How Should We Value Hyperliquid?

Transcript

I think builder codes in its truest, the most raw, insane kind of form will effectively put that to bed and make it look like kids selling lemonade outside because there is literally no product on planet earth, like not even Shopify is this simple. Not even Amazon is this simple. There's no product on planet Earth right now that literally hands you $4 billion of liquidity, says, "Hey we're not going to charge you [ __ ] for this." And then you can go and make money on it. You could charge up to 0.1% on the notional value of a per trade and you could charge up to 1% on a spot trade. There's literally not anything on the planet that does that at scale or even like on a micro level of this. So yeah, builder codes alone should make Hyperlid worth, you know, several other L1s combined. Builder codes alone in

their truest form. What's up, guys? Just wanted to give a quick shout out to today's sponsor, Apptos. We'll hear more about how Bitcoin DeFi and Apptos is heating up later today. But for now let's get into the episode. What's up guys? This is Bokio, the bad host and the better host, Danny. Uh, today we have a very, very important announcement for you. We are hosting Permissionless in Brooklyn. Um, what dates? It's going to be in June, June 24th through the 26th. Very good. Um, you can use code 0x10 to buy your tickets. Uh, we're going to do lots and lots of stuff. um dinners, games, you'll get to meet the whole crew, the OX research crew hopefully a bunch of the Block Works research and other Blockworks crew and

uh maybe a dunk tank. We're going to have fun. Uh whatever we can smooch off of Yano and Meo, we're going to do it. So, if you are a Zerx Research listener, make sure to use code 0x10 to buy your tickets. Danny, any parting words? And we'll see you there. Nothing said on Xerox Research is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is forformational purposes only and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Pocachio Ryan and our guests may hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed. What's up, guys?

Welcome back to another episode of Xerx Research. Today we have a packed podcast. I'm joined by Tolks, Monk, Max, and Omnia. I think everybody here has introduced themselves except for you, Sunonny. Um do you want to give a short introduction of what you do, who you are, and then we can we can get started? Sure. My name is uh Sunonny, otherwise known as Monk on Twitter. I am an enterprise research analyst at Msari. Nice to be bridging the gap here between Blockworks and Msari. This is a this is a good uh this is a good breaking the bread moment.

Um but yeah, been writing about Hyperlid since I think last summer, so almost like a year ago now. Um I've dropped like three reports on Hyperlquid. one quick report on uh on unit and probably best known for the valuation report that I did um saying that hyperl should be worth like 12 to 30 billion when it was trading at like I don't know a dollar on AO. So um there we go. Very good. Very good flex and dunk on everybody who didn't buy that at that time as well. Um yeah, Hyperlquid ends up bridging gaps and allows us to be friends. Um this pod is to the listener uh will mostly be

about hyper I think all will be about hyperlquid. Um I'm that's the reason that we collected the brightest minds and Tulks and me um to talk about it before we I think the first way the first I I really don't know how to bridge into this because I never really do like specific topic pods with analysts but I think maybe the best way to start is Max Omnia Tolks last time we chatted um we mentioned that we had a few fears about Hyperlid like what our bare cases was and what our bull case was um Omnia, one thing you mentioned was stable coins. Um no, sorry, Max, one thing you mentioned was stable coins.

Omnia, you mentioned some stuff about Hyper EVM talks. I can't remember what you and I said, brother. I'm sorry. Um but in general to the to the group of three apart from me, has anything happened um or not happened? Like do you think you were proven correct or not? Um, how do you think like the past 3 four months has been for Hyperlquid since we did the pod? I suppose I'll kick off with EVM related stuff. Uh, people called Hyper EVM a failure when it went live. And I think this is a pretty [ __ ] take honestly and and uh probably spicy, but I really don't care. I think it actually is uh

very very much [ __ ] because of the fact that you know the hyperlquid team did explicitly say that this is an alpha or beta of hypervm. It is the first time that an EVM is being essentially wedged uh next to an exchange especially such a performant one that handles an insane amount of volume. I think people very much uh misunderstood the magnitude of what was done and Jeff put it really well when saying that a literal jet engine was changed in mid-flight. I think it is literally the equivalent of that onchain. Uh and essentially this happened with minimal if not zero downtime. And the other day I put

something out which is pretty funny. Um you know teams especially at the ecosystem level like to invest a lot of time, energy and obviously money general resources, logos and whatever uh into giving some sort of upgrade to a network or some sort of like whatever catalyst they're creating for the network that will be a turning point. They like to give it like all these cool code names and stuff like that. Like it's some worldchanging operation. And then Hyperlid literally just announces on Discord, hey guys, network upgrade at such and such time on this day. Expect five minutes of downtime. Sorry if this inconveniences you. I mean like these guys just operate at such a different capacity that people are just not used

to. And I think this reflects at every single level by the way. It's like it's just at a social level. It's just extremely weird. So people don't know how to price this uh because of that. And then obviously at the asset level which we'll talk on I'm sure later on in the pod but yeah I think just touching on the EVM point I think like one of the risks that I highlighted was the fact that uh EVM wouldn't get adoption like a as a general risk right like something people see um as like a risk and something I just wanted to be fair about myself as a builder on EVM like as a risk to myself and like you know the protocol that our team is developing it's like one risk is that it didn't it wouldn't get traction did I believe that no but the point being it's a risk can

of course can't be naive. Um, and I think that have that risk is very much proven wrong. The EVM has gotten a [ __ ] ton of traction and I did not expect Solana Trenchers to pop over anytime you know, as quickly as they did and they have, which has been really interesting and not something I I factored in in the short term. So anyway, I'll stop there. But yeah, I hope that covers my part. Um, on my end, I I would say my biggest fear back in January was around, you know, whether Hyperlid would just be allowed to compete on even terms uh with the rest of the industry. I I think that's proven out and I've been, you know, pleasantly surprised with how um you know, crypto policy has been

developing under the new Trump admin in particular. I think you know we've seen kind of uh representatives from all parts of the industry kind of contribute to some of these bills that are moving forward and some of the you know um discussions being had. Uh so I I I personally you know view that risk as being smaller as it may have been back in January. Um and I would also just echo you know Omnia in that I I think the expectations around the EVM uh at that time were you know quite nebulous and it was deployed for the first time back in February I think around like a month after we did that podcast episode and it

was a slow burn but today we're sitting at I I think 1.6 6 billion in in TVL looking at DeFi llama and that level of liquidity coming to uh the system has has been a significant boon in my opinion. So between those two you know fears I would say we navigated it quite well. No completely agreed. I um when I wrote about hyperlquid like a month back um Sunny I've also written free reports. I don't want to be that guy, but just FYI, I one of the things that I wrote was that to me it it kind of made sense that Hyper the Hyper EVM would always

kind of be a sidecart be because the the core hyper core is just so it makes sense for that to continue as the main product especially since it makes a lot of money and it's a very very good product. Um, and I always thought that hyper core would mainly be used for lending, margin, LSDs um, collateral, etc. Like on that slow defi, let's say, um, but when I checked the data, it was actually a lot of, um swapping. Um, AMM usage is quite high. I think at that time it was hypers swap.

I'm not sure what it is now. Um, like the leader, it was also drip trade. So NFTs were also quite popular. So I was pleasantly shocked. And since then um this isn't data on high the hypervm is kind of tough. We have some built out but from what I have seen anecdotally typically over the past let's say year if I'm in a group chat most people will be talking about Solana tokens. Um there's been I would say a shift over the past two months where it's still Salana dominated and then I think like if you're not in your hyperlquid chats you'll see that in the general chats most of the time people are still talking about Salana trenches um like

those Japanese soldiers that never left the island. Um, but it's like 10% 20% now are like chilling hyper liquid hyper EBM tokens which I think is a pretty meaningful meaningful shift especially for something that's relatively new doesn't have the top specs. Um, I think they just got like the small block times to 1 second Omnia. Correct me if I'm wrong because I know you post Yeah literally 40 48 hours ago or something. Yeah, it's not like the most performant chain, but like you mentioned, they've also been very explicit in that this isn't meant to be the most performant chain initially. Like, it's just something that they're building out on the side. Um, Omni, actually, one thing you mentioned was that they're not great

at comms. Well, you didn't say this. I'm saying this, so, but I'm saying that they're not great at comms. um in that they'll just launch an update um upgrade like a network upgrade for five minutes and then they'll like cut block times by half. Um I'm like you don't really see a lot of road map from their end or like a lot of this is our like final goal. On the one end, that's kind of daunting, but on the other end, it's like you kind of trust that they're going to be working towards this as opposed to going out with this massive road map and saying "Yeah, we're going to like get into this." And then they never really do anything about it over the next three months. So, and they also take feedback.

Well, that's kind of the crazy part is like it's refreshing that they don't talk [ __ ] before it's actually done which is great. But the thing is they actually also take feedback because that that is like maybe a risk to add on to like what was uh what we discussed a few months back now it's like oh like you know they don't talk yeah sure but like do they take feedback and the reality is they do they take feedback from the discord channel they take feedback from people on telegram who want to list a certain coin or like trade something like they actually take way more feedback than people would realize but anyway just thought that was a cool caveat. No no it's a good point.

Um, one more thing I'm going to talk cut me off. No, I mean I think uh I think our pod was it like 6 months ago now was it a lot of that stuff remains true. I think one of the biggest things for me um again we were trying to like hypothesize about bear cases without like actually wanting to you know be a bear. Um, but I think for me it was just like the points program. Um, we've we've we've just seen this the the perpex angle. We've seen it done a thousand times in crypto and somebody was eventually going to get it right and to the point where it doesn't matter

anymore about what anybody else does. And Hyperl has definitely done that and like you can put that argument to bed now. Um but I think that, you know, you look at the the DEX to sex, the futures trade volume, you look at, you know, the per pro protocol, uh, the market share stuff that the block has. Um, they have good data on that. Um, but yeah, that was that was the main concern for me. I remember saying that like before we logged off the last pod and it was just like look we've seen per protocols have you know this kind of angle happened before and there are protocols that would

have like dominant market share for you know a month two months three months while their points program was going on and we've seen that hyperlquid again we talked about it six months ago like this is different from every other pro protocol and we've seen that played out. Um, so yeah, I think you can put that that argument to bed and you know, we'll talk about the the hyper EVM and and what that brings to the hype. Um, but the main downside I think to me was what is the potential for another deck to launch a points program? And honestly, like you see it nowadays with I'm sure everybody's familiar with lighter now and like people talk about

that and um it's it's really generally just because they want the hype airdrop that that occurred. They want that to happen again. Um but since then like everything has just been I mean hype has been the execution everything about the the chain the token like the buybacks everything is just it's it's amazing. So yeah, um yeah, I think we can we can put that a lot of the bare arguments that we were kind of, you know, forced into and talking about 6 months ago. Like I think you can put pretty much all of those to bed. Bitcoin defi is heating up on Apdos. With nearly 400 million BTC assets on chain, APOS users can now earn yield on their Bitcoin via EcoABTC and

OKXXBTC without the typical bridge risks and high fees. To explore BTC yield opportunities on APOS, follow the link in today's show notes. As always investments in blockchain technology involve risk. Terms and conditions apply. Do your own research. I just pulled up the chart. People didn't see it. Um but sex toex ratio is now at 25%. Um I'm actually curious what you guys think is so one of the things is that they've clearly been taking a lot of volume away from sexes. Um, it almost feels kind of stupid for it to be compared to other dexes at this point because it's like I think it's at 90% now for the relevant dexes. Um, overall it's like 80 85%. Um, yeah, Sunny, maybe this one you

can speak a bit about like how do you think about competition in that space? Are you comparing it now to sexes? Um or are you still like this is just the per landscape is just going to keep growing and growing? How do you think about the hyper core going forward in terms of growth? Yeah, I I think um I posted a thread like long form tweet recently about this. Uh I actually do think this is a reasonable fundamental bare case for Hyperlquid's growth trajectory going forward, which is that a lot of the perex volumes that you've seen it accumulate so far, a lot of that is just latent onchain demand from like the perex vacuum of not having a good onchain solution for it for basically

since the inception of of blockchains themselves. Um and so now that we have a super performant, highly liquid onchain order book product in Hyperlquid um there are a lot of just natural uh user acquisition benefits of being like the only venue that is actually good and that actually works really well at a high level and can be even be compared to to sexes to a certain extent. And I do think that's going to get harder on the perpetual side going forward because eventually, my guess is maybe around like 20 to 25% of Binance's volumes.

Eventually, for derivatives, you're going to hit the point where you have to either win over users from another venue, that being centralized exchanges or you have to create net new users on chain, which happens every day. like every day someone in the Misari office like hops on Hyperlid for the first time and within two weeks they're like the most degenerate prep trader I know. So um it it's happening all the time, but it'll it'll take time. And so, I do think at least on the perpetual side you're going to hit this wall eventually where it gets much harder to break through. Yeah. From like 20% of Binance's per volumes to like 25 to 30 to 40 to 50. I think this team can execute its way there. Um, but I think the real opportunity is actually on the spot side where you haven't really seen

any performant onchain order books be able to take even onchain volumes from AMMs. Um, like if you look at where BTC is traded today, where ETH is traded today, where Soul is traded today they're mostly through they're mostly traded through like concentrated liquidity AMMs on like Orca, aerodrome um, unis swap v3. And so one, that's a big opportunity for Hyperlquid to start stealing some of that volume away from those venues um through its spot product with unit launching BTC, Soul, ETH Farcoin. Uh but two, like that's just untapped potential that it has relative to Binance spot or relative to Sex Spot.

Um and they've obviously found incredible PMF routing spot transactions through their order books. And so we did the analysis a couple of months ago on centralized exchanges. Spot volumes tend to be around 30% of derivatives volumes. And so that's like an incremental 30% in volumes you could just add as like white space for hyperlquid. So I think for up only growth trajectory I'd be paying attention to spot on the perpetual side. I think it's going to be kind of like a slow grind eventually to get higher. But at the same time, I don't think any of these onchain competitors will have a chance at at stealing any of Hyperlid's share for a while. Yeah, I think I have an interesting question for you guys, by

the way, that has to touch on the spot side. So, you know, combined users between like just three top of mind exchanges Coinbase, Binance, Private, etc. is like in the hundreds of millions, right? Hyperlid is sub 1 million in terms of active or registered addresses. Um obviously this could be several people controlling one address or whatever. So obviously the volume per user is just honestly [ __ ] ridiculous. I think this is really not talked about enough but that's that's separate to this point specifically is like um one thing that I think several community members myself Max, many others, right?

have done or like how should I say have more so taken an interesting step in this kind of direction of like teams actually tging on Hyperlid or factoring in the Hyperlid exchange as part of their listing strategy because I think you know I don't know if teams are tired enough of getting rinsed for like a $5 million cash fee and then 5% of their supply or something. I don't I don't think they're tired enough honestly. Um I don't know what gets them there. Is it the fact that like the Binance per listing or listing at all just equals like death for your token? uh probably at least in the short term. Uh we're seeing this in a lot of tokens happen now for the most part. Like you get every exchange listing and nobody really gives a [ __ ] anymore. Everyone just wants the hyperl per listing which is

100% true. Like there's several tokens that I would literally never touch with like a 40,000 foot pole but I would 100% trade it on hyper liquid right and that's just me. And by the way, like I'm very much in the, you know, monk was talking about new onchain users in the misari office every day. Like one of us, you know like I'm literally the definition of a per [ __ ] Um, I'm I've said this in many other uh, you know, talks as well which is like for me with regards to perp trading. I I guess I'm like the hyper liquid dream user because uh, for me if like there's 40x leverage available and like why would I use 10?

Like why would I use 39? There's like an extra piece of, you know, meat to squeeze off. So anyway, um I think there's a lot of use out there like that, right? And there's like a crazy correlation between memecoin traders and perp traders with actually crazy more crazy uh difference and kind of like I don't know almost efficiency. It's like they get the same kick or dopamine rush but without the um quote unquote hard work that goes goes into meme DD which is like oh did the dev set up TG? Did the dev dev pay decks? Like did the TG get hacked? Did they set up mods? So anyway, I think per ultimately I'm sure everyone here shares this view or at least some version of it, but per do become like the, you know, onchain I don't know uh enduser kind of end game

in terms of like degeneracy. But I think in in one way too like teams owe it to themselves to basically secure a listing on Hyperlid for a fraction of what they would pay elsewhere and unit can of course help them do that. But like imagine like the funding rate trade for I'll just say it like Mega ETH or something like that or Bara on on Hyperliquid like these exchanges would get a massive uh chunk out of them eaten honestly at least I I personally think we're starting to see some pretty interesting numbers with uh the three majors that unit has brought over including Fartcoin which does ridiculous per volume as well. Uh anyway I wanted to bring this up and see what you guys thought about that because I thought it was a cool direction not talked about enough not in threads not in you know

shows. So anyway, just throwing it out there. But by the way, I have talked to makers about this, like market makers and they do corroborate this. They're like, "Dude, the hype the hyperlquid flow is like the most profitable flow we've ever seen because because everyone's like James Wyn is out here with a billion dollar Bitcoin notional position just like with no real thesis. I mean, I'm not going to He had a thesis, but I mean, this guy is not jump crypto, did he? Yeah. Yeah. but he's not like Jump Crypto or Liquid Fund or any of these like large sophisticated players that are on like centralized exchanges. And so they're dying right now to get on Hyperlquid. Some of them can't because of compliance issues, but they're like, "Dude, this is beautiful

like extractable flow that we want to market make for um because it's just so good." like onchain onchain dens are just so so much more uh well the the liquidity the liquidity you're talking about too like I mean that's a tried andrue thing like in crypto like liquidity begets liquidity like once you have that like it's it's the same thing with it it's similar to you know the onchain coins like you'll see um you'll see some of the best onchain coins like launch with and they'll have high liquidity so what else can come in like I mean it reminds me of uh I mean The first thing that comes to mind is like boom back last summer. But like the reason that that went insane is because you know, the liquidity pool was at say

like three, four, 5 million compared to your run-of-the-mill coin that launches that is at, you know, 250, 350, 400k liquidity. Like liquidity begets liquidity. And that is a thing that in crypto like that that's it's still like somehow a little bit underrated. And like I think the the per market for that is like I I know we're skeptical a little bit about like how much perfs can grow, but like I am I'm in the camp that that that per you know they're going to the the sign is going to continue. like there's a reason that Robin Hood and Coinbase and the US in general like just you know allow legislation for for

purpose to be liquid and um we'll see how that develops but like that liquidity is the number one thing for me that like makes a difference between you know something that can continue growing and something that can't. Um, so the the spot market like on Hyperlid like that that um I don't know it it'll take a little like I'm more excited personally about the per growth because of the liquidity than I am about the spot market and like the spot market like they have plenty of liquidity on there but um once that like starts starts growing like you know how it does in in AMM like then then you're really cooking with fire. Yeah. I um sorry, one thing I

wanted to mention because you brought up that we're onboarding more people. Um you know what I've been thinking about? Are you guys familiar with Axiom? I assume most people here use PVP trade but so Axiom does both Salana and Hyperlquid. And I feel like that's actually quite a good um way to get this new user base of people who are primarily in the Solana trenches um to get into PERPS because it's relatively seamless as seamless as you can make um solo type of liquid. Um, and that's one thing that I think we wrote about it two weeks ago and I was thinking about that it's like a whole new class. And if you guys ever go on

Twitter and you see these people who are in the Solana trenches, it's not like you you and me. It's it's like 19 year olds with.5 soul in a dream. It's it's legitimately dumb flow. Um, and like you mentioned, that's what people want. And I mean these people can be onboarded potentially. I don't know how many of them are on Telegram to be honest with you. I think most of them typically use Phantom. But either way it's a good growth revenue. One thing that was actually kind of shocking is um Axium makes I think like 95% of its money off of Solana and like sub 5% from Hyper. Dude, I think it's that's a great point. It's even more I think like I think only 50 bits of their uh revenue has actually come from builder codes on

that builder which is pretty crazy. Yeah. Um yeah, because they can't charge the 1% fees they charge on a lot of transactions with with the cap. But um uh but I I think that's actually a good um add-on to the conversation, right? because you know whether we're talking about per p per p per p per p per p per p per p per p per p per p per volumes or spot volumes um the reality is that you know continued growth is coming from entities like axium that integrate hyperlquid as a liquidity backend. I I think often this discourse focuses too much on you know hyperlquid as an exchange alternative right people compare it to individual exchanges or

individual you know per protocols um but with the builder code mechanism right that allows someone to submit transactions on a user's behalf and and charge you know up to a certain fee threshold for doing so u which is different for for spot versus for S we're basically getting to a point where you can have unlimited organizations, you know, do putting the work in for user acquisition and user retention. You know, I my hope is that within a year's time, right, like the builder code ecosystem looks like a proto Shopify, right? where where two beady schmucks from some far-flung part

of the world, you know, could, you know spin up a billboard, attract 10,000 users and, you know, cover their rent that way, right? Like that is, I think the the true bullcase for Hyperlquid is that it just becomes this liquidity layer um for so much and in so many different niches. and Axiom PVP right these teams have kind of shown what what builder codes can do and you know there's a lot I think coming to market over um over the next few months as well uh so I I'm I'm personally interested to see at which point you know longtail centralized exchanges even just kind of throw in the towel and say hey we can have pure

profit by forcing our users um you know to pay the fees we want them to pay but then just delegating our back end basically to hyperl right like that can be pure profit uh and cut out you know 50 60 70% of the cost structure of a centralized exchange um and yeah I assume you know someone will eventually do that I think the math checks out at a certain point and it'll be more than just you know telegram bots uh making use of builder codes it'll it'll be you know the the kind of central ized exchanges people have already on boarded to that that make that call as well. Yeah, I think just

quickly here I think like if you if you want to look at real users on chain today that are actually paying to use a service and not just there for like some sort of incentivized reward structure. It's just Salana Trenchers and and Hyperlquid like traders. And those are basically the two real user cohorts in crypto that I could see right now. um outside of like people that are just like doing stable swaps or or dumping TVL into Ethereum. And so this is like builder codes are direct pipeline into I think like a top two user cohort in crypto. Um and and people are seeing this like I think I've spoken to multiple frontends now where I

basically like they're just like yeah these are the only two ecosystems we even want to focus on at this point. Yeah, it used to be base and Solana. One thing I want to add is before I talks um I think most people don't realize that a lot of regional exchanges just use Binance on the back end or like Binance order books on the back end. So the builder code doesn't really catch on very naturally when people explain like how this could be used. But a lot of the time if you're random regional exchange in some like country that you're not you don't have your own order book. You're just using Binance on the back end. So that's something to to keep in mind. And they pay a ridiculous amount, too. Like it's not as simple as you just plug and

play, right? Which is which is which would make it really ridiculous killer use case. But there's also so much that goes into it, right? Which is like local jurisdictional licensing and other forms of setup. I mean, it's actually ridiculous. Whereas like you guys remember the YouTube era with like Amazon FBA and like every [ __ ] and and their friend would sell like some sort of some course saying like I'll show you how to make like blah blah blah like you know the ecourse uh e-commerce uh e-course guys. I think builder codes in its truest most raw insane kind of form will effectively put that to bed and make it look like kids selling lemonade outside because there is literally no product on planet earth like not even Shopify is simple. Well

not even Amazon is this simple. There's no product on planet Earth right now that literally hands you $4 billion of liquidity, says, "Hey, we're not going to charge you [ __ ] for this, and then you can go and make money on it. You could charge up to 0.1% on the notional value of a per trade, and you could charge up to 1% on a spot trade." There's literally not anything on the planet that does that at scale or even like on a micro level of this. So, yeah builder codes alone should make Hyperlid worth, you know, several other L1s combined. builder codes alone in their truest form, especially if you attach the [ __ ] premium to it that, you know, most other things trade out today especially, you know, when when factoring in revenue. So, that's not even talking about the exchange. That's

not even talking about Hyper EVM. That's not even talking about, you know, crazy things like HIPP3. It's not talking about the fact that you don't need to pay a market maker for a spot listing. It's not talking about not needing to pay, you know, $5 million and a ridiculous amount of your token supply to centralized exchanges. I mean, this leads into the overarching thesis that nobody knows how to price hyperlquid. a objective fact. Yeah. No, I mean I definitely agree with that and like I think what you're talking about there like one of the the the like core things for me is you know the spot the spot listings of coins that are say you know between 50 to 100 million to maybe 200 million. like these coins like whether people want to, you know, accept that they're eventually

going to go to zero, scams, whatnot. Like the spot listing is a major thing. Like you I'm sure you guys see it in chats, you see it in in um on Twitter. Like one of the catalysts that people realize for spot coins is like, oh Binance could potentially list this. Like Coinbase could potentially list this. like that is a major catalyst for what you know what what the coin can go to. And so when Omnia when you're talking about like HIP3 like I I think it's still severely underrated by the market in the sense that anybody can pay for whatever listing. Um, and again like that is a catalyst that people talk

about endlessly in chats is like, "Oh if this could get spotless on Binance if this could get spot listing on Coinbase, and then it's like, hey here's this protocol where you can get if if you want the spot listing, you can pay for it, you know, and like you're talking about with the amount that Binance and Coinbase and I mean, we've seen these threads on Twitter, too, like about how much they siphon from either the token supply or what it costs to list a token like and then hey here's this permissionless protocol that you can list any token on at any price like that is still seems fundamentally undervalued to me because the the market the amount of conversation that happens about the listing payments um what

Binance and Coinbase you know require for a listing like that you guys are aware like this this is an endless conversation on CT and so Then there comes this protocol where actually you can pay a set amount x amount for a listing and that's it. You're done with. And I just think um I think that aspect is severely underrated because again like I mean you see the pump swap volumes, you see the photon volumes, you see the axion volumes. Like again, these coins could be worth essentially nothing, but like there's a desire to

trade them and Hyperlquid is set up to be in a position where you could get spot listings, you could get purple listings. Like that's open finance, like everything they wish they could be. Essentially, the HIP3 is you have to buy hype to stake it, right? Can somebody give me a basic basic explanation of this? I'm very stupid. So very simplified a lot. Uh so with HIPP3 anyone who has a million stake type available to them um would be in a position to then participate in perp market deployment rights. So every 31 hours you know the the right to deploy a perp would go to um uh those who have put up that bond.

So if you know the five of us each had put up the bond the five of us could participate in those per markets. Um if you win that auction you are basically responsible for hosting you know the the price oracle that that perk market uses. If you know it doesn't work right um your bond could be slashed by validators right that and that's social consensus essentially. Um, and I would just add that the main thing to keep in mind too is that, you know, this is a decentralization vector. So HIP3s would not be hosted on HL.xyz, which is just one of many interfaces to the Hyperlquid blockchain.

Right? So, this basically opens up uh the purpose market business um, you know, to anyone who can host this type of market on Hyperlquid. Right? the you know the the fees are there for the taking uh basically and um I would just add you know obviously one million hype $40 million that's quite steep um I would personally just you know approach this conversation with the expectation that you know lending or leasing markets uh will reflect this and it becomes possible for you know credible actors to to source that without you know having $40 million of directional exposure on respective balance sheet. ZeroX research

per coming to a front end near you. We are not doing that. Max, Max, before we pivot, um that's spot markets too right? Because I think you said just park markets, but spot markets is HIP1. So that is uh priced in hype now. It used to be priced in USDC. USDC same as all other fees would basically just go towards the assistance fund and just perma buy hype. And in this case now HIPP1 uh since the tokens are priced in hype as well like the auctions themselves uh which significantly bumped the p like the cost per auction now funny enough uh instead of a 10,000 USDC floor it's now a 500 hype floor um you know the auctions have very quietly

ripped back near six figure range funny enough so that's been hense and that that makes I mean that's everything I'm talking about and I think that we've alluded to about you know the other exchanges like I mean these these exchanges are you know they're juggernauts like you know coin is listed on NASDAQ like Binance is you know they're one of arguably the most profitable companies in the world like alongside Tether like these these companies are that big for a reason and so when you can when you have some type of you know whatever amount of hype it is like to list a spot or per like that that just I don't know it It's an amazing thing to see in my mind because

um you just you open the the floodgates to everything. To you made a really funny point regarding uh BNB a second ago or like Binance in general. So Coinbase obviously just has coin equity but you know buy bit obviously Hello Mantle uh Binance with BNB etc. Um, so interestingly enough, um, you know, CZ made a funny post the other day which was like, "Oh, I had no idea that we had 75 or whatever the [ __ ] the the APR was to to B&B token holders per perm." And it's like I realized the other day that this is the most all right buddy moment I've ever seen in my life probably

because this is literally them not just it it's very much like the big short moment in the se in the movie where it's like why are they um why are they laughing? It's like oh they're not they're bragging. Well, it it was literally like that comment because this is purely revenue extracted from token projects that list on Binance. This is nothing else. This is just Binance launchpool APR essentially and that comes from you know you name it insert project basically paying the cartel extortion fee of getting listed on Binance that just goes straight to uh launchpool stakers which you know obviously speculative but like who knows how much of that is actually controlled uh internally right like that's obviously never going to be that's never going to see the light of day right

whereas the the backwards you know massive middle finger to You're gonna get me killing me, dude. Don't say [ __ ] like that on the podcast. Yeah. All right, cut cut the cut the mic. But the the backward reverse middle finger to that is literally hype using essentially 100% of its revenue to buy back hype. Uh, and you know, I I use the term buyback very loosely because I don't know why it's always irked me that term in this case because tokens were literally never sold. They were just distributed as as we see on Max's headline here. They were literally never sold, right? Like they they weren't sold to the market. It's not like they were placed on like infinite asks or anything like that and just like sold off into

like some sort of concentrated liquidity curve. It was literally just given to everyone. Uh no market makers, no OTC deals, no venture rounds. So what do you call this? Like you don't even call it a buyback because they were never sold. You call it some other some sort of I literally can't even call it anything. S tier revenue crew. I don't know. Gas fee burn. I I mean fe hyper core runs on trading fees as as its de facto gas fees and so far we've just been burning half basically or the USDC half uh on spot and you know whatever fees are are being generated by the per so with nearly 400 million BTC onchain

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Um, I think this one will be probably different takes. Um, valuing hype. Um, when I did it, I'm going to start off with Sunny. Um, and then we're going to do a whip round just because he has the valuation for. Actually, I don't know any of you guys background, so you might be better at it. But um, in my mind, it makes the most sense to do some of parts. That's what I've done in the past. Um, and hyper EVM is quite little. Um, obviously because it earns less money. Um, but to me that seemed like the the thing that could have potentially more growth just

because as you mentioned, I'm also in that camp. I think you can take volume away from sexes. But I do think that there is a certain like it's a crowded space. these massive um industry like these massive companies already control so much of the market share. It's a tough space. Um so to me it made sense that the hyper EVM would have to grow a lot more. Um and I basically did a sum of parts but I'm curious like how you guys are thinking about it. Um if that makes sense. Yeah, I did uh some of the parts too from my first report and basically like um and the reason why is because if you look at like average pricing across crypto like Hyperlid looks like an expensive asset if you compare it to

DEX's but it looks like a cheap asset if you compare it to L1's. And that's because it's both. It's both enshrined. And um when I did it, I think I threw like a very conservative multiple on projected perex revenues. This was before spot um like unit actually launched like spot BTC. Um and I think I got to like base case 8 bill for the perpex and then I slapped on like a 5 billion L1 premium because that's where like Apttodos was trading around and that was before the EVM was out. Now when I look at I I just revisited the numbers today. So Hyperlid already blasted through my bullcase. Like, it's like in terms of volumes, it's actually outperformed my

bullcase dramatically. Um, I think it hit what I expected it to do around like 2027 already. Um, and then, uh, and and that's because spot is now like a huge contributing factor as well with like hype BTC and ETH. Um, and then the L1 is now a top 10 chain by TVL. And so you've gota you've got to reate both of those higher. Um, and I think this is basically I think the way I think about most crypto evaluations is the fundamental stuff is kind of the floor. Um, and then the speculative premium kind of emerges on a comps basis where you're basically looking at what can hype flip in a speculative environment and when everything changes it goes back to okay like what does hype actually earn? Um and so in a speculative

environment I would be looking at something like we already flipped sweet I think so like BNB um as like a next target maybe even soul eventually I think it can get there. Uh but from a fundamental basis like I think we're trading at close to if not below where if you want to do like an academic sum of the parts like where it should be valued around like 30 to 40 billion or so. Um, and by the way, like the team is constantly adding more sneaky valuation drivers into into the hype asset. And so HIPP3, which we talked about, if you think about it right, let's say hype theoretically goes to like zero. It's like it's trading at 1 cent, but all the users are still on hyperlquid. And so if you can deploy HI an HIPP3 per and make like I don't know

millions of dollars off of the organic usage on the platform, then it's a no-brainer to stake that 1 million hype. if hype is like ridiculously cheap. And so there are all these things that like and if if you're like a market maker or you're a trader and you're you're very very active on Hyperlid as a platform you're also going to want to buy and stake hype because at some point those benefits from the staking tiers like the fee reductions are going to outweigh the cost of actually buying and staking staking that hype. And so there are all these like sneaky ways that like Jeff is linking utility and uh uh utility to the token that I think will also play a factor. But if we want to do it in the most academic sense possible as a research analyst I I I

think of some of the parts makes the most sense. And you look at some of these L1s. I mean, there are L1's. I mean, I think AVAC is below Hyperlid in terms of the Hyper EVM in terms of TVL or right around that range. And AVAC is I don't know what is that now like a $20 billion protocol. Yeah. Massive like that. Yeah. Sorry, finish up Sunny. Um, and yeah, the last thing I'll say which Omni has like kind of addressed before is nobody knows how to value Hyper Core. Like people people have no idea what it is. Like I've talked to VCs, I've talked to liquid funds, very good ones understand it fully. But if you think about crypto's top use cases, this is the use case. Like trading per trading spot is basically like 90% of what makes

revenue onchain today. And so there's no reason why hyper core itself can't be valued as one of the like top two top three alternative crypto assets in the universe. And uh I I'll end it there. I'll let everyone else take the floor. Another big factor is the fact that Hyperlid is the only one in what is it top 10 now or just outside of top 10 I think top 11 that doesn't actually emit tokens or could have like some sort of hidden supply somewhere. It is literally removing 2% of current circulating supply per month with its fees. And this was only accelerated by like a massive uh fee bump. I mean it's not that massive. It's not like extractive. It's still extremely cheap compared to other places. Um, but like Monk, for example

when you put out your report or Bach the same thing for you. Like we didn't have these fees to actually base anything off of. So now like the fee increase has been significant. Whereas like a $1 million day, 500k day in terms of revenue was pretty normal before. It's like more like 2 or 3 million now which is pretty insane. Obviously coupled with a ton of volume. Like now $10 billion in a day is like considered wow. Like that's that's cool today. Nice. When 20, you know, something like that. Again, not just for the sake of yeah, volume must continue to go up forever. No, it's just the fact that the team continues to stay relatively on point uh with regards to listings. More and more people get onboarded. Monk made a really underrated point uh earlier actually that I think just the general CT mind cannot comprehend compliance and

just the ability to onboard the hyperl is so misunderstood by the general public like 99.98% of people don't understand that lit people are force sidelined because of their mandates on on every single part of hype today which is like buying it investing into anything on it I guess because like there's what do you do right like there's that and then the third one is actually trading on it So how do you do it right like there's several market makers like flowes and I've seen winter uh recently that offer OTC services um I mean so like the these really interesting solutions have had to be crafted because hyper core is this nent completely unique network that people have just had to essentially like uh Max and I had a joke for a very long time

and I think this is going to be very relevant to this. We had a joke for a very long time where uh VC and liquid fund uh managers essentially would start to very soon get really angry messages from their LPs. I don't think that specifically has started yet, but I think the the kind of I guess you could say part two the micro version of that joke as well has been that uh custodians would start to get really angry messages from their clients and this has started. Uh so there are several really large custodians that are coming to support HyperVM and eventually Hyper Core. One one quick t one quick point on that. If you look at these liquid fund returns one most of them are not that good. Two the ones that are good are usually

driven by like betting on the asset for that specific period. So in the last last few years it was sold. If the next few years the asset is hype and you don't have exposure to hype, you're going to get absolutely killed. And so you're going to figure out how to expand your mandate to to to buy hyperlquid. Like I think it just has to be if other funds are figuring it out then you have to figure it out at some point. And so it's it's it's more of a question of when and and not how. Not to mention there's stuff hyperl could do fundamentally to improve like the compliance situation. The I guess what I would add to this conversation is just when we think about valuation frameworks and what makes sense versus what doesn't, right?

I think the underlying assumption there is that there are forced deployers of capital and in crypto, you know, we have it now for Bitcoin, right? Like things like IBIT or MSTR, right? Like are kind of becoming more and more within the mandate of certain trify allocators. But in crypto outside of Bitcoin, we're looking at a very momentum driven asset. And so in my mind, you know, I would say I I don't really have like a price target for for me. It's more, you know, what does the the marginal demand profile look like at any given point in time and what does the amount of leverage in the system look like at any given point in time. And I think what makes hype very intriguing from that

perspective, right, is even with the growth uh of the hypervm and the usage of defi applications on it. We essentially have, you know, what 13 billion worth of collateral available in the form of hype at the moment. I want to say somewhere on the order of 600700 million of that has been deployed, you know, to borrow stables against and what have you. And that's about it. And at the same time, right, you have the, you know, assistance fund mechanism basically eating away at circulating supply at all times. Um, I think most last time I checked, right, like we would have eaten away the entire

circulating supply within 5 years. Compare that to literally any other asset in this industry, right? And it's just like unparalleled. Um, so I think as we talk about valuation, as hype becomes more and more consensus across the industry um, you know, I do think the the animal spirits have yet to to be deployed here. Um and I would just make the point right for for those listeners that you know have been around for a few cycles when you look at kind of the leveraged parabas that played out for for assets in the past you know whether it was like BNB sol right those were all in my mind kind

of like supply side crises right there was just ton of demand for these assets and a lot of leverage and things exploded um the whole time though, people were dumping, right? Like how many ICOs were dumping ETH in 2017? How many insiders were dumping the whole way up on those types of assets back then? Um, you know in 2011, for example, and now we finally have an asset that, you know, has a deflationary rate of 15% that's acting as a collateral, you know, foundation uh for for the ecosystem that's getting built out here.

you know, we just have not seen that before. Um, so I I personally track, you know, certain metrics like, you know how long would it take for the circulating supply to get bought back right? And I think that's probably going to be one of the more useful, you know multiples or kind of just north stars going forward here. Um, because it is such a peculiar asset and what is already a peculiar asset class. I think that makes sense. I actually wrote like a bearish report on buybacks a couple of a couple of months ago and then people were asking me okay like why are you bearish buybacks but bullish hyperlquid and I was like well I think what differentiates like a bad buyback program and a good buyback program is

whether the protocol actually makes revenue and no one makes revenue like hyperlquid and so that's like a big differentiator like if you can actually buy back the entirety of your circulating supply then then yeah that might be more effective than someone that's doing like 50 bips like uh every quarter. Another thing there is that if you're like I think if Hyperliquid was at 10% um market share in per then I'd say maybe spend that money on acquiring new users somehow. But I think like my argument has so there's two camps in that at least in like blockworks research is that one says you should just be reinvesting as much of

your revenue as possible. Um I think the more realistic take which is also my take which is why it's the better take is that you should percent in either case because crypto like it or not it is very much narrative driven still. Um and I think the buyback is is a good narrative because it shows that your token acrews at least some form of value. Um, it's not as efficient as other ways of um like I think in equities at least, I don't know about in crypto, it's like historically not as efficient as other ways of um giving acral to token holders or equity holders or whatever. But I think it's like in the case of Hyperlid, I think it works

in most cases. I think buybacks work. Um, that's been my overall take. Tolks do you want to give a little No, I mean I would uh I would agree with a lot of parts that everybody said. Um I also am am very um I'd say just aware of what the market is doing too because I think you should always be aware of that too. and Bach, I know you can pull up the the hype soul chart.

Um, you can pull up, you know, hype BTC. Like, I think I think these things are important because it's also what the market values. And like, yeah, maybe you can argue um hype is a little expensive here, but like you're talking about a token that if it doubles, it'll enter the top 10 of crypto tokens. And a double right now is like, you know that's that's not something anybody is necessarily pricing in. Um I think the the I tow the line between like the fundamental aspect of things is very important like you were talking about Bach with Blockworks research like there's you know kind of a divide

between what is you know what are the fundamentals and what is the narrative like I remember talking six months ago when we had the initial hype pod like in my bullcase was not only the product what it offers the buybacks and everything, but it was also if Sooie goes to XY Z then hype goes to ABC like and people can think that these ration are you know they're they're not smart but like that's just how crypto markets work and like at some point at the end of the day like you have to like the fundamental cap like I I love that. I I

love getting into the nitty-gritty of the fundamentals, but at some point you have to understand what drives these markets and what drives these markets is maybe 10% fundamentals if that like of course in a bare market they become more important and like I think hype and you know if we go into a bare market like hype will be um one of the better tokens you can look at and say hey they buy this amount back they still have x amount of users you know their spot volume for this. Like there the perp trading is not going to stop. Like all of that is important.

Um but yeah, so I I just look at the top 10 and I'm like, you know, hype's at uh 13 right now on Coin Gecko and it's like it would literally take a double to get into the top 10. Like that for me is simple enough to understand what the bullcase is. And I know that's, you know, that's throwing out a lot of everything we talked about for the past you know, 55 minutes, but like that [ __ ] unfortunately matters. You know unfortunately, fortunately depends on your view. Like that stuff matters in crypto. And you know, we can all want a future where it doesn't matter, but at in the current environment, like it matters. And again, like going back to

what we talked about 61 a skill, it's just like if BTC is at is at X, then hype is probably going to be at Y. And you know, if Sooie goes to X, then uh then hype is going to be at Y. And if Soul is at, you know, $80 billion FTV like, okay, then what is the fair comp for hype? Like the the comps matter. And I think the higher that um BTC and Soul and ETH go, like I think the higher that the targets for for hype get. And I know that's very um I don't know, not practical, I guess. But like again, if you're ignoring that stuff in crypto like I think you're investing and

looking at the space in a wrong way. Like I would love for the day when fundamentals are the only thing that matters. And like eventually I think we'll get there, but in the meantime like the comps going higher like that you see going up in a straight line like that's the best thing you can ever want as a hypeolder in my opinion. Yeah completely agreed. I think most people recognize that. I don't know if I would say 10%. I think this year but it's definitely but you know what I mean. Yeah, completely agree with you. 100% agree with you. Yeah, I'm I would just I'll end it with saying like I'm I'm bullish hype like and again like you can look at like when we have that selloff going into the the tariff

[ __ ] like look at what the strongest performers are and like hype has tripled since then like to me that is all you need to know. I think for the longest time um in previous like in 2023 like when Soul was going up I think a lot of people just ignored it and thought like you know but there was some signal in there and then Soul ended up being the top performer for you know the next two years like there is signal and I if you ignore everything you ignore fundamentals you ignore you know the price of every asset the FTV everything look at what bounces the hardest from the bottom and it's very clear that hype was that token this year. And I think there's a lot of similarities between soul in 2023 and

hype now. And again, that has no comment on what those tokens offer, what the product offers. It's just what the market wants to bid the most. And that is more important than the fundamentals in a lot of a lot of times. Good thing we have the uh hyperlquid marketing machine. We're all part of the the SCOP. Yeah. The marketing department. When when marketing when marketing dev any updates? But no, like it's it's a very a very crucial point to think of is like what bounces the hardest and like hype was the thing that bounced the hardest. And to me, like you can be bullish on an asset, but until something

like that bounce happens, you're not necessarily like at least in my mind like you're not necessarily convicted in your beliefs until you see that bounce. And then you're like, okay, not only am I right about the fundamentals of this asset, about what the growth trajectory could be, but also the market wants to bid it the hardest when everything falls. And that is that is just crucial. I wanna I want to take us to the fundamentals one time and then I'm gonna end it. Um but before I get yelled at by the rest of the research team hype hyper EVM. So I I asked our we have a data site. I asked Rod who was kind enough to

share with me some of the work that they started doing. This is not complete and it might not be perfectly accurate to be honest with you. Um if you can see I can zoom in a bit but um hype is over the past month it's at 1 mil um rev which is priority tips plus base fees. Um that is half of arbitum but it is ahead of avalanche polygon opt zk sync polygon zkm. Um it is not very impressive. I'm not going to lie to you guys, but I think this um kind of shifts perspective a bit is that the growth over the past two weeks just has just been incredible. And I think part of this is people getting tired of the same old games on certain

chains. Part of it is just that when you launch a chain, um who talked about this? One of you guys talked about this in that people um when you talk to builders, they're building on several chains. So originally it was I think like for the 2023 it was base plus salana typically people focused on as a developer. Um more recently I think a lot of people are focusing on hyperlquid um and base and salana still obviously because these are still very important ecosystems. Um and I think as more of those products come online um such as kinetic hopefully at some point um one right pre-ompile

Boach this is this is for this is basically what occurs to stakers right this is not this is not what acrru to stakers this is so it's different from the salana model who's accuring the value yes yes I I actually need to look at this because I don't want to get it wrong I'm not sure if hypervm network fees are burned they are probably okay so if they're burned they're kind of acrewing in that they're just burnt yeah it's I think it's a completely different like acural model compared to to Salana which if you're a staker on Salana like you're you're looking at rev and you're trying to calculate like what you can get as a Salana validator staker if you're uh if you're on hyperlquid then

you want to own the token um because yeah hype is accreating that value back to the community. Yeah. Yeah. Some people have argued to distri some of this cash to like bakers and and stuff like that. But DYDX did this. I I believe it was like 11% APR and we all know how that went. The last uh before I forget, the last bullish thing I'll say about hype is um you can't we live in a world where in the crypto world where alts continuously emit new tokens you know over and over and over like it that is the endless debate on CT about what is the supply of this what is the supply of that what's coming online what's you

know a year from now two years from now I don't think people appreciate enough like it it's um it's it should be appreciated more that you know the supply of hype is known what is out there is known what is coming in the future is known like all of that really I again like I I just don't think it's appreciated enough and I think the supply aspect is something that we haven't talked about at all this podcast but like that is it's um it's one of those things that's very hard to quantify, but when you look at other alts, you look at other assets, you look at their emissions, um, and then you look at hype and it's just like, holy

[ __ ] Yeah, this is I want that to be known. No, that's a good point. This is something um I'll also touch upon and then we can end it. Um, this is from my friendies over at ASX and they have this dashboard and over the past 30 days they've bought back oh the assistance fund has bought back nearly 2 mil hype which uh is apparently $55 million US. Um, Max, do you have handy your little calculator for circulating supply? Do you know what it is? It's roughly 33% right now. Yeah. I mean, so hype burn.f fun uh is like the main calculator I use. Um I don't know if you

want to throw that up on on the screen. Hype burn. Very very fun website. Yeah I sent the link as well. It's a great dash. And then it's under the Yeah, it's under the stats uh tab up up top. Feel free to hover over the bottom part of the pie chart when you when when you would like some entertainment for a second. Wait, what what are points at now? I haven't even looked. What What is the $180 per point now? 800 is going to be true. But yeah, I mean, I just I want to echo again like we're in an we're in a space where everybody is is fighting for, you know alt assets that aren't BTC that everybody is arguing over, you know, the

supply, what's coming online, what's not. And like you have an asset in hype that not only buys back a [ __ ] ton of the supply, not only has the perve growth, not only has the spot growth and like a bunch of catalysts for future spot growth, but at the same time like it's one of the only alt assets where you understand the supply and you understand what is coming and like that I think is entire is still like largely underrated by the market. Yeah, that makes sense. This is this is a good website. I didn't know this existed to be honest. I've just been doing calculations on for people are going to visit the site and like they they should

really factor in like two main things like when you go to the bar chart like take a look at the remaining supply. Obviously, uh the team has taken a relatively generous amount like 24% of supply and like the remaining supply goes to community. it's literally team cuz obviously they deserve uh a slice a more you know generous slice in something that they've literally built for years now. Um for those that weren't aware of how long Hyperloop's been in development for um and then 42% because it was 38 before and now because of 4% of total supply being unclaimed at Genesis there's now 42% of the remaining hype supply to be distributed which is well over $10 billion today. Um, and this could be distributed in who knows

how, right? Like it could be it could be like a re ridiculous like um BNB burn style. Who the hell knows? I mean, is that efficient? Probably not. But, um it still technically would fall into going under the the community allocation, I guess you could say, if it just didn't didn't ever exist. Um, and then ready for sale supply, which is something that was on that last chart that you showed as well, Boach, is very interesting and and Max brings up a great point, too, with regards to hype being used across many different applications. Of course, Kinetic being one of them, but several others. Money markets like Felix, Hyperlend Hyperdrive, um, AMMs like Curve Laminar, and several others. I mean like, there's just so many ways that hype hasn't even yet been put to work.

The Hyper EVM amount of hype essentially with only 1.6 billion in TVO is just infinitismal compared to, you know, the TVL on some other chains, for example right? because other chains factor in the total amount of uh that token that sits on the chain because there's no split between the network so to speak on different quote unquote accounts but Hyperlid TVL is well over 10 billion today 4 billion in cash which is like just as much as almost anywhere besides Ethereum uh and again USDC and like starting to pick up with tether and whatnot but then you have tens of billions of dollars on hype there which is not factored in because it's either staked or uh some of it very small percentage of it sits on hyperbm and a lot of it just sits in wallets actually like That's the ready for sale supply.

It's literally just sitting in wallets not staked. 194 million highs, 90 almost 20% of the total hyperlid supply. I mean it's pretty ridiculous. So, putting this to work is going to be very, very exciting. Uh, and just overall something that is going to continue to again prove what Max just said very, very correct which is throwing on this crazy speculative and monetary premium, the hype as it gets used in so many different ways. I think I think no matter what valuation metric you ascribe to or how you want to value hype, it's pretty much all bullish. So if you want to use comps it's bullish. If you want to use supply demand dynamics, it's bullish. If you want to use a fundamental uh feebased model, like it's it's bullish. Um and so

like any way you slice it, like there's just it's just kind of a an undervalued asset. So yeah, bullish. I that's a good note to end it on. Um I am going [Music] to take this all into account. Buy more. Yeah perfect. I I I can't afford it. I can't buy any more hype. I don't have any money. Um I need to shell some stuff. First of all, Zerx research pers, man. Zerx research pers. That's not coming. Do not say that. Um, can't wait. Can't wait.

Check out Tlx and Puan. Check out DeFi Monk. Do not check out Misari. Um Kinetic hopefully at some point. Um soon. Give Right. Max, I know to chill with you man, because you have a day job and then you are also Jeff's right-hand man, apparently. What do you want to show? An evangelist. if he's listening. I'm not. No. Uh I've been working on some stuff in Stealth. Um and so hopefully I can share more next month about that. Um very good. So yeah, just my Twitter uh account for now and that's about it.

We'll include everything in the in the show notes. Potentially even Sunny's tweets even though they're Msari branded. But guys, this was fantastic. Um, thank you all for coming on and taking time to appreciate you having us. Appreciate it. [Music]