Hold DOGE, XRP, LTC? MoreMarkets Lets You Stake It!

Transcript

we basically take the asset we lock it and we mint a representation of that asset because the XP users Doge users sometimes other users they just gold no like they want to come to one front end like a cent sex experience they be like hey I want to provide liquidity say some Market on ethereum this is what I'm going to get this is the rate I'm getting this is the risk I'm taking and just want to provide that right so that's the goal now we actually have the fundamental like the tech is there just to be able to use and kind of kind of like comb the Legos pieces together to deliver this experience that didn't [Music] exist I'm here with Alton tutar uh CEO

and co-founder of Neel Labs how's it going man good how about yourself great yeah thanks for joining so we're going to dive deep into nefil today understanding where it fits in the reaking narrative and also get understand some of the cryptoeconomic um kind of intricacies of nuffle and also the the technical bits specifically how it leverages near da and Ian but first before we get started if you're not subscribed to this channel yet please subscribe hit the like button and notification Bell to get notified when new episodes drop every week and drop me a follow on Twitter at 73.0 so let's start with the foundation for why nuffle exists why did you guys build this and where does it fit in the broader restating

narrative yeah I can I can give an intro to myself and how we started I'm Al on more enough um I grew up in Turkey so that how I started that's how I got really interesting crypto as you guys might know like inflation has been pretty bad over there since 2013 2014 like we saw Turkish l devalue a lot and you see that a lot of people use crypto as a means to hold their wealth and it's actually one of the biggest markets for bance and others to kind of buy Bitcoin but anyway studi Computer Science and Mathematics undergrad and then did my masters in in AI which was uh doing a lot of Robotics work so I was pretty interested in doing simulation where you can train a robot in simulation and take

that s of real world did A S A Research role at Imperial College London and that was my into sort of crypto because when you look at crypto everything is sort of a simulation right everything is is virtual money uh it's all about incentives um and I really love that so um that's how I got to be where I am um I was I was hacking on near and near Foundation hired me in 2022 uh I met all my co-founders at near where India basically put a task force in and back in August and said look like there's this interesting thing coming up with with the mar stack what can we build and that's how we started with near da but quickly realized like the fundamentals we're building is something interesting

so we we built a fast finale there on top that allows you to message pass pretty fast across the chains and I really like this sort of thinking of like verticalization pretty pretty cheap uh and then we built a fast finale layer to be able to message fast Prett PR quickly and um one of the use cases that we saw that was immediate for us was hey I'm sitting on near and I would want to Ru my I would want to like to I layers is almost like supply side how do I do that it's traditionally been that you need to get out of a flop to um swap to eth somehow and then go to eth claim your

eth and then go stake that so our mission has changed to be more it's a native staking solution where depends on where you set eum L1 L2 or near salana doesn't really Mar watching you're on I want people to be able to stti to First IG there and being able to earn rewards directly from their own change without even selling the token right um that's like the phase one of what we're building but the infra is very flexible in a sense that you can actually build like you can you can take draer provided to a lending platform on on Moro you can take that provide you know become an LP into a PO on salana so thing that's that assets need to do more and are

infrastructure allow allows to do that okay so let's come back to the main use case here the foundational use use case so nuffle will allow you to take your native assets like let's say doge or xrp or any assets on any blockchain those assets probably don't have really good bridging infrastructure or defi if you look at some of the top 20 assets they're basically sort of dinosaur chains right like these are assets that are mostly traded on Sexes a lot of the conversation recently has been around like how do we get those assets how do we get that liquidity into defi because there's a ton of there's like you know hundreds of billions of dollars worth Equity they just kind of dormant how do we get those assets into Defi and how do we get those holders of those assets be able to utilize these

Assets in other ecosystems where defi is more developed more more mature and so nuffle allows you to kind of stake those assets and then they appear as liquid state assets on some other chain is that kind of the high level yeah we basically take the asset we lock it and we mint a representation of that asset um ideally there's two ways to think about this right for the user there's an advanced portion which is like you actually want to take the asset on the other chain want to do other things but I want way simpler because they XP users do users sometimes other users they just do gold no like they want to come to one front and like a centralized sex experience they' be like hey I want to provide

liquidity say some Market on ethereum let that be moreful this is what I'm going to get this is the rate I'm getting this is the risk I'm taking and just want to provide that right so that's the goal um and it's quite interesting right you mentioned xrp xrp has done really well in terms of the market cap but the xrp is like utilized around 0.08% so utilization rate is is very simple like you take the market cap of the asset and then you take the TDL you divide TV by market cap it's not the greatest metric out there but it gives you some sort of understanding of like how the asset is being used so pretty excited about that right like the tech wasn't there in 20 the last cycle when layer zero was just coming around like warmall was coming around and now we

actually have the fundamental like the tech is there just to be able to use and kind of kind of like combine the Legos pieces together to deliver this experience that didn't exist and a lot of this traditionally has been you know like swapping an asset right you go to portal you swap let's say near to salana Sol near but I want to take one step further where you're sitting on that chain near you want provide liquidity to Moro you should be able to just come into front end and do that so that's the mission and yeah team's quite excited about it been working this for a while staking is the way to kind of start the first sort of the use case but it goes Way Beyond State King yeah so I I guess like that you if we take a step back here the way we

people have done this typically before for chains where there are solid Bridges between the two chains is you you you bridge that asset into the other chain so you might Bridge salana into ethereum using Wormhole and then you have some Wormhole representation of Sal over on eth you you have to take the bridge risk there but uh then you have that that that representation of salana on eth and you can participate in D you might do the opposite right you might bring Ethan to salana how is this different how is this like fundamentally different than just bridging and what does what does this stateless validation really provide in addition to you in terms of security guarantees like how is it better than just bridging yeah so bridging has

traditionally been that you have to give the burn and mint rights to bridge right so brid has the control over the token Supply the way we're trying to do it is pretty much not custodial so you sit on the Chain you lock the chain so you have pretty much a receipt token that if something happens to the bridge you can go back to both both sents and they claim the tokens back so we have like a recovery mechanism if something happens to the bridge so that's pretty much different and the bridges mainly has been I think it's a UI experience like the product experience has been the problem and toally talked about it before too is that you know all the technology is there it's just that we as an industry we have been always like I have this bridge front end I have this

bridge front end I have this bridge front end like you know the technology has been there so I think we have now the technology where you can just use message passing right and then basically lock and mint a token on the other side and then use a controls to whole thing that's the difference from bridging one it's not custodial two is pretty much the ux I would want people to come to one front end and being able to stake it becomes like an earning app right like you I want people to earn rather than go to binance earning like you know earning there you can just come and earn onchain and you've been seeing this examples of this you know with infinex with all the other sort of deck spot looking like sex products our goal is to become like this earning product that people come in and

and you know contribute their assets to anywhere pretty much right and so where did the staking rewards come from I mean because like typically we think about staking your your locking tokens in order to secure a chain uh you if you're moving say like near if you want to provide near uh in a ling pool on Moro for instance you're actually staking the token right I mean you're kind of like locking it in some form and so where does that yield come from and yeah yeah there's a couple ways to think about it so when I say stake I'm referring to ig staking so in that case the great thing about alal ones is that there's base yield right so when you stake let's say in the future with us set you can get

the base reward and other rewards that come from adss just like typical on on an ethereum so we we provide the same mechanism for near right instead of going to a native reaking mark on near there's been a couple but there's not been that much at Option you can actually go to ig where there's like 80 to 100 like adss that can eventually pay rewards that's number one so you're getting the base reward and then getting i l rewards so that's stake from anywhere and you can replicate this for any L1 pretty much as long as you have an LRT partner that can go go there with you the other product which is like taking year but then you have to create build a Marketplace where people want to borrow near xrp and create that PS on Moro which people started doing like

lbtc is there now you know these assets start to get accepted it's the same mechanism so user has to pick right user either be like I'm staking my Mir and this is what I'm earning and additional I'm getting additional yield from other protocols which is emissions or I'm going to go basically Moro then usdc pole then as long as there's demand for it there would be like the the rate for it and then therefore I'll be earning guil so that or maybe you're like remote lping which is quite interesting right where if everything goes on chain and everybody trades on chain then like hypera is a great example that started with perex now they go on spot then you have the opportunity where you sit actually on air I want to provide liquidity to the hyper liquid I just

stay there and that's another like basically an option in the in the product that you can say hey I'm providing liquidity to all people obviously there's impermanent loss just like with everything but you know at least I'm contributing and I'm not selling my actually I'm like holding the asset for the native Chain by contributing to the demand of my liquid say interesting okay can you explain like the role of Igan lir here and why you chose IG lir and why not some other reaking protocol or there is there an opportunity to have like multiple reaking protocols what would be the benefit of that yeah I can has been so we when we started on near it was almost well there was the first resing platform and you wanted to build something for rollups it was the only

place to do it at the time it was like what we were one of the early builders in m l and the great thing about this is like traditionally people wanted to like warm for example has the guardian Network which is they bootstrapped over time you know there's this always problem of bootstrapping your own validators like cosos had this problem right you have to you spot up a new chain now you to find operators for yourself I allowed us to do pretty much come in early and wstra to network quote unquote from existing operators of IG there which was really great for us and the great thing about because we're operating in different blockchains you can actually use igare to do very very optimistic like hyper optimistic message passing with the corrupto economic security that you get instead of like

waiting 15 to 20 minutes and some message passing protocols you can do this in two to three seconds and it's perfect for the user experience that we're cating on the product um so we're using it for our case yeah that's been pretty much it so crypto allows us to do things faster obviously with uh with um with IG which is quite exciting for us right and then we can also there's cool things around like there's the layer Z dvn there's that Wormhole is building something called um modular modular verifiers you can just plug in um for networks that Wormhole doesn't go you can just plug your Val set which is like 20 to 40 operators now you can goow it later uh and you can just go there and you're the case so you're kind of the info provider going to these new chains

that maybe Wormhole hasn't integrated yet so that's the opportunity with I layer the the number of assets that are available for reaking is somewhat limited right you know if I take the example of symbiotic you have just like a much larger scope of assets that can be utilized in in in reaking so you take Babel on right you have like the entire Bitcoin ecosystem where where does that leave uh nff in terms of being able to accommodate for like a large number of assets yeah we can support a lot the assets that ion hasn't traditionally supported so all l1's and l2s as long as we can create erc20 version on on ethereum L1 um it's not like your traditional WRA token because your WRA

token you can take your WP token and take it elsewhere like you can trade it on Unis swap you can do other things the mirror version we create can only go to igare so it's almost like you enshrining near liquidity from directly from the near blockchain to igler so that has special properties so we're pretty much the partner to expand the asset selection on I that has not been traditionally available to the market and there's been interest to Alternative assets like Bitcoin has been one even near for old AI um ABS is near has been interesting there's obviously people want to sometimes take usdc it's it's still hard in a very sort of 4% um interest rate environment to kind of

justify that but you can to we you know we launched virtual staking so there's been interest for that we got 15 to 20 million committed from the day one to to stake so it like our goal is to just basically any asset could be able to tap into a shared security Market pretty much right okay interesting and so yeah coming back to maybe the near da aspect you know you talked earlier that you guys came out of the Neo ecosystem I'm not super familiar with near da so like I know Celestia fairly well like aan Le so what's the difference how does near near da stand out and um yeah how should people be thinking about like near DA's role within nuffle yeah it's a project that be used currently internally uh

there are still a couple of rollups that are using it um but mainly it is using um n's own data availability so we we we built that solution red near uh we launched that well near in 30 days that was an amazing experience because the team would like bonded in that experience of like we need to launch something qu pretty fast um it has tole rollups on it but it's not currently something that we advertise it's part of our stack that Ables to uh part of AV gu that stores pretty cheap data and in a decentralized manner but it's literally just nears own da and how is it different from Celestia like yeah it's uses sharding so it has six different shards every Shard can get bunch of

throughput and it's quite exciting because you can you know you can near Scales infinitely with with shards and the main thing is like we we hack near protocol to store the blobs at a certain you know like 7 to2 hours period that gets a very cheap even if you were to store something on a smart contract that would be more expensive than what we do but it's it's something like it's a solution that we provided for um for the etherum MS at the time now we're using that to store any um sort of sequence blockchain sequence on on near okay so so a few rollups are using it but I mean is there like an active kind of Business Development uh function within near to to grow the usage of near da so we were

the once the couple of things that are a bit critical to say it's a very bad business model so it is very cheap yeah it's very cheap it doesn't it doesn't help like you know you also don't control the rollup itself because you're just basically storing data so the reason why we internalize a product rather than selling is well it's just um you know like it's not it's not like a like Dex or like Dex experience where there's training happening there's a lot of like you know the where the yield comes from right in a deck right because people just want to buy sell tokens we didn't see it that way it was a very sort of we love the tech on near when we're building it it was like this is an amazing solution we can build but when we realized we're like this is just not

going to sustain the business value we we've decided that we'll just use it internally in our product pretty much okay got so like you guys are sort of the only ones that are using it to that to this extent right like more or less there is still products using it like rss3 is using it on the uh in their rollup there's couple on the test net but we're not like actively doing business follow mod for it okay and do you have any other kind of touch points with near like the near Main net uh yeah we find chain signatures pretty exciting so especially now that the through has been increased it is a decentralized NPC Network that we can utilize to do all the things that I mentioned before right it's Doge xrp all these assets like

traditionally Bridges find it pretty hard to go we can just take them and then we can use them on near and then send message pass through uh all the different chains so that's pretty exciting um and we're you know we're we're quite excited to kind of contribute there but that's the main near stock we're using as the as the chain signatures and obviously the ads uses NE da so pretty much like taking near modalizing a little bit because there's good parts of near that's why I joined the space and then opening that up and sort of verticalized excites us excites it team okay so so you're using yeah this this NPC functionality I I did an episode with uh with Ilia um just a little while back where we talked a lot about this

and um and also the the AI component uh is this something that you guys are also looking forward to and perhaps implementing within nuffle like this kind of AI component yeah yeah we so we the first thing we launch is obviously virtual staking that can contribute to their stack right the game stack which we're quite excited about the second thing is we've been internally thinking about this product and have an ecosystem partner building it soon that we're we'll probably announce in March is that you can take Stables from anywhere and let's say put an AI strategy manager just like in Moro and then find the best yield or the basically could be like a traditional AI model not an llm because llms are very probabilistic in a sense

but the traditional model like regression models they're very they're almost like they're not problemistic they're deterministic um so you get strategy manager and sort of divert the stable coin to any Market that you get the best yield due the rebalancing with an AI model is something super interesting because we can use the same in Forever building uh say you have a stable Co Solana say you have stable coin base take all these deposits and find the best yields and rebalance across the chain so that's one of the ecosystem projects are building that is quite exciting um yeah also we have an internal testet product that um one of our one of actually external engineer built it and then we hired him which was

quite interesting he was contributing on in open source and he was like killing it and we're like let's just hire this guy he's been amazing which allows you to sort of bet on AI Agents from any chain so you can sit on like near you can sit on um you know base you just you know be like this is going to be the guy that's going to win the win the debate and you can you know you you can basically bet on the bet on the agent so those are the ones that were working it's part of the stack obviously right because if you're building a multichain b system with the message passing there would be every some use cases obviously so let's I'd like to talk about this this fast finality layer and where it sits in the STA experience improvements people will see from from this fast

finality L yeah so it is a generalized message passing we have our own valou set obviously and it it allows you to do sort of two to three second message passing across different chains it is an experience that is going to allow you pretty much you know if you're an xrp you took your xrp you're going to like we're going to Min the xrp on the back end in let's say base and then you'll get that in like three to four seconds finality which is quite exciting like it's it's not been available before it's obviously through near so it sits almost like if you think about the stack there is vaults everywhere it's almost like boring WTS if you've seen them before which was the the V ey guys built it but then you can take that and change it to be a multi-chain bolt structure you can

get deposits from different evm chains also using the chain to get xrp Doge all the other assets on top of that you can just message pass across the chains and that's where you get the the sort of the block and mint functionality and on the in the front end users just going to see like hey I'm GNA put XP into this um this Vault and I'm going to contribute to Moro um so that comes from the whole stack of of of of Nu info pretty much and what's the in the uh the integration lift for def5 protocols that want to onboard these nuffle assets so like say like nuffle xrp or what what are you calling these nuffle assets is like n and then the asset name what are you call yeah let's call for n xrp now but

let's say n xrp goes to yeah lending markets right so like is is there is like is is it permissionless to on board these assets can anybody create these assets so like if I have if I'm like you know a big holder of I don't know cardano can can I just like spin up a nuff wrapped version of this over on ethereum and start building vaults over on Moro or does it require some um some intervention from nle it's a good question so um at the beginning we'll pretty much build it ourselves just like when you're building a platform you want to obviously showcase it so we'll probably focus on one asset and do that really well because you don't want to go

to Moro or you don't want to go to a deep liquidity marketplace where you don't have deep liquidity for people to kind of borrow and lend right so going to going to focus on that but ideally people can just come in use our volts spin up like a new product and you can build like a cardono let's say as long as we you know we built the railway to do that because there needs to be there needs to be some work needs to be done on chain signature side but on the other side it's quite easy like def5 protocols just like accepting erc20 on evm which erc20 actually evm is an amazing interoperability machine right if you think about it like all these chains you know you've done a smart contract boring wolt work everywhere you can just like deposit it there and then as long as you

deposit a boring volt it just works out of the box with all these like starting from Pendle to Moro the big D5 protocols so V5 protocols is fine uh permissionless ones we can just go create them um this permission ones obviously that requires sometimes Dow votes like a but it like the way people do it is you know you go to um you go to Moro you proove the use case and then OB opens up a market after that right so that's what we want to work with one asset only and with large liquidity but yeah so on the on the on the defi side it's pretty easy on the cardano side obviously we need to build the um buil a railroad to do that but it's it's not that complicated to do that either okay yeah um so who are the different actors here in the system and

what are their roles from the nuffle chain itself all the way to like the contracts on the individual chains being deploying those assets and like how are these different actors participating I guess like take me through a user flow you know and where the participants are kind of touching the assets so users let's say traditional users they'll just see the front end they'll just deploy let's say xrp into a front end and say Hey I want this to go to Moro AR for is being used pretty much to do the whole um whole sort of locking and minting and once you go to obviously lending protocol there's always a strategist like like me Capital you know 7 that just comes in and creates a strategy for

you and um pretty much does the whole work and then returns you to yield right so that's one and that's pretty much it so strategies users and nuffle doing this I also tend to think there's also the validators of the network right so there's the validators of the nefil network yeah I guess you also have the validators of the near uh which is which is the NPC that's securing the assets yeah yeah pretty much yeah yeah pretty much and then there's also the if you want to take a step back and try to figure out how this looks like it actually is a three-sided Marketplace so like the users and pretty much I'm say I'm going to say like AI agents that are holding crypto assets that's number one

because they benefit from just earning more yield from their tokens that they couldn't before uh there's the obviously the alt like L1 tokens or L2 chains on L2 basy chains their assets were able to use on different chains so you can unlock them and then the D5 protocols pretty much get more liquidity that they weren't able to get before which is like xrp Doge all these assets that are sitting in pretty much large market cap um so that's how I want to kind of phras like almost a three-sided Marketplace okay interesting um I guess like in terms of the risk right so um where does where where does a user have to consider risk of the assets that they're holding is the risk the same

across all of the different assets or are there different risk profiles and what is in what is imposing that risk yeah that's a good question so staking currently to slashing is not live yet fully in uh in IG so it's pretty much like smart contract risk at this point yeah so you're getting you're getting almost like emissions so the risk you're taking on the other side is obviously while you're trusting the our operators that they will do the work that they'll do that's one and then I guess you if you're using a if you're xrp or Doge you're trusting uh sort of a party like a part decentralized party to basically

say that there's certain things happen on that chain I'm going to pass that to the other chain um so those are the risk you're taking and obviously smart contract risk right like if something happens on Moro um you you are taking the smart contract risk so that's that's the that's the that's pretty much like there's a couple of risks you're taking but it's still in my mind way better than just trusting one party like an FDX or something that happened before with the assets than like trusting a bunch of other decentralized parties yeah no I guess I think that's true taking a step back here I I think there's one thing that can be said which is still true in crypto is that we don't yet have really seamless experience that can rival centralized exchanges we don't have you

know I think there's sort of three things that are missing or maybe that some chains have but none of them have all of it right so there's the decentralization SL censorship resistance there's the user experience and then there's the performance typically like products will have two of those but we haven't seen one that really has all three uh and I would add maybe that user experience also includes onboarding and the ability for users to very quickly get access to assets that's a whole other problem with kyc and compliance and regulation that I'm not convinced we're going to get through unless unless as a pullback on that like where do you see the end game in terms of being able to rival centralize ases and mhm how far do you think we are from that and what role does Neel play

here yeah so no kyc is something interesting right because it's all the onchain products almost have no kyc like if you're buying something on Unis swap the only problem there is the offramp onramps are PR to break that are pretty hard to break and it's something that like whole industry is working on and every found right talked is like ah look like I'm going to create this best experience but I have this one round problem that is really hard for me to solve I think there would be products that are like going to be way easier to do that like I haven't found a better solution than like like moonay or something that like but that is like the US is more strict on these things usually like there's certain products I saw elsewhere that didn't require kyc going even onchain from from other

places so I like that is obviously maybe I'm optimistic about like certain things proving but also like I understand the kyc perspective of like if something is going on with the with the chain right if you you know some money laundering it's easier to catch them with kyc than no kyc right that's the that's the one thing um but I I'm once you get in there so let's take off R War experience once you get in there it should be pretty simple like trading I think a lot of people are taking really good steps um for example infinex is switch is a great product if you've tried it for you can just go from any chain to any chain in like a couple seconds with intens at the background that also uses chain

signatures for nonpar contract chains there's particle x a universal X by particle Network that has done a great job I've I've traded a little bit there too which was uh a great experience to buy anything from salana to um base but what I want to Center us is like the earning side right I want to make sure that if you're in any chain you should be able to have access to earning opportunities elsewhere obviously knowing the risk right do the risk of like what ire provides you what morha provides you what let's say out into a pool on Solana provides you so I want to be able to make sure that you don't do that you don't do the take the step of like two three different front ends you just come to our front end and being able to provide liquidity in in one goal

with something similar to like almost earn product on a centralized exchange done sort of a bit more depth than uh what centralized exchanges offer yeah I I I think that uh you know coming back to the kyc I feel like crypto becoming compliant is is crypto playing someone else's game you know we're playing we're playing traditional finances game you know kyc in compliance was invented by trafi because they didn't have well I think there's a couple of reasons so one that technology is very hard to get like the complete state right so it's hard to get the complete state of the system with in traditional Finance because everything is locked away in in

databases whereas blockchains have everything's online like everything's public right like you you you don't need special access or special permission to get access to that information so that in itself is I think a a reason or an argument for there to be less compliance on um on blockchains and the other thing is that there is a like a lot of hypocrisy in traditional Finance where we have organizations like the fhf that are enforcing kyc and compliance and also to some extent you know forcing countries to become compliant less they have a worse compliance rating and therefore maybe have you know worse rates on loans Etc but but basically on the other side of that you know you have

Banks like TD and Canada or HSBC that are committing massive fraud and money laundering at a scale that can just simply not be compared in crypto I do think it is adver adversarial and I think as an industry we need to we need to figure out ways to well make sure that there isn't rampant crime on the infrastructure that we're building but at the same time like doing kyc is helping no one and it's stopping basically no crime yeah in fact it's probably costing more than the crime it's meant to stop so um well it's kind of cash right people do stop people do crime with cash but it's cash bad knowing do you have to get kyc to get cash probably not right like that's I mean you don't Cas actually

yeah but Europe up for instance it's like you can't pay cash transactions above a certain amount are illegal and and that I think puts us in in a sets us on a path that I think that is not desirable where effectively the financial system becomes privatized because or at least the use of money becomes privatized because then anytime you want to make a transaction that's more than $1,000 or maybe at some point even less you are constrained to use a private actor's system your constraint to use a bank effectively and and I think that crypto is meant to be the the antidote to that but we are as an industry trying to become compliant trying to become regulated and in the longterm view you know if we're going down the rout of potential for surveillance Etc it's um it doesn't set us on the right on in the right

trajectory and certainly not within the ethos of the original idea for crypto especially like if I'm buying let's say I'm buying an asset on base if it's backed by like coinbase like what's the point of that you know like I rather buy the asset directly with that decentralized party right that's what the that's what the but I don't know the answer to the kyc question like it's probably some sort of lobbying some sort of like teaching people in power to to move like move the needle it is though maybe there's like maybe ZK Tech or some of the technology that we have could be used to kind of improve that experience right like you can only reveal certain things if there's like very bad thing going on that you know like you want to kind of figure out what's going on with this party I would argue that even

actually have the banks the bank system you don't know who is actually kind of money laundering here you can actually kind of you can go to a data provider and figure out who's moneya laundering that's the beauty of crypto right or you and me can figure out what the with the money launderer is which is the most exciting thing that did not exist in traditional Finance yeah unfortunately I think it's about power less so than it is about common sense and logic and uh there's there's uh there's even maybe by this time by the time this comes out this law will have already passed but effectively um French the French government uh is is uh uh trying to pass a law which would effectively make every single transaction above $11,000 uh an automatic um uh an

automatic notification to uh to the um to track like some kind of track Shen right which is some kind of uh governing body that uh that oversees transactions and um looks for suspicious activity effectively making every transaction over $1,000 suspicious so uh it's it's sort of Bleak outcome I think um I'm not super optimistic that we're going in the right direction but we do need to keep to keep moving the needle and keep fighting for what I think is right which is you know transparent systems permissionless systems where consenting adults are able to engage in Commerce and do business together without um without the state having uh having the final word whether about whether or not that's possible but yeah we're diverging

a little bit here no in general like like it's it's Founders like we have this discussion Founders need to be always optimistic in a way right because there's always there's always like some at you at at every moment in life right it's it's like something to keep as a Founder you should be optimistic that everybody's optimistic around you right like that's the um that's the M up until there's something really bad going on that you need to kind of figure out um yeah but yeah that's that's that's my Moto as been the motto and you know that's why you take risks more than other people in certain cases but yeah yeah so what's on the road map and what can people expect from NL in the next you know six months or a year yeah there's a lot of interesting things

coming we have bunch of announcements that are coming related to the product for Sak from anywhere uh working on a one big asset that I'm excited hope so that we announce it by this time that we want to kind of seed liquidity around in in crypto so if you guys want to learn obviously uh follow us at n Labs on Twitter follow me on obviously M tar on on Twitter I'm the main kind of the chap Chief VI officer for the company which is uh we have yeah Chief yapper um which ypp has been a great word when we're creating this today um but um quite excited uh we have a lot of interesting folks in in the company too Jin who does um he's he's ex J who does like a lot of AI marketing things on Twitter that does

gets a lot of attention and um our our CTO of FR has been very involved in a lot of AI um a open source tooling like at some point we've been like top 20 or top 30 contributed to Aid when everything was like getting integrated to a that was kind of interesting to see but overall yeah super excited the timelines uh there's a lot of there's a test n coming up in in March that it's going to be quite exciting cool well thanks so much for coming on and talking about nuffle um very exciting stuff and uh yeah excited to start using it at some point and moving my uh my dinosaur assets over into defi I must have some Doge somewhere I still have it uh on an old wallet and I'd love to be a to

utilize utilize that liquidity uh you know in defi so yeah thanks thanks for again [Music] [Music]