The Interwoven Appchain Thesis with Initia

Transcript

what is Anisha should we take Anisha seriously probably not I'm just kidding also are you officially part of the rollup now I am I am no he's not unfortunately okay yes what's going on guys welcome back to the rollup welcome to a chain exraction paloa where we just wrapped up an epic one-day marathon in the heart of New York City diving deep into chain abstraction with some of the top teams in crypto trust me this series is packed with insights laughs and a few surprises you won't want to miss shout out to Network for helping to put this together with their upcoming main net soon targeting the interoperability and ux problem that we're currently facing in the ethereum and majra ecosystem we really enjoyed this series and looking forward putting all this content out

there let's jump right into today's episode after a quick word from some of more awesome Partners who make this possible birex Edge is now live on say Network say users can now trade 50 plus spot and per markets with the unified order book liquidity of vertex Edge across arbitrum blast mantle and say the next 6 weeks 850,000 SE tokens will be up for grabs as trading rewards every single week exclusively on say join vertex on say Network now on fex edge that's fex protocol.com

[Music] cartesi is your home for app specific rollups at the Forefront of developing new tools and platforms that enhance the capabilities of blockchain Technology cartey enables applications that are flexible and built to scale build on a full Linux environment and use traditional software libraries but in blockchain development go to ci. that's cy. to learn more about building your own app chain today all right we're in New York City with Zan um Zan I like your Crocs thanks man they're uh they're a staple yeah quite comfortable are

those nfts you got on them or is that those just random no they're just just random jbits we got some Shin Ramen a dinosaur Hello Kitty um just all my favorite things you know yeah why do I feel like there's such a strong Asian influence in Ian his brand like a care um we do post a lot of anime content yeah right all of us in crypto are are nerds so and incels sometimes so that's the content we like and then uh a bulk of our team lives and works out of Soul okay and so yeah don't you hop there like a decent amount I'm there maybe 3 months out of the year and I'm going there next week for KBW oh nice I heard it was kind of mid last year I didn't go last year so you are you going to token

as well I am going to token too nice you yeah I'll be there not going to go to k KBW though you like Korea I don't want to go to the initia headquarters no I'll be a menace there we we made 300 bottles of initia branded Soju I saw that is that's alcoholic right that is alcoholic I've not been to Asia so excuse my uh my young uh and I questions Florida mans Florida man Asia that's right that's right well cool man I you've been on the rollup before a couple times um and just recently I've been starting to get questions from ethereum ecosystem builders in different rollup clusters if you will unnamed ethereum e go to builders saying what is

Anisha should we take this seriously and so my question to start this whole thing is off should we take initia seriously probably not no I'm just kidding um I I hope so I mean it's really left up to like Builders and teams like we're obvious going to try and put out the best product we can and it's up to each individual to look at Anisha and see if it's valuable for them all right can I try to pitch inisha and then you correct me on everything I got wrong okay sure okay thises wait also are you officially part of the rollup now I am I am no he's not unfortunately not wait okay yes he's wait no he's not no this is my interview I guess I'm not um no yeah all right I

just got demoted that's fine um I am now CEO of Anisha so uh so at Anisha we have built an L1 specifically focused not for users but for rollups and in many ways we took the technological learnings from ethereum over time and uh built that ground up uh in the chain itself am I a good CEO of Anisha or am I a bad can I jump in there and add and then you'll give us the response so also I think taking the best parts of the cosmos and IBC stack and putting them in the rollup ecosystem disclosure I investor in inisha I'm bullish on Zan bullish on project but my idea is basically like they you guys built this ecosystem at a

time that like ethereum and Cosmos both kind of already went through these pitfalls so I feel you took the best part of of ethereum's kind of rollup landscape me mixed it with IBC and basically gave the properties of like liquidity designs of almost like proof of liquidity at the L1 to where and the incentive mechanisms for the kind of L2 and brought this kind of all together in a in a pitch Austin was much more concise but that is like my addition I love Parts out so how so all it is is it's a network for interwoven rollups that's what the answer would be if you were the inish CEO but luckily I'm not the Nish CEO Stan is Stan is what a guy that guy yeah good lad but so I can I

can chill for a bit longer essentially initi as an hour for interwoven Roll-Ups what we did is we just holistically rebuilt how multi-chain Network should work um by taking some of the best learnings from Cosmos and the flexibility of Cosmos SDK the rollup Frameworks on ethereum and then ensuring when we have this modular expansion and this rollup Centric future that we don't face the same cluster that we have right now of like liquidity fragmentation user fragmentation and user experience that exists within those Landscapes as well as build like a robust economic framework that kind of ties it all together and make sure that value is flowing in the right ways and so how we did that is or how we got started is essentially I've been a

longtime ethereum user um I was also a builder within Cosmos Cosmos was always the most flexible stack to build something unique that's why you have things like dydx spare chain osmosis because you can change the way transactions are ordered the way that they're processed like how the chain actually works the problem with Cosmos is is a few things um first is it's difficult to build layer one you have to bootstrap a validator set you have to deal with token inflation you have to run all these IBC Rel layers the second is IBC has uh pairwise dependencies so if you are moving over IBC from chain A to B to C versus a to c directly you get two of the same token which is horrible

for liquidity um and Cosmos Hub never became like a router for this system and then as the ecosystem evolved it wasn't really guided well and so you had all these teams trying to become hubs and Adam was never really influencing the entire system kind of on the side I feel like osmosis is like probably the most obvious trying to become a hub of Cosmos with the trading and I think like noble kind of as well from a certain angle with their asset issuance I'm less first in Cosmos that's kind of my understanding aren't you building a cosmos chain we use parts of Cosmos okay evm on Cosmos no yeah evm beside

Cosmos um I'd agree with those statements like osmosis became the liquidity Hub Noble's trying to become the Hub in a sense through asset issuance the regular Hub can just go die off essentially yeah that seems to be consensus at this point like and then on ethereum on the opposite side you essentially had the system that was built for token transfers right and vitalic recently said like in his Ideal World like there wouldn't be no defi on ethereum yeah which is crazy he basically said like the entire L2 landscape was built to for the purpose of like sending tokens and that means there is no design that came into play of like what about transferring between these like what about liquidity

fragmentation how does liquidity work and so we appended this rollup system for the sake of scaling these transfers and the state that we're in right now is you have these op stack and these arbitrum orbit chains that give you the exact same copy paste Fork you get literally the same thing and all you can do is play with the solidity environment or change like the gas token but obviously there's no flexibility or customization and then everything about like how those multiple different chains come together has to be done by Third parties you also have to use third parties for bridging oracles uh data availability like you're never going to get a na native stable coin access and so inisha basically said let's combine

some of the best bits of both of these and make sure that we glue it together in the right way without having to invent like a new token system or a new messaging system like you can use the best bits of all these and so I know I didn't end up describing it is no but you describe all the problems of everything and but that's kind of what I was getting at is like you guys the best parts of different projects that you've seen before you and I think we were on a space about this like it's advantageous for you in in the time that your launch is happening because youve been able to learn from the experience of others just like in 5 years someone's going to learn from the experience of you whether you guys do very well or you'll be deprecated in 5 years is what it'll be

over for us no but I mean it's just this is this is this is how Tech evolves um but kind of our Focus here has been chain abstraction which I think you guys are doing something pretty cool like you guys have this like initial wallet that you know users can kind of go and use and it's much better for L1 and L2 within the initial ecosystem than it is for like on ethereum or on Cosmos in terms terms of like operating the chains talk us through like how the how chain abstraction is applied in your vision and uh and in the initial system and just kind of like your vision for making it super easy for people to interact on chain yeah yeah so I'm going to slightly answer your question but first answer a question that I just want to talk about which is go ahead awesome go off Z so

essentially initia is a layer one right that's built for RO abcentric future and then a system of layer twos that are full-fledged Cosmos chain so change whatever about the chain and they operate in evm mve VM or wasm VMS whatever smart contract environment you want the point of building this in tandem is that we can make the architectural choices that create this seamless world of like you have asset fungibility across all of this and now I think architecture stack is just one piece of the puzzle right you launch a roll up on Anisha you get native usdc and CCP layer zero IBC uh oracles like da everything's just enshrined and works you don't have to use any third parties it's just there focus on your app and so the second piece that comes on top of

that which relates to your question is like what does the product experience look like and the way that I often see this is that I think rollups on ethereum right now are a lot more like the Android thesis you have this infrastructure and then you can put all these different types of systems into play whether that be like which interoperability solution you use how you use oracles like wallets all that sort of stuff and initia is a lot more like the apple design design Concept in the sense that we want to have some first control over the architecture stack how it works and guide it so that we know it's going to work well as it scales and the second is we want to have some control over the biggest product pieces so what it looks like to connect to Wallets on all of these different

layer twos what does it look like to bridge around all of these layer twos and how can we evolve that over time to create this chain abstraction environment so I think chain abstraction is is interesting for the ultimate user experience where like you don't have to deal with all these chains but they can all be Sovereign they can all change things about them I think personality for chains though is very important I would hate for chain abstraction the vibe right yeah Vibes matter what did did no see John tweet that or I think I was talking to him about that as well he was like dude chains have Vibes I think it might have been mark from layer Zer was like chains have Vibes users want to go where the Vibes are so I think it's like a spectrum of user preferences but like still can you answer the question

about how what was the question like like like how have you built Anisha in such a way that CH like that the user experience is just better than Cosmos or ethereum like why is it why and how I'm angry so I think um one of the things that you can easily point to on ethereum is like as a user that uses defi we know how to like bridge to a layer two but as a new user it's insanely complicated because there's like 10 different Bridges like five different aggregators and all these different WAP tokens so you can have usdc on arbitrum and usdc on optimism but they're not the same

thing and how you transfer between them like you need liquidity pools or you need intent systems or you need something like cctb and so just simple stuff like that is going to be a huge problem for like adoption in the long term and so that's what inti's architecture takes care of but what the product does is it just like sits on top of this to help remove that experience so on inisha right now despite what VM a layer 2 is in you can connect any evm wallet Cosmos wallet or inapp wallets I'm like a rabby maxi so I'm not going to use Kepler unfortunately yeah um the very good team though disclaimer uh the second is just how you

move around all these systems right if we can build those interfaces we can essentially scops users into believing this is just how I send between applications rather than I'm actually doing bridging I need to figure out like what token I need to be able to send it where I need to do it and one of the things that powers that interwoven experience is in shrined liquidity so we have this system on the layer one where we stake in it xlp tokens directly with our validators so things like in it eth in it usdc in it Tia and what that does is If it creates a Hub of liquidity one that's very accessible to layer twos it puts economic it puts assets to work in a

productive manner to secure the network and three as you're moving from Layer Two to Layer Two you can essentially like send usdc and get eth on the other side and there's like perfect amounts of liquidity to be able to do those forms are validators staking these LP positions yes so you're building uh dare I say bar chain yeah it's bar chain so bar chain has but it's interwoven it's ran bar it's uh there's definitely some inspiration I'd say they did a very good job with proof of liquidity um it works a bit differently because you farm bgt on a DEX and then you stake bgt with validators we stake actual LP tokens but ours was really inspired by balancer which had governance power derived from

8020 bwe pairs but they just never got great idea yeah it's funny how these defi Legos we were talking about like some of like lack of Innovation over the last I don't know two three years but it it like I find that some of these defi Legos or like these like cool Primitives they're now being used in systems like this that like don't seem to be so like you know but they're still very impactful I mean like a funny story from that like originally when we founded this company we were building interest rate derivatives there were multiple companies that were working on this element was the one that had raised the most all of them pivoted except for Pendle Pendle stuck with it for like literally 2 years of just like very marginal uh traction and then points and

then points and this thing ripped and so I think uh you know back then we almost saw so much leaning into defi Innovation that the types of instruments people were trying to create were beyond what the maturity of that Financial system at the time could support and now we're seeing like funny little like like we pivoted from interest rate derivatives um but now we're seeing it mature to in a weird enough way like points have introduced like this as like okay the first like product Market fit of interest rate derivatives was points um so yeah it is kind of like interesting seeing that like like come into these new systems yeah but it's just like on Builders to take these ideas and like Implement you know because it it's going to it's you know it's going to be hard to do another zero to one like that just

have to put them in productive use cases like I think be chain realized that like liquidity is like just a massive part of any chain and then we realized that this type of system is perfect for multi-chain networks to make like moving around them just as seamless as possible and like asset transfers as seamless as possible so as a user am I ever going to use the L1 or am I only going to implicitly use it if I'm like swapping from tokens from implicitly use it there can be applications that are built on it but the way that we see this system scaling is each application being its own chain so that you kind of isolate the throughput requirements and you don't congest the base layer one it is really interesting thinking about the architecture of this in context of the

ethereum ecosystem right now now I think there is like very recently like uh a strong pull to try and push functionality back to the L1 we're hearing about things like uh we were talking about this ear like based uh based app rollups uh for example and really using like pre-confirmation and trying to pull stuff back into the core L1 Network so I feel like we just externalized so much and now it's kind of questioning people are questioning what the business model is but now what do you want the L1 to be there for and you want it for liquidity security rewards and like asset issuance just making sure that everything all these layer twos have

everything they need it's basically like a asset provider the layer one basically exists to support all the layer twos and then execution which is like what the scaling is needed for can be pushed off to each of them Everclear is pioneering the clearing layer the clearing layer can almost be thought of as splitwise when you go on a trip with friends but for the blockchain what I mean by that is when users are sending cross chain messages there's often times fillers and solvers who have balances left on different chains that they need to rebalance and reset their positions this is where Everclear comes in ever is pioneering a collaborative approach to the chain abstraction future and they are willing to work with inoperability

Partners solvers and other providers in the space to build a interoperable and chain abstraction future check out Everclear ever clear.org and welcome back to the Lup let's talk about the apps where are the apps when apps is there any apps so we got some apps yeah Anisha is the is the result of its apps like there's mishas yeah there are minisha Minas how' you guys come about that name it stands for mini inisha okay and then the entire system of mishas plus inisha is omisha omisha and you guys just dropped minute swap min dropped minute swap minute swap because um you can swap or Bridge as fast as a

minute but I realized that a minute is too long yeah so might have to that just SW yeah okay so talk let's talk about the VIP yeah yeah let's talk about the apps let we get into VIP a bit okay so the apps one of the interesting things is if you think about modular world you you don't think about any apps you think about infrastructure yeah real quick how is your right before the apps how is your per of the modular World change over the last N9 months just be brutally honest yeah I think um obviously the two modular projects that did launch outside of like Das quickly went to zero and that's because they had no emphasis on like apps they're focusing on their infrastructure but all this

infrastructure only exists to make apps win so apps should be the the main Forefront of everything we're trying to push and Ina's infrastructure and product is just there to like hide all the complex stuff like apps are the reason people are going to go use these things and that's what we care about pushing and so I think modular world not to be uh not to gloat but I think like all every app in Modular land is essentially building on the interwoven stack okay okay so now let's get into these apps okay so I think uh there's a few things about building these initial ecosystems one is if you look at the launches of a lot of l1s that have

happened in the past couple years you've seen that they focused on either having a large amount of apps like we have 100 deploying on us and then it turns out these are all unv2 forks no one cares the second is cannibalizing your own ecosystem by onboarding apps from other ecosystems so you bring over something like pancake or sushi you have your users Farm those tokens and drive tvl away from native applications like unfortunately no wealth effects are going to be created there and and some of your community is going to die so rather Focus your effort uh your rewards and like your time on trying to help new teams that are committed to you long term just go out and win um and then if you look at successful

ecosystems you see that all of them have been built around like a couple of interesting novel Primitives that gain traction and then things got built around them so arbitrum stuff like uh GMX and like magic Dow optimism VOD Drome and synthetics they all had like native apps that did well yeah like bar chain has this awesome cohort of like really unique stuff and so we knew that essentially that is the way to create these initial inflows because people want to go do something that they can't do elsewhere right like a landing Market's not going to change that and so that has been our goal as we've built uh or looked for teams to build on the interwoven stack and so we have a couple of cool ones the first one I'll talk

about is Blackwing they are essentially a protocol that lets you perform Leverage trades on any asset on any chain with a full deck and chain abstraction experience so if there is a token that makes it off pump fun is on radium I can go long short if there is something on Thruster on blast I can go long short something on osmosis the same so even if that coin doesn't have liquidity on any other per decks you can still trade leverage on Black Wing on a random memein or random defi coin or anything yeah you essentially collateralize the lp tokens to then use it to perform leverage and so their layer 2 is essentially an intent Hub

with a system of solvers around it that then goes out and makes these trades on behalf of users and you don't need to know you don't need to have these different wallet types like you're just trading these shck points yeah disclosure I also have I invested in Black wom I really like the team what's going on um I mean no this is just how media is this days I mean I you can't I just I'm doing it you know all right what's the second one does he have bags in it too he I hope not yeah I don't I don't think I do he's getting into oven with the ecosystem yeah Andy uh is kingin of he's CEO of initia actually CEO okay let's give us a unique one they really another one I like a lot is called contro okay they built this thing

called the glob like a clob but a glob glob real good word stands for gradual limit order book and essentially what it does is it slows down the time of markets for for order books so that you're not competing on the time Frontier and this was he's been cooking this for basically 2 years now and it's specifically built for prediction markets which is a very timely thing um and essentially one of the problems with prediction markets is that they're very susceptible to front running because things like uh poly markets they use these liquidity pools if I find out information sooner than someone else I can snipe all the remaining upside and then I win but the glob essentially removes the time element so if you find out something sooner than someone else

or a little bit later it doesn't matter cool I can still be directionally correct on the BET and still make I was talking to a prediction markets founder he said that's one of the biggest problems right now is that if you get the information or like something somehow the information isn't related to the prediction Market you can get out you can like exit you know just get out before everybody else and then there's not like you know there's no liity left or whatever okay cool just so like the the clubs haven't really got that much adoption in defi clubs like Central limit order books radium okay fair enough tell us about another cool app that is being built in the an ecosystem yeah so another one that I like a lot is called cisha they're essentially building this fully Perpetual onchain

game that's basically like a coordinated game of Monopoly where basically users can like roll dice they land on these properties they can buy them as they buy them they're entered automatically into a group chat with all the other owners then you have to create a bunch of strategy with the other owners to either reinforce your houses or sabotage other houses and becomes this basically Perpetual coordination game as people continue to play with a bunch of interesting twists and turns I think that's just going to be fire for like new users to come and have fun yeah um very cool welcome aboard on our journey into the singularity this is the endgame road map for fra and fraxel the new L2

out of the fra ecosystem that is totally based on fractal scaling fractal is a modular L2 blockchain built by fracks with modular and fractal scaling in mind fractal scaling is based on the mandal BR set of fractal images and it explains how l2s become l3s and the entire app chain life cycle goes through its Evolution the FRX ecosystem is made of some of the top builders in the space and has stemmed from its OG days of the frax stable coin it is now in the LST space the LRT space and this fraxel L2

joins the existing Suite of fra products including Frack Swap and fra lend you can see fra fairy the bridge to go from any chain arbitrum optimism or main net into the fra main net Bridge your tokens and bring your FRA assets into the fractal ecosystem join today to get the best out of fraxel you are still early join today take part in our Expedition into the singularity so one thing I want to ask is I know you guys have done a really good job building up traction on the test net and I think you guys uh I mostly think of

crypto like it is a very I saw that chart go down I like wait no don't worry don't worry you guys were up here like uh there but you guys so points obviously got farmed to death we all like know that at this point like there were a number of mechanisms to like build up initial Community engagement on these test Nets uh tell us about the like Jenny thing because to me this was a very interesting example of like riffing off of existing mechanisms enough that like it was distinct and you could actually create Community identity to a certain degree uh but also Al like having some elements of Prior things so that people understood how it worked so like tldr explain how uh you coordinated the like test net uh to get all these

users in there yeah we built it okay coordination was easy but essentially what we did is like for a long time before inisha launched right we had been working with teams that were interesting and unique building on the interen stack and we essentially wanted to ensure that this problem doesn't happen where you go out on Main net and there's no application so even on testet we wanted there to be a bunch of fun stuff to interact with and play with show off how inisha works but really use it as a a way to push engagement to these layer 2 projects like I said our entire goal is help these layer 2 teams win and so we understood that points are a good way to do that but they're frankly boring and so we built this onchain game of

tomagotchi essentially inspired around Jenny which is Stanford's dog so what users did was they put together a bunch of different Exodia cards by doing some tasks on the layer one summoned your onchain pet and then by doing Secret challenges across all the layer 2 applications that existed they earned some points with those points they could then buy food through a bunch of different Lottery machines so really the final result is based on some luck as well as usage and then you could upgrade and evolve your Jenny over time so it's basically just like a a fun Interactive way to push people to explore the ecosystem without telling them exactly

what to do get a bunch of feedback and create identity around Jenny and do a cool Evolution process where people are excited to show that they've evolved her yeah yeah when I like started reading into this I thought it was pretty clever not to like shill you too much but uh it was clever I also saw a lot of the Jenny dogs in real life after this multiple like many of them like dog like like the dog like the face of the dog I saw it everywhere like once I like once I was like seeing all the initial stuff and seeing the testet and playing around and then I was walking in real life I'd be like I started noticing Jenny's everywhere at least we get in your head man yeah uh last thing for from us as we wrap test Net's done what are some of

the big learnings for you and kind of where did we go from here yeah so testet was great got a bunch of products out layer 2s had the opportunity to to test their stuff with real users get real feedback I think now essentially we're just gearing up for mainnet launch uh which should come in in the next little bit uh pretty soon not going to lie and essentially just ensuring that we have everyone aligned in terms of timeline so that we can go out launching with a suite of teams on the inter Roman stack use that high attention period of Genesis to push users to these layer twos and then ensure that VIP and andrine liquidity kick off with a bank sweet cool well thanks on sick thanks for having me yes sir