I

initially you know like invested in ethereum then we invested in PKA Cosmos you know like and salana was one of the projects that we invested in the C stage and uh uh for us you know like why we did it in general we could in general stay in Bitcoin like a lot of Bitcoin maximalist you know like and just you know like believe that the gods are come on to solve all our issues you know like but this is a craziness you know like Bitcoin is a calculator or like it is a mcoin you know like I'm not big believer in Bitcoin I think it can change evolve if it will be a crisis and it is a lot of innovation you know like now in the work by like great teams like Al like

too Wizards and some others but uh still you know like current station of Bitcoin that it is a lot of maximalist and a lot of like beliefs it's like a religion more and for us you know like why we believe in CTIC economy and we believe in efficiency and efficiency created by economy and in general I mean we invested in E ethereum because we understood that it will be like how say micro economy where like different organizations applications in general will generate fees and um inside of the ethereum and uh uh but you know like it is a vision of our ethereum foundation

balic but and in general ethereum Community how ethereum should achieve it you know like is it a right Vision I don't know I think so yes and I in general believe I really love what ethereum is doing but uh it was different different time in ethereum uh history you know like and it was different speed of development you know like before we remember days when they didn't have a lot of for example progress because of the growth or like because of the funding issues or because some other issues you know like and I think that we invested in some other projects like PKA do and Cosmos that also contribute to how uh and salana and many others and how in general line

blockchain space looks like now they also did a lot of Innovations and in general they push ethereum to go faster because if you don't have a competitors if you don't have a you know like or you don't have a market this is one issue or you in general uh it's also bad for you because you are start to stagnate and you don't start to grow faster and I think that ethereum push salana forward salana P ethereum forward but who is the winner is a like people and know like that is important people good the best service the most secure service the most cheap service the most fast service you know like and uh this why you know like I bullish on both and it is a chance

that you know like computation will be a commodity in future maybe like it will be like a lot of cheap computations uh I don't know uh but uh I still think that any blockchain or any project should run not because it's mcoin or because it's money like we call it money and it's give you how to say valuation that is not baked by Revenue I think each project should be like uh really baked by real fees or by real economic captivity and uh for me you know like how the future will look like I don't know but what I really believe the best money will be the best uh

assets that generate the biggest amount of fees and will be the most stable one yeah I mean in terms of generating the biggest amount of fees it does seem like this ethereum road map is sort of like making it hard for that to happen know with with all of the activity happening going to layer tws layer 3 things like that I think first of all we need to make a calculation you know like you when we are working on it and second our equation is you know like it can be part of how say go to market when you put the fees down you know like and I think that we are now you know like uh today is there like September you know like

2024 and we are in a stage you know like where it is a new wave is coming and this new new wave is not coming like because of their only Global Market of course Global Market and they really impact crypto really much because crypto is a still risky asset but what is important and if recession will happen I think it will be super bad for crypto but what is important you know like all these uh things are in general we are on a new wave of the projects and what are these projects and why they will exist first of all because the fees on rollups going down and if the fees in ethereum going down it means

that we'll have more and more different type of applications that can find a product Market fit by using blockchains and it's super great the second we have Innovation like chain abstraction that in general you know like you know we have all this ideas in 20 I don't know 16 you know like that should be good you know like in general like in web 2 and it's only like happening you know like right now that we can build that right now this project like one balance like in finx and so on and I think that I mean what is important you know like current change of ethereum economy now like current price on da and gross of rollups this is enabler you know like to uh in general adopt you know like or

and in general grow and uh you know like and un Bo one billion more people and it's super great will it again start to burn ease we'll see so I I feel like one one thing is so you've been encrypted for a long time right so you have a lot of projects that you kind of invol involved in and that they take up a lot of like you know your attention and energy I'm curious like knowing everything you know today and with few skills today if you sort of you know if you had like a blank slate you didn't have to worry about PDP Lio cyber fund all of those what would where would you go where would you pay like what are

the sort of problems that you would want to spend your time on and research and maybe start start something in that area uh you know like I mean it's a lot of a lot of different spaces you know like from biotech uh that is in general will impact us pretty soon uh to AI to Cosmos you know like it's a lot of interesting areas I don't know what would I choose you know like and why uh I think that I really think about digital identity and in general how people will create their like how to say soul or their like uh new representation

in digital world that is a really like make me a lot of thoughts around that you know like and I really think that we didn't see uh yet you know like uh successful dig digital identity project so I think I would go in such space I I also like Orit Vision you know like uh about how you can keep your digital identity and data and how operation system can work in future so what I think is important that we are coming to like Singularity you know like and the question is what will be after and uh you know like and how to keep it really good for people and you know like for

everyone it doesn't matter where you born you know like I think 20 years ago it was much worther situation now you have internet you have a lot of online education and you are start to live better and better and better and what I really worry that it will regret by some reason that some people will have too much power you know like that is worry me more and what I really like want to achieve by like cyber fund by allocating you know like capital and also my time by building my products and in general like uh a way where each person on the planet will have the same you know like B in Bor the

same like terms you know like and in the same you know like opportunities so I know AI is also a focus for you guys at cyberfront and obviously it's sort of is the thing that a lot of people are you know deeply focused on I mean one of the things that's really like stood out to me or or one of the things things that's like striking about AI at least so far is that it seems to be like an incredibly centralizing technology you know where you have like a few companies that are able to pour like huge amounts of resources right like

many billions of dollars into you know training a particular model and you know it looks like the amount of money these companies are spending on these models also going up like very dramatically so go getting higher and higher and then have basically this like super intelligence which maybe will be owned by you know a few companies at least that is like one scenario that seems not unlikely if you just sort of look at the the current trends and and of course at the same time right in crypto and the the the core idea is around decentralizing ownership decentralizing power decentralizing control do you how do you think these

two uh forces will sort of what happens when they come together what happens when AI really breaks through it starts to influence everything and you know is is there how would that intersect with crypto yeah I agre you know like that the I start to be super dangerous you know like from way how is for really growing fast you know like and how much power it gives to people who in general can create this uh new type of models that will in general will recreate much how to say or in general be more in general can create this like artificial intelligence that is bigger than humans

you know like and um for me you know like I really don't believe in regulation you know like why because it's inefficient it's slow and it's impossible to regulate you know like uh current companies to not make uh you know like some type of uh uh some type of technology that will be super powerful and I I think that also like it looks like the competent understand that they can optimize algorithm they have data they can buy more energy and they can buy more computers like Google you know like in 1998 you know like they they already understand the secret

source of success and uh I think that but I really believe you know like like with blockchains you know like that maybe I am a dreamer and I'm definitely like an optimist and I really believe that new technologies in our will evolve that and in some way we will find the way how you know like to build um I mean a better model you know like that will be or regulated by technology or distributed and in general you know like controlled you know like and for me you know when I speak about blockchains I think what we shouldn't forget that what blockchain is about for example when you

look on bitcoin you can look what Bitcoin is doing it's doing regulation you know like in general Bitcoin introduce technology regulation they achieve the regulation how you can regulate the supply by technology by piece of code that distributed between people and uh I think uh you know like the new type of Regulation when we look on the centralized autonomous organization you can look on ligher that it's a piece of smart contract the middleware that in general you know like regulate the way how different engent work with each other and I really believe in technology regulations that's why we invested in metalx and Gabriel shapir you know him well you're my Synchro a great super great report

together long time ago and uh in general you know like Gabriel sa is one of the most Talent person you know like in Cryptor l space you know like that I know and uh uh and in general what he's doing he's building this BS in general how to Mar how to merge regulation that we have in blockchain that we can BU as a software with the current organizations and uh I really think that if and that is also part of the cybernetic economy that we call you know like it's in general when you build a process and this regulated not by bureaucracy or like by people or because the people should do like that but it's

when regulated by code and uh I think it will be a day when we we can in general regulate this models or like this power by some type of you know like regulation maybe on chain or like through blockchain and in general crypto EI is there how to say when we start to look by cyber font you know like in general we we had it in our initial tasis in 2014 you know like but we start to spend more time on it of course I mean and for us it's not shortterm our goal is to build a competence in next 10 years when you start to look in the ey and crypto Ai and uh AI so it is three markets you know like one is AI one is crypto in Ai

and one is AI in crypto and all of these markets has a big opportunity you know like of course aii is growing right now but uh we see how agents can use you know like from payments to like buying more uh execution and in general how you can build economy and I think that why you know like crypto in AI super closed is because it's also about me mechanism design you know like because what is a Cryptor and why it works because it's in general uh it's a mechanism that constructed by cryptography by code and some other things in coordination you

know like and the same when you Builder some ML and you know like AI it's also I think that when we will add some economy inside of AI you know like and make it more open I think we will see lot of benefits in that space too and uh I'm curious about the the AI in crypto bucket how do you think that will yeah uh uh in general you know like you speak AI in crypter first of all you know like uh I mean uh we have some for example when we look in uh why kryptor need AI you know like for example I mean

we invested in a project called fond you know like and they are building a model you know like especially for based and trained on crypto data you know like and so in general you can use AI in all like for example it's is a lot of I don't beig believer in it but of course we can really understand that it is there uh a lot of uh how to say a lot of trading is do through ml you know like and it is a lot of fun that use a m to do successful trading and we can say that you know like it will be like some AI models you know like that will in general generate you some strategies that can be used in Cryptor you know like and there also you

know like uh um in case of some type of you know like security you know like cyber security AI also can do some type of work around that so it's a lot of intersection you know like and it's a lot of projects that can be used and find a product Market fit you know like uh in this intersection and I you know like I think it's a lot of [ __ ] in he but uh it is I mean it's like in any technology that start found a product Market fit and I definitely found a product product Market fit we see that an Tropic you know like did a 1 million Revenue you know like uh this year that is a lot that's super fast and uh uh I

mean that it is a lot of really like things that AI is delivering different sector of technology and crypto will be one of them yeah absolutely for cyberfront uh aside from the crypto AI intersection are there other some other areas of crypto that you feel you know they need more attention and investment and there are areas that you know other people are neglecting yeah you know like what we do with cyber fund we try usually to invest super early you know like in New narratives for example how we invested in AIG like Cosmos or like Celestia or

salana or like agil you know like why because we found some type of narrative that can in general create more efficiency you know like on a market or like it's super differentiated for example ethereum is a super slow blockchain and salant is super fast you know like they have super different narratives and uh uh I mean for us you know like the same is in eii and crypto Ai and other areas what we try to find out we we try to find you know like the technology that first of all contribute to our vision of cybernetic economy you know like that make more equal people for All Humans you know like and in general that contribute to uh efficiency

and access and uh it can be and for example in crypto where super Believers Believers in chain abstructure right now why because it's so few a you know like and in general it's make your funnel better you can transact you know like and trade any assets to any assets you know like in one click and in general it's significant Improvement you know like to bring a lot of great new products you know like and uh I think that you know like then we look on computation you know like current computation are super expensive we are you know like our ethereum like is not super fast computer you know like and

the current comput computation expensive with rollups still expensive and we think that we will need one million more X computation you know like on chain or trustless and this is another field so it's a lot of for example identity I mean we need to find a way how we can in general keep our data private you know like and has a benefit from identity because who is have all benefits from your identity right now it's large corporation they start to use this identity they start to trade this identity you know like and uh I think if you're going to like this single sing

Singularity you know like I mean we need to find a way how not only survive but how to live well you know like how to live in the digital world you know like how to you know like get more people uh inside you know like and get that uh you know like uh uh get value from it and uh so yeah so in general we try to find this new narrative that's enable you know like the growth of the s economy that accelerated you know like uh and still not an a for example if it is a open AI that is a Clos s you know like that is not where we will allocate our

Capital definitely yeah cool well thank you so much for coming on Constantine it's it's been great to talk a little bit through your history and like reviews and your learnings I think you've had like such a tremendous impact on the blockchain space um and I mean I know many of you are many listeners I'm sure are aware of you but I'm sure equally many of you you know have have not heard about you and didn't know sort of like the influence and the role you've played So yeah thank you so much for coming on and and and thanks for all you've done it's it's been really great to to know you and to work together and I'm excited to I have no doubt that you know you'll continue to have a massive impact on crypto and

on this uh realizing the cybernetic economy mission in the next uh next decade that's ahead yeah thank you Brian very much you know like and I hope to keep building together more and more absolutely thanks so much Constantine