Institutional Golden Bull Continues, System Update & Base App Recap, Stables in 2025 w/ Stablewatch

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[music] [music] How about the [music] [music] >> [music] >> I'm above the [music] >> [music]

[music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rock, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. It's [music] just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. [music] He said it. He finally said it. So he's bullish. I'm bullish. We're boys. [music] [music]

>> [music] >> I'm about the [music] >> [music] >> above the B. [music] [music] [music]

above the heat. [music] [music] How the [ __ ] [music] is heading to the top? If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. We're on fourth floor today. We're going to be on floor one and then we're headed straight to the moon, boys.

>> All right. All right. All right. Rob is back. If you guys remember yesterday, I was on the end of my uh 4hour stream looking I looked at the uh I looked at the time and I was like, "Oh my god, 4 hours and two minutes." I was like, "Where's Rob?" I was like, "Where did Rob go?" So many Rob's back. >> So back. He's back. >> It's like I'm trapped in a box. I I've been through the ringer and back. Have you? It's good to be back. >> Oh man, you've been um you've been taken down by the exploiters of the Twitter land.

>> Yeah, the exploiters of Twitterland. They had me in the first half, but we whacked them in the second half. We got them right back. >> Dude, I can't imagine that it felt good having your Twitter account taken away from you. So, let me tell you what happened, >> okay? >> I'm in New York City with Al. We're on the 17th floor of a five-star Williamsburg hotel. I'm I'm ordering room service and I get a call from an unknown number. >> Did you use the MX? Did you use the business MX?

>> Of course. >> So, you get free room service in select hotels. Did you get that perk? >> Of course, >> dude. The 120 a day is insane, Rob. Bro, all right. Please continue. Please, please. >> Yeah. Shout out >> Shout out to Nate. You showed me that one. I was like, "All right, bro. I'm gonna take this one now." >> Shout out AMX Platinum. >> Um, so I get a call. I'm eating my I'm eating my breakfast and I get a call. >> Yeah. >> And uh and look, it, you know, a lot of I get a lot of calls. I'm sure we all get a lot of calls that come up as spam risk. You don't answer any any calls like that.

But, you know, I've got friends in California. I I you know it doesn't come up as spammerous. It comes up as a seemingly legitimate call, right? And so for one, you shouldn't answer any unknown calls. That's just a given at this point. The other thing is like how is there not a better service for blocking these calls? It doesn't make any sense. We get so I get scam texts like 10 a day. I'm sure we all get like 10 phone calls a day. It's ridiculous that whether it's Apple or whatever phones carrier you have, Verizon, AT&T, whatever, it's ridiculous that this is not a a more, >> you know, there isn't a better solution

for this, but anyway. >> Yeah. I mean, it's sad. Well, there is we get to it. >> And and and really the way this goes is is that um there's uh a a an email that gets sent. It looks like it comes directly from Twitter. It has ax.com handle. And so I was under the impression that, you know, there was someone a suspicious login to my account and they called me in order to lock my account. Uh which was the silliest thing, right? And so, long story short, I was distracted uh and

uh I received a a text uh that was then used to compromise my account. Realized right away that it was suspicious and then and then we started to take measures to prevent that. And um you know, we ended up shortly there after getting back into the account. It's a whole rigma roll, but um the ex support once we did get in contact with them was very very helpful. So, >> shout out to AJ for that. For the >> Yeah, shout out to AJ. Super clutch. >> That was New York City. >> New York City was magical. Christmas in the city was incredible.

>> Um, just one thing after the other. It felt >> It felt like we were in a Hallmark movie. >> Backstage at the Nutcracker with an Hway. >> No way. Did uh Peter Luger, >> who did Did you get get tickets from Wait, what? Really? Did Alex hook you up? >> So, we got we got tickets. Alex's uh uh girlfriend was the one that brought us backstage and uh she was like, "Hey, like a lot of people are going to be trying to come backstage tonight. Make sure you're like here when the show ends because Anne Hathaway is here." And she's, you know, got a whole cabal.

>> Oh, whole cabal. >> So, we get up there and uh and yeah, >> nice man. you know, Devil Wears Prada. She's in all these movies. You know, she's up there on stage talking to the dancers and and getting pics. I guess she goes every year. >> It was very cool. Walking through Central Park, snow >> uh on the trees. Such a vibe. Winter Wonderland. Al found out she passed her boards as we're walking through Central Park. Remember that six-hour test that she had to take a couple weeks back? >> Nice, dude.

>> So, we passed that. It was good vibes all around. Well, you missed the Coinbase stream. >> You missed an epic stream while you were fighting your uh uh first of all, congrats on the room service, man. Huge accomplishment. >> Yeah, that was a big one. >> Congrats. No, no, congrats. >> That was huge. Huge dub there, boys. Um, no, but dude, so yesterday Coinbase had an insane announcement product lineup. I know you saw the stream. I know you saw uh the announcements. They did a whole clip. Mirage did a pretty good marketing rodeo there for them. Um, and yeah, man.

I mean, that was like the biggest that was the biggest uh news of the week really. But I think like the the vibe >> we're gonna have Brad head of the creator ecosystem at bass. He's going to come on to to tell us about it. >> We had David from their side praising Controller Stream. Had had Lemon. It was good. Uh, we had Controller Stream ripping yesterday. I'm going to pull it up again today um and try to get it firing again. But I'd like to just go over it like we should start with going over what happened on Coinbase. There's a really good article from a a guy Him who kind of put together his thoughts and I think it's worth going through. I think you've had a look at it. Um but I guess from your perspective from from the outside, what was it like watching

the uh I'm sure you watched some some of our stream, saw their clips. Um Coinbase is trying to be a bank. They're trying to literally become the everything app. Verticalization is as present as it's ever been. We've known this has been coming. there's a there's a reckoning of sorts happening in in the market. What's your take on the institutional bull run verticalization Coinbase? Let's get Hoe's article up and we can walk through some of the specifics. So there was already uh couple of bank charters that were approved not for Coinbase but I believe it was for Ripple and Fidelity and there was one other >> and so we see the direction that uh crypto companies are heading into the

direction of becoming their own banks. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Coinbase already acts as a bank. We've seen the integration with Morpho and >> some of the onchain lending products >> that they are verticalizing and they're bringing into the main Coinbase offering and the main product stack to offer this as interest on customer demand. >> Yeah. So you see Brian Armstrong's head and then you see Coinbase in the inside and as you're saying they're kind of taking these offerings and trying to really expand them. >> So go ahead and scroll down here guys. We'll kind of see some of the uh I I like first of all I I gotta give Hoim a shout out for his copyrightiting skills.

Coinbase is lying to you. They said it's just a brand refresh quote unquote big glaze coming here. In reality, they're smuggling crypto rails into every sector of the economy. It's genius and terrifying. I have dissected every second of their hourlong stream update. And so Him also watched a ton of our uh content yesterday. He put a shout out under. But first of all, this is a great great headline and a great way to start a technical article and so props to you man. My copyrightiting chops are are are firing. So they started with this agentic economy and he kind of labeled as as seven core pillars. So we can get into bit basically what they said but they they got into like this idea of an AI robo advisor on the Coinbase app. So

we can keep if you keep going down we'll get more details as we see. And basically there's like this like um revival of X42 uh and Coinbase has been pushing it hard and basically they've they're really doubling down on this as as a way for like the integration of the crypto economy with AI. Um and so they're projecting billions of AI agents within three to five years. You can't use a credit card. We've heard this a lot. So Coinbase is leading into this. Um to me it's a no-brainer. I deposited on Mammo on um freaking uh like Moonwell's AI agent on the base app yesterday. It was pretty sick. So this is just to me is an obvious next step for crypto. We talked about it like

you're going to interact with an LLM prompting interface to operate onchain in the future. It's pretty sick. So that this is like the first >> remember Coinbase invented X42. >> Okay. um >> really >> it was incubated internally >> and so yeah so they brought X42 to market it's been around a long time and it's you know starting to gain a lot more in popularity >> and this is the standard by which a lot of these LLMs are going to interact with one another also had Siri Rom and Andrea come on the show and talk to us about what the next era of AI agents how that's going to be differentiated we know now that agents are able to own property That may or may not make them

sovereign and sentient. >> Yes. >> But they are property owners. >> Trippy one right there. >> They will become functioning members of the economy. >> Yeah. >> And X42 is going to play a major role in that. And I think uh this is part of Coinbase's plan at uh they're a really forwardthinking fintech company. Yeah. And we see a lot of the infrastructure being built. We see the groundwork being laid. So, it's no surprise that they're in entrenching themselves in the traditional banking sector, but also making strides on the technology.

>> Yeah, man. I like this one. This wasn't even in my top three, though, which is crazy. Let's keep going. Um, I think that the there are some better ones. So, yeah, there's these kind of black boxes for ST for a AI. We don't really know how good they're going to be, hallucinations, etc. But if we scroll down, this is like the biggest, this was my number one, the everything exchange, stocks, per prediction markets. I I kind of chose like stocks as the biggest thing, but it's really all of it. So basically, as as you can see, Coinbase is now going into allowing tokenized equities 247 globally. Uh I think it's huge for democratization of access. And then I think also um you know, like going through the actual perk markets, integrations, really really cool stuff.

So, um, yeah, I mean, this is like a big verticalization step. They're basically looking at all the competitors in the market and saying we're we're going to headtohead with all the centralized exchanges. We're going to go head-to-head with all the purpose platforms and we're going to integrate the best uh prediction markets, which they chose Koshi in this regard to try to basically rival the Robin Hoods of the world and the other platforms of the world. So, cheers to get some of your thoughts on this everything exchange stuff, bro. Uh, and then we we're going to move off of Coinbase. But yeah, I think uh we just have a bunch of stuff to cover before Brad comes on. But this is my number one by far.

>> We're we're going to see a lot more of this. >> Yeah, we're going to see a lot more everything exchanges. I think the new infrastructure is liquidity. And so we have enough chains, we have enough roll-ups. Uh what it this is going to look like in the back end is Coinbase tapping into liquidity, Robin Hood tapping into liquidity. They're going to tap into call sheet prediction markets. Yeah, they can tap into hyperls for example. We've seen a bunch of distribution channels do this. Uh tapping into more fo lending markets. Um the new DeFi mullet is centralized front end liquidity back end. Yeah, I mean that has been the D5 mode, but I do know like it's like this new form of like

everything in one place um where you can see it and basically like I like how Homing lays out like the bear and bull cases ICOs another one of my favorite ones uh top three uh as well they're bringing on this new ICO machine really really cool um I thought this was really solid from a uh kind of first principles perspective u I don't really know I mean it's kind of weird that use the Monad sale on like their platform. Like they acquired Echo and then they didn't use it for Monad. I was a little bit confused. I I assume they figured something out there with Kobe. I'm still waiting for the up only episodes. I thought this ICO stuff was um pretty solid though. So yeah, guys, I mean you can read the whole article on Hoe's

account, cryptoeim I I believe or let me just double check that. If we scroll to the top here, you you guys can see where to find it. Um h o em. So, I thought that was pretty I thought this is like probably like the best article that I saw recapping the Coinbase stuff yesterday. >> Yeah. And I'll just I'll just comment on this as a whole, which is that crypto's always been a Trojan horse. Like it it was always the case that we were going to embed the blockchain uh culture, ethos, and technology inside of the existing financial system.

>> Um people thought it was going to be this wild revolution with the US dollar uh capitulating into hyperinflation. It's not the case. The dollar is going to continue to be around, but we can start to entrench our technology and therefore the ethos of our technology inside of these systems. And I think that's stable coins are doing. That's what these neo banks are doing. And uh and that's how we ultimately arrive at a per permissionless system. >> I mean, it's just that it's not like this revolutionary force. I mean, it is in its own regard, but the OG Bitcoiner mindset is important. like the whole like libertarian values and that such and that kind of thing. But yeah, the the the path to adoption is seemingly

showing to be more institutional mutual, etc. and kind of like this more slow integration path. So, all right guys, we're going to move uh into the next thing off of Coinbase here. It was a great stream yesterday. Um I think we actually just have one more thing on Coinbase. It's kind of like this new era. Let's go ahead and and flip off of Hoe. Shout out to him for checking out our stream yesterday and writing this up. Uh much love, dude. Uh so we'll go ahead and just move to to to the next one here, Rob. And we got a fun stream. Yeah Brad.

>> Um other where do you think these these financial super apps end up? It it feels like you can't have too many super apps, can you? >> I mean, that's what I'm saying. Like this maturation of the space, there's really the verticalization is by design. like uh it's like um it's [snorts] like effectively going out and saying you're competing against anyone who has any of these offerings. I mean look at all these products that they launched yesterday. Prediction market structur equity person features full decks integration including million masses on Salana borrowing against Bitcoin ETH new payment and money transfers AI power advisor business token sales. I mean come on >> but like this is everything I would want from a bank in 2030.

Yeah. I mean then then you just have coin as your main bank. Like that's like that's what they're going for. They're going to be the zoomer's bank >> and there is this transfer of wealth that's happening. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. There is Yes. Yes. The amount of six five figure net worth, six figure net worth, seven and eight figure net worth people over the next 10 years are going to be dominated by those who invested in crypto. Those right the proportion of crypto holders they're going to be stuck in six seven figures >> hell >> those are those are majority crypto owners [snorts]

>> five six seven eight figure hell I mean come on like >> and so if you're not off if you're a bank and you're not offering crypto products and services to this new rising uh sector >> you're missing a massive shift in the way money is going to where the money is going to uh kind of concentrate >> right there's a there's a capital light out of those depository >> and the the boomers are still going to be loaded up on their Schwab accounts and on their Wells Fargos and on their TDs and on their uh you know uh all their tradings and Robin Hoods and stuff. So there's there's going to be this shift but but yeah like there's a that this is where the new capital formations come. It's bullish. It's new money vibes. It's like >> uh Coinbase is the new money app. Uh if

you're part of this new money bank >> and that's what Jeff is talking about. He's like yo we're trying to make a bunch of money for our base app creators. like it's all about in making it's all about earning and man I mean it's just like it's very clear to me that earning is what is the like the angle for Coinbase and for base whereas other banks and other institutions they're not like you can make money by using my app it's like you get your little savings rate etc. these new neo bank kind of uh concepts are like more like yo use our app and you're going to you're gonna get wealthier over time by using our app just because we're gonna take you on this journey and like with the AI advisor think about it you build a a relationship with this LLM over five

years who guides you on your financial decisions is it a good time to buy Bitcoin now is it a bad time to sell this here's what I have in my portfolio I want to go more risky more conservative help me out like you start to build this thing where you you you you're gonna rely on Coinbase and these NEOBank apps not just as a place to hold your money, but as your way to generate more value and multiply your capital in investing over time. So, it's like I would argue I would firmly argue that the users of Coinbase's everything app, the users of the Kraken Neoank app, the users of um these types of like new applications, they're going to out compete and outperform those who don't use these apps. So, there's honestly a call to

action like use the base app, use Coinbase app, and obviously use DeFi, too. But like, um, I think that there's going to be I think if you use these apps and get set up and don't go crazy on leverage or anything, you will be richer in five years based on the market and just based on the financial health and habits that you develop because like they're basically trying to train young people to have a personal financial structure that's long-term bullish. And I get prediction markets, per futures are all like very very um you know risky and very very hard. But I at the end of the day I think this is going to be the new money, right? This is like the new money app.

>> Okay. So Andy, you and I were around in 2021 2022. >> Yeah. >> Celsius, BlockFi, we're all similar interest rates and the ability to earn on capital in centralized exchanges. Yes. >> How is how is Coinbase offering this uh these opportunities, these financial instruments? How is that different? >> I mean, they're just publicly regulated, I guess, >> the CDFI wave. >> Yeah, it's not necessarily different. It's just more legit now and it's more more there's non-custodial aspects of it, too. ASAP's fully non-custodial, you know what I mean? And so yes, Coinbase app is a custodial exchange, but and they do charge fees and they have all

these programs, but Coinbase is publicly regulated on a quarterly basis. So >> just like we've grown up a bit, you know like >> you know, Trust Me is like I don't see Coinbase blowing up. >> So >> neither do I. But I don't think if you would have asked anyone back then uh whether those companies were going to blow up. I they may have suspected a little bit more. But it does feel like now this time is a little bit different. >> I I mean I think >> I think it's a couple for a couple reasons. The regulatory certainly has an aspect to it.

>> Yeah. I think um the really important part of how uh Coinbase users are earning six, seven, eight% on stables um which is different from the way that it was done in the CDFI wave. They are passing onchain yield to the centralized exchange >> directly from Morpho or Moonwell or whatever >> directly from Moro. They make it super easy. You just click start lending and you choose the amount that you want. >> And I think that Okay, now Ne is going to go live on Salana, but just to close that loop on that point.

>> Yeah, just close that loop. The team's ready to keep you rolling here. Me, too. They're they're trying to keep us in line over here. >> Well, I appreciate that guys behind the scenes. Like, there's really two reasons. I think one is that they're tapping into onchain liquidity which actually is stickier and more sustainable than the way that uh yield was being generated in the previous era. >> Um >> two is the earnings from uh bringing social closer to uh financial. >> Yeah, exactly. That was the big thing that we talked about with the base team yesterday. It's like this convergence like what issue are you solving? They're solving like the creator flywheel.

they're solving other kind of like issues in terms of like the way that new people are interacting with finance. Um yeah, I mean I I think there's quite a few reasons kind of closing out that Coinbase loop. Rob, I think it's bullish, man. This NEO bank concept is what we've been talking about as far as institutional golden bull. Um and I'm pretty stoked on it to to just look at near real quick. I mean these guys are just everywhere. I mean just Okay, we're on Salana. Uh we're going to use uh or markets which is uh Helas's product uh from like like Merch company and yeah they're just they're going to be everywhere. Uh they just did crushing intense. They announced it out there.

Near's obviously our AI super cycle uh sponsorcohost. They're awesome. So yeah, I just I just wanted to bring this up. Near is live on Salana. Um Near is firmly one of the projects that has excelled this cycle of all the L1s. uh and I don't I do not say that just because uh we have a a collaboration with them. They're actually uh facilitating tons of intense volume. They've actually now created real chain abstraction with their intense product. Their intense bridge is dominating a lot of other bridges terms of fees generated as well as activity. Uh their AI products are killer. They just launched a private AI product. Near is everywhere right now. I'm bullish on Near. Um and it's tough to say like price because it's just a bare market across the board

right now effectively. I mean that's just the reality. So price aside, the fundamentals here, Near is returning to fundamentals in that way. Um hope that they can turn their products into viable revenue consistently over time, whether it be their chat product, monetizing it, uh whether it be their uh bridge. So that's what I got on Near. I'm pretty stoked that they're live on Salana and just wanted to cover that. So that's the vibes, bro. I don't know. Just near on Salana, man. That's it. What do you think about nearest?

>> I [clears throat] think this is uh this is multi-chain. Um >> it's chain abraction. Yeah, >> it is chain abstraction. >> Solana wants to be everything chain. Trade everything on Solana. Trade any asset just like Bass wants to. >> I do think you know there is there is a slippery slope here where if you try to do everything then you sort of do nothing. >> But if you are the the execution engine for all trading that's bullish. That's been like this this that's been the Salana thesis forever. It's like Bass wants to have all assets tradable on base. You can trade Salana on base. You can trade near on base. You can trade stocks on base. Hyperlid the same thing.

Hyperlquid is the chain to house all of finance. Everybody wants to be the place where they where everything is traded. Hyperlquid. >> You sound like you sound like the bullish one here. The vibes seem to have switched. The tables have turned. >> Oh, no. I mean, I'm just pragmat. I'm just trying to understand what's happening. I am bullish but it's just like I'm in the institutional bull camp. I've I've removed myself from the camp of CT. >> How do you think I think that's probably healthy for the for the mental how do you think near intense near uh on Salana? How does this play into the institutional uh developments?

>> Yeah, I say let's flip to the next one and I think this will further answer your question. Um so basically I think that this intense product is going to create this like uh private uh privacy um chain abstracted world where you can go from near to starknet to salana to zcash and you create these little pocket of silos that is like this bullish private interaction across chains like private cross-chain transactions leads to much more desire I think from the institutional side to partic participate. Um, and so this is like uh they're calling it darker zarkaneer. Um, dark goes full intent

mode. Some things are best kept private. And Rob, I think that the answer is the institutional side is best kept private. In fact, the institutional side is demanding privacy. The institutional golden bull will not happen without privacy. >> Okay. I think a lot of the tokenized stock offerings and uh the ability to turn these physical stock certificates into not only digital representations of equities but tokenized representations of equities is going to blur the lines between Wall Street and DeFi.

>> And I think as that happens, compliance is going to be extremely important. And so to see the multi-chain evolve in such a way that every chain is available on or excuse me every asset is available on every chain. Yeah. >> I think there's going to be institutions are going to be extremely selective about what assets and what chains they go onto. I think uh like DTCC their tokenized stock offering is is only going to allow uh the major assets like Bitcoin and ETH and the very beginning >> I think there will be tokenized stock and equity op offerings that will allow this two-way street and allow you to

withdraw your equity convert it into a tokenized equity and deposit into one of these uh one of these like X stocks organiz what's your take on the privacy element of this institutional side let's uh close this loop on Stark Zcash near you see what they're doing here this little trifecta do you see this privacy like don't like do you see how it's coming together for like this privacy narrative >> I do but I think it's outside the purview of the institutional scope I hear the like I hear I don't think they want to be public demanding privacy >> but I think once >> a stockholder converts their equity into a tokenized form, they're going to

absolve DTCC or other institutions of any regulatory uh liability for protecting that asset. >> I think once you withdraw it out of the existing system and into and you deposit it into a tokenized system, >> the regulatory landscape is going to be much more handsoff and much less protective >> of the consumer. And that's what the Democrats are arguing for. They're saying, "Oh, well, we still want consumer protections even when equities and assets are brought on chain." >> Yeah. I'm just saying the institutions want the private uh block space, I think, and I think this is a a step in the right direction and like just like the the general crosschain flow is pretty is is pretty bullish. But I hear what you're saying. It's like they want

to have the best possible chain partners, the best possible infrastructure token launches that are brand new. they don't have much lindia and and they also are going to want like a very select um you know like let's just say feature set and it might not just be privacy might not just be one thing. So um Rob I I think we close out Starknet here um we go right back any just kind of closing thoughts Rob on the Coinbase base uh announcements yesterday or just anything else that we talked about and let's close this thing out and we'll get Brad up here.

>> Absolutely. Uh, I I think um Coinbase is doing what Facebook tried to do and failed with the Libra project. I think um for a long time this convergence between social and financial uh people saw it coming and I think Facebook saw it coming back then. Uh I think we're seeing it with a lot of the onchain native social. And Coinbase sees it too and they see the creator economy as this blossoming industry. >> The hyperincialization of everything and >> hyper financialization, >> the creator economy. Those are two trends that are just going to boom. Um and and yeah, >> more and more.

>> There's also this concept of neo media, like YouTube, uh people are buying things on Tik Tok and Instagram. I would love to see like Christmas shopping in 2025 versus like 2020 and 2015. We know that there was this massive migration online. People started shopping online rather than go to stores. That happened in the early 2010s. Now we're seeing it. It's not quite online. People are going to like, you know, a website. They're doing their shopping directly from Instagram, Tik Tok, and these things. And I think Coinbase sees this. A lot of the social media companies see this and they're trying to close the distance between the creator and the consumer.

>> And and Rob, I mean, I think it's this creator flywheel. Let's get let's get Brad up to talk creator flywheel base. Coinbase app. Rob, you gonna stick around or are you gonna run? >> Yeah. Yeah. No, Brad's the homie. I wanna I want to chat to Brad and then and then after uh I'll I'll dip Brad leaves. But >> thanks for joining us today, sir. >> I think it's also important journey for you. >> Brad uh Brad has been a massive help. We obviously launched one of the most popular mini apps on bass. Dude, we we got a shout out from uh David yesterday, by the way, the product guy.

>> Yeah, David's a legend. I've been following him for a long long time. I went to Vermont to Base Camp. I met up with Brad uh on his uh at his invite and um we had a tremendous presentation where we basically unveiled Control the Stream to a group of content creators that were there at Base Camp. And lo and behold, we've had thousands of people not just use the app. Yeah. But thousands of people have started to earn from the app. >> Dude, that is what the the whole pitch was yesterday. Let's get Brad up. Jesse was yelling about earning yesterday.

He's he will just keep yelling about earning. We will yell about earning. It is all about earning for the creators in the creator economy. Bradley Freeman, welcome to the show, man. I know it's been a busy day for you last 24 hours. Yeah, good to see you guys. Wow, you're taking all my material talking about all the great stuff we're doing. >> Yeah, man. >> How was the Genius Bar? How was the event yesterday? I mean, I felt like I was I was like in the mix. I was talking to Alex. He called in right before it started. How was it, man? >> Oh, it was it was so much fun. Um, you know, it was in Fort Mason in San Francisco and it was such a cool group of people to be at this event. I'm sitting next to me. There's folks from various financial institutions from

across the organization at Coinbase. And I just think it's crazy that you have in the same room, we're talking about prediction markets, uh, Coinbase for business and tokenized creator capital markets all in the same place. So, it was really a like a really like physical representation of all the exciting stuff that's happening on on Coinbase and on base. >> Yeah, man. I mean, the the stream was just electric yesterday, guys. Like it was just Alex called and then Luke calls in from his car in the parking lot right before he starts and he's firing and I download uh the Mammo was like a AI powered yield app. I put like $5 in it.

He's fired up. Betty goes out there and there was just clapping every five minutes, Brad. It was just a like the energy seemed palpable. Um yeah, man. I mean, how does it feel after now? How does it how does the team morale feel? What's just kind of generally uh any any reflections? >> Yeah, I think everyone's really excited. Uh it's been a long and intense year. You know, we're right around the corner from the holidays. So, this is a great way to go out. Um I think a lot of folks, myself included, like crawling to the finish line, but when you have the big payoff moment like yesterday, uh you know, energy surges back, adrenaline gets you going, and it's just a reminder of how much more exciting stuff there is to do. I was just thinking yesterday like um you know we're recording content

in the venue with the European kid who recently launched his creator coin on the base app, you know, and I'm just like thinking how wild it is that we have folks like him and you guys like streamers, Tik Tockers, YouTubers, like you name it. Um discovering and using the base app uh to create and earn. What's really surprised me is how how quickly creators really get it, right? like people intuitively understand that what they create is valuable and that their contributions to so many social media platforms actually like drive real real revenue and so many creators are also like more than just creators. You guys are a good example of this, right?

You have the show, but you're also literally like innovating at the bleeding edge of crypto and live streaming. You know, the the European is another example. He was showing folks on our team yesterday this app he's built called Storytime that allows influencers to use their social capital to basically get free items from restaurants all over New York. So you go into like a coffee shop, they're signed up there, you're like, "Hey, I have certain amount of local reach. I'll make a story about your stuff right now." In exchange for like a sandwich. So it's just really exciting to see like social capital breaching into reality. >> Idea.

>> Yeah. And it's just really exciting time. So uh yeah, again, just super excited. Brad, you've had a hell of a career in social, Tik Tok, other platforms, base now, working with creators for such a long time. I I think that's kind of like the like the purpose of this of of this call is just basically just I want to talk to you about what your experience is working with creators. And if there's creators out there who are listening, if there's builders listening, founders, just, you know, traders, speculators, what what from your experience h have you seen that makes a really uh successful uh creator through base through through other social platforms? I know it's a very high level question. We'll get more into kind of like base and exactly what's going on, but give us like the

30,000 foot view. It's December 18, 2025. The creator economy has changed so much. Uh obviously, there's problems with monetization. there's problems with AI now, but there's a lot of opportunity as well. Talk to us about like the current creator economy and just kind of like what makes uh a creator, I guess, last in this market. >> Yeah, it's a it's a great question. The creator economy has evolved a lot from Yeah. >> brands just, you know, not so long ago asking why do I even need an Instagram account for my business to creators launching their own businesses or commanding equity in those same brands.

So, I think where we are in the long arc of the creator economy is more creators now than ever and more people see that being a creator, creating content and publishing it on the internet is going to be part of how more and more people earn and make a living, whether that's supplemental income or increasingly like full-time. Um, and I think this creator prneur archetype is really the one that excites me and excites us the most because these are folks who are not just creating for the sort of creative uh fulfillment that that doing so provides and expressing yourself but also for the opportunities that come with publishing content online. um t you know I worked at Tik Tok during Tik Tok's rise to a billion users and that was crazy that you know democ like uh verality could now be democratized right so five years

ago you know pre pre as Tik Tok rose now anyone no matter if you have a million followers or or one follower uh could make a banger video and go viral and build an audience so it really does feel like uh you know distribution and discovery has been democratized but the final frontier is actually value capture and monetization and that's where the base app comes in, right? Like we know that I I have a video myself that has 6 million views on Tik Tok and in my private analytics, I can see that it's generated 36,000 hours of watch time, which is four four [laughter] years of watch time. So I'm like, okay, this clearly drove some my one video drove at least 10 grand in ad revenue for bite

dance. So clearly these my content, my profile is valuable, but how do I capture that value? And that's where blockchain and the base app come in. Uh, right. We are downstream of figuring out sort of what's what's hot and we help capture that value and we're seeing creators do that now every single day. I think Gary Tam has been now posting on the base app trading. So, I think we're see a lot more lot more folks trying this out. Um, and people re waking up and realizing that followers are a vanity metric and real belief and uh markets for creators are the next frontier in the creator economy.

>> I love it. I I absolutely love it. I mean, creator coins are getting real traction now on base. Rob, how many conversations have we had about whether we should launch a coin or not? I mean, it's just it's it's I could go to a therapy session with Brad talking about launching a coin because there's this stigma. Brad, why are creator coins the right time? Why is it the right time for creator coins, creator monetization now? Um, what signals tell you that there's a creator market that's going to work versus just kind of launching it and fading? Um, I know this is like a not not a great vibe question, but like these are the things that creators think about who actually care about their image.

>> It's a great question. Um, and and brand like trust and and the brands that creators have built is extremely sacred and we have a lot of respect for that for that brand value that creators have have built. So asking creators or inviting them to use our product and to launch their own creative coin. It is a big deal, but I think we also do things differently than others who have tried this in the past have done. For example, for us, it's really not so much about the the launch or the day one of your coin. Um, but it's really about the day two and beyond. It's funny because we say on base it's always day one, but like for creator c for creator coins, it's really actually about like days two and beyond. How are you going to grow distribution? How are you going to

distribute value to your real fans and to traders? Um, and how are you going to really like think long term about about uh having your own coin. So, that's where we spend a lot of our time. I think another thing that we do differently or think that we think about differently than others have tried in the past is we really try and differentiate between uh the creator fan relationship and the creator trader relationship. So, where a lot of folks go wrong is they say, "Oh, I'm going to sell this to my fans, right? We're going to tell you, hey, you launch this coin. Tell your fans to buy it." And no creator wants their fans to lose money, right? But just like sports betting, there are people who love the game and there are people who love betting on the game. Um, and there's, you know, a mix

of the two. And so, we really do differentiate, right? There's a creator trader relationship that has not really existed before, uh, that, you know, creating on the base app and distributing your coins across the base ecosystem uh, introduces creators to. And then separately there's the creator fan relationship. And so I'm really excited for next year especially to find more ways for creators to uh understand who their fans are, recognize, and reward them and give away their coins. We I think that's actually going to be a potentially really effective way to onboard new people, right? A creator that you love, trust, and respect says, "Hey, you've been a fan of mine. I want to I want to give you some of my creator coin if you can prove that you've taken the actions I care about, like following me on various socials or buying my

products." Um, and then if someone onboards and gets, you know, playing with their, you know, funds that were given to them that they earned, it's very different than spending your own money. Um, you might, maybe you'll sell and do your first transaction, maybe you'll hold, maybe you'll start doing both. Um, but I'm really excited for that. The, uh, loyalty program of the creator economy, the loyalty of creators, uh, to unfold on the base app as well. >> Yeah, this is something that I'm particularly excited about. Uh, I think for a long time really up until now we haven't had a very strong value proposition of building the creator fan relationship with a token. It almost

seemed like the to the the creator token was a speculation vehicle and that's exactly what traders want. Creators were able to monetize when they had motion. They were able to get trading fees from these traders, but there wasn't a lot of value that they could then bring the fans as a as a means through this token. What I'm what I'm hearing you get at is that it's almost like we're using the traders to speculate. They want something to speculate on. We're giving them that access, but then we're turning around and we're sharing that value with the fans. And we're getting really creative about how we can bring value to the fans. This look like loyalty programs. It look like it looks like airdrops. It looks like all these

things. Have you guys thought internally about what you can do with the fans? And generally like what what are some of the things that really resonate with creators when you're talking to them about creator coins? Is it more as a financial fundraising vehicle or is it more like you can like you can share wealth and share value with your fans or what can you do for your fans? What are some of the light bulb moments that that you've seen with >> creators? So there's really like three I think three big challenges that creators face that we think blockchain can solve and that the base app and creator coins contribute to. Those three things are like the big challenges creators face.

Number one is they don't capture the value of their core product which is the content they create and the accounts they create them on every day. The second is creators don't know who their fans are or the nature of their relationship with those fans because that data is a not shared with them uh or and b it's fragmented across multiple platforms right like you guys don't know right now who follows you on YouTube and x and has you know followed you on the base app right so helping creators understand who their fans are and the nature of that their relationship is a huge challenge that we can solve um and then the third one is access to capital right and funding um creators, you know, you cannot walk into a bank and get a loan against your future YouTube ad revenue. Um even if you're more

consistent than a lot of traditional businesses um but there are companies that that are built on base that do this now. You can actually get a loan. So access to capital like these are the the challenges we can face and I think especially on the loyalty one that one is the one that's most exciting. Like to me the the way we actually win creators is we'll get your attention by making you money in a new way but we'll get your interest when we show you something you've never seen before and that is who are all your fans who follows you on these platforms and now you have a direct relationship with them that cannot be taken away. Um, we think that'll be really powerful and that that will those two things will actually help bring more credibility to creators such that they can get more access to capital

and they have more ways to prove their value than just how many followers they have, which most folks recognize at this point is more of a vanity metric than a real measure of, you know, the passion and quality of your community. I love it. So, so it's it's the it's the organization of people to to like this thousand true fans is this common marketing term of like creating your thousand true fans and doing it with this doing it with financialization or like creating that relationship is very very very beneficial. And Brad, I think that there's something interesting here where content used to be kind of um let's say it wasn't as abundant as it is now. And so you could actually do a lot of private, you know, pay walls for content. You could do a lot of these

types of things and that business model still exists but very much so more now than ever. Content is meant to be free. Like content is free. There's so much of it people expect to be free. Consumers expect it to be free. And so that is the problem that I talked to David about yesterday where it's like creators have this creator flywheel problem where it's like they can't really get that monetization going without ad revenue, sponsorships, and it's still kind of like this consistent flywheel problem. Talk to us about the Bass app now that it's live in the public. We are ripping this holiday campaign, guys. By the way, there's a link in the YouTube description, guys. Please download the base app. I am running this base app holiday campaign. I don't know what place I'm going to get. I don't know how much this $2 million cut I'm going to

get, but I'm going for it. So, guys, sign up below real quick. It's on the base app. It's in the YouTube description. Um, anyway, Brad, talk to us about how the Bass app is going to help that creator monetization flywheel really kick off. We talked about creator coins. I I know that that's a big part of it. What is your creator economy vision on base as the lead of the creator economy? Um, here the app's open, millions of users weight listed are now on. This thing is about to get bigger and bigger. What is your creator economy flywheel vision for 2026? Would love to hear about some of your goals, targets, that that type of stuff.

>> Yeah. No, great question. And uh yeah, you touched on something very important which is like how content is now created and how much more content is created than there used to be um especially with the advent of AI. So, in terms of how I organize like where where do we fit in here? Like what is base app's right to be here in the creator economy? It's, you know, we are not a better app today at least to create original content, right? You're better off using Sora or Grock or the native creation tools in Instagram and Tik Tok. Um, and we're also not yet at least the best place to build your audience from scratch, right? If if you are a new creator, like you should post on Tik Tok, you should post on Instagram and YouTube and and X. Um, but where we have a real right to win is

on the monetization. The same way that Tik Tok and these other platforms have democratized verality, we have dem we are democratizing how creators earn because you don't need a certain follower count or achievement level to start earning. You can start earning potentially from your very first post. And so I see our place in the creator economy as this new layer, right? We have content creation tools and AI. We have distribution and discovery tools with like traditional social. And we have new like value capture and monetization tools that can live and and onchain has an unfair advantage in. Um, and so what that means to make that a reality is we have to make it easier for creators to bring their best content over and to meet creators where they are. I think one example of this that we haven't talked a ton about yet, but

you'll hear about more um is the ability to actually crossost your Tik Toks and Instagram reels into the base app via an integration uh we'll be sharing more about soon. I think you guys may be early users of this, right? But the whole idea is creators don't want yet another app like the 10th or nth app to post videos to um but they do want the benefits of the base app. So we've met them where they are and now you can automatically sync and crossost your videos. Um and so I think that's a good example of us understanding our right to be here and meeting creators where they are where it leads us for 2026 and and sort of the vision is you know people ask us like what what types of creators are we focused on and the answer is we're focused on those who make high

quality content. And the best part about that is that's not limited to large creators. There are tons of small accounts, medium accounts, large accounts, and mega accounts that make great content. And the base app really can serve all of them. One of my favorite things is that there are really two types of creators that are totally slept on that we think we have a real shot at um at winning and and really helping advance and accelerate their careers as creators. The first is what we call aspiring earners. These are smaller creators who are not yet monetizing. I'm actually a good example of this myself where I have like 5,000 followers on TikTok, you know, 10,000.

>> Yeah. You know, I've made I've made some bangers. I've proven I'm capable, but uh but I'm not earn I'm not earning a dime on traditional social, but I am earning on the base app. Um and so there's a lot of folks like me who who fall in that in that boat. The other one though is we call them undervalued overseas creators. Creators who uh the traditional ads model does not serve well. So if you are a creator in subsaharan Africa or Nigeria, your CPMs on your YouTube videos for the same same content, same niche, same follower size, everything, it's like 10 to one, meaning you have to do 10 times the viewership of like an American counterpart creator because advertising doesn't serve you that well or you're just excluded entire entirely from monetization, right? If you're the

biggest creator in Mexico and Canada does not earn a dime from the Tik Tok creator fund and revshare. So there's just this huge group of people who are completely excluded from monetization who are like completely undervalued. So we're gonna like completely moneyball the situation and scoop up all this talent, get them on the base app and get them posting um and earning in totally new ways. >> And Brad and Jesse shouted out um do you remember the creator's name yesterday that he shouted out on the presentation? It was um >> Oh Naomi.

>> Yep. Naomi. Yeah. I think she is from um where is she from? I just saw her Twitter today, but she was a perfect example of this undervalued uh overseas creator. >> Totally. Yeah. And she's an Olympian, huge athlete and like really wellversed in all of the different tools. So um she she's a great example. Another one um is Nikki from Miami. These are both creators who are like early to the base app. I think we showed some of them on the stream as well. Yeah. But the roster of talent of people who have launched their creator coins and who have >> uh but and there's like and people who have created started posting but have not yet launched is actually insane. So I would encourage people to go check out the feed. You'll see more and more of

your favorite creators in there. People you might not expect. Um and I think that's maybe the the thing I want to stick to like mention the most is that so many creators see what happens in crypto. they have this terrible, you know, feeling. They hear the the horror stories of things going wrong. So, really, it's a real uphill battle. But what we're finding is that trust and and that really is what Coinbase offers is really high quality trust, not just trust with our products, but with the people like who are on our creator team who who work with these creators. Like, we have that confidence from them.

People who would never touch crypto or never try anything are willing to try things with us. Um, and I think a big part of it's not just because of the Coinbase brand, but it's also because of how thoughtful and seriously we take who we work with. I mean, how we collaborate. We know that there's a very high burden and that people are looking for us to slip up. So, the bar and the scrutiny very high. Um, and I'm happy to say that, you know, we've I think we've launched at least, you know, over a dozen creator coins and they've all been pretty pretty healthy um and pretty exciting. The creators have been pretty happy. So, we're going to try and keep that momentum going into 2026 and and really scale it up.

>> Brad Freeman, the creator ecosystem lead at base. Thanks for joining us. Congrats on the launch yesterday. I I know it's been an absolute journey internally for the last six months, really like the last year plus to get this thing out. Um, shout out to you for the controller stream idea and thought process and getting this thing started. Um, it's new day one. It's the first day of public. >> Thank you guys. Thanks for having me. I'll see you uh see you on the base app. I'll go send you some tips. >> All right, Brad. All right, guys. Quick standby. We'll be right back.

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Go to habachi.xyz to [music] start trading today. [music] Looking for yield that stands out? Infin. [music] Welcome back to another episode of Stabled Up, our premier weekly show covering the ins and outs of digital dollars, stable coins, and the future of decentralized finance. The show is made Hey, all righty guys, we got stable coin year in review with Stable Watch founders ready to go. Welcome back to Stabled Up, our premier weekly stable coin show powered by Frack Finance, our lovely partners. We've known Sam for

four years, been working with them, big FRA fans. They're doing great work with their genius compliance stable coins and more. Let's get our our guys Halco and Pour up, the founders of Stable Watch, and we're going to go over the year in review. Stable coins year in review 2025. Stoked on this one. Fun holiday episode here. So, we'll bring them up now and let's get this party started, guys. >> Hey, great to be here. Thank you for having us. >> Yeah, man. It's a it's a it's a pleasure. Let's uh let's go ahead and get get them up and um we will get the party started. Leo.

Am I right? All right, boys. You're live. Welcome. Welcome to this to to the Ro TV stable coins year in review 2025. Um Halco Portor of Stable Watch. Guys, you built an amazing platform. Your data is amazing. Your work's great. You do great, great, great work. Stoked to have you guys on. Um boys, your brothers, h how did this start? How did this happen? How did you guys build stable watch? What's your backgrounds? Talk to us about kind of what happened here and how you got to stable watch and a bit about the origin story. Guys, welcome on. >> Sure. Yeah, very happy to be here. Thank you for having us and a big fan of the show. So, uh yeah, really glad to be here. Um yeah, TLDDR like last year uh I've been uh managing some small fund

with the friends. I've been more on the venture side of it and Phyavore uh Allan big yeah big thanks to you. The guys did amazing work on the liquid side. uh we closed off the position last December and we started looking to way is how to utilize uh the profits with stable coins and just get uh less risk exposure with our portfolio and this is the time I find out that the space is not saturated yet. So early this year um there was not that big of a market cap for the whole category. Uh however people really wanted to get exposure of into stable coin somehow because we uh

had this acquisition of uh bridge by stripe and this also those yield bearing stable coin category was somehow a proxy to get exposure into all of that. This is how I perceive it. Uh however what's been lacking is or was until we launched stable watch uh was the data around all this kind of a products that's one thing and the other is risk profile of those and while we're not telling directly if we think that this or other coin is AA or triple B we still try to help people understand what are the risk areas associated uh with each of uh this type of assets

and early this year everybody been thinking about like stable coins as like one very broad big category. This is not what we think and also now regulators in US uh they also made this uh distinction between payment stable coins. So the ones which are not sharing any interest um with its users like USDC or USDT uh the the two giants but there are many more of those and the yieldbearing products and are those stable coins actually uh and and you can argue about that uh definitely those projects would like to call uh themselves stable coins but not all of them are. There's a lot

of regulatory arbitrage actually and there's like much more nuance into it. Regulators also seen it. That's why the GDS act is actually talking rather only about >> the payment ones. Um and this >> Sam from FX he's laid this out so many times on the show and he's probably been on three four times like there's two types of stable coins. There's the genius compliant now and like there there's like these yield bearing ones. And so it's very it's very clear that that's happening. We're going to get the history of the or the year in review for yield bearing up uh here shortly. Hal, I want to give you a chance to introduce yourself. Give your side of the story.

How did stable watch come about? You and your brother. Who's the smarter one? Who's the who's the more business savvy one? Who gets the more who gets more chicks? Talk to us about what's going on here. >> Oh yeah. So, like to meet you guys. So, so I think TLDDR is uh I think for clarity you know P is the founder so he does all the you know kind of like flack and hard work uh right we are literally like shouting at him in internal chats and that's our role as usual and for me I have been like you know doing full-time VI since like 2021 and before that uh I was doing uh FX and rights for like emerging markets uh in a huge institution so went from trading illquid stuff to trading highly speculative

liquid stuff you So it's like [laughter] one and a half and obviously once you used to do finance in the past it still chases you. So so sooner or later you realize that everything we do here uh are various riskings or kind of like various takes on some old concept of finance uh that we'll try to solve under new constraints. Uh right because what blockchain gave us was insane transparency and insane speed. uh but had some trade-offs uh and and this was basically very very uh interesting things. So throughout like the few years was lucky to work on a few projects and we sp we like all the crazy things it started completely randomly which means he

wanted to move from the telegram channel to more like data and then we started to d into data and then at some time we realized that hey actually we have more data than anyone else uh just through like you know pure force of like sheer will you know so so it was like a very nitian thing I I I would say >> Robbie and I met at at the University of he's not here in in university and I had a bit of like a a marketing background and I just we just got on a call one day and we were like dude we should start a podcast. This was like April 2020. Um and then we just filmed our first show and then it you know the rest is kind of history. So that's a it's awesome. It starts small and then you realize you

got this edge in data as you're saying Ho and you guys have a lot of desire and and obviously you get the point of what we're doing here. You've been here for four or five years now. you personally at least it's you see the vi the vision the value. So guys thanks for being here. Let's kick this off year in review. Let's start with yield bearing stable coins guys. Um Poter you did a great job there explaining kind of how they work and and how they're a little bit regulatory different than uh genius compliant stable coins. Um they've obviously caught a huge bid. I mean January we started at seven and a half billion dollars in total supply TVL for top uh yield bearing stable coins. We topped out in November uh just after kind of the whole 10-10 thing uh about

22 21 billion there just slightly down closer to the 20 billion mark now. I mean guys what a year 3x or so on yield bearing stable coin supply. Um what are your you know uh reactions here Leo? If you scroll down just a bit you can actually see the uh stable coin names and the colorings. Um but Ptor kick us off here. Did you expect this? What led this? Why did we see a 3x in yield bearing stable coins uh supply given that we had a a rate cutting year this year with the Fed? Um you know we we had different kind of quantitative tightening from the macro level that's come to an end but clearly there has been demand for these uh assets. Talk to us about what happened this year.

>> Yeah. So, uh, yeah, we definitely like expected it because this is like amazing category and and we realized it's pretty much earlier than than a lot of people in the market. That's why we've bet with all this data and research on this category. And I don't know how many times I've heard it in this space, but we're very early I believe with this yield bearing space as all of the um credit and this type like private credit like CLOS's this type of instruments I believe they're going to be tokenized in the next few years and there's a lot of push with the thread players to actually common chain everybody from the big names is not even experimenting they actually like having the department departments which are working heavily

on coming and tokenizing stuff. So, so this is happening already. So, I assume that we got still really um a lot of upside when you look at TF at at the total market and what happened is um even slightly before this year uh we had only two players really focus on on the category. So Sky but before the um the rebranding so still as a maker with savings die and then Etheina and uh the SD actually savings die been really great product work for quite some time but not so many people been interested uh about it but then a lot of hype came

when Athena um guys tokenized the uh the delta neutral trade right we've seen a lot of investors being like killing each other to to get into the drought etc. And at that point of time that was big alpha which could be tokenized and actually the yields at the beginning of uh of SUSD been very very high and relatively risk adjusted to say if you compare it to like whatever other options you had in the D5 market at that point. Um but over the time what the the biggest uh unlock for growing the category being definitely those two

projects which showed a lot of people that uh people are interested in just having their stable coins being put to work and get some yield, right? that maybe they don't want to have like ETH exposure or at least not directly and they feel much more safe if the asset is somehow associated with having this PEG or whatever kind of support at around one uh one level uh right so that been it and the other trigger actually as I said earlier being the um bridge acquisition by Stripe so people realize hey I can't really got exposure into this stable coin space anyhow >> what [snorts] I can do to to you know calm and and get some yields whatever

how I can get exposure and I believe I believe this is why we um we've seen this growth and if you look at this chart you're going to see that actually like big part of it is the market as other YBS's because beside like 3x growth when it comes to the uh TVL at the moment we also experience I think like >> 30x or even more growth of projects which are uh providing [clears throat] such services. So at the beginning of the year they've been few and I remember I like did some some research and made like Excel file I found more than 100 of them in April like this post really boomed on on Twitter and from that time

still each month you can see quite few projects new projects come to the space most of them are actually replicating models which are not scalable not not safety either so there's a lot of stuff to be really >> and and we saw different events shape this market this year, right? Like for example, Sky just launched their OEX incubator. That's probably going to shape the trajectory of their growth next year. Athena had that hardcoded 1010 event where had a not saved their ass and Binance not have screwed them over probably in some way, the whole market structure would look different for them and they they got a big TVL decrease uh from that as well. Um, and you just kind of seeing a lot of sentiment readjusting. Uh, Halo, from

from your side, but the more specific teams here, I'm gonna put you on the spot a bit here. Where do you expect the the majority of growth to come from from the SURSDS, SUSD, build, syrup, USDC or USYC? Um, or others kind of where are you placing your bets for growth for 2026 based on what happened this year in 2025? And just any other thoughts to add on to there? Uh I I would say as follows uh it depends whenever we are going to look into DeFi uh and having more from DeFi or are we going to look into external sources. I think with like because I I think Etheina has been the flagship trade for the past two years, right? Literally Etheina went from called from being called with very

dubious names I will not quote here into being the biggest, you know, thing in DeFi and when and and it's worth maybe jumping back to some kind of like DeFi archaeology. Uh so Etheina has been the flagship you could say delta neutral or like the basis trait. So the guys were insanely smart enough to realize that you have lots of free food on the table. You can tokenize and you can grow because the rates have been very very easy to farm and to get uh and to get insane yield over the risky rate. So any risk takingaking was really worth it.

And if you remember guys, if you have been here before, let's say 2022 and 2023 early on uh when GMX was the biggest per platform, they have their tokenized LP position that some people also tried to build delta delta neutral about. They all blew up. >> Yeah. GLP man >> because all GLP they all started to lose money. So it was very interesting to see how people will going are going to extract money from Delta neutral this year. I was like very curious to see if and when and how. Uh but what was interesting is that Athena basically said hey we have found the alpha which was hidden by it public and they let it grow insanely high. Uh which means if we discover any

new source and we manage to mine this source of alpha uh from any new source in DeFi then I think it's up to Ethan up to anyone else to once again find it grow right now. He's on team Athena. How could team Athena bull? I'm going to just I'm going to just fade that completely. I did miss the Athena siege round. They didn't let me in. So I as an investor, I must FUD them. Um I must go with the uh Build Black Rock Build and Securitize. I think that's going to absolutely explode next year. And then I would actually go with the USDS. I think OEX is going to come through. We've been having the framework guys on every couple of weeks and they've just been sky pilling me till non-stop. Um now that would be my

>> great [clears throat] yeah sky peeling is great and I think skyping is like the best of both world because sky if you look into sky sky is actively managed uh and sky is coded which means most likely if you don't want to chase good stuff uh sky is is doing that for you right so you see uh and it's like completely transparent that you can see sky specing in real life and you can see where the guys were and quite often the sky team is in the hot safe stuff before anyone else uh And that's very interesting, right? But then when we think about build about offchain assets, >> this is like very something you can like talk for hours about. Uh because >> technically we are porting real life fields onto blockchain. Uh which is

super cool. We are still very early uh and right now the cost of doing so is still expensive. When you look inside the cost of setting up things, tokenizing the level of expenses is crazy high. Uh so if this continues to grow uh if consumer says we want faster, better, cheaper, more transparent, everyone wins. And I think >> if we want for this sector to win, we also need to kind of like tell guys we like it, but you want more, more transparent and cheaper. Uh and then suddenly you basically open and like democratize access to lots of like instruments to the people.

>> Well, that's why I like these NEO bank plays. I I like the plasma one thing before the chart went down 95%. I am an investor in that one. That feels bad, man. It feels still up somehow but feels bad. Um, Kraken, Coinbase, all these kind of neo bank apps, they get that democratization of access to stable coins globally and like now they're doing with tokenized equities. It's just going to keep growing, guys. So, this is yield bearing stable coins supply. Uh, we're going to switch to the heat map because I'm a little bit confused as to what's going on with this heat map. So, we're going to have to ask our local risk manager, Halco, here and founder of stable watch Pear about about this heat map coming up. But yeah, I mean guys, it's clear that the yield bearing stable coin supply is going to grow next year.

Um, and we'll see where we end up. I I I would expect uh 100 billion to be in sight to be honest. >> Yeah. So, so let's switch to the Oh, okay. We waiting. Yeah, we have it. So, uh, as you can see, there's like one huge winner. Uh, and and really easy to spot it. And we add I would need to add something to to what Halo said about Etheina. It's like the strategy is great. However, it's like pretty much the alpha is over. Too many people at the moment are like spicy, >> right? So, I think Etheina is definitely going to come up with with some new ideas. There's strata new crunch products. So, the team is doing uh great. However, like this strategy not

going to provide the same kind of returns at it used to. And you can just see it uh at any other ecosystem which don't have SUSD deployed. They always ha they always has some um local option. Some smaller team going to do it. But the yields is never at the same level as when SUSD been launched. >> And their converge chain too, man. I mean at terminal shut down. There's like this terminal decks. I I don't know if you guys saw that. They announced that they were shutting down converge. I haven't heard much from that. that was listed like the Athena securitized chain. Um, I don't know, man. They're they're I I'm not one to stomp on any grades. I think Athena is going to do

great, but I'm uh I hear what you're saying, Per. It's a the 1010 just kind of shook a lot of people out of that purpose farming trade. I think the purpose farming was super active and I think it it shook a lot of people's boots about Athena. We'll see. We'll see their their comeback and if they can create more alpha. Obviously, SUSDs 791% here. build 200% syrup 2500%. What are we looking at here? It's an over overview of yield bearing stable coins market leaders uh showing supplies and colorcoded 365 day supply chain indicators. Okay, gotcha.

>> But thing is worth adding here. It's all apples and oranges, right? Because you know yield bearing stable coins is a gigantic bucket. You can throw in lots of things. Uh it's kind of like you know saying fixed income or like bonds are like one thing and obviously you look inside and everything is different. So very quickly we realized right and we kind of like came with like all the categories of you could say uh state yield bearing stables technically uh technically of those uh even themselves they do not market themselves as yield bearing stables but more of like uh tokenized yield assets because they both say we may not necessarily be stable some of our principle may be at risk because we are doing risk kind of like risk takingaking within some frontiers

right so so lots of those things should be a little bit volatile by by design. The same thing you look into trfa, you look into all those like you know bond ETFs, credit ETFs, they all are volatile. They all change over time. They may go they mostly go up sometimes not right and and with the yield bearing stables how to call them uh we we also have the same right that where you may see you'll bring stable A offering 4% and B offering 8% but you need to answer right what's what's inside right so so technically you know looking into the most flagship thing right uh one of those could be some kind of like very safe wrapper of either like offchain assets and maybe safe positions

Uh something else could be a black box. So you may have more black boxes that were like more tested. So so the famous Athena that we mentioned or you may have actually like evil black boxes. So the infamous stream, right, which you know ended horribly and and it's as you even said yourself right uh with those black boxes uh come great risks uh because lots of assets we can price onchain in real life. those strategies uh face lots of new problems because once again think about you run a fund you have fund units you report your NAV once a day once a week once a month maybe now think about Athena and peers of Athena which are also tokenized strategies you are either

subject to reporting live which is impossible or you try to still report your actual holdings once a day once a week >> uh and that's where this problem that you describe in other comes from where you may have a divergence between the book value or like the actual market value of the product and the market expectations right which means if >> Athena hadn't been kind of like hardcoded uh it would have repriced under the market panic and could have exactly triggered a big spiral uh some protocols like a went with like hard coding the price thinking we believe into kind of like book asset value and whatever happens happens but this is a

massive trade And this is a massive challenge and I think if this is messiest uh we will all also pay a price. So so we had to like be very very careful. >> Yeah. It's DeFi after all isn't it supposed to be permissionless? Yeah. Pure uh ad there. >> Yeah. So when you when you look at this chart um one thing to add is when you manage like any money like one of the things you you should care about is the concentration risk and why Ethere is experiencing this uh draw down in the TVL uh quite massive is because the whole yield is coming only from a one source. of this trade right on the exchanges with the the basis trade and then there's a neutral position and um kind of people who are using all those

products those are pretty much sophisticated people who are here in D5 for quite some time because uh hey we don't have any new real users uh for the last few months probably and those people know that they you know they don't want to lose money and the only option to diversify your portfolio and the pretty much in secure spots with it is uh sky so susd and that's why you can see that at the moment this is the biggest yield bearing stable coin is one thing the other is that it experienced the most growth and I think two factors add to to it here one is that the portfolio is really diversified actually

sky used to allocate through spark and spark liquidity layers one of the subdials into Ethenina but they withdraw uh all of the positions when >> before 1010. >> Yeah. Yeah. So before that and around that time that's it. Um but it's not only in DeFi actually we like work on the risk side with a lot of clients and our stance is that uh DeFi at the moment it's not as scalable uh for really large capital. That's why what is happening you can see that a lot of >> tokenized assets but >> yeah and T bills and treasury bonds and all these types of things right pushing

that with grove and >> and even with rates coming down Per now it's like T bills were like the standard like the set like the one all be all US bills but now it's like well rates coming down we need to look at some CLOS's and stuff as well guys we're we're going to flip to the yield paid out by yield bearing stable coins uh chart but Please future please because it it finish it as sharp. So as you said like growth and like overall sky is doing really great work when it comes to diversifying the portfolio and letting you as user in whatever part of the world can be Africa where you can zero option to tap into US uh financial markets and especially like credit like large institutions and uh

growth in sky invested in JA for example and thanks to that uh you can you can say that they're lending money to Burger King for example. Not many people talking about it but like really huge things happened this year uh to in our space mostly thanks to Sky and this is pretty pretty not like widely known what Sky is doing because like bows are really really hard to understand if you're going to look at >> yeah right and all of those governance um governance writeups from the sky it's it's pretty complicated to comprehend all of that. So hint from our side look and and follow statch and something like sky learning center maybe calling to

your home uh Q1 but uh when you're going to look at the yield paid out um we cross like cumulative YPO for this year this number for this year is like 135 mil but uh from the start so you could say one and a half year we already paid more than one billion uh of yield paid out And you can think that it's great number. My prediction also is that we're going to cross that seal this year. We did actually we had a market at Koshi on that. So you can bet on this pretty pretty cool uh yeah feed with our data.

Um and this is great for the space but we get much much higher. This is not even like 1% of what uh what is paid out by trade institutions with any dividend or like payment out like lending. >> Yeah, we're like a still a small niche for like you know 100 people that's online like what do you think about realistically and we are literally like the alternative of the alternative solutions. Uh so so we may be thinking wow like you know >> uh because I think it's worth lots of us uh come from various backgrounds uh and for like average person anything beyond $1 million is a number hard to imagine so especially like you know billion uh

sounds impressive but then you compare ourselves like the entire defi to still traditional managers and we say hey I've got like one billion say oh that's so cool like this like baby number call us like 20 billion you know and then you realize like entire D5 like in terms of like stable coin supply is still nothing right compared to the lots of things which like traditional finance. So uh assuming if we are believing that like blockchain is like a future rail uh we are so early that when you think about this graphs about the scale we are as much on on the left as you can imagine right it's still everything is like in front of us yeah like literally like very bullish so

>> yeah yeah so the core trends here guys um uh SUSD growth all the way through October 1010 then compression [clears throat] um other other yield bearing stables slight growth big growth also compression general growth and compression following the market it's quite interesting how even though stable coins are stable coins and they're yield bearing stable coins are meant to be a dollar and hold that value they also kind of trend with the market like it was up a bit in Jan and then it kind of pulled back as you can see a slight pullback when the market pulled back into March Bitcoin pulled back down to 75k or so and then we rode it up to 125 in October stable coins yield paid off

and grow. Now we pull back a bit. This is a super left brain like super smooth brain question but what's happening here? Why is this happening? >> I think >> I think yeah. >> Oh go ahead. Okay. Yeah. >> Like many many things here going on. >> Few factors but like what one of this probably is that we see that like with any wave of like new cool technology there's a lot of like you know helicopter money coming to this space. So if we see that topic is hot because the market condition is great the more VC is also going to pump money into the market. The more projects of this kind going to come up uh with some additional incentives etc. Um we actually at stable

pl only real yield. So whatever >> you can see here this is only real yield. There's no like additional governance tokens or whatever. But still my a lot of users are coming to the space because of launches of those new products. They also want to earn points or whatever kind of another incentives. Um so this is the the one stuff. uh and uh the other is that's yeah uh it's just very much dependent uh dependent on the market uh as you say before because it's still um big part of this capital is coming from retail steel uh I would say

that uh yeah some part those are institutions this capital is actually much more sticky at the moment even if you could think that it's mercenary because mercenary Capital is always looking for the the best risk adjusted option. So that's why it stays with with Sky for example, but retail is uh much more likely to move out and move in just based on emotions. And this is mostly what we experiencing here in in this chart. Yeah, maybe H you want to add something?

>> Yeah, HCO. Right before you do, I'm going to show you another chart that's going to allow you to tag team your thought here into the APY conversation. We'll flip this over into the APY chart. talk to us about some of the risk adjusted returns, why why this chart emulates the crypto market, and then we'll kind of get into some of the risk adjusted thought processes here. >> Sounds great. Sounds great. Sounds great. >> So, please take take uh add anything that you may. I don't mean to uh get in the way too much. I'm just trying to move it along. Keep show as >> Yes, I think that's a great chart. I I think something that makes a lot of sense when you look even at those both charts is we can literally see right that we mentioned different assets different risk profile. Another thing

that we saw in the previous chart is remember we are still a niche uh and one of the things that we are offering here is regulatory arbitrage. So we still may allow people uh that weren't able to access institutional level of like products to access those finally. uh whether you were non-American or maybe you were like you know maybe it's like American only Europeans only uh $100,000 up only uh very hard to get into the fund because of like regulation custodians much easier to access uh however uh lots of things we see here is a site to quality and there was like levels of like margining which means we need to remember that one of the biggest yield platforms right now is pendal that allows you to and you have some like oil in very simple saying you can leverage

up on your stable coins. Uh which means whenever people are risk on you see for the stable coin supply to go up because people are willing to leverage up right usually the risking uh moments of the risk are the same moments where people unwind their provision burn the stable coins because some stables are issued by providing capital with the other stables. So you have those layers of like wrapping which is some form of like margining right and this way kind of >> yeah kind of kind of right so so that's why where people are risk off they will be exiting their position which means tokens are burnt if the tokens are burnt the supply goes down when they are risk on uh we can see this uh go up again >> leave it to the stable watch risk

manager to to to tell you to it like you're 5 years old had me confused he's like ah there's factors and I'm like dude go on tell me how it is um okay so then parlay that into the APY, right? So you're you're explaining how when the risk is on the the supply increases because looping, right? Pendle, a morpho looping, etc. There's all these different types of opportunities available. Also, just more desire. Um I found that when speculation is high as well, guys, the rates to borrow on a go up on morpho go up because people are willing to borrow stables to go get yield or to go buy more coins and then when it goes down, it goes down. So then how do how do you think that impacted this chart here? Halo, talk to us about

some of the APYs that you see here, how it kind of uh panned out this year as far as what is this the 30-day average APY compared to TBL? >> One thing worth noting here is this is the uh the net API without any tokens incentives, right? So no points here, no like token rewards like pure like dollar paid out. Uh I think the most important thing is on one hand uh we can see the APY. So worth answering like why some things are at like three and a half 4% right and why some are much higher.

Another thing is if we go to the right we see we have the logarithmic scale of the supply and obviously we have one obvious huge big winner which is SUSDS because SUSDS is managed to keep the yield uh at like four and a half% ballpark while being able to scale up to almost 10 bill right lots of stables they sometimes struggle to cross one bill or as we see so with like maybe with with Etheina or maybe with Maple Right? You have this kind of like maximum level of scalability where then your alpha dries out and you cannot beat the >> kind of like in memecoin trading right boys. It's like hard to break the one the one bill mark in the memecoin bull run of 2024 you know sorry for the uh in

you know random injection there but it's like you've got this one billion mark were what five stable coins couldn't get over this year. >> Yeah. So, so, so for them it's kind of like question of scalability, right? How much can you on board with audio or yield compressing and at the same time we have uh assets like for example uh I think build build is like the most I could say obvious one that could be the ballpark of a risky rate. So at some time you are thinking do I want to enter into more risky endeavors? All right. uh or should I just retreat into something that's a proxy for a risk-free proxy because still you know smart contract risk uh middleman risk but it's still some kind of like a safe park right and

is suddenly your uh complex product maybe beats a risk-free rate at 50 beeps you need to start to think is it worth it because it has been if and that's it and that's it and and once once again you see sky right that has been outperforming the RF tokens while being able to scale up uh to like 10 of 10 bill which is which is a huge huge huge feat I think no one has done this >> and there's one important thing to add to this I think because almost no other venue got the same kind of guarantees for you as a user to to make you feel safe because how the like skies model work is that there's uh internal for the ecosystem internal risk capital you can

call it junior risk capital the junior trench which stars or subdows need put into work so they can actually uh manage the disguise balance sheet, right? And that means if that the incentives are totally different from what you can see some curators in whatever kind of market like morph or whatever else do. Um so I I'm not tell those products are not great but the incentives are just uh much different because >> you could seen what happened with the stream finance >> and I think a lot of curators got like no understanding what's going on like behind it like we've been tweeting about like for quite a long time that hey guys you shouldn't really be aping into this

this looks pretty dangerous actually and you should be really careful looking into betting but people didn't want to listen Um and the incentive of such creator is just to max out the TVL. Incentive of those few uh parties which are managing the sky balance sheet uh is different because they put their own capital into work that if they going to uh like be misaligned or you're going to uh not practical move and go ahead too much ahead of the risk. their capital going to be wiped off first and then the system going to close position meaning that uh you know it's it's it's loose for them and hopefully not for users and

there's not system like this anywhere in this space uh besides uh only a actually within the the app recently made some like insurance fund but I I haven't like dig too too deep into it so still it >> I think yeah this is very interesting when you I think Sky is the kind of like biggest trailblazer of like forcing managers put put their neck and put their money on the line which means uh Sky right now has the like subdows you put like Spargo Hobex which means whenever any of the subdows is deploying money they need to put their own capital on the line >> first. So you c so they cannot put depositors money into a product without

them being the first lost tranch which means if they lose money first they lose their own money and only then everyone else gets so we cannot be responsive many protocols do not do this which we actually should change. >> Yeah can I ask about that >> like syrup USDC sitting there at 5 and a half% well over the two bill markish one and 1.8 2.2 two range looks like because that's about where build is around that 2 point something range. What what what [clears throat] is the additional risk associated with SER USDC that allows it to have the five and a half percent rate compared to um the other like the USDE and the USDS that are clearly a bit bigger but can't get the same average T uh APY or even like

what happened like that created that outcome even >> I think you can I think the best answer would be for anyone looking into those products would be to read the documents you know people don't do But quite often and quite often you have to describe like properly right what is going on uh but technically right uh Maples uh Maple's idea is they have their own you could say in a very simple term how to say this they have their own internal curation system where they provide collateralized loans for trusted parties. So for you as a user, you basically trust them that they will be able to

pass your money to the private borrowers at post collateral >> and in general you trust because they have been operating well in the past uh years and you basically are betting that the skill of the team and the skill of the allocators and hopefully the skill of a legal department. >> Trust me, bro. So we're just trust me growing all over again here. I mean >> there is some degree right between tradeoff right between uh between blackboxing and openness and and this is the biggest challenge for 2026 you know.

>> Yeah. U one one more thing for you guys here on this chart. Um well actually first I have never heard of USYC. What is USYC? >> I've never heard of the thing. I can look it up but I'm curious if you guys >> Yeah. Does the does the tokenize money market fund? It's it's some product of uh of circle. So pretty much you got the treadfi uh exposure uh kind of similar to if you'd invest into be or whatever kind of asset which holds tules. So here it's not just yeah money market funds.

Uh I would say similar bracket. >> I should have known that. Circle is a big one. Huh. So they're growing growing that in addition to USDC. Um, okay cool. I guess guys, who do we expect to be leaders in this category next year? And I think in terms of APY and I think rooted the question is rooted in rates are coming down. Trump is bringing in a new Fed share next year. The ECB just also said that they're adjusting for a rate cut cycle.

These yield bearing stables are going to need new forms of yield. However, as we discussed, when speculation is rampant and markets are doing well, yield is increased and the the amount of expansion and supply also increases. And so, when you get rate cuts, you also typically get market expansion because of of liquidity injections. And generally, people get more bullish. So, I'm seeing a recipe here for like some pretty strong growth. Like we said, I think we get to maybe a 100red billion in 2026 for total TV. I think that would be a massive win for yield bearing stables. Um, and then I guess the question is here, what's going to change in the yield component? What do we expect knowing that we're going to get a rate cut cycle? Is that going to be

reduced yield or increased yield? I kind of laid it out. I think there's multiple arguments to be made. And then who do we see really kind of rising to the creme of the creme here in terms of TVL and yield next year? Who would you guys be placing your bets on? Kind of two-part question. >> Yeah. So um I think really that the best position because of uh just no concentration into one strategy like one position is sky and and that the growth still going to be like accelerating um as there's like few factors for it there going to be a lot of credit creation right especially in the US and like big um not only financial but whatever kind institutions in US are

looking always for more money from XL/ Twitter to like Stripe and and some others. They always look for new private credit lines to expand the business. This is this is how it's how it's going, right? Like everybody wants to see S&P chart going up. So, they need more money for this expansion and this money definitely can be find um in the US market from like legacy thread institutions. But I believe that some part of this money actually going to be funneled through amazing uh capital coordination place which is crypto and from places who can coordinate this uh in a good way like sky or like maple actually which also like provided a lot

of uh great uh great moves in like last years and growing in TVL um into this private market. So, so uh private credit market definitely going to help us grow the category. Um this is one thing. The other is that we need to look for like more um niche specific places to allocate this money. And this year I think the two um most interesting things we've seen being USDA where the guys trying to um lend the GPU power, right?

then you can fund that as a retail person. But of course there are also like some larger LPs interested in that and probably more of the like yield bearing vehicles going to be working with this type of venues to try to also get this type of yield and acting as kind of p on pond or so or just a money manager uh while they're diversify their portfolio. some other interesting venture as a as a daylight and I just expect that >> this is just so funny. Sorry to interrupt like I just we talked to Vance and Michael a lot. We talked to AJ from Serotonin. Rob and I are having this conversation like every day for the last two weeks. like, "All right, our brand is completely shifting focusing on these." And everyone just keeps saying

M0, Daylight, USDA, Sky, um you know, you know, a couple others and like this this like tokenization stack and like this is all you got to pay attention to 2026 guys like >> it's just it keeps happening keeps happening. >> Yeah. But there is something also interesting. I have like my own theory uh that comes straight from the trenches. Uh which means if you get the rate cuts people get more greedy because there is like easier to get the money. Uh if people are greedy uh people are more willing to embark onto a risk and I would say something there is one thing that we need to recall what happened in 2020 or 2021 we had insanely low rates close to zero. It was the golden age of

DeFi. Why? Because depositing money in any lending protocol was beating lots of things with regards of risk, right? Because when you think about the risk rate, I have to say this lending markets and all these kind of like most organic more most like current DeFi protocols, they quite often have the curves hardcoded, right? Which means your interest rate is a function of utilization. high utilization, high level of interest rates, people uh borrowing a lot. Uh that means when suddenly in comparison to anything else, those rates look very very good risk adjusted. Right? If your risk-free rate is 4% and big lending platform lending is 4%, it's not great. If your RFR is 1%

and you can go here to DeFi and you can lend at 5%, it's 400 BPS over the risk rate. It's insanely good. >> That is where DeFi shines. when like rates gets around 2% 1% and DeFi is way higher. It's like it's because right now it's pretty much the same and people are pretty bearish on Twitter about it. I saw some tweet it. It was like 4% 4% on money market. What are we doing here guys? >> All right, bro. Come on, man. >> Yeah. But then we have like 1% on money market or maybe zero point half because they need to cover the admin costs and suddenly you know going to the most trusted D5 protocols and getting 4% 5% 6% on like the most basic activity.

Beautiful times. [snorts] I mean to to uh cut off your last point, did you want to finish that up and maybe close us out here guys on just generally your vision for 2026? what what you're seeing here kind of your maybe some like goals or targets for for the space for um stable coins in general and also for your company stable watch like what do you guys have up [snorts] your sleeve? >> Uh sure. So finishing the the prior thought like with uh VSDI daylight and and so on like the bottom line is like we just need more sustainable business models. I think like the next big narrative I mean that that been uh true for bare markets always is you need to make money you need to have actually

real functioning business but I believe while interacting more and more with institutions and there's more institutional money coming into the space uh adjust the way like you will need to have real business touching like real humor like companies problems and so on and this type of companies do that and there's a lot of opportunities especially around like um private credit uh lending activities and so on to come to the space and and boost this. Um and as you said that uh Vans and and the team been been speaking about this recently uh and about OBX uh this is also big acceleration point for Sky Custom I believe as the OBX as accelator

going to be looking for more teams like I think USDI or this type of of a venues to say which uh will be able to structure their product silo risk. So all of the uh balance sheet managers from the sky side or the sky will be able to allocate into it. Um so I think this is the biggest uh unlock for the whole ecosystem actually for the next year and especially for Sky that they're going to be quite few new exciting products um in the space uh and especially Sky and all these subdows going to be profiting off of this. um

all of these new ideas also can do pretty well and all of those people who are not already diversified with their yield strategies with their balance sheets they going to um keep losing and we already see that in in those DVL charts. So until they going to switch into similar mode to uh to sky which is diversifying the balance sheet uh they will have a hard time in the next year. So this is it and for for us it's at stable table watch specifically uh you can expect that actually like we're gonna be proing much more info around the um sky ecosystem. We're working on some new dashboards as we believe that

yeah this is one of the most exciting things in the space uh at all and we want to stay on top and provide all of the info um to our users around that and we thinking of >> here we go yeah of quite few new formats to to provide you alpha and try to help you mitigate uh all of those risks. Uh so this is it and quite sometime soon in Q1 you can probably expect some some one big news from our side but I I please >> Sounds like somebody got a payday. Yes sir. [laughter] >> Maybe hopefully.

>> Awesome conversation today Perhalco. Uh great vibes great year for the yield bearing stable coin space. I'm glad we focused on this today. um kind of like the traditional genius comp um stable coin space is interesting too, but really this yield bearing space is where a lot of the activity at is at uh Quantum Cowgirl. Interesting. X handle. Is this recorded? Yes, it'll be posted on the rollup um YouTube uh shortly after this call ends tonight. Uh it's probably a couple hours it'll be up there. I'll share it with the stable watch guys. I'm sure they will share it. There'll be some nice clips going out.

Guys, we're going to be live for one more guest here talking about Bass and the Coinbase system update, recapping some of the stuff with Bass app. It's been stable coins review stabled up episode number 14 brought to you by our lovely friends at Frack Porto Halo. Boys, incredible work on the company. Looking forward >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much guys. Thank you for having us. Great. >> Always a pleasure guys. Back. Welcome back anytime. Go Sky. Go Yield Stables. It's going to be a big 2026. 100 billion baby. 100 BILLION. [clears throat] ALL RIGHT, BOYS.

>> LATER. >> Let's go. Thank you very much. Bye-bye. >> Yeah. >> All righty, boys. >> Boys and girls. >> All right, >> that was stable up. We'll be right back. Quick update from our boys at Nook and then we'll wrap this thing up. See you guys in a sec. [music] Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game.

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in this career. I can't lie to you guys. I've sold some I've taken some profits. All right, but I think that we get a really big run in the yield bearing stable coins. I'm excited about that. They're really bullish on Sky. I like that a lot. Um, we've been sky peeled pretty heavily. Obviously, Athena had a tough run this year and we'll see more and more kind of come out from the US. Wise the world's billables, uh, Maples's crushing as well as syrup. So, I generally think this like tokenization stack is going to keep growing. Up next, we've got Joey Isacson, the CEO at Nuke. Nuke is a onchain savings app. It should be a great conversation. I think it's probably pronounced Nook. Um, Joey is in San Francisco. He was at the system update event yesterday. I'm sure he's still feeling the energy. Let's bring

Joey up uh and let's get this show on the road. Last guest of the day. Here we go. >> Let's go. >> Joey, welcome to the stream, man. What's going on? >> Uh, pleasure to be here. Yeah, definitely still feeling energy. Uh it was uh crazy energy. Lots of updates last night from the Coinbase team. They were killing it. Uh stoked to be here though. Thanks for having me on. >> Yeah, how are you doing after many back tobacks? That's what I'm >> Yeah, back tobacks are great. Actually, I'm just tired from yesterday's show. So, I was we were like doing a full screen share of the event and commenting and had all these guests and it was great. You were supposed to be on, but of course you're at the event and >> I felt like I was there. I was like, I'm I'm here right now. I mean, I might as

well be at the event. You know, I had Alex Cutler from Aerro. He was calling into the minute at 4:59 p.m. Eastern. So, 1:59 p.m. Pacific. He's like, I got to go. They're playing bass music. I'm like, all right, man. See you later. >> Yeah. Yeah. I saw Alex and he was like, I'm I'm out of here. Did he not stay too long? He had business. So, I'm glad glad he caught up with you guys. Um, >> so did you have a good time? Was there a good cocktail party after how what was the vibes like? >> Yeah, this is So, this is I left uh Coinbase this year, right? So, earlier in January, so it's still fresh. It was great to catch up with people and then see some of those projects that we have been working on come to fruition and like see the team just continue to

develop and deploy and bring these massive things to market. That was awesome. So be able to catch up with the team but also see all the new things uh was great. And then also they brought together probably like a hundred founders from the CBV the Coinbase Ventures portfolio and a lot of like the best people in crypto were in that room. So just the just the happy hour was pretty pretty fun. >> Yeah. Yeah, I saw Brian Armstrong at the bar just like making drink. I saw Brian Armstrong at the bar cooking drinks and like, you know, he was having >> I saw Diet Coke. That's what I saw. >> Okay, Diet Coke. All right, cool. That's my founder right there. Um, Joey, man, what is Nook? Uh, why did you leave Coinbase? I think being a founder is awesome. Everyone has their own journey.

>> Um, what what were you doing at Coinbase? What, you know, why Nook? Why now? >> Yeah, it's a great question. So Nook is our kind of big swing at taking a very different approach to DeFi earning and getting this in the hands of everyone. And so when I was at Coinbase, we built what was like an early version of DeFi lending that's now in the app today, but we built it about three years ago. So it was using D and Compound and it was it was one of the first, you know, Yeah, that's kind of aging me. Uh it was one of the first products to market that was in this neoank style that you were talking about earlier. And it's obviously there's a lot of attention on this space right now like Coinbase lending is fully rolled out with Morpho.

Um Kraken has a has a solution. This is a very different approach we think not from the technology side but really from the approach in terms of the form factor. So what we're betting on is this isn't yield below a trading app or you know three or four screens away from you know the homepage. This is yield and savings right up front. And so we want people who don't know anything about crypto or very little about crypto to feel comfortable coming in and not feel intimidated by chains, protocols, token assets, red charts, green charts. I know you're a little bit bearish, but like I e either way it can be a lot to get into the crypto world and so we're trying to to from a experience perspective go around that.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think that the base app opening up distribution to millions of users on the wait list is enabling a lot of these kind of like defi mullet architectures. Feel like the entire theme of my conversations yesterday was just all about distribution advantages as a use easy UX a platform for for people to to kind of onboard and then come in. So um I know Nook's on the base app. Is it a base mini app? Is that is that part of it? >> Not yet. Not yet. So we're it's hard. I mean, yeah, I know. I know. You saw the Momo app and the Momo app has been crushing.

>> Yeah, that was fun. [laughter] >> Yeah, I So, love love the Momo app. I think we had to make a very concerted like a very specific decision to focus on the non-crypto people that aren't in the base app first. Like, let's make that connection. Let's make that work so that you can introduce your friends to it, your family, etc. Um, before they have to go into a wallet, right? Or a wallet design per se. And so we do want to bring Nook to the base app and the base team has been awesome. We're on base chain. Gotcha. >> But we have not been able to prioritize that yet. We first want to prove out like, okay, is there something here? Do do people want this before we start going into other platforms like the base app. Uh but we've done we recently hit $500 million in transactions. So that

was kind of the first >> milestone or major thing. Okay, there's there's something here like this isn't a fluke and just our friends. So that that's been our approach is is Nook first and then eventually we want to be in, you know, any major app. >> Yeah. >> That will accept us. >> What did that what did that $500 million in transaction milestone? That's pretty big one there. [snorts] What did that scale kind of teach you about your app? About user behavior, about risk, about yield, like what did they like what was the activity like? What did that show you about your user behavior? Like did it give you anything to double down on, etc.

>> Right. Right. Yeah, it's a great question. So, we learned a lot, right? So, we launched in June and so it's been six months of of well, 10 months of of grinding and and six months of being live. >> Yeah. >> I think the two main things we learned about is how to communicate to people outside of crypto. I think we can talk about chains, rewards, and just jump straight into the nitty-gritty that the stuff we love and the stuff that you're very well verssed in. Um, that doesn't work with everyday people that we're going after. it has to be more on their terms and explain the fundamentals and really abstract away most of the technology. So I think that was probably the most important part is really us learning our pitch because you know for the past four years I was working at Coinbase and everyone knows most people

know Coinbase >> and I could leverage that brand with Nook and our comms. We don't have a big comm's team like we have to we have to do the coms. We have to nail that message. So that was the first thing and then second thing was on-ramping. So I think a lot of crypto apps you know, they they they either skip the on-ramp process mostly assuming that people have stable coins or USC on chain already or they kind of just phone it in. But we have really made it like the easiest on-ramp process into DeFi from a wire or etc. straight into the highest earning protocol with no bridging, no extra steps, etc. And 84% of our transactions are coming from bank accounts, right?

Versus a lot of crypto apps. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're like we're pretty focused, right? focused on this banking like like this like trad sector, this non-crypto sector. So 84% of deposits are coming from banks, which is great because it shows, you know, we're reaching outside of the the crypto world. I think if we were just battling for other Coinbase, existing Coinbase customers, it wouldn't be worth it. I would probably just stay at Coinbase. Um, but we want to reach a new segment and like fully build out the ecosystem so we complement each other. >> Cool, man. I think I think we're going to get the uh Morpho Vault uh illustration up on the screen here in a second. Um but talk to us about the user flow then. I have you know a bank account Wells Fargo TD whatever it is. I

use Nook. What am I using Nook for and what is my user flow to do it? How have you made it easy? I'm super curious. I honestly want to try it. Yeah. Yeah. >> I have this habit of trying things live on the stream. [laughter] >> I don't know if I can >> Let me just give it Let me just give you the overview and then uh um Yeah. So we tried to remove we've removed 12 pro like 12 steps of this process of getting on board into a protocol and I've sat friends family customers down and tried to get them onto Morpho and a etc using uh a proper you know Chrome extension self-custody wallet.

>> Oh yeah it's a pain man. >> It's a pain like if you've never done that before >> it's a pain and it's a risk. It's a risk too you know. >> Yeah. >> Christmas is coming up. Hanukkah is coming up. um spend 10 spend 10 15 minutes and like really see that experience and you will gain a lot of empathy. So what we've done is we've partnered with Plaid. So you log in with Wells Fargo for example example into your Plaid account and then with Plaid we do an a poll from your Plaid account using Astro Finance and then from Astro Finance money is transferred into the Bridge account and then bridge converts your cash to a stable coin and then sends to your Nook wallet. That sounds like a lot and it is behind the scenes.

Um, but as a user, it's just like depositing money into Robin Hood or any other web 2 account. I think the the major thing that we've learned is and then from there you don't have to like select a protocol or select a chain. It just goes into the highest earning protocol that we have whitelisted. And so I think the biggest thing there is we get a lot of customers who are like, hey, you know, where's my money? Usually Robin Hood takes 30 seconds. Well, Robin Hood is floating you that money, right? you can put $50,000 on and they'll let you trade with $50,000, no problem, because it's it's house money. You're not actually that's not actually your cash. That's that's chips in the casino.

What people don't realize because they're so used to those types of apps in the web two fiat rails is they're now actually transacting onchain with crypto uh using a self-custody wallet, but we've made it so easy to the point where u they're using that technology without having to go through the pain that I talked about earlier. So, it's it's really trying to focus on the end experience is is the main thing. >> And then the Nook app, is that in the App Store as well? >> Okay, cool. >> Google in the Google App Store place u Apple App Store, we've been live for like five months.

>> Yeah. >> And so, that's been a huge spread to get it there. >> Cool. So, we got the Yield Explorer on the screen here. Um, and I anticipate it's So, uh, what are we looking at here? And I guess if we move our mouse around, things will change around maybe, but we're looking at a visualization of the Morpho vaults here. 633 vaults. Um, and this is on the Nook app website on web. Uh, so what are we looking at here? And can our uh team on the back kind of move things around or Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can you can adjust by um filter by TVL, filter by APY. You can see the number of chains. 12 billion dollars in TVL just through the Morpho protocol alone. Um, I I think what I what the team did here was visualize not the all the ins and outs of yield. I

think the stable team that you just had on, they're incredible at showing all the details of yield bearing, like yield bearing stable coins, these protocols, right? What's the the TVL, the risk, all of the nitty-gritty details, but we want to represent the opportunity in a more intuitive in a different type of way versus just graphs and tables and overwhelming people. So, if you've never gone into a a earnings app like Nook, if you've never been on chain with DeFi, this is a great way to explore. Hey, here's here's the 600 plus markets that make up this 12 billion in value on just Morpho alone, right? They're $70 billion on a as well, not listed here. Here's the opportunity, and there's a there's a whole world of of options here. And I'm very bullish on vaults for 2020.

>> So, this is super sick. So, these are all the vaults, all the yields, the different providers. you're bullish on stable coin yield as a really or like let's call it yield bearing stables vaults as part of the underlying for nook >> and so you guys are like analyzing these vaults real time giving your your depositors access to different uh yields um how does that kind of work behind the scenes and and what our our team is clicking on here is just the different opportunities on chain if I'm not mistaken and the value >> log the team the team nailed it yeah you're you're you're looking at a optimistic view of the entire ecosystem right you can filter by chain you can filter by APY etc. So if you want to toggle over um if you want to close out of that modal and then hit the APY

toggle, you can instead of focusing by TVL um you can focus by the high APY. So you'll see you know double digit APYs and explore those opportunities and maybe those are right for you. But I think what we're missing today is yield as a as a concept is kind of couched in terms of it's so risk on in some ways in terms of how it's presented that no one's presenting in like a holistic o like opportunistic way and I think basically this and nook is trying to close that gap. So eventually we want you to access any protocol, any chain that you feel comfortable with to earn and you you know you say your risk level and we introduce you to the right people

like I know you're a fan of Athena. We were talking about Sky earlier. There's so many great protocols and that's when I realized when I joined Coinbase but they are really missing I think great representation and today like I don't have an app in my hand that I absolutely love. Nook is good. I think it's it's got a lot long ways to go, but like I don't have an app in my hand that I can access all of the potential of onchain faults. >> Well, I'm trying to get one in my hand right now. Is this thing on the app store? [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah, it's on the app store. Um savings app. >> It's Yeah, it's super simple. So, what we did is we partnered with Privy. All you need is an email and you can set up 2FA.

>> All right. Here we go. The old usual download the apps and try them live. >> Oh, damn. You're doing it live. Rio, why don't we flip off of um off of the share here, go back to the two of us and we can just kind of talk through this concept here uh Joey that I just we just keep seeing right so even Coinbase with their announcement yesterday that just full verticalization of the stack everything app etc. Um, obviously Robin Hood partnered up with Lighter. They're going to uh introduce PERPS there. Phantom is using um Hyperlquid for pers. MetaMask is is bringing in Poly Market for predictions. Uh you would imagine Revolute may want to collaborate with a or Moro and Coinbase. Like there's all these different kind of offerings that are coming from the FinTex. Um, and it all centers around this distribution and

around this idea of like I from from my perspective, I was telling Robbie this earlier is like this app, if you get the Coinbase app, and I feel like it probably applies to Nook as well, whereas like if you if you're a user of these apps and you actually invest your time into using them and growing your wealth in there, it's like this personal finance journey that you're trying to take somebody on here, Joey. You're trying to get me day one downloading Nook here and then you're trying to get me into year five being like, "Wow, I actually made money every single year on Nook and now I need this app because I get I just make money on it. I always make money on this app. It's my personal finance growing >> number stays number stays green on Nook.

I don't think we have red red numbers in the app." So yeah, >> there you go. And so talk to us about kind of like that loyalty building, how you view like the uh customer retention creation, like this kind of NeoAng [clears throat] story just keeps coming up. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I think the big thing in the first few months of like any venture is you just have to really talk to your customer and listen and it's like very much handtohand comment. I see too many protocols, chains, etc. just be like this is our technology and they just like shove it down your throat with like boosts and etc. and all you're doing is getting mercenary capital to to join you for a few months and then they fizzle out after a token launch or something. Building a real consumer business is incredibly tough, but

customers will pick up on it if you're authentic, if you're sincere, if you're telling the truth and you're there to answer their questions and help them along the way. Like you have a customer and you have a relationship versus otherwise you have an incentive program that will will die as quickly as it started. So, the journey has been off to a good start with high yield. I think I think you're right. We probably are headed into a bare market, but what we've seen in terms of retention is that 50% of users retain in terms of they're still open up the app uh a month later and then about 67% of our users are are still deposited close to their maximum amount. So, some people have been mercenaries, they come, they leave, but most people are not, right? Most people are saying, "Hey, the rates dipped.

Fine. That's cool. I trust you guys, right? and when the rates go up, they'll be well positioned. Uh they're not going from app to app, chain to chain because they're not that type of customer, right? They they want to live their lives. They don't want to be on screens for four hours a day. They don't want to look at the dashboards. Um so building that type of relationship, although I think it is harder upfront to be honest, um versus I think you know some traders will just instantly join your app if your rate is high enough. I think it will play out in the long term. And that is a main differentiator from from Nook is that I think a lot of these apps treat yield as a retention tool to complement their trading business because the trading business is just incredibly lucrative.

>> But they don't really want you in yield, right? They want you trading, right? They want you in hyperlquid. They want you in this type of stuff. Yeah. >> Yeah. Like the margins there were [ __ ] nuts. Yeah, but I'm not gonna like like I see like the sources here. You've got a steakhouse, Spark, couple others here >> and I'm not going to get liquidated on Nook. >> That's just not going to happen. You know what I mean? >> I can't promise that. I cannot promise that. >> I mean, yeah, of course. You cannot promise a seamless spark steakhouse and gauntlet to not rug us. I I get that.

And that's the hard part with all this onchain savings stuff is like gosh the smart contract risk is sometimes so it's like the day of a life of a turkey where it's like everything's so good and then it's just like ah >> now a spark gauntlet like >> I mean if these things can't supply us basically like a slightly above the risk adjusted free rate with like very little risk then DeFi is just not going to win. And so like you got to be an optimistic bull on like the the security of a and the security of the morpho like you got to be optimistic enough but I still man like I I have some funds in in the money markets in in like the traditional markets in like a schwab account and and

I feel great. I feel super safe. I I know that there's problems that can happen there but there's still like a level of risk tolerance like I don't know. I think it's good to for consumers, investors to have stable coins earning yield and have money market funds earning yield if that's your safe buckets. I wouldn't be putting all mine into stable coins in smart contracts. And I know that's just like not what I should be saying because I run a bucket. >> I say I I tell I tell customers all the time. They say, "Hey, I just, you know, I just got um you know, we we tend to talk to a lot of customers who are very early in their financial journey. Hey, I just got my first bonus, my first sales bonus. I've got $5,000, right? Should I put it all into Nook or I've got my

first paycheck even? And oftentimes I'll say no. You know, you should have I pull out like standard good finance practice, but like you should have three to six months of of cash on hand for an emergency and then when you want to diversify to an investment level, >> you know, go into Nook. And so I'm happy being the Dave Ramsey of the crypto world just trying to like be the judgmental [snorts] adult in the in the room. >> Good luck with that. All right. You got a long ways to go there, Mr. that scale, but you got that message followers. >> Come on, Joe.

>> No, I'm never going to get to that scale. But in terms of like the the tone and like the the direct approach, >> when everyone's trying to sell something, a per, a Dex, you know, a 500X, like there I think for this industry to mature, there needs to be something more realistic in the room. >> Yeah, I agree, man. Joey, man, it's been a pleasure. I I got the app. I I got to run through the usual stuff, but I think I'm going to throw a G or something on there, test it out, and >> yeah, I've been I've been uh I've got some capital laying around for chill chiller investments. >> Share it. You're a crypto pro, so you know, you obviously know how to do these things, but share it with friends and then let me know what you think. I'm genuinely cur curious.

>> So far, my feedback is ah here here we go. Another KYC, but that's that's things. >> Can't avoid that. Sorry. >> Yeah. Don't worry, man. Thanks for joining. All right. It's been a pleasure. Best of luck on the journey here. It's it's going to be a growth phase next year. I just as you saw we had the stable watch guys on last and you know rates coming down means these kind of yield bearing products need to you know diversify into CLOS and different types of uh fintech products and usually with lower rates comes more speculation in crypto. So hopefully we get this generally a higher rate for stable coins next year than Trump's trifecta getting us down to 1% 2% next year is seems to be his mandate. Um, so that should lead to a pretty big speculative kind of growth phase which

hopefully we see that reflecting the yield bearing stable coin TVL expansion which hopefully comes into nook and makes it a really good year for you guys. So uh, happy holidays man and uh, hope you guys have a good year. We'll have to catch up soon. >> Yeah, same to you there Andy. See you. >> Bye. All right, lads and lises. I'm cooked. I'm done. I am fired up. It is a 3:39 p.m. on a Thursday. Vibes are up. Uh, I have not checked the market. Kind of scared. Oh my god. Wow.

Dude, the market is cooked. Oh. [gasps] Oh, I'm laughing, but it's not funny, man. Oh, god. Hyperlid at 22.9. The pain's got to be over soon for our old boy hype. Oh, does it ever. Oh my god. Oh, capitulation, guys. So, this is altcoin capitulation, guys. This is it. We're in it. We're It might take another week or two. Maybe it stops by the end of the year, maybe sooner. But we're witnessing what needs to happen before we get another altcoin bull run. Before we get another crypto bull run. Stefan

Diggs, my pin tweet. I'll pin it again. Stefan told me we go up only parabolic tra mode after we wash out the tourists. Ladies and gentlemen, we are in the process of washing out the tourists. I'm sorry if you are getting hit right now. It is all right. There is an institutional bull run happening on Wall Street on in NYC in major t tier one cities. The institutional bull run is on. Guys, do not leave the market. Do not leave this space. If this bull market was so different than the previous, one could expect the bare market to also be quite different. My take is it's a shorter, less painful

bare market for Bitcoin at least. It's not a it's not a Bitcoin to 20K, 30K bare market. It's not going to be that bad. It's not going to last that long. I think October 2026 is the farthest thing we could get with this thing. I think more of Q1, Q2 next year will be looking nice, guys. If we get our chance to buy crypto assets at a major discount and pessimism is at all-time highs, you best believe we're we're going to be buying crypto assets at a discount. And we're going to be buying them in size.

We're going to be buying them in size. Salana's going under 100. It's about to happen. It looks terrible. Hyperlid probably goes under 20. Looks terrible. Ethereum that 2500 level 2250 2500 level is looking about ready to be hit. Guys, I don't know what to tell you right now, but it's hard to be short-term bullish on this market knowing that there's all these tax loss harvesting that's going to happen by people who are down on their positions.

Um, yeah. I mean, I think I'm over exaggerating this with like the somber tone. Like, guys, it's all over, but please have your risk managed. Um, things could always get worse. There will be a time where pessimism will re supreme on the crypto Twitter. Bear porn will perform the the best. The market will react to people who are bearish as if they are some sort of prophets.

Prophets meaning like a god of some type. And we will we will punish late bears. Late bears will get smoked. And they're going to get smoked hard. But until then guys we sit back. We enjoy the family time and the holidays. We be reasonable with our portfolios and we relax because late bears will get punished and we're going to punish them. I'm telling you, we're going to punish them. We're going to punish them hard. We're going to [ __ ] [ __ ] them up. But until it's time to give those late Bears a new butthole, excuse my French,

you got to stay patient and you got to stay tight and you got to keep it low. You got to keep your risk adjusted and you got to make sure that you're have a plan. And my plan is to absolutely gobble up crypto assets at prices when pessimistic bears will rain the loudest on the timeline. And we'll gobble them up and we'll we'll hold. And it won't be easy. It will not be easy to hold. But boy oh boy are we gonna have to do it. And we're gonna have to hold the line. And we're going to dollar cost average into this market lower.

And and we're going to be the victors of the next Bitcoin and crypto bull run. And it's going to come sooner than people think. And it's not going to be as painful as it's been in the past. A lot of altcoins will have a lot of pain, but if you're not holding a lot of altcoins, you're not going to have as much pain. Bitcoin, I don't believe, goes under 50. That would be crazy. 60Ks would be insane. And I would love to be a buyer there. We're at 85 right now. 75 is likely ahead. Guys, Thursday, December 18th.

Much love. Speak to you soon. Stay frosty. Stay cozy. Last day of the stream tomorrow for the week. Peace. >> [music]