How FTX Taught a Crypto Lawyer Not to Make Crypto Her Identity

Transcript

One of the things that I really appreciate about crypto is watching it grow. You have mixed feelings to use a parent metaphor. You know, I get sad when I look at my kids and they're getting so big, but I'm happy to have helped them grow and I'm excited for the next stage of their growth. And there will be times when I'm just very aggravated with them. Like I when my daughter becomes a teenager, I'm stealing myself for that, right? That's exactly how I feel about crypto. There are times when I become very aggravated with crypto holistically or parts of it.

Um, but much like my parenthood experience, it is an evolution. Hi all, and welcome to Dex in the City, where the wallets are cold and the takes are hot. Before we get going, remember we're lawyers, but we're not your lawyers. Nothing you hear on Dex in the City is legal or financial advice, and it doesn't create an attorney client relationship. For the fine print, check unchaincrypto.com. We'll be back in a minute after we hear from our wonderful sponsors. This episode is brought to you by 1-in Aqua, the shared liquidity layer from 1 in. Back multiple liquidity positions with one wallet balance and keep your tokens in your wallet until a swap fills. See how it works at 1in.com/aqua.

Not listening to Bits and Bips yet? It's our weekly crypto and macro market show with Rahm Alawalia, Austin Campbell, and Chris Perkins. Search Bits and Bips and subscribe. And we're back. First, we have Jesse, web 3 prosecutor turned web 3 protector at Rivet Capital and V from the SEC to web 3. And I'm your host, KK Catherine, fluent in Tradfi and conversing in deep tech at Chainlink Labs. So before we begin, we have some news about the show. This will be the final episode of Dex in the City on Unchained.

Let's just take a moment, get these feelings out. Like, so we started this pod to amplify women's voices in crypto because this space needs more voices, different perspectives, and all kinds of diversity. And I'm talking age, race, socioeconomic, gender, etc. We are trying to build a new better financial system for everyone. So, we need everyone's input. We know here that crypto isn't just crypto, bros. I mean, we are obviously the living proof and we need to promote that. We are proud of the conversations that we've had here over the course of the past year. I

can't believe it's been a year and more than a year, I think. And we are really grateful to everyone who listened and became part of the show. Uh, and we did not want to spend our last episode pretending it was an ordinary week and covering crypto news even though as like every week there's lots to talk about. And you know, we're going to do a different type of episode today. one we hope that you'll send to anyone struggling in this space or considering this space or even thriving in this space, particularly women. We're going to talk about what worked for us in our careers in maledominated industries in navigating ethical conundrums in

volatile markets. So enjoy. Let's kick things off with a very easy question. Um, V, Jesse, what ex the one piece of advice and and I will say I'm sure I know that V and Jesse do this because I do this all the time. We talk to people all the time that want to get into crypto, lawyers, students, AI builders. No, just kidding. What is the piece of advice that you always give people who wants to get into the space like, you know, I want to, oh, I love crypto. I want a job in crypto.

What do you tell them? What do you do? Uh, I start with a bit of a buckle up and I'll dive in there a little bit. But first, I just want to say that I appreciate you guys a lot and I appreciate the listeners here. Unfortunately, I don't think the situation for women in crypto has gotten any better this year despite all the work and effort we have put in to get more voices out there. So, I hope that others and we can continue to do that because although we're not on this pod, we are still, as far as I know with you guys, we're still going to be working in the space because we really do believe

in it. But to make it what we all envision it to be, and I don't want to speak for everybody, but I think so. We need to understand that like we're not a homogeneous group and we have different perspectives and different desires. And you can see it like I know we're not going to get into specifics, but you can see it with like the recent bill that did not pass. Like we need to understand how to talk to all contingencies because we want all of them to be involved here and hopefully this space will continue to grow. So I'm sure we'll go more into our fields, but um to get back to your actual question. So my advice that I would give somebody women or otherwise

now is very different than what I would give them 10 years ago when um I was still a newbie in the space right now. I don't think you should ever consider getting into crypto as getting into crypto because if the vision that we all have and the future that I sort of foresee um comes because we're already seeing it, it's everything. And one of the gifts that crypto has given me is that I have become a lawyer that has to understand at least at some level so many different regulators, so many different markets, so many different con considerations associated with money

movement. And that is very very different than a lot of other lawyers that are super focused and super knowledgeable on this part of securities law or this part of the CFTC or just the EU or just this part. And as a crypto lawyer, whatever that really means these days, like you need to know how to think about all of those components because especially as you look at what is being built right now, it's usually like chains for everything or products for everything. It's not someone that just wants to build something to trade, you know, spot crypto. It's someone who wants that plus maybe perpetuals, plus maybe tokens in a different country, plus maybe even prediction markets these

days. So be aware that like you might not be able to become an expert on everything, but you should be at least really knowledgeable on all of it and use all the tools and resources and people around you to help you understand the other parts of it. And especially for lawyers, don't get your news from Twitter and don't your regulatory information from Twitter. like great advice to the source and you need to really understand like what a release says, what a law says. And if you love Twitter, I'm not here to hate on it, although I have probably a little bit in prior episodes. Like, you can use it as

like just a dig in yourself because you're a lawyer for a reason. You don't want to like give up the brain that you spent a lot of money on or worked really hard for or a combination of both to a social media platform that you don't control the algorithm. >> To be fair, I do tell people get on Twitter and curate your list. I mean, I tell everyone that, but um I I always say first of all, ignore the algorithm and only follow these like the very well-curated like my Twitter feed. the people that I'm following is very carefully curated of real thought leaders. But yes, Jesse, I totally agree.

>> Twitter on. You don't have to though. Like if you curate it, it can help you. But I rarely look at Twitter. >> Yeah, >> I go sometimes and I support you guys and I find good stuff on there. I'm not minimizing it. And when I look at it, I'm largely looking for AI ideas these days. But the truth is is like you might be able to start there, but never consider your research done there. >> Yeah, agreed. >> Yeah. I So, you know, I I always tell people like on my team that if you're in crypto, you actually have to be on Twitter or >> Yeah, that's so it's like the opposite advice. So, I agree with you, right?

that should not be like the end all be all of of like your sources of knowledge. But I think it is really hard to keep up with what is going on just because this industry moves so quickly and there's always something happening and a lot of times X is the first place you'll hear about it and learn about it. I think you're actually at a huge disadvantage if you are not on X. So maybe that's I know you disagree and maybe that's controversial, but like if I hired a lawyer on my team or like a policy person, I would say you can lurk if you want. You don't need to be active, but I want you to know what's going on. And I think X is a great source for that. But yes, curate obviously so much noise.

>> It's one It is one source of really good real time information, but it is also a hellscape of >> your mental health is all of misinformation. >> Yeah. starting out and you don't know where to go. I completely appreciate what you're saying, but there are enough tools these days that help you understand like a lot of information in a much more objective manner that for me is just a decision that I had to make that I rarely go on, but um I've obviously been in this space a long time and I know what I focus on.

>> Yeah. >> V, aside from making your team join Twitter or X, sorry, it will always be Twitter. I'm sorry. It's just no. What is the other piece of advice that you give people? So, you know, I would say like I would say do what I did, right? If you're thinking about joining crypto, like enter it because there's like a specific problem, something that you care about that you want to help solve, right? So, like the term crypto, like I Jesse, it doesn't really mean anything like specific more. It's so broad now.

them wanting to work in crypto doesn't really tell you that much, right? Like think about, you know, what are you interested in? Are you interested in financial access or privacy or improving payments or like new forms of governance or something, right? So, start with a problem, learn the technology really well, learn how the technology can help you like address that problem or improve it, right? So for me um you know I came to crypto through the work that I had done on investigations when I was an attorney in the enforcement division at the SEC right? So I came into crypto because I thought that um improving market structure and financial systems could be like a really good use of the

technology. Um, and so like I think that has really helped me to keep perspective like why am I still here after all of these years and you know things are always so volatile and I'm sure we've all had times when we were like what is hap like what are we doing here right but if you if you come into crypto because there's something you want to work on and a problem you care about solving I really do think it helps you keep perspective like through the ups and downs so that that's the advice I would give if you're thinking about joining the industry.

I love that and I think you're right because that keeps your passion aligned with the industry and I mean that's how I found my way here too after working on so many investigations in the inside of Tradfi and the more I learned about the technology the more I believe that it could improve you know market structure and the inside of Tradfi and that was a very compelling like case for me intellectually love that uh okay so a change on this and I'll kick us off is now what now I'm going to be honest when I talk to women I don't give them women's specific advice. I mean that's just ridiculous. I just give them advice as a human being on how to enter crypto.

However, over the years I have talked to and mentored women in this space and I have occasionally found reason to give them different advice. So a spin on my first question and I'll kick us off is what would you tell women either entering crypto or struggling in crypto like what is your kind of and maybe not just women maybe anybody else who doesn't necessarily fit the mold of the majority of the you know participants in this space I think one of the things that I'll mention is you have to get comfortable with feeling other and I mentioned this because I remember vividly at the Eve Wealth Summit, which

is a great conference. Shout out, there was a man there that was like, "This feels weird to be the only guy in the room." And I was like, "What? What are you talking?" >> Still all complimenting his outfit. >> I know. And everyone he's like, "Everyone's complimenting my outfit." And I was like, "Oh, well, at least you're in a conference where you're the only man in the room and everyone's being nice to you." Because that's not always how it works when it's reversed. So you have to be comfortable with being other or being uncomfortable at times. Um the other thing is and this is actually a hot take and not everybody's going to agree with this and I was I will say a lot of senior women have different mechanisms of managing or messaging being a mother for example

like when I was at a law firm and I was pregnant I would never tell my partners that I was going to an OB appointment. I would always say I have a meeting because I didn't want to call attention to being basically a mother pregnant. I didn't want to take away focus from my work. Whereas other women fundamentally disagree. They say we you should shout from the rooftops that you are a mother. So there there is there are different schools of thoughts and I think there's different ways of thinking about this. But my advice is you have to be better. And when I'm talking about better, I'm not talking intellectually. I mean, obviously, everyone, every ambitious person is always striving to be better intellectually, male or female, but I feel like I am not only the adult in the

room because I'm legal, I'm also the adult in the room because I'm a woman. And in college, I was such a goody two shoes because I wanted to run for office. And I never, you know, smoked anything. Never, never have never done a drug cuz I felt like as a woman to run for office, you needed to be immaculate. Like no skeletons. Now, obviously, I'm not running for office, guys, okay? But I feel like as a woman in crypto, as a woman in a male-dominated industry, you have to be better. You have to be kind of the adult in the room. And that's a hot take. So guys, feel free to disagree with me. What would you tell women?

>> I so I would not disagree with that. I think for crypto specifically like people will make assumptions about you as a woman no matter what role you're in, right? Whether it's like legal or BD or marketing or whatever. Like you need to learn the technology. That's kind of the bottom line. People will make assumptions about you. Um so it's really important. Like I'm not saying you need to learn how to code, right? if you're in a non-engineering role, but you really need to learn the tech and how the product works and you know who has control, how the assets move, how the smart contracts operate, where all the risks are, right? So, you know, obviously crypto and tech in general is still extremely

male-dominated, right? So, I think knowing the substance, knowing the tech really well is really going to help you gain that credibility and frankly just like allow you to do your job better. So, I know that's like generic advice, but I really do think in crypto it matters more than in other industries or >> and it matters more as female. I agree with that. You might you might not need to learn to code, but you should sit with your smart contract engineers and understand what they're doing and understand what all of this means. I to I thousand% agree as a more effective lawyer, but also as a as a venol.

Jesse, I feel like Jesse's about to blow us up the >> No, I go for it. actually am just feeling like so I was >> looking at your face >> right now. I just like can't believe how much I needed this today. It's been a week um over here. But mine is not just women focused either and not just crypto but definitely tech. Um I have been in other maledominated workplaces. I feel like I'm sort of used to it. I worked with law enforcement. You can imagine what that was like. Um, but my advice for any beginner in crypto and largely women or people that don't feel like they fit is don't lose yourself.

A lot of my takes are contrarian in the crypto space. I talk a lot about elicit finance. I talk a lot about protecting victims, which everyone, I think, thinks about, but it's not at the foremost of their brain all the time. And for me, that has been my guiding principle in the work that I do, trying to support vulnerable people. And it's why I think crypto can be so special for those vulnerable people. Um, that I have just like kept that as the directing force for me in everything that I do. And yeah, I think I've pissed a lot of people off with it. And I think that I have takes that maybe don't get me

invited into every room or, you know, make me work with different people. And that is fine because what I have found in crypto is that for everyone you disagree with or for everyone that you think like oh they're not trying to build something safe, there are so many people who are doing such amazing things and using their brains in such creative ways that I just feel lucky to be a part of it and be able to help them. And I have met my best friend in crypto. I've met some of my other closest friends which include the two of you guys and I have sort of found a purpose in it and I didn't find it by agreeing with

everybody. I found it by learning as much as I can sticking to what I felt like was true to me and leaning in there. And there is space for you in tech and crypto if you want to be there. Now is a struggle. There's a lot of journaling and meditating just like there would be in any job. But I do really feel like you can find it there and take the time to do that and it's work but take the time. I mean I remember V. I met you when you first joined Worldcoin.

>> Oh, that's true. connected us and KK like I always thought she was awesome and too cool for me and we would run into each other at different things but it wasn't until I moved to Chicago that I made her hang out with me. >> I have never been too cool for anyone. Jesse, >> I know, right? Who knew? >> Um, and I just feel like it can be such a special place, but you have to have the courage to be whoever you are. And um, that has been something I'm fighting for in my own personal life in every way. So, I had the foundation to be able to do that. And it's not easy, but any, you know, if I can do it, I don't freaking know what I'm doing. So,

>> can I just say that like any like every time there's someone very loud and it's usually the same like five people who would disagree with us like on, you know, social media, we'll get like five or 10 messages privately saying we thought what you wrote was really interesting or we agree with you or whatever it is. And so, you know, the loudest people aren't always like the, you know, the prevailing view, right? And I think like Jesse related to that, you know, we've talked about this so much and I think it's actually one of the reasons we wanted to do this podcast, right? Is like I think crypto can have uh a very sort of conformist culture and I get the reason for that, right? I think it was because for so long it was

like us against the world and and we didn't even know if we would survive as an industry for many years, right? So I think this kind of solidarity developed and it's easy to get kind of caught up in that. But I agree with you, right? Like don't afraid to be intellectually independent and to have a point of view that might be different or unpopular, right? This is I mean this is still a really really new industry. Everyone is still trying to figure it out. Um no one has all the answers and and there are genuinely hard hard questions that we're dealing with, right? So I think even more than immature industries, crypto as a nent industry really does benefit from debate and disagreement and like

different points of view. So >> don't doubt yourself on that. >> Yeah. Yeah. I love that advice. And the other thing I'll say that needs to come with this is have a tough skin. Like I think I've thrived as a GC in this space because I have a tough skin. Like nothing is really going to upset me. You know, I've been yelled at. I've made been at the recipient of some questionable comments. And I'm not talking about my bosses, okay? To be clear. Um I mean, one of my favorites the other day was a troll on Twitter told me to go get a pumpkin spice latte, which was hilarious.

>> I think that was fairly sexist, by the way. I mean, I'll never forget when >> someone I worked not with, but kind of in the same sphere asked me why I worked because my husband's a hitter, which like I don't think a man has ever been asked that question. I We could all go on and on and on with those types of anecdotes. That is a show for another time. A show that will happen. And by show, I mean drinks. So, if you want to you want to get drinks with us, we'll tell you about that. That's not airing. But um the point is I think you have to realize at the end of the day a lot of those comments, a lot of those scenarios, it's not about you. It's about exactly as Jesse and V mentioned, it's about kind of standing your ground

for a multitude of reasons. Sometimes it's because you're appropriately advocating for your position or your client or your company or your interpretation. Sometimes it's disagreeing. Sometimes it's a lack of maturity that exists within certain pockets of this industry. Although we've come a long way and you know crypto like any nent fast growing innovative exciting um high talent high ambition industry is not for the faint of heart.

Okay like end of story. So, on that note, we are going to take a break for our last set of ads ever, and we'll be back >> in a minute. >> $540 million. That's how much concentrated liquidity sat idle in a given week in the first half of this year. About 30% of the DeFi TVL if you're wondering. That's according to Dune Research Commissioned by 1 in. But there's a solution. 1-in Aqua is the new shared liquidity platform. It lets LPS back multiple positions with the same token balance and keep their tokens in their wallet till a swap comes. Why does that help? Because the LPS don't have to split their tokens across positions.

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And we are back on our with our final episode of Decks in the City, sharing our war stories and advice for anybody who wants to get into crypto. So here's one that I love. Okay, I think we were all in this industry in 2022, 2023. It was a very challenging time and you know many people have been in the industry to see the ups and downs well before that. But that one was that one was rough. Okay guys, that was rough. Uh the the best part about being on the older end of crypto at the ripe age of 42 was that I actually remember as an adult the financial crisis. So, I was able to keep perspective. But my next question to be and Jesse and then I'll answer is what

do you do in periods of extreme volatility, extraordinarily rough periods? And I'm not just talking the market, but what do you do personally? Like if your company's going through a bad stretch or if you're going through a bad stretch on a bad day, how do you keep on marching? Because the nature of our jobs is I don't know about you guys, I've literally never taken a sick day in my entire life. Actually, false. I had appendicitis and I couldn't physically work once in >> failed on me. >> Yeah. Okay. I mean, I I bailed on going on a boat an event on a boat when I had active appendicitis with Jesse. But that's that's when I'll >> You're forgiven.

>> Yeah. But we don't take sick days. We don't take personal days. What do you guys do in the rough seas? Jesse, why don't you kick us off? >> Jesse, you start. >> Yeah, >> you guys know because I call you. Uh because what I have found, especially in crypto, is that most people don't get it unless you're in it, just probably like a lot of people feel in different industries. So, having that community to be like, "What the Now that we're leaving, I can curse as much as I really want to leave if I want to. Like, what the is happening?" and like I is this pain worth it and like why do I feel this way? And so that's like basic B um advice, but ones that I really

truly take, I have like three or four y'all on speed dial and there's a lot of that. Um I am not married and don't have kids as you might tell when V and KK talk about their families. And so for me, like finding things outside of this space is very important to me. Um, I love a Lego set. I love a dinosaur. I love playing guitar. for someone who doesn't have kids, >> you know. Um, and part of the way I found my way into AI and like the fusion of crypto and AI was during my free

time, I decided to spend a lot of time building with AI and trying to figure out how it works and really look under the hood. And what I realized is like a lot of my skills thinking through crypto legal issues apply to how you think through the technical issues of AI. Not like the specific laws, but just how you think about it. And so being able to step away also gave me a gift of finding a new space that I really enjoyed. And in a way I think it would be super useful to have those two sets of knowledge. So like don't be afraid to touch grass in whatever way that that means for you. It could be just like a different part of your computer or it could be um you know going outside with

a friend or whatever your life choices are. The truth is is like it's not going to be easy. But I was also in a super tough job dealing with very serious criminals before this. So, just remember to keep life and the world in perspective because there's a lot of people out there going through a lot of things and that doesn't mean you shouldn't feel your feels. You know, I do. But like just step away from crypto or from whatever you're working on just like once in a while. And this is part of the reason why Twitter is not my place because for me it puts me in a hole. And I am someone that will be in a hole about something and I just need to

find places that are more productive for me. And for me that was YouTube videos about how to use claw a few years ago. And so you'll find that for you. And I know that um you guys have amazing hobbies too. And I we need to get to KK's amazing skills. V, you go next. >> So, I think kind of so first of all, I agree with you, right? Like I think my number one advice piece of advice would be to just stay connected to people who like could not care less about crypto, right? So, we talk about this on the show sometimes, but like maybe that's your spouse or um your friends outside of crypto, right? I just started uh

learning maong, so like maybe it's your weekly maong group or whatever, right? like someone who you know maybe can listen to like you talk about the industry or like commiserate with you but can also be like do you realize what you sound like like get a grip right like I think having having someone like that in your life is actually really important for keeping perspective. The other thing I would say is like I think one of the biggest lessons for me has been like you can you can care a lot about this work without letting it become your whole identity. Right? I think we would all agree that like working in this industry can be really allconsuming.

Um in part because of what I mentioned earlier, right? It just felt like for years like we really had to band together like we were it was existential for us. We were fighting for the industry to survive. And so um I think that was part of it. The other part of it I think too is that you know so many of us left just kind of conventional but very stable careers >> to join crypto, right? So like defending the industry became tied up in like defending our own life choices. And so it's, you know, like I think that's why it sort of becomes like a part of your identity, but that's that's like not a healthy thing, right? So I'll give you I'll give you a personal example. I don't know if I've ever told you guys this. I've never really talked to anyone about this, but um you know, years ago

when when FTX happened, like it it hit me really hard. Like I remember a day after a day or two after it collapsed, I had like a previously scheduled meeting with a Senate office and you know, I arrived like prepared with all my usual talking points about, you know, clear rules and responsible regulation and yada yada. Um, and partway through >> yada yada. >> Yeah. Part partway through I became so emotional that I actually had to stop. And the staffers were very kind about it and they like gave me a moment and a tissue. And honestly, I don't think I've ever told anyone this story before. It was like my lobbyist is maybe the only

one who knows. And it was really awkward but like ended up being a real wakeup call for me, right? Like looking back, I think at the time um like I see that I had attached a part of my identity to the belief that this industry was worth defending. And so when something like FTX happened, right, even though like it had nothing to do with me or what I was working on at the time, like it felt like a personal betrayal almost. So I think the lesson the lesson for that is like you have to be able to separate the potential of the technology and the reasons that you believe in it from the individual actions of people who do like bad things

in the industry, right? Like and you can learn from those failures and and still continue building like the stuff that you think should exist. So I'm sure you guys have reflected on this too. Um, but I think it is connected to the point about like you need to have a life outside of crypto. It will it does give you perspective really and like will remind you why you're here um when stuff like that happens. >> Yes. Yes. And I like that's so true. And I like Jesse's point about the fact that touching grass doesn't necessarily need to be going out in nature. Although one of my biggest coping mechanisms is getting outside. Like I'm the queen of the walk and talk. Like if we're catching up, it's going to be on the old

school telephone because I'm going to be power walking around my neighborhood to get fresh air and sunshine and look at the grass. That's a big coping mechanism for me. But V, you're right. Like know that that and and it's funny that advice that's actually not the norm in crypto because there are people that their entire lives are crypto. Their entire social circle is crypto. There are Bitcoin themed weddings like a lot of them for example and that works for those people. That's not the advice that I would give because I think that that makes it very hard. It makes it much harder in periods of volatility. And also, we have to remember this is our life, but this still makes up a very small portion of the world of financial services and the broader world. Okay?

So, we're one piece of this and that's okay. We don't need to take over the whole world. We're not trying to be AI. Um, >> but if you find your perk are in crypto, it's also pretty great. So like, >> yeah, >> that you just need to have Yes. >> someone that understands you. >> Yeah. >> And things that let you >> remember when you need to who you are, right? >> I totally agree. And then it's funny because we both give that advice where we're like have friends outside of crypto. But then again, my other best advice is exactly what Jesse said is find your people in crypto. I have those people. I have a community. The GC community is one of the things that has

kept me in this space. How collaborative it is and how many good people there are as lawyers in crypto who are intellectually honest and are here for kind of I every time I say this I feel like I'm on the bachelor here for the right reasons, right? And I have several chats where all we do is talk And when I'm when I say that, I mean like intellectually talk like this is ridiculous. This person's wrong. I can't believe they're saying that. Blah blah blah blah, you know, and >> like the nerdiest talking >> the nerdiest talk there is. Okay.

And but it's really therapeutic because it's really you're aligned with these individuals and when something bad happens, you're aligned and you can call them when your project is struggling and you're not talking to them about the project and about the situation. You're just saying, "I'm going through a really tough time." And then they have their own war story. So there's something innately engaging about that level of collaboration. Uh so find your people and you know find your hobbies. I agree. I have many. Um including one is baking I'll admit which is a woman thing. Okay guys. Okay. Just kidding. It's not actually. But I'm just going to put that out there. Um there's there's a lot

there. But I think to get through periods of volatility you have to have friends. You have to know that there's life after all of this as we've all seen again and again in the cycles and this is not the last down cycle that we're going to experience. So I have one last question and then I want us all to shout out an amazing female mentor or female uh like authored piece of thought leadership etc etc. But this is kind of a fun one. I want the two of you to tell our listeners your years in crypto and the three of us have had like the three of us together have many years in crypto because obviously when be was at the SEC even before you went full-time you're working

on crypto when Jesse was at the Department of Justice for years before she went to a VC she was working in crypto same with me at a law firm you know I was representing crypto market participants and all of that work so we have a lot of years uh in all those years What was your most like random fun bizarre crypto moment? And okay, I have a couple. One, I just have to shout out the night where Paris blockchain the VIP dinner, they rented out the entirety of Versailles. That was >> You're right.

>> That was pretty insane. And I don't actually think that that would have happened if I had stayed at a law firm. So, I'm I'm gonna shout that out. That was pretty memorable. I can't wait to go back to Versailles as a tourist when I'm like 65 years old and remember that night. >> It'll be too crowded. >> Yeah. I would say the other moment I have is just the total and utter sensory overload that I had when I went to my first ever crypto conference and it was just, you know, and back in the day that was people were running around dressed in fairy costumes like there was no one wearing suits. Um, and then my other favorite story is I was a partner at King and Spalding. It is a very fancy white shoe big law firm and it is one of

the more conservative law firms because it's a southern law firm. Like it's Atlanta headquartered although they have offices everywhere and law firm partners are fancy, okay? They stay in five-star hotels. They fly business class. So the king is building partner retreat is very oo la guys, okay? and it suits at the partner retreat etc. So I went to the King and Spalding partner retreat and then I think it was something like a month later I started at Maple and went to Maples's offsite which was in a house rented in Fort Lauderdale.

Now, we did have a separate mini house for the the two women that worked at Maple at the time, and it was actually an incredibly well-run, wellorganized off-site. Shout out to Sid and Joe. But the the jarring experience going from the King and Spalding partner retreat to a giant and it was like this 80s mansion that they rented in Fort Lauderdale. Like there was fur on the floor and it it was just an very interesting experience. And you know me as GC I was like we're staying in a house altogether like what are people drinking? Like you know all the risk factors were running through my head. Um so I think I had to tell that story because it's also an example of how you have to shift your mindset when you come into crypto from

tradi or from a law firm or from other pastures. Well, if you come from government, you'll think it's really she >> you'll have a reverse you have a reverse experience >> for your flight to go on a work trip. What are you talking about? >> Yeah. Yeah. I love it. And okay, this doesn't have to be a positive story. It can also be a negative story. I mean, I have those, too. My other favorite anecdote is the fact that my husband now has to tell me every time we go to a a elementary parent thing, he's like, "Can you not stand in the corner and talk to the dads about crypto?" And I'm like, it's not me. They come and find me and ask me questions. Anyway, okay. Who's next? B, you look like you're ready.

>> Oh my gosh. Okay. I I I think most I mean I have stories definitely from the different conferences and like crypto events over the years. I'm not going to share them. >> I was just about to say I can see in your head that you're not sharing the GC. >> No, I will. Yeah. But I, you know, one of the funniest things that happen, like when you're a GC in crypto, you often get very uh interesting questions from your >> Oh god. Oh god. >> And like every time I play um two truths in a lie, people always think this is the lie, but actually it's not. So, one of my team members, I think he was like a developer, an engineer, um he actually emailed me one day or maybe he slapped

me and said, "There's this like event in North Korea for crypto deaths. Can I is it okay if I go?" So, that's my anecdote. >> This is what I'm a cryptog. What what be doesn't say is that I've been at multiple gatherings with GCs where we play this game where it's like what's the most outrageous question you've received from a client or >> and I'm gonna say them here. >> There are some doozies. That's all I'm going to say.

>> There are some doozies. >> That's actually a good one. Be >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, aside from the fact that I'm sure we've all, well, I I and I know other female GCs or like women in crypto have been asked if they're an escort at an event, whether they're paid to be at the event, why they're there, assuming they work for someone. I have so many of those stories. Yeah. Um, I think like a weird one that felt like sort of surreal was when I was in the government, I was prosecuting crypto cases as we've talked about and like literally nobody cared about the cases. Like we had to go beg the FBI in whatever 201617 or something

to go take our cases that involved terrorists using Bitcoin. And we were like, you don't have to do any work. we just like really want you know your help wherever you can give it and you know it wasn't huge amounts for their cases but it was significant enough and for me like I felt like it was important enough we pushed it we had a group of people that really believed in the tech but honestly nobody cared in the government and I really felt like people should care and it was part of the reason why I wanted to leave and go work in the space was because I was like if we can make this space safer like we can do this it's going to be Great. And then I remember when people started learning

about terrorists using crypto and it was like I had I did not receive more reachouts in any of my time in crypto than about this one case where I could not get the FBI involved at all when I was actually involved with it. So to me just like the changing times and being able to see like how much we can grow and age and the industry can change in such a short period of time. And in some ways you look back 10 whatever number of years we've all been in it later and you're like have we really done anything? But then when you really step back and start from the beginning and think like where we were, it is truly amazing what has happened and it's in a

very different way than like AI growth or something. And maybe you guys will disagree, but you know the crypto technology it's obviously improved, but it all starts from the technology that we had when Bitcoin was created. You know, you can add Ethereum and smart contracts and like a lot of variety to it, but the concept is blockchain, right? And tokenization and tokens moving in a way that maybe the governments can't control and some freedom in that way, right? AI on the other hand is like tech is changing all the time. It's hard to keep track, etc.

Instead, it has been like a bullheaded push by all the people on this call, all the people listening, um, to really show the world that despite everything you may read on this day, despite this FTX thing that you talked about that happened here, despite this person that you met that like wants to go to North Korea and doesn't quite understand that, like this is a cool thing that needs to be adopted and it's happening. I mean, like, you don't have to look at everything in the space to understand that this is happening. Like, real institutions that laughed us all out, whether it be the FBI or a bank or whatever, they are now the ones that are

curious about it or at least leaning in. >> Yeah. Love that. Love that. It's a positive way to start wrapping us up. >> And look, we don't have crypto good news this week. and a it's always really hard to find crypto good news. Not that it's not happening, but that's why we keep defaulting to things like new dinosaurs. Uh but I want to end on a positive note. I want us all to take a minute to shout out um either, you know, something a female podcast that our listeners can go listen to or a really incredible book or a mentor because there's a lot of incredible women in this space doing

fantastic things. And I don't want to pretend or or say that there aren't that of those women kind of paving the way for all of us. And obviously this goes to every kind of aspect of diversity within crypto. So I'll kick this off and then I want to pass it over. First a quick shout out also to all of the men who are fighting the good fight as behalf of like supporting um recruiting, retaining women in their organizations. Um putting women on panels. We love you guys. You know, Ary Redboard, queen of the allies. Love you Arie. Ben Sherwin who recruited me to chain link who is the ultimate girl dad and you know love

the girl dads. Okay. Um the women that embraced me. >> Kyle Armstrong. >> Kyle Armstrong. I mean yes. Like >> there's so many good ones. So many good >> and so many so many men who like were so supportive of this podcast. Honestly agree. >> Exactly. All of you. And there's a lot of you. And you know, we can't name all of you, but I don't want to ever pretend that we are a bunch of manhaters here. I mean, that would be ridiculous. Frankly, we shouldn't be working in crypto if that's the case. But, um, you know, shout out to the women who embraced me with open arms when I first joined this space. Like the Rebecca Reddigs and Kathy Yunes and Lindsay Haswell, incredible people, brilliant. Um, I

really wanted to shout out one of my female mentors who is actually not in crypto but is doing some really innovative things is Kathy Clay at S&P. Um, I worked with her at SIBO and she's not only brilliant, she's just a boss. Like male or female, she's just a boss. like the best kind of woman or man is you don't see their gender because you're just so blown away by their brilliance and their energy and their ambition. But Kathy makes a point of mentoring and finding time for me because she sees value in my insights.

And I think that's what's more important. You know, I'm not going to mentor somebody just because they're a woman. Like that's ridiculous. I'm gonna mentor a smart, ambitious woman because I want her in this space. I selfishly want all good, smart, ambitious, ethical people in this space. And maybe I'll give you an extra five minutes if you're a woman, especially if you want to talk retention or uh you know, kind of managing work life balance or all of those fun things. But there are so many incredible female leaders in this space.

And if you're listening and you're in marketing or PR, put give show them to the press and put them on the panels. Okay, guys. Like, there we go. Uh, who's next? >> Yeah, I didn't clear throwing out names, but know that there are a lot of amazing women that I really, really respect, both named by KK, both sharing right now in this pod, and many, many others. and I I won't unnecessarily drop their name. Um, and so I agree with everything you said there. I also like my mentors were largely at least from the beginning of my career at the DOJ. Um, and there's

been a lot of changes in government. Um, and I don't want to get political at the end of our show, but what I will say is like there are amazing people working tirelessly and really, really hard at the DOJ, at other agencies as well to keep us safe and both financially, but also bodily safe from national security threats, things like that. And it's easy to judge from the outside, but that is like a really hard job. And um I worked with a lot of amazing people, let alone women there. So just give a pause before you go and attack a civil servant or someone that is trying to follow their

their view of justice. Um so that's my perspective. Although I do think that everyone in government needs to work outside of government and vice versa because there's no way to fully understand one without the other. I'm gonna give like a very different recommendation which flows into AI um because I do listen to a lot of podcasts and I think it's important to have female voices out there in whatever medium you listen to and for me I unfortunately am a bit podcast obsessed. There is one that is beginning to get a bit more traction. It's called How I AI and it is a woman giving very very practical somewhat technical sometimes you can skip over those episodes tips on

how to use different AI tools and for me it's been super useful and I've sent it to people that are interested and are willing to like spend time really diving technical like if you just want to learn quickly and know how to use Muse or something like that like don't use this But if you want to know how to set up your systems so that it works for you, not just in a professional capacity, but she does a lot of episodes with like people that are trying to use it personally, too. I find her incredibly clear. And going back to Twitter, you can follow her on Twitter, too. And she has tips there. So, um, I just I think it's important. I could promote women

all day. Um, but that's one I really like. And then just you guys like it's you know not always easy to be alive right now andor to work in crypto all the time especially with the ups and downs and the markets and the really emotional state that like we go through because this means so much to us and I call you guys a lot and our chat involves a lot of like deep thinking about legal issues but also how we should go touch grass together. So thank you for that. So, a lot of therapy in that chat.

>> Oh, yeah. And on this podcast today. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. >> I love that. >> B bring us. >> Okay. So, yeah. I I was telling you guys before this like I am not a big podcast listener, but I actually did think of one that I've been listening to more that I really like. It's not a crypto podcast. It's called Women in Tech and the host is Espri D'vorah. So, they talk about um like tech and AI. I think occasionally they touch on crypto, but what's cool about it is that it's also about like career, like career and founder advice.

>> So, I think that's really cool. Um, outside of that, I mean, the the people that you named KK were also like I don't I don't know how I would have like gotten off the ground when I first started in crypto without like those women like being so supportive and like introducing me to people and and just helping me to get a lay of the land. Like I >> and men too like >> Yeah, for sure. >> Greg Exathales, Marco Santo, I love you. You know, shout out. >> With credits of people we love >> like scroll. No, because then we would forget someone.

>> Yeah. It's like in your thank you speech like when you win the Oscar. Um and I I agree with you guys like you need a support group in order to sur survive in this industry. And um I'll just say, you know, this podcast has given me that. Like you two are two of the smartest, like highest integrity, funnest women to think out loud with every week. And you guys have no idea how much this has meant to me. So, thank you for that. And I will miss it.

>> Oh, I love it. That's so sad. But we're still gonna hang out. you listeners will just miss us hanging out. But I don't want to end on a sad note. I want to end on a happy note. One of the things that I really appreciate about crypto is watching it grow. You have mixed feelings to use a parent metaphor. You know, I get sad when I look at my kids and they're getting so big, but I'm happy to have helped them grow and I'm excited for the next stage of their growth. And there will be times when I'm just very aggravated with them. Like I when my daughter becomes a teenager, I'm

stealing myself for that, right? That's exactly how I feel about crypto. There are times when I become very aggravated with crypto holistically or parts of it. Um, but much like my parenthood experience, it is an evolution and I think being in this space and being able to contribute to this growth, especially on the policy front, you guys, I mean, and you two have also been so impactful on the policy front and to stand up and say this is an industry that isn't all crypto bros and this is an industry that on some level appreciates diversity and diverse voices, needs to learn a a little bit more about how to showcase those and and increasingly learn from

kind of the the beautiful rainbow of the people in this space. But I was very happy to be a part of that vocal dialogue for a year and I am really proud of our conversations and our analysis. Um, and I am glad it's kind of going to live forever on the internet. Never say never. I mean, I'm sure that could be taken out of context, but I'm really happy to have shared this journey with you and I want to shout out Unchained for giving us a home for the past year. So, on that note, signing off from Dex in the City. We will not see you next time on Unchained.

Hey, hey hey.