The first venture into RWA for DeFi

Transcript

all right hey everyone uh thank you for for coming the few of you who stuck until late today i'm going to talk about kind of like the first venture we're seeing into a real world assets as collateral for defy um brief introduction my name is christopher arensoft i spent around three years at the mega foundation doing bd in europe and southeast asia i'm still a contributor for the dao itself so i'm a contributor at the mega growth core unit i also run a company called stable node and dennis myself i kind of got into crypto because i was living in argentina experiencing first-hand how uh on why we

need assets like dye to to combat inflation and then especially you know like in the last two years of course like since multicolored.i launched i've been working kind of like the journey on getting these traditional assets uh into d5 so we can start you know not just servicing the the crypto crowd but also working with traditional businesses so today i'll go over three different topics uh i'll go through like what is currently happening in the space uh the things that are that we're seeing right now the onboarding process for these companies to actually be accepted as collateral some of the active participants we are seeing in the ecosystem we're also seeing an emergence of

service providers who is basically companies looking to help people get into these protocols we look a little bit about like what will happen in the future uh the growth that we're seeing at the moment and then just some some final comments um so so right now so in in april we saw the first executive votes which is basically like the final approval from the the mega community to onboard something go through for some real world assets the first ones that got onboarded one of them is a centrifuge asset for a company called new silver who basically does

real estate bridge loans for real estate projects and then we have another one called from a company called 6s capital which is basically a company who does credit tenant leases for commercial real estate both of them in the u.s right now we have 5 million dollars from new silver in the system and i think it's from friday actually we are increasing this to 20 million and next week on friday in the next executive vote uh we will be onboarding four more assets from from centrifuge um the way that these companies go

through this process is of course this is a little bit complicated because these assets are not permissionless they don't live on chain we kind of need to do a lot of due diligence on them so the whole thing starts with something called the mipsix application which is a collateral onboarding application we use the same application for crypto collateral so in that sense you know like the journey starts a little bit in the same place but of course a lot of the things that is needed in the mip-six in this case is you know a lot of stuff around what is the structure of these assets how do you legally actually get able to liquidate them if needed and and you know what is what is everything else around something like

this so you know of course there's also a lot about like what is like the revenue driver behind these assets and and why would it be interesting for the for the community to have in the system um after the mip six application there's some community discussion you know looking for interest uh if it you know even if it's there or not it goes to an unchained poll and it's kinda like the first time where the community can signal with their maker governance tokens if they're interested in having this collateral or not if there's vote yes for this it moves to basically risk assessment and technical implementation the risk assessment is done by risk committee we also have a real world assets onboarding team so basically a team that only works we're trying to get these these things into the system

um my dad is then finished you know we go to the executive vote and finally we are live i wrote up top that this is you know like this this simplified process because you know for the the first assets got added they've basically been underway since the first map six for i think it's almost like a year and a half now uh because you know when this whole thing started there was kind of like a lot of processes a lot of things that needed to be figured out before we could get it in because again you know this is the first time in history where actually having traditional companies borrowing using the traditional balance sheet from a d5 protocol so in that sense you know it's a very exciting moment and right now we are basically looking

to scale it up so it will be very exciting to kind of see how this develops in the future and it's something that you know we believe will be really really big so you know we could have you know basically ability to change normal people's lives using using d5 whenever we look at look at the the collateral in the maker protocol um we're really looking to increase market usage and demand um we're looking to diversify the collateral pool and i think this is also like a very important topic for this this specific case here right right now most of the collateral on d5 is very correlated um it you know when the market drops everything drops

um and therefore you can kind of use these types of assets there's like a counterweight inside defy to be acting as like the the you know the rock we need in in bad times right another thing is also you know when you're looking at the the risk mitigation of the protocol the more diversified the collateral pool is the less reliant we are on a single collatoral type inside the system and you know a lot of people especially initially in the community they were quite against adding centralized style assets to to the system but you can really achieve a risk mitigation via you know diversification

of the collateral pool so of course if you rely very heavily on one type of real world assets so let's say you only work with one real estate company and they go belly up they'll be really bad because you would have you know again like a single reliance a single point of reliance but you know if we have hundreds of different types of real world assets we can go in and you know do like some risk mitigation uh by basically diversifying everything in the system which means that you know we're able to absorb uh the you know we have to expect that eventually some of these collateral types could default but we would be able to absorb it because we have like this massive counterweight of diversified assets that lies next to each other um i would say like another very important topic here is of course also

like the scalability so you know d5 right now is you know very dependent on very few asset types um we're kind of like at a stage now where i mean a lot of eth is inside d5 protocols i think being able to scale d5 only using the assets we use now would be a challenge right because unless the prices go up a lot we can't really increase their supply a lot of for example something like die or borrowing and landing in album so this this way it's also some a way for us to you know venture into a completely new market that you know would be able to give us the scalability we need when we want to scale d5 to to the masses in the future um i'm gonna go over a couple of the

companies right now that is like the main drivers behind this in in maker so we have centrifuge they went live with the first ever real world assets in in maker in the sense that was the first asset that dai was drawn against d5 they're scaling from or like the centrifuge they're scaling from 5 to 20 million this week and then next week they will go up to 42 million so it's not a lot a lot in crypto terms but it's something that you know like over time we're reassured that there's something we can scale up to be uh very significant um centrifuge has also been a long-standing member of mega governance so you know they really like help to like pioneer the process of these onboarding

of this onboarding so we're super happy to you know have kind of like these these projects that goes in and not just like relies on like the internal work at maker uh because one of the very important things here is that like the decentralization the process also means that the participants really need to come in and help push this and then you know we've been working with them since 2019 on this project so you know when it when it finally went live we are we were quite quite pleased to give a little bit of insight into how centrifuge works they basically have what we call like an asset originator it's basically some kind of company that somehow originates or gets clients in with different types of assets this could for example be a

factoring company that deals with invoice financing it could be a real estate developer where they get financing needs for every single project they have they're also doing a project that is one of the ones to be honored next week which deals with farmland so commercial agriculture real estate and these companies basically go and develop some kind of asset a property a project or needs bridge financing somewhere they take the assets they bundle them together as nfts so each asset is represented individually by an nft and then they create these this they create this like investor contract you can see over here but basically use a terminology that is quite like a system that is quite

recognized from traditional finance which is basically having like a senior in a junior tranche maker is borrowing exclusive from exclusively from the drop branch which is the senior tranche so that basically means that whatever the size of the junior tranche is we know that we have you know like some kind of level of defaults that can happen inside the pool before we would ever be be heard basically yeah this you know this creates some kind of like guarantee for both the investors in maker as well as the protocol itself drop in 10 is also something i know like with this system they're really looking to create a lot of innovation the trade

finance space basically being able to draw liquidity both from the market in terms of the tin trance the junior tranche but also being able to you know like get a lot of financing met from you know maker and yeah and as i said like next week they have these three new asset classes there's another one with real estate the agriculture one i talked about and then also trade finance slash factoring and the other real estate is like a flip and fix uh business where they basically like buy up commercial real estate fix it and then they they sell it and this is very not much based around like you know revenue based finance so whenever you have projects where you

know you either use it as bridge financing or you can kind of like estimate uh revenues coming in over time uh does you know the projects that is like the easiest for us to to to determine right now also because then you can go and you can look at kind of like the what is like the revenue based returns for the asset itself rather than only looking at price appreciation because of course price appreciation in something like this which is you know very illiquid assets it's not so easy to to to liquidate or put back into the market um it's it's much easier to do to do it with revenue another one that is working on on their

own but they're already on board they're approved they're still figuring out the last things as they have a they use a different structure so they used a truss structure in the u.s where they use an external trustee to liquidate and this is a very traditional way of of doing finance so basically like some similarities can be drawn to like the spv setups we have in europe but in the u.s they have these trust companies that will you know manage the trust for you as well as appoint like an external trustee and in this case they actually have uh like the external trustee has actually agreed like the trust company itself has agreed to basically listen to make a governance so like let's say that success capital

stops paying on one of the assets uh the trustee would actually be told by governance to go in and liquidate the assets inside the trust they're doing it with credit and tenant leases so it's a little bit of a different space but at the same time it's also these like revenue based uh assets um and as you can also hear like there's quite a bit of it is like within real estate also just because like the sizes of the projects makes it something that you know like quite quickly can become quite attractive um this here is like an overview of the truss structure so basically you have like a maker representatives entity that gets elected you have the

assets in the trust you have the trustee on top of it that you know talks with the maker represent maker representative entity you use also a company in the middle and in this case it's success capital and then you have the borrowing company who you know the ones that that needs the financing for the for the credit tenant projects that they're doing there's a lot of stuff around this things a little bit more complicated than they look here even though this is a something that might not be so easy to grasp immediately but if you're interested in learning more about these projects specifically i would recommend you go to the forum.megadot.com where we have a lot more information about it and you can also go and see the risk analysis of these types of projects another thing which is you know like the

service providers i mentioned earlier is because as i'm sure you can imagine like the whole process of actually reaching the stages that both centrifuge and success is at now requires a lot of work a lot of like knowledge of the system knowledge of how mega governance works some structures set around like the things that they're doing so basically we're seeing now like the emergence of some companies that is basically basing their business model around helping traditional businesses access d5 so one of them i just want to highlight here is greg deprisco he's my former basket maker he was the head of bd global bd and yeah he wants to facilitate governance administration of reporting and insurances the ensure assurance is for

the protocol itself as well as the reporting because of course with assets like this where you cannot see what is happening on chain you kind of like need to have these like quite extensive reports done to the community so that you know at least can you read through it and see that like everything is still okay with the project the business that are getting paid the revenue is not dropping and kind of like keep like an overtime strong risk assessment of of what is happening in these businesses which also of course makes it a little bit some time of a manual overhead but this is the way that it's it's working for now um and yeah like you know he wants to help guy treasure the company through their times complicated process bond

bonding into d5 which you know especially if you don't have any experience in the space at all is is quite a lot we have seen i know in the last two years i think i've seen personally around like 15 different companies trying out with the process um and you know we are only left with two right now uh which you know i think also reminds us a little bit about like how the ux or like onboarding into traditional crypto can be it is quite a lot for for people coming right into the space and especially something like this where you can like base your business around having access to the system uh it can be quite uh quite quite a tough setup this is of course something that like now when we

have the first ones through a lot of the processes like the things demanded from them is being you know planned out and scoped out uh which also means you know like in the future we hope that this will be much easier for for the next generation of onboarded assets um yeah so like looking at the future like what can we really expect from these types of projects right um i think like we have seen already now that like fintech has gone in and started competing with the banks with things like this and as you know like where we really want to position d5 as being like a very very strong competitor in the financing market um right now a lot of the stuff that we're doing still lives you know like

in our own little world but this would really be like a a chance for us to branch out and scale out and you know access traditional companies since maker you know also the creator of die we uh we're quite competitive uh with the banks uh the rates that we can offer them is not determined by the market rates or the central bank rates but basically where like we we see the the risk adjusted returns are good enough for us to participate which also means you know there's of course some industries like uh real estate in europe that is quite difficult because the interest rates are so low already but we do see a lot of potential in in some specific

sectors where we feel like we can be be competitive the vision for all of this was really something that was described all the way back in the white paper of single collateral die it was described already back in 2015 when the first sketches of the maker system was was was put down about you know not just having single collateral die but having a multi-collateral future and it was mentioned you know when the official white paper was released back in 2017 so this is you know something that has been planned from the beginning uh which is also why you know like even though there was a little bit of community resistance in the start it's something that you know like the the team really has wanted to

to keep on push through and where we see you know like a lot of the scalability and of course you know like this was something we worked on before uh the d5 summer last year so you know last year in in june you know maker and compound and r and all these protocols all of a sudden started scaling like crazy um so like right now you know like even with the 42 million we're getting next week it seems like a pretty insignificant amount with the way things developed over the past year but you know we also kind of want to think back and remember that you know what the bear market was the last time and know that like if this should come back at us again maybe hopefully not in the in quite the same scale uh it would be

really really good to have some of these assets in there that you know really can help us uh pull through and keep you know like a decent die supply and at the same time continuously you know create revenue for the protocol um we also kind of like think that like the way that these real world assets you know like with with how that things are looking now it kind of gives us like some flashbacks back to you know like the early d5 days where there was a lot of projects there was a lot of protocols the usage was very low but at the same time you know we really believe that this is something that could you know achieve a similar scalability and you know achieve a very very important role and yeah like you know like the

excitement fall of this is really that you know we we have like for the first time in history had a decentralized protocol that is not tied to any central authority user currency not controlled by any institution an individual finance traditional companies and you know like changing the lives of everyday businesses and people so we really see that even you know with the stage the projects that now it's kind of like a big milestone for the community and for all the people who's worked on this very hard because you know all of a sudden we have these uh protocols that you know not just can like you know change the life of people on the currency side but can actually go in and you know help their businesses and improve their businesses so this is

something that you know is uh yeah very exciting for us at least [Music] some of the other things that we also are seeing now in in in the space um is that we're seeing that there's more of these platforms here that you know is looking at innovating the way that we buy and sell securities so this is also like a pretty early stage market but we're already having some protocols that you know go both bk or like projects or teams and protocols that both became regulatory compliant so for example fountain they operated liechtenstein where they got the approval to operate swarm markets got approved by finra in germany and they're you know

allowing for buying and selling uh security tokens so like one of the big problems that we're seeing with you know the other type of onboarding of real world assets is that they're very illiquid and there's a lot of the security assets that you know actually are traded in traditional markets uh that reassured it is a you know big desire to trade but it hasn't really been innovated around in regards to to how this would fit into to the crypto market so in d5 so basically example swarm they're using balancer pools to create kind of like a minimum level of available liquidity and you know what the dream for you know something like this would be that you know eventually they would have built up

enough liquidity uh for fifa protocols to actually create liquidation markets on top of these systems uh so you know we basically could adopt uh security tokens in former for example like bonds or stocks that you know traditionally are very liquid but in crypto not liquid at all and if we get the liquidity up and running then you know we could also again use this as collateral in the systems so just think that this is still like quite early stage but i figured it would be like a worthy mention because you know i hope a little bit down the line that we would see uh enough activity on some of these projects here for them to actually come in and participate in in the d file system um and of course like one of the big

reasons why we have these companies that is now you know like uh approved by by regulate regulation and like that they go this route is really that you know like security tokens needs compliance um there's still some you know like uncertainty around some crypto assets but a security token there's a lot of certainty around what it need um and it really really if we want to work with companies that you know specializes in in you know tradable securities we really need the compliance to be on top so therefore it's also good to kind of like see how some companies are building you know wrappers around uh stuff like this so it can actually be created you know you actually can create for example liquidity pools with security tokens inside of them the cool thing about these these two

projects this is from fountain is from swarm is that they're both taking a non-custodial approach so they actually take an approach where it's not just like a siloed and custodial platform but they actually still allow people to you know hold some kind of like custodial ownership over the tokens themselves they both function like peer-to-peer has interpretability with d5 protocols and so on so it is something that you know i personally have pretty high hopes for uh down the road so basically like i also mentioned earlier that you know we kind of like have some hopes that this you know could represent a little bit of like the similar growth that we have seen in d5

like over here we have like the the die graph of like the supply like the market cap and over here we kind of have like exponential growth versus linear growth and i think like one thing that you know we really see with these things here where we use very complex infrastructure is that a lot of things needs to be built out where we see like a growth level which is like very underperforming right so i think like many of the assets many of the things that we've seen in in in the crypto space for example also with the whole nft boom that we have been seeing is that we see like a long time uh where it's actually underperforming right so you know we we're sticking around you know we think all of these cool things are being built but the market doesn't really move there's not

really that much interest for it but then the thing is that like once these very complex systems are built out you can actually achieve like exponential growth and this is something we've seen advanced technology quite a lot um i think you know some of the other things we see for example with electrical cars where they're like so bad for such a long time then all of a sudden it kind of like actually hits a threshold where people think okay this is something that i actually want to use and in general this is something that can be applied to to a lot of technologies both you know physical and digital technologies so with these real-world assets you know we have these like complex structures uh complicated mechanisms around it

uh and you know i believe that you know all of this is being built out so you know we are seeing a little bit grow a little bit of growth at the beginning but once all these things get you know like normalized and and you know manifested as like standards in the space i hope that we will see a similar growth as we see on both of these charts here where we could we could experience in exponential growth and of course the same as with anything else in d5 we kind of like have this like constant innovation from very strong teams um and this is you know something that that i think all of us can can reflect um so yeah just like a couple of final comments

um with the whole real world and d5 you know we really want to enable the decentralization of these systems not through only using decentralized assets but actually using diversified portfolios we believe i believe personally like if you look at the traditional market uh like traditional finance like right now you have almost endless possibilities uh there's so much stuff going on and if we can just capture like a fraction of of that in the beginning at least we would be able to really make it make it count a lot uh the good thing about you know using protocols you know for example such as maker i can only really speak on behalf of them but i know you know avi for example also has looked into these

things i think it's with realty um it's basically you know we can take these types of assets and we can bring a level of transparency and trust that we haven't really seen uh in traditional finance before we kind of like bring them out of like the black book once they sit in traditional financial institutions we bring them out into the public out into the open where they're not just getting evaluated by you know individuals sitting inside a bank or some other lender but they're actually being evaluated by community and the entire community can kind of like gather around verifying these systems together and also yeah you know i think i mentioned a couple times already but you know like scaling d5 to grow with non-crypto native assets or non-native crypto assets

is something that you know could could give us like the next kick of of growth in d5 um because yeah the current market situation's d5 is really that most of the stuff is backed by by the same asset classes um yeah so that was basically it thank you guys for spending the the last time of the day here with me and here's my contact details if you guys want to reach out to me and i don't know if we do questions here yeah we can do questions if anyone has some um so the like the three percent yield i

think it was on like the invoice um things from like centrifuge right or three percent yields um i think that that seems like quite high compared to like what you traditionally sort of would get now on the us dollars in the market so why like because the three percent seems so high like why aren't like banks just sort of you know um lending to those companies at three percent if it's if the risk is so high is there like is it actually quite risky is like a reason why it's just not not worth the effort for banks to provide a financing at seemingly high rates for those things so so i mean like invoice fine saying uh financing specifically is actually very expensive traditionally we have for example we have a very

successful danish startup where they're basically they're lending it out at one point five percent per month uh you get like basically like a bridge finance you know like uh you get like a typical 90-day financing for invoices um and they charge you like four pi 4.5 for that one of the big things with with banks and why fintech is starting to like eat away at this is that like the banks they have a lot of regulatory requirements about like the risk profiles uh and classes that they can have on their balance sheet uh so basically you know like they're not allowed to have that much exposure to stuff like this um and also like if you look into like invoice financing it's often be called like you know it's more closer like almost like predatory lending

because um you of course have some like various solid companies that you know just wants like this financing um but but like you often have like kind of like the players that you know who really needs the liquidity um who really wants to pay for it because you know they need to to basically like finance their own business over the next 90 days but the thing with invoice financing for example is that like often it's not the it's not the most of the time it's not the small business you have the counterparty to because you know they would basically send goods to like a bigger bigger company be the supplier and the bigger company would then be the one who have to pay them so you're actually like you're paying as if it's the small companies the credit rating when it's actually like you know them

supplying to like let's say like bmw or nestle or lego or something like a big company that has like the finance in check so that's why like uh you see the invoice financing generally is very expensive uh there was this report given out in australia that you saw like most of the rates for these companies was between 24 and 36 percent per year which is you know like ludicrous uh especially you know when when the counterparty is you know often the bigger company right so invoice finance financing is one of like the verticals where i believe we could do a lot of good work of course like you need some stuff to manage around it another thing is also that like we don't give the the the people in the files in this case

three percent i can't remember exactly what what it is but you basically have the two tranches so the junior and the senior tranche and the junior tranche they take all the or like they take the first you know basically like 15 default risk typically so there's like a minimum cap of like how much it needs to be but typically it's between 10 and 15 so they of course get a higher rate uh so you know like you could imagine that like they would get paid eight percent and then like the senior trans would get paid three percent um but that also means that like the the senior trans would basically have a 10 of the you know invoice portfolio needed to default before they would take a loss so you kind of divide it into that and then of course you give the lower trans

better rates um but yeah like like invoice financing is like actually one of the ones that that you know we could be very competitive in okay thank you thanks that's a really helpful talk um jeffy on the regulatory outlook with regards to all this i mean obviously securities the securities tokens one is the is the big one but um but also on the real estate angle um do you think it's a major rate limiting step the rate at which regulators get comfortable with this kind of um this kind of interface between the the real world and and d5 yeah so so i mean like in in all the setups that we've seen for

so far like both centrifuge as well as success capital they actually just completely mimic you know like how traditional company would do it so to use like most of the same mechanisms with like minor changes that doesn't have any regulatory implications on the setup so you know like for example 6s you know where we have like the truss structure that's like a very common way of of you know basically lending out to people so you place the assets in a truck in a trust structure with a trustee that has the ability to go in and take over so like if they stop paying you have this like external third party that depending on the terms and the trust can go in and liquidate it you have similar structures like europe with the spvs and the same you know like with uh centrifuge you know they're only taking

that credit to investors when they have like investors going into the pools comply with all the local securities regulation because centrifuge that is you know like it becomes a tradable security uh because they tokenized it right so so like right now most of the stuff that is being done is actually just like it's mimicking everything in the traditional system and you know you could you could even like if if you're even worried about you know having money coming from a dao you could have like a company that would basically like be the mentor of the die and just send it into them with like uh with with a contract between the two and then you would just have something that would like completely mimic how like a traditional business works except that like the flow you know could come in stable coins but you could also let it go via like an otc

and just send them usd which is also like actually what most of the companies want anyways right so in most of the setups they actually don't they never receive die they just receive usd in their bank account and everything rest is just like a structure around it so it is like a lot about creating like the correct legal structure which is also like when i show the onboarding process you know like this is like a very simplified version because you know there goes a lot of thought into how do we create a structure where we could actually do these things without getting in trouble with with you know the regulatory bodies but basically just mimic some things that we know is this is how it works in finance in general and what about security with the security token side of things that sound that

i'm curious to have your thoughts on that yeah for sure so for example like um fountain they have gotten like an approval letter from the the regulated liechtenstein to to you know do like a completely decentralized psp exchange with security tokens uh swarm they have a little bit of a different approach so they are basically creating like an environment where you know i think they're using like an nft as like an approval method in your wallet so like unless you have this nft you cannot participate in the pools you cannot hold the tokens you know they're kind of like some restrictions around it so like again you know like with the security tokens they're not like they're not free floating as like a standard erc20

you would need to have some kind of like kyc and you know accurate the investor approval around the tokens themselves um and this can of course also be like a little bit complicated with something like maker because like there we would need to know that the token could actually be inside a vault if you wanted it there and you know the vault you know because the vault basically takes custody of the tokens and cannot be kyc'd so until we get to that stage this is at least like good enough for now in regards to like them trading but you know we we hopefully you know at that point figure out some some some way of it and you know you could you could kind of like almost say that it share similarities to you know the other institutional pools that

they will be launching where like all participants in the pools or kyc it still uses permissionless permission as protocol below they might have some permissions around it though but like you can only interact if you are actually like kyc than in this network thank you very much hey thank you for the talk also on behalf of the youtube viewers who are voiceless um i had a question about the cost of onboarding if you're on board parties like centrifuge success capital that's a human process um also monitoring the quality of the

collateral in the future is a human process that costs money how is this cost accounted for who pays it and at what point in time does it become too expensive yeah so i mean um in the shout out to centrifuge and success for this but like they took on to my knowledge uh most of the cost uh in doing this onboarding right um you know they kind of like knew it was a tedious process to go through but you know really help push the innovation of that front as well going forward in the future um hopefully they'll be done more work around figuring out how to potentially cover some of these things here right but things are just for example like the

accounting and you know the reporting like all of these things that needs to be produced for the doubt to keep the asset in there uh that is something that you know you would basically need to calculate on adding on top of your rate right so like if you you know get a discount compared to the banks of like let's say 1.8 or something or 1.5 percent and you know that like the cost of having these things running would be 50 basis points i think it's something like that for example you know real world assets code would charge then you would basically be able to just say okay does this make sense for us as a business decision if your discount is you know smaller than you know 50 basis points compared to a bank then you wouldn't be able to to do it in in

a meaningful way where it would actually make sense for you um and of course also now like uh the onboarding has been very long so of course like the companies that went through it now they incurred quite some quite some cost on this front here but this is something you know like we're working quite hard on to figure out how we can we can like ease and i'd also say like a lot of the a lot of the scoping and some of these structures has been done now so hopefully that would also ease the burden of work on on the following companies because basically so the way that like maker works uh the maker governance works in this sentence right is that like you basically present like a structure or like a setup and like if they become comfortable with that setup they would be able to improve that setup in all the

scenarios as well right so that is for example like the first uni swap lp token we onboarded as collateral it took a little bit longer but as soon as we had the first one onboarded you know the next 10 became very easy uh so you know in the same with some of the all coins you know it's kind of like once you get the ball rolling and the community is comfortable with a specific setup or asset type or asset class like the subsequent onboardings will become much easier because it's basically just replicating the things that we like about the first one into like the new structures so i can't really give you like a number one like when it wouldn't be beneficial to do but like if you don't want to do it yourself uh you know there is like gonna be possibilities in the future

you know where you could like outsource that and then it's just business decision like how much cheaper is the rate we could get at maker compared to the other asset classes uh under that level um and how much would it cost for us to you know potentially have someone helping with us helping us with it or just doing it ourselves all right if there's no more questions i want to thank you all for your time and i wish you guys a good night and i'm sure you will all have a blast thank you you