The Future of Liquid Staking and Restaking

Transcript

All right. We can kick off, right? Hope you are still energized and not flooded at all. You know, we are dry and clean over here. So, welcome to the panel. My name is Marcin. I'm co-founder of Redstone Oracles and ETH Warsaw. Redstone Oracles is the quickest growing Oracle modular Oracle in the market. We are the major liquid staking and liquid re-staking Oracle provider right now, protecting over $2 billion of assets on chain. And we are also very much dedicated to building on top of EigenLayer with re-staking and liquid re-staking and are the only Oracle that secured a commitment from liquid re-staking

protocol already with Ether.fi, who Mike is over here. Before we jump into the panel, I really would like to give each panelist opportunity to do short intro about yourself and about your project. So, Marin, why don't you start? Hi. I'm Marin, master protocol relations contributing to Lido DAO a bit over 2 years now. Uh so, good opportunity to distinguish Lido DAO and Lido software. So, the DAO is organization, community uh by enthusiasts, by node operators, by contributors, developers, and the builders uh all having a common goal to decentralize Ethereum and provide very

easy and accessible means of staking to users. Essentially, what software does, it's connecting end users and node operators. So, functioning as a middleware on Ethereum blockchain. Thank you, Mark. Hi all. I'm Mohawk. I'm the founder of ClayStack. Um ClayStack is a modular DVT-based liquid restaking protocol we have been building for last 2 years uh in liquid staking space. Uh and recently um enabled our restaking module.

Um yeah. Hey everyone, my name is Brian. so, I've been working in sort of around proof of stake for a long time. I was CEO of Tendermint in uh 2017 and then started Chorus One in 2018. So, we are, you know, one of the main institu- staking providers. So, we run infrastructure for around, you know, close to 60 different networks. Uh work with a lot of VCs, custodians, individuals, and, you know, have around, I think, 3 and 1/2 billion or something like that that's staked with us.

Nice. OG OG. Mike. Hi everyone, I'm uh Mike Silagadze. I'm founder and CEO of uh EtherFi. Uh EtherFi is a liquid restaking protocol, uh and long-term our goal is to make DeFi easy for everybody. Sweet. So, let's jump into the questions, right? So, Marin, let's start with you. Uh Lido is by far the largest player on liquid staking map, providing staked ETH and wrapped staked ETH, billions of dollars over there. So, with big organization, it's harder to keep up with the innovation. So, right now in 2024, liquid restaking is on the rise.

When do you believe Lido is going to enter liquid restaking, and what is needed for it to happen? Mhm. Uh actually, good question. So, I would kick it off with a segment it's not hard, it's slower. Why? Because when you're a smaller protocol, you have opportunity to risk. Everyone expects you to risk because you're trying to acquire more market, you're trying to push out new ideas, you're trying to be different. But, when you grow, uh essentially, you have responsibility to stakers. You can't do rare decisions uh uh with 30 billion dollars of uh management of assets being under management of the automated software,

right? So, it's really really delicate situation where you need to observe first. Restaking is super cool, super interesting, but it's not battle tested. It essentially launched less than a month ago. So, we have the first AVS there. So, there are so many unclarities uh that need to be tick boxed before uh established protocols can move in uh let's say all in. But, to kind of uh twist your question a bit or the answer to it, I wouldn't say Lido is not part of the restaking. When you think about it, there are 17 uh liquid restaking protocols.

Uh nine of them actually take stETH as deposits and three unstake it. But, when you take into consideration that three of them are not even live yet, it means more than 1/3 of live liquid restaking protocols are engaged with stETH as an underlying asset. So, I'd say confidently that Lido is already big part of the restaking. Sweet, then we'll be doubling down. So, can't wait to see that. Now, Mike, Ether.fi is at as of today the biggest liquid restaking protocol by TVL. Uh you attracted over 1 million of ETH, a lot of ETH,

and it's the only leading liquid restaking protocol with a token launched yet, as far as I know at least. what is going to be your focus in the coming months and quarters, and what kind of trends you foresee right now on liquid restaking as EigenLayer launched mainnet recently? Um that's that's a big question. I'll I'll talk about a couple of uh things. Um So, first of all, I think that the the category of liquid staking versus restaking um is really one category. I don't actually think these are going to be two separate things. I think relatively soon, probably within a year or two, uh

there's just going to be one overall category of staking and restaking is just going to be table stakes for all of them. Um there's lots of reasons for that. Uh in particular with the proposal that's going around to change the, you know, the rewards curve on Ethereum, it's actually not hard to imagine a world where native sort of vanilla staking yield is negative and all of the yields, all of the rewards are actually coming from restaking, in which case it will make no sense to do, you know, vanilla staking. Um restaking will be the only thing that actually makes sense. So, so, that's that's the first thing that I see happening is I think restaking is just going to become uh the the norm. Uh we're certainly going to see a flood of AVSs, so restaking services that

actually provide additional rewards for Ethereum stakers and then accrue value to uh to Ethereum. I think that um uh we're already starting to see that. I mean, there's probably hundreds of teams at this point that are working on restaking services. And and I view this as a positive thing, there are even alterna- there are now alternative restaking uh solutions like Carrick recently launched and there's a couple others in the works. Uh and I think that's really positive and good for uh for the overall ecosystem. And and briefly, what our goal is, we really view staking and restaking as this foundational thing. In some ways, you could sort of kind of think of it as like a savings account. You know, if you're not spending your ETH, you're

putting it to work. It's just kind of sitting there and giving you a, you know, the native yield of the ecosystem. Um so, we view that as a basis on top of which we plan to build a suite of applications that make DeFi easy for users. And I can, you know, talk more about that uh later on. Excellent. To give the audience a bit of a sense of what we are talking about, as of today, liquid staking is sitting at $45 billion and liquid restaking at $9 billion. So, these are pretty big stakes. And if if pumps goes up, naturally all the derivatives also appreciate in value.

So, now Mohak, you start like uh ClayStack started as LST protocol originally and then moved over to liquid restaking. Can you talk a little bit about this switch, how it went, and then also about the innovation modular DVT that you're building? Yeah, I think it was a natural evolution. So, we launched the liquid staking protocol last year from Token 2049 stage only in Singapore. So, uh good timing. So, what we have is uh what we want to do eventually is we want to make the core protocol immutable and remain all the modules upgradeable. Uh like for example, uh the reason Lido

um got so much stake, I mean, multiple reasons, but one of them was people felt like this protocol has been battle-tested so many times. There have been no upgrades after that. And um I think that's the reason like Lido will take so much time to go to restaking. So, what we want to do is EigenLayer will have many, many upgrades in the coming days. DVT will have many, many upgrades in coming days. SSV, Obol. So, what do you want to do is we want to create the core protocol immutable and make these modules uh upgradeable so that we can have very fast uh upgrades uh and support. So, right now we have four modules. One is DVT. Second is restaking. Third is MEV. Uh and fourth is layer two. Um and the evolution was, as I said, like it was

very natural. Uh and Mike also mentioned. So, eventually I think most of the liquid staking will just move towards restaking. Excellent. So, actually, it's pretty aligned with the future that Mike is kind of like anticipating that liquid staking slowly but steadily might go towards restaking. We'll see how it's going to play out. So, Brian, you're an old hand in operating nodes. Everyone knows that with Chorus One, one of the biggest brands in the space.

You're also a truly crypto G. Can you tell us a little bit how it much it differs to operate nodes for liquid staking protocols and liquid restaking protocols? And what challenges do you foresee with liquid restaking truly kicking in? So, more diverse because on liquid staking, everything is the same kind of like more or less. But with liquid restaking offers more diversity in terms of applications. Yeah. So, I mean, liquid staking, it's pretty simple, right? So, we were part of Lido, for example, from the start, one of the initial operators. And so, you know, people put ETH into Lido and then it gets staked and you just run ETH nodes, right? So, that's And it's basically the same for all the, you know, liquid

staking protocols, maybe with some differences. But liquid restaking is very different because there it's basically the case you have all of these new AVSs launching and then for us, there's like an incentive to kind of onboard like as many of them as we can. They will all have like their own tokens and then somebody who's holding an LRT or who's directly restaking ETH, let's say, with us, then, you know, they're they're going to probably get all these different airdrops and tokens from all these different chains. So, it's very, very different thing. It actually is more similar to what we do across other ecosystems where, you know,

we have this whole pipeline of we look at different projects, we do some due diligence, we decide, okay, which ones do we want to onboard, and then we onboard it. So, it's it's kind of similar to that. I think some of the challenges around the liquid restaking at the moment is um there is a since there's no slashing at the moment, sort of there is no real downside to just onboard like whatever. And also, it means that they I think the quality is not particularly high in many cases, right? So, a lot of the AVSs, you know, from security perspective or maturity, it's it's all like very rushed, and they're just like, "Oh, let's just like get it out as fast as we

can and figure things out later." So, I think that is definitely a challenge uh to deal with. So, we kind of have to balance between okay, we want to be, you know, fast, and we want to support a lot of things, and because, you know, the people like staking with us, whether that's going to be individuals or LRTs, uh so that they get the the best rewards, while at the same time not compromising, you know, certain quality and certain standards. So, for example, you know, we're we're not onboarding things that are like closed source, uh but like many others are, right? So, they're basically asking operators to run software they have like no idea what's running, uh which doesn't make any sense, right?

But um but yeah, I think I think it's just also a little bit at the moment this uh kind of hype and urgency, and you know, people rush a lot of things. Um but I'm sure over time this is going to improve, and a lot of the standards around AVSs and restaking are going to increase, and then uh in the end, it's of course uh it's very attractive, right? It's very attractive if you can earn yield multiple times on the same asset, um and and so I think there's no question that this is here to stay.

Excellent. So, as I hear it well, uh liquid staking became kind of like a norm when it comes to operating nodes. Not many surprises, but with liquid restaking, we still have to learn how they are going to behave with various AVSs. And for people not familiar, AVS stands for actively validated service, which is a service towards which the restaked value is pushed and basically protects in a cryptoeconomic sense that system. It can be a roll-up, it can be an oracle, it can be a bridge, it can be other service. That's the reason we have so much diversity in here.

So, let's step in a little bit? I wanted to add a bit about node operations as it relates to restaking. One of the big challenges I see with restaking and and operating nodes is at the current kind of moment in time, it pretty much completely boxes out solo stakers. Given the complexity, I mean, running a single node is complicated enough, but if you're now talking about running, you know, 15 different Docker containers on your little dapp node machine that's running on your desk, it becomes close to impossible. Not to mention that like onboarding with every single AVS is extremely complex, um and each one is like requires slightly different parameters in terms of how to run it. So, I think that's actually

people don't seem to talk a lot about that. People talk a lot about the the risks related to slashing when it comes to restaking. Um but there's not enough conversation, I think, around the centralization risk where effectively, I mean, it's not hard to imagine a world where basically all or significant portion of Ethereum ends up running in cloud data centers, um where, as I said, it completely pushes uh solo stakers out of the picture. So, that's something that we care a lot about, um and uh we're we're putting some work to try and address that.

Wow, nice. So, let's spice it up a bit. I see already some interesting topics. It's actually addressable through liquid staking tokens. There are protocols that are working heavily. Lido one of them. On actually onboarding additional module because Lido as well is a modular protocol. To have ultimate scalability. Thousands and thousands of node operators essentially within a module. So, when you look at the use case for restaking, you can lend out specific module.

Today we assess, right? It can be an operator. So, that way you can still maintain the decentralization. And not push huge amounts of heat to known known setups of node operators. Like when we start thinking about it, what keeps me up at night actually is the node operation level. And I'm not talking about Alluvial and their three node operators, right? End of the day, I'm speaking about the big established protocols that have good sets.

But it's limited number of entities that are actually doing the node operations. So, we tend to use the same, right? Etherfi, Lido. So, you can kind of a continue with multiple other liquid staking providers all utilizing same node operators. So, we are kind of a bit of stuck there and we need to figure this how to push a mass decentralization in terms of node operations. And this renting of modules with community node operators, that might be one very cool use case.

Nice. So, actually going forward coming to the topic about liquid staking becoming restaking. Marin, you as a representative of the biggest staking protocol liquid staking protocol, do you believe that eventually all liquid staking is going to happen to be liquid I don't have a crystal ball, honestly. But, it's a thing to be resolved by the market itself. Might be, might not. Why? Because essentially, the game will be won by the asset that's a better collateral.

Uh and those will be decided on the lending market. But then, when you start thinking scaling of collaterals on the lending markets, you need to understand the risk-reward position here. Uh with liquid staking, we now fully know the risks, right? Uh with liquid restaking, we don't. Especially because you inherit all the either native or liquid stake tokens that are under LRTs, right? Bundled. Uh you inherit the slashing risks, then you add new ones. Then, you add uh additional conditions which are not automated.

They're not on chain. And problem, currently, probably will be fixed down the road, uh it's slashed by a multi-sig. So, we have huge trust issues that we need to resolve to be able to scale. And when that's resolved, then it becomes very, very lucrative and scalable in terms of adding bunch of AVSs, uh which then will provide good APRs for the restakers. Currently, there was an uh research conducted by SteakHouse. Uh if all L2s uh put their sequencer fee profits into the restaking, let's imagine scenario they all become AVSs, they all

put sequencer fee profits, APR would be uh 1.5% with the current uh amount of ETH staked, which is around Am I wrong? Around 4,000 now? Being restaked, right? With Ether.fi, it's 1.4 million, sorry. And uh with EigenLayer total it's 4 million, yes. Sorry. So, TLDR, a lot of things need to fit in place, and I don't think one will replace the other.

To wrap it up, basically I believe liquid staking tokens and protocols will become a primitive that will be utilized into restaking. Sweet. So, like an evolution rather than like leapfrogging. And then one really interesting feature that people don't talk about is that in restaking, you can actually use other assets than only ETH or restaked ETH. Mohak, Brian, do you have any opinion on whether it's a good idea to utilize USDT, Bitcoin, um I don't know, maybe some RWA-backed stablecoins like Ondo and so forth restaking? Do you believe it's a good path forward?

Um I think like one way to think about restaking is that we are using ETH just as an asset class. But at the same time, it's more than that. We're using their staking contract. So, let's think of like something some crazy example which would not be possible if we were just using it We're sitting in Dubai right now. Let's say tomorrow Dubai police says that if you deposit $100,000 worth of ETH, it's your ETH, you're earning all the yield on it. Uh but now I'm creating new AVS, which is like What is AVS? A new consensus layer. All right. And then there are rules to this consensus layer, which you do not follow, then you get slashed. So, let's say the Dubai police

says that now you have $100,000 worth of security, you can go anywhere in the world, you can rent any car, uh any hotel, wherever up to $100,000 worth of security is required, just like go crazy. Uh and if you do not follow the rules of consensus, then we will slash some of that stake, which is like take the withdrawal authority of that stake. So, that's like one way to think about it in the current the way EigenLayer has been built. But eventually, I feel that it will expand to more and more asset classes because yeah, it will not just stay to eat.

Yeah, I mean I mean there's really nothing special about, you know, re-staking ETH, right? It could be any asset and so I think it certainly is going to happen. But I think the the interesting question is also like what exactly are you even doing if you're re-staking ETH or like what kind of security is being provided? Cuz if there's no slashing, right? Then well, there's really nothing at risk. What does this capital all mean? And I think the interesting thing if you look at the history of proof-of-stake protocols, I'm not aware of any staking protocol that over time increased the severity of their slashing. Like when Cosmos launched, we were like, "Oh, it's probably going to be maybe 20 or 30% but

we're going to launch with 5% slashing you know, because it's new and it's sort of unproven, right?" Today, it's still at 5%, right? Solana and Anatoly was talking about having 100% slashing because he was like, "Oh, this going to decentralize the stake because then people are going to divert not stake with just one provider." But you know, they started with zero and today it's still at zero. So, if you look at EigenLayer, I mean, are they going to even introduce slashing or like what kind of slashing? Like who knows, right? And so then I think one other way On some level, I think a lot of the security also comes from the reputation

of the node operators. I mean, in a way, Lido relies on that, right? Cuz Lido is like, "Okay, we're going to take you know, like the 30 best known node operators and do a whole bunch of due diligence and then you know, we have all of those and we kind of trust that there's that set. They don't have anything at stake, right? Um Oh, you know, like if if some node operator gets slashed, then they don't put up collateral for that. So, I also wonder if, you know, maybe things will go more in that direction where it's maybe more reputation based um and and yeah, I think slashing's a big question, but I I think the incentives are from my EigenLayer side, there's not a lot of incentive having to add like slashing and the AVSs of course

do they have an interest to add slashing? Like I don't think so. So, yeah, it's just curious to see how that will evolve. Super interesting. Quick question. in just a bit? But quick question. How much value has Chorus One slashed today, approximately? It's zero. Zero. You've never seen that. You've never been slashed. No. The tragedy of slashing, right? Everyone they talk about the risk about the slashing here and there, but then it turns out no one loses money, like zero or 5% what the man. Come on, like Yeah. What's going on here?

It actually happens. It happened to majority of staking protocols. Yeah, so how much Oh, that's follow-up question. No, how much on Lido was slashed to date has been slashed to date? Twice? Always covered, zero issues uh to the stakers, right? So, twice, but how much value all together has been slashed? I think top of the head one time it was 64 ETH. The first time it was less. Uh I So, so approximately zero, right? Yeah, like 64 for 20-something billion dollars right now is truly nothing, like not even peanuts.

Yeah, but issue issue that Brian kind of surfaced, it's true. And so, we are here colliding. For example, Lido protocol, 30 plus billion uh deposits. You can't insure it. No one wants to insure 30 billion in trad fi, trad tech. No one wants to insure that amount of funds. Uh, so there are levers that Dow has to make users whole. Uh, also node operators, specially good ones, uh, reimburse the users. So, it's but it's still not enough. When we think about scaling Ethereum's staking, it's still not enough. So, it there is a risk if it happens and large amount of

funds get slashed, there is a risk. It It's always good to say and people need to be aware. Regardless that amount compared to what's staked, it's peanuts. There is risk. Well, and it's not apples to apples, right? Ethereum slashing, I I mean, Ethereum's been, I don't know, almost 10 years old now, 8 years old, uh, you know, robust, battle tested versus AVSs that are like 5 minutes old, uh, not robust, not So, the risk is much higher, I think, objectively. Certainly, the variance is is a lot higher. So, I think, um, there's significant risk there and it should be taken seriously. I do want to go back to your question, uh, about different types of staking

assets because I actually think that's a it is a super interesting question. Uh, thinking about like ETH as a as a restaking asset versus, um, uh, restaking is the wrong word for it. ETH as a slashable security versus the USDC as a slashable security. Um, what you actually care about is the correlation between the value of that asset that you're using a slashable security and the thing that you're securing. Because if you're securing a bridge that primarily, you know, moves around, uh, ETH and altcoins and things like that, uh, if like like say ETH goes up, you know, 2x

and you're primarily using USDC as the slashable security, well, your effective security just dropped by 50%. So, you don't want to use USDC because if ETH goes up or goes down, using ETH is actually the right asset type for most of crypto, actually. Um on the other hand, if you're doing I don't know, an escrow service for some reason you made an escrow service AVS that actually deals in stables, then USD USDC might actually be the right asset type. So, it isn't as simple as just saying, oh, we're just going to support everything and we're going to support a pool or whatever. It actually does matter how you match the slashable security to the thing that you're securing and it's um maybe it's a a bit of a sort of pedantic kind of academic

point, but I actually think it's a good one um because lots of folks that I've seen seem to be thinking about it in these like very um abstract terms. Just like, oh yeah, sure, let's restake everything. Um whereas really it it it actually needs to be a much more kind of curated Restake LRTs. Well, sure. Some Karak is doing that, right? Uh And then and then you have a meme of, you know, like this astronaut pointing on an astronaut and then another one or a Spider-Man pointing on each other, right? Like, who is restaking what and at what, right? So, we can go to many dimensions of that.

Okay, we have 11 minutes left. One thing I just want to also touch upon and it's an open question to each of you. Ethereum is the king of smart contracts right now. And then on restaking, right now we have EigenLayer. But there's also Karak and most likely there are going to be other incumbents. Do you have any predictions how it will evolve? Is EigenLayer already set as the ultimate winner of the restaking game or there might there is a room for others and why? And yeah, basically like what's your take on that? And by the way, I I love the EigenLayer team, so sorry to ask that question, but I have to, right?

Yeah, I mean, they're probably the winner. I think they're they're sufficiently ahead. They're they're the thought leaders. I mean, I don't know. If I If I was a betting man, I'd probably say they're going to own most of the market share. Will EigenLayer be on Karak? when So, we're we're already working with the Karak team. I mean, loosely speaking. Um Uh if they launch a really great product, then for sure, yeah. When I mean, we're not trying to sort of pick winners in the space. We're uh if there are multiple restaking solutions, we we certainly would see ourselves as sort of routing across and load balancing across multiple ones.

Yeah, I mean, I I wouldn't be so sure that I think it's very early, right? And in the end, I think restaking is sort of this, you know, category. but there's a lot of things to be figured out, including your economic incentives, slashing, a lot of things. I think we're going to see a lot of competition. And you know, what we're also seeing, right, is protocols grow very fast by using, you know, points and a token to incentivize people to adopt it. Of course, that's how, you know, EigenLayer got like so much assets in there, but someone else will be able to use the same strategy, and then uh I

think this capital is very mobile and will move very quickly. So, and and and then I think uh you know, it's like an interesting question of like, okay, how would you do some maybe restaking protocol that works, you know, across chains, different asset classes. Uh you know, which I don't know if if EigenLayer is is going to be that one. So, I think it's very early, and I think we're going to see a lot of competition, a lot of alternatives, and uh you know, who knows? It's It's definitely a very deep question. Like when you start thinking scratching on it, it's very expensive to natively restake. So, in other hand, if you have LSTs, you can

simply wrap it and it's much less effort than you to faster to market. Plus, when you think uh currently with EigenLayer, there will be four providers. One is in stealth, you have Karak, you have Nectar. the stealth one will be decentralized version of EigenLayer. So, there will be market dynamics that will be pushed left and right. We don't know, right? But current grind, current push towards restaking is driven by points, right? Because it's a good way to not dilute uh tokens by airdrops, but you give points, which you can later convert to just about anything. They do set expectations,

though. So, there's that. Uh however, it's a really, really good mechanics. And plus, when it became stackable, like you you're you're earn EigenLayer points then EtherFi points on top, it's a no-brainer. Like, why would you say no to that? But until the points craze and this uh bull market mentality is ongoing, we will not have a clear picture how it will result and how will new liquid restaking uh not liquid restaking, but how will new restaking protocols affect this, because they will do their own points. Uh they will have their own AVSs, and no one will say no to revenue. Trust me, no point, right? If it's secure enough, always that risk reward.

If it meets the balance, no one will say no. So, it will be very, very interesting uh market evolution. I mean, the main thing I heard is you should definitely stake on EtherFi cuz you earn all these points. That was the main takeaway for me. Maybe Maybe I the loyalty point. Mohawk Yeah, I would say that even though it it is early, but at the same time the the value that has been locked on EigenLayer, it's it's quite substantial to find that escape velocity. Like initially, obviously, we discussed a lot of risk. For risk taking for me, I thought like last year that in order for risk taking to work, the escape velocity is 10 billion. And to be honest, last year that was a pipe dream. And then it

actually happened. So, I feel like in terms of the competitors to risk taking on EigenLayer, they have to look at other assets. And for example, now it's happening on Bitcoin, BounceBit, Babylon. So, if for other competitors, they have to attract a lot of value from other asset classes to be able to kind of compete on ETH, I think they are definitely far ahead. Nice. All right, so we have 5 minutes left. It's 18th of April, 2024 today. We are going to meet again in a year on another historical thunderstorm and, you know, havoc in Dubai and flooding because it happens every year, right?

Whenever token is happening. What is going to be the biggest achievement of yourself as a person or a project by that time in a year when we meet again? I don't know. I prefer to speak about the project in in this sense. So, Because some of you might be leaving the project in some time. Maybe some alpha there, you know, like OG's in projects spin up new projects. So, I just want to leave room for some interesting ideas here.

Fair. So, community is taking module mentally, you can imagine it something similar to Rocket Pool itself. Just without the governance token being involved into running nodes. Uh so, that will be one large milestone to scale number of node operators. Uh also, dual governance, which will align the stakers and governance token holders because they don't necessarily need to be the same. Other things, sadly, I can't speak yet, but soon, I guess.

Something to anticipate from the DAO. Oh, interesting. All right. Uh for us, we have been working very hard to enable our VFP module, which is validator funding providers. So, the goal is that when when you or the challenge that most protocols face when they onboard home stakers is um if you ask for more bond, like let's say four ETH bond, probably for crypto bros, that's nothing, but for a home staker, that's a lot of money. Uh so, it always hits scalability issues. And if you rely just on professional validators, then it becomes like more and more centralized. So, we have this one module where uh we're going to build a reputation-based model where VFPs uh can deposit ETH in this pool who are

underwriting the bond for different validators. Let's say there is a validator who has been running nodes on testnet for more than a year and has never been slashed, running it very diligently. So, creating like combination of clusters of professional DVT clusters of professional validators and home stakers. So, the goal in a year would be uh to have more than 66% of the validators as home stakers. Okay, so so, I'm going to yeah, say a few things. So, for us, one big thing is, you know, just scaling the number of networks we support. At the moment, there's a lot of uh a lot of things launching, you know, we have like so many protocols approach us, like, "Hey, can you support this?

Can you support that?" You know, protocols are like solid and looks good and stuff like that. And Huh? Meme coins. No, meme coins not so much, right? Cuz we mainly run like, you know, staking infrastructure, right? And they're mostly like just token on top of chains. But, uh, you know, today I think we support around like 55 different protocols. So, I think within a year we want to scale this to maybe to something like 100. Uh, so that's one. You know, another thing is, you know, we work a lot with different custodians, institutional partners. And so, that's that also a big focus for us is to like extend that work and sort of help bring staking more to, you know, also integrate it into the

mainstream financial system and the different types of institutions. So, there's a lot of work we do around that. Uh, and I would say the third one might be around re-staking. So, you know, we've also been putting a lot of work into, you know, EigenLayer, uh, figure, you know, we're looking at different AVSs. And I think it's just a very new space that's emerging a lot. And so, you know, we want to be at the forefront of that and like, you know, kind of help shape how that, uh, sort of unfolds in in a, you know, responsible way that will also give the confidence to, you know, uh, a large number of, uh, sort of crypto holders and including more institutional holders to say, "Okay, I'm confident to, you know, to start re-staking and participating in that as

well." Trust, okay. So, I kind of started off this this panel by talking about how our ultimate goal was to make DeFi easy for normal people. Um, and so, I'll I'll just talk about that. Uh, we we started off and most people know us as a liquid re-staking protocol and that's, you know, mainly what what we do today. But, our medium-to-long-term goal is to launch a suite of integrated products that make it easy for millions, maybe even billions of users to get on board onto crypto. Concretely, what that looks like is starting with our staking product, continuing with our liquid product, which is now the largest DeFi strategy vault in in crypto, and then continuing with our cash product. So, those three

products allow you to save, invest, and spend your money in crypto so that you never have to off-ramp, so that you can fully live in crypto without having to uh you know, off-ramp to tradfi. Excellent. Yeah, so we are almost at time. Maybe I'm going to finish also with Redstone. We are super dedicated in implementing restaking our infrastructure in a year. You are going to see Redstone AVS validating all our data that goes through the pipeline. We already working on that. We did first commits, and within a year we are going to have a fully fledged product. So, thanks a lot for this panel. I think it was super interesting with many good analogies, and let me also take the selfie at the end so that we can spread

the finger around. All right. Thanks a lot, guys, and thank you for listening.