Jito's Impact on Solana with CEO Lucas Bruder

Transcript

[Music] bankless Nation welcome to this exploration of jeto jto is a salana validator client a staked Soul token called jto soul and an me optimization engine all built into a single software suite which we call goo recently the jto airdrop shook the entire crypto industry as $200 million worth of jto is distributed to over 10,000 addresses on salana and the salana ecosystem seems to have turned a new page ever since notably e on salana have started to emerge changing the game when it comes to salana economics and jeto has found itself right at the center of this conversation today on the show we have Lucas from the jeto team to walk us through the basics and the nuances of the jeto system how does it work how is

it similar to ethereum how is it different bankless Nation I've been doing some of my salana homework I think you're going to learn a ton about salana and jeto in this conversation as well as where salana is in its development Arc but first before we get into this conversation our friends and sponsors over at ire want you to check out their wallet but calling it a wallet really is under selling it you've heard Ryan and I talk about account abstraction and smart contract wallets for a while now the amb team is shipping that into reality with their amb V2 browser extension wallet it's a browser extension like you already know except instead of a vanilla wallet under the hood ire has a breakthrough first ofit kind account abstraction wallet AKA smart contract wallet under the hood so if you've

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governance right at the same time that jeto aird drops its governance token to govern over jeto to me the salana conversation is potentially at the beginning of a very interesting arc when it comes to salana economics and salana governance I think it's pretty easy to say today that salana has captured the attention and energy of these low-level systems engineers and system designers Hardware people and as a result has produced a very well engineered crypto system and with a launch of jeto and other developments salana is moving into needing new character archetypes to enter the scene there is an airdrop season happening on salana right now where salana apps are launching their governance tokens and the emergence of multiple salana clients will require

human meat space conversations to make non-breaking upgrades with each other in the ethereum world we have The ethereum Magicians forms and the allcore devs call in order to produce rough consensus as to how ethereum upgrades salana will also need to establish some sort of system and process to make this happen for itself salana is entering the very messy world of governance something that all successful layer ones must enter in order to truly maximize their decentralization and robustness this is a right of passage that very few layer ones ever get through Solana has gotten to that point and now it needs to get through that point and as a podcast Maxi myself I absolutely here to host these interesting and challenging

conversations and probably the best way that I can play any role at all in the growth of the salana project now that salana is entering conversations that I feel familiar with and so with that context and Preamble out of the way let's go ahead and get right into the episode with Lucas from jto but first a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible especially Kraken our preferred crypto exchange for 2023 and 2024 if you do not have an account with Kraken consider clicking the link in the show notes to getting started with Kraken today Kraken knows crypto kraken's been in the crypto game for over a decade and as one of the largest and most trusted exchanges in the industry Kraken is on the journey with all of us to see what crypto can be human history is a story

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get your journey started in one of the largest ethereum communities bankless Nation I'm super excited to introduce you to Lucas AKA buffalo on Twitter he is the co-founder and CEO of Goo Labs which recently had an airdrop inside of the salana ecosystem that more or less changed the game for the entire crypto landscape Lucas welcome to bankless hey thanks for having me excited to be here and talk more about jeta and salana yeah there's a a number of different ways that I think jeto nerd Snipes people one is from the me side of things one is from the salana latency Hardware networking side of things uh another one is just from the economics side of things and I think that's the way that I approach too is like the economics conversation but of course all of these

ven diagrams over overlap I think we're going to approach each one of these angles one by one here on the episode today but I kind of want to give a take and then a question about what I saw the jeto airdrop from the external perspective from the outside perspective because the jto airdrop seemed to be something larger than itself you know it was an airdrop for an app when we've seen these before but it wasn't really a typical airdrop it kind of represented something larger than just a drop for a salana app it really turned into a symbol for the salana community at large and there's this like before and after the jeto drop moment for salana and after jeto if we have before jeto and after jto after jeto is marked by a

large uptick in salana new addresses new like new highs and salana volume new tvls like a a showing of salana of fees and now there kind of seems to be a post moment for the posto drop that's at least how I interpret it from the external perspective I kind of just want to ask what was this moment like for you what was it like to be on the inside uh yeah it was super exciting very overwhelming um we didn't expect it to go this well I think you know it went much better than we could have ever anticipated I think there's a lot of people excited about participating in jto governance and there's a lot of other protocols that are looking to decentralize very soon on salana and so I think you know it got a lot of people

excited about salana there's a lot of good press there and now you have a lot of people coming over to salana from other ecosystems and uh you know interacting with a lot of the adaps on salana and really just realizing like how good of a network it is how fast it is how cheap it is and uh I just love to see people coming over and trying it out so one of the reasons I think why G the jto drop was so significant is because jeto isn't just an app on salon in the same way that Lio is not just an app on ethereum like these things relate to the protocols that they stand upon uh and so that's one of the reasons why I think this air drop Mark made up such a significant mark on the salon ecosystem and also the the broader ecosystem as

well so maybe maybe we can just start at the very beginning like what what is jeto and why is it so important for the salon ecosystem yeah so jto Labs builds infrastructure to efficiently extract me on salana um there's a lot of spam and Arbitrage transactions that are failing on salana and we kind of predicted this would happen back in 2021 and wanted to work on solving it so jeto Labs built a lot of me infrastructure created the jeto salana client which enables the efficient me extraction built the jeto block engine which is kind of like a block Builder equivalent uh you know like a beaver build or U RNC and stuff like that on ethereum to uh kind of

efficient extract me um and then also built a lot of systems to make sure that that me is distributed stakers I think that's super important um you know valids can choose how much they want to distribute to their stakers and also um contributor to jeto network which is a liquid staking protocol on salana so jeto network is you know operates the Jos Soul liquid staking token so the Jos Soul liquid staking token for the ethereum familiar people out there that's like the staked eth from Lio or the r eth from rocket pool but the interesting thing about jeto is that it's that is stacked upon a client and so in ethereum we have things like um

prism from Prismatic Labs we have Lighthouse Nimbus we have these different clients that run ethereum that uh run ethereum consensus and that is also what goo is jeto is also a client along with a staked Soul token called jto soul and then it's also this me extraction optimization engine so it's like these three core products all kind of stock stacked on top of each other right yeah so yeah anyone um it's a little the staking on salana is a little different than ethereum so anyone can run the jeto salana client um actually like currently today there's like 46% of salana stake running the client over 300

validators and roughly 14 billion doar of Soul stake to the client and Stak pool because salana is delegated St has delegated staking Stak pools can delegate to any validator that they want so there's there's validators in that are running jetto salana that don't have any jetto Soul stake and there's validators that do have jetto soul stake there's also I think every liquid staking token on salana delegates some percentage of their pool to the jeta salana client as well so it's really just like a open- source permissionless valid air client that anyone can run can you talk about just the synergies between this Tech stack because some parts of it just make a lot of elegant sense um there is like having a client

that also is meev optimized relating to a staked Soul token all of these things kind of make sense can you put these pieces together for us yeah I think there's uh I think there's definitely a lot of overlap I think uh liquid staking tokens are a really good opportunity to decentralized stake on salana that can be um you know Geographic decentralization client decentralization um and you know all the other um you know types of decentralization that exist um and so you know I think jeta Soul does pretty well at that you know helps kind of bootstrap the growth of the jto salon client and also it um can you know a lot of the the validators that jetos Soul

Stakes to in the Stak pool are sharing the me with stakers so there's like a a very you know up until a few weeks ago is is a very small amount of me but with the recent uptick in trading activity on salana that has massively increased I think the uh I was looking at the numbers earlier today and basically over 50% of all M extracted by the system has happened in the last two weeks and it's been live for a year now so there's been like a massive massive upt and trading uh there's a lot of improvements on the block engine that we can dive into later what can we stop and unpack why um the existence of a staked Soul token adds to the decentralization of salana can you

unpack that yeah so typically uh what what valid or what sakers will do is they will go to like their Phantom wallet or Soul flare or some other wallet on salana you know they they go through the validators they want to sake their soul they'll just choose one validator to stake that to and so um you know they're they're taking that to one validator it's not spread across network of validators um jetto Soul kind of improves that and basically when you deposit Soul into the uh stake P program that jetos Soul runs on there's an algorithm running that will kind of look at all the different validators that are available to delegate to and we'll delegate to those validators According

to some like performance and decentralization Metric so instead of your soul like if you have 100 Soul sticking it to one validator now you have 100 Soul you know there's 100 validators you know one Soul per validator and those validators are spread across the entire world so anywhere from like California New York Germany Tokyo Singapore um it's kind of spread all over the world so you know it increases the uh decentralization of the network from like a a geographic standpoint and then also um you know helps with some of the uptime um that you it it helps helps reduce uh it helps reduce the potential for like downtime

inv validators and losing staking rewards as well okay so if I just have soul in my Phantom wallet my solono wallet I could just delegate that soul to a single validator and then I would start to get some of the issuance of soul and some of the fees of of salana just because that's what that validator provides me which is which is a step towards decentralization it's better than just me having vanilla soul in my wallet and not using that at all um uh but what you're saying is that if you just simply have this jto system uh you can actually not really have to be locked into one single validator and instead the jeto system is a little bit again we're probably going to have to use a lot of ethereum metaphors here because that's what the bankless um bankless audience is familiar with in

the same way that if you buy uh Lio Stak eth you are actually spreading out your ether to like 32 uh node operators and eventually like that is destined to be according to the light of road map that's supposed to be permission so the same kind of way like rather than just picking one validator and having that be locked into that one validator and that one validator acrew a lot of soul jto spreads it out to many many many an open set of potential validators and it also solves a simultaneous problem of having um non-homogeneous Soul right and so if I stake to one validator my soul is stuck to that one validator but if I put my soul in jeto I get J's soul back in the same way I get

staked e back from from Lio and so it both spreads it out to many many validators and I get a token back in return that can go back into the salana defi ecosystem is this all correct yes correct and yeah the there's an algorithm that's currently running and that'll transition to staket which I think we'll dive into in a bit uh assuming that the goo governance wants to switch over to Stak net and basically that will allow the protocol to if it sees validator is performing poorly or maybe you have like validators that are moving around and there's too much stake in one region or something like that then you can start to move that Sak around so like as a you know if you want

to support the decentralization of salana and also have like a very high performing valider set that your soul stake to and the jeto Soul U steak pool kind of just takes care of a lot of that for you I think if we were talking about a standard staking pool system on salana everything that we've talked about thus far is more or less like table sticks like you have um a system for spreading out Souls so that no one validator is enshrined and you kind of load balance based on metrics to optimize for things this is all kind of like table stakes and we haven't actually yet added in the me uh component as well and I think that's really kind of the thing that um makes jeto go from table Stakes to something like unique and special to salana and so you you talked about it a

little bit Mev uh extraction optimization why is that important not just from like being a good product but being good for salana the ecosystem yeah so there's um you know we we ran some numbers like uh close to a year ago I think the numbers last I checked were pretty similar but um 98% of Arbitrage transactions on salana fail and there's roughly 56% of compute wasted executing these failed arbitrages so if you go into a salon of block Explorer and you like look at the transactions you'll see like all the deck and a ton of failures and so you know that's kind of that has a

downstream impact on users like if you want to interact with the chain and the blocks are consistently full and they're kind of just like spending time executing this entire transaction and then rolling back the state that's not really like the best in my opinion like not the best use of block space I think you know you want to see a high success rate of transactions and so the G the GTO Klein and the block engine kind of helps mitigate some of that and essentially you know a lot of these people that are spamming the arbitrages they are trying to um they're trying to order transactions so like you send a trade they'll kind of monitor it um you know see see if there's a u Arbitrage between two dexes and then they'll fire

off one or two or three trades that try to capture that Arbitrage and using the the jetto salonic client and the GTO block engine those Searchers can bundle those tra together so they actually execute back to back inside the block and it's actually uh if you if you know about proof of History you've heard about it it's actually uh right next to each other in the proof of History tick chain so it's literally like the fastest that you can capture it by the salana protocol rules it's just instantly captured so the goal there is you know we want to try to enable this like efficient ordering so that people aren't spamming and try to free up some of the block space and then also there's the validat and sacr economics as well can

we go into why there are is so much spam and so many fail transactions on salana and this is just a product of salana being such a high throughput low latency chain correct can you talk about why there is this incentive for Traders and arbitragers to send out so many transactions I think the one thing is that it's really cheap for transactions so I think it's like a hundredth of a penny per transaction um so there's not really like uh you know if someone has a failed transaction on salana it's not going to cost them a lot compared to ethereum where you know if you have a failed transaction then you might end up paying 3050 $100 whatever the gas price is

right $100 to like try and get like five dollar of Revenue so it really costs you to to make that failed transaction yeah that um also the you know that the price of the transactions is so low that there's just so many microscopic arbitrages available so the price of this as I mentioned earlier the price of a transaction is like a hundredth of a penny so basically if there's any profit over a hundredth of a penny available on salana and arbitrager is going to capture that so there's just a massive amount of Arbitrage transactions only the first one is going to succeed the rests are going to fail and so um you know I think that's that's a lot of the

reason why I think they're um there's some like more engineering related things as well like you know there's there's a lot of work going into theuer to make it have less Jitter and make it be more deterministic so when you set a priority fee it actually uh lands in the block where you expect it to I think another big thing that core engineers and like the fire dancer team and us and people on Twitter and a lot of people are talking about um some other type of you know you have the carrot you need the stick um so how do you kind of throttle those transactions uh you know probably through some Dynamic base fee I don't think copying EIP 1559 and copy pasting it on to salana is the same thing I

think there's unique things uh that there's Salon is uni a unique architecture so I think there's like some tweaks that you can make to EIP 1559 um and yeah I think that will be that's uh that's an area of research that I'm pretty excited about um and we're starting to see kind of more people think about that and work on that for for the reasoning behind why so many of these transactions are failing is it because I'm an Arbitrage uh arbitrager and I really just want my transaction in and because it's so low cost I'll send out 10,000 transactions and only one of them will work and then then 99,999 will will fail or is it that like there's so many deck Arbors out there

that you know there's 10,000 of them and everyone sending out one transaction and but only one of them gets it like what is the actual reason and then of course why are they failing well because these conflict after these transactions conflict with each other after one of them succeeds what is the actual reasoning as to why there's so many uh failed transactions yeah I think you hear both points there's a lot of arbitragers on salana I think there's a few hundred at this point or at least there's a few hundred uh signers um TBD on how many entities are like running those signers so there's a lot of arbitragers I think arbitragers will typically send their transaction more than once I wouldn't I wouldn't say as high as 10,000 times maybe like right you know single digit number of times and basically only the

first Arbitrage will win so you know you um and everyone everyone's seeing the the Arbitrage opportunity pop up at different times depending on you know your proximity to the leader that produced that Arbitrage uh Network propagation your own code speed so like you know one Searcher might see it uh 10 milliseconds after it happened another might see it 15 another might see it 20 another might see it like 200 milliseconds later and so you everyone's seeing it at different times everyone's firing off trades at different times there's different propagation latencies associated with all that and so you you know you'll you have the Arbitrage show up uh the first person will capture it and then you'll

see like a ton of failures um and then also going back to the point of like the the fees are so that there's so many microscopic arbitrages um last time I looked I think the the average profit on an Arbitrage was like a tenth of a penny so uh there's just like a ton of Super Micro arbitrages I think you know it it is a good thing I think the um it's a I think it's a good thing that there's so many microscopic arbitrages I think that it results in better prices you have all these Bots that are constantly rebalancing prices compared to ethereum where like you know you you basically you're going to Arbitrage if you can offset the price of gas so there's pools that sit around that could be Arbitrage

but the gas f price is too high on salana gas price is so low that you know there's ton of these arbitrages prices are in line um there's just that that issue of the failed transactions that I think um base fees and maybe some other protocol changes will help fix how does jeto Pro produce fewer fail transactions yeah so provide Searchers opportunity to bundle those transactions can't they just do that themselves can't they just bundle up a transaction and send it to them just to vanilla salana uh so the vanilla salana valir doesn't support bundles um another thing is that the yeah so the bundles are feature specific to the jto salana validator and

um so yeah another thing is that there's a uh there's like a very very short-lived mempool in the the block engine and basically this lets Searchers see these opportunities before they're going to happen they can simulate and predict what's going to happen and basically you know you send a trade they will kind of uh see that predict the Arbitrage and uh bundle the users trade and their Arbitrage send it to our system the G allows block engine will simulate it and basically choose the highest payer uh for the Arbitrage um I think you know there's we're also running in the block engine we're running a lot of different uh auctions

at the same time because you um if you've ever interacted with salana you probably see like if you go to the block Explorer you'll see all these accounts and you know for someone coming from ethereum you're like what the heck like what are all these accounts doing um so when you build a salana transaction you have to specify that account state that you're reading to or writing from up front so you'll say oh I want to like trade on uh like this orcam Market at this public key and you know here's my token account and that this is going to be written to this I'm only reading from and so on and so our block engine will actually like uh separate all these bundles and all these trades into different auctions based on the uh read

and write flags for each account so we can actually run an auction we're on ethereum you're kind of like auctioning off the entire block and your price that you pay is relative you know there's just a basically single auction running um in the the block engine we're actually like looking to see what's being read and written to and then you can kind of pull them apart into disjoint sets and then you can simulate all of them um so you're actually like the you know if there's a lot of me on like some Orca pool or like nfts and stuff like that it won't affect like radium or Phoenix um that's something we spent a lot of time engineering and working on on and I think it's it's been working pretty well yeah that seems like

a pretty big engineering lift let me try and um put that into ethereum word so that uh the ethereum people can uh interpret that for the people who aren't familiar with salana so salana has this you know local local fee markets right uh and this I think is uh down Downstream of that conversation so like if this was um in ethereum it would be something along the lines of uh an application or a transaction that is going to you know change some state of ethereum and that state is an Arbitrage transaction between Unis Swap and Sushi Swap and 0x for example or or like matcha the transaction itself would label in the front of the transaction I'm going to engage and change the state of Unis Swap and Susi Swap and zerox and

I'm only going to change the state of these uh contracts and things I'm not going to touch is like everything else you know like a maker Dow um open C I'm an only touching these three things that I've specified uh and then and then it unlocks those for uh for State changes and then you know then the computation happens because that leaves room for other transactions to talk to a and not have to be worried about any transaction that is arbing the you know the dexes for example and so what you're saying Lucas is that in the goo uh client when you guys are running these auctions you can actually create separate auctions for space in the Block in the salana block for high biders that are

segregated per activity uh and so there's probably some optimization some algorithm because there's going to be like some vend diagram of semi- overlapping transactions some are touching the same contracts some are not touching the same contracts and so it's a little bit of Tetris going on to make sure that you can create a very high value block with all these transactions but the point is that there's multiple auctions for multiple different slots depending on what that transaction is doing and then the goo what jto is is like an optimization for making sure that the highest value transactions get filtered up and allowed to be in the very first slot because that's what they're paying for uh and then it starts to like fill in from there but the cool thing is is that it gets to fill in

multiple places at the same time because if my transaction is touching Unis Swap and I really want to pay a very high price for that somebody else's transaction can are uh a and those two won't conflict to with each other they can both take the number one spot because they're only touching separate contracts did I expl explain all that correctly yeah that was perfect I couldn't have explained it any better um yeah I think you hit the nail on the head it's kind of like the uh yeah um uh yeah I think you you hit the nail on the head um it's kind of like the the parallel fee markets on salana basically kind of applying a similar Concept in the block engine um I think you know

getting into that a little bit more I think it it's maybe not even like the a contract it would be like Oh I'm going to touch this like specific pool in inside a or like if I'm talking to Unis swap it's like I'm only talking to like the like Stak eth usdc pool at this address and like um you know it's not the entire contract so like we can actually run you know Orca is a popular amm on salana uh we could basically run an auction in parallel for every single pool on Orca and as long as they're not sharing as long as there's not a overlap State there right and all the point of this is to say that once jto is done doing its work it's produced a the

highest value block possible that it could produce because it has it's like a pre-processing layer for salana right it almost is kind of like in a way I know the engineers of salana don't uh like my more imagination based metaphors but I'll try and do that anyways which is like Cheo is a little bit of a meol for salana and that it processes transactions and orders them in this nice orderly way before it actually like puts a block into the chain is that like a fair metaphor yeah for sure it's kind of like a it's like an optimization layer for validators to build more efficient blocks I think the the one thing is on ethereum with the PBS you have the builders are actually building the entire block and so you run into

some issues there like a lot of the um potential censorship issu where goo is um we're not actually building the entire block we're building pieces of it so it's kind of like uh I think in uh you know I think in Shrine PBS is looking at like partial block Building inside there so you can kind of think of it like that where we are so we're building like the the really profitable pieces of the block as efficiently as possible and then the validator software is handling the rest of the stuff and the reason why I want to spend so much time on this is a because it's interesting and we're worth noting but also B because it's like kind of the tip of the jeto stack like what what is jeto it is delegated staking uh it is a staked Soul token jeto soul but

it really again like the like I said the really the The Shining part of jeto is the me optimization and high value block building aspect of it can you talk about how that circuits back into the value of the jeto Soul token because to me like if my understanding of Jos correctly like jeto will live die by the value of Jos Soul right like that is like the the Pinnacle of the jto system Jos soul is supposed to be the most efficient uh sole asset to own natively on salana can you talk about can you just complete the circle for us how does all of the things we've talked about go into increasing the value of Jos Soul yeah so jetos soul is a reward bearing liquid staking token so on I think on ethereum like Lio there

it's a rebase so they will kind of credit you more um St E when you receive the rewards on salana all the liquid saking tokens are reward bearing so the price of jetto soul and liquid staking tokens as a whole go up relative to the price of Soul so you stick your soul into the Stak pool you get back jto soul that Soul represents the soul that you initially deposited plus acrude uh inflation and uh me Rewards so the goal is like you know any any stake pool can delegate to the jetto salon of out air cine the hope is that me becomes um a

main like uh Revenue driver for salana so that liquid staking tokens can start to realize some of the these rewards in the price of the liquid staking token relative to so so essentially has opportunity to um add more rewards to jto Soul and um You Know It ultimately impacts the API of liquid staking tokens on salana MH and people run the GTO client because it optimizes me extraction on their behalf right like and so I I have enough technicals chops to be able to like download a client and run it but I do not have enough technical chops to be able to run an meev bot like that's roughly about where my line is uh and and so like for me as

an individual if I could run a salana validator I could just run the goto client and I could like raise significantly the bar for me to be able to engage in me extraction maybe I'm not at the tiptop of the salon ecosystem but like it's a way higher than I would ever be as like a Semite technical individual and so that that's kind of the motivation and the and the democratizing access that goo has or democratizing power that jto has for the salon ecosystem correct so yeah we want to make sure that like every everyone can have opport an opportunity to do this and access to it clients open source it's permissionless uh anyone can connect to the block engine and start receiving these bundles and there's kind of this Marketplace of Searchers and

Traders that are available that we we kind of like jetto Labs will kind of handle that side and talk to Searchers and market makers and figure out you know what features do they want how can we make your transactions more successful just make it a better experience um so we kind of have this Marketplace that we built up over time with these Traders and market makers and you know valid can basically get access to that through the block engine so you know there's block engines all over the world right now there's four um there will likely be more next year that will kind of go into more decentralized parts of the world like Singapore and um you know other parts of Europe that don't have a lot of stake right now and the

goal is to basically give access to this to anyone so if you're a validator you don't really need to care about this stuff you can just run the jeta salon a client hook into the block and start receiving these profitable bundles and help make the network run more efficiently can we talk about the way that the economics of jeto impacts salana uh and so uh maybe we can start with um how much of the me is being able to be pocketed by Arbors versus how much of that me is getting sent into the jetto soul token so like what's that like Pi split there's a bunch of value being created here A bunch of value being divvied up how much goes into jeto soul and how much is left being pocketed

by arbitragers so yeah basically uh anyone can run the jeta salon of valid a client um the way it works is that um when there's a tip that's sent to the block engine uh we try to optimize the tip for a given set of uh state that is running the auction that tip will then get paid out to these programs um the program will kind of split the the fee there so right now GTO Labs takes 5% % that's to cover infrastructure and Engineering cost um you know to be transparent it's not really close to that right now uh but uh you know we're we're betting on more we're betting on more trading activity coming to salana and things

getting more efficient um so goow will take 5% the other 95% goes to a uh what we call Tip distribution account and essentially uh the tips will aggregate there for an entire Epoch you can think of it like a validators meev piggy bank so uh for the epoch the me is accumulating in this piggy bank which is unique to that validator for that Epoch and essentially what happens is at the end of the epoch there is a process that runs offchain which will uh distribute it'll calculate a Merkel tree and a Merkel rout basically it does an me air drop so the airdrop uh the Merkel route will get uploaded to this account and

then there's a bunch of transactions sent out uh right now it's around 400,000 trans actions every two or 3 days that gets sent out and pays out the me to the validator and then all of these stake accounts on the validator so validators can set their own commission rate um I think if you go to uh there's a there's a retool dashboard I can share after but it will show all of the validators running the client and their meev commission rate and so uh you know the the merel rout contains the information to kind of break that piece off that goes to the validator the rest of it goes to the stake account um for liquid staking tokens that are delegating to these validators um the liquid stake the stake pool has it manages a bunch of stake

accounts so what happens is the pool has uh you know there's the pool and then there's like 100 or more stake accounts that are sitting on these validators so in the last step I was describing where the me is distribute to the stake accounts there is basically uh the stake pool will receive the meev and that stake account and that's prata to its uh share of stake on that validator and so the me gets sent there um s a soul and then the pool can basically collect that and restake it and then um you know it kind of compounds that and then the um the me that goes there the the Stak

pools have a what they call an Epoch fee and this is basically a fee that goes to the treasury so if you go to gov. j. Network there's a fee account that has jto soul in it and that's basically uh 4% of inflation and me rewards so that's kind of how you know that that's a super high Lev picture and then how it flows back to the treasury and then it also gets autoc compounded back into the protocol as well okay so that was four 5% to jeto Labs 4% to the jeto treasury and those two numbers are correct yeah so the 4% to the goto treasury is just the the the uh the 5%

to jto Labs is on all me and then the 4% to the treasury is just on the soul that the jetto soul Stak pool manages that portion of me understood okay and then the the large majority is just sent to either the jto soul or Val validators who run the GTO client correct uh so majority I guess majority of it gets sent to the validators the stake accounts on the validator and uh if the GS stake pool is staking to that validator then it will receive it in that stake account which basically funnels back up into the pool so okay um it's not like I guess to the

GTO Soul protocol is not uh like today it's not earning like an un fair amount of me compared to everyone else it's basically equalized between everyone okay so with the jeto client and the me optimization and building the block how so I guess the question I really want to know is what is the value capture difference between just like staking and de or delegated staking your soul to a validator versus holding jeto Soul because Jos Soul captures some of the me correct so like how how much I guess is it more advantageous to hold jto soul and how much more value do you acre doing that versus just holding um normally staked Soul so yeah I think the

the yield is pretty similar between the two so if you go to like salana Compass or something like that the yield is currently roughly around you know 6.8 6.9% pretty similar to staking to normal validators I think normal valids are maybe a little bit higher because there's not the 4% fee but um you get some benefits as well to liquid staking so you know you can um similar to like if you if you run your own valid a on ethereum you might earn a little bit more yield but you're kind of there's downsides to that so with jetto soul you know you have a liquidity and um you know you don't have to worry about the downtime and all that okay so you you actually make less money holding jto

soulb due to the 4% fee that you talked about earlier uh than you would if you had just staked your salon directly to a validator but then the nice thing is is that you can go and use your jto soul inside of jto uh inside of salon and defi which you know if you can somehow find a way to get more than 4% value out of that then all of a sudden you're in the green correct correct yeah there's a lot of exciting opportunities going on in Salon Defi and um you know not Financial advice but there's certainly ways to um use that jetto soul and other liquid staking tokens to um kind of get higher yield okay and since the goo drop like I kind of said at the beginning the

activity in salana has just jumped in a very very big way and fees on salana have started to actually you know show up does that impact the economics of jeto Soul or is there kind of like a wall where that that doesn't really those the fees and me opportunities on salet do those permeate into Jos Soul very much uh yeah we're definitely seeing the beginning of it I think it's kind of the first inning um so yeah the the me system has made I think 50 or over 50% of all fees and me have been made in the last two weeks compared to the ye the previous year so there's definitely been there's been a

lot more trading activity um I think the interesting thing is that um the the priority fee on salana that has provided pretty good uh economics for validators but the priority fee isn't actually passed on to stakers and so stakers never see if without jeta they're you know the validators earning those priority fees um those priority fees can be significant it's pretty volatile depending on the trading activity and what Bots are doing with the me you're actually the stakers are actually able to receive some of the me so I think we're we're kind of in the first inning um I don't I don't feel comfortable saying like what type of boost it will

provide to yield um I think there's there's a lot that can change but I do think that um you know that potential is there in the future right I guess yeah it's I'm guess I'm wrapping my head around the fact that just these economics between ethereum and Sal and Salon are just fundamentally different at the transaction level because uh you know ethereum is all about passing um value down to eth stakers because it is like the widest largest most accessible and most decentralized part of the ethereum blockchain transaction supply chain so if you can like prevent meev Arbors if the gas that they pay gets past uh if the Searchers uh bid into the block Builders who bid into the stakers

well then the stakers are ultimately the people that get it and so when there's more gas fees stakers get more healed uh but it sounds like that's just not the pattern that exists in salana yeah so there's um I guess there's a few ways that it passes on to ethereum stakers uh correct my wrong here it's been a while since I looked at the E uh economics in detail um but you know there's there's EIP 1559 and that burns the the base fee it's Dynamic based on usage right and that that goes to everyone not just stakers that goes to just eth as an asset and then you have the um I think they they call them the priority is it the priority fee or the tip um yeah

there's um the tip so yeah the tip um um goes to the stakers or basically the the stake on that validator um so yeah it's a little different on salana that the base fee 50% of it gets burned 50% goes to the validator operator uh they're they're static on salana um at 5,000 lamp ports and then there's the priority fee as well which 50% of that gets burned um and 50% goes to the validator operator oh okay so wait so is there really any difference between the economics of a base fee versus a economics of a priority fee on salana other than like one is required and the other one is

just gets you higher in the list uh today no um I think they I think that needs to change um you I think the the fact that the priority fee is burned I think is uh one of the shortcomings in the protocol but I think you know that's pretty easy to fix I think priority fees have the in incentive to um they they can potentially incentivize like out of band payment and you know if I'm a validator uh Hey I want you to pay me you can pay me through this system where I don't get I only get 50% of it or you can pay me through this other system where I get 100% of it you know which

one are you going to choose um and so I think you know priority fee I imagine um I don't want to speak for the the core Engineers or the foundation or anything but I think that will probably get changed uh pretty soon here to where the validator keeps 100% of the priority fee well to me that is exciting because like I said at the start of this episode I think the economics question the economics conversation of jto is the most interesting one uh and I think the most interesting thing about ethereum was the Arc of its economics over time like I got into ethereum when the economic the monetary policy was five ether was issued per block and that was it and then we got to watch watch it go down to three and then we watched it go

down to two and then we saw EIP 1559 become merged and then we saw proof of stake happen and it was like one of the most fascinating stories that I think was H just ever to like unfold in the crypto space and so if you're telling me that there is like a bunch of conversations about the future economics of soul I certainly think that that's a pretty fascinating conversation um where where do those conversations get held what are the state of these conversations if if people like me are interested in following along with those conversations like where what I tap into it in order to do that yeah there's a lot of the a lot of the conversations are happening in Discord in the um there's a salon of tech Discord um there's some happening in telegram it's kind of um it's decentralized pretty decentralized right now so there's a lot

of conversations happening in a lot of different places I think ultimately um people are trying to kind of get back to the Forum as like a single place to discuss these ideas um so you're seeing I think we'll start to see that happen pretty soon as the these like ideas materialize into more concrete ideas and implementations um another place that you're seeing these happen is um there's a um there's a simd repo it's a salana Improvement proposal or Salon Improvement document um repository and you're starting to see some you know it's that's kind of the place for these like large protocol changes that need to be coordinated between a lot of

different Stak holders we're starting to see more conversation happen there um so there's uh if you look up the salana um PR P aw in the the simd repo there's a ton of discussion in there it's kind of a alternative path to some type of dynamic fees um to to charge uh users and Bots um so there's yeah there's some conversation happening there um but yeah no I think I think there's you know no system's perfect in its economics uh at least at the beginning and I think there's there's a ton of flexibility in the salana

protocol you know we were talking about the the different accounts that you have to specify up front that you're going to modify and you can run a lot of these transactions in parallel so you know there's potentially um some ideas are to run like an EIP type mechanism on each account maybe you run it per program um there's a lot flexibility going to be yeah yeah um so there's going to be a there's going to be a large opportunity to um like figure this out and I think you know it's it's going to be like hurting cats for a little bit but I'm pretty confident the the community is open to change and I think salana one of its strengths is um taking feedback and

implementing it pretty fast and I think we'll see that happen hopefully in 2024 are you launching a token is it already live how are you managing the legal and tax for providing token awards for your team toku simplifies everything about managing token Grant compensation and you can get started with them for free you'll have access to topnotch Legal end tax support to handle the distribution and management of tokens for your team toku caters to every step in the process from userfriendly legal templates for granting tokens to tracking vesting periods and calculating withholding taxes toku understands every Grant structure token purchase agreements restricted token Awards restricted token units token options and all the other ones toku is already simplifying this

today for leading companies like protocol Labs dydx Foundation Mina foundation and many more you can learn more about how toku can help you streamline your token management and get started for free visit toku at tok.com banlist or click the link in the description below cell is the mobile first evm compatible carbon negative blockchain built for the real world and now something big is happening introducing the cell layer 2 it's a game-changing proposal that's going to bring cell's rapidly growing ecosystem home to ethereum vitalic has shared its excitement for the cello layer 2 on the cell Forum so has Ben Jones from optimism but why the cell layer 2 will bring huge advantages like a decentralized sequencer offchain data availability and one block finality what does all that mean Rock Solid security a

trustless bridge to ethereum and more real world use cases for ethereum without compromise and Real World Adoption is happening active addresses on cell have grown over 500% in the last 6 months with the cell layer 2 gas fees will stay low you can even pay for gas using erc20 tokens but cell is a community governed protocol this means that cell needs you to weigh in and make your voice heard join the conversation in the cell Forum follow sorg on Twitter and visit c.org to shape the future of ethereum I think with that bit of conversation right there you we start to open up the rabbit hole of salana governance because now salana governance is a conversation because there's newer clients of salana and when there are multiple clients of Sal all of a sudden

what salana is is no longer determined by one single client hence because there's multiple of them and so who says what Solana is is now a governance conversation uh but I want to leave that at the very end of this podcast in order to get there I actually want to talk about the decentralization of jeto because that is a microcosm of the decentralization and governance of salana so we'll have to start with with jeto first what is the long-term plan for the G decentralization of Goo yeah so the the J Foundation just released the governance token jto uh allows the token holders to participate in governance and the uh jeta Network as we've kind of gone over there's has its

hands in a lot of things and you know I'm like pretty excited to see people participate in governance here um right now it's the governance controls the Stak pool so there's some fees Associated that governance can vote in you know maybe governance wants to drop fees maybe they want to lower fees um you know you can put these proposals up at forum. gto. Network and you know get some input there um there's uh 240 million uh jto tokens that to uh governance can controls so that can be used uh in you know any way that token holders please and uh there's a few other parameters as well um I think you

know we probably getting uh probably saying a lot about stakenet as well staket will be the way that um assuming that governance uh votes it in will be the way that the jeto soul Sak pool runs and there's some parameters in there that um because it's an open source delegation strategy token holders can actually change the way that um the stake pool runs and it all happens on chain an open source let's let's unpack staket really quick an open source delegation strategy what is that and why is that important infrastructure for jeto yeah I think it will be like the most uh assuming that the the jeto token holders and governance vote to kind of

transfer the the running of GTO Soul Stak pool to staket um I think it will be the most decentralized stake pool in existence um basically what what stakenet is is an open- Source delegation strategy that runs on salana and so basically anyone can contribute to running the stake pool um if it's um if it delegates that authority to staket so um I think today um or the data filming we just open sourced a piece of staket which is the the first component is the valid air history program basically um the validat

history program is using uh salana as a database for validator performance metrics which I don't think has ever been done before so basically you can see how well EV Valor is voting their history of commission you can see like when they're changing their commission rates how well they voted in the past um you can see what version of client they're running you can see the client type so you could see like salana labs jeta salana when fired danc is out or the zig client that will be stored in there as well and um there's 512 epochs worth of data which is several years of data this data started getting collected on September so there's actually like a few months of

data in there already and so um you know this is one piece of the program there's a lot of other features that I look forward to contributors contributing to like block production quality um there's this big issue or like challenge of how do you figure out where valid a is located in the world um and yeah there's a bunch of other cool things I'm sure people will come up with to add to staket and basically this is like the source of Truth for all validators on salana and then there's going to be another program which will be released uh in the in the near future and basically it will reference that data to operate the Stak pool so all of the delegation logic and parameters for

controlling steak pools will live on salana so basically you can write math it's like hey I want to look back six months how did this validator do um how did how did do compare it to everyone else so you know you can score all these validators on chain and then you can write the logic to basically say oh like I have this stake delegated this validator and this one delegated to this validator you know this this one's doing better so staket can basically take the stake off that valid and move it to a different one um you can expand the size of the Stak pool um I I think you know the the possibilities are kind of endless but I think the main goal is like putting all the delegation logic onto salana using salana as this like

database for valid history and essentially yeah just putting all the logic on chains so that jetos soul and other steak pools if they adopt it can live forever the way I kind of see staket from what what you described is kind of like um a the brain of jeto uh where you're you're since Sal is a a you know a system that you can put data on you're taking all the data about the state or health of salana validators that are part of the jeto system and putting that on chain so that staket can consume that data evaluate the goo validators and then load balance or you know determine who gets what stake as determined by the stake net algorithm um

Ur is a system in defi in ethereum defi that optimizes for yield with different strategies and it kind of sounds like that's kind of similar it can be kind of similar where we can like load up a algorithm load up some strategy into staket that load balances across all jeto validators into an optimized fashion and what does it mean to be optimized well that's up for jeto governance to determine is that a fair way to articulate this that's perfect way to articulate it um a lot of the basically all the data that stakna uses except for like one uh I think there's one piece that is n available on chain um all of it is copied from uh backing up I guess the um a lot of the data that

we're referencing is in what's called a vote account and a vote account uh lives on chain if you remember you know there's been some uh Stupid fun in the past from like the salon and non-vote versus voting transactions you know people are saying a lot of transactions are vote transactions well yeah vote transa votes are transactions and the state of how Ella validat voting is actually stored on chain and those transactions reference that so what stut is doing is basically um there's a there's Keepers that anyone can run and when you uh when you crank this program it will basically copy the vote account into staket and so staket is basically checkpointing this data periodically and

storing historical analysis of it so it's not like there's like a centralized party that's like need to like trust to like upload this data it's like this is actually like you can look at the code it's all open source it's copying this data on chain there's a few things that aren't available on chain and for that we're actually using uh data available in Gossip so all the salon of nodes are gossiping with each other they're not actually transactions they're just kind of like packets and in order to gossip those transactions it's uh every validator is signing the transaction with their key and basically you you know you can say oh Lucas's node said that their IP is this or they're running this version and we're actually taking that gossip data and uploading it on

chain and signature verifying it on chain so all the data in stakenet is um it's either signature verified or it's copied from the actual voting accounts on chain so it's very like high quality trusted data and yeah uh basically like um if like the goto token holders want to adopt Stak net they can and all those data available on chain so I think you know my personal opinion and like vision for this is like people start to like explore this data more and they look at the you know there there would be like current like V1 delegation strategy where it's like okay this is kind of like a first pass at what this looks like it's very simple reliable will work

but there's going to be opportunities to tweak that and all that data is available on chain so I think this is going to kind of encourage people to get more involved in governance take a look at this data there's probably going to be some like data science people that are like looking at all this data and being like Oh what if you know what if we tweak the algorithm a little bit this much we can you know expect jeta Soul API to increase this much or you know what if we look at the locations of all these validators and um you know tweak tweak the locations of all of them to kind of spread it out so I think it it just opens up a lot more possibilities and a lot more people to get involved in the operation and governance of the jeto Soul Stak pool and the reason why we

like this product this uh component of the jetto system staket is that because it we prefer things to be governed by code uh and so we have this like code this Open Source Code system to be a manager of the jto tech stack and the only way that humans get involved is when like somebody's writing an alternative version of the code and then they show everyone else in the GTO ecosystem like yo guys look at this code that I wrote it's better than the one that we currently have I propose that we merge it and that is the new code that governs but ultimately it's code that governs and humans only update things when they decide that they have better code for sure yeah I think that's super important um because all staket lives on chain I think you can have staket

interact directly with governance so you can build your own governance platform or potentially have a reference Realms and actually have it uh be the Stak pool can be direct directly controlled by governance all on chain uh minimal human coordination there I think that's like a really cool idea um so yeah I'm super excited about it would you say that that's the main governance um lever or vector inside of the jto system or just or is that just a pretty big part of it but there's other things that are relevant to jeto governance as well that we need to discuss um I think that that will be a main piece of governance

moving into 2024 I think there is some more flexibility with Stak pool fees um so token holders can kind of look and do more fee math if they want to and um you know figure out how if the if the fees need to go up or down um I think there's also you know the the 240 million jeto tokens that the if you go to gov. j. Network you can see those they're in the treasury they're controlled directly directly by token holders so token holders can kind of find creative use cases for those tokens put up proposals get them to pass and kind of uh take the take the control of jeta network into their own hands all right and now jeto

is a part of salana governance at large so there's jeto governance governing jeto but then there's jeto that has its share of salana governance Lucas can you talk about just like why salana needs governance and where salana is in it's like Arc of its own internal governance conversations what what for somebody who's not to toally familiar with the state of things like where what should people know yeah I think like up until this point I think there's been a few parties involved with governance on salana and um you know similar to a theorum you kind of have um I don't think as far as I know there hasn't been

any like ethereum uh votes there's kind of like the like soft governance going on where you know they have cord devs and the client teams and you know you have the Stak pools are kind of involved um maybe not directly so much yet uh maybe in the future there's basically there's a ton of stakeholders involved I think on salana that's starting to grow or you're starting to see more stakeholders get involved so um you know I think it'll play out pretty similar I think it's probably in like the second inning of of getting to uh more decentralized governance right now so I think you know that I think the community is starting to take more control I think the client teams are starting to get more involved

um like jto labs and fired answerer team um there's been kind of uh some of the independent valers are starting to push for governance more um there's actually a vote on salana in October and then um I think you might have been there but there was the uh at breakpoint there was a Community Conference that was held um that was kind of talking about governance so I think like there's definitely a lot of room for improvement there um we're definitely starting to see more uh progress on that front and I think that will continue to develop into 2024 and Beyond yeah I I was at that one panel about salana governance uh in at

breakpoint and it it seemed just pretty obvious to me that uh these conversations people weren't used to having these conversations and they didn't know how to think about these conversations uh and so like it's just I think the salonic community at large like learning about um a vector of what these cryptoeconomic systems are uh that it's kind of like ignored for a while because like Salon there's like all the hardware Engineers all the lowlevel uh lowlevel Engineers the uh and so like these governance conversations are like these new things that everyone's kind of like what what is these what are these conversations what do we do with these conversations and so kind of seems like everyone's kind of kind of figuring it out as they go is that kind of the vibe yeah I think there's there's definitely

I think it's it's still pretty early in Salon governance I think um there's a lot of opportunities to learn from other ecosystems here on what has worked and what hasn't worked um there's a lot of governance experiments going on and then there's some some uh you know pretty long running governance procedures on things like uh ethereum and cos most um or lack of governance in some cases and so I think hopefully uh you know the salonic community can kind of like use those as case studies um you know when you if you take like a business class or something there's like all those those case study documents that you read it's like oh this is what this is why this business

succeeded or failed and you know here's some key learnings there I think that's super important I don't think um there's no need to like invent the um reinvent the wheel here but I think that there is like you know there's a lot of experiments that have kind of run or a lack of experience experiments that have happened um and you can kind of see what happens there and I think that um I'm hoping the salonic community and the stakeholders involved will kind of look at that as a reference well Lucas I I've learned a lot in this episode so thanks for for coming on bankless and teaching me and a lot of the listeners all about jeto and salana just like zooming all the way back out I think most people ask these questions at the very beginning

but I like to ask them at the very end um what got you started with jeto and of all of the ecosystems that you could spend your time on like you could have been on in ethereum you could have been in ethereum ler 2os you could have been on Avalanche you could have been on Cosmos but you chose to build jeto on salana why I really resonated with Anatoli and the team's Vision on salana um I come from a computer engineering and firmware background so working in like pretty lowle C C++ code on like very resource constrained devices I love making code run faster I love making code use less resources it's like what I went to school for I did that for

several years and worked in robotics before working at jeto and I think that um this like high performance State machine and trying to use memory and the resources available the most efficiently as possible really resonated with me and and um I dove into my first foray into Solana was the I think it the March 2021 hackathon and uh built a project there and really just kind of like I did me on ethereum before starting goo and that was kind of my first like introduction into programming um and interfacing with chains learned a ton there and then switching over to salana it was pretty

rough at first there wasn't that much documentation but I really just like fell with the process of like you know they used to call it chewing glass I think they kind of moved away from that at this point but uh the chewing glass meme used to be real thing and I love that and uh you know just kind of interacting with the chain from like a programming standpoint it was just super cool um so yeah pretty excited to see the like salonic Community lean into that I think you know they're really like diving head first into that high performance efficiency with fired dancer I think you know super excited to see how that pans out in 2024 and Beyond do you have any perspectives as to what the ethereum community or outside of salana

communities or I don't know the eth Maxi podcasters what they don't understand about salana or what they misrepresent about salana the most I think the The centralization Narrative of salana um I think that's massively overblown um I think the the there's like thousands of validators running on salana all across the world and so I think from like a server and like geopolitical and geographical standpoint the network is extremely decentralized um I think that uh my personal opinion is that like running nodes at home is a little overrated um I think that running data centers is

probably fine as long as they're kind of like spread throughout the world um you know maybe with fire dancer and more efficiencies in the protocol you will be able to run Salon not at home but I think more importantly like this like Ultra fast super Fair super cheap State machine is like the most important goal here to like really unlock uh access to the these uh this technology and these services to anyone and so I think that's um that's those are some things I think um maybe there's like some disagreements there with the ethereum community from Salon of people sure um interestingly enough I'm actually about to have anatol on the podcast later today in about an hour

actually and I'm going to ask him the same question uh but I'll I'll ask it to you as well but it'll be a question in the form of a monologue if you will so spare me um uh Nick Carter Once Upon a Time on an episode I was listening to on his podcast uh if this was right after ofac banned tornado cash uh and Nick Carter is a famous bitcoiner uh and he said a line that kind of stuck with me is that like this kind of shows that ethereum is actually the spearhead of the crypto movement in and trumping Bitcoin because Bitcoin didn't really have this it didn't offend the nation state in this way because um it's you can't do tornado cash on bitcoin and if and if ethereum is pushing up against

like the treasury and finsen and all of these things it kind of is proof that ethereum is doing something right because it is it has teeth right it has claws uh and then after as a result of that ofac um Banning of tornado cach addresses there was a big movement inside of the ethereum blockchain supply chain when it comes to censoring uh tornado cash transactions and then like websites like meat uh.com I think uh spun up and you could see like the red and the green of the blocks that were being proposed that were Banning ofac transactions or weren't and for a while the number of censoring blocks crept up to like 80 to 85% and then it's been

down only ever since it's somewhere around like 33% now um and I think that conversation has spawned a lot of that is one of the most impactful things that's happened in crypto to this day because it's really about like oh crypto is getting so large that it's going up against the largest powers that exist and I think when we can go back and forth about how decentralized salana is but I don't think I think the real test will be like does salana produce something that offends the state to that level of degree and I think using that as an acid test is like well it's great if we have geographically distributed Salon validators uh but what happens when some tornado cach alternative it look alike um is built on salana and the

salana ecosystem has the massive amounts of success that all the salana community wants for it and if it does have that success it will attract the Lazarus group it will attract hacks it will attract North Korea playing around trying to do the things they've been doing on ethereum for the last four years uh and so I think my question to you is do you think the salana community the salana tech stack is ready for that um I think it is I think there's um there's a lot of uh there's a lot of validators that are outside of the US and so you know they validators can kind of make their own choices you know people have different opinions on whether they

should respect the the rules of the US government or not based on if they're in the US or not or other personal beliefs and you know people can have that I think that there's enough stake outside of the US to where if it was an issue then people might have a little more flexibility um I think a lot of this also resol revolves around the way that PBS has kind of shaped up especially with me and you kind of got around to this in the me transaction supply chain uh this is actually one of the major major like learnings that we had and I think maybe like I don't know if like flash spots predicted this or not but it's been a really good learning experience and the way that our system works in the architecture and because

we're actually building partial blocks on goto um the the goto block engine doesn't have the same issue um and it's kind of up to validators if they want to make that decision or not um so I think from that angle that was like a pretty pretty powerful learning experience I think you know outside of that I think it will definitely stress the network I think anything of that magnitude ultimately you want to be a super successful Network and like you said like or uh what Nick said it's like at a certain point you can become so successful that you start attracting attention from the government and so that you know if if salana is successful it will have to deal with these issues

and um I think it'll be pretty hard but as we were like mentioning earlier I think there's in the governance conversation I think there's a lot to learn from other ecosystems here like ethereum and so I think you know hopefully the salana community can take some of those learnings and apply it to any hardship that it has in the future well Lucas I wouldn't wish the ey of uh ofac on any ecosystem but also I kind of do because it means that ecosystem is doing extremely extremely well uh and it is kind of like the final boss in the more chains that we can go battling the final boss the better so in some weird sick way I do wish the salana ecosystem well and its Endeavors in order to get

to that point uh Lucas thanks for coming on Bank list today just one last question for you just jetto metrics and dashboards and maybe Salon metrics and dashboards if listeners want to just look at Goo uh what websites can they go to to go check this thing out like what websites or metrics or dashboards do you frequent on a daily basis uh yeah so um one of my favorites is the jeto bundle Explorer so that's explorer. gto. WTF you can see all of the bundles that Searchers and Traders are submitting um super cool to see like you know it's doing over 100,000 bundles a day um so there's a lot of cool information in there um another one is um there's some

Dune dashboards um can share you the link share the link with you after there's someone that works at Dune Andrew Hong he's been helping out a lot on the salana uh dashboards and so there's some Jos Soul specific ones and then um another favorite one that recently popped up is the uh 21 Co released a dashboard on salana key metrics so you know it shows the volume and the price and uh number of user transactions and fee Burns and all that stuff so uh yeah big fan of Dune in the GTO bundle Explorer and then actually I guess now now that we're filming filming this I think it'll be released later this week there's actually a jto staket

kind of like a V1 UI so you can go to let me see here I think it's uh j. Network I want to say it's staket and um you can view a lot of the staket stats there well Lucas we will get all of those links in the show notes for the bank list listeners Lucas thanks for coming on my man I learned a lot and like I said the economics conversation around Salon I think is going to be a very interesting one to try especially this bull market while salana you know gets new levels of stress testing in terms of just like numbers of transactions and users and all this kind of stuff uh so it's a Sonic success it's a son of Health uh Lucas you've been putting in the work through uh throughout the bare market so

congratulations on getting to this point and I wish you well my man thank you thanks for having me it was a pleasure bankless Nation you know the deal crypto is risky ethereum is risky Salon is risky Tech stacks of this nature all risky you can lose what you put in we are headed west this is a frontier it's not for everyone but we are glad you are with us on the bankless journey thanks a lot