Hivemind: Where Do Crypto Markets Go Next?

Transcript

until we see more certainty return to like yeah these DATs and whatnot um people just aren't really wanting to buy crypto right now I think because it's just like yeah there's a lot of uncertainty and while Bitcoin does look fine I think like just the fact that gold's ripping and that we saw equity alltime highs just means like and Bitcoin is kind of just chopping is like I don't know it's not always a good sign I know it normally lags a little bit but like you'd want to see Bitcoin uh go up here regardless of alts in my opinion Hello everybody. Welcome to another

episode of the Hive Mind podcast. My name is Cedrus. Uh Jose is not on so I'm doing the intro today. We've got a bit of a different lineup today. We've got myself. I'm head of research at Deli. We've got Jason who's head of markets. We've got Yan who is uh partners uh v uh partner ventures partner ventures partner. No no no just leave it. It's fine. Nice. And uh and we got LTR who actually has a new stream that's been on Twitter um that you've probably seen. Hopefully you've seen it. If you haven't, go check it out. Um and he is on he's on the markets team. He's also just kind of

like everywhere uh within the Deli Research Squad. Yeah, I think uh there's actually a lot that's kind of been happening over the past couple weeks. I think first and foremost, we just want to talk about I think Jackson Hole actually was like after our last podcast and a lot has kind of happened since then. There was what was seen as like a really dovish Jackson Hole and then prices pumped and then they've kind of like dumped over the last couple days. Um, seems like Salana has regained a bit on like uh the BTC and like ETH ratios.

There's definitely been a bit of a Salana rotation, but uh yeah, I don't know. The markets don't look like amazing right now. I think they look like fine, but it is like a lot of chop with uh with kind of like pump coming back over the past week. So, how are people kind of feeling about this right now? Jason, I think you wrote something the other day about like kind of like two paths on the portal, I guess. Yeah. I'll just start with like my overall thought on Bitcoin. Like I just think uh pretty much from like like mid August pretty much from like August through like August and September, I've I've just like generally been cautious about it for for a few reasons. One, like seasonality generally at this time is is not been historically great for for Bitcoin and crypto markets. It's

usually a period of like, you know, chop, sometimes pullbacks in in September towards like the um the tail end of Q3. Uh so you have you have that seasonality aspect of things that I'm just always, you know, cautious about. Number two, like when I look at like the Jackson Hole thing as well as like you know, everybody looking at rate cuts in in September, um I kind of look at it as like almost priced in at this point. like we've had at like a year at this point of people just expecting rate cuts at every meeting and then kind of coalesing around the the expectation of okay, we're not going to get until September after Jackson Hole. Um, and then you kind of saw over the last

couple weeks like some mixed uh economic data come in. And then you had like the like the CME Fed Watch tool which kind of tracks like the market probabilities for future um Fed funds rate. So like rate cuts um kind of oscillate, right? So like prior to that you had like pretty much 99% uh probability of a rate cut in September and then we got some mixed data data prints uh after that and then you saw rate cuts kind or rate cut probabilities drop like 15 20 30% from that you know almost guaranteed level to you know 70 80% which is still like very much like guaranteed but market obviously kind of reacted to that and then kind of since Jackson all we've started to climb back up and I I was

looking at it the other day But I just pulled it up and yeah, like the uh market probabilities for the September 17th Fed meeting is uh 97.6% expecting a 25 basis point rate cut. So like when I look at that, I'm like, okay, like most of like that I guess expectation or I guess speculative nature around like rate cuts um is probably priced in. So, I'm like looking at that as probably not really much of a not really much of like a short-term thing, right? I think like generally speaking, three, six months after a rate cut. I was looking at a study the other day actually um where somebody looked at each of the scenarios in which we've had

like a pause for at least 6 months before like or I guess since the like most recent rate cut uh until the next rate cut and like what the market looks like and generally speaking like obviously the sample size for Bitcoin is small but when you look at it for for the S&P uh the majority of the time uh it's up uh 3 months later 6 months later um in that kind of scenario and I think like it has like a sample size of eight going back to the to the mid90s and then I guess 10 or 12 sample size when you go back even further to the 70s but when you look at like from the 90 the sample is is is what 6 months in between rate cuts you said. So yeah, so like the the scenario is like um when the Fed has been like on pause for six

plus months, like how does the market perform after they cut after that pause? Uh looking forward for like a 3-month period or a six-month period. And the majority of the time it's up 3 months after and 6 months after. So like when I look at it like that, like on on the short-term time frame, like I don't really think this this rate cut's going to do do too much because I think like I said, it's mostly priced in. But on the longer term time frames, I think it's probably, you know, generally bullish through year end and into and and into Q1. That said, uh one thing that we wrote about on the markets team, it was Marcus actually wrote about like the TGA refill. So the Treasury general account TGA uh has been depleted for the most part and it needs to refill, right? So

what that means is it effectively just like drains liquidity from other parts of the market, refills the TGA so they can spend out of that account. Like very simple explanation of it and that generally it's underway now and I think there's about like $250 billion left worth of TGA refill capacity that they need to do and we're seeing uh you know good absorption of that. We're seeing demand for for treasuries and things like that. So there isn't too much of a liquidity shock there. But when I was looking at this like a week or two ago, it's just another thing that's like, okay, August, September, I'm not going to like take too much risk on, you know, general market direction. And I'm generally going to wait for the seasonality, the rate cut thing and the TGA refill and and liquidity drain from

that to kind of, you know, run its course and then probably get more bullish into, you know, end of Q3, into Q4 and and year end. Um, and I think that it's generally kind of like playing out like you're seeing that like with Bitcoin. like it's just very choppy. Um, very sideways. I mean, I think to your point, et looks fine. Um, and then obviously there's some technical things that I've like tweeted out about like short-term momentum. Like all of it's just kind of tapped out to an extent. You have the DAT buyers. Um, the big one with Sailor kind of, you know, being tapped out of buying capacity with MNAV being kind of depressed. So, I just think this period is like a time to like not take excessive risk uh and just kind of like wait till you get like pullbacks into like decently good areas. Like I

think Bitcoin's probably at like a decent area. I could probably drop another. I mean on on the MNAVs like all of them are under one except for Sailor who still has like a 135 to55 considering how you measure it. But like if you look at the ETH ones and the Solana ones that are outstanding, they're all like under I think as of this morning they were like 9591, but they're also kind of dumping pretty hard right now. They're both down like 10% today. So their MNAV is probably like sub.9 now. What's like the like how do you think about this? Like I know there's no forced unwind, but yeah, that's the important thing, right?

So I don't think there's a I mean I'm not super familiar with every single, you know, DAT and what their financing structures look like. But generally speaking, there isn't like a force unwind or anything like that, right? So I think I mean the way I think about it is like the selling pressure comes from like the expectation that these vehicles are tapped out. So then people kind of like okay well like if people were buying to frontr run DATs for you know soul or ETH or Bitcoin and now the capacity for these DATs to issue shares or you know sell shares to to to buy the underlying no longer exists. the market might front run to the, you know, the opposite direction and and kind of sell because the big buyers, uh, at least over the last couple months are no

longer buying. Like that's that's my main view of it. And it kind of like aligns with just like the seasonality, the liquidity. Like it's all like a bunch of [ __ ] going on at the same time where it's like, eh, I'm not really in love with taking risk in any of these assets at this moment. like I have, you know, core positions that I'm not selling that I have from lower that I'll continue to build um on dips. But like yeah, I think it's more of a and I'm curious like maybe what Yon or LTR thinks, but I think it's more of like an expectation around like their capacity to buy. And if if there is no expectation that they can buy or they don't have that capacity, you probably go through this little bit of chop and and pull back.

I think there's a lot of uncertainty just like in general, equities, Bitcoin, crypto. And I think we've seen that with just like how much gold is exploding cuz it's like I think in general when people don't know what to do they kind of just buy gold and like that's just kind of like okay well at least I won't get you know hammered in gold really like I can just kind of chill there and I think like until we see more certainty return to like yeah these DATs and whatnot um people just aren't really wanting to buy crypto right now I think because it's just like yeah there's a lot of uncertainty and while Bitcoin does look fine I think like just the fact that gold's ripping and that we saw equity all-time highs just means like and Bitcoin is kind of just chopping is like

I don't know it's not always a good sign. I know it normally lags a little bit but like you'd want to see Bitcoin uh go up here regardless of alts in my opinion. Yeah. I mean on the that stuff no force unwind but you know to some degree there is an element of of whoever acts first is going to benefit the most right. Who sells first sells best is what you're saying. Yeah. Well, I mean, if you're doing the the sell underlying and buy MNAV below one trade, buy your share. Yeah, the AR, right? Because that that is like the trade, right, for the that like Yeah, they they sell shares above MNAV one and buy shares below. Um, and how do they buy it? They sell the underlying. I don't know how many will do that. I I don't think you it really like it's that

attractive to do it here. Um, you know, if they have a further collapse then then maybe. But I mean the I guess the the one bullish surprise catalyst that you haven't you don't see it's talked about a little bit but not too much is is basically um micro strategy or strategy now qualifies for the SNP but they uh the decision is is by committee and and that won't happen that that actually happens tomorrow. Uh we're recording Thursday. So if the decisions made Friday, I think markets both um in terms of Bitcoin price and and just um I think there's a a poly market for it, but I don't know how much volume it's trading there. Like

the market's sending a pretty low probability to it, rightfully so. It's um there's plenty of of names that that haven't really gotten in despite qualifying. So just check ticking all the boxes generally isn't enough. Um, so there there's a world where, you know, I think the the the more likely path is it happens in December. Um, and and certainly that that would be, you know, a a massive catalyst just based on the amount of rebalancing that index funds and ETFs will have to do to add Micro Strategy to their uh, holdings. You got to assume it's probably in the like 11 figure range. Yeah, that would be crazy bullish because then you just have also in perpetuity essentially sailor just

gets to like sell new issuance to retirees passively. Yeah, there's there's a really cool chart uh some some we can share in the notes I forgot. It's uh some guy posted it. Basically, somebody did an analysis of how much dry powder goes into stocks from 401k purchase on daily basis. I think Nvidia's 95 or 100 million bucks a day of bid from 401ks. Obviously, they're the biggest, but just an indication of of kind of the sheer size. It's actually insane. Yeah.

And so, you think that probably is like a year-end type thing as opposed to tomorrow? At best. At best. Yeah. I mean, it would be pretty nuts if it happens tomorrow, but trading right now. It ain't looking like tomorrow. Absolutely. I was I was literally pulling up the chart while you were talking. I'm like, "O." Yeah, dude. It's horrible right now. People were saying like the insiders. No, dude. It's like my age. Look. Yeah. I mean, he's selling he's definitely selling shares, too, right? Just based on I think they they bought back like uh 400 500 million last week or so. And and so, you know, that wasn't through preps. That was from kind of going back on those rules. So, it's definitely appearing in the chart. But, yeah, broadly it seems like everyone's

kind of coalesing around a handful of names, which which makes sense, right? Right. It's it's actually probably healthier because it it creates a a better riskadjusted opportunity to make cap make make profit if if you know it's just concentration around quality and it's kind of just been the the revenue meta which is just an indication of kind of evolution of the space and and to some degree the degree of froth we're seeing, right? It's not a very frothy market where everyone just kind of wants to is not really taking flyers but rather taking lower upside bets. Again, it's like we still haven't really changed the theme at all. You kind of just get like a select few assets every once in a while that do well. Then everything else is kind of just like [ __ ] the bed and

there's there's like a good week there of Salana and then Pump has kind of been the main performer now. I think it's worth mentioning the the Pokemon card stuff though, like this TCG stuff. Yeah. Have you been Have you used it? I'm not a card guy, unfortunately. Well, I guess kind of fortunately, honestly, like I don't really want to be, but um so like I I just didn't use it because honestly I not because I didn't think it was good, just because I I don't do Pokemon cards. I'm not really into them. But the collector cry like gotcha thing was really big. I know Thread Guy had the the guy on um yesterday and the more interesting part about that is like the Eevee is positive for like the gotcha.

So, it's like it rewards players more. Like, you're seeing a lot of guys like like win in a sense. And can you explain that a little bit more? I'm I'm not sure everybody's going to be super familiar with with how that works. So, it's just like, you know, Casino House always wins, you know, like so if you're playing some sort of gotcha or some sort of quote unquote random game, like on average you're going to lose and that's like how they make their money. Um, so like with this gotcha, I don't know all the the economics of like how they then turn a profit, but essentially like on average you're you're going to win more. And I think like probably they're doing this just for like a zero to one strategy for collector cry uh for collector cards that this is the platform I'm talking about cards. Like

it's purely on the gacha. So I don't think it's on like the normal pack openings or whatever, but like uh in like the the fun gambling vending machine got gacha thing. uh you're going to win more often and I think that's like been a really good driver of like their their zero to one on Twitter is like people are actually winning they're posting about it flywheel more people join etc etc the issue with these TCGs that's popping up is there's no grails on them quote unquote grails and what I mean by that are like the Charizards that are worth you know $50 $100,000 like no one's pulling insane stuff like the the the biggest thing I saw was like oh someone opened a $20 pack and got a $300 card which is like cool but in like crypto that's like, "Okay, cool, dude.

You made, you know, 280 bucks. Let's go, bro." Like, that's just like not a big uh crypto mindset thing. So, I don't know. It'll be interesting. Like, it's kind of funny that we've gone down the risk curve so much. We're literally at pure gambling right now. Like, we are just like gambling on Pokemon cards. Like, we're not even buying meme coins. We're just like, you know, at this point, we're like, "Ah, crypto doesn't even matter anymore. Let's just open Pokemon packs while we're bored." Uh, so I think it's kind of like a a state of the market type of thing. Yeah. I I think it was good that Salana got that. If you think about like the there's basically two general purpose chains now that people use and it's Salana and Bass like Bass has done a pretty good job of getting a lot of

these kind of like social things. They've had like Zora, they had this football thing obviously they had Frenech like a few years ago. Uh but that was still like a good shot on goal. And so there's really like two it's basically Salana versus base for a lot of these kind of things. And I think Salana I think Salana got kind of humbled with like Hyperlquid and then the Ethats and then Bass getting some of these things over the past like few months. So I think it was good for them to like get one of these organic things come up again and yeah and then of course with like the whole like creator coin uh streaming stuff like how do you guys feel about like the pump fund creator coins in streaming?

Like do you think those are going to have legs or I think it's just hard because yeah as a streamer LTR now now that you're a streamer what do you think about it because like the the meme coins on Salana haven't with this whole pump rally it's like it's ultimately been pump like people are just buying pump they're not buying even like like even like Fcoin and other pump coins and other meme coins it's just all going into pump right yeah I think the issue with the streamer coins right now is just like there's not really a reason to own them. And what I mean by that is because the attention doesn't translate into bids.

Like Gainy was blowing up on Twitter and like his stream coin was just flat at like 5 mil like the entire time. Like he was just like having all these clips blow up on Twitter about his blow up about this and about that and people just watched his stream and watched the clips. They didn't really buy the streamer token. like until there's some sort of mechanism that's like very clear on oh Gany is blowing up on stream, we can buy this token to then profit off of that. Um I just don't see like how that goes about. And also like I think it's worth mentioning and I know this brings brought up a lot but like Twitch and Kick don't turn a profit uh as solo businesses. Like Twitch is subsidized by Amazon, Kick is subsidized by Stake.

like they're they're kind of marketing heads for for other products and they work very well at that. Like Twitch earns a lot from affiliate deals on Amazon like through their you know whatever. Um but like and then Kick obviously earns a lot for stake and whatnot but uh so it'll be interesting to see how Pump Fund like tries to turn this into a more profitable business model. I do think the Pump Swap stuff is cool because streamers don't have to sell any tokens to earn money. they can just basically earn fees by locking their pump fund but their pump their tokens their allocation into like a pump swap LP pool and earn fees in perpetuity but that like all requires volume right and so like that that's the that's kind of the issue I think I think that the parallel is is eh I mean I agree that

those businesses don't turn a profit but I think that the business models here are pretty different in in terms of what's driving the revenue um I I I it's kind of like tapping into a a more deny gambling type universe. I think that the the concern you mentioned where it's not tied is is a big one, right? Particularly because you need some runners to open up the the ceiling the the of the kind of the of the universe of of value here and and and if you can have one or two that run for some reason, then it really fuels the the kind of the loops in terms of the specul speculation in all the underlying ones.

Um, so like what they're doing basically right now is is is uh trying to find a lot of these organic streamers, right? So you either go top to the to the Kaisen or something like that and you pay them exorbitant amounts of money or you try and go longtail. And so they're like sending out streaming kits to a lot of these um you know upand cominging or or people that want to stream they can reach out and and and get those. I think that that's that's pretty interesting. Um, and then the stories of what they make is actually is I think is is decently compelling where, you know, there was a a guy who posted a thread about how he's a successful streamer. I forget if it was on Twitch or Kick, but basically he tried to start from zero and and just couldn't do it. He tried,

you know, it's like really really difficult to to get any form of following. And so Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and and so you know that that's pretty bearish for longtail streamers on on those platforms whereas you have you know people that will come on here and they'll make 300 bucks on the on the on the the worst end and some some guys are making you know four figures in in a matter of hours and so um I agree it's like it it needs some more tie-in to be sustainable but there's just this long tale of of people and then there's a world where it kind of evolves into what happened on um on on on in Black Mirror where it's pay me to pull out my fingernails and and whatever else is in between. And so there there's that world too. Like I

think that'll probably get blocked by I feel like we already had a bit of that world. Yeah, we did. When they first introduced her to take it down like it's funny because when they first Yeah. When they first did streaming, everybody was like, "Oh, this is not going to go well." And then it did not go well. But really bad. But like the what the streaming is now, I think makes a lot of sense. And to be completely honest with you, like I've always sh I've never wanted to like myself launch a token. I've always stayed away from stuff like this. I've never launched a token. Um I'm not going to do it, but like there is a part of me that is kind of enticed by streaming.

There is like no, but there is a small part of me that's like, you know, the the the main issue I have is just like what happens when I stop streaming? It's just like what my token goes to zero. And that's like I don't like the eventual kind of like rug in that sense. But I do think the whole you can just lock your token up or like the creator fees. Um it if you're a small account or a small streamer, you know, you're trying to like make it. It is pretty enticing. Like especially as more people do it, the more people that do it, the more kind of like derisks derisked it'll be from like a social perception. Like man, if you if you think back like three years ago, what people used to think was

like unethical to like if you launched a token like two cycles ago, you were like excommunicated from crypto Twitter forever. I saw hilarious post. Even a ref link was like Yeah, ref links were super frowned upon and now you got I mean, they're still kind of Yeah. relative to what what other people are doing these days, it's like saintly behavior almost. He was like uh he uh quote tweeted the Mitch launch. He's like because Mitch had launched like 26 tokens on Pump Fund. He's like I would have gotten crucified back in 2016 if I had launched like 26 tokens. It was just funny because we have like definitely like everything is becoming more and more normal. Um but yeah, I agree with Cedus' points like there is like that element of on Twitch and Kick like you

you pay your subscription, right? And that's like time bound for a month, three months or whatever. there's like an element of, oh, if the streamer stops streaming, like I I'm I'm almost protected in a sense because like I've already paid three months or whatever, whereas like if your streamer stops streaming or if Gainy sells 99% of his tokens or Yeah. But the difference is you don't have to pay to watch, right? So Yeah. And I So there's that element and then it's the fact that, you know, it would be really bad. It's the whole you don't have to sell as a streamer, right? It's it just like nothing spoils the meta faster than a few streamers pumping this thing up and then just dumping and then leaving, right? And then everyone just leaves. And here, if you have this, you know, not a forced lockup, but an

enforced lockup and and monetization through activity, then then there is no like equity-like exit rug that they can perform that just ruins everything. It's my fees go down because I stopped streaming. And yes, the speculative people are going to lose, but ultimately they they were never sold this vision of um uh like that that this is going to go on forever and and that there I think it's just like the lack of exit equity rug is is the big one. I think I think the way you need to look at it if you're buying these streamer tokens is like what I a lot of people donate to streamers streamers and stuff on Twitch and all these other platforms and that's or like

they buy the membership and that's literally money that you don't get back ever again right whereas with the token theoretic theoretically you could get some money back or you could even make money right obviously most people buying these like listen I bought some of these streamer tokens like am I doing it because I want to donate to them no it's cuz like I think they might go up a lot, right? But there is it's kind of like it just changes the model from the I think it's the expectations that's the hard thing. It's the expectations that people if they looked at it like, oh, I would have just been paying for a membership anyways and this money is is would have been gone anyways and now I just get upside then that's good. if they're looking at it like this is like a fundamental investment and like now I'm

going to be pissed at like so many people were pissed at Gainzy and like I get it because he full stacked like his whole I was I was literally I literally had the chart up on my screen because I was looking at it because I mean I do own Gayy like he literally dumped on me and uh I was like wait I was like I was like trying to I was like where's the decimal? I didn't know if it pumped or dumped right out. cuz I was like to his credit, but uh there is like a sell 100% button on the which is horrible. Like I'm sorry it's so bad. Like if you're the dev, there's literally a giant red button that's like sell 100%. You just click it and it automatically doesn't.

There's no confirmation. No, there's not. So there is a real literally full stacked cuz like he accidentally like clicked it and people don't realize that the app has that. And so like if you're the dev of these streamer coins, there needs to be like a are you sure you want to full stack your entire thing? But uh no, I think the funnier part was like the the wallet that somehow bought like 40 bucks at like the pico bottom and sold like 400k profit and then we were like, "Okay, who is that now?" I didn't realize it pumped 100. I guess it like went to zero.

It went to like 12k market cap. The chart it literally has negative. It has a negative number. I don't know that. the chart that I posted in the chat has it literally goes I'm guessing. Yeah, I literally paid to to get to get out of that. Oh, that's so good. But uh No, cuz I saw it went from like it was like 05 and it went to like 01. I was like, wait, is that is that 01 or O? Like I wasn't sure if it had like totally pumped or dumped and then I go and look at the chart and I'm like, oh wow, Gainy definitely there's only one way this could happen is that Gainy sold everything 80% of the support. And then I go to Twitter and it's just like, yeah, this one's going to cost me, isn't it?

I probably won't buy any of these things to be honest. Um, but but I mean, as as it stands today, that can obviously change based on stuff. Uh, I just look at them like I think I think uh Cedus' framing of it makes the most sense at least from like a buyer's perspective. It's like what do you expect like like what are the like kind of like expectations going in, right? would this have been a donation? So like in in like on another platform like would it have been a donation? You don't get any money back. It's just paid money. So like if you kind of take that same expectation for these tokens like you probably not going to be too upset and also pro probably helps you size it better based on you know that expectation. Um but I just like two

orders of magnitude different though. What you donate to the stream and what you Yeah, that's the thing. It's like I would never donate gainy money or like thousands of dollars either or whatever. I think the fundamental issue is just like you need a reason to own these and like I think I think what they can do is that's all they have to there's a world so the same way they had that fund where they tied you know to the top five coins they probably need to allocate a portion of revenue to buy back the the highest viewed streams. So it's not on a market cap basis, on a stream basis and then just ensure that like you know it can't be botted.

That's another thing asking me like how can I automatically see all the streamer coins? I'm like you can't because there's nothing in the metadata or the API that differentiates like a streamer coin from a normal coin. Like you if you're the dev of any Pump Fund coin right now, you can go and stream on it, which is cool, right? Because like uh Mike Dudis did that like he made this M Dudas coin like three three four months ago and then he finally like streamed on it and that was cool. But like there needs to be some form of like in the Pump Fund, you know, website API or whatever where you can pull like these are the top 10 streamer coins right now by market cap or by viewers and like uh I feel like that's that's a pretty lowhanging fruit that they can do

and integrate and I think that would be pretty good. But I agree with you like they need some sort of like yeah if you're a top 10 streamer or maybe it's like uh I don't know like quality hours streamed or there's a lot of cool things. Uh what do you guys think about like so it's kind of similar to like the timef fun thing right like where you can like buy minutes like that like to me seem like I wouldn't buy those either preface um but at least there's like something attached to the minutes or the token or whatever right like for like Anom for example right I think he's like got one of like the higher priced minutes or whatever they're called and at least like you kind of like get something out of that right like you can ask him a question Maybe send him a CA

that he likes and he talks about it and then that go like right like there's a actually something you can like get out of that versus like these tokens whereas like right now there's no mechanism to like no mechanism in place that like Yan was kind of describing. So like look what do you guys think about like those versus like that's actually that's actually one the one that I've been closest to doing and I have the time fund guys DM me a few times to get me to do it. Um because yeah, you feel the thing. This is the thing, right? If they don't respond like you get your money back, right?

Yeah. It's like I I want to like participate more in some of these like experiments and not be like totally hands off. Um I just, you know, I didn't do frenche cuz like I didn't want to launch a friend token and like all this stuff, right? And so I do think Time Fun has the Yeah. probably the best model. At the end of the day, though, you still have like a token with your name that has like a market cap. That's a minute, bro. But, but I don't think they're gonna really get pumped up that much, right? Like tolies is is like I think to timed off token is like a million dollar market cap. I don't know what Ansoms is, but I don't think they go up too much because you are like using it. Um, it is

like a perishable. Yeah. But like at a certain point, isn't that just like [ __ ] or only fans or like I guess just on crypto rails? Like yeah, there are some cool mechanisms, but I think like there's almost a sort of like mental mental goaround if you will that's like this is oh this is crypto but it's like I don't know it's like we've seen this all before like you can do this on many other platforms and I do like timed off on I think that the devs are sharp and done some cool stuff on that. He's made he posted the other day he made like 100k or stuff so far and like if he's providing people with like some some cool knowledge or whatnot I think that's like a great thing. Um but uh yeah it's like I don't know.

Yeah I I think it's a cool it also seems like they're doing something with time. I've seen everyone just posting these pink images on Twitter. Oh that's for Indonesia I'm pretty sure. Uh I think the pink square is for the the flight. Okay. I thought it was a timed offline. Yeah. Yeah, it's the new color of the the Okay. No, that's a geopolitical thing, Cetus. Okay, my bad.

That's the four U tab, dude. No, no, it's it's a good topic though because like Indonesia is undergoing basically like almost a civil war right now. But, uh, basically the Indonesian leader flew to China and then people are like, "Oh, no." Uh, in Indonesia because they obviously don't want to be a communist country. And so like uh pink is like the the new protest color with a lot of the the women there and they're all wearing pink in the protest and so like people are posting a pink square um to like you know thing this was a crypto thing. Wow. I think this just timef fun. I literally thought everybody like why is everyone showing time fun?

Who is this? Uh yeah I'm in a bit too much of a bubble. It's fine. Um, but yeah, I don't know. There's But there's Yeah, there's It's funny. We've had so many different flavors of these creator type things. One will eventually catch on. Like it's very clear there there's an app there's at least some kind of appetite for for this. Um, I'm just like nothing that's come out has been like a clear no no-brainer for me at least. Um, but there's there's certainly an appetite for this type of thing. like it's it's quite clear like I think Fentech like kind of showed the appetite there and then I think it's

just kind of about iterating around um some of the value mechanisms that Jan was talking about and just like making it I don't know there's certainly an appetite like if if you can't see that I think it's it's it's something that I'm keeping an eye out like it's one of the like when when when somebody kind of figures something out it's going to run so hard um Yeah. So, I'm just like kind of biting my time and and waiting and not trying to get chopped up with all the interim iterations.

Crypto Rails makes sense for this sort of thing. I mean, like the the rake that Twitch that only fans that like all these creator platforms take is is absurd. It's kind of like Mastercard or Visa fees. Like, it's just an absurd take. Uh it's kind of like the app store or the Apple app store. So, it's like crypto rails definitely makes sense for this sort of thing if you can give more to the creator but then also earn like a nice fee for yourself without you can basically undercut everything else. But like I think that zero to one of onboarding the the creators is going to be hard but but I agree with like how Pokemon's doing it. I think like like to Yan's point like going bottom up is much better than trying to like attract Tyson. Like I remember back in the day,

uh it was big when Ninja, you know, the number one Fortnite streamer, he got like this huge contract from YouTube to go over to YouTube streaming and like he lost like all of his viewers and like because people just like Twitch better than YouTube. They didn't want to watch YouTube streaming and so like they didn't really care that Ninja moved. They were just like whatever. So, like I think having these like Pump Fund native creators is going to be is going to be much better than just like trying to bribe some Twitch streamer to come over to Pump Fun for sure. Yeah. Ideally, it kind of just functions as organic marketing, right? Uh, wait, he made what? And then that just goes viral.

What do you guys think of when's Plasma CG? Is it this month? It's got to be World Liberty. I mean, no, I think isn't it still trading pre-markets? Yeah. Yeah, but it's been trading premarkets for like a bit now. Yeah. I mean, the actual I mean, do you think these I mean, people were like Plasma and World Liberty going to be like big liquidity drains over the next like month. I think it's World Liberty is not that at this point. The chart is liquidity drain on itself.

It still it still has like a massive market cap, but it doesn't really seem like there's a bid there in liquid markets, which makes sense. People are up so much on that. I mean, it's doing a decent amount of volume, right? So, I mean, it's tough to say how much that's market makers, but versus just organic bids that would have gone elsewhere. I think people are just getting Trump fatigue. like he's got Alt 5, he's got the new American Bitcoin company, they've got World Liberty 5, they've got USD1, which is like kind of the World Liberty Fi, they got Trumpcoin, Melania, like there's just so many things that are liquid now that are like Trump family stuff and it's just like oh my gosh. Like if World Liberty Fi was like the only thing I think would absolutely rip. But like I think we've just been so

fatigued with it at this point that it's like Eric Trump is just the boy who cries wolf and it's just like, "Oh, I don't want to hear from you ever again. Please. Yeah. I mean, it's it it seems like there's a lot more activity from the kids, right? Like Trump is just Trumpcoin and then it's the kids that are running all the other stuff. Trump has no idea what's going on with any of these things. I think he does though because like literally they have like five bill in crypto now. Like they've extracted like there was a number the other day that like alone from World Liberty Fi like they're up to over like plus five billion in the crypto markets alone and like it's relatively new. So they've just come in taken like five bill of our things and just like woohoo. So I think

Trump would notice like a five bill net worth increase but I think is that wait is that five bill in in times their share that's not like part of it is but I think a lot of the other stuff is the uh the bitcoin and then the ETH and then a lot of the the reserves and stuff but still it is still like absurd. No. Yeah. I'm all for grifting in equity markets, right? Because it doesn't cannibalize our bid. Exactly. Yeah. Go do the all five stuff and pump our bags while you're doing it. Like, sure. But like the second you launched this world liberty fine, people get wrecked, bro. Like, I don't know.

I I think I saw that they like they didn't end up giving a anything. They did or did not? Did not. I think they were supposed to give like 2.5% of supply or something and they just said no. Yeah. More than that. I think it was like 7% or something cuz it is like an A fork if I'm not mistaken. And so like I think they were going to give a like a kind of grant thing and like one of them publicly tweeted about it and then another like quote tweeted it or like Stanny or someone from a forgive me if I'm wrong I think tweeted that it was like they were getting a stake and then some random dev from world liberty who had like a Giblly Gibli PFP and people thought it was like a fake account was like no this is false and his bio said

like world liberty team and then so like everyone was scrambling about that but uh No, I don't think they end up caught anything. Damn, it's brutal. I think I think LTR, you just also posted that tweet about the the tempo thing that uh that Matt introduced on Twitter, right? So, more of a payment stable coin type thing. Um, I don't know. It just seems like very clear that like the stable coin narrative is the um at least for me like I'm just thinking of like like how do I want to be like allocated at this point in the cycle? Um I think you you're seeing more people just want stuff that makes money, right?

I know you're probably going to go to there. That's where you were going with that. But it's like yeah, even these stable coin 01 ones it's like dude plasma it's trading at like six bill fully diluted. I mean that are people gonna meme it to like 30 maybe. I don't know. But still it's like on a fundamental basis it really has no business being worth that much. I think a lot of these L1s end up not being a liquid bet though. Like I think Stripe and Robin Hoods is pretty much just like backend. Um yeah like people Yeah. Like Stripe's This is the thing people are always like oh Cosmos is right because everyone's launching at once, right? Cosmos is right about like what companies like want to do. They're not. They were never

right about like what users want, right? And this has been like the problem in crypto doing like app chain thesis is that no user wants it. But yes, for like stuff like Stripe, I mean, people probably aren't even going to be using Stripe's blockchain, right? It's just going to be they're going to be using the Stripe app and it's just going to be their backend rails that are kind of doing this. I think stuff like that is completely fine. you're seeing, you know, there's all these I think some of the like dumbest arguments on CT right now are like which chain is going to be like the institutional chain, right? And you're basically seeing you're seeing everything happen, right? You're seeing you're seeing the the plasma this is the which is kind of like tether uh but

you're seeing like stripe launch their own one circle launch their own L1 Robin Hood does doing the art the L2 route Galaxy is like tokenizing their shares on Salana for like certain reasons right and so you're kind of just going to see a lot of these different architectures or like decisions come out and it really just all depends on what exactly this like institution wants to do, right? Um, and so I think this whole Yeah, I don't know. I find this whole debate to be kind of like mind-numbing because you're kind of seeing people

just do everything at this point. Yeah, I agree. I think like people discount that like companies are going to do what's best for their margins and like stable coins do represent better margins on the bottom line like if you can settle in stable coins and not have to pay all the fees and stuff. So it's like but that doesn't mean that they're going to drive value to like our coins. It could just mean hey they have their own private clearing chain where they do everything on the back end and they replace their backend with crypto rails. But maybe that doesn't benefit any like liquid tradable assets besides like company equity at that point which is like fine cuz I still think it's adoption like it's still going to lead to to more second order effects on like other stuff getting bid. But like on the

whole I think like if you're a company and you see that like onchain rails can provide better margins or better business like why would you want some salana degenerate person to start making like Robin Hood with a hat coin on your chain and then like a bunch of dgens start trading that on your chain which like I think Robin Hood chain is eventually going to become more permissionless if I remember what AJ Warner said about the stylus chain. Um, but like yeah, I think there's like Paxus for instance, they have like a private Ethereum L2 chain where they do like their gold clearing for their like real world gold and their onchain gold. There's like a whole chain that's literally whitelisted for Paxos to be private. Um, so like that's an interesting example of like using onchain rails for like really real

world use cases that are very useful to crypto. Like it's amazing that we can trade, you know, gold onchain with Paxos and it's like legit backed. Um, but that doesn't mean that we need to like be on Paxos chain and like you know using all the Paxos chain stuff or trading meme coins on Paxos chain. So like I think more and more stuff is going to look like that. And I honestly think that's both. Yeah. Like I think that the the the chains that are going to be successful are the ones that just get like the cryptonative use cases and like the cryptonative builders. And cuz all this institutional stuff is not going to be very value creative to any of like the cryptonative tokens or chains, right?

And so that's kind of what you're trying to win. You're trying to win like the social stuff, the like the trading, the per um all of this. And yeah, Paxos will do their accounting on their private chain and Stripe will do their accounting on their private chain. None of these things drive any value to any crypto token. they just make their business better. And like that's fine, but I really think that if you're betting on like an L1 token or like an L2 or whatever, it's really like how many of like the cryptonative products and like builders can you really win. Um that's what's going to like really move the the needle to me.

of all these types of institutional chains, LTR, this is something you've kind of been, I would say, front running for a while now. It's something you've been talking about for months. Uh, at this point, what are you like most excited for? Like crack and ink chain type stuff. Like what are you like most interested by? Well, I mean like I think the hard part is like yeah, there's not really a liquid bet, right? So it's like I can be the most excited about something but have no liquid proxy. Well, yeah. Maybe from like a liquid bet perspective and just like an in general interest type of perspective. I think a liquid bet perspective, I think we've kind of already seen it with ETH. Like honestly, like I think ETH is clearing away like that's what Securitize mostly uses and that's Black Rockck's chain. Black Rockck has taken a

big interest in ETH and I think like EVM is just robust and there's like a reason Robin Hood is using Arbitum L2 and there's a reason like Mantle and stuff are using optimism roll-ups is that EVM is proven, right? there's a big risk of like Stripe making their own L1 versus just like forking Ethereum which is open source and like already like pretty robust, right? And I think we've seen that like a lot of companies don't maybe want to taste take that risk of building something from the ground up and god forbid having some sort of irrevocable hack from Lazarus or whatever. Like I think ETH has been like a liquid bet. I think Salana is another liquid bet. I mean we're seeing a lot of X stocks and tokenization appear there and I think that's only going to continue. So I think your liquid bets are pretty

simple. Like they're just going to be the main two coins we already have and that have already performed thus like I think as what I'm excited about is first of all I think credit is going to come on chain more and more. Uh I think a lot of like credit in banks is is pretty bureaucratic and like not robust but like things like three chain where you have your credit score um VA ZK verify and then you can borrow against your credit onchain with USDC. There's a couple other things. There's this new thing smack put across my dash that is a onchain clearing house for credit for like debt which is really cool because like right now clearing houses IRL are like really slow that the they're all humans they're they're controlled by the banks whereas like really you could just do it with smart contracts pretty easily

on chain with ZK again and that goes kind of to my ZKTLS thing. So, like that's another thing I think credit's going to be really changed by onchain rails. And then just payments. Like I'm sure we've all experienced going into a local like bodega convenience store and you don't have cash on you and you're buying like one energy drink for $2, but it doesn't take. But the bodega on the little like payment processor card thing, it says uh we don't accept card under $5. And they do that because of like Visa, Mastercard, and those kind of transactions and the fees they create are are too much to where it's not worth selling the product. So, you have to pay cash under $5. Whereas, like if you use stable coins, man, uh that you know, you pretty much could eliminate that

middleman. And like I I I akin it to I don't know if you guys remember when that company Square became really popular in like um the retail days in like 2016. You basically plugged it into your phone charger outlet and it was this little square and you could swipe your credit card and debit card in it. That became really popular. that company like I forget they got bought out for a ton of money but like stuff like that I think is coming to like stable coins because it fundamentally eliminates the middleman and it just makes things easier. It makes your bottom line better, makes your profit margins better. It's like so I think that's the things we see and so I was saying to someone today I was like I think fundamentally if you're an investor the things you want to look for are onchain

rails and fintech solutions that just make bottom lines and margins and friction better. Um, so maybe it's not as exciting, but I think it it's going to change a lot for the better. Do we think Tom Lee goes on Rogan and pumps Heath to 5K? Is he doing that or is this just a rumor? I don't know. I mean, yeah, I can't I don't think there's any confirmation either way yet. I know that people are going to say I'm like a hater or whatever, but I just like I don't know how much good he I just don't find his his explanations compelling. And and this is because I'm somebody that like works in this industry 247 and maybe what he says is like compelling to outsiders, but it's kind of hard to like you go

past the surface level of of what he's saying and look into it and it's like not I mean he had this video the other day about how like ETH should 54x again because it 54x last time and it's like dude it's like come on man like hell yeah that just like it's bullish but it's it's it's like it It's I don't know 54x just PTSD of like Docoin and like some Terra guys like I think there's a level of like just absolute insanity bull posting that's like this is like I don't know but so I agree I don't know if he's like entirely healthy. I think especially to us crypto natives were very wary of him but like I mean he's pumped ETH so far so it's like if you

know if I can sell ETH for more than $4,000 I'm I'm pretty happy. I'm a happy man. Yeah. I guess it's just like how much further can he do it with like his his Yeah. I mean, right. He needs the DATs to do it. And if dads can't buy because they can't I mean, what's ETH's market cap now? Like 180 billion? It's like 500. 500 isn't it like four or 500? Did you say 180? I don't even know what I said. Don't I don't want to go back. Don't Don't quote me. Don't quote. Well, the funny thing is if like if if the underlying pumps and the DATs don't pump, the MNAV gets even more smoked.

I didn't even think about that. But yeah, true. No, I think like ETH is just such a tough spot because the market cap is so high and it's not Bitcoin and so you're just like uh like you know there's a level of like I don't know. Basically, you believe that there's going to be multiple store values and ETH is one and like that's it. I find like debating ETH is kind of like a waste of time in this regard. The moment you're trading silver, you're like the most generate person alive. Like there's some quote about trading silver that's hilarious. Like you know you've reached peak levels of degeneracy when you're like charting and trading silver instead of gold. So it's like I don't know.

You mean Litecoin? When I look at ETH, right? Like I don't It's just so like Yeah. It's just so tough. with 500 like billion dollars. Like how much more could I just run their own soul now at this point? Yeah. It it going I mean getting the bid is good, right? Um like the higher ETH goes the better for just everything else because we've kind of been in this Bitcoin sucks all the energy out of the room market for a long time. So regardless Bitcoin bro it would have so much energy for the market but nobody buys it anymore. There was that hyperlquid ETH BTC whale, right? As in he sold like how

many billions of Bitcoin has he sold? Five billion or something like three to five billion stream yesterday because that was like a good example of like more onchain stuff because he used hyperunit and hyperlquid which is like really interesting. Like what do you think about that? I mean, it's not like I think it's kind of crazy behavior from someone who's been in Bitcoin for that long, hold held so much of it and at $500 billion ETH decided to rotate into ETH.

Yeah. I I just like I'm always wary of that kind of stuff cuz it's like I think we've seen time and time again that like these insiders on Hyperlid just turn out to be the biggest degenerates ever and then it's like I feel like we do this like every couple months which like it could totally be someone huge or it could be a DAT or something but like I don't know how much signal there is in that like honestly unless we like specifically know who it is. A DAT. Yeah, a DAT. No, no, I know. like a a a BTC based I mean I don't think any BTC debts one like he's making an ETH one like he's proactively going to make one and so that's why

it's going to be a part of an ETH treasury is like what I think a lot of people maybe thought is that like he sold all his BTC and it's going to be part of some ETH treasury or something um I think was like the prevailing thing because it was just like billions which is incredibly odd, but like you think it's hard though because people know like how much left you have to bid and everything. Yeah. It's like and then people and then you think like well if he was making a treasury why wouldn't he just execute it like not on like something like that where it's like very public. It's like if you're doing a treasury and you're just you could you know sell your BTC much much easier probably to sailor to whoever rather than just like nuking it on hyperl. Uh, I think that there's a

lot of people that were just early and have like way too much money to know what to do with and maybe this person has no way to actually exit that money anywhere, right? And so they just I always thought like this is what, you know, North Korea would like steal hundreds of millions and just kind of just start pumping random [ __ ] on chain, you know, like you never know. It could just be somebody having fun. Like honestly deposited um on native Bitcoin means he owns like some random Bitcoin wallet on his browser probably or ledger sent it to Hyperunit and then just started nuking all on chain. Like the fact that it's all on chain makes me think yeah it's

probably just like some random person maybe he was you know on an IASA vendor and he bought when he was like drugged out and whatever and then held it all this way. Came back 10 years later with Yeah. came back from his like 10 years later it's on CNBC and he was like oh [ __ ] I got to rotate this he saw Tom Lee 54x saw Tom I want a trillion dollars he fell into the shell bro he's getting the logo tattoo I mean there's just a level of there's a level of price targets that I just don't think are helpful like when you're saying that like ETH is going to be like7 700K. It's like, dude,

what would the market the only way you can get it to like pump to 8K? If you say it's going to be 12K, nobody's going to pump it to 8K. Well, I think once you start like putting some of these, especially ETH, that's like a very distributed like it's not a cornered asset like XRP where it's like the market cap and the fully diluted value are like less specific, right? Like ETH is is pretty well like distributed, I would say. Like I think the market cap and the FDV here kind of like Bitcoin absolutely matter as far as like price target wise. It's like, yeah, it's like then you start, you know, comparing like I remember I compared like ETH to like open AAI and you're like, would you rather own an OpenAI or ETH? And it's like, well, I think that's a that's a pretty easy long on one of

those. And it's like, yeah, I think I think a really good question with these two is like to tell to tell how much of like a monetary premium there is in the asset you're buying is like would you own 100% of it, right? Because you would 100% own 100% of Apple. you'd be like, "Great, right?" Um, would you own 100% of Bitcoin? Like, [ __ ] no, right? Nobody would want to own 100% of Bitcoin. Uh, and like you do this for ETH. Would you want to own 100% of ETH? Like, no. Right. Um, you get to something like Hyperlquid, it's like maybe, you know, you're now you're starting to like actually talk about something that is generating like positive cash flow.

Yeah. It's like the difference between like a currency and an equity, right? Like if you own 100% of money of a money or a currency, then it's valued to no one except you. Basically, it's worthless. Whereas, like if you owned 100% of a business, you're basically just a private company. And then like if you're making profits or if you have some sort of like demand for something you make or provide, then yeah. See, I don't know. Like I think if people were like bull posting to 20K, it's like that's like a better pitch to do because that's basically what Bitcoin's current market cap is.

Let's be real. Foundation's going to sell a massive stack before. It already did, bro. Like, did you not see they're selling like 10k? They have more. 10k is like nothing compared to they got more. The funny thing is someone brought up the amazing point of like, what if they funded their Ethereum Foundation R&D grants with, hear me out, calls instead of USD? Like, why do we have to sell the ETH to USD and then give it to the R&D for Ethereum? No, they're just going to sell it anyways. Somebody's going to sell it. What they do is cover calls. Yeah, covered calls. But like if you were the Ethereum Foundation, I'd rather you get licked the the projects I give.

You don't get licked on covered calls. You just sell you get blown the [ __ ] out. But then they have no treasury left. Like they have to give away all their ETH. No, man. If you know you're going to sell 10K ETH, you write covered calls for 10K. I mean, you get the extra premium and then if it hits it, you sell it. And if not, you still sell it cuz you want to sell it after. I don't even know if like you probably get $10 for a 10k ETH. What would you pay for 10? No, you would you would you would write them pretty close to the money cuz you're going to sell it anyways. So, you want a higher premium.

Well, that's what I mean. Then like it pumps and then you have no more treasury, but you got some some cash. No, you you just do the now you were going to sell anyways. You're going to sell auctions on 10k ETH and then you just get extra yield for free basically. I think the point I was saying is just like I think it's damaging that the Ethereum Foundation is selling directly. Like if they gave ETH to some research grant dev and then he sold and then they sold it for USD. Yeah. It's different. Yeah. It's like well then you dev whereas like if it's literally Vitalic selling that's like dev selling like I don't know that's why don't they use like why don't they use some like ETH DeFi and you know do some cool stuff with that and pay. No, I don't agree with borrowing against your

ETH because that's like how eventually they're just going to get blown the [ __ ] up at some point like or you just have a smart contract thing which is like very bad 57x so they're not going to dude they should borrow against all of their ETH EF and then just buy more ETH. Yeah, it's free money. Use that to buy ETH calls. Can you imagine how much they'd be up if it 54x would Vitalic be the richest man in the world? Easily. Uh, you got think he's worth like a billion. So, no, actually, no. No, he wouldn't. He'd be worth like 55 or so.

Okay. So, we got to raise our price targets. Whatever. Yeah. 100x ETH. Sailor is going to be one of them for sure. 50 trillion. Is there a single $50 trillion asset in the world? No. No. The biggest is gold, right? It's like 25. Yeah. I think there's like, you know, there's some like, you know, new. If you're going to bull post, man, you got to come up with some like better realistic bull post targets. I agree. There's an art to bull. Settle on like 1620k. That's a good one. Go with like 16 just like study.

Oh man, that guy's still like you see any tweet about anything and you still just see him like there. You'd be better off just holding spx. It can be about anything. It can literally be about anything. I'm pretty sure he replied to Brian Johnson's Angel investment in stable with that. It's like the thing is though, okay, his are so absurd like SPX the memecoin flipping the stock market that it's like everyone knows it's like a farce. So then it's just kind of funny. Like I don't know. Whereas like I think Tom Lee kind of generally believes and some people genuinely believe that like ETH could 54x and then it's like that's I man there was this there was this episode they had the black the former black rock guy

who went on and he he got hired by some treasury company and he's like for every dollar that's Ethereum $2 should go to the price of ETH and it's like what the [ __ ] are you talking about? Like this is hilarious. Like the most nonsensical. The problem is that these these guys get I mean dude Tom Lee stands to make like over a billion dollars from this. Of course he's going to try as hard as he can to like pump it up as much as he wants. Like he has this insane options package. That's like so do all these spokespeople, right? So will the people I'm assuming on a lot of the Salana ones and stuff too, right? So you need to like try

I don't know man. I just I am not one of these people who is like religious about this stuff and so I think I try to stay realistic about Do you think we can get a resurgence above one on on the MNAVs on some of these or do you think they're they're they're stuck? I mean the more of them that come out the harder it's going to be. Yeah. What's it like what happens? Are they going to consolidate? I guess it's like I don't see how they don't I don't see how it doesn't consolidate like like cuz there will be a period of time where like there will be at some point right next month 6 months a year like when you go into like a bare market type situation and things just like bleed out for you know 6 12 24 months

whatever it is and I don't see how these DATs just exist in perpetuity in an environment like that. It'll probably just be like a Yeah, like just like a consolidation. Like Sailor probably goes and buys out a bunch of the um Bitcoin DATs because Sailor probably survives, you know, probably one or two three ETH that survive. Same with Solar, whatever. And you just like get consolidation that way, right? like I don't like I I don't I don't think they're going to go anywhere while the market's like still, you know, going up and and bullish, but I I don't see how we have dozens of these things uh exist. Um if if the market, you know, goes into a a bare market, which we will

get, like there's no question about that. It's just a matter of where there's no more cycles. They should dump all their stock and then burn all the coins and then just like leave the face of the earth. That's how you pump the the amnav. I mean I know. Yeah. It's like Tom Lee can pump the nav. Just start [ __ ] full stacking your ETH. Foundation then like they already basically The thing is the thing is what's tough with this is like the whole narrative of it, right? Like once you start doing that Yeah. And it could get pretty nasty if then all of them start doing it too.

That's the you could get a bit of a cascade. Just I mean the bid disappears. Well, yeah, right. You have to assume a lot of the bid besides them actually being a bid has been people bidding because they know they're going to bid. So if they woring point though is like how many people buying besides Master like these these other DAT stocks? Like I feel like they're mostly just crypto people. Like I have Yeah, cuz these ones don't have the dead, which is kind of like the big unlock for I have literal like Salana trenching chats that were like buying 50K [ __ ] the other day and now they're buying DATs and like sharing Yahoo Finance links and I'm like guys, what are we doing? Like I don't know. Like there's a level of like are any like normal stock

market people buying these? Hopefully mom and pop when uh this thing gets added to the No, no. I did a poll like I did a poll like a month or so ago and I think it was like 15% of people had bought them on the public markets which is pretty high to my opinion in my opinion. Uh that's when the ends were like5 or so. So I think they onboarded I think I think the DATs onboarded more crypto people to brokerage accounts than the opposite people to crypto like 100% 100%. Vampire attack.

What do you mean? This just like I don't have private keys. This just like takes every keeps everything for me. Yeah. That's so nice. What a great technology. Yeah. Do you want to wrap it? We're over an hour now. Sure. Sorry. I thought someone signaled. I thought Yan signaled to rap it. No no no. We were having a good time [ __ ] on the Foundation. Yeah. Thanks for joining LTR. That was good. Jason, you've been on a few times. So, thanks for coming back and then uh yeah, we'll see everybody in two weeks. We'll get the normal crew back with Jose and Duncan back.

We'll see. I don't know what Duncan does half the time. So, we'll see. I don't think Duncan knows what Duncan does besides and he's got like a shrine of no. Yeah, I was going to ask Duncan if he's tokenizing his galaxy on chain to go long more galaxy. Did you see there's like 500k liquidity though? That's pretty good. I did. That's horrible. It's like 800 million order book. I mean, it's horrible in context. It's like 500k is that's kind of what you expect for these things. I think that's like how much all of these stocks actually wait in liquidity or in issuance liquidity pool like the LP it's like a decent liquidity pool for it's like I've certainly bought things

with less. Yeah, but like you've bought like 1 million market cap things with less. I don't know like how are you going to get Yeah, I don't know what the Listen, I agree with you. It's like who is realistically buying Galaxy on chain? Like I feel like if you're I mean if if you have Galaxy, you almost want to just pivot so you can borrow against it if you really wanted to. Um that's where it's useful to me. Yeah, they need to probably that like can you can you now take your galaxy and go to likeino or something?

Uh yeah, you can you don't need to. I'm pretty sure the way it works is that you need to you need to KYC with superstate, but then you don't need to like but then you can use any protocol because your address is already whitelisted on whitisted. I don't know if that's I don't know if that's like how it works literally right now, but I think that is the intention. Okay, I went over in the securization report back in May. I may need to revisit that. That's back when they only had fun tokens and those were like permissionless. So yeah, you would like KYC once on the superstate thing and then you could pretty much do whatever you wanted with the tokens.

I mean there's a lot of cool unlocks with that stuff for sure. That like stuff like it's Yeah. Like I know decentralization maxis will be like a KYC but like there's a lot of cool things you can do. So what? Yeah. Well, yeah. I think uh that that term is overused way too much. I mean, you're trading you're trading like who cares? You're trading [ __ ] Galaxy stock. They need to increase that liquidity by an order of magnitude, though. Like, they just need to balance. That's what I was saying. Like, you can't put size into it at all. Like, you can't for how I I just looked at it on a coldar problem. Like, you you get Yeah, you get a bunch more and then the narrative starts building.

Are you sure it has 500k liquidity? Cuz I literally just looked at it. I just saw a picture today on like Twitter, so don't I'm pretty sure it's not even like tradable yet. Anyways, good chat. Uh gonna wrap it up. Uh but yeah, thanks guys for coming on and see everybody in couple weeks. Yes sir. Thanks everyone. Yeah, have a good one guys. Thanks for having me on.