Interchain Privacy with Adrian Brink of Anoma

Transcript

we are live I'm Seth 3.0 and today I'm speaking with Adrian Brink who's the co-founder of anoma and we're gonna be diving deep into anoma and namata these are projects that I have yet to really fully get a grasp on and like today I'm hoping to get to the bottom of it and like put a put a nail in this coffin once and for all uh so we're gonna be diving deep into anoma and the Mata how they work and I'm also dying to find out why Adrian thinks that what we're currently building isn't actually gen 3 of blockchains but still in gen 2. before we get started please make sure to hit the notification Bell hit the like button and subscribe to get notified when new live streams start every week my guest Adrian Brink is coming up next

right here on the interrupt [Music] hello hello sir sorry there's some weird noise going on like someone's drilling something through the wall right now how you doing good yeah I know can't complain Kearney not traveling anymore so we're happy to like sit at home and focus yeah no I definitely feel that as well uh I just got home yesterday and like I've got a couple more trips in the next

like two weeks but yeah some some short ones so yeah but yeah um yeah maybe what's your I mean before we start like uh what's your take on everything is going on with um foreign I'm so surprised that FTX collapsed um I have to say yeah I didn't yeah I I didn't think they'd be running a massive Ponzi scheme in the order of like 10 billion dollars um that always seemed somewhat unlikely like with like Luna we knew three years ago kind of when the terror white paper came out that this was like an algorithmic Ponzi scheme effectively that at some point was going to go to

zero right like people read the paper and they looked and thought about this for a week and we did this in the customer's office back in like 2019 in Berkeley and we're like okay this is going to go to zero at some point um with like three arrows and now with FTX it feels like you know no one did any reasonable amount of due diligence like people just like why are the billions of dollars and we're like yeah you know what's the worst thing that could happen we're giving a 29 year old in the Bahamas two billion dollars to run a cryptocurrency exchange yeah yeah so I don't know this seems like we should really move away from centralized Finance institutions um and I'm hoping we're getting there

next year actually yeah I mean it's it's like it's insane that like collectively the industry has you know in many you know like defies is significantly large right and like but it's it's saying that as an industry you know so many years in you know people are perfectly fine with like leaving their money on centralized exchanges and um you know getting into these like kind of leveraged uh uh you know sort of activities on exchanges with like little transparency and it seems to me like this is what D5 was meant to solve uh you know but in the meantime we've sort of rebuilt the same systems as in traffic but only you know

now it's with crypto so I would say actually the problem is currently we can't solve this in defy like we can't build something like a centralized Exchange in the current generation 2 architecture of blockchains um like what you mentioned in the intro song I think very applicable here would just and what blockchain like when you look at most modern applications what check what they actually need is decentralized counterpart Discovery because we don't want to settle everything consensus and sort of unisop is the most gas efficient way to do kind of party Discovery in consensus but when you think unlike someone wants to have an Autobook exchange um someone wants to have large multi-six large like multi-party voting systems or second price auctions kind of these kinds of things

they don't need to all not every individual action needs to go to consensus right we need to like you and me want to trade and we like sign our messages and then we net this out with 50 other people and then we submit this into some underlying settlement system this is the right model to build pretty much any dab right now without centralized backends um and so this is what we're building with our normal which is why I think soft and by the way we're not the only people like in the next year there will be more people building this kind of architecture but if you want truly decent price applications this is the thing you need you need decent first counterparty discovery and distributed solving uh to enable this kind of intense Centric model where users user don't send transactions they send intents to other people effectively

yeah and so in the model you're describing like a lot of the uh so in the current Paradigm of blockchains and the way we thought about blockchain so far going back to bitcoin everything everything is settled on chain and there's this transparency uh of uh traceability of like State transitions but what you're describing is something where a lot of the activity is happening off chain but it isn't settling or proving back to some sort of a shared um some sort of shared data set that we can already kind of yes um it's I think still well fundamental in this like in all existing systems we've always thought of transactions as the most fundamental unit right it's like a user interacts with the system

and they send a transaction um this is what how you interact with unisoft is how you interact with Ave um this is incidentally not how you interact with openc or optimism or stock net um but so if in the current gen 2 model everything is a transaction users are supposed to sign and submit transactions but transactions imply that users have access to the entire State change but when I want to trade some Bitcoin against eth I don't have access to the counterparty I don't have access to the guy that takes the opposing side of this trade so I don't actually have a transaction that I can submit into consensus and have ordered and settled somewhere I have an intent like I have a thing that if you combine with other

things we can combine into a solved solution and then submit as a transaction and I think this is really the model we're heading into because you see this is like what is a roll-up a roll up is just someone wants to go from State a to State B and another person wants to go from State B to C and so what individual users do they sign over their partial State transition so they're intense and then the rollout sequencer takes all these intents and does some compute and so like you see this everywhere this is always the same model ninety percent of all dapps currently have intents but they have an architecture which cannot express them so we always fall back they're like oh we have an architecture that can't express intense and they can't really deal with intents because it doesn't

understand what an intent is so let's build this back-end server run by the openc company um to do this and then we're centralizing all this and I think sort of FDX is way more centralized than this but this is fundamentally the problem that it's very hard to build truly decentralized applications right now yeah okay so let's let's get into this intense Centric uh you know model and so you know we we we're gonna we're gonna talk about a Noma because I think it's you know it's the foundation upon which Nevada is built so you guys are built you guys have been building anoma for some time now and you're soon going to release like the first layer one that leverages at NoMa

um so I wanna I wanna you know first look into how these two things are related but then I want to spend most of our conversation actually talking about namada because I feel like there's some I I think like there's some kind of uh confusion around what anoma is but once we describe the product I feel like it's going to be clearer but first like I want to read the description of a Noma on from the documentation okay so like it says enoma has a protocol designed to facilitate the operation of network fractal instances which intercommunicate and can utilize varied State machines and security models a fractal instance is an instance of anoma consensus and execution protocol is operated by a set of network validators and almost fractal instance architecture is an attempt to

build a platform which is architecturally homogeneous and with a heterogeneous security model thus different fractal instances May specialize in different tasks and serve different communities privacy should be a default intent uh should be default and inherent in the system we use for transaction Adrian what the [ __ ] does that mean okay so I'm almost innovating on a lot of different areas let's say this way and so trying to put all these things into a single sentence is quite hard um but let me try and unpack this a little bit um the first thing to understand is anoma is an architecture um it is not a specific blockchain a Noma is a fundamental architecture it's a protocol um and sort of the way we view the world

is the world is going to be multi-chain um and there will be many different security models right like some people care about these two Global Security some people want to care about global Bitcoin security other people will care about their local 15 people in their Village Security Mall um other country other people will want to like be in their country in the National Security model um and the Noma is an architecture that can be deployed to all of these so like you can deploy normal as a global L1 which is what we're doing we're also working to deploy normal as an L2 to ethereum um I spoke to Charlie uh Freeman shrim yesterday about deploying anoma as an L2 to bitcoin um

if a country wants to take a Noma as a protocol and like run this for their financial system I'm happy right like because from an end user perspective what we want to enable is that users get homogeneous architectures as in people don't have to always rethink how do we how do they interact with these systems they should have the same apis the same guarantees um the same feature set available to them because as a result you can like take your phone and roam between these different security models because like the end user applications always talk to roughly the same kind of architecture but we want different security models because different people care about different security um right like my parents will never trust globally too they trust their local 15 people in their Village um and so we should enable

um homogeneous architectures but actually security models and this is sort of just on the deployment side um and sort of then oh yeah go on sorry I'm fine no no so I wanted to ask someone about this like because I read this in the paper and so the heterogeneous architecture means that we all share and on sorry homogeneous architecture means that we all share the same architecture for building you know other layers of abstraction on top but we might have different ways to reason about security I mean that sounds great but already by building a Noma you're creating a space of you know by adding another type of architecture it's just contributing to the heterogeneiosity of of heterogeneity of architectures because they're creating like a new

architecture and also I think in a lot of you know there are a few things where we have truly homogeneous architectures maybe tcpip and the internet was like a really good um you know uh like we basically uh achieved uh homogeneity there but for a lot of stuff it's not the case like even mobile phones you know in the US you have one standard and mobile phones are very homogeneous like I bought like six different there's like six different standards that's true but like I bought this phone in Switzerland and this works in China the US South America um and all of Southeast Asia right like I don't have to keep switching phones um passports are another good example

actually actually of homogeneous architectures like we have one Global passport standard but many different security models in which you can use it um in different countries with different security models so it's like it's a very convenient kind of thing and like most of the internet is a homogeneous stack as well all the way from TCP all up to https um yeah email us another thing like email also homogeneous architecture like it makes our life very convenient the problem for example with like current messaging apps is that they don't have a homogeneous architecture so we're all stuck in this like why do I have [ __ ] 15 different messenger clients I don't know because wants to do their own thing um yeah but Ben Thompson talks about this uh I I also listen to web 2 people and he talks about how like the SMS

standard should have been expanded to support like messaging apps uh and so that all the messaging apps could have used the SMS standard just the like the same way Gmail and all the male clients use uh you know SMTP or um you know yeah and then you know have features that are built on top but that always kind of comes back down to SMS for interoperability between the different um 10 different apps yeah um yeah I I feel like homogeneous standard I don't know what are the qualities required uh or the things that are required to create homogeneous standards but it feels like involvement by state actors maybe is a thing that might be common to all the things we've talked

about so far I don't know like I don't know like how do we you know when I look at this required when I look at like something IBC um I actually think the right technical protocols end up winning a lot of the time in the long run um just because they become the easiest to use over time um for example like um maybe like you mentioned this earlier why are we building a new architecture mostly because we like currently we have two types of architectures in the blockchain space we have scriptable settlement which is everything like Bitcoin Bitcoin Monero Z cash this is all the same architecture Litecoin uh Monero um it's all the same thing right

um slightly different but roughly the same category of things um and if you end up in this kind of world where like this is sort of the granularity in terms of how many people have shared architecture I think we've already sang to win the touch and then we have the second generation programmable settlement and this is everything from ethereum until a normal effectively this is like near Avalanche Solana this is all the same thing it's an imperatively executed VM that does sequential smart contract calls that's it um but when you actually look at what people need like people don't need we don't need this imperatively executed VM um not to build through these centralized applications because what kind of applications do people use they use things like openc they use

things like Xerox and in all these models people individually sign messages that they send to some so um this is generally in the case of openc one server New York in the case of Xerox is some relayer in the case like this also applies to like all the Roll-Ups optimism and stocknet people sign a thing they send it to a server this even applies to flashbots so it's always the same model people don't have transactions they have some form of intent that they sign um and what our normal really does I know my generalizes this idea of what is a generalized intent how do you this how do you do decentralized intent gossip how do you have economic incentives to keep gossiping onwards and then how do you have solvers hook into this intent

gossip to figure out oh these three things want to go on the roll up they should be in a roll-up these three things want to go into an open C trade let me put these three things into an open C trade um the problem is for the current architectures like Gen 2 they're just like due to the architectural deficiencies we always end up in these like centralized models where it's like someone has to run some AWS web servers to make the actual dap work and we're trying to hide over this fact um but this is true from all the roll ups to all the gaps currently on ethereum where things at some point there's a web 2 server that does the thing and in the best case it can at least not steal your money but in the worst case they can definitely censor you

um and yeah so by the way I also think there will be many architectures like anoma so I think to me homogeneous architectures would already be fine if you just end up in a model where it's like many a normal like things they don't have to be a normal one for one to one they just have to look like a normal roughly with an intent Centric model because it's the thing that allows us to build through decentralized applications okay so you know maybe let's I think one good way to think about this is to compare it to the existing model so let's maybe walk through you know like the the existing VM model the transactions flows and like you know you mentioned like the transaction is the

um the transaction is the main thing um that that folk gets focused on in in the VM model versus the enoma model like yeah maybe like draw a picture of what these two so then we can move on to namata yeah um at a very high level um when you think of how currently ethereum Mexico transactions it's a user signs over the imperative execution Trace right they sign over sort of an array of op codes that are that they think is okay to run um and then these op codes get to change the state so users sign over what they want to happen as they sign over the how not to what

um and then the system runs the how and sort of the what is an end result that the user had no idea like the user what do you mean by the the how what what's the how as in like every individual op code that gets executed right like in current like when I send an ethereum transaction I sign over opcodes this is what I'm authorizing I'm not authorizing a specific State change I'm authorizing some execution flow um and all these systems do exactly the same thing this is horrendous from a ux perspective because I as a user have to audit every single op code um and I have to know exactly the right execution flow to interact with my counterparties or with my other contracts um in the anoma model on the other hand the model is users sign over the what as

in the sign over what state change they're fine with like in the abstract it's like I users in state a and user signs over the fact that he is fine if if his account goes from State Agent State B so if a more specific example is a user currently holds a Bitcoin and they would sign over a state change that says I am okay to hold 100 if if I hold zero Bitcoin um and so they sign over this and then the system can figure out how do I satisfy this this could be then there's a hundred counterparties this could be this one counterparty this could be there is sort of a cross-chain message involved but the user doesn't care right because the user just said I'm okay with this future State um and as a result uis can display like

my this is matters the intuition that people have when they sign things like when my parents think of like sending a transaction they don't think oh I'm authorizing these five up codes to do a thing they think oh I want to buy an nft kind of thing right like they think about what's the final thing that I want um and so this is sort of how a noma's execution goes incredibly different from every existing system and once you have this kind of Base where you say people signed over State changes instead of execution flows you can say okay now users just don't send transactions directly they send intents um and we got these intents around and you can have sort of then you can have I have polka dot for Adam you have Adam

for eth and someone else's Eve for Adam this is generally not settleable except when you take all three together right so we initially sign our intents as in this is what we want um and then we gossip them around and other people in the network can figure out oh these three things are combinable this is also how Roll-Ups work like without normal you just get on-demand Roll-Ups because if I have intent from A to B you have in 10 b2c see a third person can just generate an intent from a to c and just dust the compression effectively so this is how the animal model is very radically different but makes building applications significantly easier um because when you adapt developer currently you have to think on like okay

I have to run the server in the back end there's some counterparty Discovery so that all these people know how to who to trade with I have to run a solver that combines all these things that are separable and then settle them in a normal you just have to Define your intent format and the application like the dab on chain and then the entire intent gossip the networking the solving all of this is just taken care of for you so like your job is adaptive I'll become significantly easier and oh the last cool thing is as adapt developer you can build new dapps on existing daps in the sense like let's say that two nft marketplaces in ethereum they can't they don't share order flow because the order flow hits a central server like they hit the

exchange a central server and the exchange B Central server in anoma none of this autoflow is proprietary like it just hits the intent gossip Network um so I can build a new exchange front-end that leverages the order flow for these other two things and by the way I'm using here exchanges and trading as an example because it's easy to understand but anoma is just general it doesn't know what an asset or price is it just knows some State a can go to some State B and it checks that this is correctly signed okay that that's a lot I mean so but there's a few things that I want to get kind of clear up here because I I think I mean it's unclear to me I think it's unfair to a lot of people so like

you know a Noma it's it's a it's a it's a standard it's like a specification it's also a code base so there's actual like code that's written it you know for people who are coming at this from the you know the the Gen 2 um Paradigm would you say that anoma is kind of like an SDK that allows you to build blockchains in the same way that like the cosmos SDK allows you to build blockchain um no anoma is more of a application platform um no it is not blockchain so like you can take it it's not a blockchain you can take a Noma and deploy it as a

blockchain like it's an architecture you can also deployed to other things but so for example we deploying a normal as the first Global L1 um and this is sadly for now still called Global Noma maybe over time you change the name but uh there will be a blockchain that implements your normal protocol um sort of coming to you sometime next year um and they are their developers can deploy applications that leverage this kind of intent-centric design um so it's it's less like a cosmet SDK it's more like it's a blockchain with which you can do things it's not a framework in which to build blockchains but on the other hand if you World of Warcraft and you want to take this blockchain run this for your local community go ahead Fork the code base deployed with your

own valid data set launch your own token for it I'm happy about it because all these instances are interoperable with each other using IBC okay so uh when you say that a number will be deployed as a blockchain you're not talking about Nevada you're talking about something else yes uh we okay we launched two we're launching two blockchains okay um audio Foundation is yeah so anoma will be a blockchain on which we'll be able to launch other blockchains on which you can deploy applications well on which you can double applications okay and namara is a another blockchain that is separate from this other anoma blockchain on

which you will be able to deploy applications but that leverages anoma as an underlying infrastructure um not exactly so it it's going to use the same consensus because there's something we haven't touched on yet we're working on something called Typhon which if you're familiar with tenement it's effectively tenement two it's like what tenement should be upgraded to over time yeah it allows you this capability to have on-demand charting that you have two blockchains that run in parallel and they run completely independently but if there's a large overlapping validator set you can have synchronous blocks between these two chains or between any number of chains um and so we're calling this is a practical instance so there's a global

NOAA instance and then if the world will work with people take their own instance um and deploy it then you have two anoma instances two deployments of anoma um that are fractal instances um but they can interoperate they can have synchronous blocks via typhen they can exchange IBC messages my hope is that over time the tenement systems also upgrades like osmosis also upgrades to to typhen which would be cool because then you can have sharded things between Noma and osmosis and things like this so this is uh Innovations on many different layers of the stack okay I think I think I'm starting to understand like the interplay between both uh so and then maybe like like namada is just

interchange acid agnostic privacy is going to be the sort of best privacy Set uh best privacy preserving system which is launching like we launched test Nets this week um and it's probably going to go live like January next year okay so let's talk about namata and we've already been here for 25 minutes but oh wow yeah let's um let's let's dive in here so what is namata so did the you know the website says Nevada as a previous take L1 for interchange asset agnostic privacy um I read that as it's a privacy preserving blockchain in the

same way that you know we have like Z cash or maybe something like penumbra or like it'll offer sort of similar properties and features um yeah what's this different about namana and like say I think penumbra is like a good because we've also had you know uh Henry on like two weeks ago but um yeah what's similar and different between anoma and so yeah um right like is really namata is built on top of tenement um it's a custom State Machine written in Rust um and it leverages your knowledge proof so it leverages an extension to the

sapling circuit applied by Z cash called the map of The multi-acid Shield pool um plus the convert circuit which is a circuit that we wrote by hand um namara is very simply put it provides a unified a shielded set for all assets on The Interchange as in you can take your atom and you can take your osmo and you can take your eth and to die and your crypto pump and they can all live in the same shield with set so an external Observer cannot tell the difference whether you just moved around one atom one nft or one die um or one osmo so to an external Observer there's a complete in the signature which acids you're touching um and this is sort of something that

has never been there before I think so namara is closest to Z cash except that it's proof of stake um with acid agnostic agnostic features are with the fact that it's asset agnostic as well as incentives for the shield of pool instead of it lamara to me is really the it's like the obvious extension in terms of privacy technology that we should be building to provide end users with very flexible privacy guarantees like zcash always had the problem that you had to opt into Zack um and like I don't want that I may care about atoms or eat or die like I want unified privacy guarantees for arbitrary assets um and then when you look at things like Aztec internal cash on ethereum um they have definitely very expensive

and they generally don't have unified privacy sets as in I as an observer I can tell whether you like moved some ether around or you moved some die around um and as a user I have to be careful about how I pay transaction fees because I have to pay transaction fees in eth and in Armada you sort of get the best of everything you get a sovereign proof sake L1 uh that is acid agnostic where you can pay fees in arbitrary assets as in we're using the F1 reward distribution system that Chris and Dave from osmosis wrote up back in like 2020 uh that says it never got implemented in the hub but it's like it's an automatically compounding um theme system that can receive they can use arbitrary assets for fee

payments um yeah so this is very quickly no matter and then to a number of number tries to do a lot of things they try to be like private proof stake private governance um everything private um and hamare is much more tailored it's as privacy preserving transfers uh for arbitrary assets So when you say privacy preserving transfers that that's the core utility is is that meant to sort of sit in between like let's say you want to move some atom over into osmosis when you say privacy preserving transfer does that mean you're just kind of sitting sitting in between that transaction such that it is obfuscated or is there like another

utility users can use this in a number of different ways so users could for example users to pay for coffee privately right like you can use usdt and then actually pay for coffee every day privately using the Mata um it could also be that you have some atom and you want to sort of generate a clean address where this is linkable to you pre to your previous addresses in public what we all currently do if you have this utility need we go through centralized exchange like deposit to crack and withdraw through your new address from Kraken right this is also something that namata enabled so you could like take Adam send it to you no matter send it around in Armada withdraw it back to the cosmos Hub onto a clean

address that is not linkable in number you can do this with penumbra as well like when we talked when I was talking to Henry he was mentioning and yeah I think this is going to happen also work forever penumbra um the other thing you can do is you can also in V2 use shielded actions so with an armada you can also um you're going to be able to uh execute transactions on other systems over IBC yeah so that for example because we figured out that we can generate unique nfts for actions so for example your LP position in osmosis pool can just be a unique nft on Armada and when you want to do an action you move this nft on Armada and then the chain over IBC execute some action on your behalf on

osmosis um and then V3 is probably private Bridges so that we can connect penumbra and Hamada for like unified children yeah I think the the the the the note the idea of being able to sit inside within within a private system and control assets outside the private system I think is like one of the most interesting use cases for this stuff and when I was talking to Henry I was like wow that's like it's so like basically you can just kind of sit in the shadows execute your transactions um on say Cosmos or osmosis or on other chains and there's no way to trace back like actually who's executing those transactions and how they're related to

each other I would say not sit in the shadows I would say like get the price the same privacy guarantees as the traditional Financial system um like people should not be using blockchains right now like you leak everything um yeah and like I don't think people realize this yeah like where does the intense centricity manifest in this because like when you're describing this it just sounds like a blockchain where you're just like making transactions as we are used to but so namata is an intense no this is namara it looks very similar to a traditional blockchain um except that it comes with incredibly good privacy set of features um the intensentricity that kind of

generation three architecture really comes with anoma um and like there you can do fancier things and I know why you'll be able to do fancier privacy preserving things like uh you have an intent and you only partially reveal this to the world and then someone partially matches against this intent at the intent gossip layer um and then this still ends up being settled on some underlying system so like a normal really comes with intense the Mana just comes with incredibly good privacy grantees okay I'm more confused now like think of the matter very simply like think of Ramada as the single best privacy preserving blockchain to have been launched um effectively

it's it's going to be the single best practice reserving system it's going to like fix them fix the sort of shortcomings of zcash the shortcomings of technical cache and Aztec um and do all of this on The Interchange so that you can bring arbitrary assets from your own blockchain to not matter um but if it's using a Noma why isn't it intense Centric and a bigger question if this is like your whole spiel about how you know gen 3 blockchains to be intensity Centric why isn't it matter not so um for like actual dabs uh things need to be intense Centric um for simple transfers they don't necessarily need to be 10 Centric because the transfer implies that have

all the Soft Data available to make the transaction on chain so really you can think of namada as the first payment or like as a privacy preserving transfer system within the a normal ecosystem and within the wider interchange ecosystem but this doesn't mean that Nevada is saying 10 Centric intent Centric only really comes into play when you want to do more complex things like trading um or like like dolls kind of like Bitcoin like Dallas or like nft marketplaces then that's when you intense electricity with Armada it's really just do you like it offers you privacy guarantees for asset agnostic transfers so you can't use Nevada to build applications or write contracts or

anything like that it's just it's asset transfers yeah I mean over time the chain may get upgraded um so this is quite possible um but I think um sort of at launch the software you're currently working on it's going to be very specifically focused on transfers okay oh and another cool thing about namara it's coming with a convert circuit um which allows you to receive rewards for holding Assets in the shielded set for longer um and you receive them privately as in you can deposit eth into the shield set and then the mod as a blockchain May issue you rewards based on how long you hold your eth in the shelter and these

things aren't locked like you can withdraw them at any time and when you withdraw them you can just claim your uh rewards the swing but all of a sudden you have like because privacy is probably good and now we can actually build incentives around giving um like providing public goods funding in fact if you're by providing um rewards to people that contribute to this public good so what's the incentive then the incentive of leaving your assets in there is that your CR your uh allowing or reducing the ability for actors to look at transactions coming in and out and determining you know like finding some sort of correlation there it's essentially like looking at tornado cash

and analyzing incoming and outgoing transactions if you incentivize people to leave liquidity there it somehow obfuscates those um no it just provides incentive so providing incentives in a shielded world is very hard because you generally don't know what's going on so we had to write a new circuit to allow this and even then you're still fairly restricted um the benefit of having more Assets in the shield pool for longer is that technically all these assets form a single shielded set um so as an external Observer you can see what's in the shield set but you can't specifically observe what's split in the Shields and you can just see that something is in this back in this like dark this like blue back full of assets so if there's only like one asset coming

in and then like then I take it out and then you come in and put you acid in that provides but much weaker privacy guarantees and so this is why their incentives to hold things in the shield Etc so so this is the multi-asset shielded pool so it's like a pool of assets you like you go in with Adam and you come out with like osmo or something you know because you have no um okay so it doesn't it doesn't like it doesn't trade right like it doesn't mix things like I put an atom in and I can only take my atom out um or I send my atom to you and then you can take that atom out but it's not like I put an atom in and then I take it out an osmo instead yeah okay this is just a it's a very simple feature set to not

like a one-to-one all of D5 makes privacy very complicated um and like when I look at people in the real world most people don't have the desire to trade [ __ ] coins most people have the desire to like buy coffee um so namara just as like privacy preserving transfers well so tell that to all the people who are on FTX um okay so so then what is what is a multi-asset shielded pool there because I think I was confused about what what that is um think of sapling right like sapling the zcash circuit yeah sapling is a single asset I'm like Vaguely Familiar with so think of this in with the sapling circuit you can have a blue bag

that has egg written on this or that could have some other acid written on this but you can only put in a specific asset and you can only take out a specific acid and so you can instantiate this over and over again and this is kind of what to neocash did where if you had like one bag full of Ethan one bag full of dye but an external Observer can see which back I'm interacting with whether I'm interacting with a dieback or with I'm interacting with a sec back so they can tell that I'm moving some die around or some ether on or some Zach but in the multi-asset chiller pool all assets live in the same back and so I can even put a housing nft or crypto pump in there and I can move this crypto I can like send the scripted Punk

to you um but an external Observer can't see whether crypto Punk moved around or some eth moved around so effectively in a multi-asset chill pool um the high value but low volume assets inherit all the Privacy guarantees from the low value but high volume transactions like it's the right thing it's the right way to design privacy preserving systems because you sort of get defense in depth that um external observers can't distinguish with which asset classes you're interacting with okay uh did I blow your mind I I'm I'm just trying to yeah like I'm

trying to build a picture in my mind of like all the different pieces to this and I'm struggling I'm still struggling to do that so no matter very simple like you can move an asset over IBC or over the two-way trusses ethereum Bridge into Nevada now you have an acid on the model no matter comes with um cubic slashing which is a c pass a cubic proof of stake which incorporates cubic slashing as well as modern F1 feed Distribution Systems um and then within Armada you can do transverse effectively you can do transparent transfers as an I can send some atom to you and you can then take them back out over the bridge of IVC or I can send you some eth and then you can

take them back out of the ethereum bridge but then you also have the capability to move the assets into the shield pool and so I take some eth and I put them into the sugar pool um and then maybe I buy coffee with this and I keep paying for coffee in eth but an external Observer can't tell like they just see that someone is interacting with the shield well that's it and then when I'm done paying for coffee I can take it back out and submit it back to ethereum and even can submit it to a complete new address on ethereum where none of my previous coffee payments are now correlatable to my Ethan ethereum or any previous thing I did on ethereum um this is sort of at a very basic level between do with Armada sort of in V1 and in V2 you will be able to control other

systems other chains using them other effectively so you can imagine you can have open an osmo pool log participate uh put in a LP position up in osmo and osmosis from a model okay yeah maybe let's talk about launch phases here uh Chris gave a talk at CK Summit in Berlin a couple of months ago and he talks about these three launch faces so there's like The Sovereign chain for asset agnostic privacy which is what we've been describing so far and then there's like phase two which is bridging uh to other privacy chains like Z cash penumbra a Leo um which we've had on the podcast uh Lau as well and and then later there's

private Bridges yeah um and then there's the sort of next phase so V1 really is um ABC based Bridges um and a custom two-way thrusters ethereum Bridge um and the multi-asset shield tool V2 I think is mostly going to end up being shielded actions as in private actions on other chains over the connections over the IBC connections and V3 is then Bridges to existing systems to existing privacy preserving systems and then V3 and a half sort of as private bridging um because the nice thing is once you have private Bridges you get unified privacy sets so like once there's a private

bridge between Armada and penumbra and namara and alio it is very hard to determine where assets are currently being moved around um so you get you get a very big privacy set and this is also why we're very interested in building a privacy preserving bridge to zcash because zek so far has by far the best practices set yeah uh to talk about this uh this this trustless ethereum bridge how do you how do you achieve that so trustless in the sense that you don't have to trust the third party right like when you I mean oh no right we spoke about this and sort of what my controversial takes are and

before we started the podcast um when you generally when most people currently think of bridges they think of things like oh I'm bridging via the cosmos Hub or I'm bridging via Wormhole and I'm reaching my acceler and I would always call these things trusted British because I've taken after that I would that was issued on let's say chain a and I want to move to chain B but if I move it via Wormhole or axilla or the cosmos Hub now I also have to trust those systems I have to trust the people that routed my asset because they're in my trust path um but when I say trust this bridge I mean you only trust the chain that issued the asset and the chain that you're currently on so with the ethereum bridge and Armada of course you have to

trust the theory because ethereum can inflate your eth so ethereum can make your asset worthless or seize assets right there's nothing preventing um this bridge from ethereum doing arbitrary things to its own assets um and once you have this eat ornamara you only have to trust the matter because the bridge is fundamentally run by the Nevada validator set so it doesn't Bridge via some third party where now oh I have taken this eat from ethereum to axilla and then to nomada um because now if axler fails your money is gone right like this is important to understand even though you have no interactions with extra for most of the time I mean that's also true for the cosmos Hub but even if those systems if those third parties

failed your assets are gone and so when I say trust as ethereum rigid means you only trust the system that issued the asset in the system that you're on um and so distrust minimize I mean it's trust minimized in the same way that IBC is trust minimize exactly the systems you're on but you don't have to trust the bridges yes it's exactly the same security assumptions as IBC roughly uh this would get easier once you have like times for ethereum And also the ability to verify in a matter of tournament like lines on ethereum um but the other cool thing but trust me in my spirit sorry trust minimize Bridges uh require uh instant finality right like you need to have finality guarantees to have

trust minimized Bridges bridging um if if you can implement this why couldn't we implement the IBC so um effectively what the mara does so namara makes a different assumption I'm not every number validator also has to run a full ethereum mode um as in okay um the Mata Valley is effectively finalized um ethereum and if they ever are wrong about like some block getting re-arged they are slashable for that wrongness on Amara um this is something like every chain could theoretically do this right now um like osmosis could just say that all the values need to run full ethereum modes and then you have the exactly the same trust as two ethereum Bridge um this the requirement to run ethereum

full notes for an amount of validator goes away as soon as we have um so IPC verification uh or like Fast finality on ethereum of ethereum or no matter okay um so so the the the barrier for validators is on the Mata is going to be say higher than like your regular round Cosmos chain because yes you always have to run ethereum full nodes and but the nice thing is this architecture gives us the ability to bridge to systems that don't have Hospitality so like the way you bridge to you know something like for example Z cash is you also have all the no matter allergies runs the cash flow notes um same like how would you bridge to

Solana you'd also have them run uh Solana phone notes like the system is very flexible um I'm personally an IBC believer um I mean Chris is the third co-founder of the bunch here so like the IBC Maxis to some extent um but the this kind of like Bridge architecture gives us the ability to um build Bridges to systems that like in a trust minimized way that don't currently support IBC natively um over time I hope this all goes away and we can just use IBC because then the Nevada values lives get easier okay so no validators have to run full zcash nodes full ethereum nodes at launch only Theory emotes don't worry

all right okay this is Dominic right um hmm that's interesting I mean as a validator like on a couple of Cosmos chains like that's a huge uh notes on that batch run yeah if you can run a tender man funnel you'll be fine um yeah I mean you do have to sync them and you have to have like this space a lot more just space than say like yes it's not free but it's like um it's not an order of magnitude it's like 1.2 worst or something like this um this is I think so my take on this um but as a result you get the ability that like onomata you get eth which is fully backed by no matter

okay and then there's there some kind of like when you're bridging assets because it's not instant finality there needs to be some time to finality or to like high probability of finality and so therefore there might be like a delay yeah so like how does that work with e 2.0 because like with eat one like with proofs proof of work ethereum you know there is um there is like probabilistic finality but with E2 like I'm not quite sure how that works yeah uh with these two you should actually be able to use the uh eth2 finality guarantees um and this is something that we're going to upgrade as well um over time so like currently I mean the way you do this for eth is you just assume it's a 200 blocks it's not that

much it's like five ten minutes or something like this um but like if you if there's ever 200 block reork on ethereum then yeah the system of words because every exchange will have lost all their deposits I think sort of cracking weights the longest at 30 deposits for Eve um 30 blocks for each deposits at least 40 but yeah something like that oh funny yeah yeah it's like somewhere in this or like 200 is very conservative um so you have some delay there and then going from no matter to ethereum you also have some delay because you have to get the transactions into the blocks one nice thing is that you can pay transaction fees on Armada for the relaying so because going to from the multitude theorem I'm going from any system to theorem is relatively expensive because you have to

verify a bunch of proofs on ethereum unless you sort of Outsource this to some trusted third party like Wormhole who like hides the costume users so what happens in Armada is individual users can pay transaction fees and then the relayer can that submits this to ethereum if this gets executed on ethereum can claim the fees back on the Mata so there's economic incentives to have a decent place relaying from from the model to ethereum um which is also cool no one has bothered building this either we all just hope that IBC packets get relayed for free um because currently execute executing IBC packages like very cheap but for ethereum this is sadly not

true so we need you need some sort of economic incentive to relay packets from um some system to ethereum so like this idea of running a validator is running full nodes if it's so easy and if it solves a bunch of stuff if if it reduces the dependency on Bridges like Wormhole or axle are why do you think other Cosmos chains are not doing it like why isn't osmosis or is that like evmos or like chains that have a clear incentive to be able to bridge Assets in and out also implement this and I suspect that a bunch of them will take our code base and effectively do the exactly the same thing um there is of course a development overhead um like we've spent easily nine months

building this I think this is important I don't want to have users rely on sort of third-party Bridges but they think they don't have like they don't realize it's in their trust model so I think this is sort of a choice that we've made which I still think to this day is the right choice um the yeah this is like one thing to you need to remember about I think the team building anoma is it's a 40 people team or 45 people team that has been building layer ones for like four years five years at this point um there are very few teams that sort of have this kind of technical capacity and Technical depth to build like very complicated systems in terms of

interoperability guarantees I think like without Chris I probably wouldn't be attempting this either um the stuff is bad as we've seen yeah yeah uh so I want to talk about this cubic proof of stake and also maybe the governance because yeah let's talk about the governance first so the the docs mentions this off-chain signaling mechanism and an Unchained voting mechanism what's the idea here um yeah so this is Jenny true for all systems every system will have an off-chain mechanism right like if this entire system holds

it is usually some social recovery in our case we've just made this um added this into the client so that when there is a need for off-train coordination because the system holds it right you can't use the blockchain for coordination anymore um at least you can still use the same keys to sign your messages and you can receive signed messages and have your client verify the signatures from other people so that instead of just having tele unauthenticated telegram messages floating around on how to reset the chain you can have sort of cryptographic guarantees on the people that are sending you these messages in Social recovery um have steak have skin in the game they're staked on the previous of the on

the halted version and from for unchain um signaling it's people can vote on proposals they are simple text-based proposals um you can do also some automatic parameter upgrades using wasm um and so governance or validators can um yeah you can users can effectively propose changes and upgrade this chain this way I think one other interesting thing about namara is it comes with a I think we're calling this a governance Council so there is a it's not just everyone has you can always do sort of global referendums um and then these Global referendums that can be voted on by every battle data but we also wanted the ability to

have fast moving governance so the global system can elect a governance Council and this governance Council can be allocated some funds and they can spend this these funds pretty much either on a running basis or sort of on one of governance proposals where they don't have to clear every vote up to a certain threshold with the entire Community but rather can say we want to fund this specific thing because we think it's a good idea the governance the governance cancer can just do this which is I think the right governance model I think having everything go via Global governance is kind of a bad idea because it makes things very very slow and it seems very silly to involve sort of 2 000 people to

decide how to spend a thousand dollars on like some conference sponsorship yeah what yeah does this have any similarity to this sub-dial model that we see on Juno and the council model that is due to be implemented and Adam too um maybe I'm actually not too familiar with Juno I think some of the biggest similarity maybe to polka dot with the polka dot governance Council model um to be fair like I mean we can all call these different things it's effective I mean it's how German like governance tends to work as in we don't tend to make every choice via Global referenda we tend to elect

representatives or governance councils that then can make choices and you can recall these people and you can authorize them to spend a certain amount of fun so I think it's really like it's novel for blockchains but it's not really novel when you look at humans um it's like the obvious thing I think we should be doing yeah yeah I think with blockchains there is a certain reluctance I think to ins to is Institute sort of governance councils because well there there is this idea on blockchains that like every participant has an equal vote and um and they have you will vote I think every participant has an equal vote in

deciding on the government's Council um yeah and and every participant can still have like you can like this doesn't preclude the idea to have Global referenda right this um only means that sort of the happy path can be much more streamlined because I don't have an opinion on like every single choice that gets made in pretty much any governance system that I'm part of the so the paper also mentions this proactive and retroactive public good funding yeah I mean this is um I think one of the big tricks in sort of in governance is you have to figure out which people you

want to actually have part of your community so governance can decide to retroactively provide airdrops to for example the IPC users early z-cash users and then you can also have proactive public goods funding which is well you're providing a block Explorer and this is actually the big thing so most things currently in all governance systems are designed is one of things as in there is like here's a grant now do a thing whereas in Armada the governance as well as the governance Council can allocate continuous funding for proactive public that's funding so they can say well this Dev team should receive x amount every month for 12 months and so then you have this stability that you would expect from

normal human relationships where it's like oh no here it's not just here's a bunch of money now please do a thing but you get a little bit of money every month and like if you stop doing any work we can also take this back so this is sort of the proactive side of things um versus the retroactive side um because there are some things that we can't really Fund in a retroactive fashion um and this this proof of stake so this this cubic proof of stake what what is that and then also how does it relate to to Typhoon and this tenement um so Nevada V1 still uses tenement core okay for validity

tender man like Cosmo Center everyone's using vanilla tenement yes um cubic stashing or cubic proof of stake mostly refers to the fact that um the more people commit an infection the higher the slash is going to be right like instead of the current model which pretty much every Cosmos change still has which I think is horrendously insecure that like you slash people for safety faults at like a constant rate of five percent it's ridiculous um I think there are a number of chains for which it's economically the right choice to steal all funds that are bridged in because the slash is a constant five percent

um and I think yeah people should be very careful here um so in Armada you don't have this problem because you also have bridged in funds but slashes go up proportional um to the number of people committing the infractions um yeah so so so cubic is is just uh is only a way to effectively uh controls like the the slashing mechanism is different it's a different slashing mechanism yes um but Q we call this cubic-proof state because it also fundamentally comes with a different proof of stake uh fee distribution model and um reward distribution model as in it comes this there was this idea back in the day to implement this thing

called the F1 feed distribution system or the F1 reward system which enables automatic compounding of rewards um as well as allows rewards uh yeah as well as allows transaction fees to be paid in arbitrary currencies um so no matter all it's implements this I can send you the paper afterwards this sort of a 10-page academic paper written by Chris and Dave um on this okay and when is the paper actually what's up we'll put that in the show notes oh yeah yeah okay so so maybe you just to sum up here like namada is a new layer one that

does a multi-acid shielded pool and private transfers it will at some point incorporate uh bridging between other privacy chains so that we have a better a larger privacy set and then later uh private Bridges and bridges to uh to ethereum ethereum bridge is ready at launch oh ethereum Bridge okay but private bridging to others okay uh to other ABC's chainsaw whether it's uh whether there's private bridge is independent of the underlying Bridge protocol so this is IBC or some other technology it doesn't really matter okay so so I think that's quite clear now

like at least no matter is clear to me and well I think one of the things I learned today is that namata is not a an a Noma um and like intense Centric chain yes and and that makes it much easier to understand I think for for a lot of people who like you know understand like basically how blockchain works namata is a very easy onboarding step into the genoma ecosystem um because I know my yes Sonoma is it's like anoma is like the step up we did from Bitcoin to ethereum um this is sort of enormous step up from ethereum to a Noma okay so let's come back to anoma because you said something earlier that I had I

wasn't prepared for but you said that a Noma would launch its own blockchain and that this blockchain uh people can deploy apps here like uh so a Noma is a platform on which people can pull applications what do you think that's going to look like and what kind of applications look what kind of applications will people build there and uh is it also privacy preserving uh by default um and yeah what are they using to build these applications can I just write them in any language or they write them as well yeah in Russia so is it like solidity like yeah so anoma is just uh at the execution layouts wasn't so whatever you can compile to wasn't Works

um there is probably going to be some inherent advantage in using jubix which is a dependently typed language that we are developing because it allows you to build your intents um as well as your ability predicates and we're calling um soft programs for the lazy predicates um in the same stack and half the compiler enforce a bunch of guarantees across these things um I think so this is how you can build them um anoma is also whether you want to use privacy preserving features or not is totally up to you as in developer but the soft Tech is there at the base layer so Noma comes with a circuit called the tiger circuit um which is a recursive General programmability circuit um in their

knowledge as in you can have it's the unified execution environment effectively so you can have you have a transparent part there so if you don't want to use any privacy guarantees you don't need to use this circuit at all but the circuit by default gives you very nice computation compression so for example this is why I said you have on-demand Roll-Ups in onoma because if I just have some intent that goes from State a to State B and you have an attendant that goes from B to C um this doesn't both need to be executed independently we can do an on-demand Roll-Ups like any node in the intent gossip system can take these two intents generally news your knowledge proofs for that roll up and then submit the zero knowledge proof to the to anoma and it's verified by Tiger

but at the same time tiger also supports the verification of privacy preserving proofs so you could have a private transaction that then gets verified by some circuit verifier on within tiger um yeah so it's a very flexible system I think the sort of first couple of applications that we go program to see are Anonymous L1 and a half so trying to decentralize or helping to decentralize existing applications on existing systems because fundamentally a normal something that no one else does it does decent has counterparty Discovery and distributed solving um neither Juno nor ethma is no ethereum nor Solana or near do any of this like everyone just does programming

supplement um but so let's say you have an application on fmos um let's say you have an nft Marketplace on fmos actually right they're still the centralized server in the background that gets all the nft trades matches them and then settles them on fmos in the end so you can use a Noma as an L1 and a half where you just say well we want to stay on fmos and or we want to stay on ethereum for settlement but we just want to decentralize this like Central server that we the core team is currently running and we can put this on the intoma intent gossip layer and the distribute solving layer and so now we have decentralized our application but it still settled on some specific system that we care about um and I think so that

okay no so so a Noma would be like one could use a Noma to do this counterparty discovery and solving uh but still leverage blockchains like ethereum or or June or whatever to do the transacting it's just that we're going to replace this um we're gonna replace what a lot of blockchain like a lot of the the server stuff uh does which is solving like solving yeah and matchmaking and like counterpie Discovery Okay and like I know everyone keeps saying oh we have plans to decentralize these things um if you try to decentralize these things you end up building an Omar like if you actually really want to decentralize this just read your normal

specs and like build roughly the same system um because this is sort of the intent based model is the right way to generalize this um I I think so this is sort of one stream of applications that I can see early on for Noma and I think the second stream of applications is just things that you can't build on any existing system like anoma ships with Fabio so with Fairview you get programmable threshold decryption or programmable bashing uh it's a front running it's a the stupid key generation protocol um that allows you to have a single shared public key um all transactions all intents are encrypted against a single shared public key then their software or ordered and then only once they are ordered are they

submitted um and then like the solutions are encrypted as well put into blocks once the ordering has been established the valid asset can decrypt all of these transactions and you can't front front run them anymore like this fully solves front running but it's like uh yes but cow soap does this with the central server um because car swap has a central server that I sent my transactions to that solvers pull all the transactions from and the server also enforces batching and we have to trust the server to not inject their own transactions to front run other people like you can build decent first custom actually which is something that you cannot build on ethereum right now like there's no technical way to build this on ethereum um because with a number you get

programmable batching so an application can say well my batch period so the custom application on I could say my batch period is 100 blocks whatever and then intents are submitted but they encrypted against the Fairview Public key um and but the value that I said knows ah these are all intended for the specific custom application the specific cost for Ability predicate on anoma and we should keep them encrypted for 100 blocks and then after 100 blocks have passed the values have decrypt all these intents that were destined for the castle village department so now so now the app the VP can say okay let's give solvers another 50 blocks um to produce a solution

um so the solvers can grab all the now decrypted intents but they can't inject their own anymore because we have a public record of which intens are in a batch without requiring a central server so now the solvers look at this and go okay what is the optimal solution and here again the VP on and over can enforce optimality criteria whatever this may be for customers everyone gets the same clearing price and the best clearing price so if it's the most optimal solution and this is also enforced on chain like guarantine cows up this is all this is enforced by the server um like yeah so you can build these kinds of things and like with these kind of Primitives you can also build truly private second price auctions where like

all bids are encrypted until the auction page is over and then they're decrypted and then someone submits a solution to the auction um you can build on-demand Roll-Ups with this um yeah anoma is very versatile you can build many things that you can also build from ethereum but in a full decentralized manner but there are also some things that you just can't build on ethereum right now because it like generation 2 architectures just don't support this model um yeah okay let's just interesting uh it's a lot of stuff I know yeah you know Innovation is innovation is hard um but like I think this is really going to be yeah I'm very excited

um there are going to be a bunch of people I think working on a normal like architectures in the coming years because it's like it's the right model uh like the flashpoints people have realized the same thing that I how do we do this in general it's like yeah this looks very similar to a normal um so we'll see more of this uh generation three blockchains are coming cool uh well I think you know the last thing I wanted to ask about and maybe we can also talk about say the road map here one of the next steps is uh you guys are currently running a trusted setup um what's this trusted set up for and what one thing I was thinking about also is

uh you know a lot of projects have done trusted setups what what is the reason why we can't just like Leverage one big trusted setup instead of having to do one every time Are there specific things that the trusted setup does for the project that aren't replicatable um yes so we are apparently running a trust setup for tomorrow um we are reusing the powers of Tau so the phase one of the zcaf sapling trust setup yeah the problem is so like with Planck up you'd get Universal trust set up but all our circuits for performance reasons are written against uh growth 16 so they can take sort of the phase one from let's say Z cash as long as your circuit is under a certain limit but you have to run a second phase

um in order to specialize The Trusted setup for your specific circuit so we can't get around this espec because we have two new circuits effectively um a Noma does need a trusted setup by the way and Noma comes with a circuit but it's using Halo 2. um so don't uh it's another proof system that doesn't require a trusted setup anymore it's effectively a stock but it's built it was developed by people in the US so it's called a snack as a funny side note the difference between snack and a stock is whether it was developed in Berkeley or in Israel that's like the only difference like this is a pure marketing thing whether it's a snack or a stock um they are very unified nowadays

um so yeah this is coming for the matter um so the trust server is selling I think in two weeks we've started the sort of external test net on Monday no on Tuesday this week um I expect that we'll probably open this up to the general public in the next two weeks or so um and then so right now we just like narmada is mostly done it's just like thus polishing touches and we have a fairly regular release Cadence every two weeks um so from now until at some point we'll declare maina probably early so January February kind of um I know my testings are probably coming later next year sort of thank you to I I would estimate you too you're making

pretty good head right there too okay and what's your call to action like what you want people to do after having heard this join the translate uh once the test end is public try all the interfaces try the IBC connectivity try the uh privacy preserving transfers um yeah really play around with Armada um and if you are interested in blockchain design or sort of want to get Beyond these very centralized apps that we currently have on generation 2 blockchains um check out anoma join the Discord join us on elements or Riot um yeah and I think we'll probably have testings for you fairly soon for normal as well

cool yeah looking forward to it and we might we might also run try to run some values on the test net yeah uh yeah last question who should we have on next Who's one person you should do you think should be on this podcast you mentioned a bunch of interesting I mean I someone from Mina I think that'd be cool I don't know if you had someone from me not yet no no I don't know so well Mina it's interesting um I can also has your knowledge they also do a bunch of zero knowledge proofs yeah so I'd probably talk to someone from Mina um some of the validators I think sort of it's going to be quite interesting to

see how the entire space now evolves at like Solana and Terra both collapsed this year and I know a lot of Valley has made a lot of money with those yeah um yeah I'd say yeah if you like if you like uh privacy stuff or like stuff Mina um yeah I I do like I mean I I do find it fundamentally interesting and I I am extremely attached to you know the the sort of values and the applications that uh privacy preserving systems uh allow but I I just feel like a lot of this stuff is unusable by most people and you know we've seen that like you know

people don't like changing I hope so but you know like people didn't like Flock to Z cash uh when I mean like a lot of people do Z cash but like it's not at all like as used as like ethereum or Bitcoin I think the problem I mean this is sort of what I was hinting it with namata and why namada's groundbreaking here like Z cash had the problem that no one wants to use zek everyone's used die uh Tanya cash is a problem that like no one wants to pay fees and ease and pay like high fees on fees for ethereum yeah um Aztec is super slow like it's an hour or two Trend so it's like Bitcoin level speed it's like all these like privacy systems are like early on but I think with

Armada we like I think it's the next Frontier actually um in terms of privacy preserving Tech what do you think of like State actor pushback or regulatory uh challenges here and I I asked the same thing to Henry's are you afraid you're going to jail one day um I mean we're writing open source code and the Sims very very widely protected um I have to say I think blockchains aren't going to work with our privacy guarantees um because like if you're the NSA the biggest threat to your National Security is the U.S financial system being on transparent ethereum tomorrow because then China runs Financial surveillance on every one of your citizens right like we could make the assumption that

blockchains maybe it was the wrong thing but transparent blockchains will never get Traction in the mainstream for like obvious security reasons um and the other thing then like okay then you have the choice we could give a government a special key with which they can reveal all transactions but the problem is governance aren't set up for this these become Central failure points and the U.S government tried this for the Clipper chips in the 80s um it's like what we do with Armada we are viewing keys so like everyone individually can reveal one hop back one hop forward so if you need to interact with someone and need to review the transaction history you can and you should like this isn't this is to keep yourself not from hidden from your government but to keep yourself private

to the same extent that the existing Financial system is private um and sort of on the Privacy coin thing everything is a privacy coin yeah ether's a privacy coin by like any stretch of the imagination because you can put Ethan today in cash um so yeah General programmability is going to destroy this model as well the interesting thing we didn't talk about this with our normal but without Noma you can So currently with sanctions for example do you have to have one Global enforcement like one Global block list so like ethereum is now enforcing U.S sanctions for a lot of things um without no mind intense you don't have to do this you can say like I'm maybe sitting in Switzerland and I care about Swiss sanctions so when I issue my

intent I can specify which sanctions list I care about um so Americans would need to include the American sanctions list UK people will need to include the British one I would need to include the Swiss one but like this is like the current systems don't work this way because there's sort of like these Gen 2 blockchains don't I'm flexible enough to support this but like if you're on a real world traction read these gen 3 systems that give you this ability to where everyone individually says what kind of features they care about and what kind of guarantees they want for their settlement uh yeah this is the condition these are the conditions that you would put in like when you're making an intent you say like I want to have a hundred Bitcoin and zeroes uh and also uh I don't want to interact with any of these

accounts or anything exactly maybe you can like I only want to connect with this whitelist so I I don't want to interact with anyone on this Blacklist or I don't want to be settled on ethereum um you can yeah this is like the right model because the current model is never going to scale to like world blockchains because at some point Europe is going to go like why are we all enforcing U.S sanctions this is cilia yeah well um we'll have to leave there this has been really interesting you've certainly opened up my understanding of anoma and namato yeah like I've I've gained at least 50 more understanding than I had before uh so maybe if we do it again in a few months yeah things start uh going live maybe I'll reach 100 understanding

and I hope our listeners also um gained more understanding so thanks so much cool yeah thank you for having me yeah it's been a pleasure and to our listeners thanks again for tuning in uh I do live streams every Thursday so if you're interested in uh finding out more about what's going on in The Interchange system and uh staying up to date on the newest Technologies this is definitely like technical podcasts and so we do technical shows and so I want to like go deep and understand stuff technically um if you like that please make sure to hit the notification Bell hit the like button and subscribe to get notified when we go live every week thanks again we'll see you next week