Iran Unchained: How the Islamic Republic Holds Power and Why Protests Keep Returning

Transcript

I think what people don't really understand is that we are not dealing with a normal government. We are dealing with a terrorist mob and they are armed to their teeth and they are not hesitant to use all of those arms and all of those powers on their own civilians. We cannot just stand here and watch and say, "Let them handle it themselves." Well, they will be killed. What we hear from people on the ground is something above like 30,000 [music] people killed. They killed thousands and if they have to, they will kill millions.

Bankless Nation, I'm here with Amin Soleimani and Sana Ebrahimi. Amin, Sana, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. >> We are going off of our beaten path today to talk about a subject matter I think is critically important for the world. Uh this is usually a crypto podcast, uh but crypto is about freedom. Uh freedom from oppression and freedom to exit from systems uh that we don't agree with or align with. And so maybe there is some overlap between what we typically talk about on the show and what we're going to talk about here on today's episode. Um Amin, Sana, you guys are both Iranians. How does it feel to be an Iranian right now? Right now being an Iranian in

the diaspora, um feels stressful. Um It was very tense. Um alone. Um sometimes I feel very guilty to just not be there. Um especially when you see all the names and all the photos of the people who have been murdered and I feel ashamed. I genuinely sometimes feel ashamed to be sitting in safety um and to have everything that people are fighting for over there and giving their lives.

Um So, that's that and at the same time I feel very proud. Um I don't think there has ever been a time that any of us been more proud of being Iranian because of what we see and how our people stood up like genuinely to pure evil empty-handed. Um that's how I feel these days. Very similar. Um angry uh sad. Um you know, sad cuz you open, you know, social media and you see the uh recordings of, you know, massacres and bodies and morgues filled with uh bodies of protesters who, you know, are

just freedom-seeking Iranians that stood up to the Islamic Republic and got mowed down with machine guns. Um and then, you know, it's it's just like adds up uh and then and then um angry at, you know, the world for conveniently finding reasons to potentially ignore this um and but fury fury at the Islamic Republic and everybody involved uh in that organization. Amin, we've had you on the show before at least a couple of times. Maybe long-time Bankless listeners will um remember our episode about Moloch uh which is a uh a merit metaphor parable that has uh some deep roots in in Bankless DNA.

Sana, you you are new to the show. Uh you are outside of the uh the crypto industry. Maybe you could just introduce a little bit about yourself um uh who you are, where you came from and and your your life story to kind of give us the context that we need to progress in this conversation. So, I um am 30 years old. I was born and raised um in Tehran in a lower middle-class family. I was raised in the southern part of Tehran, south towards the middle. Um very lower middle-class upbringing.

Um I've been to Sharif University uh for my undergrad um in computer science and then in 2019 I moved to the states um to go to graduate school. Um right now I'm a PhD student in computer science at University of Illinois Chicago um soon to be graduating. Um and yeah, I've been here um been very vocal. Um when I was in Iran, I would attend to protest uh anytime, any chance I got. Um and now I'm trying my best to be as vocal as I can.

Maybe let's uh let's start with some foundation that we need to really have in order to for this conversation I think to be effective. I think there's just a education gap, an information gap between the typical Western person about what Iran actually is and and why it is that way. So, maybe maybe we can start with kind of just like talking about the Iranian regime cuz I think that's something that's just so foreign to the average person who's probably listening to this podcast. Like, what actually is the Iranian regime? What does it want for itself? What does it want for the world? Does it have like a a North Star that we need to identify? Uh what what can we say about what we know about the Iranian regime?

>> The first thing you need to know about the Iranian regime is that it's not Iranian. Uh we call it the Islamic Republic, you know, or just the regime or uh like it's essentially, you know, a group of uh Islamic fanatics uh that came to power it uh after the Shah left in 1979 uh through, you know, a series of coordinated acts of terrorism against the Iranian people and an alliance with the the Marxists uh who covered for them. And their primary goal is not the uh interest of the Iranian people. It is the export of the Islamic uh doctrine and and jihad to the world.

And so, uh a lot of the reason that the Iranians are so uh furious with the Islamic Republic is because they essentially rob all of the Iranian people uh in order to get the resources to execute their jihad and set up their, you know, terrorist proxies in Syria and Iraq and uh Hamas and Hezbollah and and Houthis and so forth. Um and that's what they do. And they rule through theocracy uh and the uh Khamenei, the supreme leader, Ayatollah, uh it's not a democracy. It's not It's not It's barely a republic. Uh it is a essentially it what I mean, I would say authoritarian.

It's become totalitarian. Like in the last 2 weeks we've gone from like China to North Korea, you know. You're essentially you can't uh argue with Islamic law. Yeah. Uh because uh that's not how it works. Uh they set the rules and there is, you know, people have tried to protest for decades and ultimately come to the conclusion that there is no fixing this system. It does not want to be fixed. To be accurate, whatever Amin said was totally correct um but to be very accurate, it's an Islamic theocracy.

Um in an Islamic theocracy, uh clerics who claim divine authority like Khamenei um and other clerics so in Iran, they have direct control over the entire state and they justify their power um over that. In this in this system, the Islamic Sharia law um oversights everything and everything um is governed through that Islamic law that is treated as like this supreme source of legislation. In Iran, um

the supreme leader who's Khamenei has this ultimate power that basically overrides any other authority like parliament, courts, um even the president. Uh so, it has like appearance of a republic but it's actually a Islamic theocracy and clerical rules. What if you could trade gold, forex, and global markets with the same tools and speed that you use for crypto? That's exactly what Bitget TradFi unlocks. After strong beta demand, including over $100 million in single-day gold trading volume, Bitget TradFi is now live for all users. Inside of your existing Bitget account, you can

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feed? The premium feed has extra interviews that I do for my own personal research and just deeper questions that I want answered about the crypto industry. Questions that I want to answer so I can be more informed as an investor both at Bankless Ventures and also just in my own personal portfolio, too. Also, there are no ads, which means if you listen to the premium feed inside of the free feed, you'll get about 20 hours of your life back every year because you choose to support Bankless directly. So, if you're interested in getting extra content all while skipping the ads or you just appreciate what we do here and want us to keep doing it, we'd appreciate it if you signed up for Bankless Premium. And there is a link in the show notes to get started. Cheers to a good 2026. And then this is the the

Ayatollah. I don't know of the word Ayatollah being used in any other context. What is an Ayatollah? Ayatollah is the highest so cleric clerics have different titles. An Ayatollah is the ultimate the highest level of a cleric where it has basically divine authority and Muslims are supposed to Shia Muslims are supposed to follow them and their orders. Say yes basically to everything they say and they have divine authority meaning that God has appointed them.

So if you are uh opposing them or raising against them, you're raising against God. That is precisely why in Iran if you oppose the regime they will sentence you to death for waging war against God, moharebeh. Because you raised against Ayatollah who has divine authority by God. So that's that. Mhm. What about the notion that um you know sometimes in my replies since I've gotten very loud about Iran over the last few weeks so sometimes people have given me this response that

like well the the religion really isn't the North Star is not the overarching thing. It's just kind of a ruse to project power. You know what they really want is regional power and oil and money and you know it's the same as all barbaric thugs that have tried to capture people and rule over them as history. Is there anything to that that like they maybe maybe the religion is not as important as people think and it's actually just like kind of a cover to just project power and oppress and control these people. Is there anything to that?

>> I think it's very hard to distinguish. It has things to do with religion. Uh because the goal of Khomeini and generally the Islamic Republic is to make this hegemonic religious authority and be the final arbiter of like true Islam in the Muslim world. So the main objective here is to make Iran um an Islamic led country ruled by the clerics where um Khamenei who's the Velayat-e Faqih rule

of the jurist is the legitimate model of governance of Muslim world and Iran is treated as this like ideological center in the Muslim world. So like all of these proxy groups militias that you see is to enforce um this vision that Khomeini and has and Khomeini had for the Islamic Republic. All of these like anti-Western rhetoric all of this resistance uh branding you see um these are all to serve like this purpose that turns basically clerical authority into like this transnational power. Now

one thing to remember though is that Khomeini's facing a really huge obstacle here. Because Khomeini is a Shia Muslim leader. And Shia Muslims are the minority group among Muslims. Um the majority of Muslims in the world like 1.2 billion um Muslims um majority of them are Sunni Muslims and majority of Sunni Muslims do not even believe that Shiism is the real Islam.

So that's why Khomeini has this beef with Saudi Arab Arabia because Saudi is the hub of Sunni Muslims and um Khomeini is in battle with Saudi's to become and claim um Islamic authority over the world. Now why this is important because when you are the leader of the Muslim world you will and people actually believe in you to have like some sort of divine authority you will have 1.2 billion soldiers around the world that operate at your

command. And that gives you an extraordinary unbelievable power. Um which is what Khomeini seeks but it's obviously very ambitious because he's a Shia leader. Like an example of this in action is uh how Iran the Islamic Republic came out um and tried to be the leader of the sort of anti-Zionist uh movement uh because the unifying meme across Shia and Sunni uh Islam uh is anti-Zionism and uh the destruction of Israel. So that was why uh

the October 7th attack which was engineered by the Islamic Republic happened because Saudis were about to get into Abraham Accord which would basically declare peace between uh Israel and Saudi Arabia which is looked at as the leader of Muslim world. Mhm because it's the larger of the two groups. >> Yes. Yes. And that's where Islam is from. Yeah Mecca and Medina. >> Mecca Medina.

Um so that was a huge threat for Khomeini and the Islamic Republic. Um if these two group come to peace they will really have they will have no way to hang on to their power in the region. Right. In the West we have this uh you know freedom of religion tolerance for religion and so one one might say is like oh well you know the the Ayatollah the Islamic Republic got into power in in 1979 and that's just what the the people of Iran want and we should we should tolerate that uh and who are we

to say that like you know maybe they do some distasteful things that we don't wouldn't do in the West but that's that's I'm not going to judge Islamic culture. I'm not going to judge Shia religion. Uh how would you respond to that? To answer that question we should go back to what actually the Islamic Revolution promised. What were the promises and what they are actually implementing right now what they are achieving. Now to go back there Islamic Revolution came into power with a really famous slogan Esteglal Azadi Jomhouri-e Eslami independence freedom Islamic Republic.

Now to just like give you an idea >> for the podcast listeners. >> The the funnier the funnier part uh let me give you the funnier things. Um I have prepared a note. Let me um read you this note that is directly from the Khomeini's website. So Khomeini has this website that is all like um his speeches like everything that he has said. Now this is directly from Khomeini's uh page titled the goals and main slogans of the Islamic Revolution. Now these are the objectives of the Islamic

Revolution in his views. One, independence and the elimination of all forms of dependence. The revolution aimed to establish the country's independence from the domination and interference of foreign powers. Now this is funny because right now Iran is Islamic Republic is pretty independent on Russia and China and Russia owns um a lot in Iran. Um they are getting our Iranians oil with like 30% discount.

Um and if China loses Iran they will basically lose like 25% of their crude oil. The second one is the rule of Islam over society and the promotion of religious values placing Islam in the position of authority and as the primary criterion for governing governing society. Which is what I would say pretty accurate in terms of what they are doing. Um very extreme Islamism uh but that's what they are doing with like the clerical system that they built.

The third one is this is very funny. Freedom of speech and expression. Creating genuine social and political freedoms for the people. They are now killing people for just simply walking out of their home um in the protest or chanting something or posting something. The fourth one is justice and the elimination of discrimination. The political system must establish justice and eradicate inequality and oppression. Iran aside from everything there are so many things happening in Iran right now. A

lot of oppression, killing, and crimes against humanity. But, just to give you a very basic example, Iran is gender apartheid state. It's literally gender apartheid. Women are treated as second-class citizens. The religious minorities cannot hold an office. They have their representatives in the parliament, but there are so many discriminations against religious and ethnic minorities and women.

The fifth one is the expansion of public welfare, economic development, and improving people's living standards. Iran has been living under 40% inflation for the past God knows how many years. Our currency went from 1 US dollar 7 uh rial, 7 Iranian rials to 1 US dollars 1 million 500,000 rials. There was this like a very famous a slogan um that Khomeini would say uh frequently in his speeches, "We're going

to give bring you free water, free electricity, you know, free everything." Free free free? Yeah, right now in Iran people don't have electricity for a couple hours every day. People don't There's a water shortage in Tehran and across Iran. People do not have water for hours every day. There is like a schedule they have to follow. The sixth one is the revival of human dignity and the people's role in determining their own destiny. Respecting human worth and enabling real public participation in shaping the country's future.

This is absurd because Khamenei is an unelected official. He's the supreme leader. He has the ultimate power to override everything else in the country, and he's unelected. And the loop goes this way. There is a Majlis-e Khobregan. There's this council that consists of like five or six people, and there's the supreme leader. And there is this crazy loop that Khamenei, the supreme leader, picks the this the members of this council, and the members of this council pick the supreme leader.

And these are not elected officials. Mhm. The The It It also works the same way for like the president. Like the president uh it's presidential candidates are nominated by the council appointed by the supreme leader. Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> Yes, exactly. So, they have to be approved by this council, Majlis-e Khobregan, before they even get to be a candidate, a presidential candidate. The seventh one is laying the groundwork for human growth and development in society and removing sources of corruption, promoting ethics, faith, and human flourishing within society. How absurd that is.

>> As we get further along on this list, this seems to be starting to be a a list of failures. That's it. And that's that's the list. These were the promises that the Islamic Revolution came to power with. So, people who supported the Islamic Revolution were like, "Oh, this this sounds reasonable. I want all of that. Why not? I mean, the the economy was booming back then. So, in people's mind is like, "Well, it's going to only get better, right?"

So, when people the people when people were supporting the Islamic Revolution, it was not them supporting the current system. No one even dreamed of this in their worst nightmare. Like, no one saw this coming. So, people were not supporting a Islamic theocracy. People do not like an Islamic theocracy. Um there were are like a huge population that might be religious, but they didn't want religion ruling their life. To what degree do we know that um was this a lie that whoever was in the the first

Ayatollah the the Khamenei. Khamenei. Yeah. Was Do we think that he was just lying through his teeth? Was he maybe being honest at the time? Or Or he No, okay. Aggressive shaking of the head. So, it was just like straight straight lie through the teeth. They will tell the the this people and then we will just They'll That's what they want to hear, and then we will just do whatever we want once we actually assume power. That was That was always the plan. Complete lie. And you know how you can tell? Right after the revolution succeeded, all of these freedom of expressions, like human growth, so Islamists and um Marxist groups were working hand in hand. And Marxists were hoping that

when the Islamic Revolution succeeds, we are also going to hold some power. A lot of them bought in because of the, you know, free this and that and uh more socialist uh policy ideas. But, right after the Islamic Revolution succeeded, uh Khomeini and his circle started eliminating them and pushing them aside. Eliminating them? Yeah. They started They started killing um literally all Marxists and Communists and anyone they got their hands on because they were protesting. I can comment on this a bit.

My mom was a commie. Uh and and I don't mean like modern left-wing, you know, Marx I mean like little red book uh Leninism, you know, uh very much influenced by like Russia and China. Uh and so, she was anti-Shah. Uh and she you know, it it was born out of uh not understanding, being manipulated by the media. Um because, for example, you know, there were acts of terrorism done by the Islamists. There's a famous one called Cinema Rex, where uh Islamists burned down a movie theater while because it was playing Western films uh with like 400-plus people inside. And

everybody essentially melted. Um and uh the communist run newspapers um would blame it on the Shah. They would say that he was doing stuff like this to, you know, cause chaos and and and so forth. And people didn't know better. Uh there wasn't an internet. Uh you know, it was a lot of uh broadcast media, right? And so, um she was, you know, in the streets against him. And then as soon as the Islamic Republic took power, she described pretty horrific things. Like, you know, her and her friends were at university, and then they import like a a a like truck buses full of what what are now called Basij, uh the morality police. And there's like She remembers

telling me, "There's like a guy with an apron and two butcher knives uh ready to establish order in her university." You know, this is like They're like, "What is going on? Who are these people that have, you know, come come to mess with us." And then the other thing that the Islamic Republic did is uh went back on all of the progress that had been made towards uh women's rights. Um so, under the Shah, women in Iran actually had suffrage. I think even before like women in Switzerland. Um but a lot you know, and they still have suffrage, but like uh the hijab laws and the uh the >> judges. Yeah, the establishment of women as second-class citizens that are

mandated to wear a hijab as a sign of their submission to the Islamic Republic and to Islam uh came right after. And there was some women's marches uh because they felt betrayed by the Islamic Republic. When we say it's lies, it's that almost immediately afterwards. And And the I I actually like barely exist uh because um I got lucky because my dad was like a math exchange student in the US, and he was like writing love letters to my mom uh you know, in during the initial Iran-Iraq war. And he essentially flew there, married her, flew her to the America, and then like immediately like the next week all of her like communist friends got picked up. And many of them

got executed. And a lot of them were asking that the the the government was asking them specifically about my mom. You know, uh that's really >> a Why did the Marxists Why did the Marxists threaten or offend the Islamic regime so much? >> It's a pretty clear Machiavellian move, right? Uh right It's like in the prince, you know, the the biggest threat to you are the people who just helped you take power. Mhm. That and also they were um So, when Islamists and Marxists were um working together, Marxists and Communists had like um armed groups that would do like armed operations for them, for the uh revolutionaries.

So, after um they the revolution succeeded and they got their beef with the Islamists and with Khomeini and his circle, uh they started uh protesting. After their first protest um was cracked uh they they had a crackdown on their protest, um a lot of them got arrested, a lot of them were injured, killed whatever. Um they started armed operation in Iran. Um armed operation on like officials.

Uh they like uh killed uh it's a few of the officials and that's when they started like heavy crackdown and the crackdown we're talking about was not on these like people that were active in armed operation. No. My father used to tell me I actually have a similar story to Amin in terms of barely existing. My father told me they would pick up high school students who had simply like a poster or a book. They were called forbidden books. If they had forbidden books, they would be picked up and executed. So a lot of high school students were

picked up. Very young people that had no idea what is happening and 4,000 plus of them were executed right after the revolution. It was that. And then my father was actually the first generation of student who were going to college right after the revolution. One thing that happened after the Islamic revolution succeeded was 3 years of what was called cultural revolution.

All the schools were shut down, all the universities were shut down. What they were doing was basically clean up and reset the system. They changed all the textbooks and they basically made the stories, the the narrative in a way that benefits them. And this is this narrative, Israel is the enemy, America is the enemy, the Shah was a monster. All of that. They basically they added their indoctrination to the textbooks. They fired everyone who did not submit to the system, was not loyal and was not religious. So there were two the most important criterias for being in the educational

system was one, be loyal to the Islamic Republic and two, be religious. Merit was nowhere to be found. So they fired a lot of teachers, professors and everything and they changed the system. They cleaned up the system in a way that benefits them. And then after that, the universities opened. My father passed two rounds of exams which were really hard. And he got into chemical engineering at Polytechnic.

This was like a really good school founded by the Shah. And um he went for they had something called interview, in person interview. In this interview, they were asked only religious questions. Like like say a prayer or like read this verse of Quran or like different questions about religious practices. It has nothing to do with being a student. And then after that there was another level.

In the next step, they would go to that person's neighborhood and start doing a background check on them. Basically doing a research on their family to figure out their loyalty to the system. So in that step, my father was raised in a very religious family so he passed the religious part. And then after that they went to do a background check on his family and one of their neighbors was said like basically ratted them out and said, oh they they are not very fond of the regime.

And they banned my father from going to school. So they didn't let my father go to school and then after that, I mean you're 18 and you're not going to school, you have to do a mandatory military service. And during that time there was Iran-Iraq war going on. So my father was taken to the war against his will and served for 2 years in Artesh, the army. And then after that he was back. He was arrested and kidnapped by the regime.

Now he was arrested instead of his friend. Um so it was a wrong person. They tortured him for like 2-3 weeks no one knew where my father was. And why was he arrested? So his friend was like part of this communist system and they picked him up instead and then they started like torturing him trying to get forced confession saying like this was you.

And This is a pretty common practice. They'll do this with today even with like parents of protesters. They'll pick up brothers, sisters. Yeah. So they tortured my father. My father would like tell me exactly what they did. He said, first of all they had their eyes blindfolded. He was hanging from his wrist from the ceiling and they would flog him with like a thick cable and then he would pass out from the pain and the injuries. They would throw water at him and start torturing him again just to get him to sign a forced confession which my father never did.

And he said once like this blindfold went down and I could see a little bit and I saw a room that was all the ceiling and the walls were covered in blood, blood of other people. And they even threatened to execute him. And the only reason my father could get could get released was one, he never signed that forced confession. Two, my grandfather found like through some of his friends found some connections that could basically get him out.

So it was a total miracle. Um I am barely here and that was like his experience of that and yeah. Yeah this this is as I understand the system is you you have this oppressive regime as we've identified but there is also the back alley back channel corruption of if you know the right person, if you can like it's just like there is a spine of corrupted backbone that like maybe even the people are connected to in the sense of like can you find the right person in the back end of this regime to help you know, get a family member free, get yourself free, something like this that also seems to be a pretty persistent

part of like what I understand the Iranian regime to be. Basically if you are not connected to sources of power, you cannot get anywhere. If you're a business owner, if you have any anything in any aspect of life, you cannot get anywhere and they will destroy you. Yeah that like the IRGC, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps operates as essentially a mafia and like they'll go up to businesses that they don't have a stake in or controlled and be like, be a shame if something happened, you know, if you don't let us have 20% of your business and if they don't do it then they destroy it in favor of their competition, you know. Exactly.

This whole thing can sort of be described in crypto terms as like a generational rug pull. You know. >> [laughter] >> The thing that even they said going in is not what it what it became and the people who understood that started speaking out but at that point it was already too late. And you know for the in this there is a lesson I would say for Americans especially New Yorkers. Um Ahmadinejad's rhetoric was very similar to what Khomeini was promising the people.

I mean all the freedoms, all the welfares for everyone. >> Free buses, free everything. >> Yeah like we are familiar with this and we saw how that turned out. >> And a lot of the resentment today is just also caused by the corruption and the mismanagement of the country's wealth and resources. If people could, you know, get their water and their food, you know, and had economic opportunities, weren't isolated from the whole world, there might not be as much animosity against the government but they can't even manage the country.

Yeah. One of the things that Sona read out in the mandate of the Islamic regime was like just, you know, use the resources of the country to better the people. Well what what actually happened is that money, a lot of that money got funneled into some of Iran's proxies. It also got funneled 20 billion dollars is like the Chechi BT number for how much money Iran has invested in its nuclear program which is as far as we understand to be completely destroyed. So, you know, all that investment that could have gone into bridges, infrastructure, clean water. It's worth noting that like there is a water crisis across Iran because the infrastructure across Iran is so terrible which is, you know, a pretty logical outcome of corruption.

I want to It's not a priority for them. Right. The people are not a priority. It's not like I have a Khomeini quote in front of me. I'll read you real quick. It says, we do not worship Iran. We worship Allah for patriotism is another name for paganism. I say let this land Iran burn. I say let this land go up in smoke provided Islam emerges triumphant in the rest of the world. I think it's worth highlighting that. Let this land burn. It's like I I think a lot of people just might naively think that like you know, that maybe there there is if the protest get loud enough the regime will be like, "Oh, you know what? Maybe the people are right. Maybe we'll just step down, you know, whoopsies."

What respond to that? I mean. Sure. Unfortunately, the Shah was a much better man and loved Iran much more than the mullahs. Um When when it came time for the Shah to in 1979 decide if he wanted to turn his guns on his people or step down, he chose to step down. And one of his final words that he said is history will you can't hide the truth from history. And he was betting that the people of Iran would figure out the lies that they were told and how they were misled and eventually find their way.

The mullahs are not like that. They have no hesitation as they've shown in turning their guns on their people. And if it benefits them and they feel that this is what they need to do in order to survive, they will burn down the country and everybody in it just to be king of the ashes for an extra week. I wouldn't even say mismanagement. They are actively hate Iran and Iranians and they are ready to sacrifice that for the whatever stupid cause they have in their mind, which is basically like holding power within like Islamic world. Um And somehow they got

Marxists supporting them. Um which is quite unbelievable, but it happened and we are seeing happening even today. You brought up the gender apartheid. I want to just touch on that a little bit more because I don't think we really did it justice. In the West, Western liberals really like to use the Handmaid's Tale as like a symbol of something we need to avoid here in America. And like to their credit, they are doing a fantastic job inoculating the West against anything close to the Handmaid's Tale story, which is another like theocratic oppressive totalitarian a sci-fi futuristic fiction novel that I think got turned

into a TV show about a just a a theocratic regime. I don't know if this is true, but it seems pretty loosely related to what's going on in Iran. Maybe you can talk about just like just illustrate illuminate this like gender apartheid a little bit more. What are some of the horrors that women have to go through in Iran? That was a good example when I was watching Handmaid's Tale. I was just telling people I was I was watching with. I was like, "This is Iran. This This is what's happening in Iran." Just to give you some like some of the examples. Um in Iran, women cannot hold like certain positions.

There is an official pay gap between men and women. Women do not have the right to leave the country unless um their husbands give them permission. They don't have the right to divorce unless their husband signs and gives them the right to divorce. They They cannot They can even lose their right to uh the custody rights of having their children and if they divorce. Um there is no There is a national abortion ban.

Under no circumstances um there is an abortion. Um hijab laws or we cannot even choose what we want to wear. You get arrested for that. You get beat up by the morality police for that. You get fined for it. Like the whole Massa the whole Massa Amini movement uh happened as a result of like a you know, just some normal Kurdish woman uh Jina you know, Massa Amini beaten by the morality police for not wearing her hijab. And this happens all the time and people are sick of it and that was the motivation to up you know, start protesting you know, 3 years ago.

Just just to let you know like my own experience like I would go to school every day or take the train go to school. On my way, there were police stops like there was there were these big van police vans. Um they had like two women with like covers like what is called chador or is this like long veil that people that women cover themselves with like very conservative women. Um and they would like come up to you and harass you basically force you to like cover your hair or if you had like let's say short shirt

what we call it manto is like a long shirt that we wear. It comes to like our knees up to our knees. Um if it was like short shorter than a certain amount, they arrest you and basically take you to the police station and your guardian your parents has to come um and like sign something and bring you like new clothing. And then I would get to the university. I would see that on my way. And then I would get to the university.

We had at Sharif and I think every university in Iran, there were two different doors. One door was for men and other door was for women. As you are walking through, you have to pass through a room where someone is sitting there and basically looking at what you're wearing and if what you're wearing is not appropriate does not meet their standards, they don't let you go into the school. Like if you if I had like as a woman if I had nail polish, they would kick me out. If my um my shirt was short, they would kick me out. If I was not wearing a certain head covering,

they would kick me out. And this happened to me like multiple times. If we were on campus, if we would like lay down on the grass, if women would lay down on the grass, the security would come and basically kick you out or force you to leave. Um but men were free to lay down anywhere they wanted. Um And like this was like a daily thing over and over again. That's That was something I lived with every single day walking through the street, going to university. I can bring up just like one of the more examples that really [ __ ] with me when I learned about it

of how women are treated by the police in situations where they are to be executed. Uh the it's apparently a crime in Islam to execute a virgin woman. And so what they would do is marry her to one of the police officers who would then take her virginity that night and then they would present the family after the execution with a body and a dowry for the marriage.

Um >> [clears throat] >> Yeah. Who does in the detail details are weird here. Does she have to consent to being married? No. No, she can. The marriage can happen to her. It's It's a rape that's just essentially sanctioned by the Islamic cleric. Uh for there there is a concept of temporary marriage in Islam where a cleric can marry you temporarily to somebody. And so they would temporarily marry her to one of their you know, officers and then have her raped and then it would be you know, by the will of Allah.

And then they would you know, execute her. One thing to notice is in Iran, women there is no need for women to consent. No one asks for their consent for marriage. It's an irrelevant action as it relates to women. >> ask their fathers' consent. So if I wanted to get married, my father would have to give me consent. If my father didn't consent, I was not allowed to get married. And then when it comes to um like a situation like what Amini was saying, that's where even your father does not have a right to say anything. That's when cleric clerics

have divine authority over your life to consent for you. And all women get This is according to textbook of Quran. All women get is the dowry. So it says you can marry your female slaves. By the way, they had slaves. You can marry your female slaves as long as you paid the dowry. No need for consent. And this is all when they execute when they rape and execute a woman. This is so that she does not go to heaven. That's right. She She doesn't even believe in heaven.

That's not even her heaven. No. It's It's their heaven. That right. They want to make sure she doesn't go to their heaven. Right. I left that detail out. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. There's a movie that I watched not terribly long ago called The The Stoning of Soraya M. Um it's a It follows this journalist who stumbled into this village who a woman has tells her the story that just happened as this journalist comes to this village of this um um this woman who was married to this man and this man wanted to be rid of her. Uh and this is not only just a story of just like the complete uh human rights violations that Iran has on its women, but also kind of that that corruption

backbone that I was talking about where this man needs needs to be rid of his wife. He just wants to be rid of his wife so he can go on his way, not have to worry about her, marry and marry somebody else. And so he goes to the the local mayor of the town, I guess is the right word. I'm sure there's a more precise word. Um but like mayor of the town and there the plots a conspiracy to falsely accuse his wife of adultery which he goes and does. Uh and then the town gathers to have a sort of courtroom uh which includes the woman's father uh and and in the movie the the woman being accused is like, "Oh, it's my father. He's just going to go along with whatever they say."

Uh and um and so she is sentenced to be stoned falsely after being falsely accused of uh of adultery which never happened. Uh she is she's sentenced to be stoned and her husband and her father and her two sons are given the first rocks to be thrown at her as she is buried halfway up to her waist in the ground so she can't move. Uh and then she dies in that scene. And that this this is a true story. This is a true story. Uh was happened to be told to a French journalist who was passing through the town the next day.

Uh and this happened in in 1986. Uh so 40 years ago, maybe Iran is modernized by then, but I'm not optimistic by any means. I think it's just a good a good anecdote to A show the brutality and the barbarism and the second-class nature of women as as well as this backbone of corruption where like okay, sure you have the laws of the Quran, but not even they matter at times if you know the right people in the right ways. Yeah, and you know what they need to prove that like that woman cheated on her husband? Mhm. You need two eyewitnesses if they are men or four eyewitnesses if they are women.

So a woman's testimony is half of a man. Mhm. Mhm. Let's get into modern times, current events. Current events. Um the Mhm. We'll talk about protest, but also I want to go through the kind of some some of the history of protest as well. There's been 16 major protest, I think if you go to Wikipedia, roughly over the last 45 years. I'm guessing that there also just are so many protests that like why document them all, but at least 16 protests that have earned Wikipedia pages at the very least. Um Ev- of those protests, every single one of them has documented killings from the regime in order to crack down and end and the

protests. Why do the Iranians continue to go out and protest over and over and over again when they know that somebody is going to die and it could be them? They they continue to just go out seemingly like a ritual every 1 2 3 4 years and protest again and have the regime crack down again. Why do they keep on doing it? I would say one is that even if you don't go out, there is no guarantee you're not going to die or you're not going to get killed by the regime.

Um the killings are so random. Um anything you do as much as uh like saying something on social media can get you killed. So there is there are really many ways that you can get killed and there's no guarantee that you won't be killed um if you don't go out. And second, I would say the situations are so dire uh that people feel like they have nothing to lose.

And there is no other way out of this unless you face it however you can. Um that and one thing is that I mean we knew the brutality of this regime. We were very much aware of it. But I think even though we knew it, we are still in this belief and shock of how they cracked down um on the people. Um I personally was shocked. I mean I always I grew up with my father telling me "These people are not humans. They are wild [snorts] animals that can do

anything. Like anything you can imagine and you cannot imagine they are capable of." But I was still in shock of how can you just shot a child like that is unbelievable in any world. But yeah, I think I think people do not see any other way. The regime shut down the internet maybe I basically as soon as the modern the current protests got large and the Iranian regime shuts down protests shuts down shuts down the internet all the time. And like some of the the first explanations I heard is like why does the Iranian regime shut down the internet? It's like, "Oh, well to prevent protesters from coordinating,

right? To to suppress to suppress information so like, you know, the the they're just people and they just don't have any information so it's it weakens the protest." Which is probably also true. Um I mean why do you think what what would you say to why the Iranian regime shuts down the internet? If you're about to massacre tens of thousands of people, you don't want these videos getting uploaded. Um you want time to be able to find everybody and try to mitigate as much of the media the distribution as possible. Um and they are trying to prevent anybody from the inside of, you know, contacting people on the outside. There's only maybe tens of thousands of Starlinks in the

country, right? Um I don't know, up to 100k tops, but uh that's not a lot of people. Um And and so all you know, that there there are reports for example uh you know, initially we were like, "Oh, maybe they killed 2,000 people. We're not sure because we we didn't have the internet." Th- these guys aren't dumb, right? They understand news cycles. Uh they understand our social media attention spans, right? And so they know that if they can concentrate as much of their cruelty into a short span of time uh where afterwards there is a limited amount of uh you know, dripped uh content that is coming out about it that

people will move on and forget. Right. So so like in a in a week or two weeks, whenever they decide to turn the internet back on new videos will surface and then and then people in the West will be like, "Oh, I I already heard about the Iranian massacre. Like that's old news to me. Let me scroll past that video." Right. And and the numbers, right? They they want to prevent anybody from getting an accurate sense of the scale of the atrocity, right? And so there there are like additional reports coming in from smaller towns where nobody has a Starlink that you know, say those towns were actually hit in some cases the hardest. Uh and nobody hears about it because they don't have any contact. Um you know, it's not

it's not like just the external connection with the internet is down. It's also the internal um connections between people uh are also down in the, you know, often times telephones. And so you know, the IRGC and the the apparatus the state apparatus is running its own intranet. And so they can communicate with each other and coordinate. Another thing I think is um stopping people from receiving information from outside world. Like for example the warning that President Trump sent um to the regime was heard by the people.

And one re- one motivation for a lot of people to go back after days was that there is this time there's going to be consequences for the way they cracked down on us. So I will go. Or they would receive like news of like, "Okay, this is getting attention. This is getting momentum. This is getting support from the international community. So we have a chance this time." Like that was what really drove people to the streets that they felt like they have a chance this time. This time is different. This time feels different. For months yeah.

For months they were receiving information about the Islamic Republic losing uh its militias like really getting weakened by like after the 12 days war um after the crackdown on Hezbollah. Like people notice things. People hear these things. Now they lost Venezuela. They lost everything. They're weaker than ever. So we have a chance. We are gaining support. They are supporting us. We are getting support from the President of the United States unlike any of the other uprisings in the past. These are really really important thing.

And another thing is that the regime really operates on propaganda. So when there is nothing going out and nothing going in they can control narrative in both sides. They control narrative outside of Iran saying that, "Oh, these protesters were not unarmed civilians. They were CIA Mossad CIA Mossad agents. They were armed. They were killing officers. They were shooting them." Um and then from the inside they can be like, "Hey, yeah.

I killed it. Everything is now done. You're not receiving any support. No one is coming to save you." Mhm. So, that is why they are like blasting on Iran state media that, "Oh, we defeated the US. We defeated Israel." After 12 days war where they literally lost the airspace of Iran. The regime lost the airspace within like, I think 2 days, if not less. On the other hand, in Iran on Iran state media, they were blasting something completely opposite. Like, "Look, we are burning Israel down. Israel is defeated.

We defeated Israel. We have control over everything. None of >> Complete 1984 misinformation. Yeah. So, when you are feeding people with that information, then you are basically uh taking their hope away. Yeah. That, "Oh, you're not going to win this. You lost it already." Do the people know? Like, when they see the Iranian broadcast of like, "Hey, we are burning down Israel." Do the people know it's like, "That's a bunch of bullshit." Or like, what what what what do you think? Yeah, people know. Yeah. Other than like, obviously the fringe that are regime supporters, religious conservatives, um or loyalists that I would say are very low percentage of the entire country, maybe like less than 10%. Other

than those people, the majority of the people, especially young generation, who is in touch with the outside world, they know very well. No one even watches their TV anymore. One of the things that we also saw was like, in the um the initial week of the protest, like, Reza Pahlavi, the crown prince, the son of the former Shah, like, his Instagram uh got like, I don't know, 80 million views on like, one of his videos. That's everybody. Like, there's 90 There's 90 million Iranians and like, maybe 10 million outside Like, everybody saw that, right? And so, if you're the regime and you see that, that that

scares you. Uh because then you understand that the people are paying attention to the lead, you know, uh who we have, you know, described the leader of the opposition, uh Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi, and that is a credit like, that is what they're afraid of. >> it's legitimate. Yeah. Mhm. And then and then when they cut off the internet, those views went from 80 >> [clears throat] >> I think it went from 80 80 million down to 35. Yeah, exactly. Few people in crypto put real skin in the game when they make public top or bottom calls. The DeFi Report is one of them. The week before the October 10th flash crash, [music] Michael from the DeFi Report emailed his entire newsletter saying he's going aggressively risk off [music] and sold the majority of his book from crypto into cash. This is when ETH was

about $4,000 and Bitcoin was 110. Michael runs the DeFi Report, an industry-leading research platform built on data, cycle awareness, risk management, transparency, and most importantly, skin in the game. We like Michael at Bankless. We like his analysis, and that's why you hear him on the Bankless podcast about once a month. And the DeFi Report is giving Bankless listeners one free month of access to the DeFi Report. So, if you're looking for some sharp, data-driven analysis to make better-informed decisions around your portfolio, you can learn why and how Michael called the top and what he's doing next, all in the DeFi Report Pro. Check it out. There is a link in the show notes. And then imagine at the same time that you do this in Iran, outside of Iran, they have their networks Yeah.

of regime what we call regime apologists. Um There are scholars in American institutions and European institutions. There are journalists. Um There are think tanks that actively push their propaganda for them. Um So, they try to dominate the narrative here, too. Mhm. I was I was told a story by one of my Iranian friends who has a relative who um is engaged to a Muslim man, and she was invited to hang out with him. She didn't want to cuz she knew the nature of this individual.

Um but uh it was brought up the Iranian protests were brought up while the three of them were hanging out, and it was said um by the her relative that like, can't remember don't know the guy's name, but like, my fiance, he says he thinks uh the Iranian protests are fake, and I I think so too. These two people are here in America. I'm not talking about people in Iran. This is There's an American Muslim and his fiance, and he is saying like, "Oh, yeah, the Iranian protest, fake. Not real." And like, my jaw dropped in that like, there's there's people outside of Iran who are also in the Iranian regime's sphere of influence and and control.

That That astounded me. Yeah. You know, uh there is a National Iranian American Council, NIAC. Um very famous. It's a nonprofit organization. Um but all they've been doing since their foundation, this is a beginning at I think they were founded in early 2000 like, treat up RC. And all they do is basically push the Islamic Republic propaganda in the West. And they have a really strong um influence and they have a lot of connections. So, like, for example, their journalists um

go write an article in Financial Times, in New York Times. Um they go do interviews at like, in like, CNN CBS um all of these BBC, or all >> help propagate the Islamic Republic's narrative in the West, you know, and and you can see videos of like, them talking and then like, uh the Islamic Republic people talking, and you're like, "They're saying the same thing." Yep. You know. Like, why would we listen to this guy? Like, um right in the beginning, there was this article on New York Times where basically they were saying exactly what the Iran state media was saying, "No, everything is okay. I mean, there were some protests, but they were in

lower-income neighborhoods, but the ski resorts are all open and they were full. Like, people are living their normal lives." Um and then we have like, some of them actively saying, um first, the protests are only for economical reasons. Right. And the economical reasons The economy is collapsing because of the sanctions. And who's to blame for that? America. So, it's all America's fault.

>> Right. Western imperialism, right? >> Yeah, Western imperialism, imperialist. Um that's their fault. And some of these armed pro like, the the protesters that were killed, they were armed. They were not killed by the regime for no reason. They were armed. And then you look at the list of the people killed, 16 years old, 17 years old, 15 years old, 3 years old, 5 years old. Are these all armed? Like, these are Some of these protests were like, family affairs. There's like, people with strollers and grandparents, you know.

Mhm. I know someone who's 12 years old child was shot in the eye. 12 years old. They were These These were like, going out with their families. How And and these are very famous talking points of the regime that these organizations and these individuals also blast here in American media. Why does the West, the the my sphere of of social media, so many people seem to be confused about Iran? And to me, as I understand it, the moral clarity

here as to like, what is who's on the right side of history and who is evil, is night and day. And I go talk to my family, I go talk to, you know, otherwise indifferent people, and they just don't seem to have the same sense of clarity that I have or or what what what you guys have. So, it's like, "No, no no no no. Don't forget about how evil the Iranian regime is." It's this period Why why are so many people confused about It depends on uh what your social media circles are, but um I'm going to make some assumptions here, and uh for a lot of the people who, for example, uh their identity is now wrapped up in uh supporting Palestine. Um they think

that the way, you know, Gaza is the most, you know, human rights disaster, it's a genocide, uh Israel is to blame, and therefore, uh resistance is justified, and we should not just be in pro-Palestine, but ultimately leaning in favor of uh justifying October 7th and uh siding with Hamas, and um once you have been indoctrinated in that uh you know, for 3 years, then when the Islamic Republic is seen as, you know, committing atrocities, you have this cognitive dissonance about, "Oh, well, these are the guys who are on my side because they're

supporting the axis of resistance, and without the Islamic Republic, then, you know, there might not be an axis of resistance, and so I should support the Islamic Republic, and that and the way I'll do that is I'll say the protests are fake, the protesters were armed, it's all Mossad, uh whatever I can do to live with myself uh for not having to treat this as a human human rights and humanitarian complete disaster, and and be consistent." Um And and then I mean, fortunately, there's like other there there there's a minority of which I find myself aligned with where where it's like people who I think there's a a Palestinian guy named John Aziz said something like being pro-free Iran is the most like pro-Palestinian you could position you

could take. And it's for us it's this obvious because we want, you know, peace in the Middle East, right? We we don't want the jihadis to continue doing the jihad and so we want the Islamic Republic to stop funding all the jihadists and doing the jihad so that we can have peace. And for us this is means, okay, well, we should try to figure out how to eliminate or, you know, overcome the Islamic Republic so that we can have peace. And that that I think a lot of people who have, you know, either guilt or suicidal empathy have, you know, they they hate the West,

right? And in hating the West they come to adopt these positions and they don't understand that like they are actually supporting the people who would take away their rights and, you know, their liberty and destroy the Western system that actually gives them the right to speak up about this stuff in the first place. There's a couple other vectors that I also want to identify here in addition to all of that. There's like influences to like how that came to be everything that you just said. One is there is a ton of Islamic investment into Western institutions. Not just from not from Iran but just from local Islamic countries. Maybe you could touch on that a little bit more and then also talk about,

you know, Iran sits right next to Russia and China and information operations, propaganda on the internet, astroturfing, bot bot armies. And then I have been as Bankless Sisters might know, I've just been very loud about Iran and I get these bots in my reply with the Palestine flag next next to an Ireland flag or a Palestine flag next to a UK flag and then it's all just like the same kind of form factor of like zero mutual followers, the same kind of I'm being called like a Zionist.

I'm not even Jewish. And like all of the same like all of the same sort of like profile of these people on Twitter on X trying to just like, you know, tilt the conversation, tilt the narrative. And then when I see, you know, these Iranians, Persians, anyone in the Middle East in in my replies is like, you know, 17 mutual followers, an artist from from California, somebody very tangible to me. And I'm experiencing this bot astroturfing first hand. So so talk about those other two those other two pillars if you can like the Islamic investment into Western institutions and just the information operations that Iran has invested in as well.

>> As you mentioned, the anti-Western and then this anti-imperialism and this oppressor-oppressed narrative. In this oppressor-oppressed narrative, the only oppressor can be the West can be America, can be Israel. And then everyone else is oppressed. So in that narrative Islamic Republic is part of axis of the resistant cannot be the oppressor and in any shape or form we cannot stop supporting them because they are standing against this evil entity, this imperialist entity that is America. Meanwhile supporting the Islamic that is anti-imperialist. But in fact, if you go and read the definition

of an imperialist entity is what exports power and influence into other countries, try to control their political systems, their resources, their movements and everything. And then it affects daily life of the people in those countries. And that's exactly what Islamic Republic does. Islamic Republic is an imperialist entity that has a Republican cover-up and anti-resistant rebranding and and the resistant rebranding. That's all it does and it's imperialist and it's just mind-blowing to me that people buy into those

narratives, especially people who claim to be intelligent and well-read and educated. So I I I was raised Muslim. Mhm. I went to an Islamic education center in I don't know Potomac area, Maryland, Rockville. And it was like a proper Islamic Iranian education thing, right? And like I only learned 20 years later I I hated it, right? My sister hated it. You had to wear a hijab. This is like in the suburbs of DC, right?

And like I would argue with them with the teacher. I'd be like, why is this? And he'd be like, God said so. And I'm like, I don't get it, you know. Piss people off and and, you know, had to learn a whole bunch of Arabic that I didn't understand. I still don't understand what it means. But I only found out later, like 20 years later, that my school actually has ties to the Islamic Republic of Iran. Mhm. Where I went to learn Persian in America has ties. And there are many such cases. A lot of the money goes through Qatar and there are all these Islamic studies programs that are set up. And so like in every

university there's some sort of Islamic studies program that is seen as, you know, promoting look at us. We're we're so cultured. We we have, you know, representatives from all sorts of faiths and we can study everything. And so they bring Islamic professor and then the Islamic professor it's essentially a political propaganda projects supporting all of the same ideas that these guys put out. And then we wonder why our college kids are you know parroting you know, Islamic talking like Islamic Republic and also generally anti-Western pro-jihadi talking points.

They essentially get a pass. This is the playbook that was created by the communist and so the KGB and the Russia they like essentially perfected the system and trained the Iranian the Islamic Republic in this propaganda technique and set them loose. And so now you have both on the, you know, like the the sort of Marxist type of studies and then you also have the Islamic studies and both are doing uh essentially anti-Western um indoctrination for university students.

And like there is this university professor at I think it's Princeton, Hussein Mousavian. If you can look his name up. He used to be a diplomat for the government in Germany and he got expelled after Mykonos I think terror attack in Germany. If I'm not mistaken and uh then he came ended up in America and now is a professor at Princeton. And if you look through his social media activities you think, oh yeah, checks out. You're

looking at Islamic Islamic regime propagandist calls Israel Hitler and Jews are Nazis and America is bad, America is awful even though he lives in America. And imagine he is a university professor who teaches people. And there are many examples of this at NYU, Columbia, Yale, like all of these universities. Um and they are not even like necessarily some of them are not even like Muslim or religious. Some of them are even not Iranian or have any ties to the region.

They are like Americans that are collaborating and pushing this narrative. I want to talk about the topic of Western intervention because there's a debate out there about whether the West should intervene at all, get involved at all. And I ran and I think first reaction that people have is like the idea of US of the US military engaging in a Middle Eastern country. It's like, no no no no. We've learned that lesson. We've done this in Afghanistan. We've done this in Iraq. They were both messes. People will say that we have plenty of evidence to suggest that military interventions in the Middle Middle East is a terrible idea and we should never do that again.

A quote that was was said to me was like, just let the Iranian people deal with it themselves. What's your reaction to this? One thing that I saw along with that line was Bernie Sanders reaction that had the list of demands from the Islamic Republic. I think what people don't really understand is that you are not dealing with a normal government. You're dealing with a terrorist mob. You cannot demand things from terrorist. Terrorist kill you if you demand things and if you raise against them. And they are armed to their teeth and they are not hesitant to use all of those arms and all of

those powers on their own civilians. So when you are dealing with something like that you cannot just stand here and watch and say let them handle it themselves. Well, they will be killed. Thousands and thousands what we hear from people on the ground is something above like 30,000 people killed. They killed thousands and if they have to, they will kill millions. They don't care essentially and they have their tools to somehow um just convince the Western foreign audience that you this is an internal matter. What I think people

don't understand is one that and then another thing is that this is not only affecting Iranian people. What the Islamic Republic does with exporting terrorism and extremism um affecting your countries too. It's affecting the entire Europe. It's affecting the UK. It's affecting America basically. So, it's not that they're only killing Iranians. They are trying their best to get to a point that they can kill you in other countries too.

If they can, they would and they have proven that time and time again. They have killed so many Americans over the years. They've killed Israelis. They've done terror attacks across the across Europe. Um so yeah, I think I think people are really um missing those points. What about this this notion that if the United States militarily intervenes, we tend to leave power vacuums? Like we just we're not good at nation building. Uh like again, we tried this in Afghanistan. We tried this in Iraq. Total failures. I mean, what would you say to this? I guess I'm hopeful. I I think Iran is a bit different. Uh it has a a strong nationalist

uh history uh unlike those countries. Um like if you look at the orders of Iran, like the Iranian main country has uh essentially been Iran for something like 2,500 years. Um and so it it was bigger uh you know, at some points, but the Iran was always there. Um and Iran is not uh it's it's dominantly Persian by ethnicity, about half. There's many different ethnicities in Iran and uh it's always been a multi-ethnic country.

Um and I think that one of the other advantages is that we do actually have a like opposition leader that has he is uh unequivocally the most popular person in Iran. Um out of any political leader. And that kind of support was not present in any of the other Iraq or Afghanistan. And the Iranian people themselves for the most part like want to essentially be part of the West. We are by and large aligned with Western values, culture and uh you know, society and want the benefits and um

it's not just that there are benefits for Iranians too. Like not only will the negative uh like the downsides of the Islamic Republic go away. Like we like if Iran uh if the Islamic Republic falls, it will stop exporting jihad into all of the neighboring countries. Uh you know, and Iran as a secular country would help uh heal all of the neighboring countries by promoting the secular factions within the neighboring countries. Um and so there there is a huge amount of potential upside to be had.

Um would it be a mess? I don't personally, I don't think so. I mean, look like we we said before, the Islamic Republic is not going to go quietly. Uh and so for that to take place the reason that people want intervention is cuz largely Iranians are unarmed. But if Iranians were able to secure their own future, then I think we would be essentially responsible guardians of the region and help represent Western interests in the region. I have a couple points. One is that people tend to look at unsuccessful interventions, but there are so many examples of successful interventions.

America intervened um in South Korea. Uh intervened in Kuwait. Successful. Um American Revolution happened because of foreign intervention of France. French supported American revolutionary to the brink of their own collapse and destruction. So, that these there are so many examples of successful interventions. Another important point is that people tend to paint all of these Middle Eastern countries with the same brush. Iran is very distinct and different from other countries in the region as I mean said in terms of the borders and the history

and cultural demographic is very different. Like for example, if you look at all of these countries around the Iran like Afghanistan and Iraq mainly, the countries that America had presence in. Um They are very new. Iraq was created after World War I. There were three provinces, Mosul, Baghdad and Basra. These provinces were used to be under Ottoman Empire, but they had their own local governing bodies that was designed based on their demographics.

They were like Kurds, Shias, Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims. And then when Ottoman Empire collapsed Britain took over and basically drew the borders on the map regardless of the power dynamics, social dynamics, like the ethnicities that they were living in this region and basically set like they Hashimite king King Faisal that was not even from Iraq, was Saudi.

Um So, set him as like the king. Um so, that was a difference and then Afghanistan um was not only like uh became was not only became a country uh became a country in 1700s, but also culturally is very different. Like something that I hear a lot um from um people like activists from Afghanistan is that unfortunately what we are dealing with is that um there is this huge population in Afghanistan that also um have alignment in terms of mentality with Taliban.

We do not have that in Iran. Iran's population is very educated and people with like conservative mentalities um are in minority. The majority is extremely educated. We have the highest percentage of educated women in the region. Um so yeah, Iran is extremely different. We have a national identity as I mean said. Like all of these ethnic groups have been living in that region for thousands of years and they share the same history with Persians. So, we all they don't look at themselves as oh, we are not Iranian or

Iran is for Persians. No, they are Iranians. Iran is like America before America. You know, it was like the multi, you know, ethnic federalist system. Like the the Shah was called the Shahanshah, which means the king of kings cuz you're the king of all the other kings that you know, essentially ancient federalism, you know. Mhm. Um But yeah, uh I I I you know, another example. It's like should the allies have stayed out of World War II? It's like uh UK, France, good luck. Mhm. You know. >> Um oh and another thing is that Islamic Republic like I mean, Iraq was not successful. One reason was Islamic Republic's uh presence in that region. Um the regime really fueled sectarian wars

in Iraq and destabilized Iraq more than it was. So, bringing down Islamic Republic helps other countries in the region as well. Yeah, that's actually a great and under underappreciated point. I want to expand on it just a little bit. But like what she's talking about is that like part of the reason that the Iraq operation of democracy failed is because the Islamic Republic of Iran filled the power vacuum. Uh General Soleimani, no relation, was going around and like recruiting all of the Iraqis and essentially managing all of Iraq. And he would like call up the American, you know, generals and be like "Yo how did you like those

you know, IEDs that I left on the street? You know, by the way, I run the country. So, anything you want to do, go through me." Right? This is the guy that Trump blew up uh six some years ago. Um 2020. Yeah. >> Yeah. And so, like it's not a comparable situation, right? You cut the head off the snake and the other pieces fall in place. I think the Iranian diaspora is something like 10 million people, 8 million people, something like this. Something like that, yeah. An incredibly successful group of people wherever they go. As I mean as you said, like highly educated. Fantastic entrepreneurs.

Just growing the Persian culture, that Iranian culture where wherever they live. Uh I'm sure they want to maybe not move back home cuz maybe their identities now wherever they live, but I'm sure they want to be able to go back home maybe in the same way that Jews are so grateful that they have Israel as a place that they can go home to and be amongst themselves. Talk about just like the relationship that the Iranian diaspora has with with Iran. So one thing is that again goes back to our nationalistic identity even though this is a this has become a loaded word recently, but we have a national identity and

we are really proud of that and we will never forget that. So the reason this group of like successful diaspora left Iran was the Islamic Republic. The because like for example, I was educated at a university. I stayed at a university that was called the MIT of Iran. It was a great school. But I had to leave and 95%. This is not a made-up number. This is a number that the university reports. 95% of the graduates from our school leave Iran.

And the reason is that if we stay giving the situation that Islamic Republic has created, we won't have any future. But otherwise, we do not want to leave. Like if we had a more stable country with a better economical situation, it would be something like before the '70s. Like you know, people would come to America, study, and then go back. A lot of like all those university professors were American educated and would go back to live with their family in their homeland.

So yeah, like I mean that's what we want. That's what we are fighting for. And hopefully we'll we'll achieve that and we will have the option as you said to just go back even if you have like people come here to study. There are a lot of Iranian students here at really great schools in America. Um they would go they they would go back to Iran to join their family and build a life back in their homeland. Sana, I mean I've learned a lot on this episode. Thank you for coming on and educating me and and the audience. As we come into where we are today, we are there are as I understand it, there are still occasional protests.

Maybe they're more. We wouldn't know cuz there's an internet blackout. What are you guys hopeful for in the in the near term? Like maybe for January and also just 2026. What what are you hopeful we can get done here? I hope that America delivers its promise because a lot of people inside Iran are waiting and with no exception, anyone who gets a connection and gets a message, their first word is, "Are they going to help us? Are we going to receive help? We are unarmed. We cannot do anything.

We need help. This These are like hundreds of messages that I personally received from people in Iran. So what we are what I'm manifesting until the end of this month is America delivering its promise which I trust they will. I trust the words of President Trump and the fact that he will deliver his promise. So that's what I hope I see first and then hopefully soon enough after that the regimes weaken enough that people are able to take back the country.

And we are going to start 2026 and the Islamic Republic and its dark legacy be gone forever. That's I I echo that um this is what the people want. I mean it might seem shocking, right, to an outsider to say like the Iranians the first thing they do when they get internet like are they are they bombing us yet? Uh but they know that like they don't have any other paths to you know, regime change in a way that they achieve their goals and their freedom.

And so you know, it might seem crazy. I don't know like there was a 12-day war with Israel and a lot of outsiders were saying, "Oh my god, like there were civilian casualties and there were and it's uh you know, nothing erases that and that's it's tragic when it happens. But there was like 500, right? And so something I think that's like the most that's the highest compared to something yeah, right. And and like the on the other side it's like 40 of the top generals were blown up in the first two days and like several other of the most you know, of the higher-ups in the IRGC and like a lot of their equipment was was destroyed.

Um And so it was like 500 of of their top people. It's like how many Iranians would have had to die in an uprising to get those guys, right? We we saw tens of thousands die for ultimately, you know, just going out into the streets and chanting. Uh and and so for Iranians, we know that uh this is the the the path the path to get to freedom that is is you know, the least amount of bloodshed total and you know, they're desperate. They you know, what would love to pay back this debt in a free Iran one day.

And and the resources would be put to much better use in a free Iran and the wealth created would be astronomically higher and all of us, you know, we have a a little chat room you know, in the Iran Unchained group. We have you know, we're like East Tehran 2020X. You know, we're we're like one day we will go and we will throw our conference and like the the upside here is that a free Iran is going to be like the most baller country ever. It would be the country that most recently paid the cost of its liberation and takes its freedoms like completely seriously. And like I say this and it's like blows the minds of some here. I'm like maybe one day like we'll have

European refugees from like places in Europe that are no longer safe for Europeans because they have let in the same you know, Islamic fanatics that we as Iranians were all running away from. When Iran is free, the Islamist narratives narrative is going to get destroyed. Um for a very long time and get very weakened. China is going to be affected. Russia is going to be affected. These are Americans' competitors. And if um there is there there is this group of Americans that rightly so, they care about where their tax money is go and they are really unhappy that their tax

money is going to Israel. Well, why is that? Because Israel is on their attack by the Islamic Republic's proxy. So if you destroy that, you don't have to send your tax money to Israel for protection. That's really important here. That that is some galaxy brain analysis. >> [gasps] >> Um I mean Sana, what what do you have as a request to the listeners? If the listeners feel inspired, motivated, want to help out, what are some ways that they can help achieve this outcome?

Um I think one of the very important things that we are also trying to do these days is just raise your voice no matter how small your platform is. Speak up, share the news, and make sure that you do not fall into the regime's it's everywhere. Um just follow some sources of information from actual Iranians that have lived in Iran and are trusted sources and just try to amplify their voice.

That is really important. We are fighting we are not only fighting like with the Islamic Republic, we are also fighting with the Islamic Republic's propaganda and that is very important and it really affects public's opinion. And we need that. We need the support from the public. So that would be a huge help for us. Uh follow Sana. Uh retweet her posts. >> does a fantastic job doing exactly what she just said on Twitter. That's where we found her and she was an incredible guest to have on the podcast. So yeah, follow we'll put uh Sana's Twitter in the in the show notes. Uh thank you so much. Check out uh IranUnchained.com.

Uh we have a list of a couple resources for both fundraising to get you know, Starlinks into the country to help establish connectivity as well as you know, other like the US lobbying program. The other other donation um sources that you know, I think will have a positive impact as well as a couple different news sources that people can use to stay up to speed. >> I think we can also ask the listeners to send this podcast to someone. I think we did a great job actually, Sana. I mean, thank you so much. This was the podcast that I wanted to produce.

And so if the listener has made it to an hour and 39 minutes into the podcast, we request that you send it to someone and ask them to listen to it as well. Thank you so much for having me. This is really invaluable work and I hope like everyone watches this and send it to anyone I can. Thank you David for being vocal about this. It makes us feel a little less alone. Yeah. >> So, we appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah, we truly appreciate every voice. And [clears throat] I I look forward to going to Tehran.

When we all get maybe we'll all we'll all go together. Yeah. >> See you in free Iran soon. Next year in Tehran. Well, this year in Tehran. This year. This year in Tehran. Sana, I mean, thank you folks so much for coming on the show.