Inside Cosmos: Culture, Challenges, and Vision with Robert Kelley

Transcript

what's your sense of the vibe compared to last year I'm curious I get the sense of a little bit of like self flagellation it's been a long bare market and you can feel it these other ecosystems tend to be trying to build one system one system to sort of optimize on one variable yeah and Cosmos is building a system of systems and the difference between that is like the difference between algebra and pulus act like a winner this is kind of the message I want to give Cosmos is like recognize take the W you know you don't have to be like all these other people and organizations and whatever that that that feel victimize like Cosmos is actually the winner they haven't figured it out

[Music] yet hey Robert Kelly hey Seb what's going on nice to see you here in Dubai yeah it's been a while it has been a while I've been in the US for like two months yeah yeah so a lot of people in Cosmos may not recognize you but they might know you work right and um yeah so what have you been up to this last has it been two year or a year one year so I came to my first Co cosmoverse last year in asemble

yeah um and I talked to I estimate about 60 people um tried to ask some similar questions about how they felt about the ecosystem how they were doing themselves um and uh I wrote up a a sort of summary of my observations and posted it on the cosmos Hub Forum yeah um and it what was that what was that post called uh an organizational psychology perspective on the cosmos Hub ecosystem something like that yeah uh you got a lot of reaction got a lot of reaction incl from some like from Jay also from Jay Juan I think Jay Ethan Zaki uh uh I yeah a lot of people wound

up reacting some stronger than others yeah um and uh and and what I think I was a little bit surprised about is that all kind of happened and then nothing sort of I couldn't really find a way to get any momentum from that into terms of engaging with the community yeah um so I've it's it's kind of been like my my white whale you know I I've been doing my normal job but I wake up in the morning and I think about the cosmos ecosystem and I go to bed at night and I think about the cosmos ecos system and I I've been percolating these ideas about how to how to engage with the community yeah um and and it's been great to come

back and uh see how people are doing and and getting the reactions of people from like a year later like hey I remember you like yeah yeah yeah so it's it's kind of funny because I mean you know we know each other from just from from the kind of the Paris xack Community you you were one of my Normie friends and now you're one of my crypto friends isn't that funny yeah yeah so so uh so what like what what is your that day job like what do you actually do for people who don't know yeah so I mean I have a I have a degree in organizational Psychology was that mean uh so it's it's um you know the basics of psychology understanding human behavior but

especially in groups and and I I I work as I call it a work psychologist or a business psychologist so understanding how people work in order to get things done yeah um so it could be a business but it could also be uh a charity or it could be a non-governmental organization um but how do people come together what does leadership look like like um and and yeah how do how do how do people get things done yeah so people have like you know s of like coupl couples counseling and you're sort of like business counseling you come in and you like if an organization is having organizational issues or management issues or issues with like the team and management sort

of not working well together or you know some some might see this as sort of like business coaching but at the organizational level and you try to sort of work through those issues with people and find a better balance for everyone um yeah exactly I mean you know we do we'll do like when we do or when I do founders work yeah like that can look a lot like couples counseling you know you have two co-founders and they're not getting along sometimes that's like very analogous to to our relationship yeah um sometimes it's one one leader who's struggling with how to connect with with their employees um and sometimes it's a

it's a whole team that maybe is it's a new team or it's a team that's undergone some changes and they're trying to figure out how to how to uh get back to the point where where they're running on all cylinders yeah now you take that right you take a team or a company that I think you know generally is already like quite a close-knit group you know they may be working in the same building they've been working together for a long time they're in the same slack or or kind of teams groups or whatever um they also I think come into a company with a common purpose how how does that overlap with an ecosystem of teams you sort of scale that up to now an ecosystem of

teams of people um some that have real sort of clear Visions like right so like a company right or maybe just community members and contributors that you know might gravitate and go from one team to another I mean it just seems like it's an impossible POS challenge to solve right and then and but also much more interesting challenge because you're talking about really a global community of people with Divergent interests and yeah well and I think that's for me that's one of the most fascinating things about the cosmos ecosystem because if you compare it to especially other crypto ecosystems there's not a sort of visionary Figure Head who can kind of even if it's

decentralized uh you know technically culturally there's someone who can kind of make a decision Cosmos doesn't have that and that's both a strength and a challenge and you're absolutely right like there there are so many um uh different interests so many different visions and bringing that together has a potential of sort of getting to the best answer you know you you you're that's that's the whole value of decentralization is that you're getting all these different viewpoints and it you know you're bringing in all this different data you're probably in the long run going to outperform one person with one Vision or a couple

people with One Vision um but you can also fail trem like it can fail catastrophically but if you can't communicate yeah you can never get off the ground and then obviously Cosmos has gotten off the ground um but there does seem to be a sort of like uh friction right now in in productivity or in efficiency or whatever because that communication is just not happening uh very very easily yeah uh I was just talking to valo from quazar and you he has a way of thinking of Cosmos as I mean like a two there's like two facades to it there's the there's the tech and the liquidity so it's like business in

the back party in the front right so you have and and tends well to him because he's had a mullet uh at some point I think it's the opposite way isn't it or or in the back part in the background yeah you the tech is in but then the the liquidity but you know we don't have any liquidity or Cosmos doesn't have any liquidity or very little compared to other ecosystems but we have really strong Tech so so begs the question you know is the is the vision for Cosmos to have just really great Tech that makes it into you know the broader kind of crypto ecosystem or is it to have liquidity and the way I like to look at this is um kind of um analogize to uh Linux and in the 90s uh you know Linux was sort of getting off the ground line

of St worlds built Linux on the Unix um um kernel and there were all these different like nerds y fighting about how like the vision for Linux and uh building competing distributions dis shows of Linux and there's you know maybe hundreds or like you know a significant number of Linn distributions many of which you know no one's ever heard heard of or very very people you very few people use but then you end up having the fedoras the ubun and and slackes Etc um but you know today you know fast forward uh 20 years we all use some version of Linux all the time right in our phones in our computers if

you're using Mac or an iPhone or an Android phone you're using a Linux backbone your connected TV has you know some version of Android running on it that that's Linux your connected fridge all your embedded devices all of the server infrastructure for the most part I think with the exception of Windows which also has quite a few now latest components in it um is using this software and but you know do people think that they're using Linux no but at a as a result we all have this better experience this better kind of software uh and Hardware experience as a result of this great work that was done in this early kind of chaos of the and I sort of see Cosmos as the same as

the same thing and I wonder sometimes you know does it really matter that Cosmos doesn't have the liquidity if the technology gets exported to ethereum to salana to all these ecosystems to to bitcoin by you know being the liquidity hub for kind of Bitcoin defi does it matter if you know doesn't make it to you know I mean that's an interesting that's an interesting way to think about it uh because you know there is obviously the the cosmos has been this leader in technology and in technological vision and you know sort of famously ethereum has has followed Cosmos and actually brought these Cosmos Innovations to scale in a way that

Cosmos hasn't been able to um but I think what's what's Ming different is that the vision of Cosmos actually I think is more important than the technology of Cosmos and the the vision is this idea of uh Sovereign interoperability um and that you know is being possible through the technology but it's also a way of of looking at the world you know it's a it's an it's an ethos and um I I feel like that's the part that's actually most important if you say Cosmos succeeds you know in the

and and if you know whether they get the liquidity or not does this ethos of sovereign interoperability wind up sort of becoming all pervasive across across the entire crypto and like Universal ecosystem yeah so what are the what are the things you think that Cosmos needs in order to be able to move forward actually may maybe before that like I think before we get to that uh what do you what what's your sense of the vibe here I know I know it's only day two but what's your sense of the vibe compared to last year curious yeah I mean we talked about this a little bit yesterday uh which is you know I get the

sense of a little bit of like self- flatulation like a little bit of you know we're we've been bad we're not you know doing things the right way and and and a lot of it does feel like it's it's tied to market performance um but the thing is when you look across the broader crypto Market uh aside from like Bitcoin no one's really thriving in the last 12 months you don't really see anyone well salana salana but even salana has been kind of I haven't fallen closely but they've been a little flat right um and you know I I think that there's there's a there's a little bit of we're especially bad and and look

this is based on just a a few uh uh conversations so far this is only the morning of day two um but yeah like it's not it's it's been a long bare Market yeah it's been a long bare market and you can feel it yeah I mean it could be worse you could be ALR I like like sure I mean like some other kind of you know ecosystem very few users and at least I mean I think what Cosmos has going for is like people still see Cosmos is having like a lot of G gigar brains yeah and um from my my conversations here have been I think the sense is that um it's it sort of feels like the

bottom of the cosmos SP Market uh regard regardless of what's happening in the rest of the ecosystem and how other ecosystems are are you know thriving or attracting liquidity or whatever um it feels like a lot of the people who were not fully aligned or did not really believe in the vision or no longer here or you know have left or like are doing other things or maybe focusing on other things um this is anecdotal right this is what people have told me right how they think about it and um and that those who are who are still here are you know really sort of aligned with this long-term Vision even though the

vision I think often has maybe different people have different paths to get there you know the long-term vision of sovereign infrastructure probability Etc I think is the kind of are still the core pillars yeah I I think you're you're absolutely right I mean one thing that this sort of long drought has done has driven the the the people who were here for other reasons away yeah um and you know I I have in in the the conversations I had yesterday people seem to be like hey we're we look around and all right now the people that are left are the people we want to work with um yeah I I did I didn't get that I did

get that feeling as well yeah yeah so yeah what what are the what are your recommendations uh having like looked at the space and yeah yeah I mean you know my my assessment of of Cosmos is that um you talk about three things before yeah so so first of all Cosmos is is really unique like I was just at a different crypto event last night non- Cosmos and The Vibes are so different um it's it's really there is something like really genuinely it's weird it's weird given the the the way that that that uh that

Cosmos tend to operate but it's people are really nice here people are really curious they they Greg of Akash tweeted yesterday that Cosmos is like the only genuine crypto ecosystem left yeah and authentic I I'm paraphrasing authentic is is is I think is is a great word like um people really are interested in in what you have to say uh it doesn't have that sort of feeling of a bunch of sharks uh just circling looking for for for the the easiest short-term opportunity yeah um and you know I think that's that's something that's maybe people take for granted um that that what a special place this is and I and I

I would add one thing to it which is and I mentioned earlier these other ecosystems tend to be they're they're like they're very smart people but they tend to be trying to build one system one system to sort of optimize on one variable yeah and Cosmos is building a system of systems and the difference between that is like the difference between algebra and calculus like it's a whole other level of complexity and it's harder it's like way harder lots of people like were great at algebra and got to calculus and really struggled with it and I I I think that's another thing that that me is not appreciated in among the cosmos

ecosystems what we're doing here is really hard it's really new it's really hard it's really abstract it's like you know you once you start going and you you do calculus and then you start getting to like I don't know number Theory or whatever higher order mathematics there are when you kind of do that work um you're you're you're not as grounded like the person who's the most grounded is like the farmer who's just you know when you're doing this really abstract cognitive work day in and day out it's hard to stay balanced and um I I think that that that's one of the reasons why uh I I feel like there's a lot of work

that that I'm interested in doing with the Cosmos ecosystem because you know there's um it's it's hard to to do to do this work and so yeah so the first point was it's really unique the second one is it's really hard um and and just you know in the in in the short term you're not always going to be rewarded uh by the market for doing this sort of higher order work um so the third thing I guess I'd say is there's there's a sense I get in the cosmos ecosystem um and you know what I'm going to say actually it's Universal right now I'm going to use a cat metaphor because and will cats will

become relevant later in this conversation cats are pretty relevant now yeah um cats uh their their like strongest move they can make is when they're on their backs kicking with their hind legs and you know when when a cat's attacked that's what a cat does it gets on its back it kicks and I think that that that you know people can look at that and say oh if I want to be my strongest what I got to do is get on my back and kick yeah but that's adopting a defensive posture and that works when you are literally being attacked but when you're trying to be on the hunt when you're trying to build

things and get things done you have to be on your feet yeah and um I don't I don't think this is necessarily unique to Cosmos I think we're seeing this sort of like trend of you know sort of victim mentality across you know the broader culture but I think it's especially uh it's especially unproductive in this context of Cosmos because Cosmos is like a winner Cosmos has achieved the sort of highest level of of complex abstract thinking and then we get on our backs and it's like no act

like a winner this is kind of the message I want to give Cosmos is like recognize take the W you know you don't have to be like all these other people and organizations and whatever that that that feel victimized like Cosmos is actually the winner they haven't figured it out yet everyone else is late to the party they're going to get there so keep doing your thing be on your feet get on your feet um yeah anyway that's my pep talk that's my pep talk to the cosmos it's a pep talk everybody needs right now I just noticed your T-shirt says how much wor GNA get well that this is this is the a a t-shirt for this year um yeah very appropos shout out to to Reena and whoever else worked on that

yeah you know I I feel that because um you know uh like when we lost the fund a year ago our our go to market for the fund was very much like hey you know we invest in the cosmos ecosystem and modular and whatever but our thesis and kind of the Genesis of the vision for the fund was Cosmos and that had a lot to do with kind of my background and the ecosystems that I had invested in in the past and and you know my Affinity in the cosmos ecosystem and we raised on this thesis on on this vision and uh a lot of investors were you whether they or not they invest Ed were interested because they were not

exposed to the space so it might have been folks who were like in Bitcoin or in ethereum or in salana and saw that cosmos had all these Giga Brands and all these really smart people building building Cool Tech and also that the cosmos Vision was being adopted in other ecosystems like ethereum with the rooll of centric road map and so uh this was really appealing and people respected that over time though there's been a noticeable shift I think in people's perception of Cosmos and so people used to say oh you're a cosmos fund interesting and then now and the fact that we're a cosmos fund is sort of a meme I think like right but now people like oh you're a cosmos fun right so that I you know the the the the perception of us investing in Cosmos um

as real or not as that might be it is is um is kind of Shifting and so it's it's led us to also be a little bit defensive right and and and some admittedly like I'll I'll I'll respond by saying well me we don't only invest in Cosmos it's like we've made Investments of movement and we're like very bullish in that ecosystem we invested in infrastructure that works like sort of across the ecosystem but um there is that kind of like defensive position of and that that I've also noticed other projects now um adopting which is distancing themselves from Cosmos uh you know projects like like say for instance that started as a cosmos project and very kind of aligned with Cosmos and using the stack and and now have really disted M from that

branding or at least for quite a while actually you know be chain also and and so a lot of folks I think like use Cosmos Tech but want to distance C from you know like it's it's the mullet right so they want to they want they want to have the they want to have the mullet but they don't want to have the party in front right um or at least they don't want the party that Cosmo in front which is like lack of liquidity so I I I I think that resonates with with me and probably like with other people Al also yeah yeah and I mean I I'm not I want to be clear this isn't about like your branding strategy might not include Cosmos I think I it's more about the the the the posture that you take with regard to the work that you're doing um

you know this is really important work it's it's good work and if it's not being rewarded by the market right now that's not necessarily a signal that you're doing the wrong thing yeah um go anyway yeah yeah let let's talk about your cat cult right so um so my my experience I think I I I mentioned quickly at the beginning of the of the of our chat uh was that after that whole I made the post and it kind of went viral and whatever um I I I tried to so normally the the work that I do I work with organizations and you know they pay me by the hour or by the day and you know I I work as a practitioner um and

that culture doesn't exist I have probably in in broader web 3 like web 2 has a budget for leadership development Executive coaching like you know team building and that kind of thing and the the the companies you know we're talking about much smaller companies um in in in web 3 that don't necessarily have that sort of ability or even that that that that instinct to like well let's train our managers you know it's like we we have a a position we need to need to put someone in there to manage do it learn on the job like jump in the deep end kind of thing um and so I I was a little bit frustrated that I I couldn't get uh

any traction in terms and so if I if I care so much about this ecosystem really like the people um really feel like there's a lot of great work to be done how do I do that and and so um well my my you know my vision I guess for for for the cosmos is that if you're going to be the sort of like highest level of complex abstract thinking you also need to be best in class at communication you because that's where you're you're like think about it you're like way out in space you're super far apart now being able to communicate between these huge long distances and they could be

intellectual es or you want to think about it is is just super important and if you're using the sort of uh communication technology if you want to think of it that way that people are using when they're sitting around a table it's just it's not going to work um so what I what I thought like what's a fundamental thing that is already working in Cosmos is this idea of of sovereign interoperability and uh people want to be free but they also know they need to communicate and if we can just get uh an optin community of people who said hey

I'm in I want to communicate with other people I know I'm not always going to agree but I can see everyone's point of view and it's valuable to see other people's point of view for the collective intelligence you know the of the community then let's start with that let's start with the optin and the people who who don't want not opt in can you know choose not to opt in um and that's that gave this idea of this oath and the oath is you know I I uh if I have a problem or an issue conflict with anyone else who also taken this oath I will seek to find a win-win resolution with the help of the community if necessary and it's it's a seek like it's there's no guarantee whatever but I'll try and I thought okay so this is what

I'm going to do I'm going to try to put together this commity um but it's kind of like as You' heard it's like a long spiel to like get someone interested so I was thinking what's a short hand for this and this is where we get to cats um cats have this you know that cats are social animals uh and cats do this Lions do this which is when they want to signal to another cat they're not their I'm not I'm not here to fight you I'm not in Predator mode they do something called the slow blink where they close their eyes for maybe a second or two and it's like you show a little bit of vulnerability and you you say hey I'm I'm I'm just I'm chill I come in peace and I thought well that's it that's like

the slow blink that what what I'm trying to say is everyone we're out here we kind of like you know a little bit on edge you see someone looking at you like are they about to attack and you get in that defensive posture so we can all like sort of do the slow blink physically or just metaphorically then maybe we can get to the point where we can start having some more like better conversations some some some more uh giving the benefit of the doubt and and really recognizing that okay you might not agree with what I say but I can see where you're coming from maybe I can learn a little bit from it um so the the way it works is it's an nft that you meant when you take the

oath we worked with the team at asteroid who does inscriptions from the Hub so it's it's kind of like the the the cosmos or the web three equivalent of like swearing on a holy book you could you inscribe your name next to this next to this um uh this oath and you upload your profile picture and you put a little picture of a tat on it so you can on the Forum or on social media show that hey I'm a member of this group that's trying to like work on on on communication and for me you know it's if we can build this community of people who think that this is an important thing to do um that we have to do collectively you know that's what I'm

trying to do is is is and and we can see it here in in Cosmos but it's not just for Cosmos you know it's it's for it's for everyone like someday maybe the whole world can understand that and this is you know this is like the mythology of of the the the cult is that uh cats are giving us a gift they're like hey hey you know we're uh we need you humans to succeed if we want to have our lives of leisure you know so if you guys could chill out and learn to work together um then we're all going to be good so yeah that's it so slow blinks on asteroid you launched it yesterday slow blinks on asteroid first one the first one has

been minted and uh hope to get a lot of people in the community cool so people can mint their slow blink is it called FL BL yeah there's there's four different cats you can choose from um and uh depending on how much you want to uh be a part of the project and maybe I should add there's a meme coin associated with it two so uh every month for the next 19 years we'll do an airdrop exclusively to um uh holders of the nft why is it 19 a year because uh Thomas Jefferson said that no law or Constitution should bind a with people for longer than a generation and he

defined a generation as 19 years um and so now also sort of life of a cat cats are usually like it is exactly about the life of a cat too so here we go this is cat number one and after this cat lives out its life the world's going to be a completely different place but I think that the ethos of sovereign interoperability is one that will last the long long term doing God's work man thank you cathic thanks Sam [Music] [Music]