How Anatoly Yakovenko built Solana

Transcript

[Music] thank you thank you Jeff I'm Anatoly I find that everyone in crypto has some interesting story for how they first fell down the rabbit hole will you tell us yours and perhaps how your prior background at Qualcomm had influenced the way you saw crypto and why it mattered yeah for sure yeah first first of all thank you for having me so I kind of heard about Bitcoin like in the you know right after the 2008 crisis and I thought it was kind of neat and interesting but my only interest in it was can I figure out if I could build like a GPU accelerated Miner or

something like that and uh my first experience with crypto was during that Rush where people were building faster and faster miners uh there's actually a project that promised to give you an Asic uh so I ordered one and they built the Asic but they delayed releasing it for six months so they could mine all the advantage of that Asic and get all the rewards before shipping it to you so that was like my first intro to crypto I would say uh and I thought it was kind of neat but didn't really take it seriously I think up until I would say 2017 and um I had a side project one of the co-founders of Solana Stephen Akridge he's a GPU lead at Qualcomm we had a side project building

um systems for deep learning and we're using crypto to mine in the background to save on capital costs for the Deep this hardware and this is when I got into proof of work and I was like trying to figure out why is it so useful why is it necessary why does it cause high fees on bitcoin because at that time if you spiked to like 60 70 bucks a transaction they actually can't they stopped taking Bitcoin as a payment for the Bitcoin conference and it literally had like two coffees at Cafe Soleil in San Francisco and a beer and I didn't sit well with me and I was up till like four in the morning and had this Eureka moment that there's a way to encode passage of time as a data structure

which I didn't know but that's called the verifiable delay function and I simply couldn't Google for it because I didn't that's a not a name that I would have come up on my own take all those things so I thought I had come up with something really unique and interesting and a way to generate a proof and there was at that time there were a lot of kind of like proof of this proof of that systems coming out and why it really like kind of took a hold of me and like kind of really pushed me down the rabbit hole is because I spent most of my career Qualcomm it's a company that works in the wireless industry if you folks remember your early physics classes you know you have two radio towers that transmit radio at the same time or the same frequency get noise

so the information is not passing through so the way that they sell this for two G cellular networks is called time division multiple access all the towers of a clock and they alternate by time when they can transmit and this is the same problem in Bitcoin if you have two block producers that produce a block at the same time the network is in a noisy State and you don't know which which is the Right Fork so when I knew that I could generate a data structure permissionlessly that represented passage of time I knew that I could build tdma and that means I can build a fast Network that was kind of like what spark sparked the idea but um but probably the main reason is like where I went from just an idea to uh

you know quitting my job raising funding and everything is because I spent most of my career building operating systems so I was one of the first Engineers on Brew this operating system that ran um vast majority of like flip phones and cell phones that that Ram like welcome chips and uh I saw like we we basically bootstrapped that whole ecosystem from like nobody wanted to run any applications on phones and thought that you know the only downloadable app were ringtones to like okay we're playing around and messing around with stuff so all of a sudden this is the most important platform in the world um so the fact that ethereum had smart contracts and developers were building

these things and they were different than any other kind of application you could write on any other infrastructure to me it was like okay this is an OS I'm good at building operating systems and that that's really what got me to go fully fully in that's a great technical insight as to how you got interested in building Solana as part of this program uh a lot of it is about building and forming relationships between co-founders and you mentioned one Raj is is another I'd love to ask you how you met the right people to start Solana with and how you built and maintained those relationships over the last couple of years yeah a lot of this was close friends of mine so Raj was somebody I met through a close friend that I've known for over 20 years

as a certain physicist that I respect very deeply and he worked with them at Armada health and when I decided okay I'm gonna go start this company he recommended that I talk to Raj because I in all my connections were deeply technical folks with a ton of experience you know building and executing and Engineering but zero experience and actually raising money or like doing anything else of like what a normal company requires and Raj has raised money before he's founded companies before and we kind of not mind melded and he was like okay I'll give you six months I'll see if I can like help you raise money and get kind of the team together um it's been like basically five years

since we've been working together and he's the CEO and like I would say you kind of need like uh you know with a lot of other Engineers that can kind of hand them off work and they just go and build it and there's a lot of trust there that's really important but but like starting a company and actually like going from zero to one and finding product Market fit it's such a like non-linear unpredictable task that you're like we were literally like up during covet we were on like a 24 7 Zoom call like that was just an open window I would I still like I have like the image of what his his background was like burnt into my brain at this point

and I would just be pacing around like like talking to him like all the time trying to figure out how do we like launch how to get the first users the first developers to go use this thing you need somebody that's not an engineer I think to do though it could be an engineer that does it with but it's not an engineering skill what stands out to you as the set of attributes that are indicative of finding the right person there um somebody that has like the the stamina to like argue things to exhaustion I would say and like I think once you recognize that we've covered all the options we were kind of okay we don't all the op all the remaining options are

as good as possible so it's almost like we're picking at random you know but like you need somebody with a lot of stamina to go like through that process with you I was excited really excited when I first met you because I met a bunch of teams in the prior months who had been building on Solana and you were just talking about the the process of finding product Market fit finding a developer Community what are some of the things that you learned and and you would advise people today to do as they they go through that process so for me it was very accidental we basically did raise as much money as our competitors we we had a small seed round it was like three million bucks and then we raised like 15 in the a round and our competitors raised hundreds of millions of dollars

like literally like hundreds of billions so we had enough to and I was lucky that I was able to hire a bunch of folks that worked with Qualcomm for over a decade that we had a really good engineering team but I couldn't build everything so we had to really optimize for the one thing that Solana could be good at and that was finality as fast as you can around the world with as much throughput as you can and that meant no evm support no like ethereum support like we really had to go build a very unique system and that actually ended up being a huge differentiator because at that time we were one of the first to get to Market

and it was fast still is it's super cheap and all the other competitors were basically evm chance like Evie amp plus a consensus mechanism Improvement and it was really hard for developers to differentiate between those evm Solutions and any other ones or Roll-Ups and all these other things so they kind of split the market of all the Curious people by ad and everyone that was interested in Rust and like an alternative way to build software and Engineers are they're curious people like that this is what makes you Engineers you're curious you will go try at a system and mess around with it those folks actually all just came to Solana and started experimenting

and Building Things and uh it was really like rough at that time like it like the what we built was literally like here's a way for you to build a system call and rust and you had to serialize it deserialize everything by hand there was no libraries it was like as close to like a Linux kernel driver experiences you could get so there was a huge barrier to entry for people to to overcome but because it did something that no other chain did it was really really fast and you couldn't copy and paste ethereum code that actually was like really important for those early devs that could put in the effort and like build something really cool that

was different no one else had that at the market in the market and that I think created this kind of sticky ecosystem of these early adopters that were willing to chew glass we literally called the chewy glass and like you know build something really really awesome and like actually see the benefits of their efforts um I think in those early days you saw a lot of ecosystems pop up and like you would just see a rush of copy paste smart contracts moving from ethereum to those and it would kind of decimate anyone that was actually genuinely curious and had like wanted to spend the time and innovate but because of the barrier to entry you just couldn't do that so there was a kind of like this weird accidental thing that in

retrospect I think was a huge part of our success I think it was Eddie on our team who first uh at least to me used the term nerd snipe and what I'm hearing from you is that programming in Rust and your virtual machine were an excellent nerd's knife to create a passionate Niche for Solana is there a process that you have sort of derived post taste that you think could be applied to finding the right nerd Snipes or creating the right niches yeah I think uh you generally have to like try to unlock something that's 10x 100x better um so and that that's pretty tough and that that's just really really hard engineering work I think we might have like you know this is again not not necessarily trying to nerd snipe people

but we built this compressed nft feature where it's using stateless accumulators no one else like these were cool Concepts in 2019 other folks haven't launched it because they require a lot of bandwidth and Solana is actually well suited for high bandwidth transactions so we launched these things and it reduced the cost of minting nfts by exponential like it costs like 100 bucks to million nfts now so that is the nerd's night for certain people like and we see like new developers that are coming in to build on Solano simply because of that even though it is actually kind of a pain in the ass to work with that data structure but because it's a like a 100x improvement over anything else they're willing to put in the effort to do it so

you got to find that like outlier Improvement that you can build I think you know this is true of All Tech like why did people start working on like GPU generalized GPU programming like five years ago it was a massive pain in the ass but it did have that like 100x Improvement of Uncertain applications so we're talking a little bit about some of the the passionate Niche users but you've also before talked about wanting to expand crypto adoption and bring it to hopefully everyone on Earth what do you think are some of the bottlenecks today that you're focused on uh expanding to make crypto ubiquitous so we're trying a lot of things like uh one of the crazier things that we're trying

is like launching a phone and uh the reason for that uh probably like if I did work at Qualcomm and I knew that these are the five things that you need to do to go like launch uh there's no way we would have taken the sod uh but it is actually literally going out like uh in a couple days April 20th the devices are shipping so like the big challenge with crypto is that it really doesn't fit well with the web 2 business models like the idea that you own your own digital content does not work with how traditional software companies make money this goes back to like even reselling your windows license like Microsoft soft does not want you to resell the windows license that you've

bought they want you to like pay for my pay Microsoft and then everyone else pay Microsoft every time they you know they copy it to a new machine uh because they want that Revenue right it's great when you get it same thing with like music or any other digital content the like kind of deep irony there is like apple built the iPod so you can take your music anywhere but it was wasn't really your music because you can't actually go resell it like uh they they really want you to rent the music from them and then like play it right and with an nft when you buy it a magic Eden you actually bought it from another person and it's a real transfer of value magic you can't charge 30 more on that transfer on the on the mobile app store

there's just no way that they can do that because they don't own that content right that's some other third party that owns it and they're charging a market rate for it and they can't list prices 30 percent higher on their mobile store because these are like ten thousand dollar nfts No One's Gonna Pay 13 000 bucks for something that's worth ten thousand bucks on on the desktop so this really really just doesn't work with how like these App Store models work so this is one of the reasons why like we decided to launch our own phone is because we can build an alternative app store model where it's all crypto based there's no additional fees and stuff like that and that's a potentially like

it's not gonna you know I would love to sell a billion devices right but like I'm being realistic I think the likely thing that could happen here is that we see a flywheel effect where sum up some developers that have great mobile applications on the current mobile app stores they know who their whales are they know who the one percent of their users are to generate 90 of their revenue they should literally be giving out this phone for free to those users because if they can convert them from that 30 percent fee right Revenue to the zero percent fee Revenue that's a massive Improvement for those developers and once that starts once you start seeing Revenue shift to app stores that don't have this rake I think you'll

start actually seeing the VPS and all these other folks at these big companies actually take notice and adjust their policies take crypto seriously add support for self-custody and all those other things and then the door the door is open and then we actually see wide adoption but this is like a slog I think adoption in crypto is really really hard because you're building like two-sided marketplaces for everything and you need applications that are really really good that are so good that people are actually willing you know install on extension on their Chrome browser and do all this all of the stuff there are some right people are obviously doing it but it's just like we need to overcome all these bottlenecks and barriers of the ux side and on the

application side and you've been hinting a little bit at the importance of scalability towards being a really important unlock and Solana has been very focused on performance and scale I would love to get your thoughts on the end game of blockchain scalability so to speak when we have a billion users engaging on Magic Eden or on another nft Marketplace how will that work under the hood so there's basically I think two schools of thoughts kind of emerging I would say one is the Solana way is which is uh improving the performance of the validators and the other one is kind of going the data availability like sampling route which is the ethereum route and I'm very bearish of that approach being able to achieve the kind

of cost to the user for for throughput that you can on a system like Solana so the way Solano works is you have as many validators you want some some number of them but they need high high bandwidth High availability systems and these systems today like when you go to a data center there they give you literally one gigabit for free like one gigabit up and down is the standard connection your the data center has 10 gigabits up and down available and the cost per terabyte right now is like 60 cents per terabyte of egress so if you have 10 000 validators they're all paying 60 cents per terabyte for egress and this is the Solana data availability layer then the cost of the

user per byte comes out roughly about like 2 to the minus seven or something like that per byte so it's a very very small amount of dollars that you have to pay per message because the way Solano works is that it's actually able to leverage that one gigabit channel it's able to saturate it as as much as possible basically as as many cores as you can as you can throw these validators the more cores they have the more data they can process the more they saturate these channels the more efficiently they're using the resources allocated to this network the lower the costs per byte to the user and this is the approach that we're taking and it if you think about what

decentralization means and that's like how secure the network is for majority attacks like can can a single system or some minority assistance detect that the majority is doing something bad and notify usage and stop that Solana definitely achieves that because it can just support a very large number of nodes that are all fully connected at the same time receive the data at the same time vote at the same time so from from that perspective it satisfies both high throughput high decentralization and like low and low latency for finality um and I don't think that the way that ethereum's design is going to become close to that kind of cost I think you'll see prices on ethereum

being like a thousand times more expensive and that's just simply because Hardware utilization utilization do you think there will be a place for multiple different architectures and how do you imagine that evolving over time what role will Solana play if if you see multiple different interesting I mean like I think some teams will just want to launch a cosmos chain there's just no way to stop them like and it's easy and they're gonna do it and like I think that's totally fine so I think I think that that's definitely going to happen I think the roll up kind of data availability Centric Solutions are all very similar in terms of how they perform I think and that architecture I think is sound and ethereum I think is like really

championed the research there it's like a a I don't know if folks remember 2017 the Chardon consensus sharding wasm you was on roadmap is so far like uh like so far away from where the ethereum roadmap is today and that's good because there's no way that was going to work um before we open it up to q a I'd love to ask you you get interviewed quite a bit what are the questions that you wish people would ask you more oh man um adoption I guess developers uh uh like that's that's kind of what I'm

like how how are we like actually growing the ecosystem in terms of developers like this is like an Open Secret we have really great hackathons and there's no we don't do really do anything special I kind of don't understand why other ecosystems haven't haven't copied this but uh we try to get as many devs together into a single event so they can work together and actually meet each other and like collaborate and each one of these events has a kind of a different flavor because the kind of the narratives change and what crypto is about like it was D5 and nfts now like a bit more social and stuff like that and having all the people work together on a kind of single

deadline really accelerates the development and ideation and actually going from okay I'm kind of messing around with the stuff on the internet over the weekend too I'm gonna build a product and a pitch deck and try to race for it and that pressure of a competition actually works really well so that was kind of like that's like the whole secret sauce with that uh we'd love to open it up for questions I'm sure there are many in the audience if you'd walk up to the mic gaming platform so my question is as we know that it takes a long time to build a infrastructure one chain how do you balance between

um like release your product Alpha version versus I need to be stable enough to be performant enough how do you make that trade-off that's a really really hard question um we so like internally we never had enough like resources to to build everything so we focused on stuff that we could that like you know if a developer can do this over a weekend we just wouldn't do it internally like and that that often means that the developer experience is bad so you try to like really work on the things that are take a long time to build and really optimize and then stability versus shipping features is a

really really tough trade-off I think during a bull run you have to like ship as fast as you can to try to onboard as many people as you can drink a baron you like focus on stability like um I don't know if this is consciously the choice that we made but that was really like it felt like if you were moving too slowly during a bull run you would miss your opportunity to like kind of leg up and like get wider adoption get as many more use cases and things like that so it's something that you guys would have to internally kind of you know make that gut decision as a CEO do we ship this now or like try to make it better

and ship it in six months God it makes sense um another question I have is uh we know Solana is great but there are also like other one coming like all the time uh what's your um like analysis or your sales on the new upcoming channels such as X3 or Aptos um so we when they when Libra launched move like I'm a software engineer I'm a virtual machine geek move is a pretty cool VM so we actually demoed it like we could run move in parallel and Solana and it was the performance there was about four times faster on the Solana Fork then on Libras at the time so we are actively building a llvm front end for move to compile move to the byte

code that Solana uses so our approach to to Tech has been like you know stand on the shoulders of giants we use llvm we use like as many as standard Linux tools so we can then like whenever something cool and new comes out we can Port it and like activate it on the network in terms of like performance I don't like again we will adopt whatever makes Solana faster if there's like ideas or or something like that that people that people demonstrate like live on Main nav hey this is actually faster got it thank you one thing I really appreciate is the approach of going uh mobile first um I think there are a lot of Skeptics from the perspective of the cost

structure and performance um compared to like the incumbent but it yeah it's definitely something has to give um my question would be long term are you building the disrupter or are you building a companion crypto device um yeah how do you think of that and like what do you like see from your perspective that maybe people don't really understand in terms of the long term yeah so like the software stack SMS is you can separate that from the device so we wanted to build a device because it's kind of a you need like an oem that's willing to chew glass with you because you need like OEM changes to add

support and the secure element and Trust Zone and like all of those iterations are a pain in the butt to do and I'm not sure we could have worked with like a huge OEM on this like awesome is a startup like us they're out of Cupertino so they're willing to kind of like do custom stuff right like put their best Engineers on this and like build this with us uh but SMS itself as a piece of software like now that it's done and we've iterated once on it like I would basically love to give it to every other OEM in the world and have it like run on every device right like the cheapest Android to the most expensive one um that process is going to take some time but that's kind of the idea is like we don't need to have our own device

succeed we can actually have the software stack succeed on its own and that's the more disruptive part uh but I would you know obviously would love to sell a bajillion devices [Laughter] but that that's a that's a different business right than like I think building platforms excellent thank you hey thanks for the talk uh David from disco here um I would love to see some competition with iOS and in their App Store um but as a user I I also realistically speaking and it would take a lot for me to switch to a to another OS so I'm curious like how do you see that and like what are the other sort of strategies or

tactics that you're thinking about in terms of um getting mint buttons on iOS or or mobile right like it seems like it's it's holding back the industry a little bit yeah like I don't know I don't know if you've used the glow wallet extension on Safari iOS that's probably the best ux in crypto because it signs directly in the in the app in the Safari window but it's really like I think you're gonna have to have somebody succeed with crypto without Apple for the Apple to change it's mine like actually show that they're losing market share on something that is more important to them

than the abstract Revenue which would be their Hardware Sales like and that's going to take I think uh Global crypto adoption like it's just not I don't you know we could do it I hope but like I I think realistically is going to take the whole industry um the kind of the positives here is that like most of the world actually outside of the US is not as iOS Centric and crypto is very Global as you guys have seen from the developer charts it's not it's growing faster outside of the US in terms of like the number of people building applications and stuff like that so if you're building a business encrypted you kind of have to think uh of your consumer base as being very

Global like you're div like your developers everyone else that you talk to is not being only in the US and that means supporting Android and if you've kind of if we actually see decent growth globally outside of iOS I'm pretty sure Apple will kind of change its mind because I don't know how much they care about their they care more about losing I think uh market share and platform control then they do care about the App Store revenues I would say um how do you guys think about decentralization right now and what would happen to Solana if you weren't there

so um if you look at my GitHub I'm actually not contributing as much code as I used to every once in a while I write like a proposal so I think actually development everything else will be fine um I do spend a lot of time on Twitter um the so that kind of like bus Factor decentralization the biggest suffer that the foundations is undertaking is working with the jump high frequency trading team to build a second implementation from the ground up of the Solana validator so they get to see the the maze from the start to finish we you know we had to like build the code and

do the r d at the same time and get to Market and everything they actually know exactly what the code does now and like get to optimize it um so their team is building everything in C they're showing tasks that are like over 600 000 DPS it's um like modern day hardware and that both increases performance and reduces the bus Factor so if like for whatever reason something you know were to happen there's another team that is just as smart that that's moving the like the design forward awesome thank you hi thanks for your talk um with the Solana phone coming out in the app store that's going to be on it

how are you thinking about you know what gets shown in the App Store uh like content moderation and like where's the barrier between like you know removing spam and like censorship yeah so um initially it's just gonna be us doing this uh because the number of like all the applications that are being developed for it are basically folks from the ecosystem that we know but I think the the right approach to this problem is to have kind of Community Driven like different moderation lists so it's not a single Global list it's a bunch of them you subscribe to whichever one you want and it's driven by your favorite mft Community or some other governance mechanism and stuff like that so my my Approach is like kind of like

the more Reddit Discord model where you have a bunch of communities with their own self-governing rules yeah that makes sense thank you what do you see as the biggest threat to the rollout of Solana in the future right um I don't know I mean like probably that we don't discover any application in crypto that's useful to a large number of people in the world like that there's no proof that like nothing that crypto has built yet is like really necessary to a billion people that's been like I think the the biggest threat to the entire space so wow yeah if if if a large number of people don't need crypto you don't need

a high performance blockchain what do you think has been the closest to like a real world use case so far maybe what are you most excited about um so I think like there's a couple applications that are building kind of social Finance so dialect and backpack are one is more of a wallet-centric approach backpack the other one's a chat app but basically you have social you have chat you have ability to interact with people but then you can also have Financial events in that thing so I can send you like a a message that's one half of a multi-sig that you're supposed to sign and then it does something so you can build like a global app that supports many currencies but has Rich Financial applications that

can work locally and globally and across borders I think that is like a potential to be like you know the crypto WeChat and if it's a moderate success like if it's even like a small success in the social side like 10 20 30 million users that would be the biggest thing in crypto right that would be the biggest application in crypto and once you get to like even 10 million users I would say it would be enough once you get to that scale of like general consumers using this you can start testing like what do you applications as a general consumer actually want and you can then start finding product Market fit Loops there and like I think you'll see a flywheel but like you need we need

something that has like 100 million people using it like I think in the next five years if that doesn't happen that's I think the biggest threat to the entire space I think and it's fully on that topic you have a lot of people here building a wide variety of different things are there other applications that you're particularly excited about in terms of increasing the total number of users who've interacted with blockchain yeah for sure like I mean gaming uh we we have a started a big effort in gaming last year and we had like close to 40 teams that were in close beta or further along during break point but it should be launching sometime this year so that's one big potential uh thing that could unlock a lot of users there's

still like no one has proven okay this is the nft loop of Gaming users love these nfts they attract more more users and it's growing that hasn't been proven yet on any game in crypto payments is another one I think payments is just really really obvious um we were close with like big payment company in the US to launch something very compelling but the Crackdown on the regulatory side really makes it hard um I'm hoping that this year like there is a stable coin bill that just kind of makes it like simple for somebody like usdc to operate and like for people to launch their own versions of uscc um I think that would be like a huge

unlock for for the entire space um I think defy really needs a large consumer base to to prove out um right now everything that we see in D5 is very still very much kind of the same kind of default that you saw from 2018 which is like these things are trading crypto tokens or managing crypto tokens I think it's awesome that they've proven out that you can actually do risk management like Ave didn't blow up during any of the crashes that's awesome I think that it's really proven that it's ready for real world assets and everything else but you're not going to get there until you have enough consumers that have self-custody that care about transparency and access to these applications through defy versus E-Trade

right like as long as people prefer E-Trade or Fidelity you're not going to get a ton of adoption there uh this may already exist but I was curious have there been thoughts about like a VM layer on top of Solana such that you could Port evm compatible contracts without um kind of that Dev experience but get the benefits of the performance yeah there's two efforts one is called neon which is literally the Sputnik VM which is a rust implementation of AVM that's compiled as a Solana program and it executes it's pretty cool that it's actually like does incremental execution so you can post very large ethereum transactions and then it cranks through them so that's one I think they're launching as soon as Maine had

is on 114 or later and then there's a compiler that we we are working on called solang as an open source compiler so you can take solidity and recompile it to the Solana program and that one is a bit more work uh you kind of have to you know put in some effort to make sure that correctness and like kind of the interfaces are preserved cool thank you so much for sure if maybe one more uh but until you've obviously built across multiple Cycles already in crypto starting back in I think 2018 then a bear Market through the massive upswing in 2021 and now through another bear Market I'd love to maybe hear if you have any kind of parting words of

wisdom for the builders in this room about what it's like to build through Cycles through the ups and downs not only building a product but also building a community in an ecosystem through all those different uh Cycles I would honestly say that you're almost too late if it's a bull market it's really really hard to to get real product Market fit when when everything is so noisy right now every user that you get every every account you sign up or you know whatever your business model is it's going to be real like you actually get real signal you get to iterate even if those numbers are small they're small for everyone so like investors are gonna always push you where's more you know worse growth where there's more revenue and stuff like that but you know if it's

bad for everyone but they have they have believe in the macros of the space you're in a really good spot and if you grind out and you get like those real signals when the bull cycle starts you'll you should see growth that's outpacing everyone else and like everyone of everyone else is you know if you're right you will have a dozen competitors launched during the bull market that are copying you and they're never going to be able to catch up like I think that's that's kind of like the I think the big benefit of starting now um the other thing now is like right now you have a lot more support from ecosystems if you guys are building on Solana we will literally like have Engineers that can help you there's

grants for writing open source code and stuff like that which was not possible in the previous cycle like I think that that was kind of non-existent I would say but like yeah right now for application developers all the layer ones are hungry for adoption and they can't build apps themselves you guys have to do them so we will literally bend over backwards like reach out to be like Anatolia at solano.com if you guys need engineering support we will help you all right so with that thank you so much for being here today Angela thank you [Music]