Jasper De Goojier: SEDA – Intent-Based Modular Data Layer. Ep. 538

Transcript

welcome to epicenter the show which talks about the Technologies projects and people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution I'm Brian Crane and today I'm speaking with Jasper the Hoyer he's the CTO and co-founder of Seda protocol and Seda is a sort of universal Oracle protocol so looking forward to getting into that uh before we uh start talking with Jasper uh just would like to briefly tell you about our sponsors this week this episode is brought You by nosis nosis builds decentralized infrastructure for the ethereum ecosystem with a rich history dating back to 2015 and products like safe cow swap or nosis chain nosis combines needs

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even offer high yield staking to your own customers using their API your assets always remain in your custody so you can have complete Peace of Mind start sing today at chorus. one all right cool thanks thanks so much for coming on J it's great it's great to to have you here thank you for having me Brian super excited to be here yeah like tell us maybe first of all how did you get into crypto and how did that sort of how did that road lead you to S it's a fun story so I think I bought my first crypto just purely as a Speculator sum in like my first uh first

year of college I think in 2016 uh or second year and uh I ended up dropping out of college to start this company that was doing data analytics on uh mostly Facebook data and me and two friends did it we ended up getting Aqua hired but we got increasingly frustrated with the way uh Facebook managed API access so instead of being able to like innovate on the product that we were building we were constantly just like running around with duct like metaphorical duct tape fixing like problems because of them essentially rug pooling uh API access to certain endpoints Etc so it was super hard to build a sustainable like

business that was able to innovate and instead you're were just like fixing the the the product that we had that really sort of stifles innovation from third party developers um and that's what got me more interested in like the crypto space because I I sort of like bought the script I kept like an eye on the market and then as soon as I the the moment where it clicked was sort of like seeing smart contracts as immutable API interfaces so the idea that you always know that this data will be accessible and you can sort of like as a thirdparty developer have this permissionless composability to build thirdparty applications on existing uh infrastructure um the way that empowers developers is what really really sort of

like was the aha moment for me so I I dove into the space um had a programming background taught my self solidity did some Consulting ended up doing sort of like a independent research funded by the ethereum foundation with with a few other people uh we were researching plasma uh which turned into Roll-Ups so we were trying to build eth l2s that was really cool learned a lot surrounded myself with smart people and that was the thing that sort of like kept me in in the beginning um because I joined like full-time back in late 2017 early 2018 like right before like super brutal bare Market but the sort of like the the level of intellect and like the people that were in the space was was so like

magnetic to me it was such a it was such a pleasure to work in such a young industry where everybody was hungry and had a mission it was really that that that what's really got me going next to sort of like the initial um sort of like a interest into into smart contracts um ended up meeting my co-founder at a hackathon uh in 2018 we started building products into space and uh yeah that's that's that's how I rolled into it cool thanks so much and then so with SATA protocol what's what is the vision for SATA so how I describe seta is sort of like as a as a as a layer for data that should be accessible to any developer

right so if you look at sort of like the infrastructure um cycle across Ross crypto starting from the beginning is you have Bitcoin as sort of like this application specific L1 right it just does accounting value transfer that's essentially what it does and then uh ethereum popping up and allowing developers to build sort of like arbitrary business logic in the form of smart contracts uh that then have this composability and people buildt like a suite of different products on and when ethereum was launching like nobody knew what the use cases would be that actually would got get traction that's sort of like the beauty of it the beauty

of it was that anybody could come in deploy a smart contract and then any other person could interact with it right and I think that that sort of like permissionless creation and permissionless access is what created this giant Network effect of what became crypto and we're not seeing that with a lot of the infrastructure today so a lot of the infrastructure providers that are very necessary such as data infrastructure like oracles for example um or Bridges they still act as sort of like King makers and Gatekeepers right like you have these startups or or larger companies that essentially you need to prove to them that you're worthy of deploying to

your chain or like allowing access to like a new feed or allowing allowing you to access their data uh from from a new environment and it all has to do with sort of like technological trade-offs that were made and that were necessary at time because a lot of these projects were built when there was only one chain and with seta the goal is truly to build like this entry point to real world data or data outside of a blockchain's own execution environment that can be accessed from any L1 or L2 and where you can essentially spin up your own data feeds right so you can deploy a program on the seta Network that essentially dictates what data should be queried where and how it should be be computed

that then gets stored on the seta Network and from there it's accessible uh or verifiable uh from any smart contract on any uh L1 L2 or or sort of like crypto Network Okay Okay cool so you said first of all right the the data like you want to have offchain data uh or or data that's at least outside of this particular chain or this particular context you want to have that accessible and of course the reason is sort of right all even today right a lot of things rely on let's say chain link right for maybe writing uh price feed onto onto the chain right that like maybe okay what is the USD to Ether

price or something like that right so and of course there's a lot of like yeah other applications right where you say like or like what do you feel like are some of the applications that like you're most excited about that you think would get enabled by having that capability yeah I think that there's a a few thing to touch on here I think the first thing and you sort of touched on this is it's not just price feeds um I think that when people hear the term Oracle uh they sort of immediately think of price feeds as the use case but I would actually argue that there is like the category of Oracle is extremely broad U I like to say that almost everybody's essentially trying to solve

the Oracle problem in this space right like bridging is essentially an oracle problem solution right it's like an application specific Oracle price feeds an oracle real world assets it's an oracle problem solution I think that um you could even argue that Unis swap for example is essentially an oracle where there's a economic incentive to ARP the price to uh centralized exchange prices right and that that way it reflects sort of like offchain data the use cases that I get most excited about are are still defi just so price feeds but also interoperability uh real world assets the things that I sort of mentioned and the thing that excites me the most about

what we're building is sort of like the permissionless aspect of deploying new things so just like ethereum launch and had no idea what would really stick we have a better idea of the things that works of like the lwh hanging fruit but the the new things we enable is where for me the real sort of like mystery still lies right like as soon as there's like fully permissionless data access for any L1 I have no idea what people and developers will come up with and so it's like this idea of empowering developers is what really is super interesting to me um and then the second thing is as we are seeing the app chain thesis or modularity thesis or whatever you want to call it sort of play out over the last sort of year and a half and I feel like it's going to go

exponential uh in the next year and a half there is core infrastructure that's necessary to enable a ton of use cases on these new rollups and app chains right and I think probably the most core is having access to real world data so I think that the idea of being able to launch an app chain let's say we launch seta today tomorrow I could launch a rollup and immediately have access to all of seta's data which means that I have base uh interoperability and access to price feeds and developers can just start building or we as an application specific Network have access to the data that we that we need you know like I think that

is those things are the things that get me the most excited about the product that we're building okay cool well let's let's go a little bit into details into how this works so you mentioned SATA Network so right so my understanding is SATA network is a cosmos SDK chain you're building right and then is SATA Network basically the way I understood did a developer would go on say the network and then would sort of almost like create a job there and say Hey I want like X data on y chain and maybe set a few parameters or something like that that is essentially how it works big picture if if we dive a bit deeper

how it works is we have set a chain which is used for settlement and checkpointing right so it's like where slashing happens and staking happens and where data references and like you said jobs uh which we call programs are stored if we go through the flow of seta chain I can deploy a program on seta chain that essentially is a set of instructions on how data should be queried from where and how a final outcome should be computed right so for a price feed it could be like query e the USD from six exchanges and then give me a median value right that that could be some of the instructions that you give it to

this program and then the program is deployed almost like a smart contract um so it's stored on the chain and then if you want that data to be queried if you want to get that data answered then what you do is you ping the chain referencing sort of like the contract address or ID of that program and then the chain picks uh verified uh secret random Committee of a second layer which we call overlay layer um which is a network of NPC nodes that get randomly selected to actually perform that computation so from like a technical perspective the program is stored as a wasm binary this wasm binary um gets executed by the overlay notes in

in a wasm VM so they all get essentially some sort of uniform outcome that should be closed to the same outcome and then they commit it back to seta chain on seta chain what we then do is we batch all of the feeds or all of the uh jobs together uh and we meriz them and have them signed at the end of the block maybe we can walk through this like a bit more slowly so you mention so let's take this example right so so you mentioned like I don't know roll up or someone launches like some chain or we yeah roll up or maybe it's like some let's just say it's some cosmosis Decay chain or something and they want they

want what you mentioned right so they want to have the price feed and they want to have yeah the median of the six largest uh centralized crypto exchanges to write like you know just a s simle uh simple price feed so they you deploy this program on seta chain and and then the chain chooses sort of like kind of like a particular set of notes to then perform this J exactly so we do like um yes so the chain uses vrfs to uh pick from like a larger pool validators because tender Min validator sets uh have some scaling scaling issues

yeah okay but is this the people sort of the notes who write this data afterwards are these the validators or these are other nodes yeah so these are not the seta chain validators there can be overlap but this is like a a second set of of notes yes so there second set of notes and then some are basically chosen sort of randomly from that set yep yep and it's like a secret random committee so they don't know which other notes have been selected either it's like to prevent collusion they know beforehand or they they don't even know at the time or so

they don't know beforehand and they only know after sort of like the commit stage right so then after they commit the the outcomes they know which other notes were uh were selected of course because the the chain is now this is public is it is it like a fixed number of notes are chosen or it depends on the security requirements of a particular program yes so the program can set like the replication Factor like how many of the overlay notes uh they want to have run this feed and it depends on the it depends on a bunch of things right so that way you can sort of like cater uh data Security based on the use case that

you use it for if it's for something that doesn't have a lot of risk of uh if it's something basic or or non defi related like it's okay maybe if it's like a small set of overlay notes if it's something that holds a lot of value you probably want to increase the replication factor and then ask somebody who creates this program cuz I want this job I then for example basically fund I put some money into this program that then pays the the node operators who yep yeah so when you ping the chain and reference the program in order to have it executed you provide some gas fees essentially for computation uh computation gets done when you say ping the chain like who

pings the chain and how yeah so anybody can ping the chain to say like hey query this price feed right so if you have a price feed that you want to have updated at a fixed interval for example you can ping the chain at that interval and we're working on something we call continuous data request as well which essentially sets hey for the next X amount of time being every every every time essentially within interval or or set a condition when you want the it to be what want it to be pinged um that's completely permissionless right so anybody can do that like you can write a program that PS the chain directly you could fire an event on your destination chain so I I launch a rollup I fire an event there

that's then picked up by I don't know some solver relay that sees hey they want this data so we are going to do it for them and Bridge it back there's like a bunch of uh a bunch of ways this can be done but it yeah right because the Ping happens on say the chain yes right right and then and then the result is written to the some destination chain the result is written to seta chain first where it's then batched with any other request that come in in the same block and at that point you collect the batch what we do in like a mercel tree and then like I mentioned we sign

the root so from there as as as soon as the root is signed with a batch of data you can verify the signature from our uh validator set essentially from any smart contract and fify that the chain is a certain state so what's cool there also is if one person or a group of people fund an EAS USD price feed that is updated every minute any other chain now ALS has also has access to that uh to that data because all of the data is stored uh essentially in this in this manner okay and then you need some you need like on the destination chain you need to be able to verify right that

signature so so you need to keep track of like the validator set or yeah yep and that's that's the great thing about tender Min is that the validator set is not does not change that much right and we have this uh we have a Prett pretty vanilla chain I say I'd say but there's uh one extra condition which is that if you uh leave the active set you're still required to at least sign the um the roots the the batch routs for another Epoch uh which we still deciding on it's like next 12 hours or something oh so the epochs are relatively short or yeah yeah yeah yeah like 12 hours to two days we're thinking

yeah and and then that's the most often that valid it could change so that's the yeah you would not have to sort of update on each chain destination chain more yeah not too frequently and what's cool is in the in the batches in the Merkle tree there's always we reference sort of like the next validator set so as so as long as you have some data pushed within that time frame somebody can like say hey update set and done okay I'm one thing I'm curious about I mean I know there's been some discussion in Cosmos on you know if

something at BLS signatures where you basically sort of can aggregate a lot of um different signatures in in a single signature like doing something like that is that something that would be very useful here because you could reduce the size of this thing or does that matter for you guys yeah for sure we buildt uh a BLS signature uh implementation uh we built we built a few um because not every smart contract chain has access to the same cryptographic hashes or sorry the the same cryptographic curves so we we buildt a few signatures um that that can be applied to the batches so that they can be at least verified with subsidized verification functions on uh

most VMS yeah what what else is important about what are we missing sort of from this process of like the chain you know goes there there's this program now you have to notes are being chosen they're right on there yeah I I think the the one thing we can touch on is sort of like the the way that data is then transported transmit yeah transported from seta chain to the destination chain because essentially what you have now is like you essentially collecting data on our Network right and yes it's verifiable but how do you incentivize people to then bridge that data back to the the chain where the data is actually

supposed to be consumed and for this it's almost like an intent based Network where there could be multiple reasons why somebody would go there and sort of like Bridge the data back to the destination chain and that the first one would be if there's me exposed right so we can essentially run a lending Network on an on an L1 that we spin up ourselves or or an app chain that to spin up ourselves um use seta as a data source and as soon as there's liquidations uh that's supposed to happen then solvers can come in and then choose to bridge the data over and perform the liquidations wait wait I I'm sorry I I'm I didn't totally get this uh

so okay I understand right the challenge is that basically now the program is running and it has some price feed and then it now that's written onto SATA chain and now the question is I guess how does it get to the destination chain yeah how do you incentivize somebody to to bridge it over right so it can either be if we run the lending protocol like we can run our own solver to sort of like bridge this data over and perform the liquidations or you can rely on third party uh solers or like search is a solver because it sounds kind of like a relay to me

I guess solver is would be in the case if it's like integrated in some let's say some kind of exchange type thing that relies on solers exactly exactly so you because it's like permissionless queriable you can just add the uh ability for solvers to essentially Bridge the data uh or Bridge the proof with any action that they would normally do to perform I don't know liquidations on perp Dees or uh lending markets so basically there's like different ways that this can happen and I mean I guess one example would be you know I create some application on xchain and I want to say

the price feed and I as the application I I'm just going to run some kind of um you know relay and I'm just picking it up and I'm putting it over there and you know I have some external incentive because I want this application to run I guess that would be one one model yeah for sure is it also part of the program that I could just say hey anyone can do this relaying thing and if they do it they get paid some fee yep yep so that's the Bounty idea right so you essentially place a bounty on the destination chain that covers gas fees and then some uh for Bridging the data over and that way you

Outsource it um and then the final one is like I said is like I I just build it as a source for liquidations for example and I assume that at some point when a liquidation occurs that exposes me so there's like an incentive for third parties to come in and Bridge the data over right so it's it's essentially the same thing as a bounty except like you don't place the Bounty it's just part of your network when you say liquidations there will be some kind of can can you walk us through an example for this yeah of course so let's say we have a lending protocol and I hold a position of um I borrow um usdc against eth or something at at some

liquidation uh ratio as soon as the price of eth drops below the liquidation threshold there's a fee to be made for liquidating that position right so if you can Bridge the proof from seta to that chain and prove that eth was below the liquidation threshold you now earn that fee with without the protocol saying like hey it's been x amount of time so you can claim a bounty essentially right so you have like other types of incentives to uh Bridge the data over as well that be that that are sort of natural for for certain defi applications right right okay so so in this example here of course this would only work I

guess if you only need the data you know if the data is only needed for the liquidation right yeah yeah right so so of course then it's only if there's liquidation only if there's that incentive then someone has can make money so that's when they're going to and would they then also they would then also potentially pay the to run the to basically on SATA chain right to get the data and and then you take that and move it over if the feed has not been updated to reflect the current price that is below the liquidation threshold then yes they would have the incentive to also run the one run the feed run the

program okay cool yeah I mean that's a very yeah it's a very power this feeli looks like a very powerful primitive I'm one thing I'm curious about so we we talked about uh price Feats uh cuz it's you know kind of like a known and and and and I'm sure it's probably is still going to be or I imagine it's still going to be the largest use case right CU in the end like crypto is basically um you know people build Financial applications right and they want to trade and then price fees are kind of essential for that but I guess if you look sort of at other types of Oracle other types of data Maybe also data

where there's maybe more of a subjective component yeah I actually say that is one of the more subjective things that's being pushed on chain uh today even actually because like there there's no truth on like what the price of eth is right now right there's like a ton of algorithms that you could use to get as close to the truth as possible but it's really hard to figure out what is truly the price of eth now so you just sort of like take a bunch and then you you use a bunch of like algorithms essentially to try to get to something that is probably close to the truth as close as possible I think that um more subjective data such as for example so so previously and

that's that's probably good to touch on as well we actually build an optimistic Oracle uh as well which is more similar to like an Uma or an augur which essentially allows you to ask practically any question to the Oracle and you essentially have humans coordinate or or sub machine programs or or humans anybody could essentially coordinate and come to um a conclusion of the what the answer to that question is I think seta as a primitive as you call it which I like a lot is not really fit for that type of data it's it's more fit for like API data but um yeah maybe if you could give an example of like the the sort of like more subjective data

sources I mean I guess you could you could be like I don't know who's you know who's the best band in France or what's the best B Bann in France or something like that yeah no I don't think that unless there's an API for that it probably would just something else yeah yeah right yeah I mean but what you could do is you could ask an llm through setup okay to answer that question right so it it I think that is another use case that I forgot to touch on earlier is the fact that because anybody can plug in data to the system you can query anything from Smart contract so llms for example become also accessible to Smart

contracts through through a setup but then how would you verify uh because llms are not really deterministic right so like you ask J GPT something and I ask it something and then you know we get different answers and then so yeah how how would that work that's a great Point um there's two ways uh some of them have deterministic end points that that have some sort of a seed that you can prove like hey this was actually generated by this llm the second one which might be a little bit less sexy but still works is that when the data provider plugs into the network you have them sign the

prompts right so let's say C gbt is a data provider to seta they sign the prompts and you can verify that that that um that the that the prompt at least comes or like the the response scums from open AI provides that for example they provide like signed signed output well not yet not yet but if they would plug into setup we would ask them to do that yeah yeah yeah or or like if if I launch a chpt rapper on top of Zetta I would sign it right so then you don't have proof that it was actually ran by CH GPT but at least you have like somebody to point to as like a testation essentially you have proof it was it was run by Jasper who said he Ed the CH

exactly so that it's not it's not that that's not really bulletproof depends on depends on who hosts the rapper I guess yeah and I mean I gu I'm sure people are going to have you know solve this in some way right where you're going to have some kind of you know deterministic verifiable llm outputs yeah mid journey I believe has deterministic um prompt to image um I I forgot how to do it one of our engineers build a build a prototype using I believe it was mid journey I mean we talking a little bit about sort of the determinist determinism and verifiability I'm

curious are are like zero knowledge proof something like like how how do zero knowledge proofs sort of intersect with SATA I think fully homomorphic encryption could be very interesting for sort of like keeping the data private before it lands on chain um so essentially what you could do is have these overlay nodes that actually do the quaran computation perform the Quan computation through like a fully homomorphic encrypted service or or or data providers I I think the ZK thing I I'm not 100%

sure how we could use it except for for private uh first CK version of what what we're at least like it's not on the road map yet but I mean it's obviously something we think about um I don't I don't I don't see much more than that except for um like the ability to query ZK like clients and prove chain State like in a more elegant way that that that's something that makes a lot of sense and then seta can be used as more of a yeah like a data transport layer which is essentially designed to do right so so yeah that's the other topic I wanted to come back to because I I think you

mentioned earlier uh bridging right as uh as a problem and of course bridging is something where inity something where we've seen you know a massive amount of activities and investment I mean you have like protocol like IBC that has a lot of usage right that basically relies on like you know light lines in each chain that you know there a lot of us in cosos but including also a whole bunch of teams trying to bring that you know like everywhere like things like polymer Union and other ones and then of course you have whole other protocols like Wormhole you have things like axar layer zero there's like a a huge amount of activity there how does SAA do do you

think that SAA would be like um a viable alternative or competitor to these existing bridging Solutions yes I also think that we can be very complimentary to a lot of them right so we're talking to some of the teams you mentioned about seta being part of their stack some of these Solutions still require like oracles or like essentially like somebody to attest data right A lot of them are in the end still some sort of multisig but you try to like make the multisig like for example right layer zero requires still like an Oracle and a

relay as they call them which essentially like two of two multi in which an Oracle and a relayer have to agree on the state of something being something and they they they use uh still like a lot of like RPC data for example so okay so how it works with seta is because everybody can plug into the network and provide data and anybody can uh verify seta Oracle State essentially through some sort of like what we build is pretty similar to IBC it's just got like a like a one-way version light version of IBC so RPC providers can provide data to SATA like we're talking to a bunch of them and essentially what they do is they open up

their API to seta um and then uh people that provide these people can write programs to query a bunch of RPC providers to verify chain States and then you query multiple for the sake of uh redundancy right so um you can write a program that queres like I don't know like infura quick noes and Alchemy to verify the State of East to be a certain um to I don't know like like uh block hashes or or or or contract State and then you have that run through seta start there and then that can be quered from any L1 that then had essentially has access to that piece of State from

ethereum right so that could be used by these uh interoperability protocols as like part of their uh consensus and that's that's something that's that we talks to with a bunch of them and it's it seems to make sense and I think that the thing that makes sense most is that fact that as soon as it enters our chain it's verifiable from any other chain so you get like this super broad distribution mechanism um simply just by having the uh data come into our Network and it's very interesting for RPC providers too because they get to uh monitor that data through onchain uh traction as well not just because right now essentially RPC providers just sell their data to um

people that want to query chain state from I don't know like a server or something but I mean that's a there's a huge demand on chain to query chain State as well so we're sort of like allowing them to tap into that as well yeah I mean to open Serv an additional Market there yeah exactly is is uh RPC also something that say I just did we just did a podcast with lava Network the other week right so and talking quite a bit with them and I mean I think the thing that uh occurs to me that actually a lot of similarity here right where you know they also basically right

have some kind of on chain contract thing right that then you know H requires a bunch of people that they can write run basically RPC nodes uh although I guess in their case not the results wouldn't be written like on chain right it stays offchain right so yeah but all they need to do is plug their uh one of their RPC gateways or whatever they called into the seta Network and now they also get them on Iz onchain and I think that that's actually really interesting especially for like the more distributed RPC networks because they have like this sort of like permissionless aspect to them as well right like that that's one of the like

core goals of one of these more uh like like I know like the lava networks or the poet networks of this world is like the allow access permissionless Le to rpcs and have like super high quality service to distribution like load distribution and network distribution I think that plugging that into a network like seta is extremely makes a lot of sense and we are in conversation uh with with some of these providers as well yeah I mean I guess the sort of flip side is right that in in the end I guess SATA provides this verifiability right because if I'm like okay I want to ask what's the balance of you know this account on ethereum or something like that right then maybe I want this rified right because it's going to trigger

something right or maybe I just wanted to show something in in the website and I guess SAA would be really good if you want it verified and something like laa would be good if you don't need it verified or if you don't need it verified onchain seta couldn't work without somebody like lava providing that data to seta right or or or like an infura so and then the more the merrier because she can create redundancy which increas the security even more so I think that um yeah that that that would be the Point actually yeah yeah basically they just had the the same operators that would serve something like laa could also serve something like say right and

yeah I think I think the idea is basically that lava does the exact opposite for feta does right they they exact other direction so they try to make onchain State through RPC accessible to offchain right we are trying to make all of the RPC data available on chain and we don't want to be build our own RPC Network right like that that that that's a whole different Beast dis slay so we would rather have uh somebody like lava plug into our Network um and provide data and be paid essentially to do what they do already but for smart contracts so I mean I get

that what s is seems B you know useful for is is some degree of interoperability in the sense of you know I want like maybe state from something that happens on CH a it triggers something on chain B right like that that seems like pretty you know like that getting that data over but then I guess when you look at let's say um of course one of the main use cases for inability is basically moving tokens from one chain to the other so it means you you lock it up in one chain and you create some sort of you know asset that can be redeemed for the assd on the original chain I guess that is something that maybe one could theoretically built

on top of Seda but it's not something that like sort of s natively will be able to to do right yeah so so you need to build it into into seta uh through the form of a program but what you could also do is plug it into hyper lane or layer zero use it as the Oracle and now you have a super decentralized uh Bridge right so if you if you use seta using like a third- party Bridge application that's configurable all of the sudden you create like this um sort of like hyper interoperable due to the permissionless X um sort of like scaling so that that I think that's really interesting because yeah you you could you could launch a rollup tomorrow plug your RPC into seta and then uh use

hyperlane configure the Oracle to be seta and now you're interoperable with essentially any of the other chains that also uh have RPC data available on seta and I think that that is super powerful it's like like you said it's a primitive and I think that that's where we need to go in the space right like infrastructure need to be sort of like commoditized and accessible to all instead of being uh gate capped and sort of like acting as king makers yeah cool so I know you guys have been working on this for a few years like what is sort of the like where are you right now yeah yeah so we so we've been working in the Oracle space for a few years um and it's it's actually like I mentioned the optimistic

Oracle we built before before we also launched uh a first party Oracle optimistic or like what's what's an optimistic Oracle yeah an optimistic Oracle is essentially an oracle that you you you ask a question right like what's the price of eth and um somebody will answer it right or a group of people will answer it and then you have like this dispute resolution mechanism that dictates in the end what the outcome was so the benefit is it's very accessible you can ask subjective questions uh the um annoying part is that it's can be incredibly slow if there is if it's a if it's like a a controversial question or

because you need some challenge period or something challenge periods and then if the challenge period if within the challenge period there is somebody challenged then it like extends right sort of like up to a certain point and it can take just super super long um it's cool but it requires the use cases are not that obvious right you see it with Uma who um has built this really cool Oracle but it's hard to find third party developers that get it enough to build on it so they end up building a lot of the problem uh projects that are built on top of their Oracle in-house like uh o snap or across for example so so so we were building that and then in parallel we were building sort of like the opposite which was a first party Oracle which is purely API data and we

just give essentially software to data providers that then push data on chain themselves directly um and that worked really really well so we had like a few data providers pushing price data on chain and the cool thing was that um we grew from zero total value secured to like over three billion in total value secured over the span of like two months I believe so we value secured how how like what kind of value was secured with that so it was mostly like lending defi um but the so so so essentially total Val secured I say is if our Oracle got hacked how many money could you steal right that's sort of like if if it got exploited how much money okay so these

were some def5 protocols that basically uh dependent on the Oracle you guys have yes exactly like the total like The cumulative total value secured of um D5 protocols using uh flux first party Oracle um so yeah we grew to the second largest Oracle in the last Bull Run do you know how how big was that number for chain link like 60 billion 60 billion yeah yeah yeah maybe 80 like between 60 and 80 somewhere yes so so we grew extremely quickly um which was cool but we also ran into sort of like the horizontal scaling issues right like you have like

this we were The Gatekeepers at that point where like we're picking where we deployed to and like the monitoring of all of these chains making sure there were balances in all of these chains making sure uh the validators or the or the data providers were all like happy and pushing and that that everything was going well it just didn't scale well and that's why you see this huge weight times for Integrations with uh sort of like these more centrally run uh Oracle networks and that that's really what we were trying to solve uh and that's why we that's what we that's when we started designing uh what became seta um next up though at the end of this quarter uh we're launching our token migration so we launched the token so end of this

quarter means like end of March or something yeah yeah like mid to late March uh we just kicked off audits cu the Seda token exists today and it's on ethereum or yes exactly so with these previous oracles we launched a token and that's going to be the same token that's going to be securing seta chain so we need to have some time to migrate a large part of the topens over before we go to like mayet with the Oracle modules so we're launching sort of like a vanilla Cosmos chain with token migration uh enabled and uh are looking to launch the first like Oracle modules to mayet uh hopefully in Q2 so like by Q2 there should be the first mayet like uh data

flowing to uh chain through seta cool that's that do you already know some of the some of the first applications or use cases that people building on top of s yep yep we want to so the thing I'm like most passionate about this I think for like the next this and next cycle is the idea of chane abstraction can you explain uh chane abstraction yes so right now when you have all these rollups popping up right and they're all completely siloed off and as a user if I want to interact with it I have to find a way to bridge tokens to it or get tokens to that instance of a chain that I want to interact with

then I have to go to my wallet integrate the RPC swap to the uh swap to the correct chain and it's it's like if I want to switch from Facebook to Instagram all of the sudden I have to change my IP settings or something it's a it's a really really horrible ux or you like have to bridge your account over like your photos or something I don't know like statuses it's like terrible ux um so the idea of chain abstraction is that you create so I think there's multiple implementations of it but to me it's like you create a single layer that people interact with and then from there there's like in the back end there is actors solvers that actually perform the

actions in your name on the destination chains so you don't ever have to touch them but you still still own representations of those actions so that you have like yeah you're the rightful owner of the positions on these other chains and in order to do that you need uh Primitives that allow you to query state from all of these chains right and you cannot rely on like some third party actor to deploy their uh like interoperability primative to all of these chains separately so I think that that is where seta has an extreme Advantage is the fact that you can permissionless deploy seta on

all of these chains and you will'll always be able to rely on sort of like the same standard to query data to verify whether something happened or not on on these destination chains so so that is something I personally like focus on to make sure we have like we're working with multiple teams um that are trying to solve for this and uh the other ones are like I mean rollups launching that need uh need price data um existing rollups that are sick of waiting for another third for another Oracle to launch on their Network and are like can you guys please go live so that we can have access to like price feeds and like Bas interoperability and such I think that um yeah that that

that's that's the sort of like lowest hanging fruit for now and then we have some more interesting like knee shoes cases that we're working at that involve some of the um like llm things that that I touched on earlier that I that are that are that are fun but are sort of like to see whether they are going to be uh core of our business but yeah that's that's the those sort of like the categories that that we're focusing on internally cool and then are are these e theum Oracle are are these flock Oracle still running or those have been discontinued no we we shut them down um we we s said them uh early last year or like somewhere somewhere September last year I think so the token is would have been like dormant and kind

of waiting for the rebirth of yeah yeah exactly exactly we've been really stealth also because we we had this thesis that this is where the space was going but until we saw it play out we weren't really comfortable being loud yet and until we were closer to launching and like confident that we came up with like the correct solution but now that we are we we are a lot more comfortable uh going on podcast and uh talking to talking to a ton of projects about about what we're doing I mean it to me it sounds like a really logical way or approaching this problem and like something that yeah can see like a a massive market for this so sounds very

cool yeah yeah we're super excited we can't wait to get this thing live it's uh it it we're ready cool well uh thanks so much for coming on Jasper so I think if people want to check out right so the website is like s soxyz and anything else you want to sort of show yeah yeah follow us on Twitter at setup protocol uh I'm Jasper flux uh on Twitter um check out our Discord come hang out ask questions um if you're Pro a builder in the space and you're launching your own network and the idea of find ing Oracle providers seems

daunting like reach out we're happy to spar with you on how to get data to your chain talk to you about what data you need and um yeah make sure we we we're able to support you as soon as we launch cool well thanks so much for coming on Jasper uh it's was great to have you and um thanks so much for listening us for tuning in we look forward to being back next week