How To Prevent The Next Crypto Hack | Rob Behnke, Steve Walbroehl

Transcript

we're still in the pioneering stages of all this and when code equals money and when you know your your money is theoretically locked up in these contracts they're only as you know the other thing that we say is like you're only as strong as your weakest line of code all right everyone welcome back to another episode of Empire uh you got me running this one solo santi's taking this one off he's traveling today uh we are joined by Rob and Steven of halborn uh welcome guys how you doing howdy howdy uh Rob man this is a joke before this is a long time long time in the making uh I last I think the first time we ever spoke you had two employees which you uh duly noted out was just you and you and Steven so uh congrats on everything man how how big is uh halborn

these days uh uh last time I think we're about 140 now um he's globally distributed around the world we have about a third of our people are based in the United States a third of our people happen to be in Spain and then another third definitely distributed throughout the you know kind of throughout the globe nice awesome guys um so just for context for folks who don't know hellborn um Steven CTO Rob your CEO both co-founders you guys announced this 90 million dollar series a uh in the summer Summit Partners uh Castle Island uh dcg I think it was Brevin third prime skyvision Fenwick um you guys have hundreds of clients I'm pretty sure at this point

um and to mine I wanted to bring you guys on because you got in my mind you guys are the leading cyber security firm in crypto um but I think it'd be helpful we usually don't do this at the beginning of episodes but maybe just because you guys are a little more behind the scenes can you just give an overview of of what halborn is and what what you guys do sure absolutely uh we'll make we'll make the quick version um you know halborn is a cyber security company for the world of web 3 where all B2B we focus on major Enterprises as well as major blockchain foundations and D5 protocols I think people tend to lump every security company in the space in the smart contract auditing and while we

do smart contract auditing we'll really focus on is what we call security advisory and it's this idea that basically there's so much more that you can pone besides a smart contract and we've seen that time and time again in sort of all the headlines that you folks at blockworks and many others publish about and so we're really just here to help secure the whole stack and so we really have a fundamental focus in what's what's really just called like end-to-end security so all the web 2 assets all the on-chain components all the off chain components and while we are while we've made a name for ourselves in this space in a really short amount of time in sort of Professional Services and Consulting we have a pretty extensive amount of

products that will be dropping throughout the course of next year uh actually about six to seven of those products uh throughout the end of the next year um but yeah I'll stop there that's a little bit about about us so it's interesting because I wanted to bring you guys on what after some of the hacks were happening and I feel like we kept punting on this episode um there are over two billion dollars of hacks this year right the 100 100 million and I'm gonna maybe botch some of these but like 100 million BNB chain like 600 million and Ronin like 325 in Wormhole 100 million in harmony I'm not even sure if I'm getting all those correct here but uh basically a ton of hacks um but you guys wanted to when you pinged me about this episode uh you wanted to focus uh you wanted to kick

this off talking about the systemic risk um and he said we're highly opinionated on this topic which I'm just kid like I think we should start there because you guys want to go there um but I thought you were going to want to talk about look smart contract risk and and hacks but I think you want to go broader and talk about the the systemic risk in the system so Rob can you just let like I'm going to tee you up super broad question like why like why why do you want to talk about this why do you guys feel so strongly about this well security and risk go hand in hand and so you know when you when you talk to Major Enterprises you know there's first Department's compliance and security right and so um you know it's funny like we were also gonna pardon we were going to have a

conversation and then all the FTX stuff started to happen and really that's just that goes into sort of the core thesis about you know there's there's so much more at risk both on chain and off chain um but I'll you know Steve what do you what do you yeah so yeah I could talk about systemic risk I think it's Rob and I have long conversations about it and looking at it as a whole because you can be very prescriptive and go on rect and you know talk about the you know what went wrong with Ronin what went wrong poly Network and BNB bridge and so and so on and they're all uh you know there's specific issues that impact them and we and we check for that but you know broadly we care about you know

security of the entire space we want to see it succeed you know all boats rise with the water here and we want to you know that's the reason why Rob and I got into it is because you know we like what you know crypto and blockchain can do for for technology and for for people and we want to secure to build trust so you do that you know holistically it's about you know eliminating systemic risk and there's a lot of it that we see right now uh Rob just mentioned like with with having with like FTX and you know before we could look at Celsius and we can look at um Tara and some of these like large impacting things that are just like lowering trust uh for for everybody that has you know whether you're very uh very knowledgeable of it or you're new to it

and you know it really kind of hinders the the growth and adoption um you know by by consumers and uh you know lowering this trust and something that really it's hard to secure that because a lot of the the issues happening with that is you know things that go against that really don't have anything to do with the core of blockchain and what's trying to solve you know it's uh you know people issues it's the auditing issues it's the fraud but that's that's systemic risk around like the um you know the not really the the technology at all but some of the large things that that are happening um that I think is in the wrong direction that we see that it you know eventually leads to it is this like

search for like super high apy and you know that kind of can't sustain itself over time and um you know we look at Bitcoin I'm a big Bitcoin Maxie that's what I got started into it you know it's about uh you know sound money and the 21 million cap and uh deflationary asset yet uh you know a lot of things we're doing with even that is derivatives and synthetics and wrapped assets and then staked assets of the wrapped assets and they have like these layers and layers layers it really reminds me of like some of the risks that we were taking on with uh you know 2008 you know financial crisis of like these um derivative contracts and you know synthetic cdos and cdos is just

eventually when when the hits the fan sorry it's uh it it's it gets becomes chaos and uh you know there's systemic risk that just can't be controlled and it you know it eventually happens there I think we've seen a couple times right now so I think that's like where we get into it uh just with with around D5 and stuff I'm even looking at the code or the vulnerabilities you know on that I think that's that's one of the things that we really really um you know look at just from principles on the outside not like picking on any particular protocol yeah we look at it from the foundational perspective I mean we really got into Bitcoin for all the purposes that most people on this podcast got into it with and then we see a lot of the same mistakes happening right now compared to

what you know Bitcoin came out of 2008 financial crisis now all of a sudden we're Reinventing this idea of synthetics and cross cross chain synthetics and so on and yeah it's like like we're not we're not learning any lessons there yeah um yeah and and like it's it's interesting too because you know Defy is amazing like there's so many things you could do with uh to solve some problems like you know lending and borrowing for example you know giving uh mortgage loans you could have um you know people be able to use Smart contracts to execute and you know buy real estate much quicker or get a loan much quicker uh do it more transparently do it you know using like escrow payments and use use the technology for uh for improvement and and truly move

into like a web a a web three uh so to speak and um but we get to become obsessed with like this the the value like a token value for something and just like value chasing on things and it's like almost like human greed uh you know pushing it Forward rather than human uh you know Improvement and process Improvement and enabling new things I think we should focus on on that much more because um you know cryptocurrency is is one aspect of it but there's so many things that are just beyond not just currency you know uh you know the actual technology you use for it so um I think we open our our minds of perspective on what it can do then uh it's gonna be a lot brighter future and of course we're always there to now look

at the code vulnerabilities around that rather than financial or environmental issues that can happen so that's like one aspect of systemic risk um and then another one is uh you know coding of the things we could go down the topic again about um like one one vulnerability is found but everybody's forked the code and we see it like let's just say we found out the metamask uh zero day uh of a while ago that was you know published and released um how many people had fourth metamasks code and then just now you have the same vulnerability uh with with every every solution there's no diversification with that because of the nature of Open Source so that's another systemic risk type it's not really Financial environmental related more to like code

code issues that uh you can see where um it just impacts everybody's diversification in the technology sometimes for especially because it's how new it is yeah so these are the topics that Steve and I and our executive team are talking about all day every day and um just by kind of working with like you know dozens of leading layer ones and D5 protocols and Enterprises we get sort of this more macro overview of the whole space and so from these conversation stems okay well there should be a product there there should be something that helps solve that we've recently um you know we're building out a concept um you know called serif which is a blockchain security notary solution which is supposed to be able to help

situations like this um so yeah and that's all nice so so so I think that I think the Stephen I think you hit the nail on the head which is they're they're really two main issues in the industry in in the industry I would say one is on The Leverage side of things and one is on the security side of things basically in Bear markets Leverage is probably your biggest nightmare because everything unwinds really really quickly so if you even look at like genesis's loan book three years ago in Q4 they had like 50 million of loans outstanding last year in Q4 that had 50 billion right 100 Exit uh 100 100x increase and so that unwinds really really quickly

um and everyone right now is the question if you look at all the podcasts and the news stories and the Twitter threads it's like what's the contagion and really what people are saying is like okay like what's the next Domino to fall I would love to actually focus on the other one here which is in Bear markets leverages the biggest nightmare in Bull markets uh security and security and hacks end up being the biggest risk and it's really obvious why which is there's so much money going around uh everyone's trying to capture market share they end up moving really really quickly and and and hacks start happening and that's why you see a lot of hacks in Bull markets uh lesson lesson bear markets at least that would be my thesis so I'm curious what like one thing when I I'm not technical so when I look at all these hacks it really

feels like you're playing whack-a-mole right I'm like oh this bridge hack happened because of this this bridge hack happened because of this thing okay so then people learn how to solve that and then it's like okay well then this L1 went down because of this issue from 2018. okay boom we solved that and it's like it really does feel like playing whack-a-mole so I'm curious Stephen what do you like when you look at the security landscape today like what do you you think are the biggest issues what do you like how basically how do you think things are going today so um yeah you're right I love the the bear market and and bull market uh thesis because you hit the nail on the head as well where during bull market people are in a rush and it's not just like developers it's users as well so I think

the the the the two biggest issues on the first the user side is just awareness um you know people are excited they're they don't know what to trust they just want to like get you know they're fomoing and they just like we'll go in things so it's like social engineering fishing we see so many Ico like you know Twitter I'm sorry uh telegram like chat rooms of like fake tokens or duplicating that and they lose their money right away and they're not you know doing their research they're getting scanned losing their private keys and it's just you know user awareness which is not uh not dissimilar to like normal security um you know for people and on the developer side which is is what we

interact with more because we're auditing and doing the reviews of the code and the Technology Solutions um yeah it's it's uh developers trying to go to market faster um you know rushing through code and again that systemic risk too of uh reusing something that may be vulnerable and just like okay well it's you know it's a erc20 contract everybody uses it it should be fine and then all of a sudden you see like an issue in your T20 it's like oh crap and now everybody's there now like uh you know everybody's effective for it um and because in relation to you know the normal like web 2 world it's still new it's still small and we're finding

you know issues that are very novel and like zero days very often um that's why it seems like whack-a-mole it's like okay this is a new issue we've never seen before and that's a new issue we've never seen before and we have these new classification of of issues that that have never seen before um security has a thing called like OAS top 10 and it's like the top web vulnerabilities like you know SQL injections and it's almost like I'm like oh that's boring now because you're just like you see it all the time and here it's like the top 10 is a defining brand new things that uh yeah like we we have our own categories we use internally that um are are very very novel and we're like oh my God so like here's um integer sanitation for uh you know rust

uh buffers and like okay that's how do we classify that I don't know uh and so um so it's it's it's it it because it's moving so fast uh you have you can't take security for an afterthought yeah and because people's money is like on the line right away it's everything moves extremely fast including hacks um and you know in traditional traditional security if you you know find a vulnerability or you fish somebody you know you're inside the network and moving around you finally like after maybe like a week or month you extract credit cards from like the the database here you miss one line of code and there's one flaw some you know very uh creative hacker finds it they

can immediately extract you know millions of dollars and you know just get away with it so uh the stakes are way higher the timeline's way faster the security issues are way more you know unique and unresearched and it requires a lot of time and attention from engineers and people like us to you know do that do research and work with developers to think about logically how you know what could go wrong with this stuff and things like a hacker and it's not an easy conversation when we're talking with D5 protocol Founders and layer one Founders uh you know I typically say like look like web like you're coming from the web too world like web2 is move fast break things but in web 3 it's moved fast and lose all of

your investor money so it's really like you need to have that discipline when code equals money code equals value it's there's so much more on the line it's so more this so much more visceral and so like we're we're typically the we're typically the bottlenecks with with our with our clients like on purpose like look like I understand that you're working on this deadline it's very great that you're working on this deadline we need this much time in order to make sure that we feel comfortable to be able to say that you should go out and launch and we're we're we're frankly proud of that like having that ability it's been sort of our rationale and our mindset

that has been able to you know that's why we've kind of gained the reputation that we have throughout the last two three years that we've been out there you won't find our name on the rec list I mean it's like it's pretty pretty specific actually one one time but and it wasn't something we missed it was um you know we we found the the issue uh we you know they just chose to accept the risk they accepted the risk and nobody you know most people don't read the report there's like like oh heck they audited it that's it it's like but we found it we should be yeah it's listed right there they're all black it's literally listed right there for all the black hats to go out and pone because we found it the person just yeah you know

yeah okay so guys so so so Stephen just used this word like we audited it and one the the way that I know uh that I understand a lot of the security happens today is smart contract audits um when I speak with folks who are in your positions and like some of the smartest people I know on the dev side they're like smart contract audits are like a total Band-Aid solution it's long-term a horrible solution to to solving some of these uh security risks I'd love to hear your guys's take on like I know one thing you guys do a smart contract audits but I'm curious if you think that's a long-term sustainable way to keep to keep defy safe here's here's my take on it uh in security there's there's different uh types of approaches to secure you have really

like preventative ones and reactive ones and with with a smart contract audit what you're doing is you're you're doing preventative which there's not too many options uh we actually we have a tool I'll talk about in a second that's that the first preventative tool um but an audit is a prevention mechanism to say okay we're preparing for it we want to eliminate the future uh issues from happening and you know it's it's a service and the the problem is you're you're trusting that it was complete and you know there's no issues and you put it out there on the blockchain and uh you know after that it becomes you know reaction it's okay it's getting hacked you know pause the

contract or you know freeze freeze the usdc you know you're you're responding to it um because it's decentralized you know it's very hard to you know control it and not be decentralized that's the thing it's uh you know it's out there it's transparent it's open source and it's up you know the code is law they you know they out and say so um that's that's why auditing is kind of is valued and why you know it's a I wouldn't say it's a Band-Aid it's a layer there's defense and depth there you should be doing many things there's not one tricked Pony for anything not even like normal web 2 security you should always have layers and layers of security and layers of prevention and

monitoring and everything until you feel risk has been reduced to an acceptable level that's what it comes down to with with anything with cyber security um and uh with with the uniqueness of blockchain being decentralized it's hard to have secure controls at a preventive and not overstep into centralization so that's why with serif which Rob had mentioned before that's one of our our first solutions that we've launched uh it's adding a notary a you know a trusted third party that can be somebody else or it could be halborn that will just on chain in a non-custodial way be able to notarize just critical transactions like a withdrawal funds or

something that's like a huge uh you know an upgrade of an admin or something that's uh you know shouldn't happen too often only under particular conditions to get it you know to get some sort of control on it um and prevent uh you know edge cases or unexpected results yeah so that that's what we've we've built um and I think auditing has been you know the only thing really to to provide that preventative aspect um well Stephen what were the two buckets you said there's preventative and then there's what's the other bucket uh prevent prevention and uh reaction you know reaction to a heck like oh we're getting hacked like let's uh freeze it or just monitor it or let's see yeah this you're reacting to something already happened some some

security folks in the space have focused on insurance protocols so things like that where oh you get hacked and now here's some money back so that's yeah that's that's an example of a of a reactive solution I mean how like when I look at how folks have been reactive today it's so it's interesting right because governance make some decision making pretty slow right you need like four of seven or five of seven to change something uh to change like a base layer of a protocol that's really really good um when you're building like infrastructure but really bad when there's money that needs to be stopped from flowing so I'm curious like how do you advise on the on the reactive side of things to set things up yeah it's that's the that's the balance so if you know if you look at

compare centralized Finance to decentralized finance the problems with the decentralized finance side that you just pointed out is slow reaction time you know it's up to governance to make the choice what if it's malicious governance that's like on there and you have to respond quickly and people don't participate maybe there's a flaw so there's the the reaction side of it and also the transparency of governance itself um you know can be can be an issue uh on the Senpai side is like now you have loss of control uh you know as the user um and you have uh you trust that the the developers the owners or the the custody uh you know the bank so to speak is going to make the right decisions on your behalf and you know they're uh you

know not transparent but you know you trust they are because of their reputation so it's there's good and bad on both sides um so we sit right in the middle uh with our approach you know we're objective and yeah we just we we tell the truth we are are trying to find the balance between C5 and D Phi uh you know so the tools do that to see what makes sense we're providing a method to react quickly while controlling it but also doing it in an objective Spirit of decentralization and provide transparency be a kind of a third party witness as so to speak or notary um for you know to help the even governance can make a decision um on whether to include

it so uh it's a bridge right in the middle to get to get the benefits of both sides hmm what what is this notary product you guys keep mentioning uh can you guess yeah we saw we soft launched it last really like last month and by soft launch we're just we're just approaching really our current clients right now so there are a couple of D5 protocols that are going to be launching in Jan Feb with it it's called serif which is serif dot Co actually and we've been we've been building this out for the last uh probably close to 12 months at this point and you know excited to finally so it's a So when you say it's a notary and I'm so it's basically a completely on-chain notary I would assume right so

it's a you're so you now introduce a third-party witness who like in an off chain world the a notary would uh give a third party witness to like recognize important events that's what a notary does so like a notary in the on-chain world would be someone who like recognizes the signing of important on-chain actions is that yeah I think it was a transactional level audit as well like you you're it's on chain it's not uh it's not a multi-sig signer for example like you said like five of seven signers like what if the on-chain action is to change it from you know five of eight signers and they upgrade you know the amount of signers there maybe they're that that actual function can be notarized by a trusted third party and that trusted third party can be

um you know any serif notary so it's a way to only pick um in advance like identify the functions like an emergency withdrawal uh say that you know we should never you know take all the money out of the Vault for whatever reason unless this happens so that's like a run book like an instant response Playbook that you you meet the expected uh logical conditions or business reasons um so you say okay this is like the you know the break glass situation where we would use it we're going to protect that function if it if it's ever executed then the notary gets alerted they look at the call data or they look at the reasons why and if it's meets you know okay this isn't like going to tornado cash it's not a hack

um you know it's it's approved on chain and then the uh it executes um you know just like it does a normal transaction and you're just this would be like uh the implementation would just be you add some lines of code to a Smart contract yep exactly yeah the technical term would be to add a modifier um to the you know just like we have um only you know non-reagency and uh safe math all of the these like libraries it's another contract you import and only owner or with serif pretty much and and then you I'm assuming you can Define things that you want to allow or not allow yep exactly interesting very cool um all right so Rob what so I wanna 10 minutes ago you were like you mentioned

Insurance you're like one of the one of the ways that folks have been uh unless there's anything else to add on Sarah but I assume I'm assuming we'll talk about it throughout the conversation but uh on the insurance side of things I feel like one I feel like we have not not I feel like we have not been able to achieve a big insurance company or protocol or fund and different people have tried to do insurance like Nexus Mutual tried to do this um like can you just tell me how insurance has gone in crypto and do you see Insurance being something that pops like on-chain Insurance being something that pops up in the next cycle or it's just too hard like what's your thesis on insurance uh I'm I'm bullish on the concept of insurance and I think we need a lot more at bats uh in the market to get to the

place where we need to be um it's not ever going to be something that halborn focuses on because you know 99 of the general web 2 security publicly traded markets is preventative security we focus on preventative security but when it comes to um you know like like we we definitely need to have that as part of the stack of part of a proper defense and depth strategy um but you know it's not not really going to be for us my take on it to China because I actually used to work at insurance company uh as a security architect a long time ago um insurance is you know it's all about uh risk uh again just like security and

actuaries they calculate what's the premium uh you know that we should provide to cover you know this this level risk whether it's a person or a contract and the risk is just like way too high right right now so the premiums don't make sense and the liquidity when back to the systematic impact of things when something bad happens it happens big and even the insurance providers just like we can't cover this much loss right now I just think that it you know we haven't been Diversified enough to see it and when when bad things happen the it happens to the insurance you know defy insurance providers as well and you know so then all right well let's increase

the premiums for that and then now it's like well the premium is too high now nobody wants to get it anymore and so it's like that's why we need again the higher level like the systematic approach like we need to like eliminate possible loss exposure per incident to make you know the insurance uh you know content contain the the blast radius when it does happen yeah do you see anyone working on insurance in the right way uh yeah yeah there's some good projects we have robbers hitting your head no and Stephen's saying yes so uh well they're working on it didn't say they're available the concepts great white paper now there's there's some there's some solutions there's like really two approaches for it one is like holding collateral you know aside for it and

then you know paying for that in reserves the other one is uh doing uh one of our clients uh fairside for example they're taking a different approach of having a way to really open a a dow a type of approach where people determine you know what is a fair uh you know coverage or not uh based on per incident and you know it's the loss you know is it fraud is it a private key exposure if this is a rug pull you know we you know should we provide you or not and let the people just kind of decide on that and what the premiums should be which is a pretty pretty a great you know kind of take on it yeah rob you agree with that I do I do yeah um

can we talk about bridges guys because my uh yeah yeah I just think that yeah I just think they need to be talked about because all right so flashback a year and a half and we were people were still asking the question like are we gonna live in maybe two years ago but like are we are we gonna are we gonna live in a monolithic chain world or like a multi-chain world and then one of the things that happened kicking off with like Solana summer and like all these L1 like the L1 Wars and then we got into 2022 and everyone's like oh okay like confirmed we will live in a multi-chain world and everyone's like great like we've got all these cool l1s that work and then the bridge hack started happening and everyone's like oh crap like there's a this like it's pretty

complex to let to build a multi-chain world so can one of you guys that like my five-year-old developer brain like can you try to explain can you explain just like why bridges are so tough to actually Implement yep two reasons and and why they're I'll start with why they're hacked if you were a hacker would you go and try to like pickpocket every single person and get a little bit of change or would you just go straight to the Vault and just take it all probably go to the Vault just just take it there right so that's one thing is like the uh the target the bridges you know most often they're implemented either with you know you know burning and mincing on each side or vaulting and holding it all in like a master you know Vault that you can go and take that out

so that's one huge Target for it uh for hackers and why are they hard to implement it's because uh these these protocols you know they're often in different languages and they don't really talk to each other there's not a standard to say if you're doing Solana to ethereum Salon is written in in Rust code and even uh ethereum is written in evm and with like solidity contracts to get compiled so how do you take those those two functionalities and connect them securely it's really hard to do in a decentralized way there's not many like really decentralized like Thor chain is one example it's the most complicated but awesome like if ridges I've seen before uh you know Chad did a

great job on on doing all of this building for it keeping it decentralized but now sometimes you'll have okay it's uh We've we've connected the two but there's a master key or like some bookkeeper or vault or Guardian you know various flavors and then that has a weakness and now you have a central source of of uh of like liquid liquidity is just going to be um you know stolen so uh it's just like escalating privileges you know we got like poly networkers that way and many others so it's really complicated to implement Logic on both sides of the bridge that uh are fully functional without creating gaps it's complexities enemy security you know it's a very uh common term here and bridges are complex and there's a

lot of value at Target so people spend a lot of time researching you know how to break them this is I'm probably going to embarrass myself with this question here so bear with me for bear with me here so my my understanding of a bridge so let's say I want to move eth so I want to move Bitcoin to Avalanche using the Avalanche bridge I'm going to put Bitcoin into a contract they're going to turn it into they're going to basically take that they're going to give me a one-to-one equivalent of like eight I don't know Bitcoin yeah I don't know what they call it though like a b t they call they have a different name for their Bitcoin it's a derivative yeah it's a derivative yeah but it's basically a synthetic one of those Bitcoin that now is able to operate on uh on the on the Avalanche Network and I

see the issue here which is like okay well you're leaving a bunch of Bitcoin in this contract and that's usually like the Honeypot my question again this might be really dumb is like I leave crypto in contracts all the time like I leave crypto in a contract on Ave or like I leave my like Ethan a metamask or I leave my like ethon compound and that doesn't get hacked so like why is this bridge why is that smart contract on a bridge such a hackable Zone because when you leave it there are you leaving you know millions and millions of dollars I don't know how rich you are but but that's the thing and it's more simple like if you're just sending it to a wallet or you know your own contract or your own like Ledger or something

Unchained it's you know transfer withdrawal send you know pretty simple functionality um with Bridges I'll use my favorite one the poly Network one that was that that was on there they probably network was 611 million dollars that um was stolen and it's there's uh there's so many functions in that to make it work and to you know to Mint the the tokens uh to update the the bridge admins or bookkeepers uh to send transactions with commands it'll it'll take a message and parse the message out and and you know say okay this is uh I don't speak your

language Solana so I'm going to send do like a text string a parse it and when it rides on the other side it'll be in a format that you know how to process so that's really like there's so many different like variations that people have tried and you know there's always unexpected flaws with that you know this one happens to be um you know a hash Collision so you know the same function uh that exists when one place collided with another one somebody figured it out and they you know pretty much escalated their privileges to become the bridge themselves which was novel I've never seen before so it's just new technology new vulnerabilities that uh and you know

I have high value at stake it's just I I will also say too like we're all used to working very fast in this space um ave's been around for what three four years now maybe a little bit longer um there's this concept called a you know uh security through obscurity like like just because it hasn't been hacked yet doesn't mean that it's capable of being hacked in the future there there still needs to be more time and and so on put into this so I mean I mean look like you say that your you know your funds are safe in Ave I mean I wouldn't call it a hack but it looks like someone exploited one of the you know situate you know one of the the vaults or so on on Ave and was able to take out what like 100 like

maybe like maybe like 500k or something like that yeah yeah so it's like there's still like we're still in the pioneering stages of all this and when code equals money and when you know your your money is theoretically locked up in these contracts they're only as you know the other thing that we say is like you're only as strong as your weakest line of code so all it takes is one upgrade and one and one systematic upgrade like an upgrade on Ave but then like that affects this other thing systematically that no one else has thought about that's actually the you know that that once again going full circle goes to the concept of systematic risk that actually is involved with having your money on of it and here and here's another thing too

um you know to touch on your example of like having a you know a Bitcoin and then a like a wrapped version or synthetic version of that so when you do this um the only way to redeem it or you know you're essentially making it an IOU saying like I'm gonna use this representation of this here you have you know essentially double the amount in two environments just you can't do something with with one on one side if something happens to that bridge and you can't chat you know cash in your IOU like then what you know you're stuck with a synthetic that's like you're worthless and on the other side it's just locked in the in the blockchain or or stolen and now it's it's either you

have double money or you have nothing so that that's where like the the synthetic part of the the world is just very very um risky and this we saw this again they talked about earlier the like the financial crisis uh back then you had complex Financial models like you know mortgage-backed Securities and cdos and you know synthetic assets like swaps and and options contracts and you had leverage you had volatile collateral with like you know loans uh that were being you know to high-risk people and you know and D5 you see that again we have complicated um Financial models you know with uh steak staking and and you know API you

have synthetic assets like wrapped assets and uh you know liquid staking ass assets you have leverage like even more ridiculous leverage than we've seen and way like higher apy expectations on that and when it all like unwinds when there's you know when there's an issue that all that over leveraged and people try to get out through the bridge or redeem it uh it just can lock up you have you have uh everybody's trying to rush for exit door at the same time it's like you know the window's like that small yeah and this is all I mean this has all happened in recent memory I mean with the FTX stuff what was it was it please don't quote me here but I believe it's something like so let Bitcoin or like something on the Bitcoin derivative on Solana

um you know completely de-pegged and was completely like you know really really worthless but then also when the Wormhole hack happened none of the ethereum derivatives on none of the synthetic ethereum that was sitting on the salon of blockchain was backed by anything in that moment as well so even in recent memory in recent history we see pretty large scale versions of it that the industry then comes in like it's then the centralized world that has to come in and like all right no actually here's all the ethereum back it's actually worth something now um the amount of liquidity is uh is you know small in comparison to things like I'm not uh so allegedly I don't know for

sure nobody knows for sure really like a gold for example trading gold like you know if you trade gold like GLD or something on the stock market and yeah you're supposed to own gold but you don't really own the gold and if everybody at once said I want my real gold I'm cashing in my GLD yo IOU is there enough gold in Fort Knox to like you know give that to everybody or is there more and can they control price with that you know by making it you know speculation you never know but um it's the same thing as doing it it's like you're you're hoping that there's enough you know collateral will available to provide in times of Crisis and that's what leads to the Constitution all right so let me give let me get back to this Paulie Network hack actually because I think it's um

so my understanding of it was you had the the eth cross chain these like two really high performance smart or I think you have the two two smart contracts one was like each cross chain manager and eth cross chain data the eth cross chain manager was an owner of eth cross chain data and therefore could execute these privileged functions inside of the eth Cross chain data I think I'm getting that right and then there was another issue which was um there's this field as like the method field yeah uh could basically it was it was set as um user defined so therefore it could be set at will um yep user input yeah user input of it's just like web applications if uh when you provide or taken user input you

have to make sure it's sanitize and you know is not for a code injection is a big thing in web 2 hacking or SQL injection you're inserting you know user is inputting SQL code where it shouldn't be to control the inside of the of the of the application that's that's what that method was there um the the user input method uh what happened was there was ethereum does um something called like hashing and it'll it'll hash uh a function call so what it does it just takes a small amount of data and they um the the hacker was able to find a collision um with that input to point it yeah to uh to that function that should have not

been able to be executed or accessed and that's what that um it was put con uh I think put Epoch con Pub bytes or whatever that was the name which then demands the attacker's public key to be registered as the keepers and that's right okay basically what I'm trying to get at here is less of like how did this poly Network hack happen but when I see this I'm like again it just feels like there's whack-a-mole and like one so one thing that's really cool is that defy has gone like okay all these C5 platforms are down and everyone's like you know like you know the narrative and even I say this is like well look what operated really well it's like it's defy went really well um and on The Leverage side of things

d5's got like there are two like on The Leverage side of things on the on the capital Markets Front d5's gone really well I know Robbie were mentioning Ave but like that's pretty miniscule problem that they had I'd say in comparison to some of these C5 platforms like the block buys and Celsius is um of the world but when I read about like Paulie and what happened here I'm like man they're just like an infinite number of ways that this stuff could go wrong so yes hypothetically I could move all of my Capital from if I'm a regular user from like blockified to Ave but there is no possible way if I'm a user to make sure that this

public key injection of code doesn't happen I'm not so I don't know just like that's why we're here for like try to find out you know it's like there is such new technology there's so many ways of doing it like we haven't found like the best practice like the the best Bridge standard you know for and their and their needs to their their needs to be a substantial so so like web 2 security regular cyber security just regular run the mill cyber security there are over 4 million unfilled positions around the world there is a drastic need for fantastic and just general cyber security practitioners in web 3 and in web 2. so like like like

like you have the bull market moment of everyone running fast but then the only real security practitioners are like checking on their smart contracts and that's it whereas what we just got done talking about is way more complex than one smart contract out it's going to get you so in when you go public when you're a public company and when you become public you have to go through all these like you can basically go through all of these um checks so like you have to get you have to register with the SEC like you have to you now have a security you have to get audited you have to report quarterly financials you have earnings you have to you have an S1 when you go public like all that kind of stuff right do you think that we live end up living in a world where once you're

tvl I know tvl is a bad metric but like once your tvl reaches 100 million you have to basically like you have to do a certain set of things or do you think this will basically be completely user defined where if I'm so like Ave and compound are competing Ave has all these basically Ave works with halborn Ave uses serif like all these things then like the user is just going to end up picking Ave how do you think this ends up looking um my personal opinion of the matter is that the three of us right now are Americans and I have this I I keep noticing that there's this huge tendency of us Americans to just think about you know America Centric um and when you have a D5 protocol that touches every aspect of the world like

it's going to be very very you know it is going to be a game of whack-a-mole of like all all of the different jurisdictions are going to have their different kind of regulations that they start throwing into the mix it's really just going to be on us as a community to kind of come together and create standards and if there is some sort of standardization and frankly like that tends to happen in the form of uh the market just working its way out and like we're still very you know it's like we're very early this is still early days in general and over the next decade hopefully the community has enough bruises on its face to realize that hey we should probably be asking this of a

D5 protocol we should probably be asking this and the more that we can come together to create standards together the less The Regulators are going to be able to kind of do do guess work like that um now that being said as an American I do actually hope that Regulators can kind of get their heads around some of this and pass some form of good regulation that being said I'm extremely reluctant like you know Steve and I you know we all deal with it all the time like they're just trying to wrap their heads around Bitcoin still so it's it's very it's very it's going to be very very difficult yeah I think uh that the the yeah the standards and regulations and and policies you know you think in this

three different things I think standards is going to be the best thing for code security uh in like a global uh perspective where you know you you have IEEE right now they make standards like everybody adopted a certain uh you know the way a 20 volt plug works or like the UPC barcode that you know Bluetooth versus HD DVD like which one becomes like the most used and people kind of gravitate towards uh so we could build defy standards and you know like opens up and it's a great company that made some like smart contract standards are used as templates and and built out and they've been vetted and they've been you know used and trusted and tested uh you know there could always be risks and

that as well in the future but uh when we when we have standards approach to security from that whole defense in depth again from the the code standards of the language the proper use the the the role-based access controls the way to separate you know maybe value at risk from you know user inputs and all the way out to proper uh you know proper distribution of the environment so controls around the uh the defy um composability so you know with with Ave like landing and borrowing if you know what are they relying are they Distributing like their oracles price feeds uh to be diverse enough so it can be controlled and manipulated by you

know one it's that's those are standard you know kind of like thought patterns and and code patterns and practices that are still kind of being defined because we're we're in the very beginning stages of this development you guys see a bunch of different languages and ecosystems um what is your take on solidity versus other languages I think it's it's uh oh yeah I think it's it's been successful because it's the community it's a very uh easy to to understand code there's tons of tools to support it and it's just grown because of like the the tools available to to learn and and to adopt it Robert you're gonna say that

just ultimately that you know we kind of we we admittedly so are typically reactive in that sense we let the market sort of decide what uh you know what what what smart contract language or coding is really taking off uh but for us we we saw you know we saw Russ really starting to take over a lot of the sort of emerging protocols as well um and so I mean without a doubt all the metrics will show you that solidity is still kind of here to stay in King now um but there's no reason why in the near future that you know can be rust or you know and funny enough uh you know Steve and I are tracking like governments around the world with like their cbdc

initiatives and we're seeing that a lot of that's being built in C plus plus so we'll we'll see you know we'll see kind of see um but we're but we're pretty clear on like we want to be able to still specialize and so there are plenty of protocols and languages that like The Entity of halborn like won't touch and like so we we just we just are like really important it's really important that we just focus and and focus on what we're best at yeah like ethereum like solidity took off because you can do uh evm in many different languages you know there's Viper there's Yule there's fe uh solidity just happens to be the one that

people gravitated towards because of the uh you know the the robust um you know tool set to do it and and it's hard to get started with development for this um you know when you when you're a coder you're coming in even if you're you know technical you go research things and you you know kind of start using you know things like remix and Brownie and so on and so on um it's it's a tough to get going uh but once you you learn it you don't you don't want to let go you want to keep on doing that because you're good at it and you understand it so I think that's just the one that's been kind of like led the race and is is pretty here to stay for for evm which actually we have Zion is an operating system that halborn made to

kind of solve that problem to like get people started with blockchain it's a free operating system that we you know we give it to our own employees to you know get ramped up pretty quick has all the tools all the Frameworks for rust and for golang and solidity and uh you know things like out of the box you don't have to worry about like figuring out and you know making the libraries work together so Zion z-i-iion it's like a Kali Linux for those security testers out there um it's a great great I use it every day we we released an episode with um Anatoly and uh Ben Springwood at uh at Solana last week um and obviously they've had a ton of success not building on uh uh with solidity and with Russ and stuff like

that do you think that there's too much momentum now behind solidity and too much like basically there's two approaches and like if you look at the two L ones that had really really big 20 21s it was salon and Avalanche and they took two really different approaches right which approach do you think like when we look back in five years I I'm assuming you work with either one or both of them so I'm not sure how much you can say but like when you when we look back in five years who do you think we will come out as having taken the better approach I I'll say I think you know with blockchain in general there's not you know you don't need to have only like one chain to rule them all there's a lot of purposes that you know one chain can be better than

the other like Solana is extremely fast it uses only rust and it doesn't have Smart contracts it has programs everything is compiled and is you know lives on chain there's not two layers like there's no consensus layer and contract layer it's all together in one and it's extremely fast and the rust is a fast language because you know you compile it and then you deploy it and that's not how uh you know solidity is done usually it's byte code and Avalanche has C chain and P chain and they have different things too as long as one change so you if you want something fast maybe for um let's just say like decentralized streaming a video and you hide throughput okay Salon is a great yo

chain for that if you want to do something for all right I want to use a nft Marketplace I want to like interact my front-end app with the easy to have new contract you know maybe Avalanche is better for that too because you can use pchain and C chain for it so I think there's there's a multi-purpose multi-chain world uh you know Bitcoin it has its own unique property of one trick pony transfer store value uh so I think they they both have a lot of potential we do work with both and um you know they're you know different tools for different jobs I want to get I want to get both your SS take on this next question there's a big uh convert there's a big conversation right now happening which is what's the best way to scale and I think the three ways that

people are talking about would be Roll-Ups um roll ups underneath second way would be Bridges between different L ones like we have a couple different l1s in the future and there are bridges between the different ecosystems and then uh and then the next way would be IBC and like app chains and what's going on with Cosmos and those are kind of the three places that like people are planting their flag maybe it's not like how do we scale but just like three different ways that this industry grows um Rob can I throw can I throw this one to you first of just like when you think about those three ways to grow the industry which one seems like the best option these days uh at this moment I mean we just got done talking about bridges and how how

absolutely frightened we are a security practitioners uh with them um so the systemic risk involved with Bridges um I think could actually lead to um more people losing money and therefore walking away from web3 in total so I don't think that inter chain you know like multi-chain or cross-chain bridges are going to be the way that we scale um in general scaling Solutions will help but also fundamentally creating layer ones from the ground up that interact with one another and fundamentally creating um you know new protocols that interact with one another uh will inevitably

succeed and that is why I'm certainly bullish on everything IBC and Cosmos uh that I keep on seeing um and and there's a lot of choice there as well so you know you can choose whether or not you implement Cosmos and smart contracts within your you know IBC chain and so on um but also like you know because of what we were just talking about with how ethereum has really taken over you know this this whole idea of decentralized applications right now this is why people keep on talking about uh you know Layer Two scaling Solutions and now we're starting to hear about layer three scaling Solutions and and so

on and I think it's going to keep getting meta in that sense but I also think that due to like just Moore's Law I I think we're in for a blockchain disruption in the next five years I think there's something that isn't out yet that no one's talking about yet that's probably just gonna supersede all this and take take the World by storm it's basically what I'm hoping for at this point so say more so say what you mean by that new technology that's not one of those three uh you know that can solve it in a better way for uh you know speed scalability yeah it's it's there you know you look at the trifecta uh I really like you know vitalik talked about that blockchain Trifecta Israel

you know try to try lamb much Trifecta it's the uh scalability centralization and security you know you kind of like trade Trade One versus the other depending on you know where where you fall with it um my take um you know on those three solutions uh I agree with Rob the bridge is probably like my least favorite I mean I say that uh you know I like them because they they do create a lot of business for Hal horn so they're great and that's that sense um but as far as like usability I like I really like um knowledge uh zero knowledge proofs zero non Roll-Ups and optimistic Roll-Ups I think like when you if you find a way to uh use like like you know lightning for Bitcoin or a

layer two that can take the octane off-chain computational uh you know resources and do it in a decentralized secure way to you know make validity proofs you can scale really well if that's done and because it's using cryptography which is the whole point of you know crypto is you know this is the crypto part um so you know cryptographic Assurance I think is always the most sound for everything that's why I fell in love with Bitcoin in the beginning uh but you know application uh specific blockchains like IP IBC what they're doing you know that's like it's a different approach they're they're essentially doing it at layer one the way ethereum does Smart contract composability you're making uh composable application specific like you

know layers in the blockchain stack you know so each part can be forked and improved and each part can do it without losing the compatibility uh so you know every it's it's microservices in a way for blockchains and like you're taking you're adding the Simplicity which is great for security you know this blockchain does only this you're not trying to like you know morph it into something more complicated to like interact and force interaction like like a bridge you're just saying okay you do this you do this and that's great now if there's something wrong with that it's your containing the blast radius again so you're doing this microservices way of it I think if you want to go the cryptographic route zero knowledge really like that Tech uh we see tons of emergence there application specific blockchain it's great but this speed

size of it I mean the whole reason why uh they're they're trying to do Layer Two anyways it's just like the execution speed right you know imagine playing a game like uh on ethereum with that layer two it's like swing your sword transaction Mining and it's like uh okay uh and I have to pay like five dollars every time I make an action you need like a a layer two you need like the Ronin Network right do that yeah so wait so you guys are both you guys both think that something is coming in five years and a new blockchain or something five years from now that will be better than eth Solana Avalanche Cosmos all that stuff yeah you you both agree better at what um just uh I mean I think is more secure

it solves the trilemma better than anyone else has been able to I think that um yeah I think that I think there will be either an evolution of something that exists now into you know like ethereum just went to proof of stake you know for whatever whether you view that as an improvement or not Improvement um but you know they are changing so it could be one of the existing ones that have uh emerged and been uh morphed into something more uh much better and improved yeah I don't know if you guys can answer this and this is one obviously I don't even have to say this at this point but this is not Financial advice how do you if you like that's a thesis I haven't really heard many other folks say on the show usually people are

like oh I love Cosmos they're like oh like I'm all in on eth like how do you guys allocate your personal Capital if the thesis is that what the space currently looks like today like none of these are going to be the long-term Solutions personal capital in crypto uh I I like Bitcoin so and Monero uh that's what happens when you see uh too much uh too many hacks and I was gonna say when you sit in our seats and you see kind of like the really ugly version of everything and just really like how risky things are and then there's like the war rooms that we get pulled into that no one else ever like really hears about or knows about where I learned about this that's why like on a personal

level and even like halborn treasury related like like we don't we don't touch anything like we are exceptionally risk-averse in that sense but you know on a personal level Steve and I are certainly both Bitcoin Maxis in that sense were you always like that or did did working closely in D5 make you make you not want to touch default I I interact with it a bunch I'm a big nft collector with ethereum and you know I interact with D5 plenty but I'm not going to say that it's like a sizable amount of my uh you know my personal you know savings yeah I know I I personally I am there's there's like some some token utility thing it's just like a real use for it I think yeah I'll be I'll be bullish on it but I what I'm not bullish on is when

you do anything that goes against the here like the principles of why blockchain exists like self-custody self access like I I personally don't like to put it into like a central like entities like what's what's the point of even doing it you know D5 if you take the d out yeah but I also take it so that's that's definitely that perspective and then again not Financial advice but like my personal perspective on investing in the space will always be like is there a real business model is there a real way for this thing to actually make money and if it's just a speculative asset pump it's like there's no way I'm touching it so you guys don't own much eth you're all in on bitcoin

changes a lot no I say all in you know I get comic books too I got gold real gold like a dragon yeah people are very very Diversified but as far as as far as halborn is concerned we don't touch any of that yeah well yeah either I would say there's a there's defy and then there's like tier one D5 which is like maker of a compound uniswap like the the D5 from like the 2016-2017 era do you think like well you touched though like if you want to get a loan on your eth or something and you don't want to sell your youth like will you touch a novice or compound or like if you want to trade like will you touch uniswap or or you're staying away

we uh we we do some some I like uniswap I think it's probably the best smart contract can defy that that well it changed the game for for doing things for for swapping but um yeah it depends like are you investing in in uh the idea the hype the protocol um you know do you believe in that I think there's a lot of great uh like I'm not saying investing I'm not saying like go buying office token or something like will you go take a loan like will you like let's say let's say you have a hundred I like I would liquidate more on Ave like I would be the Liquidator yeah I want to do something yeah but we we interact I mean let me be clear we both Steve and I personally as well as halborn we do interact with

ethereum D5 Solana D5 on a constant basis you know because sometimes we're paid in like the usdch you know something or sometimes we'll get paid in a token something and we'll go and we'll swap it um for sure um but you know so we're interacting where it's important that we are users of the technology that were that we're uh trying to understand you know the best way to break something is to understand how to build it and take it apart right so we we do that pretty consist consistently um so so yeah I used to like that for me I was doing a lot of like liquidity providing like you know putting in pool Pairs and pools and doing that I think that's uh one of the the more safer ways

with the exposing yourself to opportunity and you know liquidity mining uh you know I don't know that some of that can be it's like what is uh your how many layers deep are you in access to your money that's like what always scares me is like if it takes more like four transactions to recover the funds then okay I'm In Too Deep we were doing I was doing some real d-gen stuff in 2021 it was like it'd go like on this Avalanche protocol and it was like all right you got to move it here to here here to here Bridge back over to eth I'm like oh my God it's taking me like six days now yeah yeah that that's the scary part of it all and it's like you know when you look at and when you know what what you know about security

and you look at how many layers like if you're doing uh investment on a like a cross chain liquid staking something and you know it's like okay I have my eth and then I put the Ethan a contract and it mints a wrapped teeth and I take the wrapped teeth and I put it in a bridge Vault and that'll make a wrapped Soul eat on one side and then I take that and I put it in a D5 protocol to do some yield farming to on like whatever like you know new G5 things like all right now I'm like I'm a six contract vulnerabilities possibilities and a bridge between like my my core redeemable asset now you know so it's like that's that's pretty dangerous you lined me up nicely Stephen for the last topic I want to talk about which is

liquid staking um I would have to assume you guys do not are not fans of liquid staking based on everything that we talked about but if I'm right about that can give him Stephen tell me about your thoughts on liquids taking let's start there oh yeah yeah uh well you know I I believe in you know like like the true value of things and you're when you do liquid staking you're essentially like kind of cheating away right you have what is proof of stake uh supposed to be it's like you you lock your value in the network to help consensus and that's your sacrifice for the network is like I will you know put this in here and I'll stake it and I won't take it out and that's gonna like

what what makes me validate the network just like Bitcoins that you're providing your electricity power when you do liquid staking you're like you're bypassing that you know your that sacrifice doesn't exist anymore you're like okay well I'll put it there but hey guess what I'll still go you know use this you know synthetic acid to do whatever I want with it so uh yeah I'm not a fan of liquid staking I think that it creates when it happens for too long for too much it creates issues like we've seen with uh just recently with some some platforms Rob what do you think I have some less yeah I mean Steve Steve puts it way more eloquently than I would uh but you know it's it's it's liquid saken is kind of a grift in that

sense like it's really like not supposed to be the case that you're allowed to do that now because it's code and because any of us have access to write some lines of code and create a synthetic version of this asset that's staked um you know that capability will always be there uh but it's you know it's a grift you're not supposed to be able to do that so do you put liquid do you put um they're like two camps of liquid staking there's like the I would say like the more centralized providers of liquid staking and then there's like the more decentralized providers of liquid staking do you put both of those in the same bucket like you don't like Lido for example set centralized liquid staking would be

do you trust the the people to be honest with you or is it going to be uh you know what we're witnessing now with like you know sfx um if they're true to like their Redemption they'll say hey you're liquid's taking your your your uh you know eth is is safe with us it's one to one we're not going to do anything with it and then they start doing a bunch of stuff with it that's that's the risk of centralized I think that's you know it can be issue and also the amount of liquidity too because you can do this in like traditional financial markets is like have yeah that's all that's all they do right yeah yeah have your money in in the bank and then take a line of credit against the cash that you have in the bank to use for things and you have

like a margin ratio you have like a certain thing and and that's you know people do a lot a lot I I do that and you but you're trusting in the large uh you know liquidity um of you know the US dollar or whatever like you know you know Fiat um and it's audited and regulated a lot more and it happened is a lot slower you know and it's not the vulnerabilities are not within the code the vulnerabilities come within the economy or government policy so it's a bit there's it's a bit more nuance and I would say like it's safer um so with uh you know if you can put controls around liquid staking to make it you know more safe I would say you

know dare I say like to regulate a little bit more um you know but then you're not like decentralized anymore so things just we have seen like the uh very bad use of um non-regulation uh just here recently with us with sfx coming here so that's what gets you in trouble yeah anything else that we miss guys uh not I think so yeah I can talk all night if you want yeah yeah I hope Stephen I hope people are watching on YouTube so they can see your insane set up yeah oh yeah yeah if you guys are watching here yeah this is how I diversify my investment dude how did you uh yeah you

were you were a guitarist in a band right and then you became this like CTO of a cyber security company was that were you were you uh were those did those happen at the same time or you were a uh like how did you learn how to code like this when you were also a guitarist in a band I think it's like the one side of the brain you know music to me I listen to music I I enjoy it but it's like a math problem in a way yeah this is like crazy time signatures and I like complicated stuff and I look at audio you know so engineering you know I actually I play guitar but um I like producing I like creating music is more uh like you know recording and making making songs from it uh and I think that it's still in front of a

computer doing uh doing stuff with an application comes down to it um but how I got into it was uh yeah just um I suck at Sports and I wanted to play guitar to be cool in elementary school there you go Steve's being super humble all right so he used to be signed the Capital Records he's opened up for for a ton of major bands like Metallica and Bon Jovi he's written songs for Britney Spears he's written songs for Lil Wayne and while he was doing that he decided 500 000. that Britney Spear song yeah yeah yeah and then that's my old band uh five million streams wow I actually have nine so I'm waiting to get the double

Platinum yeah um so yeah I mean Steve and I that's why we got along so well is I'm a way less accomplished musician and like we just look at start you know we just look at building up the haliborne like building like the best rock band or the best uh you know album possible it's creative all day every day we have new challenges every day and it's it's just you know it's it's a lot of fun working on a project right now uh you know called Dead code having released things yet but the long-term thing is to make it an immersive uh kind of web3 integrated uh music project so I'll leave it at that for now here we go all right well I'm excited to see it anyways uh Stephen and

Rob this was awesome I appreciate you guys coming on I know uh Santi who wasn't able to join this night talk about security side of things all the time and we're like if only we could have some Security Experts on the show so this was it uh super helpful I learned a time and yeah I appreciate you guys coming on great thanks for having us thanks for having us appreciate it of course guys [Music]