How to find your Ikigai with David Marlow

Transcript

foreign [Music] ation on the podcast today I've got David Marlow who is the ICA guy um ikigai is this idea of finding what you're good at what you love what the world needs what you can be paid for at the center of the Venn diagram of those four things is your Ika guy and when I when I tweeted that I wanted to do an episode on ikigai David the top recommended guest in order to go into it and um I think from listening to this episode you'll see why David is a coach and a content creator around the concept of ikigai and he has a uh experience as

a nationally recognized leader in personal and corporate Transformations that's been a 30-year career served and Senior in a leadership and executive roles and has spearheaded company-wide Transformations at three Fortune 500 companies he's helped hundreds of individuals find fulfillment in their lives careers and products and he has been using ikigai as a way of doing it so I'm really excited to have him on the podcast because uh his experience and insights have made him a pretty sought after keynote speaker and so the fact that he's willing to talk to the web 3 Community about what these insights that he has garnered over his third of your career are and how it can be applied to a remote work dial-centric environment

like the web 3 ecosystem I think is is is really interesting so uh David I just find to be this very empathetic articulate speaker about how to build team culture and how to find your purpose and how and then from there how to build enough trust to help your team find their purpose help your team find their API and so yeah this is a fun fun episode for getting into ikigai and building team culture and I think that you're gonna enjoy it without further Ado I give you David Marlow Valley Dao is an open Global Collective working to finance and democratize the governance of synthetic bio to protect the future of our planet research and progress into synthetic biology is critically constrained by the

world of nation-state regulations and bureaucracy from middlemen but the potential that synthetic biology has for the world is massive it can produce a world in total harmony with nature we can grow stuff using cells like software it's awesome and the best part is we no longer have to pull carbon out of the ground to grow and maintain civilization don't you think we should be funding this Valley Dow does and that's what they're here to do to try and make the solar Punk World of Tomorrow a reality today so join Valley Dao right now and save the planet at valleydow.bio hey David how's it going awesome it's a great day today yeah same uh let's Dive Right In The Deep End what is ikigai so ikigai uh you you may hear a number of definitions of it the

definition that that I encourage people and invite people to understand is it is living out your essence and your purpose in harmony with whatever you do so the literal definition of ikigai the word it's a Japanese combination word that means life purpose or reason for being and then I've I've broadened it to include that sentence because it makes uh it makes it clear that it's not just your career it's every aspect of your life in living and living in harmony with who you really are and what you're really all about yeah I have here in my notes it's what brings you Joy and inspires you to get out of bed every day are there any Western misconceptions about ikigai that people get wrong uh yes so

um you'll if you if you're Googling guy you get that definition that you just uh just shared and you'll also probably see a Venn diagram I call it the van Garden uh it's uh it's it's not a bad thing but it's not ikigai uh you'll see that it's what you love what you're good at what the world needs and what someone's willing to pay for and many people see that as Iggy guy itself um and while that's a good thing uh it's very career Centric and that's that's kind of the western adaptation of it uh when ikigai is really about everything that you do in all aspects of your life and the things you enjoy and the things that bring you Joy and the things that you do for for others as well so uh when

I always say purpose over profession because your your jobs come and go I mean especially right now we may be facing a recession or something like that and if if you're focused on your job in your career and that becomes your identity what happens when that goes away and I've experienced that myself many many times in my life so thankfully I don't I don't see my job or my career as as me because my jobs careers companies have all disappeared right out from underneath me a few times yeah there's something to be said well first actually let me let me start with the Venn diagram so if you if you Google uh ikigai then you see a diagram that has four circles that all overlap with each

other it's what you love what the world needs what you're good at and what you can be paid for it in the center of all of those four circles where they overlap it says hiki guy and and so I've always found that that visual is a is actually really useful for me in thinking about the work that I want to do in creating more regenerative digital Frontier uh which is what I think the world needs whereas what I'm good at is software engineering and I guess becoming good at a podcast that hosting podcast I don't know we'll see um and and so again the center of that is is is is ikigai but what I'm hearing from you is that that's kind of like a western adaptation that's uh got a little bit more pull in the career Direction because of the Western

influence uh did I did I play that back for you in a in a way that's correct or is that true reductionist no that's actually well said and uh and it's a helpful thing it's I don't want to disparage it in the sense that it's uh it's a bad thing I use it in my coaching um used it a lot with people because careers are important we have to make a living it's what we spend a lot of our time doing and just the um just the process you use right there where you were kind of going through it and what what you can add and the value you can bring I mean those are those are good Reflections the thing that I would I would encourage people to do is just go beyond that don't stop there keep going because it's more than that and

um I'll share real quick my my career uh has been I was a disc jockey when I was 16 years old I was in commercial radio you if you can believe that at 16 I was a sergeant in the United States Marine Corps I was an engineer in two different disciplines I've been executive and uh transformation leader and eighth grade girls basketball coach all those things I'm able to live out my ikigai in each and every one of those because I understand at my core there's there those are just expressions of my ik guy of my purpose and I can do that in many many ways I do it as a grandfather I have four wonderful grandchildren that I

love spending time with and I can live out my ikigai with them as well or running or uh for those watching I've got a coffee sure I love coffee and coffee is an expression of my ikigai so it's so it's all that Venn diagram and that's what I would encourage people to think about yeah I'm interested you know with the background of your career and having it being so varied from being in the armed forces to being a coach to doing many other things um it's just interesting to think about how your your guy can uh evolve over time and and you know which which sort of parts of your Eco guy what what you

love will change over time what the world needs will change over time and what you can be paid for uh can be can be uh can change over time but uh you know it feels like what you're good at I feel I I feel like that's something that is is something that you control uh and you can invest in the skills to to sort of like build that muscle um so some things will be dictated to you by the world and some things will be more intrinsic to to to you and um I think that's really empowering to think about when I think about uh just you know feeling like I'm in the driver's seat even if it's an illusion to me gives me some level of comfort yeah and you really are I mean that's

that's just it it's um it's not as important uh how how you express it as as living honestly to it and so there's lots of different ways and you can't really go wrong it's not like well I picked the wrong career right like this it's you can you can be in the right career and not living into your true self you could be in the wrong career and living in your true selfish yeah it's more about how you uh you respond to that yeah very free yes yeah well I'm curious uh you know in in you're doing this work how do you uh how do you help your clients figure out their values or find their ikigai and

and what are your mechanisms for for untangling some of the situations that that people will get into with respect to your coaching work yeah so um one thing that I do is introduce the idea of of uh because because people do latch on to that that Venn diagram and uh we we learned to schema right I mean that's just the way our brains work a lot of times so if you can match up with someone where they're at and then change it a little bit it makes it easier to to adapt so I create a three Circle then which is one Circle West but starting with with the idea of purpose your essence and then in harmony with whatever ever you're doing and so the

first thing that that I encourage people to think about is is developing what I call an icky verse so writing down the things that you value the action verbs that that speak to you so for me for example I love to I love to empower encourage people for example um in my icky verse is encourage Empower and enable people to be all they were meant to be and that encourage word if you go deeper into it for uh there's a there's a synonym for that called in spirit which means to bring to life and so for me I love to encourage people not in the hey good job way to go pat on the back kind of encourage it but that enabling them to bring to life what they

were meant to be doing and and who they are and the skills that they have and the things that they can do and so um having that gives you something to work from and begin to experiment and think about you know how can I how can I apply that in the works that I'm doing or the time that I spend with my friends or my my kids or the writing that I do or all any aspect of life I encourage my clients to come up with an Inky verse that they can been you know share with other people because you can enlist support um from other people when you can when you can kind of describe your purpose so it's kind of like figuring out the

language of your purpose and in some ways surrounding yourself with people who who support support that purpose through reflection self-analysis resources um but just surrounding yourself with with resources that help you find that and maybe like iterating over time um I might be adding a little bit more than what you said but that's kind of what comes up for me No actually that's that's spot on it and I love the iteration part because that's doing things and trying it out and and getting that support from others is how you're going to refine that over time uh for example I thought for a long time that that my real real gift in areas of Interest was in like process Improvement

things but that was where I was working and that was kind of what I was doing there's an element of that in the my ikigai but it was way beyond that and so by by trying that and seeing that that gave me an insight into what I liked about that what I was good at and what connected to my you know to really to my heart um and there's an element of that that I bring into just coaching and other things like that but that's not like process Improvement is not my iked guy it can be like I said a uh an expression of it that's not my gift I didn't know that until I started branching into other things and trying things out I

think it's fun to think about you know maybe it's a software engineer in me who just likes better abstractions but if you as a coach are helping people find their ikigai um and you have your own ikigai in in in so far that you specialize in a certain part of that training this sort of mathematic uh recursiveness there is is kind of interesting interesting to me but um what other things have you learned from helping people find find their ikigai what are the most common patterns and and um you know how do you unwind them yeah so to your to your comment just a moment I have at times described uh what I do as like each guy Inception right like the like the geeky guy within

you know within an ikigaya um yeah the the way that I I help people is is first of all to get them to understand that that you don't have to find your ikigai it's about uncovering it ikigai is there the clues are there the you you've lived it and understood it I mean when you're when you're a kid you're probably all in on your icky guy and then life happens right and life kind of covers it a little bit and then disappointments and pressures and the default path of life and then even well-meaning family or friends start to kind of cover it up and our process is really about uncovering it and it's and it's there and you can't miss it because it's you it's there

um so if you think about it instead of finding it uncovering that's a that's a big leap forward in terms of uh the awareness that opens the door to living out your ikigai yeah I imagine there's all sorts of learned patterns in sort of like covering up um your passions and what you want um I don't know maybe this is just me projecting my my past career and I worked in Corporate America in a world in which I didn't feel very engaged that I felt like in order to make a buck I needed to focus on what I could pay for and what the world needed or what I perceived the world needed not what I loved and and um and and so unwinding that alerting that and refining that passion and iterating

towards more of the center of the guy I think is is maybe a pattern for a lot of people who are who are going from just finding work and making a paycheck to finding work and purpose at the same time yeah yeah I mean there's there's a reality just to some of that right I mean you've got a you you've got to start somewhere and not every every job is going to be that you know the ultimate ultimate ige guy experience I look at it a lot like um like the 80 20 principle right so if we we look at that uh and and 80 is maybe in our out of our ikigai space our 20 that's where we're we're really in that uh when you can when you can even add one percent which

you can make that 21.79 every every one percent in your in your ikigai space is 16x of value in terms of enjoyment actual value that you're delivering all that so it's not it's not even like you got to get a to a hundred percent to see a big difference in your life it's just making the that small transition out of the I call it the waste or the or the you know non-value-add portion of of a job and getting more into the other space and uh one of the things that I like about having icky verse and and I've had a number of clients where they've they've done this and I actually just worked with a with a whole company uh the entire leadership team of a big multinational company and gave them

their icky verse they started being able to have the kind of conversations that enabled them to say well this is really where I where I get jazzed and this isn't what I get jazzed and then somebody can say well you know what I've been looking for an opportunity to grow a little bit in that space I'd be happy to take that on or maybe you can take some of this and supporting one another and establishing that kind of going from a language of default you know goals and meetings and emails and all to the language of purpose like what do you want to be doing more of it how could I help you with that and fostering that kind of dialogue doing that even even in jobs that you wouldn't think are ikigayish jobs right can allow for more and more of that 20 to grow and your day

to be filled with a greater connection to uh to who you really are and so this exercise that you did with them did you say it's called Uh icky verse got it and so that's that's sort of like a mapping exercise that you as a coach run with your clients in order to help them find either as an individual or as a team um Orient them towards towards their Eco guy right right and just uh and it's a working it's a working verse it's just meant to um like they want to share with you is is is what I called my icky guy initially and I refined it over time but I always share that one because that's that's what most people are going to start with that understanding and uh again it's one of those things where you

you start with that and you get a little better at it you get a little better understanding you refine it over time um it facilitates different conversations so as an example when uh when my corporate career ended uh I had a lot of people uh you know talk to me and support me and encourage me and one of the things I said was you know I think I may look into into coaching in their immediate reaction was you know if you're a coach there's like a million life coaches you know what you can't be a coach that wouldn't be you know they pooped the whole idea and so I quit saying that and I started saying my EQ verse which I had should have thought of to begin with and when I say well I encourage Empower and enable people to be all they were

meant to be they're like ah you know what you should be account because then they're looking at a different lens right then it's then they're connecting to who I am Knowing Me Knowing the impact you can have and I'm certainly way more than than a coach and I don't mean to to to pigeonhole that as much as give that example of dialogue that it creates an opportunity to talk um there was a one of the one of the senior leaders in this company I won't say their name uh shared that that they were really wanting to uh Express empathy you know and and be empathetic to other people that was part of their driver and then they laughed

and said anybody that knows me knows I have like zero empathy which I thought was fascinating that that there they want that so then that Fosters the conversation you know how how can you grow in that space I mean if that's where your heart is at but your skill set isn't there how can you grow in that space and then how can I as your friend or your boss in this case support you in that right some formal training or some opportunities and um this this guy was uh was very sincere and I appreciated his openness to admit his own in his mind shortcoming but it when you're when you're honest about that and when you name something now we've got something to work with and we

can make those changes or make those additions or find Space to uh to live that out in your your job if right I imagine there's a certain amount of just psychological safety or honesty that you have to have with the team to work through in in order to find these things because I've been on teams where the politics are just so wound around mistrust and disengagement where you you can't even really even get to the starting line with figuring out some of these issues and and um you know I'm wondering if that's a something that you've seen in B like how do you unwind that uh maybe it's easier to have a coach you know someone who can kind of sort through uh uh sort through

all of that kind of stuff but I'm wondering if that's been an observation for you and if so how have you how have you dealt with it oh yeah so in uh my 30 plus years in Corporate America I never experienced on psychologically unsafe and uh yeah um yeah you have to create that environment of trust and it does help you know if you have a coach obviously that's that's one level of relationship and um but establishing that that trust um I know for teams that I took over I would I would often the the kinds of jobs that I had were usually teams that were in trouble or companies that were

in trouble and they needed to transform and and um the the thing that you don't do when going into those kind of roles is okay you guys are messed up and I'm here to straighten you out that's just yeah I never that's full of products like a good way to put the cards up right there yeah right um so establishing trust though I mean that is uh that is a key in getting the I like the um uh the four four kinds of truss one is obviously Integrity you know like I could leave my wallet on the desk and now you're not gonna steal it but it's beyond that kind of Integrity personal Integrity like an integrated self um confidence showing confidence that you know what you're doing so like if

I'm leading a team for example I want to make sure that they know I know what I'm doing I'm not going to lead them off the edge of a cliff right and that what's you know what's my reason for doing this what what am I about and then you know what are the results that I've gotten and establishing that with them so that now they've got some some barrier for trust and then uh looking for opportunities right away to say what I'm going to do and then do what I say even little things um to get that level of trust and when you're doing that in an environment then you can start to have those kinds of conversations uh that go go deeper and go beyond the uh the oh highly Fund performance reviews and kpi discussions

and all of those you go way past that to much deeper uh deeper levels of empowerment and if you do that then you can have the ikigai kind of conversation so you said um I was just trying to play that back I was really just writing down some notes and you said there's four different types of trusts the first is integrity sorry what were the other three just wanted to provide a summary for the audience competence intent and then results Integrity competence intents and results um yeah I'm interested in I mean you know you and I both have experience in corporate environments um I I didn't last that long in in the corporate environment before I got into startups and one of the things that's one of the things that I've

I've sort of noticed in for the for this audience you know a lot of us work remote and um I I work with a team that is is on six different continents and uh we mostly spend time together on Zoom calls and uh it's a remote first work environment and you know we were doing it even before covet where it became more of an ore and so I've noticed that there is like time zone and cultural barriers um in that that because you're not in a room together there's a different way of of building trust in a remote first work environment and I think that a lot of our audience here is is probably remote first and um no it just knowing that Integrity competence

intents and results are are sort of like the ways that you build trust um is kind of empowering for me to think about how can we get to that starting line of finding our our ICA guy in a remote remote working environment and it's gonna be different than the dysfunction in a remote work environment with a bunch of gen Z people or Millennials this can be different than uh the Boomers and Gen X and Millennials hat in a corporate environment so yeah I don't know if you have any response to that but that's my Meandering through through your thought space there yeah I love the connection and that um that is I think one of the powers of of that level of trust and and when you can when you can find ways to do that because you just you don't have the

other things like being present uh with one another there's there's a certain connection you can make that you can't make remotely so you gotta you've gotta overcome that with other areas of trust building and and that's where yes those four areas of trust like really do strengthen that and allow for the dialogue and open the doors for those deeper conversations that build an even deeper trust it becomes a self-perpetuating like a little virtuous cycle of of trust building connection trust building and connection yeah now I love the connection no pun intended I love that you made that connection to the to the remote work

yeah yeah well just trying to help the audience make that make that connection and some of these teams uh I'm wondering if you see them in sort of like a vicious cycle with declining trust um and and how much of your work is is sort of reversing that vicious cycle where there's increased trust as people are finding their hiki guy in and how much of it maybe actually this is a way of framing the question if if that's a way that you can think about it how much of it is momentum based uh how much of the momentum is self-perpetuating in a trust building or or trust declining uh environment for for these teams yeah so

um I'll give you a an example for a team that I had that was um uh when when I took over this job as as their their manager if you will um uh people advise me I guess that they said this team they're they're they're awful they're not gonna they don't work very hard they're unsuccessful they had a very bad reputation and I I'm never a fan of that right I always think everybody has full potential and who knows what leadership style they've been under and and so forth and I I went to them and found it just initially they were just there's a lot of noise right and so I I talk about the three invitations of ikigai one is to get the noise level down

um that's almost always the the first step in taking over a team or working on your ikigai or anything to to make a change because uh these people were so busy getting beat up for not doing their job that they weren't doing able to do their job and then they were getting beat up again for nothing yeah vicious cycle yeah as an example I had um I had one woman come to me and I hadn't even met her yet so this is her boss and this is her first encounter with her boss she comes into my office and she doesn't say hello she doesn't say welcome she says tell me you're taking this audit thing away from me they're like wow I gotta find out what this audit thing is because you're somebody who you know your first

impression is to tell me that so this must be really important to you and it was a an internal audit thing that we did over um this they did password uh password access and and Mainframe uh area access rack F I don't know if you familiar with that but um and so I said well tell me about it and so she would spend nine months doing this annual review of people's access and get yelled at the whole time right just that's an annual review that it takes nine months to complete wow that sounds like a really good use of time yes so we we sat down and just started breaking out why does it take so long and what are the elements of this and I

I challenge the team to think let's let's um let's cut this in half just the first year I mean let's let's see what we can do and part of it was just the response time and I could go into all the details but the bottom line was the first year we got it down to three months so it took three months instead of six and the second year we got it down to three weeks and the third year she turned it over to somebody else and so here was one of my best employees she she ended up being being like a like a director at the company and things like that and so very talented person that was spending all our time in a job that wasn't really producing a whole lot of value and getting yelled at it's like oh my gosh talk about not living your icky guy and

so investing some time and understanding what that was what are the causes of that how can we get that off your plate now I've got a now I've got an employee who's very skilled and a really hard working person and a established a level of trust with her and now she's part of my team to reinvest in attacking the next thing and the next thing we just kept reinvesting that into making that team uh better and a better place to work and by the time I finished my time with that team they were probably my favorite group of people I've ever worked with and again I had people we don't go there they're they're awful they'll be terrible to work with they don't work hard all this which wasn't any remotely through yeah

I love that story and um you know it causes me to reflect back on um some of my career experiences and primarily the challenge for me has been uh I've been a software engineer for most of my career and uh I know that early on in a recent Venture I uh would just go straight into the tech and I was rage code through all these different problems but as a team started forming around me I realized that I was sort of skipping the team culture and the team skills and the psychological safety and um in programming that and just programming the technology and so one of the things that that led me to realize is that the order of operations is is people then profits or sorry it's people

than products than profits and and in what I heard in your story of going straight to the audit instead of working on the people in the culture and the Cadence and the trust was was like again skipping around the people into the job that's being done first and having to unwind that and to build the culture and the trust in the personal development and the ikigai of all the people in order to get to the um to the work there so that that's a pattern that I've I've realized in my career as as someone who's a technologist and uh it sounds so obvious that I hate to even have to say it out loud but leading people is way different than programming computers a little Alpha out there for all the software Engineers who listen to this podcast yeah most definitely uh it's uh it's

it's not for the faint of heart because they say we need people yeah yeah yeah I have a um another uh software engineer who I'm friends with and uh they always recount to me you know the thing about computers is I always know their state like it's either a zero or one or it's binary and it won't deceive you at least not uh on purpose but like with people they're more complicated and they're emotive and and uh I don't know I think there's a when technologists get senior they either have to to deal with start to learn to have people skills or they just hold themselves down into an architecture like technologist route so um you know if you're an audience if you're listening to this I think my

challenge to you is if you're gonna if you're deciding that people is a competency that that you need then learning more about uh ikigai and in your work is probably a good investment oh yeah I would I would say that uh I know even so I'll share something from my Marine Corps days that I think will apply and speak to that a bit I'm sure everybody has their own image of what what the Marines are like right but I'll tell you that the Marine Corps leadership principle is described as a double braided chord two co-equal deliverables uh welfare of the troops and Mission accomplishment and those are co-equal and when you think about that so if if all I cared about was the

mission so if you think about a Marines gotta got to take a hill right then I would unnecessarily jeopardize my men or uh in battle right but if all I cared about was welfare of the troops I'd never try and take the hill and it's recognizing that that's a balance and that we have to balance that and and in terms of leadership applying that to business obviously the stakes are a little different right but in terms of that it's the same sort of thing it's like we've got to stay healthy enough that we stay as a company that we're making money and we're we're going to be able to be employed we don't do that we'll be out of work that's not very helpful to the people at the same time we can't focus exclusively on what's going to crank out

the products and things like that we've got to take care of the people at the same time and so if if you know a rough tough Marine Corps uh can can consider the people and have that element of it to me that's a that's a great lesson for business that it's a co-equal thing and it's always guided my uh leadership thinking and uh found it to be pretty effective I was just picturing the the Ika guy uh Venn diagram in my head as you talked about the co-equal goals of um mission accomplished and Welfare of the troops it almost feels like they're an intersection of there's a Venn diagram there also that's similar to the what can you be paid for what the world

needs what you're good at Venn diagram of the individualist it is like a team Eco guy uh and is it more than just those two braids of uh accomplished submission and Welfare troops yeah that's a that's a great question and thought about it that way but you're right that there is that that overlap um what I have done with businesses is use a a four Circle bin which which talks about you know what what the companies may be good at then what we might want to Branch into do we have those skills in the in the company I mean anytime you excuse me anytime you're um you're looking at that you can look is there a Gap you know is there a Gap maybe I want to be really good at this or I want to do this but do I have

the skill so one of my clients that I worked with was uh was a pastor a very good pastor for a long time and he he got very ill and had cancer and uh recovered from it but he didn't have the stamina to be a full-time Pastor anymore and he always had a heart for writing and he wanted to write science fiction novels This Guy's super interesting I mean uh like he said he's a pastor and he has that interest and he can talk about you know multi-dimensional universes and quantum physics and so he writes these books to sort of combine those those interests and what we found when we looked at his at uh his skill set was he was lacking editing skills and some of the other things that you need to be you know a

published author and so it was it was an opportunity to say well what are you what are you good at well he's good at writing he's good at formulating stories and interesting stories he's not very good at editing he's not very good at dialogue and so working on those that helped him become a better author and you can do that in business business as well using you know using that as a kind of a gap analysis tool to see what what do we need and what have we defined our our purpose that we Define what takes us Beyond just um making a buck uh you got to make a buck to stay in business we don't want to just be making a buck and do we want to be making a buck that contributes in a deeper way and a more impactful way

so to me that's that's where those those Venn diagrams help that level of dialogue yeah well I think that the uh you know this audience is composed to people who are trying to build a more regenerative digital culture and they're remote first and so I think that there's a lot of people that are that listen to this podcast that are young leaders who are trying to to figure out how to align these things and I'm wondering how they might learn more or get involved in your work um I know that you you have a sub stack which we'll Link in the show notes um but you know what what are ways that people can deepen this this practice the the the um that you do coaching on yeah so uh as you said I've got uh I've got a sub

stack where I share uh every day uh something and then I have a uh uh eke Quest is what it's called iki Quest because everybody's on the quest freaky guy um and then I have an ecoquest plus uh subscription where there's some training and some other things that people can get into as well um also share on LinkedIn uh usually it's it's business oriented more than the personal but uh always about something ikigai related and um you can learn that there as well great and we'll also have a link in the show notes to your Twitter where you're the ikigai guy hence three times fast but yeah alrighty well is there anything I didn't

ask that that you want to say no I think uh if I can just touch on that one one point you were making about sustainable uh you know companies and things when you when you think about sustainability I connect that uh obviously to live a life is sustainable means to live in harmony with your essence and purpose and all you do I would include work in that and I would include companies in that because when you're taking it from that perspective uh you know work and the environment all of it comes together and when you're when you're in that Harmony then you are doing those things and so it's it's something that um in a lot of our continuous improvement work people will do things where you want to improve a process and

I want to maybe it takes me an hour to do 20 whatevers I mean you do coding right it was whatever your coding unit is and if you could do them you know 30 or 40 in an hour oh that's great that's a process Improvement I always challenge people to think you might be able to do that for an hour like really fast can you do that every hour eight hours a day for 30 years that's you want to think about that level of sustainability and you want to think about that in your career in your life in your activities in the company that you make and the products that you make in the interaction you have think about sustainability in that way in the sense of of Harmony and balance of your essence and your purpose that'll that'll

set you up I think to do the right things the right way and have the right outcomes yeah I think that's a beautiful place to to end well David thanks so much for coming on the green pill podcast and helping people build a more regenerative internet and a more regenerative way of approaching their work and we'll have links to all of your presences in the showdowns I encourage people to check uh check out David's work if you were trained to build your guy or trying to build a team where people are finding the right guy so thanks again for joining David been my great pleasure thank you Joe foreign [Music]