Gabriel Jiménez: Petro – The Crypto Project That Tried to Free Venezuela #343

Transcript

this is epicenter episode 343 with guests Gabriel you Mena's hi welcome to epicenter my name is Sebastian Cuchillo today our guest is Gabriel Jimenez Gabriel is the creator of the petrol the venezuelan cryptocurrency so the petrol was created in late 2017 early 18 right around the ico boom and was a highly politicized venezuelan project to create a cryptocurrency that would be backed by

oil prices or oil reserves in Venezuela and Gabriel was approached by a Venezuelan government to create this cryptocurrency and he saw within that an opportunity to change his government to change his country from within of course it didn't quite play out that way because in the end the government clamp down on project or at least clamp down on him and took the project in their own hands and took it in their own direction but throughout all this Gabriel remained motivated and wanting to bring change to his country went until the very end and almost risked his

life to bring this project to fruition he is now living in the US where he was able to seek asylum and is working on other cryptocurrency projects with a goal to help the people of his country this episode is a little long goes for about an hour and a half in the beginning we spent a lot of time talking about the history of Venezuela and the political situations that led him to the point of creating a cryptocurrency for his country and towards the end we went into the sort of final moments when he has got to gonna sign the contract and sign everything over to the Venezuelan government and his held at gunpoint by military police but I'm not gonna spoil

it so I'll leave it there after the interview sunny and I talked for an extra 20 minutes to share our own thoughts about the interview and discuss what's happening in Venezuela now since the country is not in very good shape with oil prices being so low and we also spent quite a bit of time discussing the situation in the US right now which by all accounts is not very good if you want to hear that conversation you can do so by signing up to epicenter of premium episode and premium gives you a number of benefits one you get to hear these debriefs after the interview you'll also get access to some hosts roundtables that will release once in a while whenever there's something

important that we think we should share with you and talk about you'll also get access to some bonus content that we released from time to time when we go to conferences or and we record episodes about project updates and things like that so if you want to sign up for EPS and premium and support the show and get to hear all this great content you can do so at premium Epperson TV and now here's our interview with Gabriel UMS so we're here today with Gabrielle Jimenez and he is the creator of petrol but you know not actively working on the project anymore which we'll get into in today's episode and so I fell first met Gabrielle a couple months ago I hosted

this event in San Francisco called macro WTF and we've released a couple of the panels from that event as past episodes but Gabriel came and talked at that event and he had this like really amazing story and I knew we just had to have him on epicenter soon but we had to wait a little bit because there was a media bloc because of you know there's an article that came out in the New York Times and so we needed to wait for that to come out but that article just came out a couple weeks ago you should definitely go check it out but now that that's out we're glad to have every on the show so Gabriel thanks for coming on thank you and thank you for waiting and thank you for the invitation to the band like I was mentioning year before that changed my life a lot I was completely

destroyed on the press over there in Chicago waiting for my paperwork's for to be able to work and write that day before coming here is when I got my paperwork and well the table was set and was able to stay here and on the bay and I started working on the things that I'm passionate about so you're living in the Bay Area no yes in Oakland I was also a sub watching week I think I missed your talk but I was staying in Oakland and it's like a really neat kind of place I think I heard on the the Charlie Shrem podcast that you're working with reserves now I'm supporting reserve yeah as you know they are focusing on hyperinflationary countries Venezuela one of them the

reasons that I was working and creating projects in Venezuela related to take and related particularly to cryptocurrencies is because of the potential that because we we know cryptocurrencies had in in Venezuela and I think that very much Reserve has taken the risk to actually try to develop and focus on developing tools particularly for the Venezuelan context being a Bay are a company that they don't even had a Venezuelan under team and what they were focusing on the big problems at Venezuela had so I decided to support them basically because has been what I was working on and the potential of a

product like theirs they had with the Venezuelan people but I'm mostly focused right now on creating a project of my own that is a marketplace that is focused on providing jobs to Venezuelans it goes Bajans of what financial freedom that cryptocurrencies allows you to I'm trying to provide dignified jobs well create a tool that is able to match dignified jobs for the Venezuelan people so they don't have to be dependent of either tacoman or anyone that is subsidizing something in particular but that they can get are leaving on on their own so using the same fundamentals on technology and crypto payments in

order for them to receive their value of the work but also you know with their own work being able to afford the rent being able to afford their food their medicine that is something that is lacking on the Venezuelan economy nowadays so could we backtrack into how you got involved with all of this and like you grew up in Venezuela but you actually were from what I read you were living in the US and then you decided to move back to Venezuela in 2015 I think you talk a little bit about what inspired you to go back there and like try to start solving these sort of problems my college years back there in Venezuela I always was

very active politically was part of a generation over there in Venezuela that is the 2007 generation and we had many troubles and protests and things the Chavez back at the time I created a foundation trying to help to unite the people to create calm projects create projects that helps everyone that's when I was in college so my plan was to go to the u.s. I study prepare and go back to Venezuela because what I wanted to dedicate my life was to actually find solutions that affects your life as you know the whole price is that that is over there in my country when I went over here to the US I landed in Boston I was starting over there at

Harvard some specialization in negotiation and financial accounting and statistics my plan was to go back I didn't know when but I knew that I was here in the u.s. to prepare myself to learn to work and then to go back that's the reason while I'm here in the u.s. I started working after my specialization start working at the US Congress actually while in the US Congress and working for a congresswoman in Vienna that is a biggest district I mean it's the district that has the most Venezuelans in the u.s. so that's the reason that I decided to work with her with her back in 2014 I actually promoted and we seen her office the first sanctions to the

Venezuelan officials that were violating human rights that particularly oh the government kill over 100 people that is particularly John Venezuela's that were protesting once again in 2014 and in 2015 happen something unique on the Venezuelan modern history that for the first time since Chavez got power 1988 the opposition won an election for a public office of a major power that in this case is the legislature so it's the equivalent to US Congress for us is the National Assembly

I actually was renewing my visa in Mexico back at the time but when I saw that the opposition one I thought as you know many Venezuelans and me hope was over there for change room for the first time the Congress had a lot of power for a part besides the power that Congress held it was the Venezuelan people that wanted something different I didn't knew who the political conflict will end up and happening but the matter of fact that the Venezuelan people wanted change it was a clear sign for me that it was a moment to go and support and that movement of change I didn't have any plan I actually went back to Miami and stole everything that I had I

was married at the time my wife support me because since the beginning I told her that was the plan and don't wait as crazy people we stole everything we had in Miami I closed my office over there and went back to Venezuela without even a plan I just knew that I wanted to promote to change that wasn't kovaydin on the Venezuelan society what I realized that many of my friends from my generation of 2007 they were clearly into politics and there were many brilliant people into politics and fighting from the public offices and for all the the political battles that are needed and particularly in such a

complex and corrupt country as our but what I learned here in the US was a big countries are made by big societies by strong entrepreneurial by innovators that are able to know to escape that political conflict and to actually build and challenge what is actually thought as a sony possible so I thought hey with everything that I have learned and with so many people already fighting on the political side I had already a dieter marketing company and I thought I could turn it into a tech incubator and actually run in creating

new projects and tech projects I call actually brain solutions to the Venezuelan society and of course access the company but building solutions for the Venezuelan society so that was my thought and that was the reason that I went back what was it like growing up in Venezuela you know pre Chavez before he came into power in the 90s like give us a sense of what can change the country went through in you know 20 years so my thought when Chavez came to power I was 8 years old so the majority of my experience from before Chavez Acosta power is you know for investigation and for my area memory is that I was just just a little child

however the night is and the late eighties were a moment of the mines an economic crisis in Venezuela at tons of corruptions already happening in the country and a lot of division and a sentiment of anti-establishment was within our society actually Chavez tried to make a coupe on the early nineties and he becomes widely popular for trying to make a coupe to a democratic elected president which is crazy that people is supporting you know a military coupe that is going against the Constitution but the people was tired of their politicians was tired of the corruption

and was tired of hold economy was being handled so after Chavez is released and Chavez is actually released because then the Burnet president after the one that Chavez tried to do the coop releasing because he was so popular and he wanted to gain like public favor realism and Chavez was this ant establishment figure he wasn't from the two traditional political parties in Venezuela that they were array and copy it's very much here in the US that Democrats and Republicans so he was a complete outsider claiming to the Venezuelan society to reform the state to eliminate and crush corruption that a new system is needed that is by

the people on for the people and if you hear his pitches and back in 1996 and 1997 1998 the Chavez that you see it's basically comparable to the speeches of over Bana I'm not lying on this so if you hear his speeches and you say well that's the reason you know many people liked it you know he was a very charismatic person and what he was saying was directly connected to the heart of the people and because of the sentiment that the Venezuelan society had they overlooked the authoritarian characteristics that he had because a futures before he tried

to make you so he was no saint under him but Chavez was a widely popular in figure Venezuela was in the means of the biggest crisis - back at the time also because of the oil barrel the price of the oil barrel was declining when Chavez gotcha power is not connected but it is something to intervention when Chavez got to power they all borrow price what Louis in $1.00 per oil barrel - does the lowest that it has been and Venezuela that was dependent almost 70% of the contra revenue was because of they all was bird opinion of the oil price so all of this connected to you know a sense

that he's not that the country was pushing her west good know the country was very bad and these were the symptoms the sickness basically was what Chavez Y Chavez is is the result of the symptoms that the society had but there is a change when I was in my late teens early 20s around 2003 2004 I was following the situation in Venezuela very closely and myself and a friend had decided to invest in a Canadian gold mining company that was meant to mine gold in Venezuela Chris Alex yes exactly so we were young and I even thought hey like we're gonna

do invest in this company that is going to mine in Israel of course as you know knowing this company that didn't work out but what we were really inspired in our young kind of ideals at the time I think is that Chavez embodied a character that was going to free the people right like he was a man of the people and he was going to liberate the poor Venezuelans the uneducated he was going to liberate those people and give them what they deserved which was you know the money and the profits from Venezuela and resources and then he was against and he was an agent of change and he was against these situations that

were robbing the Venezuelan people and there was almost like this divide that you talk about from our perspective there seemed to be like divide between the working class and rich or educated class and I didn't get this and I didn't get the authoritarianism aspect until I moved to France and met Venezuelans like actual Venezuelans you know people like you who left the country and they're like no Chavez is a monster that's like what are you talking about this is a man who's gonna like free the Venezuelan people I think it's very relevant today especially like with you know Trump and everything that these anti-establishment platform that Trump ran on is kind of very similar to that

of Chavez alright maybe Trump is not you know like a working-class person but it appeals to a certain demographic I think and that's what makes it so interesting and appealing I agree and to be honest Trump is more like latest jeers Chavez on every year Chavez and I would put you this example Chavez got a coupe on 2002 and his opera coupe he did and the revolution will not be televised it such a great documentary yeah exactly the third day he came back to power he was brought out by the people he come back to power you know the biggest for private TV channels were the ones organizing partly organizers of

the cube like many of them in each area of the top commanders military were part of the cube and he is brought back to power he goes out that night on the balcony on the or equivalent to the White House that is miraflores and we have a bike on in that is named the balcony of the people he comes out with you know thousands and thousands of people cheering Jesus in his name because he just got back to power right after being in jail he comes back and the people that were supportive which others were man they were enraged because somebody tried to take their hero well the u.s. tried to take their hero or I mean this was the us-backed coup was it not the USA that they were backing the coop is everyone to judge

but they supported the new government once at the new government came to power what is interesting that was the government that came to power for for the coup and this mean Gorman actually eliminated the Constitution eliminated all the laws at Chavez indeed eliminated the Supreme Court and was chasing the supporter of Chavez and they were throwing out Gao and and punching them it was a witch-hunt of what was happening there and just to refer you whole different or Hodes Chavez character whole different ways and whole change over time for several reasons he came to the balcony of the people and he says that as to all his supporters to go back home in peace when his supporters were like looking for work he was

calling for the whole country a reconciliation he was unknown for the people that criticize him and that he would to change their mind but even if he can't he will be his president and you know is like calling for a reconciliation of the country after suffering such Haiku this is just something that you don't expect out of that and I'm not saying that he was in authoritarian and he had some very bad miracle terrific but that was the figure of Chavez in the front of the eyes of many people and what is interesting besides all of the corruption and the characteristics that the government of

Chavez was built on that was this auto training' populistic figure of Chavez the one that make all the rules after 2005 in 2005 the opposition decided to note to don't go to general elections for the Venezuelan Congress at the time and they gave 100% of the Congress to Chavez and they decided to don't go because they say that the elections were trick and it was going to be you know they were going to illegitimate Chavez if they didn't go to the election the reality of what happened is that Chavez got control of 100% of Congress so you can imagine what

will happen here if the US Congress is 100% controlled by Donald Trump and 20% reward that that is such dangerous thing to actually happen what happened with the full control of the venezuelan congress he got the full control of the Supreme Court he got the full control of every major office and he became kind of a monarch because the whole structure was already Center on the figure of Chavez and now every government body was completely controlled by Chavez because the opposition didn't participate in that election so that is sickening of what he actually right after that he has so much power he throws it away that was

the biggest private TV channel back at the time he star expropriating different media's and start you know crushing political leaders and putting him into jail he becomes a person that was an evil untouchable person that nobody could defy him because there was no balance and on contrast just for example in contrast in 2002 the coupe that he received actually the Supreme Court say that there was no coupe the Chavez had no coup that there was back and see of power because Chavez wasn't there that was what the Supreme Court say and actually the the same Supreme Court like one year after sanction Chavez for

something that he said on TV so there was balance of power very similar to what is here in the US but we gave him like the red carpet to be [ __ ] can be as authoritarian as you want because we are not going to fight our democratic institution so just the opposition had also responsibility on that alone - I know - retiring guy but many people are very new to have such kind of power and such a big pocket that he had because not only in his term they all went from $8 per bar but it went all the way up until 147 dollars per barrel and besides that increased honor all revenue he increased the debt

of the country by 60 times so you can imagine and this whole context that is happening and then when he is going to Cuba to treat his cancer he knows that he is very sick and he sits in a table and next to him is Maduro that you know material was like somebody on the political sphere but wasn't like a popular political sphere or many people thought that was going to be this battle that was like the right hand of Chavez for so many years and he sits over there and he tells to his supporters point the currency crisis hasn't happened yet that

it hasn't happened there was still 17 25 35 cheering inflation capital controls were actually established in 2002 in the capital controls and the Capitals controls over time were more straight at the beginning were more light but there wasn't a crisis but because we had so much oil money coming basically Venezuelans were kind of like living on a borrowed life just to told you this this example a painter Latin America is of working class job that he paints houses he would be able with you know his money and his salary to go on

vacation to Madrid and then he comes back to Venezuela with more money because basically was subsidized everything and they give you money in order to go and then when he comes back he buys a taxi and he established a new taxi so that was you know the kind of crazy living that we have particularly on the meeting to thousands like from 2005 up until 2010 we had that even - we had inflation and everything bodies it's also because of of the amount of revenue that we were having coming from the oil sector and so when did the current did it sort of correlate with the crashing oil prices that happened a couple of

years ago not only that but that is the reason that I was referring home at throat its power when Maduro ggest power Chavez asked to his supporters that if he is sick if he dies for any reason something happens to him he asked them and ordered them to board a strictly for module and he gave a blade to Maduro in that moment so he was like almost a foreign power to my into Maduro and this mythical figure that has been created that is unbeatable electorally with tons of money so cars marry with cubes and everything and this mystical

people turn his supporters to vote for Chavez then in March 2013 Chavez died and in 30 days are the elections the elections at madrasah is a candidate so basically whole country was a steer in a duel and he comes to power but module he has no actual leverage and has no actually support from the Venezuelan society from the different he's not as charismatic as Chavez it wasn't as charismatic but also he was like his Chavez is the reason that he got into power it was very hard for him to change his policies on every aspect so anything that Chavez said was basically like a Bible for him to follow because he couldn't defy his predecessor

because his predecessor was the one that made him president basically his power comes from Chavez's legacy basically and so he can't defy Chavez's legacy exactly so not only that the price of the oil barrel collapse that has nothing to do with material coming to power but you know the whole debt that the country has created the whole corruption scheme that has created the whole know investing that morning or 7:00 and morning 400 times or for being more productive the collapse of the private companies because X preparing them and going against them because it was very easy for us to import everything of them is happening slowly we cannot get more debt and they all revenue collapse and at the

same time Maduro cannot changed the economic policies that were designed for a hundred and forty seven dollars per roll bar and with that amount of debt and with that amount of support so internally the Venezuelan regime had you know like so many directions Maduro didn't control politically the party as as Chavez did because there were so many different ways and he found himself trapped in some way politically speaking because he he removed one of the main policies of Chavez he could have you know somebody from his party to actually control him or to actually don't care about what he was saying so he had the option to actually do it but

politically speaking was very hard for him to do it which because we didn't took the actions that were necessary over the following years to 13 2014 particularly stunning doesn't for team inflation start to to grow as the whole system is collapsing 2015 who is the price controls there is a scarcity of food and medicine of toilet paper under scarcity because of the price controls were pegged to an official dollar that was basically non-existent because the komen was in giving you official dollars and the people wasn't able to get them legally on the market I mean talking about this

legally because the legal aspects are important on a real economy because we put something on the crypto we always like you know you know Bitcoin isn't sensible it's you know completely free what your reality is that when you think in a real mass adoption when you're thinking millions of people on the financial institutions and on the corporations that make the inputs into a country you need to think that they need to comply and they need to comply not particularly with Colombia with us they need to comply with law where they're registered because they are over their register in Venezuela and somebody will

go to children complain which should down your business partners or thousands of jobs will be lost and they're on the whole investment of anyone could be lost and if you're importing into Venezuela your tariffs are denominated in bolivars and is everything is to nominate their taxes are in that and so that sort of create a system where even if this currency is inflating like crazy it still makes everyone tied to it you still need to have it in order to pay your taxes and everything so at the end of 2015 there was a hyperinflation was starting ticking and the scarcity what in his top expression and that's like one of the reasons that the opposition

warned by a landslide and their elections in December 2015 I'm in token that they won 113 deputies 186 or something like that and forgot the complete the total number but it was more than two-thirds of the Congress which allowed the opposition basically to do whatever they wanted but firmly let go the government tried to fight back they named as a new Supreme Court and that Supreme Court said that the people from the National Assembly two deputies were invalid so they didn't have the supreme the two-thirds of the I

mean there was a political conflict happening between a regime that is has so third turn in and is corrupted and they are trying to hold on power and there is this opposition that wants to get rid of that gorman as soon as possible and as fast as possible because that's what the opposition sees as a solution that we all agree we all agree that the solution is you know we're moving my druva from power and having a new government but the reality that we need to face is that we cannot have a country divided we cannot govern a country or enter or trying to claim the power we serve many of the people that that are over there and that mistaken

that conflict elevated the political battle and created a whole political crisis once again so yeah I mean I'm sure we can you know we could talk for hours and hours about like you know the political crisis that's happened but let's sort of focus in on sort of now how was your calling of how you thought to solve the problem and so tell us a little bit about why you thought cryptocurrency was a solution to the problem and were was cryptocurrency something that was already happening in Venezuela by the time you got there or was it still not were people using it by that time or not and how if so

the time to tell your at last question she can basically check Google Trends and see the keywords of Bitcoin or blood chain or crypto in Mestalla before December 2017 and it's basically a small group of people in but that is not even recorded on on the Google Trends like the actual numbers and on a whole whole March it was searched the reason there was a reason for for that even by having the you know the cheapest electricity of the world as you know the reason is that

we because we had capital control many government officials were actually taking advantage of the lack of regulation and were blackmailing people that either our crypto mine crypto over work with crypto and they were blackmailing them accusing them of you know random roles that weren't directly connected but it's like you're affecting the lateral create or you didn't import this with the permian or you are violating the capital controls many people thought because it is the common the common thing to to actually in a

corrupt system as ours and because of the capital controls that the industry was practically banned by the Venezuela regime I remember in October 2017 that I went to a conference in jerk I was making an ICO over there - Walla and people I was the only Venezuelan that come for a walk me and like 200 friends and I was like the curious person like people asking me about the inflation over the reminisce well and also asked me hey aren't you afraid that you are going to be detained or going to be in jail because the

using stories about the critical industry both externally and generally in Venezuela was about the regime is against the cryptocurrency which is partially not true and why is partially not true because as an entrepreneur when I did dive into into crypto on attaining deep dive as an entrepreneur with a company with more than 20 employees that I have to actually look for for the regulations before I decide to write run run code on myself or something like that again quote-unquote I'm not a coder I'm a lawyer that is a misinterpretation or on the

New York Times article that the formula like that but when I take on on the low I I realize and when I take on on the research I realized that the Venezuelan regime hasn't actually made a misstatement related to cryptocurrencies not the president not the vice president not the ministers they haven't actually mentioned war cryptocurrencies so it was impossible that the regime had a natural stance related to cryptocurrencies and what was happening was at a lower level that were basically cups and corruption corrode curves that is the most corrupt system of the world you can imagine that there are many corrupt people but that

was a political position and it wasn't politicized the opposition hasn't even talked about cryptocurrencies they are fighting on the context of elections are fine and the context of the Constitution on national assembly that the government is saying for political rights there are other fossils going on cryptocurrencies are not a flag on the position either so it's like a place that hasn't been held by any political party or political group in Venezuela and that is a very good opportunity to try to persuade anyone to make them understand that is is it's a path that will bring benefits to

the whole society and why do I see crypto as a solution and how do I see them as a solution well particularly I was involved in crypto since 2014 and Newton from from before but at a personal level since 2014 then when I arrived back to Venezuela that I arrived with my ex-wife she couldn't open a bank account because she was corner we fought all almost for a year to actually get her a bank account the bureaucracy in banking in Venezuela is incredible as it is everywhere yeah my employees earn in dollars I paid him in dollars back at

the time but I initially we were only three people and my company me and two other persons and the fair real quick but as we started to grow and we started to grow because we were working completely for our internal projects and baesell from outside and also offering service to times and size as we start to grow and we started to harm people out of just for example out of 16 yeah out of 16 and produced only one had a bank account I USD bank account which he was the one that I had to deposit to and then he made like small trades with friends for the people who when they

requested so that was very complex to actually pay my employees they had problems actually opening people's account because they needed validation the easiest way to pay them actually was true crypto it was way more easier to pay than sugar and chalk up the currency and over over time there were you know the problems with the limits of the debit cards and the limits of the credit cards and the problems with the cash because of hyperinflation if you see videos of whole hyperinflation behaves in 2016 17 is is crazy how it goes so cash became worthless the limits of the debit

card if you pay something on Friday night you couldn't pay true the next day because of the limit the credit cards limits were outdated so nobody is just credit cards over there and so everything you had to pay it to a white transfer you have to make a wild transfer for a pain even a cup or two pain for groceries it was completely crazy so if you go if you went to a liquor store or to a grocery store you will see like a line of computers where people will go and login into their bank account and make a white transfer to the to the bank or to the liquor store that that is whole things were working on

developing take Chaparrals I went sample with many developers and creative and you know my goal of finding solutions in Venezuela and we started working on a POS system that will be able to connect to the financial system in Venezuela and people would be able to pay try to through crypto and wall compared directly to bolivars play to the merchants in Bollywood so I started working on the project I actually started doing some tests with credit card we advanced in the prayer forum for

a few credit card was the biggest switch Venezuela that is the system that interconnects the different POS and banks and Chris and credit card they have like 86 percent of the market in Minnesota we start win test but because we are advancing on on this that's where I basically start to research on the legal context of what was happening on the industry and as more research that I that I do I find that because of what is happening on the industry that is basically being blackmailed by the corrupt cops we are not the in solutions they've been assertive

people are not developing solutions or the potential solutions that could be developed in Venezuela that are needed in Venezuela that Iran faces challenges here in the US aren't being done because it's not possible to actually implement them at scale so at the same time I realized okay this is not something that prolly I would be able to talk myself even true I really better me but this is something that goes way beyond is because there is this opportunity over here even if we are not able to develop this POS system we are going to basically eliminate the capital controls if cryptocurrencies are

allowed because you have the capital controls that prohibit you to actually exchange your boy words to two dollars that are not in an official way if out of the syringe you allow private money you basically allowed the access to the international market and you are at the same time allow to any project being developing cryptocurrency to be basically implemented so that that would be a game changer and that is when we start to work in our strategy to work and to go out of the shadows and instead of being hidden instead of you know writing articles or a more strategy was to go as public as possible we were a

company Venezuela the Wall Street Journal went to actually make a story about us because we're growing on the means of the cows that we had in Venezuela so we had certain authority over there as well and we decided let's use this and let's talk about crypto not about your price let's talk about hookey and cryptocurrencies could be a solution for payments whole cryptocurrencies could be a solution for saving her cryptocurrencies could be a solution for a Bourdon hyperinflation and on pitch inside we have to you have to understand that the Venezuelan regime we had to be cryptocurrencies had to be appealing for them and in order to be

appealing for them they had a big problem back at the time in 2016 2017 like it was their enemy basically that was a website named order today that is a website that shows the price of the black market of the dollar basically what the way that we portrayed or speech on conferences on the media has and news articles over there in Venezuela was that we script the currencies people wouldn't need the US dollar and because they wouldn't need the US dollar the the demand and the pressure on the dollar will decrease and the economy will alleviate on the black market

various is making that push and that is not being able to actually transact freely because it's subject because it's black market is subject to control so that's what the government got interested in and that's why they reached out to you that was my speech or vision in different times at the same time in order to not be I own we started to gather other entrepreneurs in Venezuela that were of the Cuban crypto industry back at the time and it happened something magic that nowadays is completely different and what happens in in many countries is completely different because we were all threatened to be in jail basically that was a danger an actual danger there was no discussion about etherion or Bitcoin or

- where we were all on the crypto entry and we were all out there speaking about the benefits of cryptocurrencies could having no control we gather also with basically created a community of entrepreneurs that were decided after like we went out many other people were also coming out with the projects and we created like a movement towards that because of that and because of the whole big crisis of what is happening maduro which whoa not the majority the central bank they realize that we are talking about

this solutions to many of the problems that they have and they wanted to know what was actually happening it was respected so they request me and other companies to make an explanation and cryptocurrencies are the central bank for a very small group a technical group then there were some directors of the central bank and the time what I find out on that meeting that was particularly interesting is that the central bank knew that they were creating inorganic money they were doing the bird systems and they knew the hyperinflation basically was created

back then so for example when we were explaining Bitcoin and so on and so on they were like hey no that's done Titus's of what we're doing so they were looking an ad like surprised and they very much view the mistakes a day in the head but because when many of them had years and years of a central bank what I realized over there is that even true the central bank knows the mistakes that are not publicly telling that they know that they are doing it wrong they are aware of the problems that they that they have and they're actually you know interested in possible solution there was one guy that show a video that they show a video of Chavez talking about the petrol and he was saying to create an

ICO of peda Basin and Pedro there were a bunch of directors over the reporter was no one with political power actually over there but when I see that video I realize on my head if this is actually pitch to the right people that is able to make decisions and everything follows follows and we portrayed that is Chavez the one that who you know created these policies that cannot be changed but Chavez is the one that is squaring this food that is changed the whole spectrum is Chaves itself the one that is going to change there and

they basically the legislation this will be the pitching that they would be able to internalize us okay we can if we do this we need to because we will do it for Chavez and we will fix all of these problems of the economy and will be an idea of Chavez if we if we apply it was that your idea or was that someone else whose idea was that to do that little mind trick that was my idea the same is that how I accidentally see that in the video on that Central Bank meeting and then because other people can contact me carlos marques can contact me because i

was in the media many people was from contacted me and when he told me that he can show a deck to the to the BP if I had a ploy and I mentioned well we can actually put this name and we can actually tell that in order to materialize Chavez idea we have to make cryptocurrencies legal we are gonna even make it for nonprofit I mean we are not going to charge a dollar or a believer in order to do it that would be a pitch that they were basically suggest and we made a small speech pitch deck of up about nine pages and we gave it to him we literally were focusing on our different projects still publicly speaking trying you know to have a positivist aiming different government

ready to into crypto and then after a conference in in Venezuela that Maduro so a bit combining machine and asked what was that and he was told that was the teacher of mourning that was blockchain and he asked hey is this a Chavez idea and Samaritan in the test he actually approved the project without actually understanding what cryptocurrencies or what bludgeon what it actually meant what do you think that is that he what do you think that he just accepted it just because it was a Chavez idea yes and not only because was a Chavez idea

but once the Chavez idea that will fix all the problems of the economy that he was actually facing so you had to program a hyperinflation you have them the problem of payment you have the problem of cash and you would basically not need the US dollar if you have a cryptocurrency that is freely tradable all over the world and this was like a sweet spot that is conceptualized by Charles I mean it's like wow that is amazing and they approve it we start actually really knowing about it and not it's something that I say with complete confidence and that's something that the

New York Times validated with interviewing people that were close and government officials at the were close to that but not even like internally approving it right like you know from the article what I got was like he went on national television and said we are doing this look how does it how does that happen like how does he like without even having an idea of what this is is go on national television and tell everyone this is the point we have the biggest always Airport of the world and like the between the second fifth depends of the of the studies call reserve of the war so many natural

resources only 30 million people and we have their worst economic crisis of the world so as you may guess about it the people handling the economy and making the decisions related to the economy having all of these resources and being you know on this big crisis when we were like a very good nation if they are terrible at making policy decisions are handling important topics and they are actually handled like that you can talk with many people that has work or has any to do anything to do with the Venezuelan regime what you will expect you know al known bureaucracy in many areas

when is you know the top person if he feels that that is the right way the prove it and they literally you know the three days I wasn't bowtie I changed my flight today to the next day and then I go back to to Venezuela they were asking me about what mining was if my name was equivalent to have a u.s. dollar account and create that if how many paid Rosa will be like what what was a blockchain like I've been talking with the vice-president the minister of science they need to renew anything anything related to cryptid I was like when in that first meeting is that I realized

they didn't actually understood what they just put so they launched this crypto they announced in you can like this video of Maduro announcing this on television and he's very sure of himself and he's very confident that this project will go through meanwhile in the background nobody knows anything nothing absolutely nothing the only one that had the project on his mind was me and they were calling me to ask me who was praying like when are we going to launch it how many papers are we going to be the whole is going to be mine a ball or not why is it not going to be Manimal when am I need to have dollars you know that were thought how is it trade so

these people need you're going to be able to get it like they had complete no understanding about this even that opportunity and given that lack of of knowledge of what I'm given the in Lawrence of well what was happening is when I realized this is a natural opportunity to create a blushing Explorer that actually oversees the government spending if we are able to to actually implement this crypto particularly the petrol besides the legalization of of cryptocurrencies we are going to be able to see how morning is moon we are going to be able to identify who is moving which morning from which gorman early and in a corrupt

system as as the venezuelan one that is incredible and this is not something that i if you see i actually on december 22nd of the of that year i made a speech at the central bank in Venezuela in front of the Davenant the economic company because they basically opened me the doors to everything I met with the president his private house in porta tuna that is the biggest military base of Caracas I had access to any Minister or any office today they were ordered to do whatever I demanded I go over all the government regulatory bodies and they they approve everything that I I was I

was saying because basically I had the blessing of the dictator because the dictator embodied that particularly on that December 22 that I went over there with the Americans that we were talking on the Central Bank and I'm talking to these people telling them hey we are going to fight corruption this is going to be transparent people is going to be able to audit expending this is what you're telling them this is what you were saying yes and not only saying but that's what we were building and that's what they were approving and that's what the legislation on the other side that I was great and why were they approving

this like you know why was the corrupt government sort of signing off on saying yeah we want more transparency into our corruption well in Venezuela basically it's because of the proper least I said so so on people didn't understood very well what tipped aware about Maduro said that we have to do it so because my rules say that we have to do it everyone was following on of course I knew from the beginning but that was going to be a very small window a very small we know that that you know ignorance was going to whom to remain for that reason I strategically placed to launch them the ICO by February 20

this is you know you have been involved in cryptid projects so basically we are like at 1% on December 3rd we haven't even conceptualized any white paper or anything you know we're an office that would pay $40 per month right at the time we have more than 50 people but we basically had cereal but I push it to put it on February because I wanted to implement it and to release it before they were able to hold it and to stop it that was my path basically they actually tried to stop the project and they start to open eyes the project and the one that was commanded basically all of that

was the Minister of Finance itself the one that was losing the grip and the power of the of Lacan imme because he wasn't even you know on the decision-making on this as you see module approving the project or anything afterward he wasn't on the table because this was something that were broke broke I was from Chavez and so on and was approved so by January they start going bringing they bring in a Russian team but they were scammers they declare me enemy of the state and they declare after who is this Russian team I read about this Russian team can you disclose who they were at the end of January when I was going to polish the white paper they tell me way before that

I have to eliminate the auto-ship and I have to eliminate the technological part of the white paper which basically will leave the white paper itself as a child and could be manipulated later on and at least the outer ship that it was a foundation will guarantee that we will deploy that day so after is signed by the president the white paper and publicly say that it was John Venezuelans I wondered did it I challenged the Minister of Finance and polish it the white paper with the outer shape with the authorship of that that we were or so to say because that way the next week we would put it the technological part because that was what

was promised to earn to us so it was like a guaranteed they don't steal the project that was ours so when I polish that they send me in the political police they declare me enemy of the state to me in the foundation and then they basically told me because the parade was of the foundation we were in owners of the project anymore so who declared you enemy of the state well it was the finance ministry that did it hey now they they the vice president today collects I mean so the vice president was on your side up until then so what what change no he wasn't on my side he was over there when you know was

approve and and then explain to him the basics and then saw him when I went to the to the house of Maduro and and for that you know but he he wasn't particularly on my side and actually the vice president palace is right in front of the Ministry of Finance so and as you can imagine they are like the two most corrupt people on the country so actually he declares me an enemy of the table because I challenge the Ministry of Finance so I the prayer wasn't ours anymore basically I knew that they will try to manipulate the project or to do something else

my shaadi was well they have the ICO in about four weeks they need me they wouldn't they will not find anyone else that is gonna be able to pull this paragraph in such a short time because they haven't done anything it's completely possible that they do it that was my thought at the at one week after that they call me and they tell me well I cannot be part of the project or either the foundation it has to be a Venezuelan company but we have to compete with another team that they are not going to tell us who they are so my sources internally from from the people of the superintendency told me that they

were Russians we some team members and we the only company of the different companies that integrated the foundation that suggests was myself to actually put his name on him and the reason that I did that it was because I didn't want the project to fall and to be not implemented but I already was involved into it and I didn't wanted to to fail and after the first night we go to a restaurant I was wearing dancers in the Minister of Finance and when we are dining on that restaurant there is a Russian team eating and celebrating and it was like 11 p.m. and it was very late already and it was weird to see like

foreign people in Venezuela doing that so we actually hate the thing this is the people we randomly asked them and they told us who they were that they were there for doing the pitch one we were like completely surprised because the pitch was a project we didn't have contract or any support the picture was recreation and prayin they were telling us that they were doing the petrol so they tell us their names and we decided to do a research about who they were and there was a model there was a java teacher there was a former fraudulent i'll friend that was sanctioned by the

US and the seamy and chicago for doing fraudulent transactions so the word basically completely people rounded people and you know with no actual background on what they weren't going to supposed to do and they were there celebrating that they were going to do the petrol you know the trade that I was wearing in order to fight this steam and that I announced that was great this transparency and so on and the legislation that was underlined is underlining so I create a we've and I presented myself I did I say that I didn't care that I wasn't an

amount of stay but I wasn't going to let this play die and I went to the Ministry of Finance to the superintendency and to the minister of science and I gave them a brief as saying that Jewish people were scammers those Russians were prowling they were traveling people and they were the worst cameras the team and that they were doing they didn't react they told me that I was jealous because there was a Russian team that was better than us and that's how they reacted which is which is completely completely nuts so I actually tried to fight that back

and they actually tell me that is actually ok the Russian team desisted these guys you are going to be the ones that are going to pull it off and finally it going to implement it and deploy it to Prague and so on they told us to to go to the vice president palace over there we give them the documentation while it's if we do it judgment into the into the websites and so on like for around 8 hours at that day up until 8 p.m. and then in that moment around 8 p.m. I write the Russians to the to the main room of the vice president silence that is the same

amore of a room that is where the minister is me on television and they're making decisions and so on and over there they arrive and they arrive with champagne bottles and they start doing champagne showers in front of the Venezuelan CEO and taking selfies and they sign the contract on the development of the project so right in front of our faces I was over there with an engineer from another company but that was working together with with us and it was unbelievable they they signed the contract that we were supposed to sign

and that we were signing it in a pro bono way and well then they they came and I told him hey what is happening and they don't wanna they are doing the petrol but but it's it's afraid you were not worried you're gonna still be able to sell it and I refused to actually I'm not going to sell something that I'm not doing because it's a fraud and that people is Pradhan I already told you that is problem from people they come out with a contract and that they were offering money and so on I refused to sign that and I told him I need to actually because I knew that I had that only moment to rescue the prey so after

there is a collapse on the website that my friend is able to mimic the website on national television and so on he comes back to where I was that I was negotiating with the main head of economics of the country at the vice president palace he comes the chief of staff of the vice president that actually was inducted two days ago by the US by the Department of Justice hos elite Ramirez and he come on screaming and ordering orb attention and ordering us that we are not living and if we try to communicate with a tear war we were

going to be sent to the scene he orders to make several other Corrections or he wanted and that we will only be free whenever he wanted if he wanted and he ordered the guards to come the military courts that protect the military Palace and they point us on and because we and they told us that we actually had to if we try to do anything we knew very well what what will happen so all of that happening in that moment so so the military police comes in and basically under the pressure being shot the threat of being shot you're told now okay you have to do what we do what we want yeah Canisius yes exactly exactly that

basically it was because I was denying myself to actually sign that document that they were offering and document that was basically saying that I was going to sell a project that was a fraud and that I was already telling them that was these people was a fraud and I won I wasn't going to be able to sell it did it occur to you at any point that this could happen that things could escalate I mean like you know you're dealing with gangsters basically I mean have you issues or extrapolate yourself from this story like you're effectively dealing with gangsters did it occur to you that it you know when you started working on this project in the beginning that at

any point your life might be in danger yes completely but this is the question that I paced journey myself there is a slim opportunity and a very slim opportunity to actually change something that we do you for many people that will eliminate the capital controls that could create something for more than twenty years nothing else has worked you have fought against it you have rallied you have protested you have work in the u.s. against it you came back to the country to actually with the hope of change those hopes have deflated there was a slim opportunity with you

mind not my hands but with my team on us to try to actually do something that will change the life of millions and we dream about it and we said just let's let's try it this was a big discussion team I lost a partner when we decided to actually try this but it was a risk that it worth for for the possibility of change because I mean I'm not the kind of person and I does reason that I'm here on the bay I'm not going to wait for the politicians to bring solutions for air forces they have failed us greatly in 20 years they have fed us greatly and I'm not a guy of Conn's I'm you know

I'm very skinny not even fight but I can try to put ideas out there and try to build a solution for problems that people is feigning and I'm not gonna stop either way even one while I was in Venezuela I'm not gonna be saying like many Venezuelan does I'm just gonna wait for the government to change to build something know people need now people need solutions now because that stupid government is affected them is creating this whole crisis and people is suffering right now right now so I'm not just gonna turn my eye to the other side and just say no this is this is

something that the Venezuelan government will need to be part of and no it's something that is completely for the people I will I will be the first one to actually try to help the people of of my country not gonna wait for anyone to leave because I even disappointed with the people of the opposition and with the leader of the Opposition of my country because they are with the worst government in history and on history of Venezuela that has created this economic crisis they haven't been able to overtake power you can also hope bad is her opposition are they gonna always play the victim oh no it's that the Venezuelan government is really bad is that they're terrorists yes we know they are we know that they're in clusters such as I knew

and I'm responsible also for all the criticism for the collateral damage that I caused for for the manipulation our west coast because of the parade because it tried to do something else that was completely completely different but but by my actions or by my ideas I created a trail that ended being used for manipulation of Lamanna certain people and that's something that that is a pain and that I don't every podcast every news every thing that I do every story for me there are always going to be Venezuelans saying you know that I was being paid that I stole billions or I paid you or you're doing a PR campaign

and I have to set up because it's completely understandable of people that have been apprised and repairs were for so many and I see a guy that you know the tool with whatever intention and that I had and has being used to manipulate and oppress people that is something that that I carry on myself but either way is not something that is going to stop me to keep trying and to keep building and even into my failures and my lessons I will try to run outside bring solutions to the society that's the reason that I'm I'm really happy that I landed here in the Bay Area thanks Tony for that invitation that really changed from that moment I

literally came with you know a backpack and my closest that I had on because you remember that we bought the ticket from one day to the other and then the other day was coming coming back and I was invited hey do you want to stay with us for a week and and hang and see what project you're trying to do or and we can help you out and you can buy sauce and we started to to collaborate like that and try and I've been trying to bring people together that that is looking to build for for the present and not for the future of Venezuela you know that makes a lot of sense like you know it was a risk but it was like the opportunity that you had and you have to

seize it when when it is there and so what what's the like current state of the project now so you know you managed to get out and now you have asylum in the US did the project ever actually launch who's running it now is it still ever going to be launched do you keep up with it in that sense well the project itself was kind of like held in a standby and then because they didn't want Prague to actually happen but they publicly already said that was going to be the pillar of economy so they try later on to pivot to project and something that they would be able to

control and something that they would be be able to do whatever they wanted but they they have failed to actually launch a portion of Paris related to to the petrol they have relaunching it several times and again people people like to say that is spread for money laundering or corruption or whatever but or avoiding sanctions or so on there are other cryptocurrencies that are much better fee and has an equality if the common ones actually to do anything of that and that they don't

need to ask permission to anyone because they are the law you know so so the project what ended up being used for is basically manipulation telling to the people hey yes we are going to pay you half of a petrol if you subscribe to this federal court yeah and that is a $30 according to their imaginary and and that's what they use it for and that has has been they in the way that they have been portly telling to the people and selling this idea to to the people every time with a petrol okay we're going to give you half of a petrol they send a half of a petrol to a port oh and people

then try to trade not even on a blockchain right there is but they have peed on it several times too so it's much mostly mostly an SQL database more than more than a blockchain they sometimes ability the blockchain is polar explorer they make like a clone of - the lastest development that they did but they they haven't actually deployed and implemented a public blockchain or anything closely similar to that do you think that there was a world in which

the petrol might have worked so like let's say let's say if it was backed by OPEC do you think that could have been the problem was that it was overly associated with Venezuela and I think part of like what led to the failure of it was the when the US sanctions came down on it and that like was the nail in the coffin for the project so how good things are gone differently in your mind that like maybe this could have worked I will have implemented or try it on the first week of January we will have implemented that in the parade there was no actually back to the oil barrel there was a price of acceptance for the state and the actual value of the petrol itself was that the

state was vacuuming even if it is the worst state possible and the one that you lack trust and is the master Robin and everything he will always accept the price of the petrol at the price of the old barrel they are not giving you older they are not paying you but he is accepting in that price that means that all taxes are are paid from the oil companies that are extracting all are being paid and unpaid show could be paid by petrol using that reference that services are I mean tax or any government contract it could be paid and anything will be always accepted to do that to that price that was the actual

value and that was encouraged for the whole country to actually do so the potential market of what the picture had is bigger than it still nowadays the whole cryptocurrency industry had only with a Venezuelan with Venezuelan people that for me was very valuable and if it will have mean for the Minister of Finance coming in by late January and trying to stop the project because he was kind of still figuring out by late December early January what was that about we would have been able to set it I don't think that the actual pact with the oil will have actually made any

difference and actually there is a confusion with people all saying wow the petrol is the old you're going to give me all the Maduro trying to explain the petrol created a confusion if you see the white paper that is what you need to see if you are analyzing a cryptocurrency there is no actual back to the to the or borrow the main reason for that it was constitutional I cancel oh and I didn't wanna compromise the future of my country by creating technically features of of the patrol for creating revenue to to the Venezuelan government that is gonna end up in korat pockets so basically if they are insuring one

petrol because it was going to be a limit of 100 if they're ition one petrol they are forcing themselves to actually accept it to the to the price of the whole bottle so that that is basically the way that we we design it and that will have worked particularly in a context where the Venezuelan government wouldn't be a sanction as it is today and the petrol wouldn't be a sanction as it is today because besides the technological facts still the sanctions play a huge role which makes me question also was it sanction because was their fear or the status quo of the u.s. dollar by having a currency that cool have rallied

support from other states that are not particularly aligned with the US and could use this currency without any intervention of the US and therefore in order to prevent that happen they actually sanction it before it was even born you know so so that makes you question and these are valid valid questions that that we wanted to have but I came from the US perspective that was a tool for manipulation tool for corruption and that's reasonable and I session and thanks to the session actually is the reason that I was able

to escape from the project on much that I was trying after I told the president gain that the Russians were problem that they weren't doing anything that we had to pray you write down and I tried to fight like couple more weeks from February to March and then March they threaten me again that I couldn't speak the project or the common I would be trodden in jail I was looking for a ways to go out and when the pellet was session I is essential to say that I wasn't able to keep working on a project because I had it wasn't the company of the period but I had a an American company and I had family in the US and I

couldn't keep working the parade that's who I pull out of it well thank thanks so much for coming on and telling us your story and all this interesting also historical aspect to this project and how it came to be and everything that came before it and so thanks for that and also for sharing your courageous story because it's I think a noble attempt at trying to fix one's own country especially in the face of such such such a challenge because it is in this case I think it was quite a big challenge that you undertook thanks for coming on thank you it doesn't end here there's much more of this

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