Hivemind: Ceasefire In Iran, Is AI a Bubble & Drift Exploited For $280M

Transcript

Nothing said on the hivemind is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is strictly for informational purposes only and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our own opinions, not financial advice. >> [music] >> All right, welcome back everybody to the hivemind. I'm Kevin Kelly, one of the co-founders of Delphi, a long-time listener but first-time host host of the show. Really excited to be here with the with the usual cast of the Delphi hivemind. Quick announcement before we get into things. We've got a bunch to get into. Uh this will actually

be the last and final episode of the hivemind on the Blockworks Empire channel. Going forward, you can find the hivemind on Delphi's own media channels like the Delphi Digital YouTube, Spotify, Apple podcast feeds. We'll try and get all those links added to the to the show notes. But if you're fan of the show, subscribe to those channels. Uh do it now so you don't miss a single episode. We've got a bunch that's planned for this show ahead. Got a couple new ones that we're going to be announcing soon. So you're definitely not going to want to miss that. Want to give a quick shout-out and a huge thanks to Blockworks for partnering with us to really get this show off the ground over the last year. We're big fans of their whole team. Oh them a lot of gratitude for everything they've done and uh

looking forward to hopefully maybe doing something with them in the future. Now on to the main event. As I mentioned, joined by the usual hivemind suspects here. We've got Yan, our managing partner of Delphi Ventures, Jose, who is our head of Delphi Labs, Saterus, head of research at Delphi, and Jason, head of markets. Yan, it's great to be here. Excited to do this first one with you and what a day to do it on. How's everybody feeling? It's it's ceasefire day at least for now. Yeah, we've had 12 hours of ceasefire or something.

Um It's uh everyone's kind of on edge, it feels like. Um I'm I'm pretty long into it, I think. Positioning is favorable to be long right now. Um I'm not super optimistic on this all playing out smoothly from here. I think my base case is basically that you have a breakdown uh in negotiations maybe before the 14-day window or or at the end of it, but it just seems like the um the [clears throat] requests are too far apart and and basically kind of you know, diametrically opposed. There's there's some elements that they're just completely

mutually exclusive. So um I mean, there's always the world where things get delayed even more and and I think that would be pretty favorable for markets. You know, the big concern is obviously this backlog of of fertilizer, oil, and and other shipments. And so the longer you have to undo the damage, the uh I think the better off everyone is. And and I think that's kind of what I think the rationale for the negotiations has been and and and why um it was pretty I think favorable for the US at least to do that. I I think it gives them a bit more leverage.

If if the economy isn't being squeezed as or the global economy isn't being squeezed as much, so they're not they're not feeling as much pressure. Obviously, the pressure isn't isolated to them. And and so you you you you you you hear whispers of China getting involved on the Iran side to push for a resolution. Um it's kind of hard to say what's really happening, but generally seems like there's opportunity for some short-term optimism around um world trade kind of resuming, obviously with tolls and and or however else these uh tankers are getting through. You're hearing rumors of BTC or or yuan being used, but um yeah, overall it seems like market's in a good spot. I think it the the positioning is honestly the big part

um where where, you know, most people, rightfully so, were were kind of sidelined. And there's too much unexpected turbulence and and you know, there's also just a contingent that's happy to wait until it resolves, which is totally fair as well. Um so that doesn't seem like there's that much long positioning. The question is basically you know, will will you get enough follow-through to to make these markets move and and make the the payoff in the short term worthwhile? Jason, how you feeling? Um yeah, I think uh I think Yan's like base case is kind of where I'm at in that um obviously this is very nice in the short term. Nobody wanted to see, you know,

power plant day and bridge day happen. Um That would not be good for markets and just anything generally, but yeah, I I don't know. I just don't see how this actually resolves anything because to Yan's point, both I guess, you know, lists of things people want are just they're just they're just opposites. And um it just doesn't seem like the the outcome that the US is is looking for. Um so to me like it I don't think it really like changes much. Like I think um I think the outlook is still really precarious. Like I still think it like unless you're like actively trading and really good at it and have like a track record of like trading volatile

environments well, like I think it probably just pays to to be cautious and either play defense or just, you know, not play not play the game. Um I think there's still a lot of downside risk and like I actually like that kind of recession report that Scott wrote uh two to three weeks ago. Like markets are pretty much like back to that level right now, right? Um We're a few percent off all-time highs even though things are as bad as they've ever been generally over there. So I don't know. Like I'm obviously happy that we get a little bit of a relief bounce, but I'm I'm very cautious over the next two weeks. Like I I I think I think things kind of break down further before they get better in my opinion. I'm I'm very cautious.

>> [snorts] >> Yeah, Saterus, say definitely want to get your guys' thoughts. Maybe another question like how is how is everybody like roughly positioned or allocated right now? Cuz I feel like that tells a lot about what just sentiment looks like. Yeah, I'm not a good person to ask this cuz I'm I'm always just long >> [laughter] >> assets. Like I just I don't know. I I mean Yeah, outside of Bitcoin and hype for me, like for my like crypto holdings that I'm just holding like long-term. Uh I'm I'm very much in cash. Like I'm very tactical, very very very much in cash. Just kind of um trying to buy like washouts from headlines or fade things, you know, just very short-term stuff.

Like I'm not Is that it? Just BTC and hype? In crypto? Yeah, that's all I own. Yeah. >> Yeah. And Zcash, but it's not big enough for me to like care yet. And of course, it's 30% in the last day, so I'm just like, all right. [ __ ] >> Yeah. But yeah, pretty much. >> [snorts] >> Um equities, like I'm I'm not touching equities right now. I think equities probably come down. So yeah, I'm just like very very cashed up. Yeah, I didn't change my um my portfolio that much. I'm mostly long long equities. Uh I did take out some hedges like before the

the this this all happened. Uh or like at the beginning of the Operation Epic Fury. And I'm probably like break even on those or or maybe even slightly down at this point. I have to check. But um yeah pretty yeah, I'm I'm mostly long equities. I'm long some crypto. Yeah, like hype, Bitcoin, Zcash. Um Inna. And I might be missing and pump, basically. Um something like that. And have been buying and obviously, yeah, they've been buying more Bitcoin and started nibbling on alts actually recently, but have been mostly buying Bitcoin over the last month or so. Um Yeah, and in general, I think the

it's like pretty good for I mean, this is the I think in general, the macro situation, I've been saying this for a few episodes, is like really good for Bitcoin cuz it's it's becoming clear now that the US isn't the world's dominant power. Like the world's more multipolar than ever, you know? And and like I think Iran has just like really clearly illustrated that. Like um you kind of saw it with the Citrine piece, too, right? Which I know you want to you want to jump into. But you know, before it used to be that everyone treated the US as someone you could rely on, right? And like they basically secured the world order. Um and and and and that was that's like not the case anymore, right?

Like countries are basically flying out to Iran and making their own deals. China's still getting shipments through the Strait of Hormuz. And I think um you know, I think a lot of countries are going to end up negotiating their own independent deals. Europe's making their own deals with with China. And like today we saw this headline that that Iran's going to charge for the for the tolls in Bitcoin or yuan, which I think is like just huge. Um To me, that's like one of the biggest fundamental developments in in Bitcoin in a while. Like I feel like we've all been waiting for this moment for for for like >> know if like any real dollars is going to use Bitcoin.

>> Yeah. I think it's more of like a headline thing. >> Same. I think it's a really good headline, though. Like I I just think it's the this like this is what you need um for Bitcoin to actually fulfill like its its purpose as as a a global like neutral store of value in this in this increasingly like multipolar world. Um but yeah, obviously there's there's some some quantum fears and some Michael Saylor fears as well. But uh yeah, overall I'm pretty yeah, pretty long still. I think when it comes to like the crypto market, And honestly, looked too bad over the past few weeks. And not just like Bitcoin um like Bitcoin has looked pretty good during the war, all things

considered. Um and then there have been pockets of some alts doing well, right? Like Tao's [snorts] done well. Um Monad recently, Zcash. Zcash is down a lot this year, but like over the past month or so it's done well. Hype obviously has done quite well this year. Um you've seen some real weakness in like stuff like Sol. Obviously, the Drift hack didn't help that recently. I also am kind of wondering if Samani leaving Multicoin is also weighing on Sol. Um because like a lot of maybe maybe Multicoin has is getting a lot of like uh LP redemptions, too. And Sol's just such a big position for them that they're kind of forced to sell it.

Uh but Sol's been like noticeably pretty weak uh compared to other stuff. Um but there's been you know the a bunch of the AI tokens, right? Like Yeah. And well this year. Um the uh Zero has done pretty well this year. So there's been like you know, it's it's been healthier than we did go through a period of like just DCA down only for like everything. Um and it's like people are starting to nibble at like some things now. Yeah. >> Which I think is good. I'm pretty long.

I have some BTC and I'm I'm deep in alts. Um You're unmuted, Jason. Uh I just laughed. I was like, "What do you What are you deep in?" I'm curious. Uh yeah, so I I got I started buying late Feb. Those were decent buys. Then I bought some more in March and I was up and then round tripped a bunch. And then uh when Trump had that speech I I remember messaging Jason. I was like, "And the market puked on it." I I was just like, "Ah, I don't think it's that bearish." cuz the most notable part being that he gave a deadline. Right? And so I think there that gives some element of certainty. He mentioned, you know, two to three weeks and obviously there's no reason he might stick to it. But I I

think you don't throw that out with zero intention of of trying to have some kind of um uh approach and and and implementing, you know, or or working around it. So I thought that certain that gave the market some certainty. So I loaded up a decent amount on that puke. Um but I yeah I some BTC. Uh I think Hype lighter uh will do well as RWA uh becomes a bigger share of their um ally. Plus you see commodities and and and I think there's a lot of positive headlines around the price discovery and just the amount of volume that they're having. And and you know, part of the idea is that these things will become everything exchanges

and and I think this is a great step in that direction. Uh bought some some ENA particularly after kind of the announcement. Uh I think it's insanely under own super beaten down. Um uh USDE's supply has hit a floor, right? And so now you have the the potential for growth there. You want to You want to jump in real quick. >> Yeah. Yeah, I was just saying do you want to talk about what that announcement was? Yeah, so basically they are looking to diversify outside of the carry trade in uh when it comes to yield. So RWAs um trying They're already diversified outside of the carry trade. mostly though. Yeah. They're they're they're

trying to add additional sources of yield though. So now it's it's like prime lending uh like non-treasury yielding assets. Uh so it could be other forms of debt. I think it's a a biz dev plus uh ability to find creative opportunities game. And I and I think that team and and Guy are really good at that as evidenced by kind of how quickly and and deeply they became integrated in it to every exchange and um uh custody provider. So I think that then on the AI front, yeah, those those those have been pretty interesting. So you you kind of have to look at, you know, which teams are still building, right? There there aren't many and so if you can kind of focus on

those, I think that it becomes a bit more clear and and that's kind of the I guess the benefit of of bear markets that lead to attrition because you know, the ones that stand out um make become clearer bets. So I think uh I like Near, Grass uh and um and Venice. I think Venice is probably one of the more interesting ones just in terms of its size relative to the amount of growth that it's had. They haven't really they like you kind of have to like piece together the growth based on Eric's tweets and and and other points, but it seems like it's been through the roof. Um and I think it'll probably pick up even more with uh the the with Claude's adjustment away from

um allowing for people to use open claw with subscriptions. And and so you're going to you dig into more of these frontier models because paying for APIs is pretty cost prohibitive for a lot of people. So um yeah, I think uh for me it's basically a combination of exchanges um ENA and and the AI coins. Yeah, I thought the uh speaking of AI, the the Claude announcement Anthropic's announcement around Claude pushing people to the API instead of the subscription. It's it's hard to see like how is that not going to be extremely bullish cuz a lot of that was because it's very compute It's be based on compute capacity,

right? They're basically getting strapped for that. So how is that not like potentially one of the next big legs where you got all this talk about the AI bubble and one of the things I wanted get your guys' take on is like the disconnect we're seeing a bit between public markets, private markets. I know especially like Zions where you guys spend a bunch of your time. It seems like some of this is uh Iran war volatility in public markets which just weighs down big tech, heavy names, mag seven. But then on the private side you've still got crazy valuations, fundraising rounds that seem to only be accelerating.

Like I don't know. I I I this concept of an AI bubble I've never really believed in or that it were anywhere close to the top of it, but I'm just curious to get your guys' take on like where you see this going forward. Is the Claude type news for bullish like reinforce that hey, there's just so much demand for compute that this has this infrastructure has yet built out. This has to continue. And any insights you guys are seeing on the private side cuz underwriting AI right now is is definitely a challenge. Yeah. One one bubbly component um So that you you have your your SpaceX IPO later this year and then you're going to have it's this kind of ticking time bomb, right? Where Like I mean the SpaceX one is just going to be monstrous and there's only so much

dry powder out there. So you you probably have SpaceX, Anthropic, and and OpenAI going and then after that it becomes a bit trickier. And and so there's there's it can go in like one of two ways, right? You can have uh just continue to progress and and revenue continues to ramp and these things just start doing really well and then that enhances their ability to to borrow cheaply and and and you know, sell stock or or raise debt. And then the the the flywheel keeps going. You also have this world where you know, whatever happens in in in broader economy causes a bit of a downturn and then you have all of this

new liquidity coming. There's there's going to be so much selling of this stock from from insiders cuz it's all like insties that they're just going to sell and and it makes sense. And then so there's a world where some of the stuff trades down and then that hinders the ability to keep funding the growth. Uh yeah, so I'm I'm not sure how that plays out, but it like you can make an argument both ways. Yeah, it's like this race between capital markets being able to actually fund the build out of this that is necessary. But whether or not that capital is going to be there. I think these companies they're probably going to launch or they're going to IPO. They're going to

have relatively low floats, right? Because they're going to try and juice at least early day returns. Um and it's going to be a lot of these companies at this point in the private market. You're looking for investors are looking for some type of exit and they're they're too big at this point to get acquired. Most of them are going to have to go public. And you have to kind of see how the public markets react because IPOs still haven't largely done well, right? A lot of ones that have gone public in the last 12 18 months are are down, right? You even seen some big AI companies potentially even looking at discounts on their latest rounds just to go public just to give investors liquidity. So yeah, I'm not sure how that's going to how that's going to pan out, but I mean on the AI side there's

still I guess a ton of stuff we're looking at on the private side that that's interesting enough, right? It's like your hyperscalers, your infrastructure side. And then Z I think you become more I'll say bearish on like the software application layer. Is that still I assume that's still the case? Yeah, on the public markets there's definitely a big difference between how private markets are pricing things and and public markets. And obviously the go-to example people use is Stripe and Adyen, but there's a bunch of other examples like Databricks um and and uh yeah, like Databricks and Snowflake basically are the best direct comps. And they're both like 5 billion ARR, but one's trading at like 150 billion and

the the other one's trading at like 50 billion. And there's like many examples like this um on on on private markets. Like Chime and and so fine and a bunch of these like where they're basically trading like anywhere from half to to to lower on the on on public markets. And so yeah, it's a weird one. It's kind of like what happens in crypto too honestly where you know, the private marks are just uh yeah, like way higher than what can be sustained on on public markets and it just takes a while to adjust. Um it's interesting to yeah, it's going to be interesting to see the SpaceX IPO cuz like you said there's dude there's a lot of a lot of people who've been holding that stock for a long time. There's been like they've raised a lot of money. I think they've

raised 12 billion overall. Um and yeah, it's hard to like how much insiders like how much investors own but I think Elon owns 42% of the company still. Um and then a bunch of uh and then obviously there's there's and the employees I think have had a bunch of tender offers but yeah, there's clearly a lot of investment capital in there and it's going to be hard to find like you need to find a lot of buyers, right? in on public markets like a few hundred billion really of of of net buyers to to offset that. And obviously SpaceX is like an insane company but it's it's it's doing about 20 billion in in revenue. Yeah, I think it's like 15 or something. Yeah.

It >> Yeah, it's like it's like Meta's trading at 1.5 trillion, right? And it does like 200 billion in revenue. Like it's it's it's kind of silly. Like it it's literally trading at 100x revenue. I I don't know. I'm uh and but a lot of the growth rounds for for like private market growth rounds are pricing in these these multiples but but yeah, interesting it's like way more expensive than Anthropic or OpenAI on a on a revenue multiples basis. So yeah, I don't know. It's going to be interesting to see how it goes. >> Space.

Yeah. [snorts] Yeah. And on the application side, sorry Kevin, do you do you want to do you want to jump in? I was I was just going to say I I know I agree and I think public markets are the since I'm always like sometimes the ultimate like arbiter of like it seems like public markets when it comes to AI are very is very focused on asking questions around like ROI and like show me the money today in a sense whereas a lot of these private rounds are based on like to your point say like future growth and like growing into these valuations which again, if you looked at OpenAI two or three years ago, a lot of people would have said it never would have gotten to

maybe even like 20 or 25 billion in in ARR, right? So it's it's a little bit more of like subjectivity, I guess you'd say or like you can't really plug in a DCF like your models are only as good as your assumptions. Whereas once you go public, public market investors and institutions like it's a very different mindset. It's kind of almost like guilty until proven innocent right now. Yeah, I think there's a a high probability SpaceX trades below their recent vals. They're like the the last round. You get a puke. Wow. That's good. Last round was a was a trillion, I think. So that would be and they're going out at 1.7.

>> I guess below IPO round then. And not sorry, not last round below like trades down from IPO for sure. It's like if you get any kind of market downturn that's going to be one of the earlier ones that gets puke, I think. I mean yeah, I I just the the the gall to IPO at a two trillion dollar valuation is just but it's a question like is that the new is this the new normal, right? Again, five years ago like in Nvidia becoming the world's most valuable company on the planet at four trillion was just an insane or almost like asinine idea but here we are.

Did you see in Nasdaq's like the there's like been some pressure to change the rules of index inclusion to basically allow companies to get listed to to get like to get basically get included sooner. So and the idea like a lot of people are saying this is basically to get SpaceX included sooner so that the the passive index buyers can can buy the you know, private investors bags or whatever. All right, so when it goes public on yeah, on like nice e too. Like nice e is incentivized to have this thing this thing do well. Yeah.

Yeah, and then I mean you could there was a lot of you're like gesturing that with the Fundrise Innovation Fund, right? The VCX that ticker that went that's not technically public cuz it's a fund but basically was like the launch to the public. What was that last week or two weeks ago and it traded I mean it's nav is like $19. It holds like Anthropic, SpaceX, you know, private shares of all these companies but it's nav is like 19 bucks. And it wound up trading up to like 550, 560 and people pointed it to that as like here's so much pent up retail demand to get access to these names because they can't they can't get access to them really in any other way. I don't know. I just think there's it's a very big uphill battle to climb and it's

almost like the companies that go public first, are they are they the ones that benefit most because the dry powder that is there they want to get exposure to these names or does it make more sense to just wait and see if you're if you're in the queue you know, to go public. I don't know. You probably want to go go public first for sure. I mean no no for for sure. There's just only like it's it's it's the the youthiness roller coaster. Yeah. On the you were going to say something say on the application side?

Is there anything interesting there? >> Um No, I just well, just recently like I've never changed my mind so often as I have recently with investment like in the last one or two years. I think I kind of said this last time. Just like feels like if you if you change your mind, you have like a chance to be right but if you if you don't change your mind, you're almost definitely wrong just based on how fast things are moving. Um and so I there was a a moment there where I was very bullish like verticalized software. Uh kind of talked about it on this podcast as well. Like um just the idea that AI is way more powerful than what people are using it for and in order to unlock that power, really what's missing is sort of context like being able to have data pipelines

to input your your specific context and then like a good UI to unlock that and make it easy for people and that we'd have those sort of across all sectors. Um Yeah. I'm not um I'm not so I'm not sure anymore basically. I I don't I don't even know if we sort of if agents get good enough, I don't even know if we have UIs, you know? Like uh maybe you're just you just say what you want and it just it just happens. And if you need a UI to to to see the data, it just sort of gets generated for you. Um So yeah, it's really hard to say. I think one thing I'm pretty sure about is that there's there's like more alpha than ever in public markets.

Like I think for people who are paying attention in in specific sectors and things like this, there's there's just like I think never been more alpha cuz I think for for sort of two decades like it was sort of nothing ever happens, right? Like the the big just got bigger. Mag 7 just took up just carried sort of the S&P. Um and passive investors did really well. I think now there's there's so much happening and it's so hard to to to sort of play out all the consequences of it that I do think like some of these active managers cuz all the SAS names got pretty much like indiscriminately dumped, you know? Um sort of 50 to 60% or even more for for some names. There's definitely going to be value there but I also think like in energy, there's people and and people that are working out the the supply

chain for for AI chips and electrification, right? The people who got into the memory stocks early who now I met a kid yesterday who's who thinks, you know, it's it's actually like not uh yeah, anyway, there's all sorts of different theses of the the people are playing with this stuff that I think yeah, it's it's a more interesting game than than it ever was before and really hard to play part-time cuz things just move and reprice so quickly. I think the this mindset and the increase in active investors is just going to make passive that much better. Cuz passive you're just basically coattailing on the amount of active investor capital that's like in the market.

And it just is going to make it even more benefit like it's passive investing is always been this free lunch. It's like the only free lunch in the world basically. And I think it's only going to >> coattailing? I I think the opposite like the active managers coattail on how much passive capital there is that's basically not making investment decisions. Passive just tails active. But but passive tails flow more than active. Uh like passive is just there's you know, money constant bid every two weeks and uh so I think that's what benefits passive but on the other hand, if you look you know, uh S&P hasn't really done that much but there's been an insane amount of movement under the hood which I think

is more of an argument for active over passive. >> [clears throat] >> Yeah. I think I think S&P will do will do well because AI is like you know, net just value >> Yeah, I mean most people should just own the index, right? Like if you're not doing it full-time, you're not going to be able to do Yeah, just most people should just own the index. But like I agree with you, Jose. And I think Kevin, we we kind of mentioned that in the year ahead that we thought like especially within like crypto but like more broadly speaking that like um we we kind of just said what Jose was saying. We're like active people who are active in the market like essentially like stock pickers market will probably be like the ideal way to kind of treat

the market going forward given all the opportunities. Obviously, we didn't have a lot of the things that have happened between then and now happen but it kind of only, you know, builds on that case. So like yeah, I fully agree and like um I just don't think a lot of people can play the active game well. That's that's like the only thing. Like I think it's very hard to play it to play it well. Um Aren't you kind of like contradicting yourself then? No, like I think I think the good active managers will do very well over the next like 12 to 24 months relative to how they've done over the past like 5 to 10 years.

But I don't think there will be that many because by definition outperforming the market is hard and most people don't do it, right? So like for most people just own the index, I think. Like right? Like if you're not doing it full-time. And if you are doing it full-time, it's still hard, but like it's a it's as good of a market as any to do it. Yeah, I think the comparison would just be um the spread between active hedge funds and passive 401k investors, basically. Whereas before, yeah, it wasn't I I'd say right now the spread is wider where hedge funds can outperform just passive 401k peeps versus

what it was before when you just had this rising tide and and and basically if you if you missed a name, you really underperformed. And so by being an index investor, you never missed the Apples of the world. Yeah. And one way to I guess what you said before, right? It's like probably there's going to be way bigger dispersion in the underlying makeup of the S&P 500, right? If before everything just like mostly went up and maybe the mag seven went up more, I think now you're going to have like some things get absolutely destroyed and and then other things just come out of nowhere, right? And I think that dispersion is where you can capture the the big performances as a long short manager right now in a way that you just haven't been able to in the last two decades. So

yeah, I I I would I would take that bet. You know, like Buffett made that bet with whoever it was active manager in 2000, right? That like the the S&P would outperform like this basket of active managers and it did. I think now's a better time for for active managers, basically. It's the only point I'm going to start >> Yeah, in particular like when you when these big guys IPO, you know, there's there's going to be some fresh capital, but I think it's a lot of it's just going to be rotated rotations, right? So which names are going to get decimated in that in that situation? I I don't know what the ratio of fresh capital to rotation is and but I I I do imagine there's going to be quite a bit of it um because it's it's kind of a reallocation of of of exposure from institutional

managers saying I I still want to be long this sector this weight. And in order to get exposure to that, I have to rebalance that into something else. And then, you know, you layer in who are the biggest losers from the growth of these other firms. And so you kind of you're going to get some some really big volatility around those IPOs. By the way, on the topic of you know, private investments and IPOing late and everything. Did you guys see this yesterday? I don't So like I don't know the type of like liquidity that uh there is on this stuff, but I was pretty surprised like um someone was able to buy like half a million dollars of Anthropic on Solana on chain

a few months ago. Um I've been like pretty skeptical of these pre-stock things because a lot of times they're like they're kind of just like synthetics, they're like cash forwards and and all this. Um Is this a spot thing? Yeah. Yeah, it's it's by pre-stocks. I need to look into them more because I don't understand how this guy was able to buy 500k. It must all be direct with like the issuer. Because I don't understand how >> not direct with the issuer. No, no, not with Anthropic, with like the pre-stocks or whoever's tokenizing these, right?

Uh Yeah. I mean, I spoke to we spoke to someone that's that's got an interesting design for this. It's actually based on the original FTX design from back in the day. So like FTX, I don't know if you remember they listed like Coinbase and and and Robinhood back in the day. And it was apparently this Swiss law firm that they ended up acquiring that had this super interesting design. It's I mean, it's very simple. It's like a trust. You put the you put the asset in it and then you can sort of like um uh it's a trust that sort of is cash settled on on IPO or exit. And you you put the asset in it and then you could like issue um like Yeah, I guess I was just kind of shocked. Like I knew these things kind of existed over the last few

months. Uh but I didn't realize that like cuz most of them it's like oh, you can buy Tesla X stock and it's like you buy a thousand bucks and you move the price 2% right? Um but I don't know. Interesting space to like watch, especially as we there's like more and more tokenization over the next few years. Yeah, I was pretty shocked he was able to get that size. >> [clears throat] >> Cuz even moving some of these, you're it's messy, right? These vehicles have carry fees, broker fees, like all of these elements um and and so it makes even just secondary market transactions pretty brutal. Um so I'm impressed that that

that worked. >> Yeah. I got to look into it more, but I saw it some people that like I respect their opinion like tweeting it that it was like legit and stuff. So um I definitely think this is going to happen though. There's going to be some way to bring private stocks on like private markets on chain. I think it's kind of like a perfect fit. Um I just don't know what the winning design is going to be. I mean, just look at the explosion in secondary sales. I mean, that's that's the marker right now. Yeah, that plus when uh if some of these IPOs go south, everyone who's in late stage privates is like holy [ __ ] how do we run for the door?

That's the thing, right? There's just so many the private market is just so big right now. Like yeah. It's also going to be interesting how they get around cuz for certain companies and certain privates, like there's a good amount of secondary supply on like basically any of these platforms. But then there's others that are arguably the most highly coveted where the the team themselves, right? Like puts restrictions on secondary sales or like who's wanting to know like who's on the cap table. Like I don't know how you get around that if you don't have the team sign off or like the the doctor structured that way.

>> SPVs. Um >> Right. So you're on the cap table because you're approved or like you and then you're basically just tokenizing or or creating a new >> the cap table, right? And I'm just selling that thing around. And then somebody else sells somebody else. >> or your SPV is on the cap table of an SPV or something, cap table of another SPV, which hopefully is on the cap table of the underlying. The Chinese dolls. [laughter] Which which hope which hopefully the underlying is somewhere in one of those. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's going to be really interesting with SpaceX, too. I think a lot of people are going to realize that these things did not have access to the underlying or you were paying so many layers of fees that you basically

are making like way less money than you thought on some of these things. Yeah, I know like a buddy who who was in Anthropic at I think the 18 mil round and he recently sold and after all the fees, it was like an 8X. Well, what would it Well, and yeah, wow. 18 mil. Well, cuz uh there was the big round that came in that there was [laughter] a 50% dilution. Um The the round after that was that that the big one. I forgot who who led that, but that was like a 50% dilution round, basically. So there's that and then there's the fees and yeah, these things are super capital intensive. So you like getting diluted pretty heavily each round.

Yeah, it's a tough world when you when you're getting disappointed by an 8X, too. On what could have what could have been. I also saw I saw an interesting chart like kind of going back to disconnection markets uh around like prediction markets. We can get into some of the Polymarket stuff cuz I know they had a couple announcements this week. But it's just been interesting to see like the rise of prediction markets. I saw a great chart that was basically the the volumes of prediction markets overlayed with like the volumes on crypto. And they were just like the inverse of one another, right? Like prediction markets just stealing a bunch of attention. I and I still feel like the crypto market suffers from that. Like it seems like yes, we talked about some names that have done decently well, especially in the last three, four weeks. But I don't know. I

feel like the attention is still shifted shifted elsewhere. The attention from prediction markets? The attention just in general, like within within crypto. Like you got Bitcoin, it's got its own narrative around it, but I don't know. I think just like prediction markets are are going to be an interesting one we can dig into um cuz I know they they've had some news this week. Polymarket itself seems like it's had a week. Took down some of the markets that were tracking like the fate of US pilots that were downed. They had one that resolved yes to boots on the ground, which Sat us, I know you've had some thoughts around or some debate around the usefulness of these things, but Yeah, I think prediction markets have

been I mean they have a lot of work to do to be like useful. Um I think a lot of times you get these markets that resolve that they resolve around like technicalities and wording. And so if you're like somebody and I'm stealing some of this from like a Matt Levine call the other day, but I totally agreed with it. Like the the boots on the ground thing, right? Like that market, the intention of that market is like is the US going to send troops to like for an operation in Iran like to as an attack, right?

It's not the intention of that market is not like they're going to go and rescue a pilot, right? It's like some It's like some outlier technicality. And so, it's like if you're really good at prediction markets right now are in this phase where like you've had so many markets resolve around like these weird nuances that kind of get away from the the point that the market is really supposed to be about. And so, if you're somebody that like spends a lot of time like figuring out these nuances, you can like make a lot of money in this, but it's like it's kind of there's no it's like not useful, right? If if if prediction markets are going to be like their their whole selling feature is that like they make information uh more accurate and they surface

information and all this kind of stuff, then you do want markets that are measured by their true intention. Yeah. Um I'll take the other side of that, though. I think you need to have you need to remove subjectivity. Um otherwise it can get very messy. So, I think if you if you take every market in a literal way and and and treat that as a feature, not a bug, then it just becomes more about prompts and and and conditions for the market. And so, you don't repeat previous mistakes, right? The next one will say it doesn't matter like if somebody gets shot down it's not boots on the ground. Like you you I think you become more specific about what triggers the parameters. And so, there's kind of a learning curve there, but I I I I think you you kind of want

to remove subjectivity, although you know, at the at the same time these guys just rely on Uma, which has been less than honest sometimes with kind of well, manipulation, etc. And so, >> Well, yeah, like minus the the Uma thing, right? Like I mean, Cetera is like there really isn't like a solution other than what Jan Jan said, right? Just like make a better market that's more explicit on what the resolution criteria is, right? Like that's Well, no, that's what I think they should do. I think that they've been sloppy with like the way they've talked about designing these in measuring these markets. Like a lot of markets, you look at the measuring criterion it's kind of like I don't know. It's kind of weak. And so, they have a lot of work to do, I think,

in that respect. You're going to have this come up a lot until they get better at it, because there's obviously money to be made here in figuring out what the flaw in the market is, right? Um What do you think of the they dropped like Polymarket did like the like exchange upgrade thing with like their their own USD Polymarket thing? Uh what do you think about that, Cetera? I don't remember that. What what was it? Uh didn't they announce something like that they're going to >> exchange upgrade, I think.

>> Yeah, like they're going to have a native stablecoin for like Polymarket USD, that kind of Does it like yield bearing? Is that part of it so that you don't like the opportunity cost? >> Other way, they internalize the yield. Yeah. Oh really? >> [laughter] >> When you don't charge fees, you got to make some money Yeah. But it kind of yeah, just like everything's now directly controlled by Polymarket versus >> Everybody, I mean, every successful it like I know Athena's done this with like mega ETH, right? A lot of these like people come to the conclusion that like, oh wait, what's like the good solid fundamental revenue in crypto? And a lot of it is the treasury yields behind the stablecoins, right?

And so, if you're an application and you're like, oh, look at all these stablecoins I have on my platform, I should get paid for that. Like Solana, for instance, Solana has like 15 billion and like, I don't know, half or more than half of that is USDC and they don't even freeze [ __ ] 200 million when there's an exploit. Like and they get nothing for that. So, like, why? What is that relationship getting Solana? Like they have an issuer who shares no economics and leaves their DeFi ecosystem out to dry when they have the ability to like stop damage. So, I think this is like a point that a lot of just like blockchains, applications in general,

are just going to get into more and more. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what that what the end game is on that, cuz yeah, I I think we talked about this Nick Carter post a while ago, but I thought it was really interesting. He he said, you know, he used to be that everyone thought few giant stablecoins would win cuz of liquidity and network effects, but his his argument was that actually maybe the the end game was like a bunch of different stablecoins. And I think his arguments were just that the float is sort of too valuable to give away, and everyone's going to want to launch their own stablecoin, every app, like we've seen with Polymarket and and with others. And then launching your stablecoins has never been easier, right? Before it was super hard, now you have like all these white label

providers that let you do it super easy. And then users might just not care what stablecoin is underneath, because the front ends will will sort of abstract it away as just like USD, right? And so, it doesn't really matter. And then swaps and interoperability are getting so cheap um that it's enough that that the network effects aren't as big as as they used to be, right? Um And yeah, with with uh with with the yield sharing, uh it just means that there's just like a lot more incentive for these things to be adopted, and we're kind of seeing it, yeah. Athena did did really well with that with mega ETH and and a bunch of others.

But it's an interesting it's an interesting argument, I think. Um I still think there's a lot of sort of Now, yeah, I'm curious what you think, Jan actually. Yeah, I was going to say it's when your app doesn't like yeah, when your app doesn't really need the network effects of your stable where all the activity is contained to it, and you're able to just do it on the back end where it's like, yeah, deposit your USDC or USDT and we'll just convert it on the back end, then then there's like there's there's really few tradeoffs for the app to to to use an existing one. They might as well just go with their own. Yeah, I'm I'm very much in the same boat. I think the the alternative is basically when you're when you need the network effects,

which is just becoming a smaller surface area, is when you'd rationalize not doing it. Which is then yeah, it's kind of bearish Tether and USDC, right? And and maybe there's not really a way to express this bet other than just on the applications themselves or if an Athena or like other white label provider ends up being being very dominant here, basically. >> Tether might be insulated. >> [clears throat] >> Because it kind of exists as just this monster way to transact. Like you're never going to see US Polymarket's USD or any of these other specific ones I think take over the primary utility of of Tether, for example. But on USDC, which relies more so on these

integrations, um more so than Tether, at least, I do think that that like it definitely hurts their business. From a user standpoint, though, like wouldn't you if interoperability and swaps become in the in the back on the back end are essentially like frictionless, can you still make an argument that like network effects would matter? Like you're going to basically try and default to the stable where you can get the highest yield if you're if it's just sitting idle, even if it's within like an application or within an ecosystem.

Like I don't know. I'm I'm trying to square that with like also the dispersion of many, many stables versus just a small handful. Yeah, I mean, most stables don't share yield. Yeah. you bucket it into stables that share yield, and then stables that are just kind of lubricant for the app. And if it's lubricant for the app, then you can internalize because they're not there for the yield. And then if it's a yield product specifically, then I think that's where the demand for the the stable comes from. Yeah, it's a good way to put it. It's a really good way to put it.

Yeah, I do think being the highest yield I mean, that was the initial that was like pretty much my opinion thesis, but just like being the highest yield you like as much as possible, you want to be sitting on one of the vertices, right? You want to be like the most liquid or the highest yield or have some other differentiator, because everyone in the middle is just going to get eaten, right? And like internalized by the applications. I do think yeah, the the changes they made are kind of important there. And yeah. And it's kind of like I don't know if you guys noticed like Sky um has anyone checked USD's supply recently?

Like the Dai supply? It's 12 12 billion. It's what? 12 billion. Yeah, but like I I I've dug into the loop and I just haven't put enough time into fully understanding uh how it works, but it seems like they can just they just chose I think it was like 21 billion or some some arbitrary amount that they can just mint. And then they have this kind of tiered security apparatus behind it. Um With with Maker? Yeah. And like Spark and and all of that.

I think it's just been up since since it's it's sort of like absorbed most of the Athena uh cuz cuz they had they just had better bear market yield sources. Like they had they they'd already integrated with the Apollo, you know, credit funds and all the like all the things that they already integrated with. And so, uh >> [clears throat] >> they they managed to keep like I think their their USD's base yield is like 3.75%, but then they've got higher on the on the like if you if you stake it and and stuff, they have like three different yield sources. But that was enough to sort of absorb it seems like a lot of the USD supply basically went there. Kind of what USD did to USD's initially, right? When they went live and it was like 60% yield. Um

and it's sort of interesting also that like USD has has this seems to have this floor at like five bill even though the yield is is lower than what you could get with with USD S and and and even like treasuries, right? It's like this this huge advantage that I think stable coins have that have been in the market [clears throat] for a while and had a lot of holders is that there just seems to be like forgotten supply that's just willing to accept like lower yield and yeah, I'm one of them honestly like so there's just like people who just won't get rid of their of their USD for whatever reason for laziness or something like that. But it's a huge advantage going forward cuz it just means your yield for stakers is is is inherently higher, right? It's inherently levered.

But I thought it was really I checked USD S the other day and I was like damn, I did not realize they you know, USD S supply was like 11.5 billion. It's it's crazy. It like more than doubled since like yeah, October 2000 November 2024. So yeah, that's why I think if if the changes of the unit maker enough to to raise the yield like 100 basis points, it'll be enough to steal back a bunch of supply from from from Sky. Yeah, I saw the other element them talking about how much there's like a decent amount of die that's lost that's effectively like free buffer to the protocol since that collateral will never be redeemed.

Yeah, I haven't even looked at die supply. Um Wow, there's still 4.4 billion of die, too. So I guess cumulative it's like assuming I that's right. It's like 16 bill or something. Which yeah, that's like I think that's the biggest decentralized stable coin ever. This point. Or non big, yeah. I don't know if you can call maker decentralized anymore, but All right, so we've obviously covered a ton of stuff. I want to end this with a final question all you guys. We've talked about a bunch. But I'm always curious to cuz I chat with you guys about this stuff a bunch, but for everybody out there, is there

anything we haven't talked about that you really want to hit on or I'm curious what has got all of you nerd sniped right now? I think not nerd sniped, but just like reassessing risk after the drift thing. Like I'm kind of nerd sniped I guess by these hacks. Like the way that they're doing them now, um like the drift exploit was a six-month in-person operation where North Korea hired this like external team.

They're like these quant traders. And they became close with the drift team over six months, you know, made a vault on drift that people could deposit in. And then eventually made some like uh test flight app, got the drift team to download it, did all this other stuff, but it was like super sophisticated, right? And you're seeing these you're seeing these kind of attacks, the social engineering ones, happen way more than like the smart contract hacks, right? Like in the past hacks were always smart contract hacks.

Just some shitty code, right? But now the code is honestly gone pretty good for a lot of DeFi because it's been around so long and it's been so battle tested that like >> [snorts] >> you know, this hack, the Bybit hack, the um the Radiant hack, all of these were social engineering, right? I think like my main takeaway like first of all when this happened, I withdrew everything from any Solana DeFi protocol because it's like an admin key thing, right? And it just got me thinking like do I really want to have money in these admin in these protocols with admin keys where like we've kind of just seen this complete

like rug here. Um one thing I think we need to do better as an industry is um I mean, I don't want to I mean the drift team needed to be better in this. Like if you're if you're on a multi-sig, like the drift team's mistake was they thought that they had cold they had cold signing keys for the multi-sig. So like they used hardware wallets, but they were signing on their main computers, right?

And if you're using like a hardware wallet hardware wallet on your main computer, that's not like a cold key anymore because your machine is hot, right? Like you need to be I like individuals should be using separate machines to sign transactions, okay? But that might be overkill for a lot of individuals. But like if you're in a multi-sig on a 200 billion 200 million plus like TVL protocol and you're not using like a separate machine to do the signing, right? Where you don't download anything on it. It's like to me that's just lazy. And I I think there is a lot of laziness when it comes to this and the fact that we've seen like

you know, three insane hacks now with with with Bybit, Radiant, Drift that are all of the similar variety to deal with admin keys, um like you know, and then what? And then what? Anthropic released the model yesterday that can just find all these vulnerabilities, too. So that goes back to smart contracts now. Maybe the smart contracts aren't as safe as they were, right? So it's just like I don't know. I the day after the exploit, I I wrote in the Delphi in our internal chat. And this is like, you know, a chat with people who've been around forever.

Like we all know how to use DeFi. We all are like pretty sophisticated with everything. Um but uh Sorry, what was I going to say? Um oh yeah, so the first 10 respond I I said, do you have 25% more of your crypto portfolio in DeFi? And maybe that number was too high, but the first 10 respondents were all no, right? And this is like people who work in the industry and we don't even have a quarter of our capital in DeFi protocols, right? Now some people came in after and said yes, but like it just And like with all the points programs that have been enticing people for years and nothing's come out of it. It's like you're taking all this risk.

Um I don't know. Yan, you want to say something? No, no, I was going to I I fully agree with what you're saying. And yeah, the I mean, the admin key stuff, it's it's one of those where the the second it happens to one of these, everyone should kind of have their ears perk up and and make some adjustments. It's And then if this happens to a second one, it's even more nuts that this happens. And you know, I guess like the the main hope is just that adjustments are made on a go-forward basis. Um On the the share in DeFi, I think I wonder how much of that is risk versus just lack of of compelling things to do at the moment.

>> I also think DeFi has kind of been hijacked though. Like the the term DeFi, I don't know who tweeted this, but it's kind of been hijacked where something with an admin key or even a multi-sig I think is like explicitly not DeFi, you know? Like or at least the way DeFi is is is is supposed to be. >> Yeah, yeah, it's like on-chain. It's on-chain. It's on-chain. >> It's on-chain. It's supposed to be like non-custodial, um you know, permissionless, etc. Like I I just think that And And I also think no hate to the to the drift team cuz I I actually think they like Cindy crushes it. Um but it the risk profile for like these C DeFi things where you're it's a DeFi protocol with an admin key is actually like the worst of both worlds cuz you

have smart contract exploits and just like the slowness of being able to react on-chain with a with a with a multi-sig, but then also that there are the risks of like key management for admin keys and like the the kind of most of the risks you'd have of of centralized platforms. So I really think it's like kind of the the the the worst of both worlds and I think the yeah, I mean it's a it's kind of a problem that DeFi has been hijacked so much cuz even I think both of these hacks I wouldn't consider DeFi hacks. Like both of these things were basically custodial, right? Resolve and and um Drift.

So yeah, it's it's sort of unfortunate that it ends up it ends up spilling over to to the rest of the DeFi brand. Yeah, last DeFi one was was Balancer, right? Yeah. What was that? I I don't even remember what what the hack was actually. I don't know, but it was in like their I think it might have been their V2 contracts which have been around for so long. That's the the scariest stuff, right? It's just like this honeypot that's been there. And then that ties into um yeah, Claude's might those getting released or I mean, the release of what it can do and what that means for a lot of these long-standing large honeypot

setups. >> dude, like doomsday scenario is bug in like the actual L1, right? [snorts] And then like Ledger. You imagine undercover North Korea operating state of the art like Ledger this whole time is just like >> Claude will find the bugs. On a more positive note, something I'm not like nerd sniped by it, but clearly Hype being one of my only positions is something I'm clearly invested in. Uh and obviously everybody's talking about prediction markets a lot, clearly one of the, you know, winning use cases of of the cycle.

Uh so HIP 4 is like in testnet which is effectively just, you know, they're launching predict prediction markets, unified spot margin accounts, everything like that through HIP 4. So, um it's their first real movement beyond like perps, right? Perp trading and you know just trading like we we know it. So, I'm kind of curious to see how it plays out, see if there's actual traction there, see if they steal away any kind of, you know, market share, especially like the crypto native side of things from like Poly Market or Cow Sheet.

To bring the vibe back down, what are your thoughts on To bring the vibe back down, what are How do you feel as a hype holder with the with the key management stuff? Cuz I think Hype is hype is one of the things that I wouldn't really consider DeFi, honestly. No, no, I agree with you. Like that's always been that's always been like the big risk, right? Even since hype was like super new and before it had all of this growth and success. Um it's always been the big risk. Um So, yeah, I mean hopefully like I don't know, dude. Like hopefully my hype is is not all in hype, right? Like I have some of it in my wallet, but like again, like if they steal a bunch of money or something happens, like clearly it's going to go down a lot, but um

I don't know. Like I just got to got to trust that they're doing the right things and hopefully uh learning from all of these mistakes. Um I believe Tay, who was super critical initially, has been working with them over the last year. So, maybe that's good I don't know. I I have no no insight into it. >> I saw something on Twitter that like they have some migration going on, but I don't know how true this is. I need to look into that more. Um but they might be updating the bridge a little bit to get away from the current structure that they have. Um but yeah, yeah, Jose, that's clearly uh the biggest risk. Like everything else is going great, right? So, like that would be uh by far.

And how do you How do you guys feel about LIT uh like lighter here? I got a pretty I got shilled and ended up buying a buying a bag while I was in China, but I'm curious how how you guys are are feeling about it. Uh I'm I'm I'm bullish. I think you're going to have I mean, it's trading a little cheaper than hype even with the uh FDV adjustments uh for investors. >> a bit cheaper. It depends on how you adjust the FDV. If you don't adjust it, then then like yeah. But if you adjust that kind of hypes and and then do all that, um What are you adjusting hypes for? The the supply and treasury or To normalize the two basically. Like, you know, hype

isn't you don't have the investor like there's an ecosystem, there's no investors that are going to sell. And so, you you know, you kind of kind of do apples to apples. >> They the rest. Uh yeah, and and just what share of of like overall supply is investor versus community kind of thing. Stuff that that's been, you know, pretty broadly talked about. So, the the the gap converges. It's still It's still there. Um Uh it seems like the they had they're like going down the licensing route path and and just deeper US integrations, which um should be bullish. I think there's a lot of open space on the the RWA front.

And and I think there you're seeing growth on on both of those. So, um I mean, I'm I'm I'm buying the number two When when is buying the number two in crypto that looks cheap like ever worked out? That that was my my main like worry when I Yeah, I do think it's it's it's differentiated in a way that not many people talk about. Like with the the way they built it with ZK, like I think it it actually has uh an eject button. Although I don't know if it if it's working right now. They weren't really able to And I think if it was, they'd probably make more of a big deal about it. But um And it also allows [clears throat] them to do like cross collateral more easily, apparently. But it sounds like HIP 4 is going to bring that out anyway. Um

Yeah, I don't know. On on the Tay front, did you did you guys see that viral tweet that went around when when uh they basically listed every protocol that had North Korean involvement? Like everything >> [laughter] >> Well, did you see yesterday this There is this protocol in Solana called Stable, okay? Not Stable. It's like S T A B L E. And they were and they were tweeting yesterday, "Everybody withdraw your liquidity ASAP." And they were quote tweeting a Zach tweet that said that he was like this this a North Korean This guy is like a North Korean dev that's worked at protocols. And they're like,

"Withdraw. This guy worked here." And they were like tweeting it out. But the thing is, they could also that could The thing that is it's so hard in this industry is like that tweet itself could have actually been a hack like they could have hijacked the front end of Stable and then get everybody to panic withdraw from the protocol and then that was the hack, right? And so, that's why this [ __ ] is just so like Man. Did you see the other viral tweet of uh this interview uh where they're like, "We found a way to detect if if the candidate is from North Korea." And they basically ask him to publicly defame Kim and he says he's from North Korea.

>> No, that if people think Listen, that's the long game that they're going to play. Like there's no way you cannot you cannot you cannot trust that process, man. Like they're going to just start they're just going to be like, "You can you can denounce him." And then people will get a false sense of security that they're not North Korea and then it's, you know, and there's no way that's going to work. >> a recording of them denouncing him, hack North Korea, and play it on the TVs there. Boom. Checkmate.

Yeah. And do that for every single one. [laughter] Got to got to fight fire with fire, bro. Come on. This [snorts] was I'm going to share my screen. It was so ridiculous. I was like, "What is going on?" Okay? This tweet looks like it's a hack itself. Okay? Emergency, guys. Please temporarily withdraw your liquidity instantly. Safe than sorry. Better [laughter] safe than sorry. The new Stable team. Uh Spelled temporarily like they spell Stable. >> [laughter] >> But then Basically, yeah. This is the worst crisis calm I've ever >> Basically, this is what they retweeted.

>> [laughter] >> Panic now. You need to panic. They're like Yeah, they quote tweeted this, "Better safe than sorry." I don't know. I was just like So funny the team itself saying that. Better safe than sorry. Seems we had one year ago. We have a new team that took over four weeks ago. So, like that's that's good. A new team. Our values, better safe than sorry. >> [laughter] >> So, I don't know. Uh anyways, >> Funny. good times. Always always entertaining, you know.

Listen crypto. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, dude. Never never a down week. Well, two weeks from we do the next one of these, it'll be right after the uh the ceasefire ends. So, that'll be I mean, we're going to have fireworks along the way, I think. >> Global peace. Yeah, we'll have global peace next time we all hop on, which is super exciting. Something to look forward to. Uh really appreciate you guys, as always, jumping on doing this. Again, just the uh the announcement from the top, this is fortunately the last time we'll be doing this on um Blockworks Empire feed. Huge thanks to them. It's been awesome partnering with them to get this this off the ground.

If you guys like the show, subscribe over at the Delphi Media channels that we mentioned. We'll try and get those links in the show notes. And uh we'll be we'll be back at this with a with a bunch of new content, you know, over the next couple months. So, thanks you guys for joining. Never never ceases to entertain. Thanks guys. >> Thank you. >> [music]