Gaming on the Blockchain

Transcript

[Music] okay hi everybody uh my name is Wendell Davis this is the gaming on the blockchain panel um I have with us here uh Tyler Smith from uh free my vunk which I guess you guys just got a little bit Taste of there uh we have Peter Bora uh primarily known I guess for Dow Wars and also some uh ethereum Rogue likee implementations uh we have Julian pman who is uh doing the poker work at consensus and we have Vin Gupta who is

of course the Strategic consultant actually how would you describe your role Arctic strategic architect at consensus and general renaissance man as you know him very well so there's a lot to cover here so let's just get right into it um the first thing I kind of want to talk about is uh generally how gaming will change as a result of blockchain Technology um I was a part of some discussions uh some time ago about about this with I think Adam B LaVine talking about how in the future it may be the case that in fact gamers are kind of like the Breadwinners of families uh that a lot of work as a result of automation Etc May shift over to kind of uh interesting creative game gaming

oriented labor as it were work and uh I I kind of want to get some feedback about that and I guess I want to open this up first of all uh maybe to how about Peter sure uh so yeah I think I think it's there are a lot of different roles that people play in games right there are people who play games uh you know primarily for fun on the weekends there people who grind every day there people who create content for games uh and you know various sorts of user generated content uh ways there are people who play games for an audience on Twitch uh and I think that sort of all of these roles have different economic considerations right they have different

uh implications and I think a lot of them can be monetized especially things that have a creative element because when they're you know creating content for a game or when they are uh you know building something you know with the whole free my vunk thing uh like when you're actually generating value then that you should be rewarded for that and I think blockchains by being a really good way to spread value our natural solution vid you're very interested in the Pro gaming segment what do you think about this topic well I think that it's not unusual to us that musicians might be you know primary earners in families or uh dancers actors performers writers so the idea that games and gaming you

know are a kind of modern art form that's beginning to acquire sort of legitimate status in an economy seems pretty natural um as for where that goes over time I mean you know if you think about the size of the movie industry and how much larger the gaming industry is in the movie industry the idea that you would have essentially kind of professionalization all the way through seems rational but a lot of it's bound by IP law so you know if game assets are copyrighted then how do you make fkart around games and not wind up getting sued and those kind of issues I have to shake out as it becomes a legitimized art form do you think that uh you know every day mom and pop businesses will find their way into the games of the future Tyler so I think one of the uh the least

explored areas within the video game industry right now is uh user created content and I think you're going to see a lot of user created content start to be included in video games uh particularly I didn't talk about this in my talk because it's not the very first part of the movement but free my vunk is going to be enabling by by by having an asset registry on ethereum and then characterizing those assets through a file on ipfs that's linked to the registry people can start producing video game content themselves and essentially act as consultants or some sort some sort of service that uh video game companies could actually go out and

Outsource some of the content that they they normally create in house um and so people can actually start making uh mom and pop businesses uh single individuals who just know how to use um 3D visualization and know how to create really cool objects and Empower them with certain features that video game developers find attractive so I think I think that's really the kind of The Next Step that we could go to um after we get video game developers on board is that they can start recruiting us small organizations to to create the content for them so what about development um you know if uh the gaming of the future is

going to change then obviously the development patterns are going to change and of course this is a developer conference many people are probably thinking about this topic um and I guess uh maybe maybe juliean I can start with you uh you know how do you see how do you see things changing for developers uh you know in terms of the way development could be decentralized in terms of the way Revenue shares and things like that can can happen you have some thoughts about that yeah I I mean this uh this technology lets you uh kind of modularize the the process of building games in a way um where you can possibly have uh different gaming shops collectively uh contributing to a single game uh earning Revenue that way um also

I guess on as an extension of the development process you can have uh users generate levels for games um and earn Revenue that way uh tons of tons of different potential um use cases different revenue of different revenue streams but um yeah Peter what about you what do you think yeah um I mean so gaming right now is this incredibly one to many model right like you you're developing a game you do it by sitting in your apartment by yourself or with a small team or possibly a large team if you're a AAA company uh and then after years and years of creation you release the game and then people play

pay a F flat fee or they pay a monthly fee and they get to play the game and that works that's a like legitimate model for gaming but a lot of the most interesting content in games over the past 10 20 years especially uh has come out of user generated uh things in a wide variety of ways so MMO pgs are incredibly popular and one of the reasons they're so popular is because of the sense of scope you get from all the other players and because of the complex interactions you can have with other players um some of them like Eve online is a game that is incredibly boring uh for its own sake but the reason it is has such a devoted following is because it gives players the tools to really make social

connections and come up with social schemes to get their way in the game and it really gives the players tools to make each each other miserable there consequences right and so when like the the value of Eve is not primarily uh derived from the game mechanics is primarily derived from the community I think that's a general pattern that we're seeing more and more of and so I think it's very I think that uh blockchains by giving us a way to do uh you know peer-to-peer relationships that uh we can trust and that we can rely on uh just open up a whole whole range of possibilities uh in that

world uh so Julian I'd like to ask you a little bit more about I I think it's it's ether poker that you're working on at consensus um and and one of the the interesting things you told me uh just now was that uh you guys are kind of trying to take away you know I guess you're you're sort of thinking of this as like a you know an infrastructure for this as a service that someone else can subscribe to so they don't necessarily have to deal with the cards or the money and they being the people that want to set up a poker site or or something like that can you you talk a little bit about how that might work or how that does work yeah yeah so the the online poker Market is uh in in a very weird place where you have a lot of uh parts of the

world it is perfectly legal to play online poker but it is uh against the law to host a poker site so what this creates is a situation where you have a lot of players on uh sites that are outside of their legal jurisdiction um that's a huge problem if they have to trust uh holding a large amount of money on these sites they have to trust that that site is going to properly Shuffle their deck give them the right cards they're not going to have Rogue employees looking at their cards massive issues so the the idea of providing infrastructure as a service for that industry is basically um giving open source tools that connects uh these various sites to One Network in which the players are encrypting their cards on their local machines uh their

their money is held in escrow by ethereum smart contracts um and you're taking away that all of the trust uh friction that's making it difficult for any of these sites to get users and uh you you're basically giving them an easy way to bootstrap uh the tricky thing with infrastructures a service if your code is completely open source is somebody can just copy it and use it for themselves and not pay you anything uh the the way that we're getting around that is by uh connecting these uh various sites into one network where the uh two sites could have players uh play at a table against each other and each of the sites will uh collect revenue for it um by pulling the players you create somewhat of an incentive for them all to

use your software and in that uh in that moment where they are creating a table that is part of that Network that's where you can uh still collect a fee even though it is open source do you do you consider this really this to be fundamentally about censorship resistance just to get not to get too political but yeah uh I mean I really it I think it's great that almost none of the projects that I've seen so far are focused on that I think that as a a brand ethereum is best off avoiding that especially while in its like nent stage um what we're building isn't to try to get around the law it's to make it so that consumers are protected from fraud with these sites that they have no way of uh you know getting their money back

if if if uh if they lose if the site is operating on you know a fractional reserve of player deposits which has happened with hundreds of millions of dollars with full bu um you know situations like that uh definitely I think create the uh use case for this infrastructure without needing to um necessarily be uh helping you get around the law so V you gave me uh an interesting term uh while we were staying in the hall talking about this which was generative complexity and uh I think I just want to kind of let you wax on that for a moment because it parlays into something I want to talk about later well I mean this is

the whole thing about you know the most interesting thing about a game of any scale isn't the game mechanics or the rules it's the action of the other players and so far the only kind of widely used mode of Engagement for that is p versus P but actually there's a much more interesting mode which is kind of Minecraft style collaborative building and my guess is that creation of like large complex systems based collaborative worlds that have economies and ecologies will turn out to be like a core medium of the 21st century and I think you'll see this a lot when you get this interface between the new VR systems and blockchains for persistent property that what you'll get is these kind of you know like fake civilizations running inside of this one um in which

the predominant complexities from player interaction building social structures building cities building Maps you know Opening space Lanes whatever happens to be you know genetically reading their new works but that these things are then you know uh like shared narrative like the way that cultures have myths that are retold and kind of fractalized so what what happens when the next thing that has the cultural impact of Star Trek is actually a game with a quarter of a million players this kind of thing and I think Warcraft is close to that but there's such limited opportunity for player interaction that it doesn't get over that hump into the thing where the players are the story and the story is Players we're going to have to solve the The Grieving problem though grieving is

I mean that grieving is like one of the biggest reasons why it's really difficult to create these complex structures it's cuz people are just destroying them well that's a game mechanic right there isn't it the the defense of your complex structures against you know uh player generated Orcs you know actually I think in the current moment a lot of the most interesting stories we're generating that way come from incredibly large scale griefing there are some uh blog post about ion line uh guilds that were taken down by years of sabotage and all that sort of thing and like as long as as long as the game design makes that fun that can be the thing that generates the myth uh it's just a matter of designing games well I have a particular favorite Warcraft video which was a

bunch of people raing a funeral and it's one of the funniest things I've ever seen it's horrendous but it's hilarious so do you think that there in in some of that stuff that you just said there's something that I've been thinking about a lot as well is um you know as as we spend more and more time in these kind of environments you think that uh you know because inevitably some of this technology will be used on both sides on in the gaming world and in our you know Flesh and Blood world as it were uh do you think that there are things that will be portable in between those environments and I guess I can start with you because you probably thought a lot about this uh absolutely I I think you're going to see a real blending of the gaming environment to the corporate environment to the home

environment um and you're going to be able to utilize Tools in uh in a virtual experience between all of those those facets um you know I do think we'll solve kind of The Grieving problem in certain platforms but uh but right now um I I work for a major corporation and uh when we have meetings there's a communication loss just because there's no body language and there's no uh you know in a lot of ways uh teleconferences just teleconferences are worse but virtual conferences are better but they still don't satisfy the need need that we have to actually sit down with somebody and and talk person to person and I think that the gaming environment is going to evolve to that point where

we're going to be using virtual environments uh both at business home and for entertainment and the rules the rules of those environments the the contracts as it were um do you see those as being portable as well in the sense that we could basically I know I've thought about this idea that you know perhaps a game or a virtual environment might prototype certain types of you know societal governance structures and things like that and then it might be possible in that simulation to Port them over and V maybe you want to one you guys want to jump in on that well I just want to say that there's a thing called Norwegian is it Norwegian LARP Scandinavian LARP Nordic LARP that's the phrase I'm looking for where they have these very very hard-hitting lar games and there's quite a lot of bleed over

where people take behaviors they learned in the game like you know you have a spaceship game that has like 25 people locked in a tiny room and 6 months later you discover that 14 of the play ERS are still renting a single tiny apartment in Oslo uh because they learned a set of protocols for sharing the space over a 3D game and then thought why don't we do that in the real world and I think that that kind of bleed over is going to become more and more intense as games become like prototyping um I think in particular there's a horrendous or hilarious um bleed over from do startups from dungeons of dragons right where you basically have you know system administrator sales guy you know designer programmer are ESS character classes and people that were kind of

conceptually trained on D and D viewed the entire thing as finding a roving party of Adventures and going off and raiding Capital Dungeons and right same thing with Warcraft right Warcraft prototyped this style of you know for person teams engaged in Mass collaboration which is essentially consensus right each generation prototypes ways of living through their games and then those skills go directly into business so if we if we design games that have the right kind of complexity I think that that could be an enormous empowerment for culture later on but who's going to design the games how do how do we bring the best models into the games that the kids are playing so that when they're adults they can basically just go out and change the

world I I oh yeah uh sorry I didn't want to be rude and talk out of turn but uh I this is something I thought about a lot I think it's really important I I so I completely agree that uh we can use games to prototype economic systems but I think it's also worth considering that the distinction between a game and the rest of the world is has always been blurry and is becoming increasingly so um so there's an entire genre of games called alternate reality games where the characters uh call you on the telephone and like interact in your daily world and the uh and there's a great short story by Carl Schroeder it's called to hide from far selenia and in this short story uh there's one of these alternate reality games where people play characters who

are essentially a Victorian Aristocrats uh sorry I'll this will be quick uh but they uh in this game they're socializing they're uh you know uh politicking and at a certain point they go to a restaurant in order to continue politic and continue socializing and uh the restaurant is in the game uh but it also is in the real world so they go to this location and it's this popup tent uh and there's food being served and they go in and they come and serve them the food and the food's really good they eat the food and at the end they get the bill and the bill is in the credits from the game instead of real world dollars and one of the players says wait like don't I need to pay you in real money and the

server says no you you you pay us we only take this currency and I say but where do you get the money to run the restaurant you're paying us but like where does the food come from Farmers we pay them and the the like thing that the character has to realize in this story is that they never have to go back to the real economy because they're creating all of the value inside the game economy and I think that that bleed over becomes more and more possible as these uh systems get bigger and as uh the uh you know blockchain empowers a things that wouldn't have been possible for do do you think this is what happens to labor in the face of of mass automation like that basically we all

move into these kind of spaces I mean just I mean the economy is already a social construct right like we have chosen a particular way way to give our resources out uh and as the system that we've built becomes less and less relevant as uh technology makes things increasingly obsolete then I think we'll experiment with other systems and those systems might be games because games are fun Tyler do you want to say yeah yeah I was just going to mention you know this is a little bit pie in the sky that we're talking about but but we're we have to we have to like say that we've already made a significant step right here that uh we can create complex uh financial and legal contracts now that can exist in Virtual space um which is

just a huge step forward to enabling the types of things that we're talking about right now so uh I want to jump into one one more thing about uh I mean I guess actually we could we should take a step back in a way because you're right you know we're kind of stepping into science fiction territory which well maybe it's not science fiction but it's uh it's probably you know it's road yeah indeed indeed uh but let's talk about something a little bit more a little bit more right now accessible and practical so uh Peter you had also talked about this idea of uh different things that can go on in sort of the the game streaming World which has obviously become quite huge in the last few years you want to talk a little bit about that yeah so um so Twitch TV is a huge company um

that the only thing they do is they allow people to watch other people play video games and this is becoming this whole new cultural phenomenon um that is really influencing the internet internet um the way people live their lives and a lot of and a lot of these streamers are professional in fact the majority of them are professional uh they make their money off of AD Revenue they make their money off of subscriptions they make their money off of donations and the relationship between a streamer and Their audience is becoming increasingly complex uh so here's my favorite example so there's a game called Mario maker and Mario Mario maker is just a Mario game you run around and jump on platforms uh but all the levels are created by users and they get uploaded to nint Nintendo servers and then you download them um and they're

like game modes where you get 20 random levels in a row and all that sort of thing and what's happening is that viewers are starting to offer challenges to the streamers so they say I want you to play a 100 Mario challenge I want you to have at least 50 lives left at the end and I want you to only play Japanese levels um and if you do that successfully then I'll give you $100 um and there are major streamers who have like taken this as a major part of their streaming is that they do this but it's all it's all honor based it's all uh through PayPal you know there's big fees it's slow it you know when we've got games on the blockchain when these levels are created uh you know referenced on the blockchain uh when the creation of a new challenge uh can just

be a smart contract then you get the ability to have these relationships between streamers and Their audience become uh you know have all the advantages that having something on the blockchain has so what what extent experiment in the space right now actually comes closest to this uh so I've uh thank you for the leading question uh I built a uh uh at a hackathon recently at the black apps hackathon I built something called ether crawler uh with two of my colleagues Tim and Eva and it's uh it's a fully functional Rogue likee game uh very simple but you move around attack Monsters uh but the cool thing about it is that uh you can create uh level like all the levels are user generated in the

same way as Mario maker and then you uh set challenges for each other so you basically make a bet with someone I don't think you can beat these six levels in a row and then the money raised through that uh like a a 1% fees is taken off the top and that 1% is automatically split between all of the people who created the levels involved in that challenge and so um and in our particular example we also run all the game logic on the Block chain cuz that was cool for hackathon I think in real life a lot of the time the game would be off blockchain it would just be the levels and the challenges that would be on blockchain uh but either way uh you get sort of this uh blockchain eyes Challenge and you get

this blockchain CH chain uh Revenue sharing and I think that's a really powerful model so that uh the code's up on GitHub uh ether crawler uh Julian how do you think we get people to to get interested in this stuff to to use to use this stuff to think about this in the the core process when they're actually thinking about building a game how do we how do we make them see that this is well you know how do we convince them this is actually a really important piece this is something that they'll be missing out on I mean I I think uh I think games like Dow Wars actually help with that getting people to experiment with um with blockchains uh and fool around see what they're capable of um I think a lot of the a lot of the time it's going to come uh from

uh like Tyler was talking about earlier targeting uh smaller um Dev shops that are trying to break in with something and they in in the case of in the case of Poker it's they need to get users to trust them in the in the case of uh vunk it's it's it's getting users to have something uh new that they don't have with other um other games and uh I think yeah like targeting the targeting the smaller developers is the way to go with that so uh the of course you guys heard Tyler talk about uh cross game items and bunk and all the interesting stuff that's going on there um but I think this is this is an interesting topic because it it may be something that's quite contentious among game developers in other words the idea that you know

perhaps items can free flow between uh different titles and things like that so Tyler I wanted you to maybe start this off and give us some thoughts about uh you know the conversations and issues that you've had uh communicating this to game developers and what people might say in the future because traditionally of course in these worlds they've been able to control you know the game developers control nearly nearly everything if not everything uh besides player actions so uh yeah so we we've had uh several interactions with uh different entities um we we don't formally launch by the way until January 1st so there's some announcements I can't I can't make um but hopefully we can we can add upon that now that you guys know what we're doing um so uh there is mixed reaction

uh I would say that the the smaller shops are very very excited by the possib abilities uh there was actually an experiment done by a larger shop though um in Diablo I they had something called the auction house where they allowed people to actually uh withdraw real money real you know Fiat money uh based on sales that they would make in in the auction house and it got a little out of control to be honest um there's various rumors for why uh they had to shut it down um and I won't speculate on those but blizzard eventually decided that they they they couldn't maintain uh the auction house it was it was not in their best interest at the time uh but

they said it was a very valuable experiment for them and it really proved uh the value of vunk in in in a really meaningful way um so the the idea that you could actually trade crossplatform when you were done with a game might seem a little bit scary at first to a game developer because they understand that they have uh an appreciation curve and then a depreciation curve to their game um but anyone who really understands that understands that you you never keep a player forever um and the short-term gains that you would uh you'd be able to obtain by not allowing players to uh trade their

vunk with someone else uh is is not it's not enough because when you can monetize an asset you're willing to invest more I would be willing to spend a lot more in a game that I like if I knew that I could change to another game later and I don't have to go from being a king in this game to a popper in the next game um but regardless I I don't think I know a single gamer who plays only one game we all switch games become outdated we start to play new games um and that's just part of the depreciation cycle of of technology so uh in the end I don't think that there's going to be any uh

reason for game developers not to adopt this technology because it's going to be in their best interest to do so in terms of overall investment though of course that does change sort of how they have to think about games from a from a design perspective yeah I mean the design of the game is going to change somewhat when you realize that these people are going to be actively trying to monetize what they're doing in the game so game developers are going to have to take different strategies on how to approach their user base um simply because it's changed V you have any thoughts about this well I mean if we go all the way down this path and we erase the line between games and work and you wind up with huge Capital assets that exist only

in a game world or as reputation in a game so imagine a slightly different history where Dungeons and Dragons had professionalized and people played it on late night television and you had Dungeons and dragon stars which is essentially your Twitch thing right so you know to have your skill in the game be something that sustains you economically poker players in a lot of ways I feel like this is the mainstreaming of something which is already there and weird into a new normal that people will just accepted a generation is Perfectly Natural like you know of course you could take your status out of one myth into another myth in the same way that comic book characters don't disappear when they go from you know Iron Man to The Avengers uh B like kind of Michael moro's Eternal Champion Series where you

have this same guy that goes through a whole bunch of different genres and is always the same Jerry Cornelius I feel there's something it's almost like this stuff be becoming fully encased in myth and encapsulated in myth rather than sitting as this outgrowth of you know a board game they're taking on the kind of Mythic structures that characters have always had in fiction and and myth and storan you know Legend it all has this kind of persistent quality that things interweaving and this kind of soft way so I think games are growing up if that's what's going to happen next Julian you have any thoughts yeah uh not a ton to add but I actually think that um it's interesting uh kind of the the the way that uh

gamers are becoming kind of celebrities in Korea and everything I think that might be where we might start to see uh kind of people making their living not from being a professional gamer necessarily but just a hardcore gamer that kind of pays the bills with it um type of thing they might they might be more interested in uh the concept of uh of vunk and and and and other ways of making money with games and um that might be an interesting place to to watch Peter uh yeah I mean I think that uh all like I have trouble pinning down like a specific thing I'm excited about in this whole realm because I think games can just be everything right like it's it's

human interaction and human interaction is powerful and fun human interaction is especially powerful you know what uh one day digital wallets are going to replace bank accounts and those digital wallets are going to be full of vunk all right so we have uh about 10 minutes right left okay uh so does anybody have any questions for any of the panelists or generally speaking anything at all because we can keep talking what's that hold on we have we have one back here thank you so uh one of the things

that is that is on might been some people's mind is you know gaming on the blockchain seems like a very interesting space um at the moment there's potentially you know some things you can do already but some things are more like into the future what's sort of the technical and scalability concerns you're thinking about are the things that you've built that make things better maybe say you know um like State channels or things like that what are the the things you you keep in mind um anybody I've experimented with this yeah so the problem with games on the blockchain right now is this is that we have a 17sec block time and 17 seconds is a very long time in most styles of game and so I think there are

a few different ways around this one you can build styles of game where that isn't actually very long if it is a turn-based game in which a lot of thought is normal there are various games that where real world time has a big effect um and so you like send your ships out uh and it takes four hours for them to get somewhere and so the fact that you wait 17 seconds to order them to go doesn't really matter so that's one solution another solution is that you don't build the game itself on the blockchain you build structures around the game on the blockchain so uh this is basically how I think a real product uh that was based on The Ether crawler experiment would work you uh have a single player game that runs on your computer like normal and the thing that's blockchained is the level

creation saving it on uh in the cloud uh rating people's levels getting assigned levels that all can live on the blockchain and 17 seconds is fine for that uh the third option of course is uh something like uh payment channels lightning Network um if you have uh if the rules of the game allow for uh State transitions uh where you've got a a game State you take an action and that action plus the game State leads to a new uh State then you don't need to necessarily have the blockchain know about the entire history you can just have people agreeing back and forth in the same way as you do a payment Channel and only enforce the rules on a particular State transition if that particular State transition is

argued about um that still doesn't get you to real time but uh that helps uh yeah anyone else I actually have a comment challenges so one of the things that we're really challenged with uh at free vunk is the fact that we're trying to abstract away the blockchain a little bit for the average consumer um is is the costs of uh of lots of transactions um we're going to have to mitigate that in the beginning by being somewhat more centralized so that we can uh maintain digital wallets something like a coinbase where we move uh value around without actually uh publishing that to the blockchain only in chunks every so often uh because otherwise uh eating the

cost of trans of millions of transactions is is really really difficult um because the blockchain's not cheap so not really a question but just wondering thoughts of how VR like Oculus Rift um might plug into this blockchain world of the future yeah I can comment on that since since that's actually my thing um this is uh my company is visor we're we're doing actually something very similar to that it's a it's an open source uh web- based creation tool for for VR experiences uh

using the web VR API and uh I put a lot of thought into this kind of stuff and it's kind of why I led with some of these questions regarding like you know the you know governance issues how these things could work transparently uh Between Worlds and stuff like this um you know our initial our initial thought was probably to do something more along the lines of of vunk you know because there will be assets uh we'd like those to be decentralized uh we'd like people to be able to bring you know and and we're not we're not really a we're not a games company right we're making a games engine uh effectively and uh it's not so important that you know some strict rule hierarchy be followed but more that you know people are able to move stuff between uh you know different instances

of visor so that's something we've been thinking a lot about and we'll probably be doing next summer and then Additionally you know uh per the topic that I mentioned you know I'm totally fascinated by the idea that essentially we are going to be living more and more inside of these Virtual Worlds absolutely there's just like I don't know there's no question of me that that's going to be the case and I want personally to be able to know that uh you know what works there Works elsewhere and so those two topics which I you know somewhat mentioned here like those are kinds of the things that I think we'll be focusing on quite a bit um so there there's another effort like this I think it's called vilus um which I think KY Miner and some Argentinian guys are working on I I haven't actually tried it out yet but um

yeah I mean I think the the future of this stuff is quite obvious it's these these two things are going to be paired in really really interesting ways so if you have some thoughts about that please come talk to me afterwards I'm definitely interested in it any other questions okay make a we expansion oh you have a comment yeah so I think there are kind of four or five technologies that are all going to hybridize in completely insane ways in the next few years right so vrn AR blockchains weak AI uh robotics including drones and internet things I think are going to mash in you know each one of those is currently at the limit of investability and over the next few years those things will mature to the point where you can start seeing real investment in the interactions between them and what's

going to come out of that is an eruption you know what do you have when that you have a company that has all four of those Technologies integrated the product what is that even going to be like you know self-flying drones that use a blockchain to negotiate for airspace as they make package deliveries in people's you know AR games that's right that's right yeah totally I you can just sit down and play this as a game right where you basically sit down and try and imagine a product which is all four of those Technologies interacting inside of it and the things that come out are just science fiction in a can ab and that's the entire next 10 years it's going to just I can't even imagine it's our minds yeah it's actually I think this is the most fun intersection to possibly be working at

so you know just food for thought who else we're good okay time's up thanks guys appreciate it