GREEN DAYS BEFORE DC?! BlackRock ETH ETF Rips, Hayes On Team Jeff and Yuki In The Nest

Transcript

[music] [music] [music] [music] >> 70 2 4 >> [music] >> We'll see you around the timeline.

>> [music] >> Feels good to be back. I think The Rollup is one of the [music] most premier media brands in crypto, and Andy and Robbie are great experts [music] at everything they talk about, and it's my favorite podcast. Adding it to our library as we potentially multi-chain deployments. We are at Def Connect [music] Day 1 here. I'm broadcasting from space. >> [music] [music] [music]

[music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> JPMorgan, BlackRock, DTCC, Fidelity. The entire thing was just institutions. It's

just It's next level. This industry is going to the next level, and guys, I I don't know what else to say. I'm bullish. He said it. He finally said it. I'm so bullish. And he's bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. >> [music] [music] [music] [music]

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>> Survive Zoomout. Institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. >> [music] >> Welcome to The Nest. See you on the show. Let's Let's go. We're live. Happy Monday. I got Run a Show printed now. Boys are moving up in the world. Let's go. Yo.

It was supposed to be all this terror and triggering from the oil crisis, but our lovely Lord Trump came in and said, "Guys, we're going to have ships, and they're going to cross the Hormuz Strait, and your bags are going to pump." Once again, a hyper liquid being featured in the news, The Wall Street Journal. First episode in The Nest, we talked about the regime shift. The regime shift, excuse me. Here we are. The regime shift is playing out within 5 days. Guys, we're live.

Let's get in today's topics. We got Yuki, the co-founder of TenBin, coming in today to answer my tokenization question. Who is going to make the most money, accrue the value, and capture the value of tokenization? Guys, let's get into today's topics. We got a slot today. Got Nest Day 6. Markets, and whether it's rainy and crappy out here, as you guys can see in the beautiful, beautiful Empire State Building. Yeah, big want for that one. Timeline reactions and news. Rumor mill. Tempo mainnet? {question mark} {question mark} {question mark} Sources are telling us things. And then, of course, TenBin founder joins the show live. Our today's topics are powered by Trezor,

the best hardware wallet on the market. [cheering] Use code Rollup10 to get 10% off your order on trezor.io. Guys, uh it is a foggy morning in New York City. It is 51°. Today's temperature is slotted to hit 61. Let's get to the weather. And don't want to spend too much time on this sad weather today, cuz it's it's it's not really great. Um yeah. Temperature around 51. Uh before I get to the weather, let me tell you about Frax, the future of digital money, [screaming] open, stable, and borderless. Visit frax.com to learn more.

And guys, Frax just launched the USSD stablecoin on Sonic. Shout out to them. All right, guys, let's get to the weather. Um in the tokenization tower, it is 66° light rain, wind gust of 30 mph. Actually, Robbie's flight to DC got delayed a ton. I think he finally got on the first flight to Atlanta. I'm taking the train today, guys. Pray for me. Pray for the DC tornadoes. Unfortunately, we were hosting a happy hour uh tonight in DC that unfortunately got postponed. We were doing that with Solana Policy Institute, double zero, and some others.

Unfortunately, we're not going to be able to pull pull that off. Uh but that's where we're at. Uh scattered showers, possible thunderstorms moving through the region. Weather brought to you by Relay, some of the best cross-chain swaps in the entire market. Let's give Relay some love. Absolutely crushing it, these guys. And yeah, let's get to the markets, because the markets are hot, guys, and I know that you guys want to hear about it. Um oil opened up over the weekend. There was a guy that put out a really viral tweet. It was like, "You have 9 hours to go to spend time with your family before oil futures open."

Uh I responded a screenshot of the hyper liquid chart and said, "They've been open all weekend." They They tapped up to about 105, and they've came down. Secretary of the Treasury, uh Scott Scott's um Bessent just said that he expects oil to get back down to oil or or sorry, $80. Global stocks are mixed. Bitcoin's trading around the 74K region, as we have I think it just barely broke above Ethereum, broke above 2.3K, leading the market today. Solana, Chainlink, Near up. Shout out to our friends at Zalma, privacy, confidential applications on Ethereum, powering our digital assets market. The crypto market cap is up at about 2.6 trillion, up about 4% as

investors rotate back into risk assets, or is Bitcoin just leading? I tend to think that uh Bitcoin has kind of led the eventual move of the equities indexes, which has had a bit of a pullback. We'll [snorts] see where we go. Over $760 million of inflows into the Bitcoin ETFs and over 160 million into the Ethereum ETFs as of late. So, some institutional investors are coming in, they're buying, and they want more. So, guys, that is the markets for the day. Hyper liquid's also up to about 39.

Sky had a really strong run. Uh Centrifuge, Morpheus both doing well. Neo Finance looking strong here. Also, there's a crazy AI season happening. BitTensor is ripping, and there's a lot of these subnet tokens that are doing well. Man, let's show some love to the Tao community. People are calling for top 10 in the Tao community saying that it's going to be a top 10 asset. I'm getting folks scamming me saying that they want to come up and give us a Tao pitch. You guys tell me Tell me in the chat, in the comments, do you guys want to hear about the Bit Tensor pitch? Let me know. We can get somebody on.

All right, guys. We've got a rumor mill today. And it's spicy. And so, we're going to get into that because I think this is something that this is the one of the biggest chain launches that people are expecting from this kind of Neo finance, more like corporate, big chain. So, we're going to get into that. Before we do, let me tell you about NEAR, one of our core partners here on Rollup TV, and they are the blockchain designed for AI native applications and autonomous agents. Check out near.org to start developing today. Guys, here we are

into the biggest segment of today's show. We've got rumor mill, and we're live from the DMs today. Sources are saying Tempo mainnet is coming by the end of March. Wow. Enterprise launches the main focus for Argent payments is what I'm hearing. Stripe pulling strings here for partners big time. No token included. Don't think it comes for months. So, if you're watching this, it is March 16th. We are live here in the tokenization tower.

Our sources on rumor mill, our anonymous sources on rumor mill, are telling us that Tempo is coming. I do not have the exact date. I do not have the exact set of partners or their strategy, but we're hearing there's a mainnet and an enterprise launch kind of like jumbled into one with two specific kind of like tracks. The retail side being more on payments, more on kind of like some of the DeFi, a lot of the stuff that, you know, you or I would do. They have this new TIP-20 standard as well for their token um transfers and token types, meaning that they do not need a native token to power gas on the chain. So, that is why we are

hearing that they will not have a token on launch. Then, they've got this enterprise enterprise launch that, if you've been hearing a lot of the marketing from the Stripe side and the Tempo side, you're hearing a lot about Argent payments, and I think the reason being is that this is going to be mainly used for enterprise and commercial use cases, B2B payments contractors payroll remittances, these types of of of interest forward payments, uh credit ex- uh extensions, these types. And so, I'm expecting this kind of like bifurcated launch here based on what we we are

hearing. And I don't think that we get the the Tempo token. I think that they're going to push that off given the conditions of the market, as well as just like the state of affairs in the token market. I think if they did launch, they would not get the most of what they could. And I think that waiting for clarity, as well as waiting for a better market condition, is going to allow them to create more actual unique tokenomics around this thing. So, guys, I don't have the confirmation on this. Again, this is the rumor mill. Uh this is part of our kind of core brand here. We do get a lot of tips from different folks in the industry and outside. Guys, Tempo mainnet is coming by the end of the month. I think

that we can basically be pretty confident on that. And I And And then, I think there's a mainnet launch, an enterprise launch. Guys, stay tuned for that. That's rumor mill for today. Shout out to Tempo. They're definitely getting a lot of excitement from the market, and I think that I think it's going to be a big one. I think there's still a lot of this why do you need a chain thing happening in the rhetoric in the space. I understand that. It's totally reasonable. Um but I think this is something that kind of opens up the next era of chains. We talked about the NYSE having their own chain. I put out a post saying Circles Arc versus Stripes Tempo is going to be kind of like the next big chain war.

Guys, we'll see how this pans out. This is rumor mill. Shout out to all the sources, the credible sources, part of the Rollup community. And guys, Tempo mainnet launch expected very, very soon. We're going to get into the news, the the headlines, market commentary, timeline reactions. Before I do, we've got another lovely partner to tell you about. Shout out to Zama. Zama is building confidential applications on any blockchain. Build today at zama.org. Privacy is needed in this industry. We will not scale without it. Build confidential applications on any blockchain. Shout out to Zama.

Guys, we're going to get into today's news and today's topics. And we've got our boy Brian Armstrong, Coinbase CEO, saying operating in stealth mode is almost always a mistake. He advises against stealth mode for most startups, highlighting how public sharing accelerates your momentum. Building in public creates a network of like-minded individuals, people who want to come, help you out, support you. Um and it just brings you valuable feedback, gives you real feedback on your product, on what's happening. And so look I think this is right. I think Brian's totally spot on here. I think if you are a entrepreneur,

you have to be building in public. You should have a X profile, a LinkedIn profile. Whatever you can do to share your journey, you will attract like-minded folks, and it will open your network in such a massive way. Something that I've experienced personally, Robbie, as well. Putting yourself out there, it's not easy. I mean, when I started, I had a completely separate kind of like whole pseudonym as Andy, but it wasn't really out there. Didn't really tell my family and friends. Over the years, you start to kind of build more confidence. You put yourself out there. And, you know, you guys will see more of the evolution of the brand here. But let's just say

that we're getting away from stealth mode. In the industry at large, it is the era of the professional, as well. I think even though our boy Brian here is walking uh you know, he's walking the line in DC and operating in a very suit and tie manner, he's also rocking a uh CryptoPunk. Right? And so, I think there's a happy medium here as the space grows, and I expect more and more people to understand the value of the personal brand in and outside of digital assets. Um and looking forward to to seeing more and more of you founders out there growing your personal brand and having a founder first strategy. Let's go ahead and move on.

We got a new derivatives giant emerging. Hyperliquid has processed over $4 trillion in cumulative perpetual futures volume, putting it firmly as the center of the on-chain derivatives market. Our boy Smartest X Y Z put out a really, really intense, long, well-done report on Hyperliquid, the house of all finance. It Hyperliquid is one of the most profitable protocols in crypto with more than $1 billion in annualized revenue. It has institutional-grade performance on chain. And really, I put out a couple tweets about this. We've been very public about our position and stake in Hyperliquid. We were very early into it

in late 2024. Still continue to hold. Um and the best part of this report, I thought, was the HIP-3 metric. So, I actually put out a tweet about it on my own account about Dream Cash and kind of about the leaders of this category. And yeah, I mean, frankly, there's three big winners here. It's Dream Cash. It's Felix. And it's uh Trade X Y Z. And so, these guys are very firmly in the category of like bringing the most amount of activity on chain with non-crypto assets and doing it at scale.

And so, these guys are absolutely absolutely crushing for Hyperliquid. Um the builder ecosystem, this is part of the builder codes, is expanding beyond crypto. The HIP-3 ecosystem has already generated $93 billion in volume just that one weekend. Uh between March 7th and 10th, there was over 3 and 1/2 billion dollars in volume. Uh markets are expanding into commodities, equities, and other non-crypto assets. And also, I believe it was this past Sunday, there was the biggest amount of new user growth on Hyperliquid. I think about 6,000 new accounts signed up.

Guys, if you get a chance to check through some of this, definitely have a look at this full report here. It's very, very long. I was able to skim through some of it yesterday. Thought it was super good. Chart's ripping. It's at 39 today. Arthur Hayes calling for 150. What an animal, that guy. Got to absolutely love to see it. Let's move on, guys. This is the blockchain to house all finance. As As I said in the beginning, you guys know our position here. Jason Calacanis, I don't give financial advice, but if anyone is listening, buy a little Tao for yourself.

What What Bit Tensor even do? So, let's give this video a quick watch and see what he says. Wait, one more time. One more time.

If anyone's listening and you have $100 tow Wow.

Okay. So, there's a new catalyst in the Bit Tensor land. Um dyna- dynamic TAO subnets launched in February 2026 enabling specialized AI networks and direct capital allocation. Um Institutional interest, Grayscale is coming in. Um they obviously have a TAO ETF. There's a clip here that we just watched that had 350k views. Uh pushed TAO to number two trending on LunarCrush. I mean, yeah, this is crazy. People are calling for TAO to go to top 10. Not sure how that's going to happen, if that's going to happen. Um but bulls are

calling it the Bitcoin of AI. Skeptics argue big name endorsements may signal late-stage hype. Don't own any TAO, but I think if you are looking to make a a trade for this kind of like AI season that we're in. I've seen TAO and the subnets as kind of like the main bet. And then I've seen algo trading um account on Twitter. He's been talking about FAI. And then I have a couple other buddies talk about REI. Not financial advice, these are small market cap coins. I do not know the state of the of affairs with these teams or protocols, but I think Kalkanthes Kalkanthes is onto something here with this trade and I

think he wants to see this AI x crypto trade happen. And so yeah, I mean it's pretty cool to see him getting involved. I don't know again, I need to have somebody on the show from the Bit Tensor ecosystem to get a bit of an understanding as to what's happening, but for now, I'll leave you guys with this to make your own choice. I do not hold any TAO and maybe I'm missing out. Um so may need to readjust, but that's that's Jason. All right, guys, let's move on from Bit Tensor.

I think uh I think Jason is a is a very very strong advocate for for that project. Vitalik advocating for simplifying Ethereum's two node architecture arguing that running a node should be a basic requirement, not just for professionals. Again, part of the EF's kind of new mandate is going to be around this proposal to merge execution and consensus into a single kind of like uh client, if you will. Basically, this two client architecture requires technical expertise to set up nodes limiting participations to mostly pros and you know, people who are you know, into the tech and the Nvidia cards and the chips and the computers.

And I think there's something that the community of Ethereum is always going to stand behind. I I I'd be surprised if there was much pushback here. Um but yeah, I mean I did see some pushback about the new mandate being that they they kind of went back on what they said that they were going to do. They kind of went back on it. They were like, we want to create this new kind of like top-down hierarchical product business decision-making process and then they kind of went back to like the Milady kind of like censorship resistance like full everybody's welcome kind of thing.

There was not the best result from the community for that and then you have like the very hardcore you know, Ethereum believers and cypherpunks who really kind of stood behind it. So, definitely some mixed reviews from the EF mandate, but this right here, I don't think anyone is going to argue with it. If you were on that kind of censorship resistant maximally decentralized Ethereum architecture grind then you like this and you support it. Let's move on from Vitalik and Ethereum. So we've got Larry Fink coming here. He is he just reframed the entire AI /

infrastructure race. Um basically the there's a labor gap. Over 300,000 new electricians will be needed by 2036 alongside about 200 expected retiring electricians. Uh so BlackRock is investing $100 million into trade training programs to help close the workforce gap. Let's go ahead and scroll down and see if we can get this video up. Um there's a massive demand for power, cooling, and physical infrastructure um for data centers.

And so the US is currently leading in AI chips and tech innovation. China has a potential advantage in the labor scale and infra deployment. Let's hear what Larry has to say about it. We believe a huge So, here's what he's talking about about the projected uh job growth. And kind of what they're doing. What that means is going to be creating

huge amount of jobs in construction, in building out our grid, in building out data centers, making sure that we have energy resilience. And so it's going to create a huge amount of jobs. We don't have enough skilled workers to meet the needs of these jobs. We're not ready for it and we have to win. If we don't win this, China's going to win. Where we believe the huge job growth is going to be is going to be in the build out of our infrastructure. Now, what that means is going to be creating huge amount of jobs in construction, in building out our grid, in building out data centers, making sure that we have energy re- This is kind of ironic because people in my generation age 25, 26, 27, they don't really want to join

trade jobs. And not a lot of them are really actually even thinking about it. And so there's this massive gap right now where there's a lot of trade jobs that need to get filled and not a lot of people that want to do them. Like I have a couple buddies who work in plumbing, uh construction, uh uh um electricians and they have a ton of work. They're they're able to set the market price as they want. And they're kind of just like freeballing it and doing very well. So, I think Larry is right here. It's very interesting to see all the knock-on effects from the AI like basically super cycle of investing.

There's kind of no cap on it. And there's all these knock-on effects to like rare earth metals, data centers, power, uh jobs. There's almost like a whole new sector revival happening due to the amount of investments into AI and into global data centers. So, cool clip from Larry there. Let's go ahead and move on into BlackRock. More from Larry uh or his firm at least which is BlackRock's new Ethereum ETF, the staked ETHB. So, we're going to get into that here, guys, in just a second and our lovely first guest, Yuki, has just joined here.

Last news topic of the day. BlackRock head of digital assets says the new ETH staking ETF is the silver bullet for institutional investors. Let's go ahead and scroll down and watch this video. See what these guys are are see what their pitch is. Let's do a little pitch grading here of what our guys are pitching to the masses about Ethereum and the staked ETH ETF. Basically, this is a new ETF, ETHB that will allow people to stake ETH in some respects. We think about what the ETPs did for Bitcoin, that was pretty close to a silver bullet for a lot of investors in terms of being able to access Bitcoin in a super convenient turnkey accessible

low-cost way. It wasn't quite the same for the original ETPs and ether because you didn't have the staking yield capture as part of it. So obviously there was tremendous resonance to the initial launch of the the ether ETPs as well and ETHA was the third fastest ETF in history to reach 10 billion in AUM after IBIT and FBTC. But they they did have this limitation and so now with staking in it, it becomes much closer like the Bitcoin ETPs were to a silver bullet for a lot of investors in terms of the silver >> Silver bullet and exposure vehicle.

Yeah, I think that's a great way of framing it. In some respects I think about what the ETPs did for This one is new. This generates yield through staking. Obviously kind of not in interesting re-staking or DeFi apps, just pure staking. And yeah, I think this was part of like that triple point Ethereum thesis that we heard back in the day. It's kind of coming back where like all investors want yield and it's really really interesting I think to them to get an additional yield on Ethereum and then also understand how it's used like a commodity instrument for gas and for transaction fees. And then it's also something that um you can have this in this kind of store value bucket. And so

yeah, I think I think there's some interest from the institutions in in ETH staking. Obviously ETH is up 17% the last week or so and I think Larry Fink and BlackRock are going to keep entering ETH and they want to provide these staking ETFs to institutional investors who want yield as part of their investment strategy. It's kind of like why would you why would you not have yield if you could have yield? Right? So. All right guys, that wraps our news for the day. We've got Yuki, he's in the building. He's going to join us live in the tokenization tower next. We're going to take a super quick break and we'll be right back with Yuki live in the tokenization tower. Guys, don't go anywhere. We're going to talk tokenization, who accrues the value, who captures value. 10b

Tokenizing CME futures and more. Be right back guys. >> [music] [music] [music] [music]

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[music] >> Ha All right you guys, we are live in the tokenization tower with the 10b co-founder Yuki Yumanga. Yuki, it's good to see you again, man. Good to see you Andy as always. >> to the tower. Yeah, thank you very much for inviting us. I I didn't know it was live. I just came in. I was like, "Damn, this is an amazing setup Andy got here."

So yeah, thanks for inviting. Thank you. Thank you Yuki. Thank you. Well, we brought you here today to talk tokenization. Um I think there is a lot of information that we can talk about and share and just kind of help educate people. I put out this tweet today and I'm going to pull it up. I I just showed it to you and I said if the tokenization thesis is correct and trillions of dollars of new assets move on chain in the coming years, which company will benefit the most? What would you What is the right kind of like mental model to think about the beneficiaries of this massive asset movement on chain?

Yeah, so I think I will break it down into two level. One is the issuance side of things. Obviously if you bring those assets on chain, well, the issuers are also going to be doing a lot of work to make that happen and so if you ask like, "Okay, what is the biggest beneficiaries?" Well, issuer will have to be one of them. Same as like stablecoin issuance. Like Tether is one of the biggest company because stablecoin is the biggest biggest asset on chain. So I would say that issuer is definitely one of them. But there's also uh another sort of like the downstream beneficiary of that which in my opinion is sometimes might be overlooked is the lending protocol. Okay.

>> So um a lot of the time uh when we think about like asset tokenization, uh we should be asking ourselves, why do we tokenize this this asset? And I think um my general thesis around tokenization has been that we should tokenize assets that any assets that people would like to hold. That people would keep in their positions and maybe for you know, hedging their macro exposure or hedging their US dollar exposure, whatever that might be. Some some assets that they're willing to hold. That's what I think is an assets that are good to be tokenized. But if you also have an assets that are good to hold, you'll generally create incentive for people to

collateralize it. And that's when the lending protocol would come in so that people can use those DeFi existing DeFi venues like Morpho Aave Horizon or even just Aave Broly to collateralize those tokenized assets and then do more strategy on top of it, whether be using that to finance their strategies on chain or whatever that might be. So my my general two take is one on the first level is the issuers that would obviously benefit from issuing those assets. And then two are the downstream protocols that enables those assets to be collateralized like lending protocol for example. So that those two are where I think is probably the where the most of the benefit will go. I would just add

one more thing is that exchanges because I think the first point that people will be thinking is like, "Oh, well, exchange should also benefit from that." And yes, they would. But if you compare that to the extent of like let's say the perp trading volume that is happening on RWA assets. Like or and and maybe even some of the like meme coin and those crazy volatile assets. Like arguably exchanges benefit more from very volatile asset exposures. But on the other hand, for assets that are very volatile, it may not be the best asset to hold on chain. There's a reason why people consider gold as like the the the the value value preservation

because it holds value. It doesn't just drop like 20% a day. And I think you know, there's there's there's that aspect of like the nature of assets that makes some of those like you know, asset tokenization to make a lot more sense. And so I think exchange does benefit, but I in my opinion like exchange already have perps and I think perps to a very large extent already benefited those exchange without even tokenizing those assets. >> Yeah. Yeah, so I think I I consider these two as a kind of like a separate dimension. Yeah. Okay, so from the top issuers and the kind of like lending protocols or the DeFi protocols on chain

that are recipients of those assets coming on chain, boosting their TVL, allowing people to collateralize them, borrow against them, loop them, use them in whatever platform. And so, is it fair to say that the mental model that we've been having for valuing on chain protocols um is been restricted to just in the crypto asset landscape? Like Like our mental model is like you have ETH, Bitcoin, and stablecoins as the collateral assets, and you know, a handful of others, and that is what the market size is. But you're saying that if this thesis comes true, the market size is not just going to be the crypto assets, it's whatever assets we

can tokenize and bring on chain, that will be the new market size or the new TAM for these on chain protocols. 100%. That's That's the future that I'm trying to fight for right now because and and and this kind of get into like a lot of the the core problem that I see in the market right now, which is that you you have a lot of tokenized assets that are ranging from, you know, private credits to tokenized funds and then to commodities and and many many other type of assets extending from that.

But one of the biggest problem with those assets that are sitting on chain right now is the liquidity of the assets. The price discovery and the main liquidity sources has always been sitting off chain in the traditional markets, which is where most of the institutions are hedging their positions and holding their balance sheet right now. If we're going to see a future where those tokenized assets are going to come on chain in a way that start to make sense for people to allocate those capital on chain, we have to make sure that we can at least even the playing ground between the off chain liquidity venue and the on chain venue.

And right now we're not there at all. We're we're very far from that. Okay. Okay, so practically speaking, this looks like whatever the liquidity depth is across a certain, you know, pair of markets in the traditional NYSE, CME, etc., you're you're basically saying our goal as an industry with what you're building at at 10Bin is to basically equal this. Make these as equal as possible or as close as possible. Exactly. So, as close as possible in in in terms of both the pricing of the asset itself, as well as the liquidity of the asset. Now, let me start with with the pricing part. So, um

for for a lot of the market maker who are observing the the market very closely, they might notice, but a lot of those tokenized assets, some of the biggest one like, for example, tokenized gold, right? They're the most like famous, notable one out there. They have been notoriously been traded either in a discount or at a premium against the actual market price. And this discount and premium is not like just, you know, 20 bips or whatever. It it can be anywhere in the range of like 1% potentially. So, it's a really significant one. And I think until like last week, I I I I remember Tether gold was trading at at around like 1% below the market price. So, a lot of this is caused by the frictions associated with

the the tokenization procedures of the existing assets. And these procedures can include like, okay, how long does it take to settle the trade? Like the market maker will put the money into the the hands of those issuers, how long does it take to get the tokenized asset back to the hand of market makers? Every seconds, every hours that take to get the asset back to the hands of market maker is opportunity cost for the market makers to use that capital to make money elsewhere. Of course. And on top of that, they may have to even pay a half percent to either mint or maybe redeem the assets. And that basically start also eating into the margin of market making businesses of making this asset liquid on whatever exchanges that

they're market making. Mhm. So, that kind of like you see like the pricing and the liquidity is like extremely intertwined in a sense that the the way in which this tokenization happens on chain would directly impact how this asset how liquid this asset is and how the asset will be priced on chain as well. Yeah. Yeah, and there was actually a recent article, I think it was in the Wall Street Journal or a a similar post about kind of how institutions are actually kind of like resisting this 24/7 trading because they have to kind of redesign their infrastructure for fast for, you know, instant settlement for not T+1, T+2. And so, this article kind of went on to say that it's likely

that retail will be kind of the initial users of this kind of 24/7 trading. And then eventually institutions will kind of get on board. I feel like this kind of goes hand in hand with what you're saying here, which is that there are all these kind of liquidity and reserve management issues that happen when you tokenize hard assets. So, for example, right? Like when you're tokenizing gold, you know, you have your gold stored in a vault in Switzerland somewhere, and you get this kind of note. Maybe you could just like walk us through like like what is the tokenization process right now for hard assets? And then like where do you see that as being broken? Yeah. So, I guess I wouldn't necessarily say it's

like broken in a sense that, you know, TradFi has been dealing with this for like many many tens of decades of, you know, so so in in a TradFi standard, I guess it might not necessarily be broken. But to kind of answer your question, yeah, like you would basically either put in the you can either put in the physical good like in the case of gold like physical gold or just give the USDC, and then they the issuer will take the USDC, purchase the gold from the brokers, and then will store it either in, you know, the the the the Switzerland custody that they have, or recently there's a new new one popping up in Singapore. There's a bunch of like gold physical custody

solutions out there, and you will just like store there, and then you will reflect that storage in a form of like tokenized asset, and then you will basically receive that. Now, this process, depending on how big of the order is, if the order is like relatively small, they might be able to do it like maybe in less than like couple hours, for example. But if the order is like big, then it might take like one day, maybe even longer, two day, depending on how big the how big that order is. And And when I say big, it's not even like like crazy big. Like it could be above like few million dollars, then they will start to have to do this entire processes, and then it can take like two days, three days to settle that trade. So, now in terms of like the broken part,

the reason why I think it's extremely broken is because you have a market that is already very liquid for those assets. Like gold is one of the most liquid assets. Like no one should argue about that. But the reason why it's not liquid on chain is because every time we bring those assets on chain, we are re-bootstrapping the liquidity on chain at the same time. We're like, oh my god, we have this tokenized gold. Oh, let me bootstrap a hand-in-hand liquidity. Oh, we need to incentivize the LP so we can get like $20 sitting on the LP pool doing nothing. And and and the reason why I say doing nothing is is not not because like they actually don't do anything. It's just because the the price of gold doesn't move that much. So, so like compared to like some meme coin, the LP won't be

able to make as much like LP revenue, you know, right? If if if there's not that much trade happening. So, like them putting their money there is like strictly, you know, negative return if the if the volatility is not that high. So, anyway, that a lot of this like incentive cycle, if you if you just kind of follow the the the the path of logic here, you'll realize that re-bootstrapping LP on chain and liquidity on chain is insanely challenging. And this is what Tether and Paxos have been doing already for the past, you know, five years, right? Half a decade already.

And yet we haven't really reached a point where the liquidity we can ever say is the same off chain. So, that's why I think that's why we are trying to basically come up with a better better solution or different solution so that we can provide alternative pathway to to access that that liquidity off chain, and then we can, you know, hopefully facilitate a better tokenized assets that can be more efficiently used on chain across like lending protocol, DeFi protocol, etc. Okay, and I'd like to get more into 10Bin, exactly what you guys are doing.

Before, I'd like to do a just quick education and kind of ask, why do we even need to do this whole process of tokenizing these assets, bringing them on chain, having their represents representation on chain? Why can't we just trade perps with them? Like I guess you're saying that there's a collateralization, there's this capital efficiency unlock. Like walk us through like the perps to direct tokenization spectrum here. And kind of like, why do we need tokenized assets? Like why is it something that is actually important?

>> Yeah. This is actually a great question because I, you know, before I started 10Bin, I also asked asked myself a lot in terms of like this like perp question. I think one of the biggest reason why I believe tokenization is very important, and I kind of alluded this earlier in the conversation, is the store value. Like if if I think that the asset is a store value, Like Bitcoin is one example. Um I might be using Perp to speculate the short-term volatility of the assets, but I won't be using Perp to hold the net worth of that assets on my balance sheet. Like I wouldn't be

comfortable Have like [laughter] a 1x long, 1x short or something. >> Like I wouldn't be comfortable if I had a 90% of my net worth sitting on a 1x long positions on Perps. Because anything could happen on Perps. >> Understood. And and we have seen that many, many times already. So I I don't think the market needs a better education on the danger of Perps and why you shouldn't hold 99% of your net worth in Perps. And if you are, you should be diversifying some of that capital, I think. So that's why I think the tokenization part would have really shine here. Yeah. And so when it comes to tokenizing equities, there's kind of a whole nuanced conversation to be had there about ownership, about rights. But

as far as what you guys have focused on at Tenbin, is it more around gold? Is it more around metals? Things with less kind of like equity-like >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So um we we we are actually currently focusing on precious metals, commodities, and a yield-bearing FX assets. So like like like a like a non-USD currencies, etc. etc. Um and I and obviously like I I say yield-bearing because a lot of those non-USD assets are very yield-bearing to varying degree. So so yeah, and that's also very exciting product that we're trying to trying to bring on chain. Yeah. Yeah, I mean let's talk about tokenized gold, right?

It's had this It's had this huge run in terms of price and in terms of kind of like overall usage on chain. Let's talk about the tokenization process that you're trying to implement here, right? From what I understand, it's this kind of concept of tokenizing the CME future contract of a given hard asset rather than actually dealing with the physical of it itself. Yeah. How does this work? Could you kind of unpack the mechanism of tokenizing CME futures and what that means? Sure, sure, sure.

So to to kind of like give some example here, um what we are doing as as a Tenbin protocol is effectively providing users the spot asset exposure to whatever commodity, precious metal, FX assets that we bring on chain, right? So it's all spot exposure. However, we will instead of holding the spot asset in the inventory, in a in a in a custodian, which takes a huge, you know, drags and settlement delay, what we do is we would effectively hedge those positions uh immediately, near instantly, on CME futures, which we set up the account for. And and by doing

such hedges, what we can do is that we provide those hedges and and this obviously, depending on the asset, they would have a different basis premium or discount associated with the with the pricing of the assets. And if it is if the basis is is above the spot price, that's called premium. If the basis is below the spot price, that's called discount. And depending on that assets, it would have either premium or discount. And uh what we do is basically we manage that premium and discount. Sometimes, if the asset is is is basically trading at a discount on futures, that discount would effectively be translated into a yield for the assets because the discount would over

time converge to the spot, which is called a basis decay. It's a It's a It's a phenomena on the future side. And we will capture that decayed and that becomes the yield for that tokenized assets. On the other hand, for premium, premium will also decay eventually to the spot price, but this premium is effectively a cost that we have to bear as a as a protocol to perform those hedges like like like a like a hedging the the gold price on on on CME. This basis is something that we will effectively cover by using the USDC collateral that user would deposit on chain. So at all times, the protocol will be kept one-to-one in value between

the asset that is tokenized in spot spot value and the collateral that we hold in USDC value. So every assets that we hold on on chain, off chain, will be backed by USD and USDC. And some of the premium premium basis premium will effectively be covered in full or in part by the yield that we generate. Like let's say, I don't know, whatever T-bill rate or some some some low-risk rate that we generate on chain with the USDC that we hold on the protocol collateral.

Okay, so effectively this strategy is you never have to actually own the physical underlying. Um I'm a user, I come on, I want to have $10 million of tokenized gold exposure. You're able to provide me that exposure in price up or down on the beta of that. And you're basically running a strategy that is hedging any excessive volatility in gold and using the premium or the discount to either pay to own that contract or get paid to own the contract, and then you're taking the stable coins that I would deposit

into the protocol um and using those in you know, low-risk treasury instruments. And so you're providing me with the upside or downside of that asset that I want to own and then like a receipt token as well? Yes. That's right. So you will receive the token and then depending on the assets, it could be either yielding a very low amount of APY or yielding a very high amount of API. Now, to give us some some example here, Yeah. um gold is known as notoriously one of the higher premium assets on on on futures. So >> So more expensive to hedge.

>> expensive to hedge. And and what that means is that the the prospective yield on those on those assets by default is going to be pretty pretty low. Like it's it's not going to be anything crazy. Like if we can, you know, offer anywhere in the range of 0.5% or 1% or whatever, like that would be great already. >> Okay. Um because typically, if you go to like if you actually lend out physical gold, you may get like 2 to 3% per year, but you will have to lock up the gold like for like half a year to 1 year lockup period, which is not liquid. So we we're not doing that, but we might be able to still offer like a little bits of like a little bonus yield. So it's

like it's like a really small, but better than nothing kind of things. For something like Brazilian real or some of those like other currencies, they natively have a lot of yield. Like Brazilian real T-bill rate is sitting around like 4 14% right now. And so that yield is effectively what we will be able to capture with our hedged CME positions plus the on-chain yield combined, we'll be able to get roughly around like 13 to 40%. And that will get translated back to the yield for the asset holders.

Right. >> And this uh and this is not only just Brazilian real. We can do with the Mexican peso, Swiss franc, euro, whatever assets that we decide to pursue. And this is very exciting because now we we not only have an assets that are I guess yield-bearing to whatever degree, we also have an assets, and I think I haven't got to that part yet, but we have an assets that can be liquid immediately on chain. I think that's probably the most important value proposition that we're trying to provide as a as a asset tokenization protocol.

Okay. So a couple questions here that come to mind. First, how does this break, right? Like we have a scenario where there are excessive volatility in an underlying asset that people want to uh hold through Tenbin and they want to pull out, they want to sell, they're, you know, kind of freaking out about the price. Yep. You guys didn't hedge enough or you or you hedged too much. Like I know you thought about this. Like where where does this model break? Like if there's too much volatility, if you guys spend too much money on hedging, paid too much in premium, then you guys kind of lose money over time. Or is or is there like a catast- like like what

is the what is the thing that you're worried about from the risk management side of this? For sure. So obviously, what like for any asset issuance protocol, one of the biggest concern is bank run, right? People will be like, "Oh my god, assets depegging." Like everybody start withdrawing the capital, etc. etc. So let's kind of just walk through what could be the possible scenario here. So from from our protocol side, we we we basically optimize for maintaining that USD USDC collateral. As much as we can, we will keep it in the form of USDC. And this is something that hopefully we can you know, people will be able to use

more more frequently in the future, but we are effectively trying to maintain as much of the USD collateral in the form of USDC. Mhm. >> This enables us to effectively redeem uh those uh say tokenized gold or whatever assets back to US CC atomically and instantly on chain um up to let's say 70% of the entire protocol TVL. If you have a hundred million dollars, we will be able to process potentially like 70 million dollars of the redemptions. Mhm. Let's say in a in a day or so. And and this is something that we will try to achieve and and optimize into the futures where entirety of the protocol or close to entirety can

be maintained in the form of US CC. And that way we can offer the on-chain liquidity as fast as possible, faster than anybody that is available in the tokenization space. And that's also one of the things that we're trying to optimize so that we can we can we can basically process any of those like redemption withdrawal demand as fast as possible, as instantly as possible. Now, in a normal circumstances where there's no that kind of like, you know, bank run type of scenarios, what we offer by default is that any minters, redeemers that are working with our protocol, a lot of them are liquid funds, market makers, etc., they will be able to receive atomic minting and redemption

of those tokenized assets up to like a quite a big size of a margin. And that is what we provide. And this is very important because once you get an a pro once you get access to atomic redemptions, that means that now you you you let's say you're a liquidator on Aave or or Morpho, you can liquidate uh a big big size of the underlying tembing asset collateral that is that people use to borrow money, they can basically liquidate all of it near instantly, atomically Yeah. on Ethereum.

And that's that's the kind of like the the the the property that we try to provide for our tokenized assets. And that is also another way of saying that we want to reduce if not eliminate the reliance on AMM liquidity as much as possible. Like we frankly we do not want to rely on on those AMM liquidity because I've seen and you've seen with the the Aave USDT swap as well. Like like I've seen a lot of the crazy that happened with those AMM swaps in large size and it just doesn't doesn't work. Um and I I don't think it you know, if you're going to bring like hundreds of different assets

tokenized on chain, it's going to be even worse. Yeah. >> So, yeah. Yeah, so you just want to avoid these kind of endless derivative tokens of tons of different tokenized assets and then having to create a liquidity pool for each and every single derivative. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. So, we want to try to avoid that, yeah. And so basically your platform would be the only venue to mint or redeem these assets. They wouldn't go trade them on any external exchanges, but they could use the receipt token or that or that tokenized asset in other DeFi protocols as you kind of work through partnerships and integrations there. Yeah, so the only secondary liquidity venue that I'm actually very excited to push is order book. Okay. Um

yeah, that that's where I think in general like long term we have the solid atomic liquidation guarantee from a primary issuance protocol and then we have the order book changes, let's say like Hyperliquid spot or whatever spot exchanges that people can you know, people who who have the inventory can park the liquidity, market make it or whatever they want to do with it. >> Mhm. I think I'm basically skipping that AMM going straight to the spot order book. And and I can skip it because our protocol can provide that atomic liquidation guarantee. Yeah, I'd like to ask you about what happened actually with the Aave trade just from your MEV roots and perspective there. So, there's

that $50 million Aave trade that returned only $36,000 in Aave tokens which exposed massive MEV extraction, about 44 to 47 million dollars captured by bots. >> Yep. What does this say about the state of AMMs, about the state of Ethereum's execution on chain? What happened here and what's your take on this? Who's at fault and what what is the underlying kind of like lesson? Yeah, for sure. So, to to kind of start with the the conclusion, I think a lot of you guys probably seen the the debrief and and and and the news there.

I was actually digging through the chain when I when this happened exactly at the moment, so I >> Classic you here digging through the chain. Yeah, yeah, I also I also made a lot of posts about it. Uh So, I think in conclusion, AMM will exist and will continue to exist. But I think the usage of AMM um will be over time somewhat more specialized slash maybe a little bit more marginalized to ex extent. >> Yeah. Um and when I when I say marginalized, it's not that nobody's going to use it. No, a lot of people still going to use BTC ETH pair on Uniswap. A lot of people still going to use the stable coin swap pair on like curves etc.

But when I say marginalized, it means that there's so many assets out there and and in my opinion, there are only certain assets that would make sense to stay on AMM and and have some liquidity. Like for example, meme coin because they're not going to get listed on some spot exchanges, so they would just much prefer to have liquidity on on on AMM. You have some of the major blue chip tokens that have that already have a lot of people holding it and they don't mind putting the LP token into those AMM pool and just like hold it there forever. They're like a diamond hands. They're they're willing to hold BTC ETH LP pair because they think they're like highly correlated etc.

There are assets that are LP aligned, aligned with the liquidity providers. There are assets that are aligned with the token issuers and they're they're they're like small enough that they can just deploy a small pool and then still be able to trade it. But you have this a massive gap in the middle, which is the assets that are not blue chip, but also not a meme coin. Mhm. And these are the assets that I think is going to have a bit of a tough time because you're like you're asking the foundations like, okay, you know, you can continue incentivizing those LP pool, but people are not willing to park the let's say, I don't know, Aave versus USDC pair on on AMM.

But then if if if the if people are not willing to park it there because maybe Aave is like more like a trading assets versus like a value holding assets. If they're not willing to park there, then where are you going to source the liquidity from? Well, you got to source it from order book or some sort of like a market maker OTC type of stuff. Um and that's when the AMM assumptions start to kind of fall a bit weaker because those assets that are not necessarily favored by those big LPs holding like hundreds of millions of dollars, it often time doesn't get as much love on the AMM side.

>> Right. Yeah, and this is where I think the AMM when when I say marginalized, AMM may have a bit more specialized role in the in the DeFi space for for for certain assets, but may not necessarily be the sort of like the solution for every assets in the like broad range of assets that we see in the crypto space. Yeah. Okay, so so kind of a shift towards central limit order books for spot trading. Obviously, that's what derivatives trading is ran on now. >> Yep. And and then that's also your thesis for tokenized assets assets as well. Yes.

>> Is that they will be primarily traded on order books rather than AMMs because you you just want a market maker that has the inventory, can put it up, make a market on an order book. Does you don't have to incentivize the pool and you kind of get this better trading experience for traders also who want to do limit orders and and kind of have a club interface. Yep. And then it also is the same the same place where you trade perps, too. It's kind of all-in-one. And and we want to we want to make sure that while market maker do all of this, they can rebalance their inventory frictionlessly and feelessly on our on our protocol.

And they don't have to wait. They don't have to get like some big fee on minting redemptions. They don't have to have 1.5 million dollars of inventory minimum cap to redeem their tokenized gold assets for example. Like they don't have to face any of that limitations and just seamlessly mint and redeem, mint and redeem, mint and redeem. That's what we want to achieve. >> So, when you say marginalized, do you think that the that we've seen the maximum growth of AMMs as a as a utility in the DeFi space? Like is the shift going to happen rapidly? Like like are AMMs dead? Like what's happening here? So, I think I want to just to clarify. I think on Ethereum, AMMs still makes a lot of sense. Okay.

But you are starting to see this already. But on on other chains, AMM is making less and less sense now. Because they're faster, cheaper, you can just do order books or what? You can do prop AMM. Okay. Yeah. So, so instead of just doing a normal AMM and you let the searchers and and market makers to pick off the passive liquidity, Yep. you can simply just do a prop AMM where you are the market maker, you are the maker yourself. You are the one that is managing the LP position like, you know, adjusting it 14 times per second or 14 times per block. Mhm. You are effectively using your inventory or whatever vault that you have for example, to manage those capital, to quote the assets so tight in the range

that you can basically kind of replicate the market maker activity that you already do on on order books, but on like on a prop AMM structure. Mhm. So, that's that's another pathway that I can see, but that would be more for like a fast chain because it's not going to work for like Ethereum is like 12 blocks or a 12-second block, so that's not going to doesn't going to work. Yeah. Yeah. And so, in CowSwap's model, they they have this kind of fill or kill orders, right? Based on their solver network and and their intense architecture. Do you think that this was a fault of that architecture?

Is it a user error? Is it Aave's front-end error? Is it a combination? Who's to blame here? Yeah, so to to to be honest, I think uh assuming that the users actually ticked off whatever front-end warning that Aave and CowSwap already gave them, obviously it's a very irresponsible thing to to tick off a 99% slippage, but you know, assuming that they did, I think I would actually attribute the biggest problem here to the user itself. Because I I I think we we should like with with just like a, you know, uh normal

knowledge of everybody, like we should know that in any market you market dump $50 million is going to crash the out of the market. Like there's going to like, you know, like a hairpin type of things right? >> Yeah. So, like I I mean I mean you do it on Binance, you're going to get the same thing. Except that maybe you know, less worse than on chain, but still you're going to like get a very bad slippage there. So, I just think that uh you know, uh doing a market order on a 50 million on chain on CowSwap is, personally I think it's a very irresponsible thing to do.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you get I really enjoyed this conversation because we've kind of taken this like tokenization as a really big important trend that is going to continue to grow, and we've kind of explained the intricacies of how it's happening, kind of how 10B's approaching it, and then now gotten into some of the intricacies on chain >> Yeah. that are going to need to improve such that we can actually facilitate the onboarding of all of these assets on chain. So, let's just kind of go a bit a bit uh deeper here into these changes. What other market structure or infrastructure changes >> Mhm. do you anticipate being required to facilitate global markets on chain?

>> Right? We're talking about making this equal liquidity depth and liquidity profile from off-chain and on-chain. We talked about prop AMMs, AMMs, order books. >> Mhm. What else? What other infrastructure changes need to change on chain to facilitate the trading of of tokenized global markets? >> Yeah, for sure. So, um I cannot say the same thing for equity. So, I'm going to be mostly talking from my understanding of the broader commodity markets, FX, etc. Mhm. Um but first and foremost, the the requirements of having an instant redemptions or instant liquidations and minting facility on chain is is a must for a market maker to say that, "Oh my

god, this asset is so easy to rebalance on my inventory. In fact, I may not even keep that much inventory because I can just mint redeem mint redeem so fast on chain, right? Without any fees." Yeah. Amazing. So, that's the base requirements that we have to have. And then on top of that, it would be amazing, obviously I mean we already have a great order book that have a liquidity for example, but you know, it would be amazing if there are, you know, uh a lot of uh interesting prop AMMs uh that will be able to make the market for these kind of assets, let's say natively on base or BNB or Solana, because that would make the, you know, the work of market making these assets um a lot more efficient than just like parking uh idle

on a on a AMM uh pool there. Um and I think um obviously uh with with with that on top, uh if we have a aggregator that also like plug in a lot of those like prop AMM shops, that would be able to like kind of a better uh sort of like reflect, not not reflect, better recreate the environment uh by which you will be basically trading on order book, but except it's going to be on chain during dealing with all those prop AMM managed by uh uh either liquid funds or vaults or some automated strategies out there. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yuki, as we come to a close here, uh thinking about where we go with tokenized assets, >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. with tokenized treasuries, stablecoins obviously being more in the non-speculative bucket, Mhm. and then thinking more about kind of like what this more speculative bucket looks like, tokenized equities, tokenized commodities, what is what is kind of like the core pillars of the foundational growth that you see that is going to happen over the next 2 years? What is the the driving forces Mhm. of tokenized asset growth on chain, right? And I kind of like give you a bit of context here. I think part of it is that we live in a much more uh entropy acceleration

uh version of the world where, you know, there's a headline one day and the next day and the next day and it just continuously kind of like creates this world where people want to speculate 24/7. They want they want to have access to markets on on the weekends because there are headlines that are coming on the other firms, etc. That's just like one part of my thesis driving the tokenized asset trading 24/7. What are some of the core pillars that you believe are driving this trend and will continue to drive this kind of tokenization supercycle? Yeah. So, uh I would I would maybe touch on two points. One is what you described, which is the the 24-hour 24/7 settlement. I I think that's

actually extremely important. Like with the growth of like uh RWA perps, right? Like those HIP 3 and those like tokenized uh those traditional asset perps, with that growth, it actually lays a really fertile ground for projects like us to bring those actual RWA assets, those tokenized assets on chain because now you have the perp version and you have the tokenized asset version, and you know what people do when you have the spot and the perps, there's a lot of interesting things that can happen between them, right? Um you know, not going to deal with too much there, but you know, there's a lot of interesting stuff that can happen there.

And then so so that's one, and then another part is that and this is a maybe like few few more years down the road, but uh what I believe uh to be the future of those organizations that once we can equal the playing ground, as I mentioned earlier, equal the pricing, equal the liquidity, and people will be like, "Wait a minute, these assets are, you know, as good if not better than those off-chain assets." We want to make those tokenized assets effectively better and more useful Mhm. than whatever that is sitting in the off-chain counterparts. We want to make sure that these assets are like, you know, like when they're in the in the custody, they might be not doing anything. But be because they are now

tokenized on on chain, they can do so many things. Yeah. I want to make those tokenized assets be, and that's what I think would it ultimately drive the broader adoption of asset tokenization. That is not just within this like crypto market making circle, but like beyond, maybe even like to the retails and those like family offices in Asia's, and they're like they they never touched those, Yeah. Bitcoin before, but they actually may start touching those tokenized uh gold before gold gold for the first time on chain. >> on chain.

>> The first asset that they touch may not be Bitcoin anymore. Or a crypto asset in general. Or exactly, or crypto asset. The first asset they touch maybe is the tokenized assets. And I think that's where I want to pursue, and that's not going to happen if the assets on chain are strictly worse in pricing and liquidity than the off-chain counterparts. Ladies and gentlemen, I think it's fair to say, "Do more with your assets" is a very simple pitch for tokenization. Yeah. Do more, collateralize, borrow, lend, loop, and more. Yuki Yumanga, thanks for coming out today. Great conversation. Congrats on the raise.

Some big names there. Ladies and gentlemen, that wraps up for Rollup TV. Let's give some love to Yuki. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right, guys. We'll be live tomorrow from DC Blockchain Summit talking policy, talking Clarity Act, market structure bill with senators, lawyers, DeFi founders, CEOs, and more. Guys, we'll be live for 4 to 5 hours Tuesday, Wednesday from DC. I've got a train to catch. Much love. Mahalo. See you guys tomorrow live on Rollup TV. Thank you, Andy. Cheers. >> [music] [music]