Hypercerts.org with Carl Cervone

Transcript

foreign [Music] ation on the Pod today we have Carl Carbone who is a startup operator at protocol Labs building out paper certs which is an open data layer for tracking and rewarding positive impact Carl was previously co-founder of invertis which is a web 2 startup for verifying coffee Supply chains and helping companies make better sustainability Investments and uh is a steward a Bitcoin he's passionate about giving communities the tools they need to fund the work that matters most to them and that is what this podcast did is about it's about funding the commons with hyperserts retroactive public goods funding quadratic funding

and in this episode we go deep on hyperserts which is a primitive for tracking impact and the ecosystem and movement that is being built around hyperserts so I'm really excited about the Primitive of hyperserts and I think that you should be too and I think you're going to enjoy this episode with Carl from hypers inserts enjoy coordination hair Dow is here to Route Around the middlemen in biomedical research for hair loss hairdow is an open source investment and operating organization using the coordination tools of ethereum to begin exploring the frontier of biomedical research that bureaucracy and middlemen have previously prevented did you know that 66 of men and 50 of women will experience hair loss in their lifetimes

hair Dow has already done some crazy cool science stuff like their first research study on the impact of synthetic T3 and T4 thyroid hormones on the human scalp and is also the second doubt ever to Mint an IP nft so if you want to explore the frontier of the decentralized science movement and maybe also You've Lost Your Hair along the way check out hairdow at hairdow.xyz what's up Carl Hey Kevin good to see you glad to have you here so let's dive down the rabbit hole what are hyper certs and why do they matter why are you excited about them yeah so hyperserts are basically a set of protocols for tracking and rewarding positive impact and big picture the goal is really to build a flourishing ecosystem of decentralized networks for funding

public goods and what we'd like to see is that these networks can replace many of our existing Grant edging bureaucracies which as in our inefficient opaque risk-averse and you know most importantly not very good at optimizing for for impact which is the thing that brings us here um so we hope that we can do that through hyperserts by creating a set of open protocols that allow people to create verify and fund different types of impact claims now eventually um we hope that you know through the use of hypercharts you can create you can create a number of liquid incentive aligned impact markets um and so that's basically like the promise of of hyperservice as a building block um at the most foundational level I know

you've had other speakers on um you know you've had Hoka you've had Evan you've had that talk a bit about ibrah shirts and how they work um but basically at the most foundational level um what we're trying to do is create the building blocks for for making an impact claim and so you can reduce that to essentially a set of people that are working on a specific project or scrip of work over a period of time um now once you have that it's very hard to know what kind of impact that group of people might produce in the long run what domain it might attack when that will occur but a hyper cert is effectively a way of capturing those basic initial Dimensions the starting points putting them on chain and then creating a set of property rights that come with funding

or contributing to that work so that's the core concept behind hypershirts when I explain these I call them carbon credits but on any impact Vector so as opposed to just tracking your carbon mitigation you can track how much open source you've funded how much Al AI alignment you funded how much you've done for public health and so nfts for tracking impact is kind of my reductionist way of of talking about them any pushback on that um I think that's a good summary one of the things that we've we've noticed though is that people tend to have a hard time understanding the difference between say a claim that impact and verification to that if that has actually occurred so you and I we could say we did this podcast but then it

takes other people saying this was an impactful podcast because I learned a b and c or I'd opened my eyes to something new and so part of what is ultimately going to give hypersports value in the world is people being able to verify and make different types of attestations about the impact that has come from that work and in most cases that work that impact is going to be in the future it's going to happen after the people decide to do the work and so we don't really want to constrain the any ways that people might talk about future impact and so one of the things that's kind of difficult to wrap your head around when you first interact with shirts is the idea that oftentimes the concept of what impact this work will create is

left pretty open-ended because again in many cases that impact is only going to be be measurable or observable in the future I love that and I think it's important to maintain our legitimacy to talk about evaluating that impact and thinking about that in an adversarial way doing the evaluations and having people attest to it allows you to track the forward uh positive ripples that come off of an impact and it almost feels like there's a symmetry you know we just did an episode on retroactive public goods funding with with Bobby from optimism there's like a symmetry between retroactive rewards of impact in forwards tracking of of impact there's almost kind of like a square peg square hole that that that creates a

symmetry in my mind and so in a world in which there's tens of billions of dollars of retroactive public goods funding reward which is by the way as of optimism round two where we're at uh having this primitive for tracking for it like the impact that happened just makes the jobs the job of the people who are doing the retroactive rewards easier in the few future so I see like a loop there I completely agree um it's kind of funny that you mentioned that because I have a I'm hopelessly bad with managing my browser tabs but I have the the latest results from optimism's pgf round kind of there as a tab which is permanently open and whenever I'm kind of meeting conviction that this space is real and it will actually want to fund public goods and put meaningful money towards it I just look at that Tab

and see all the stuff inside it so it's such a such a powerful example I mean I think ultimately um uh the future that that you want to see is one where you can fund impact before during an after it occurs and the reality is that right now most of the mechanisms that we have sort of for funding impact rely on a group of people making some prediction about what they think is going to lead to impact so traditional Grant making the way that works is that you'll have a domain that you care about people will come up with a set of Eligibility conditions for people that are working that area you do a request proposals they submit some Grant applications you pick the best

ones and then six months to a year after at the idea of wouldn't want to refund the work actually begins and coming out of that you don't actually know what has worked many things to pursued don't actually work out or have the desired impact and so even if we can just shift that from being 90 to 95 to that of how things are funded to 85 80 50 and opening up new ways of funding impact and trapping it I think that's a really important progress yeah totally um so I'll just direct The Listener to hyperserts.xyz um and there's a beautiful graph there that just shows that um you know right now a lot of these projects are being funded with grants

which uh have a a like constant reward as you have more impact and hyperserts are going to create this correlation between impact and reward for the funder that I think is like really important to uh just to the positive feedback loop where impact Dallas create more impact and then they get more rewards which they can invest into further impact or just like hiring great people pictures worth a thousand words so to the audience you got to go to hypersuits.xyz in order to see it yeah exactly I think that's the that's the real conundrum here is that it's very easy to look back over a period of time and say these are the

things that were most impactful you can look back at your life you can look back and people that you've organizations that you've been at and there tend to be certain moments or certain things which are extraordinarily impactful but it's very difficult to know when you're experiencing them or if you were to try and predict what they are um to accurately all those um and so just the concept of retrospective evaluation and retrospective funding is incredibly powerful so let's talk about traction what kind of Pilots have you all done where are you in the build out of this ecosystem yeah so we released the first set of protocols about a month ago um currently on girly test net in optimism and since then we've had a lot of people playing around with

hyperswords so I think as of today there's well over 400 400 hyper shirts have been created more than 6 000 unique owners of hyperserts uh the first kind of big application for hyper shirts was a collaboration with with Git coin um so for for listeners who might not be familiar Bitcoin just transitioned from having most of their grants data being run on a centralized platform the one which is purely Unchained and so through that we were able to permissionlessly get all of the information that is required to create a hypersearch from any get going Grant so basically any project that participated in the most recent Bitcoin Alpha round is able to create a high percent and

then they can distribute that I preserve to anyone who funded their projects using quadratic only on bitcoin so it was a first use case I'm trying to get some hyper shirts out there in the world and since then I think about 50 projects have already printed their hyper certs over 5000 people have claimed them and there's uh some pretty exciting things that are popping up every year now so that's just one example um and for anyone who uh is was a member of the altaround is looking to create claim their hyper certs there's a telegram channel that you can join where you can reach out if you need the instructions to convince and wide pressure so for the listeners who who don't know uh you're kind of a double agent I know that you did some work with at get coin and you're a Bitcoin Steward

as well as being uh working on hypersert so it's uh it's an example of the collaboration that I think happens when you have social interop between two projects two or more projects and then you do technological interrupt from there and then economic interop can come on top of that so I think you're uh a true uh plurality uh for someone who works with a plural mindset with in the web through ecosystem yeah that we um I think that was one of the things actually that really maybe think differently about how people were building in the space compared to say traditional ecosystems for having social impact or yeah funding public goods uh I think your ethos is really

um if someone is doing good work why don't we try and compose with that why don't we try and partner revealed on top of what they're doing as opposed to trying to reinvent it and so get going to South this tremendous Community around people that are trying to fund their shared needs um and so why not look for ways that you can add additional value to that community and hopefully that creates a feedback loop that allows people to get more value from hypershirts and to come up with new use cases for hyperserts yeah and the technology for tracking impact I think is very complementary to the technology for funding what matters funding impact so it's certainly complementary there yeah I mean that's actually one of the areas that I think we're most excited about is how you can go from not just creating claims about

impact and funding that impact um to having a decentralized incredibly neutral set of attestations or ways of signaling what things are most impactful ultimately what we want to see is some kind of a free sided marketplace where you have people create an impact people finding impact and then people verifying or signaling that that impact is real and third part is is the hardest piece but I'll say the one that's probably going to unlock the most value particularly for funders because then they can measure the impact that their funding has had um and ultimately look at the ROI of that funding yeah and I think that there's a lot of capital available I mean you know I'm putting on my Griff green hat here but Griff always talks

about how much money goes into funding public goods from local state and federal governments in the United States and then ngos non-profits stuff like that the numbers in the trillions and so the idea is that if we believe our our thesis that networks are going to disrupt hierarchies and that you can create impact more more better faster cheaper using networks instead of hierarchies less administrative overhead more connections to the ground um then then I think that there's a lot of capital that's going to be available the Target The Tam the target addressable market for this is quite large if if we think that we're going to be channeling some of those dollars into impact owls that are issuing hyperserts as opposed to ngos that have to have you

know maybe the CEO makes a million millions of dollars a salary and there's a ton of administrative overhead from having an office and um you know they've got a whole bloated Grant application and fundraising apparatus an impact dowel that's just making making or making dollars from having impact just feels like a more fundamentally not only internet native structure but just a better faster cheaper way of creating decentralized impacts so that that's where it fits in my brain but I'm curious if you have any reaction to that line of of thinking I certainly agree I think that if you just have as a rule of thumb that and they in the physical world roughly 20 percent of of an economy through taxes or through whatever

mechanism is going towards funding public goods we don't have that equivalent in the digital economy and increasingly as you know the digital world becomes more important or um very very difficult to disambiguate from the physical world um the concept of funding digital public goods is only going to become more important um and so it makes a lot of sense to build structures that are digitally native to support that kind of funding um and there's definitely inspiration that we can take from solutions that have been tried before for funding things like Bridges and Roads and schools but I think there's a lot of creativity that needs to be applied towards what are digitally native solutions to these types of funding

problems um and if you can create regenerative systems that basically build these flywheels of more impact more funding more people that then want to work on creating positive impact um all sorts of new things are doing possible it's very early days right now I know all of us are looking for good examples of whether Supply mules have um started to stand and started to create meaningful impact but I think that you know I I'm very optimistic that you're a few years from now um the spaces can be full of those types of examples and will basically feed us as a kind of a beacon that I hope will inspire people that have been trying to solve you know more traditional public goods problems

um to look to web3 to look at some solutions have been created here and try and apply this and they're empty introduce well the order of operations feels like web3 should fund its own public goods and then we can move on to All Digital public goods and then eventually into real world public goods but you know from studying the carbon credit markets they have an oracle problem where you know someone claims that they're not cutting down trees you have to verify it with satellite imagery it's it's faulty there's a bunch of problems with that in the carbon markets but it's also just feels like it's easier to when you're funding ethereum public goods you know we've got this cryptographic chain of proof for everything that ever happens in the ethereum ecosystem not everything but like the on-chain things and so it feels like we've way less of an oracle problem

to start with building evaluators and that's exciting to me because it just means that we can build some momentum and some heat around cryptographic public goods and then you know as as we build momentum there then you can start to swallow the elephant of non-cryptographic impact and and things of that nature so the order of operations feels right to me I agree well um yeah I mean if you're successful in the next Bull cycle I I would love for impact owls to be a narrative like up there with what nfts and D5 were in the last cycle you can imagine a hundred or a thousand impact dollars that are just minting hyper certs and our uh earning rewards for creating that impact and and um you know to me that's that's how the Degen and the regen stuff all

fits together so it's gonna place that idea out into the universe and we'll see what happens with it yeah I I agree I think that if we can create a world where people that are doing things that have a positive impact are able to create some kind of recurring revenue from that and have that be recognized um I think it opens up a lot of possibilities and a lot of people you know having spent some time working in crypto non-cryptility holds or things that are uh I guess if they adjacent in sense that people are trying to solve some of their problems but using different tools and Technologies to do it um I think a lot of people come in and have a certain amount of optimism for what kind of impact and change they're able to that they want to be

able to create in the world but then they get deceited by the process of trying to apply for Grants and trying to figure out how that's to Market their work to funders who might not understand it very well um so I'm I'm very hopeful that we can create a world where people who are really dead at creating impact can focus on doing that and they can be rewarded for that and then that sends a signal for more people to to work on this type of thing yeah I um well I'd love to talk about what's next so you all just have to get coin collaboration I know there's been a couple hackathons that have been built so what can people expect in the next couple of months with respect to hyperserts yeah so there have been some in addition to the work with Bitcoin

there have been some really exciting hackathons and Pilots that have come about so there's a few that happened at East Denver uh there's been some more recent uh work that abandon and Montenegro there's a couple different communities in DSi um and carbon markets that are playing around and trying to use hyperserts um for their own needs and as we're creating a set of protocols um that is the goal the goal is basically to create open source software that other people can build it and they can use um and what we're trying to do is Shepherd a initial set of core protocols that allow people to do that um so on the on the protocol side there are a number of things that we have on the web map uh the first one is actually

completing the initial set of smart contracts uh that will allow people to create and interact with hyperserts um so there's a white paper which explains in more detail than I'll do now what some of those additional functions and our ways of using hyperserts might consist of and so we want to complete that we want to build that so you have a rich hyperscript primitive that exists we want to then deploy that on more chains right now it's just working around cast net and optimism what we'd like to see hyperserts on any evm compatible chain um beyond that I think there's a couple other pretty big domains that we want to

explore the first one is just around onboarding contributors and so having verification of the people who are working on a given hyper search uh right now that information is not story on chain we're pretty interested in Solutions like Bitcoin passport rathers which allowing to verify that a person is uh who they say they are they have the credentials to link themselves to a project or to a hypersert beyond that I think the other big domain that we're we're very excited about is the idea of signaling what hypershirts have the most impact and so you can imagine in a role where there are many many thousands of hyperserts that have been created it's going to be important

to be able to curate and Signal which ones are doing what they said have the best impact are most valuable and so we'd like to create a a rich incredibly neutral layer of impact evaluations that allow people to point to hypersert and assert whether they think it has had impact and so that's really the next big area that one kind of filled on top of I'm wondering what you think the so when we get to some amount of minimum viable product minimum viable set of protocols what are the first niches that you think hyperserts can be super impactful in um you know I I guess I'm just curious where this will start to have the most

impact or or hit its Network effect first yeah it's a good question we go back and forth on this a lot because on the one hand you have the community aspect and so certain communities you're more eager to jump in and start building wiper certs when we want to harness that and then the other hand you have certain industries which are probably your domains which are probably better suited because more of the work is already happening in public and it's easier to verify digitally without having Oracle problem and so uh without being you know overly prescriptive I think that we're probably going to see more adoption in areas like open source software AI safety

ethereum infrastructure uh certainly any layer one or Layer Two that wants to fund its public goods uh there's a pretty straightforward way that they can start using Piper shirts to track what products are doing and who's funding what um as we're saying earlier I think the question is once you have a certain amount of Market saturation MD uh you know crypto public in space how do you extend that to to new domains a lot of my background you know before getting into this was in real world sustainability so tracking environmental economic and social work in the real world I think that there's a lot of potential there but I also think it's much more challenging than starting with things

where impact can be trapped and verified uh in a purely digital digitally native plant yeah it feels like there's an intersection of like who's interested in building on hyper certs now what are easiest to evaluate right now and then there's also what does the world need most right now and um I get incited about excited about the intersection of those things like feels like the world needs most right now you know obviously climate change is is a huge slow burning problem uh both literally and metaphorically and then but it feels like AI alignment is like the new coordination failure that we're uh you know we just this is the new shiny object that we've all they've all moved on to and so I can't wait to see this

get to a level of network effect where it can start having impact on the most existential challenges in the world I agree I think that there is obviously a lot of tension going to your AI and Alignment right now I think it's also a very good candidate for retrospective funding because no one can agree right now on what is playing to have the best impact on AI alignment or AI safety whatever you want to call it and so the idea of being able to create meaningful sums of money for people to work on this issue but then look back and say here with the teams you're here with the projects that have actually contributed the most impact and give out some kind of retro funding for that or great Grand Challenge Grand challenges prizes

I think that's an area where um there should be more funding and much more experimentation because right now I think the exact opposite of what you want would be a group of experts sitting down um a group of people from existing technology companies the big fives tech companies saying okay here's what we think should happen and say that agenda I think you want to have a lot of people working on this from from completely different approaches and being quite open to good Solutions coming from unlikely places yeah it's really it feels like there's multi levels to this I mean there's the creating of the profi the the protocols and then there's the tools that are going to make them easy to use and I'm imagining the jobs to be done for people

are I want to find who's ever had the most impact in this domain uh or I want to Mint and Hyper cert and I want people to know about it and so we see yeah the the protocols the technology to make them easy to use and then just the social awareness and the adoption of integrating them it feels like you're building out an ecosystem and and building a network for there so so it's a challenging undertaking but I think it it gets easier in web 3 when this is a whole like regen crypto movement as opposed to you all just beating the drum solo together I mean uh just look at the guest list for the green pill over the last 100 episodes it it's it's it's no longer just one or two crazy people beating that drum it's it's now hundreds

if not thousands of of people in projects that are that are doing it and so curious to see how it all the gestalta ball of it over the next couple years at the bulbs and I think hyper certs is is a core primitive for that movement yeah that's probably the way that that our team sees it as well um if you kind of imagine that there's all sorts of new coordination and money like us that are being created uh I think the way that I would describe hyperserts are that kind of boring very thin flat base panel you have in every kit and is necessary to build Constructors on top of um but no one gets excited about when they pull it out of the box and so uh I would like to see there have been all sorts of structures you built on top

of these and you recognize that you want to have a certain base layer which allows you to track what a product is who's doing the work who's funding it what kind of impact it's having over time that just becomes a necessary building block for any of these systems and no one really feels a need to try and reinvent that if the protocol is serving all these communities well yeah well I mean I think you're too humble you called them boring but the nfts themselves are actually really beautiful so you know I I think that like you know in the last cycle we saw people creating PF pfps and spending tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on top of pfps you know what would have to be true to

create a world where people want to flex their impact instead of their membership in board Abe yacht club or something like that and so uh the protocol itself might be a very uh boring and and you know a strong Foundation but I think that the sizzle of the art is is is something that's important for that emotive aspect of creating movement and uh I just want to give you credit where it's due it's it's not that boring looking if you go to hypersearch.org or hypersearch.xyz you'll see that yeah people are also able to create their own they can interact directly with smart contracts and come up with their own artwork do things on top of that um so I I know you and your team Kevin have worked on gratitude those look really beautiful as well there's a few other projects they're trying to create

their own um you know very different artwork on top of hyper shirts and as you said I think that one of the most important things that we can show to society is the public goods that we care about and what we value and so if there's a beautiful manifestation of that in the form of art or something else and I just love to see more of that yeah totally uh well maybe since you mentioned it I'll still give gratitude.io which is something that me and my team is super modular created as a way of generating a hyperserve that shows your gratitude for a co-worker and the work that they did uh really could be anyone that you have gratitude for but we're using it internally as super modular to track the uh impact that each of each other's work has had and um just

a very simple form for generating a hyper cert that you can send to a co-worker and um you know at hypersearch.org if you create a hybrid cert I think there's like 15 fields that you have to fill out and what we wanted to do was show a very simple like I can generate gratitude almost like sending a tweet you know without much thought and without much filling out a form and since it's incredibly neutral protocol we were able to create a different interface on top of it for that use case so as a example of the power of of of protocols there so give gratitude.io is is is that cool I'm curious as someone who worked in traditional impact before you got into web3 at what point do you think all this

stuff becomes legitimate enough that you can go back to your old co-workers and Pitch them in integration like web3 is not popular right now I don't think there's a ton of legitimacy around the work that we're doing in those circles like at what point do we hit that that inflection point in which it changes it's a good question I I often wanted that myself um we're definitely not close right now and I think that some of the shenanigans that happened over the past year probably push that even farther to the Future um I think that one thing that I've observed is that there is a pretty different mindset that people who have lived say outside the U.S or outside of Europe are places where you have a uh

where you're kind of grown up with a functioning democracy and banking system I think in parts of the world and for people that live in parts of the world where you cannot take those things for granted they're just much more openness and willingness to experiment and see the you know see the value of of where this Tech is um you know for me I feel that I was relative I was pretty early to grasp the significance and the importance but actually relatively late to jump in full time and and start building and so I think the more that we can create narratives which get people to spend their disbelief and start actually working with protocols engaging in endows using the tools I think we're

going to see much faster adoption so I hope that public goods things like refi can bring in that next wave of Builders to the space um I also think that we should have a lot of different bets that we're placing so more things it could be art it could be Finance it could be governance it could be things like how to line AI safety efforts I feel we want to have as many experiments going as possible But ultimately it is going to take a change in the narrative about what crypto is and there being real world use cases where people can say ah this actually solved my problem in a better way and once that happens I think people are going to have a hard time going back

even if you look at people that have been active in saying Bitcoin funding rounds for sale from Seasons I think the number of people that come in um and are probably quite new to ethereum and to uh say you know receiving receiving funding from people they don't know um they are they're kind of new when they come in but then I see very few of those people actually I think they come in and they start learning they realize there's a support network and it continues to grow and so I think the more we can extend Bridges to people that are curious and bring them in and let them share their ideas and experiences the more Rich the

space is going to be for sure it definitely feels like a rebuilding year and in Point ticket on on how we're not quite there yet but I wonder about the change of the narrative um you know as someone who grew I was born in the 80s and I remember in the 90s and in the 2000s when the internet went from like a fringe phenomenon to having taken over the world and early on it was like this curiosity of like what's this internet what's this information Super Highway uh that's actually I've heard in a long time the information super highway I feel like we're in the information Super Highway Narrative of web 3 right now where it's just like it's one thing and it's this monolithic and people are writing it off but um the internet is actually hundreds or thousands of different sub networks with what we call websites and

and no one judges the internet with one generalization because it's like it's many it's decentralized right there's many different websites and and I'm wondering when we get to like the high resolution this of that with web3 where it's like you know there's regen web 3 and I don't think people even know about regen web3 I think what people know about is Bitcoin and like FTX and and so how do we get to a high enough resolution where people say okay there's trash over here but there's there's good stuff going on over here and um that's the point in which I think we can reach an inflection point because I don't want to be put in a position of Defending FTX to the world or you know in a pitch for for impact funders and um but what I do want to focus on is is

the tools that you and I and the regen crypto are moving so um looking forward to to that point and um and you know I think that you provide cryptographic proof of impact and that's a pretty core primitive for to go back to the to the really anywhere you're gonna uphedge having that in that uh cryptographic proof of impact is a solid foundation of legitimacy in my opinion so um any reaction to all that yeah I have a lot of reactions so I'll try and condense them a little bit I think the first thing is probably that most people still see crypto as fintech or financial technology and it's not it's coordination technology it's it's a way for people to come and agree and have

consensus and have that be cryptographically provable um and so probably one of the biggest problems that crypto space is its Association but with currency um and all of the speculation and volatility has gone into cryptocurrencies as as an asset class um I think that if there had been a little bit more uh I guess you could say applications that were non-financial in the early days people might have a different opinion of what this was about and so I think it is our job to actually show that sure there is this incredibly powerful money Lego that you have but there's also very powerful governance psychos there's very powerful ways of

actually creating new connections that people might not have discovered on their own um there's the ability to create social networks there's ability to um kind of Trapped histories and build out uh you know the the proof of work that something uh the the the the impact story um behind something uh so these are these are use cases that are pretty underexplored right now and so I hope that we can get more people to work on those types of things and create applications that convince people convince people that I've probably not thought about it this much more than just being a financial application

um to being open-minded and and playing around and until we get there how else do you think that we should be be building a green pill movement or a regen crypto movement um you know like what would you like to see internally from the movement from from here on out I think the Greenville movement is a it's a pretty powerful mean and what I think you and others have been on this podcast have done great job on is trying to come up with a narrative uh that is approachable and successful more people and it's a narrative of being optimistic not the future about trying to regenerate the world um trying to give communities new tools for funding their shared needs so I think that's a very very positive

meaning and right now like it or not a lot of this is going to be fought based on the narrative and Who The credibility of the people that are presenting that narrative and so I think that uh I think that in order to build the rainfall movement you need to keep expanding the tent getting more people that have different backgrounds to come in bring no skills use the tools and and build things that serve their needs um I think onboarding is really important uh helping people that might be a little bit intimidated at first to start using the tools uh getting a little bit of ethereum lying around with that joining

it down seeing what it's like to vote one of the Dows that I I joined quite early on and has been really impactful and helping me understand the generally the non-financial use cases for crypto um is is dream Dao which is basically trying to get um yelling you know 16 to 19 year olds uh from all over the world to learn about web3 but they're learning about it by by governing by taking charge of work streams by being able to come up with their own proposals and see how the community responds to that and getting people to vote so there's basically no Financial activity of our problem doing some ground writing to fund the Dao but people are using these tools all over the world in order to govern an organization

and every season the leadership changes new people step up and they decide what they want to do next uh so for people that are looking uh to get involved or new to the space I think one of the best ways they can do that is by joining her now and trying to understand how work happens and I think for many people it's going to feel like a much more organic way of working it's much more natural way of showing up and participating in the comments that you care about yeah I I think so um I think dials are complicated right now but uh if we can simplify them or at least create a front door that that doesn't lose people in between the the front door and the and actually productively contributing

that feels like the challenge to me but uh their new way of organizing and a pretty exciting one at that I mean we have to step back and say this is only yeah an experiment it's what five six years old right and it takes a while to figure out how you know what are best practices or sets of best practices for different organizations before getting into into crypto a lot of my work was in East Africa organizing farmer cooperatives and many have said yeah poppers are very much like those they have the same issues hydrogrinth right incentives how do you have good governance how do you get the members that feel that they have belonging and are able to accomplish something greater than they could do individually and there's no easy answer many of you

say exactly and fail um but it's a series of experiments and when a really good ones rise out of that uh they could be exceptionally effective at greater value for their Community but you have to say that there's one down model or one lead print for building a doubt I definitely don't think that we're there yet and the same would be true for for Cooperative or any other type of organization you're trying to create in the real world well I'm wondering if there's anything I didn't ask uh that that you want to tell the audience the only thing that I'd add um and this is maybe a message to the to the normies and the people that might not be active in space right now I have a lot of friends from past lives and International Development sustainability climate change and education and these

are definitely deals that tend to attract the people who have a lot of optimism out of the gate and ideals for how they think the world should be what I've also seen is that in my experience after they spend a good amount of time in the field we're actually trying to build into spaces they can become deeply cynical about the rate of change the lack of impact reverse incentives how decisions are being made the lack of bottom-up participation basically you name it and as I've seen before I'd really love to see more than people settle here um take the green pill come to build things and so over the past couple years I've tried to think that's a lot of my own time and trying to onboard people and create materials that help people uh get their get their bearings and figure out how to

you know how to start engaging with ethereum and participating in the community so if that speaks to anyone who's listening feel free to reach out I'd love to connect and uh hopefully uh help onboard you to the space totally well um we'll have a link to your Twitter in the show notes and then also a link to hyperserts.xyz um and then a couple other resources from there so if you're listening and you want to get involved reach out uh to Carl on Twitter and then there's also a telegram group I think for hyper certs that uh that people can join from there and they can get involved from there um one last question that I'd love to ask before we break Carl is if in a world in which you're maximally successful in hyper asserts what does that look like take us 10 years into the

future to a hypersearch retroactive public goods funding the commons future so in a real world I'm actually successful I think I should have many of the same goals that you do which is to have more Capital working on public goods building for Canada Society um and specifically for hyper certs I would like to see communities using them in all sorts of ways ways that can't predict right now but basically it becomes a primitive for capturing what work is happening who's funding at what impact is happening and that extends well beyond just the crypto ecosystem um to the overall space of digital public goods and then ultimately uh you know blurring the lines between the

physical world and the and the uh the digital world I'm just very excited about the idea of taking communities that might be trying to solve a problem giving them some new tools and an effective coordination mechanism for working on that problem I think the more experience we have we see in that regard um the more not only going to break down some of these barriers I'm working the city really really exciting new use cases that the non-born lots of new people so I'm very excited about that and 10 years from now um I hope that we have lots of examples that we can point to of people that are getting funded or having impactful work in the world and that becomes a uh you

know just like going out and becoming a banker or consultant they can make a living doing that yeah totally I mean I think that that's you know you can you can just drop big numbers and say tens or hundreds of millions of dollars we'll be going through hyper certs in order to fund impact but uh building it down to that agentic level change of now people can pay their Mortgage and pay for their health care or their basic needs by working on the commons that's kind of where it Nets out for me that's the systemic Behavior Behavior change and what's it's what gets me really excited kind of like word will thanks for joining me on the green pill uh pod Carl and keep up the great work thanks Kevin good talking to you likewise peace and love

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