HYPE Stablecoins, TCG Meta, New DATcos | Livestream

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Nothing said on Xerox Research is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is forformational purposes only and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Pokio Ryan and our guests may hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed. >> Hey, good morning. Welcome back to another week, another episode of the Zerx Research podcast. Uh, I'm here with my co-host Bacio, Triple Bacio, River Bicacio, Salv Bacio, and we've also got Shondaanda Devens and Kunal Doshi from the research team.

How's everybody doing today? Lots of uh big exciting green candles, everyone going crazy in the Telegram chat. Curious how you guys are feeling. >> Go ahead. hype. I mean, I feel like the answer is pretty obvious, right? It's a hype alltime high day. We've been getting them a lot, but um yeah, doing good and uh expecting the uptrend to continue, especially on hype. >> Yeah, a lot of that goes getting announced as well, but I think on my radar now, it's it's mostly macro. So, last week we got the week unemployment report and the market actually went down. So it's finally like bad news is

bad news. So again all eyes on like the inflation reports coming out this week and yeah how that will basically affect the the rate cuts next week basically. So it's just macrodriven economy now >> and Bach. >> Yeah, generally just happy markets up. Um I mean everything is like I'm not going to LAR like I understand macro very well. So I've just like I doing quite well. Um soul is they just announced 1.65 65 bill in cash and cash like assets I think is the language that they use. Um,

which is a lot for an asset as small as soul. Um, and then yeah, I think that's it. Like market looks good. Like pump's good. Pump's another one. It's going up. I feel like that's kind of like a indicator of appetite into or at least like general health of um meme coins which is like Solana which is what's dominated majority of um the the the market share of mind the mind market share the narrative over the past few years like if Bitcoin's doing well soul's doing well EP's doing well hype's

doing well you can't really ask for much you like all of the base assets that people are interested in are going up um there's narratives for each and every one of them. Some more like it's replacing gold. Some more like we just paid 1.65 bill, but they're all doing relatively okay. So, all good. I am. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think that's pretty good take. It seems like we're in the you know, we did we had the Bitcoin DACO only for a while. It was strategy leading everything and then the ETH Datos came in and now a couple billion for some soul DACO. So, um there's been like some kind of like some mini liquidity cycles there, but uh yeah, a lot of a lot of

green candles kind of across the board right now, which is interesting. Not quite not quite a 2021 style alt season. That's definitely not the case, but uh the the assets that are doing well are are definitely outperforming. So, um there's things to be excited about there. Uh do want to do a couple quick shoutouts before we get into anything. As always, uh quick shout out to Katana, our sponsor for today's stream. Thank you guys. You'll hear more about them later. You don't have to show my face now, but we'll talk about more about Katana later. Um, some other things we have to talk about, D London, uh, it's next month. Uh, Picacho himself will be there. Uh, Shondaanda to come as well, right?

>> Shan Evans will be there >> potentially. We'll see. >> Potentially, >> potentially we'll see, but Shauna Evans will be there. I know Mark Arjun will be there. uh several folks from the research team and across BlockWorks and of course industry giants. So if you want to get your tickets to DS London next month in October in London uh you get 100 pounds off 0x100 is the code. Check out links in the descriptions or check out the dash London website. Uh and hopefully well Bach will see you there. Um outside of that block works we're hiring data analysts. Um so we're hiring research data analysts right now.

If you are into onchain data, you love digging into and getting into the weeds with SQL and figuring things out, um, check the link in the show notes or on our website at blockworks, uh, blockworks.co to find the link to that. We need more data people. The heart of the heart of Blockworks is data. So, if you're interested, you love all things onchain data, uh, give us a shout, reach out, and we'd love to hear from you. All right, let's get into it today. um talked a little bit about hype. Jakob's excited about or Shauna is excited about hype. Bach's excited about hype. Of course, we know he's been excited about hype for a long time. We're kind of we've we're in uh sort of like the Xerox Research hype season as he said uh this

weekend. Um big news all over CT in the timeline is stable coin proposals uh for Hyperlid. Um, I kind of want to let you run away with it, Shondaanda, but there's seem basically the gist of it from my POV, which I have basically zero info, is that um you've got a lot of competing, you got a lot of competing teams um looking to kind of launch like the uh the sort of like, you know, chosen stablecoin for hype um with different proposals like as far as, you know, offering revshare back to the token, doing other like incentives to kind of, you know, get votes to their side or bring the community over to them. Um I don't know. Can you can you give us the

the what's what like what's going on there and you know where are you leaning? Do you think there's a particular proposal or proposals that are maybe you know taking the the front run here? >> Yeah, I would love to. Uh do you maybe want to pull up the slides? I have some visuals to talk about. >> I will bring those. All right. Yeah. So, I think Danny already gave a pretty good overview there. Um, Hyperlquid just announced that they're going to allow multiple quote assets on Hypercore. So, before it was only USDC, but instead of the foundation launching a token themselves, USDHL, they decided to create a request

for proposal. any team that wants to build it that's capable uh has now the option to write about it on the discord and the governance form and then the validators are going to vote which um token will get the USDH ticker and I think before I wanted to kind of talk about the problem statement why I think this is so big and it really comes down to the opportunity cost of uh just holding so much USDC in hyperlquid that doesn't acrue any value back to hype uh you can see in the chart It's around 8% of USDC supply is in hyperlquid. So I think I checked today's like 5.5 bill.

If you take a treasury rate of like 4% that's more than 200 mil in annualized revenue that's being leaked and not going back into the ecosystem. And even more than that I just tweeted about this. If you look at the agreement between Circle and USDC and Coinbase, um, Coinbase actually gets 50% of the USDC interest. So, not only is Hyperlid leaking this in their own ecosystem, but actually this is flowing out to Circle and to Coinbase. Um, if anyone has any thoughts, feel free. If not, I'm just going to jump in and keep explaining.

>> Please continue. >> All right. Yeah. Next slide. Yeah. So I mean obviously this is a huge amount of idle USDC. Until now USDC is the only like quote asset that was uh able to be used. And also if you looked at like the test net on HIPP3 markets you could only choose USDC. You can't choose like a yield bearing uh stable coin if you wanted to. And this was in the works for a while. like on test net if you saw they had already announced USDT and USDZ that they were testing with to be able to trade. Um but now um few days ago the foundation announced that I think this is going to go to mainet. I presume it's going to be on the next uh network update but in

addition to that they had reserved the USDH ticker uh for stable coin deployers and now they're going to give that away to any team that uh kind of wins the vote which the validator is going to vote on. So I think there's like a bit of an importance nuance here that Hyperlid is not launching their own stable coin but what they are doing is they are giving away the right to use this ticker that has been like um held by them right and I uh wanted to highlight something else that we look at in the native market which we're going to get to because they're one of the teams with the proposal they have talked about that they've been working on this for a while right so I think teams knew that this was coming anyone that was

familiar with the hyperlquid and active on the test net knew that this is going to be a next step, but it's just interesting that this is the way that they decided to do it. >> Yeah, this was good. Um, I'm going to add a few pieces of thoughts here. First of all, this is Can we put the thing away? I like to see everybody all at once. Very good. Um, so they the Hyperlid team originally They didn't release this until now, but I I think you could buy other stable coin tickers over the past few months.

Like I'm pretty sure they sold um other like USD beginning tickers. Um the votes been kind of interesting. Like if you're on the Discord, which I don't know if Danny Kunal, I don't know if you guys are in and looking at like the Discords currently. >> Not as active as you guys. >> It's like quite intense. Um I think they they had a I mean the thing is that Max Fi is a friend of the pod.

Like officially he's a friend of the pod. I have him on. I like his thoughts. Um I like him as a person. I think he's very smart. Um, I don't think that he like got inside information. I just think he kind of approached it a bit too quickly and was probably pre-prepared. Um, and maybe saw something on the test net or on the scanner that other people did not see. Um, I like in terms of what I think about each of them, I think it's probably like Pax sauce versus native markets, right? there's no like in between. Um, if you want like enterprise plus

institutional and you want something that's very tried and tested, very risk averse, I feel like Pack Sauce is probably not a bad shout. Um, I know there's a few like regulatory issues on that side. like they have some New York license that you can't issue through technically if you if it hasn't been like also if if New York hasn't approved hyperlquid as well. It's like the NYSDF or something. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a lawyer. So like I encourage everybody to do their own research. Um but on the native market side, it's a lot more difficult to bootstrap a stable coin from the very Well, I guess both of them would have to, but I don't know. I like if I had to vote, I would probably vote native

markets. Um, just because I also don't know how important it is to have the USDH ticker. Like it's a good ticker definitely, but you cannot have the ticker and still launch a stable coin, right? Like it's it's not anointed. It's not like Hyperl is going to swap all of USDC into USDH the day that they bid the thing. It's just they're allowing you to buy this one ticker. Um, which looks cool, I guess, but I feel like they almost made a bigger deal out of it than it should be. Um, >> yeah, I agree. Just to add, I think, um, to your point, both the teams, Paxos and Native Market have um said they're going to continue building the product even if

they don't win the auction, right? So, you might have like a USDH whatever, but you're still able to compete and um there's nothing against your stable coin. >> Yeah. Um, one reason I kind of like native markets a bit more is because I feel like they will use all of the unique features that Hyperlit has like HIPP3 builder codes like very ingrained into the ecosystem. Um, I mean Max did the round for every single one of these projects, right? So he has the he knows everybody and he's like very active in the ecosystem.

Um, I don't know. Those are like my general thoughts. I don't know who people should vote for. It's actually quite tough. Like I love Max. I think he'll do a great job, but also I understand voting for Pax sauce to an extent. >> I mean, yeah, I think like interesting that basically all the projects have indicated they're going to give a revenue share of like 95%. I think that's Paxos to like 100%. I think like for me the important thing is what are they going to use that revenue for, right? I mean, if you put it into the assistance fund, like I was telling Bach about this 200 mil on a protocol that does like 1.5 mil annualized, it might be a drop in the bucket. He disagreed

with me on this, but um I feel like if you take that 200 mil, you take 50%, which I think that's one of the proposals, right? 50% goes to the assistance fund and 50% is used to build the ecosystem. That's a huge amount of like stable coin yield that you have to like build out HIP3 products, Hyper EVM products. So, I do think like that is a really interesting way and for me like my vote is definitely going to depend on each of the team's plans to use that um kind of treasury yield to grow the um ecosystem effectively. And then to box point, I think Max is like pretty well positioned to do that.

>> Yeah, it's it's also like I mean who Agora said they want to do 100% buybacks? That to me doesn't seem very smart as well. Like who who would do 100% buybacks? like you're either going to make a lot of money on mints and redemptions um like fees on mints and redemptions or you're never going to be incentivized to like actually further build out the project, right? Because you're not making any money off of it or like and you don't have any I I don't think they're going to launch equity for it.

It would just be like or like a token for it would just be like a weird thing, right, to launch to just give all revenues to this one thing. It seems like I mean given how all these proposals look, it seems like a lot of this is like um brand equity play where you get your name, you know, if you become anointed by Hyperlid, then you get your name in front of people and um maybe by proxy then uh you know, the community loves your brand as well. It's probably asking for a lot and probably wouldn't really materialize into anything else realistically, but uh it like I mean from the the details just reading the details that uh Shondaanda has here it's like Frack offered 100%

basically back to the community. Agora offering 100% revenue share. I mean Paxos 95%. It's seems like they're I mean once you have one crazy proposal like that then you're everyone else is kind of forced to do that and so then it just basically I think sort of devolves into this like marketing brand equity play in large >> part. I mean they also did that after one of the other ones did 95% buybacks. I think the only one that's not doing buybacks is native markets. I think they're only doing 50% buybacks based on their like substack. um >> says 50% to assistance fund and then 50% for partnerships.

>> Yeah. Which to me seems a bit more logical, right? Like especially if you're a new stable. Like people think that, like I said, people think that they're going to swap USDC into USDT, USDH day one, and it's not going to happen. Like they're going to need to go in there and do a lot of work. Um another reason why I don't know if Pax sauce is up for it, although you never know with these guys, right? Like they could hire an entire team. Um and then like really push for it. Um and I also they bought somebody out, right Sha? >> Yeah, they bought the the team behind looping like loop hype.

>> And that became Paxos Labs which is going to focus on building out the stable coin and some other products. >> Yeah, it's a tough one. This is like probably the funniest thing on that's also like the most intense and funniest thing. Governance is just so funny. Like it's always so funny because people are just commenting under it and it's like >> like I'm very invested in it and I don't get the vote. Something that I think is funny is um and we t you talked about it earlier, Shondaanda, you brought up the Circle Circle stable coin revenue, but it's like I don't know that there's even an incentive for Circle here. If their proposal would require them to give up,

you know, if they'd have to give 100% of the interest revenue back to like hype buybacks for the community, then it's kind of a null point. Anyway, >> um I did see that Jeremy Olair kind of he commented by tweeting and basically saying like >> don't believe the hype USDC will be a part of Hyperlquid and then it's just an old blog post saying that they're going to integrate you know CCTP for native USDC to Hyperlid and HyperVM. Um so they're not like fading the ecosystem in that respect but the commentary around like them missing out on some like yield here feels like just nonsense slop. Yeah.

>> I mean, would you rather earn 2% on what is it five billion or like Yeah. So, it doesn't matter to them. Um, another thing there is that this is like I don't know. Would you take the opposite of USDC if you could in any scenario? Like there's some companies I would take the opposite of in any scenario. Is Circle one of those for you? Like would you always take Tether over circle? Oh, is that that's what you mean?

I I feel like they're pretty interchangeable if I'm being honest. >> Yeah. Not sizewise though. Like >> if you were to buy the equity in one of them. >> Oh well, I would take I would take tether. But if you meant using the coin like on chain, then I think they are pretty interchangeable. I >> more teams will come in now. Like M0 I think will probably come in this before the Are you guys familiar with M0?

>> Yeah, I think they'll come in. It feels like a perfect natural fit for them. Sean, does say what you want to say? >> No, I was going to say I agree with Danny. Like these stable coins are becoming pretty interchangeable, right? If they're all compliant, if they're all backed by T bills. Um and you see that like none of these stable coins really have any bargaining power, right? I mean like 100% revenue is basically the requirement to even sit on the table and like take part in the discussions of like just getting a ticker on hyperlquid, right? And like even if you consider circle, they're also like backed into a wall, right? 100% of USDC on Coinbase, that interest goes to Coinbase. 50% of that is then split with the Coinbase again, right? So circular

lottery has like really thin margins. What can they do here? >> Yeah. Sorry. Finish up. Sean, are you done? >> No, I'm done. I'm done. Yeah. >> The thing is that everything is interchangeable, but it's also becoming not interchangeable as well because with if everything is genius compliant and if everything is perfectly licensed, you actually need to look at the back end, right? like who's holding who's custodying their tea bills, who's custodying their cash reserves, what what what's their banking relationship like and like for circle that's it was SVB and they had a huge thing if you guys as you guys remember like deep to 88 maybe 082 um and also the asset makeup's very

different as well like tether actually backs some of the stables with um Bitcoin right Bitcoin and gold. So like these types of things are going to become more and more relevant for us. Before you didn't care. It was like oh like these guys are uh doing an algo stable on Terra and these guys are doing an algo stable on Solana. Like there's no difference like oh one of them is using Soul, one of them is using whatever Luna. Um but now it's like it's going to get more nitty-gritty. like you're going to have to actually look into and it's kind of difficult to find some of the partners for these guys. Like in Trafy, you can very clearly look up and then see

reserves and see what everything's working. And we just had that proof of reserves thing last year. Do you guys remember when like everyone was like here's our proof of reserves and Binance, Chain Link, everybody like started publishing them? um that's just becoming normalized now and we don't have proper disclosures, proper um like documents sharing what percent is being held in what. Um, so it's going to become like it looks similar now, but I would imagine in three months, um, it'll be a lot more similar than what we than what the asset composition was like like two, three, four years ago. But we'll also think it's a lot more different because we're going to be saying, "Oh,

these guys hold an SVB. That's dog We can't be in that one, etc., etc." Sean, >> you just a good point on that before Sean that goes. Uh, yeah, I guess as of now, I think it's just really for the user point of view, is just what yield you get, right? So, a lot of these like web two companies or like PayPal ran a massive incentive campaign last year. So, I think before like users care about, okay, what are the backings and reserves? They're just going to care, okay, who's going to give me the best deal, which stable is the most composable in the ecosystem as well. And I think that's also like the key playbook for hyperlquid like okay do I have an incentive to use to hold USDH over USDC like that stable could then

potentially reach the the dominance USDC has on Hyperlid and I think yeah we're still a bit of time away before people like really care about the back end and backing. >> Yeah, I I agree and I think that that's like for better or for worse, right? Like in crypto you always have like this uh tail risk like anything can depict. So people just discount it right they're like okay which gives me the best yield and you just want to operate under the assumption that all stable coins are safe. Uh, but I do think like Genius is is helping this and I think um like Balky said the USDT is backed a little bit by gold and um Bitcoin Red, but I I think in the future it's they're going

to have to fully back that by treasuries or cash. >> Yeah, I think um probably big takeaway is that you know Hyperlid has been the you know 100% buyback, shove it into the token like community. like that's been the very strong kind of like voice and narrative there. So, it's not surprising to see a lot of these proposals just like appeal to the community via that same strategy with, you know, the stable coin yield revenue. So, I guess we'll see where it goes from here. Um, any other last thoughts on hype stables or are we good to move along?

>> Um, yeah, I would say if you're into hype, definitely like go into the Discord. Apparently, there's like the 10% airdrop is for anyone who posts in the garbage. [Laughter] >> If they do a Discord airdrop for hype in 2025 man they're going to be printing some new Discord millionaires. That would be absolutely wild. >> This is the most interesting governance stuff that's happened in a really long time, though. Sorry, I know we said we want to move on, but is very boring.

>> Danny, do you Danny, I know you don't look at governance forums ever. When was the last time you looked at governance forums? >> Um, probably when the Salana SIMD vote over um the yield reductions. Pretty similar thing actually. >> That makes sense. That was also very controversial. It's fun. Like before I feel like glass cycle I was looking at a lot more of them but >> they used to be more um they used to be more meaningful of a thing I guess. I think more conversa like more decisions and conversations happen >> like not on the forums anymore. Whereas in the p like last cycle, I think there was like a very governance forward part of the like of CT or part of like crypto

that really wanted that to be a thing. But I I think the outcome there is kind of inevitable like people just don't the average person is not going to spend all their time in governance forms. It's just the reality of what it is. >> So >> thankfully. >> Yeah. Thank thankfully. Although they they will still spend all their time online. But uh either way, uh before we move along to the next thing, I want to do a quick shout out to our sponsors for today's stream. Thank you to Katana. This episode is sponsored by Katana and their 1 billion CAT campaign is live. Katana is a DeFi first chain built for deep liquidity and real yield by redirecting chain revenue back to active DeFi users. Bridge and deposit directly into vaults in one simple click and start earning immediately on your Ether, Bitcoin, USDC, and more. Follow the link

in today's show notes to get started. As well as IGEN Cloud, uh, thank you to Igen Cloud. Is your treasury losing value to inflation? Learn how to make digital assets like ETH and Soul productive with uncorrelated protocol-driven staking rewards for CFOs, DATs, and corporate treasuries. The path to integrating liquid staking and reststaking should be riskmanaged and aligned with long-term strategic goals. The productive treasury report from liquid collective and INECloud outlines practical adoption and a forward-looking vision for the role of the modern treasury as a strategic enabler of new technology. read the productive treasury report today by following the link in today's show notes.

Let's get back to it. Um, outside of the hype stable coin stuff, another one of the big narratives that uh is kind of rolling over or not rolling over, but kind of continuing over, spilling over from maybe last week or even the week before that is like this TCG, RWA, like Pokemon cards, other cards on chain. Um, we've seen like a lot of platforms. I I feel like this is something we've been talking about, Boach, where a couple months ago I started seeing these like ripping packs um for Pokemon cards like onchain start popping up and then there were like three of them and then there were 10 of them and then and now there's like 20 of them and then you know then the cards the collector cry guys did an ICO and the coin is you know at 500

million FDV or wherever it's at now um after a massive runup. So, there's kind of been this little narrative brewing. Um, and up until recently, there haven't really been any tokens to like take a take a bet there on, at least not liquid. Um, cards is kind of that first big one, I would say. Um, but I guess Yeah, go ahead, Buck. >> They had Courtyard for a while. Do you remember Courtyard on Polygon? It's another one of those that just fumbled it. V2 is always better than V1, as I like to say. >> Did they have a coin though? >> I don't think so. No, >> I think that was kind of the big like at least from my Maybe they do have a coin.

>> Oh, no. They have an NFT. They have an NFT. So, that's different. >> Yeah. No, they don't have coins. But like I mean even the traction deal now, it's it's still pretty impressive. Like I mean they're doing much more volumes and revenue than any of these competitors in Salana. So I wouldn't be surprised if they run some points campaign and decide that hey, you know, now is the time to >> Yeah. I smart. You wanna you want to hop in right when the right when the stake the plate is hot like with IPOs like all the companies coming to the forefront now that uh there's liquidity that's aping in >> Yeah.

>> Were you gonna say something back or no? >> Yeah that question Sean that you're a zoomer I think as zoomer as you can get. Is this something you guys do? you like open packs packs cards. Were you into were you or people you know very into labus? >> No, but I guess it's a different crowd. I'm more into like FIFA packs if that counts. >> If they tokenize some FIFA points, I would definitely trade that. But >> so like gaming you'll do like gaming loot boxes.

>> Yeah. I mean FIFA is also like super addictive, right? And you have to reset it every year. I was talking about this in god 2023 for a gaming report and like how they need to start implementing these types of things. I think I was writing about parallel back then because they had the trading card game obviously um not as relevant. Um RIP my one of my bags long time bags was a big fan of them. Um but yeah like FIFA would be a huge one right like >> can you resell on FIFA? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, the thing is like FIFA used to have like a really good market system. That's actually where I started trading. I was like trading um FIFA points like selling my friends players

for like football shoes. Um but now they're like trying to control the market so much with the price ranges. Um it really takes the fun away. But to the point if you could like tokenize packs and like trade those players, it would add such an amazing element. Um but then again, I mean we're traders, right? So maybe like we're the 1% of people who find that interesting and the other people just want to play FIFA. >> No, no, but like foot trading has always been a thing, right? Like people you would transfer accounts, you can sell your are they called coins? Foot coins? I can't remember the name now. But you can like sell your coins by transferring them. And that's what you mean by the transfer value things, right? Because I could list like a bronze and you could buy it for 10k. Um but I assume you they

don't let you do that anymore. >> Yeah, exactly. Before you like list a bronze player for like 10 mil, other person would buy it. That's how you get the coins. But now they have like price ranges um where they basically like manipulating the market for their own sake. >> I imagine Pokemon probably also starts getting upset about this stuff, right? Like they don't really seem to me like a super IP kill company. I don't think they care or like I don't know that that they can like push back against secondary sales of the cards, but may maybe when it comes to like creating, you know, these different marketplaces. I I think Counterstrike is another big one, right? They have they have a massive like skins marketplace and that's like there are all these like third party websites where you can like take your transfer your skins like out

of your account into like a website to then trade, right? Um so that feels like another good one. But >> yeah, to answer your point, Bo, uh yeah, I did speak to the teams today and then I did ask them the IP question as well. There's not much issues here because technically it's the same as what eBay does, right? It's just a more efficient version of eBay. So there is no issue there. But if you were to build like let's say you build like a game using these tokenized cards, then you're starting to get like, you know, okay, it's a bit gray area. So as long as you keep it simple for now at least, it's it's fine.

Yeah, I um I think this is a pretty good like you know a lot of the things that Eve people were talking about or like I guess DeFi people were talking about two years ago ended up being true like stable coins are really a great way to transfer value from like cross borders. It's a great way to hold assets. Um so it's like the rest of crypto and you can borrow lend etc. It works. Um, I wonder if like the NFT promise is going to be fulfilled by these trading card games or whatever, like these gambling things because it's a very intrinsic human desire to collect, right? Like we were talking to Ryan Connor about this who my go bought Charizard cards somehow like he did

something for Charizard cards, right? Nostalgia. Um, I think he's like whatever he's I don't think he bought it online to be fair, like an NFD. But like people want to buy this kind of stuff and they want to gamble. You can see like Laboo went crazy. I think Target I wrote about this, but like Target made upwards of 600. No, PopMart made upwards of 700 mil in the first half of 2025 on Laboo's. Um, so like there's a lot of money floating around. I mean, beanie babies were a whole thing back in the day, although they don't have like lottery aspects. Um, so I imagine like this is actually quite an efficient way of doing it, unironically.

Um, I guess Canal, you had you grabbed some data on some of the trends here. Like is there is there just like a meaningful like Pokemon card trend that's happening and it's like spilling over into crypto or like what kind of where where your thoughts at from digging in? Yeah, like I mean happy to share uh like a lot of charts are going around of the performance of the asset class itself and like year to date like the the Pokemon card index is up like over 60% so it's pretty much outperform like all of the other asset classes and interestingly it's not just Pokemon cards right like if you look at the other sports cards they also have done pretty well so it's a phenomenon across

the TCG space and there are a couple of reasons for Like a lot of it is like I mean we grew up here collecting these cards and back then we didn't have a lot of money so we could only buy a few but you know as our incomes increased we then started we were able to buy these cards and that's how like they started becoming popular and then covid happened you got that whole steamy coming in and then you had the whole phenomenon like with the social aspect of opening these cards like live created like it was much more entertaining and you also had a lot of celebrities like shilling these cards. Uh a funny one was so basically the pope signed the a Pokemon card and that also grew pretty famous.

So you have like this kind of moments that encourage people to collect the cards and really hold it for speculative speculative value and it's not just uh like if you you would think that a lot of this is happening on uh like onchain and like like in in real life no one's really trading this but that's not true like like so I did some digging up on data. So if you like physically buy this you can do it through like Walmart or Target and this year Target expects to like do 1 billion in trading cards for revenue. Walmart. Walmart had a 200% spike in demand driven by these trading cards and like even on eBay. So eBay actually posted its best quarterly revenue recently and that was solely because of Pokemon card sales which had

like tripledigit growth in like consecutive quarters. So you're seeing this like phenomenon of collecting and like like speculating on the value of cards happening offchain itself. But there are a lot of inefficiencies, right? Like if you buy from Walmart, let's say I I get a card, but you know, I don't want it like to to resell it back. It's a pretty tedious process. So that's not efficient. And on eBay, the fees are very high. A lot has been talked about this. But yeah, so these platforms uh like collector grip, fidgetitals, they solve like key c key pain points and that's why you're seeing such a like a lot of speculation happen around it. And I mean current currently like cryp uh collector cryp is the only

like liquid way to get exposure to this market which is why the token price has done so well and yeah weekly volumes as well. So an interesting stat. So last week the total volumes traded on these platforms was 85% of that done on open C. So that's pretty impressive. So yeah like it's shows that you know you're right bo this is an actual use case for NFTs >> and I mean talking about tokenization right a lot of like thought is given like okay you know we should get stocks and bonds on chain but that's not really I mean talk to an average consumer which person goes like hey you know what I want to trade this stock on chain no one does that right but this could be an actual asset class that people are

excited about so I do see a lot of promise in it but of course like it it's still early days. It's still like, you know, it's not perfect, right? So, I mean, if you go to the next slide, Danny, sorry for that. Yeah, just to highlight this. So, like if you zoom out, you can see like a clear growth in revenues, but if you zoom into daily revenues, there's actually a lot of fluctuation. And what happens is there's a lot of days where you see a spike. And then you could the next day, you could see a lot of people selling their cards back to the the gacha system or the claw system. So you get like the the platform in itself incurs quite a bit of cost to buy these cards back. So you get a lot of

fluctuation and if you look at the last four days you see like fidgetitals has overtaken uh collector crypt in in revenues and that's because collector crypt just ran out of cards to put in the gacha system. They didn't expect so much demand and fidgetitals had a point system running. So basically, people were like, "Okay, if I can't buy it here, I might as well trade on fidgets cuz even if I'm not making money on the cards, I'm still having that potential upside for the airrop." So it's very tough to like differentiate yourself from competitors where all you need is someone to offer like a points campaign and that is very easy to to draw users from one platform to the other. So yeah, differentiation will be a key factor for

these protocols moving forward. Yeah, I don't know if you guys have any questions. Happy to answer them. >> I guess is this this mainly a Solana phenomena, right? Like Courtyard is big, but apart from that, there aren't that many things happening on other shapes. >> Yeah, there are a few like so I did a coms analysis. There's one on Abstract. Uh there's one on Ronin. So, a lot of them have like they try to differentiate them differently. So for Courtyard, what they have is in their gacha set, they have uh they have sports cards as sports cards as well. So that's the only one that has sports cards and their gacha mechanics. And that has been quite a quite a hit product for them, I would say, cuz there's a few times that have clicked in and the gachas for the sports

sections are actually sold out. So it shows that people are actually going in to, you know, to get that. And so I'm I'm sure the competitors will look to, you know, onboard sports cards as well. But that's the thing. It's it's not easy, right? So to these platforms have to actually physically source these cards from either collectors or eBay or uh like a few like you know institutions who professionally do this and it takes time to build those relationships. So if you're trying to go into a new vertical again you have to establish the the specific relationships there. So at least that gives caught the edge in the short term for the sports cards aspect.

And I think moving forward, the the platform that really wins will be the one that can source uh the the largest number of cards at the highest rarity possible and at the cheapest cost possible cuz that lets you stock the gacha machine and keep the fuel going cuz the moment your competitors die down, then you'll basically vamp away all the volumes. And yeah, that's that's the edge. And you know you can in the long run for these platforms to really be sustainable you got to build utility around these cards right because currently the margins are very thin. So let's say like even for the revenue itself it's currently like a 20% net revenue margin but if you include the cost needed to buy the cards itself like

because you have to source the the packs physically that drops down further to like 6%. So it's a very thin margin business. So moving forward, you got to add like other like you know utility around these tokens so that you can open up other revenue drivers and yeah I mean I talked to both the platforms today and both of them do recognize this but obviously in the short term your main aim is to get as much inventory as you can and once you get the users once you grow and have enough revenues you could you know further build and open up other new new sources basically What fees do they charge? Sorry, Danny. I >> You're good.

>> What fees do they charge on the like on average on the gacha machine versus on the sales from the selling? >> Yeah. So, the marketplace is like a 4% fee for a collector cry, but most of the volumes actually are coming from the gacha machine like you mentioned. So there, so the edge there is so for collector crypt, they're able to source a lot of these cards at like 80 to 85% of their market value. So they're entering itself at at a discount basically. And how they can source it is so if you if you buy in bulk or if you have like proper sniping tools in place or you can like a lot of collectors like you know instead of paying 13 to 14% fees to eBay having to handle all the

shipping I might as well sell it to someone who's giving me like the same around the same rates and it's you know handling the whole process for me. So that's how they can source these cards at at a cheaper price and then then collector cry can then list it and the the how it works is so it's like you know when people spend on the gacha let's say I spend $50 on the gacha and I I get a card I don't like it uh it's a $50 worth of card I sell it back for $45. So how the company earn it's that $5 margin right basically. So the the ideal case for the company would be I hold on to that $50 card because in that case they earn $50 minus $35 the cost of acquisition. In that case they're

getting $15. So yeah, that's how that's the ideal case of the higher margin scenario. >> Very cool. >> I guess they get a you get a ton of money if you can cycle the same card through a bunch of times, right? If you're buying it back. >> That's true. That's true. >> Right. So like the ideal I would have to imagine the ideal would be you pull like the rarest card but then like you already as the business you already bought you already paid for the value of that card whatever it was. So then if the consumer is then going to like sell it back to you for a 5% discount and then if 10 other people open it like you just get to clip you know x% value of that card every single time assuming they're just going to sell it back into the platform.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's true. >> The odds on the gotcha play out, right? Because you're, you know, you're rolling however many times to to hit that rare card. >> Yes. So, like it's also a tricky dynamic there where let's say I'm getting a rare card, like it's really valuable. The chances of me keeping it are also slightly higher. Like less people would recycle it back. And the the high it's a higher order of me recycling like a a weaker card in. So what could happen eventually the quantity of weaker cards gets higher which kind of skews your return on the gacha downwards which means less people roll. So it's like a multiple factors that kind of influence it.

That's interesting. I guess the biggest thing to me that I'm thinking of is like these are just more efficient like card shops. like that used to be such a big thing, you know, in the early 2000s to have like an actual physical card store to go into, but I mean your operating margins are reduced and also your like, you know, your your customer like potential TAM is much larger if you're just an online, you know, slot machine and like ordering business. You can sell to people all over the world versus like a local place in some small town. Um, which feels pretty meaningful. And obviously the the gamba aspect. um is a it's a pretty big unlock as well. I think not that card packs weren't already gambling mechanisms, right?

You're already >> you know buying packs like direct from the company and they're you know you're rolling what cards you get out of the pack, but this is like built on top of that. >> I mean the one part of it that you couldn't gamble which was like you selling it back and then getting your money back and then doing another pack. Instead you like insta sell it back and then put it in the machine, you know, the slot machine. Can you open packs on the thing? No. Yes. >> Wait, what do you mean like open like >> Yeah, some of them you you can open packs. >> Like stream it like how what do you mean?

>> Yeah. Can you like stream it? Because I feel like that's a big >> that's one of those things that older people don't understand. Like my father will see my like brother watching a video game or something. It's like why are you watching a video game? He just like playing it or like why would you like watch somebody open a sneaker? like sneaker openings were a big thing for some time. I'm sure they still are like opening up like a like a Pokemon card or something. Um, can you live stream on it or is it like is that irrelevant? And >> I think it might be different to what you're asking, but I know like RIP RIP.Fun fun is the one where they like they they like take a picture of every card and then they and then they like put them in the packs so that when you

open the thing on the website it's like it's like okay you got this card and and you see like the real physical thing but obviously that takes some time to do so I I think they kind of have like a they're limited in how many of those that they can have available >> and you got to trust >> Yeah. And you're still you're trusting them to do it. >> Yeah. You can also just create an online version of it, right? where it's like you just it like sends you the card and does like a virtual opening for you. >> That's kind of like what the classic NBA Top Shot was from from last cycle was you open you open packs and they like did the animation of like hey you got these 10 cards or whatever.

I guess the other thing is like I don't know how much of this is like um is like a cyclical trend because I feel like one of the things you commented on was you see like bigger like once this when Pokemon last time it became a bit of a phenomenon and then like big streamers kind of like Baka is mentioning where you know they buy the really expensive like you know the old first edition like Pokemon base set which are like tens of thousands of dollars to buy a box of those or whatever and then and they open it live on stream for like 100,000 viewers and like it's crazy. It's a crazy event and then maybe that compels more people to then like go out and look at cards and buy some. Um but at some point like you know there's not going to

be more people to clip you know 50k into a a sealed box of cards. >> Um >> and so like some of that hype kind of dies. But I do like your point that um I mean there's a ton of these there's a ton of card like brands to expand into. So, um, if the Pokemon hype dies, they can kind of expand into Yu-Gi-Oh and Magic the Gathering and Laboos and everything else. >> Do you guys know what these are? They're called Sunonny Angels. >> No, I've never seen this. >> They are They were like Laboo. They weren't as popular as Laboos, but they were somewhat popular. But it's just like another collectible, right? So, I feel like it's the same as like per where it's like there's always I mean

there's BTC E which you always want to trade like and those always have the highest volumes but there's also like flavors of the month. So, if you're operating one of these exchanges um you just want to list the flavor of the month or the flavor of the quarter. I don't know how I don't know the cyclicality of the new assets here, but um and then you can probably make and I assume there's like a baseline interest in Pokemon. Um baseball cards are apparently an American thing. I'm not sure. Um etc., etc. And then like you just supplement that with new flavor of the month. Sunonny Angels, Laboo, etc., etc.

>> Yeah, I guess to that point, Bo, but it's not easy, right? like the flavor of the month. If you want to change it means you have to acquire all that inventory which is a lot of money and with already thin margins that's not something you can afford and what that does also you end up with a lot of like now you own the inventory of the last collection which okay what do you do with it do you like dump it like you know do you it's tricky so it's not easy I think more of these platforms will choose to focus on one vertical and once they have decent margins decent flows of revenues then they'll start flowing to others Jacob, any final thoughts?

>> Close this out. >> Yeah, I mean for me it kind of extends beyond like this card collecting. It's not my thing, but I think it is really interesting to see like how well our system actually works already, right? if you like compared to the legacy systems. I think eBay um can also like charges 13% fees like okay you can already have it um have NFT stored in your wallet right you can already have like um proven randomness then you can take that NFT you could take a loan against it right all you need is like for a platform to accept that um asset as collateral right you could theoretically you could tokenize that you could like trade it on an AMM you could create like a HIPP3

market as long as you have oracle price for Um, you could create a prediction market about the resolution of the HIPP3 market that's based on the fractionalized NFD, right? I mean, there's like you we already have these building blocks and it's going to be like really really interesting to see how this plays out and it always is going to like start off with speculation, right? Like people have like the packs are not enough. We're going to need to like add a liquid token that we can pump like 20x that's going to get people interested. Yeah, HIPP3 markets have their own HLP pools, I think. So, you can also tokenize that and then borrow on that and then buy more spot Pokemon cards and then loop

those pendle YTP deposit into lending markets. Dude, it's actually kind of fantastic how much we can add. Like the thing is that um like the health of an economy is like or like the health of a banking system is like you you can create $1 but you can make that into infinite amount of dollars, right? It's the same in crypto. You can take $1, make it into infinite amount of dollars. It's very good. It works very well. James Kristoff's going to kill >> actually. Yeah, we can uh walk research can come up with a proposal for USDH market backed by um Pokemon cards.

I like this. I want to get long the, you know, rarest Charizard looped PT on Pendle Yield and just ride that into the sunset cuz that, you know, the the most the most valuable asset ever created. And when you build a stable coin market on top of it, it's it's undefeable. >> Were you a big Pokemon guy? >> No, I I was not. >> What were you, Yu-Gi-Oh? Uh, I feel like I had a little bit of everything like as a kid. Like kind of followed the trends, but was never like super into to any of them in particular. Probably Yu-Gi-Oh a little more than Pokemon though. But >> they were all like phases, you know what

I mean? >> Yeah. Right. I'm not still playing Yu-Gi-Oh. >> Yeah. I'm not I'm not still collecting Pokemon cards, right, guys? We're not talking about grip on the stream >> for any reason in particular, right? Um, before we get to a last quick segment, I got to do one last shout out our sponsors for today's stream. Uh, thank you Katana. Katana is a DeFi first chain built for deep liquidity and high yield. No empty emissions, just real yield and sequencer fees routed back to DeFi users. Incubated by Polygon Labs and GSR. Katana is launching with notable ecosystem primitives, assets and partners like Morpho Chain Link and more. Katana's 1 billion CAT campaign is live. Bridge and deposit directly into vaults in one simple click and start

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report today by following the link in today's show notes. Uh, I want to say thanks to Igon Cloud actually for setting me up to talk about Treasury codes. Um, just for one last quick little tidbit. Um, this seems to be maybe like one last little pump uh or like another round like we mentioned at the beginning for maybe Soul, but also like ENA is pumping off adapt. Uh, >> well, Eno also just released, did you see the mega native stable? Oh, did they just drop something while I brought this up? That's insane. I >> Dude, my producer tagged me in it. I >> predicted that.

>> Okay, so wait, so Mega E here, let me just let's pull it up. Mega Eth and Athena unveil USDM. Mega ETH. >> Oh, you hate me. Okay. Unveil USDM. Mega ETH the native stable coin whose yield will be used to subsidize gas cost to subsent and provide revenue for the chain which will be used to acquire assets. So very similar to a USDH >> what assets? Pokemon cards >> Pokemon PTS. Let's be real.

>> Yeah. This is Let's chat about this interesting. Um interesting partnership I guess Mega ETH I mean like expected to go live relatively soon here. Um I guess how meaningful do you think this is for like ENA relative to it for me? I think the most relevant thing for Ephina is Pendle and A and in addition to that the that code that they have. I think this is good news but not like

holy I need to long this right now news. It's more like oh this is interesting they're still doing work in the back end. Um it is cool and I like the idea that US that is working as a as a um white label stable coin provider. Well, this makes it seem like they're working as a white label stable coin provider. The only issue is I feel like the USD name is pretty like strong. So, I don't know why you would want to instead rebrand as USDM. Like part of the reason why USDC doesn't have to bid for USD is because USDC the name is very popular. And I would say USD is maybe not as popular, but still a very popular name. Um, on the other hand, this is

probably really good for like stable coin farmers, Pendle bulls, or like people who love Pendle. Um, a people because it's like clearly going the thing is the good thing about Ephina is that it's like one of those things that brings in like secondary and tertiary products, right? Like there needs to where exists, there will always be Pendle because 80% of Pendle is Ephina. So Pendle is going to launch on um Mega E which is great for TVL but also great for other like points programs because Pendle can tokenize points. Um so that's probably very exciting. I think it's slightly more bullish Mega E than it is um Aina because I don't know if Aphina

launches on every chain like they don't just go on any chain. They're just like they need to have a reason to go on it. Um, and I guess this is the reason for them is USDM and it brings in quite a bit of TVL potential um, and like good I would say uh, secondary durary products. >> Yeah, I'll just I'll add one note here. They say they're using USD USDTB the >> the stable coin or the TBell product underneath rather than USD. So I guess it >> completely ignore everything I said. No, I'm just saying. So, it makes sense that it's not anything in reference to USDE.

Uh, >> and maybe better to just pick their own. >> I don't know. USDTB is kind of a mouthful. So, maybe branding it mega style is is a good idea and just have it USDM. >> Yeah. >> But yeah, it feels meaningfully interesting for for Mega ETH at least. Wait, I'm curious like I mean if it's just tial yield, why not just build something out yourself or like Yeah. Why why partner the Dina here? >> Well, it's like it's a lot of extra engineering work, right, to and like a lot of extra legal work that you have to go through because you need to get it issued somewhere and then it needs to fit into like jurisdictions and regulations everywhere needs to work.

You need custodians. you need banking relationships versus like if you know I don't know how they're gonna do it revenue share flat fee whatever their agreement is um it's just I would say probably a lot easier for them also if existing distribution right like they can they already have very strong relationships with Pendle so maybe they'll still Pendle will still come even if it's only for like a 4% yield product and not for a 12% yield product. Did you guys lose me there for a sec or >> that's it? That's >> I mean like to me it I mean there are two things right like firstly it makes sense like I think we see the trend L1's

L2s transaction revenue is just not a good way to monetize. You're going to have to keep lowering the fees. Applications that generate their own fees are going to want to like keep those fees to themselves. So you do need to like find different ways to get revenue. I think that's the approach here, right? Like your USDC stable coin yield flows back to you. So then my second take is like it's just again bearish um for circle, right? Like these stable coin issuers have like so little leverage now to like retain their yield and it's obvious that like applications the L1's want a cut of that yield themselves.

One additional thing I wanted to say is it's pretty cool that they're going to subsidize gas costs with this. Um I feel like it's kind of an unexplored or I guess underexplored thing is like I don't know if they're using this. I don't know if it's live on Mega E. Um like the Pay Master thing. I think it came with 4337 4337. Um ZK Sync has it and did their airdrop with using it. um by like sponsoring gas costs. I assume they're going to do something similar. It's interesting. Um you want as low fees as possible and if you can cover that. The thing is I don't know if like would you prefer getting extra yield or would you prefer having to pay no transactions?

I guess it depends from um sort of like a capabilities perspective like if this means you can if transactions are free and then you can kind of take that out of the like TX building and like maybe like complex transaction execution capabilities. Maybe that lets you do like more interesting things. But on the flip side, like if the if the like it's mega ETH and they're running a really big fat beefy fast sequencers and with the expectation of low fees in the first place, like if they were already already going to be subsent, um I don't know how much that really matters to the end user if it was b if they were basically already free to

begin with, but probably the more meaningful thing is that they're if they'll use some of that revenue to um further promote other other things within the ecosystem. similar to like some of the proposals for on the hyperlquid side. But I don't know, that's a toss up like for incentivizing early users like maybe you do want that yield to be given back because it but then again like we see so many cases where mercenary capital hops onto an ecosystem and they you know they they they juice that for a while and then they give up when the next best thing comes along. So maybe it's not even worth doing that anymore.

Hard to say. I'm I'm wondering if this means Athena is going to make their own proposal for USDH. Does that mean the product seems pretty similar, right? Like USDM 100% um fees back to the ecosystem. Maybe maybe they had to make this announcement. They had to like release it early so they could um make their proposal >> potentially. H I guess the upside for them like as a smaller and maybe that is one of the hidden upsides for some of these smaller um stable coin teams in these proposals is just like expanding the overall liquidity base and like market for their for their stable coin like circle doesn't it's not going to be that

impactful given their size already but um you know USDTB like if you wanted to meaningfully grow that you know sure give away the yield to these communities, but like build out the overall liquidity and the amount of players that are transacting in. It could be meaningful to just grow its size if you want it to like eventually be this institutionally adopted, you know, stable coin currency. I don't have any other big thoughts unless you guys do. Um, the only other big thing I was going to say on that the Datco side, uh, this this mega e thing was unexpected, but the world worldcoin also has seen a pretty massive pump off

of, uh, Datco news there. Um, I don't know. It just seems like we're we're going we're going down the line and, um, now some of these altcoins are getting absolutely massive pops off of like very outsized, you know, raise announcements relative to like the cir circulating supply of the coins. Um, which makes sense. I mean, if you're going to shove a silly amount, you know, nine figures plus into a coin that is maybe only, you know, a billion dollar circulating, uh, it you're going to move the market up, plain and simple.

>> I I don't think we've gotten silly enough yet, if that makes sense. Like, I don't think ENA and World Coin and you're like, "Oh my god, this is getting really really intense. We can't have DACA anymore." Um, I think we can go down a couple more levels like Camino.co and I'm like, you know what? Like, yeah, we're getting a little risky. And then if you see something like FTT or Luna.co and you're like, guys, we're out, you know? >> Yeah. Pumping a dead coin, that would probably have to be I don't know if you can go much lower, taking something back, taking something out of the grave with a with a D code. That's >> like That makes the most sense though, right? because then you get two

benefits. So you're pumping cuz right now that cuz you're pumping one asset and that's the equity and you're taking it from $1 to whatever $300. But with FTT it's very simple. You can take two things from one to 300 or whatever FT market. Um I will not be the chairman for an FT.co but I will also not not be the chairman for an FT.CO if that. >> Yeah. So so already accumulating. He has 1% of supply. Yeah, I mean the move here you you pick something that's like 10 mil market cap or less and you and you send it to the moon. But uh yeah, I mean all of it just becomes more and more like a engineering your exit liquidity for a trade. Um and anybody who's late

to that gets rinsed, so that's kind of tough to contend with. >> Yeah. >> Wait, to to add on your point on like crazy dad codes, wasn't there one on anime? That's like that's pretty crazy. I didn't see. >> I think it's a small one. It's 2.5 mil game square added. Yeah, but still anime coin. Come on. That's >> kind of getting a little 2.5 mil is quite a little bit of money. >> Want Yeah. >> You know, I want like a 100. If they're doing like 200, 300 mil into anime, then I'm like, you know what, guys?

Over here. >> Yeah. Just like 5x the circulating market cap. >> That's when we're getting silly, you or like when it literally stops making any sense. Um I don't know. Crypto's in this really weird spot where it's like like Putin this morning was like, "Oh, we noticed that the US is pushing stable coin dominance. Uh the United States dollars dominance for stable coins." And then we're like, "Oh, anime that code is actually not that crazy." Like there's like two things like on the one side it's getting very very serious. It's being used by nation states to further economic interests. It's like clearly very large companies like Stripe are

building meaningfully not like last cycle where it's like Polygon and Starbucks partnered and it's like a little sticker. Um and on the other side we're still getting really financially engineering um and getting really silly but let's see. Signs of froth are indistinguishable from signs of adoption, you know. >> Yeah. >> They always say that the Reddit NFTts and uh the Pokemon cards are going to rip while governments adopt stable coins. I guess there's no way around it. >> There's no way around.

>> And you're going to buy your Charizard PTS and we're going to launch the anointed stable coin of Hyperlquid on the back of Pokemon Yield. >> Yep. >> Awesome. Uh we can close it out there, gentlemen. Thank you all for joining today. Uh appreciate all you listeners for hopping in. Boach if you want to do any shills for the newsletter. >> Yes. Um everybody listen we are we have taken back Xerox research newsletter. Um research analysts write the newsletter every day. So we post our actual market thoughts. Make sure to subscribe QR code bottom right. Um you can also just search ZeroX Research newsletter and it will come up. Um, yeah. I mean,

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