From Dot-Com to Blockchain Entrepreneur - Mathias Ruch, Lakeside Partners/CV VC

Transcript

[Music] hello and welcome to the blockchain and us we're pioneers and thought leaders talked about their journey in blockchain technology crypto assets and a token economy and I'm your host Manuel staggers this episode has support from no official sponsor but from my very own the blockchain and us newsletter get an email from me every two weeks with a very short summary of new podcast episodes so you can immediately pick those interviews you'd like to listen to to stay up-to-date just visit www.cannainsider.com/careers one of the leading early stage investment companies

in Switzerland's crypto Valley and he is the co initiator of the blockchain competition and the initiator of crypto valley labs matthias has been in the digital startup scene for 20 years as an entrepreneur and angel investor and before focusing on blockchain technology he built and exited several successful online and media companies Matthias is also leading the blockchain task force assembled by the Swiss Federal Council and now to the interview hi Matthias and many thanks for making time today hi Mario very nice to be here thank you Matthias you have built and sold several companies in media and FinTech and now

you're mainly an investor in blockchain companies what do you find so attractive about this sector I am not only an investor or we are not only investors we have become enablers facilitators here at the crypto valley so you know the term investor wouldn't be entirely correct you know compared to what we are doing but to answer your question I I need to go back in time right because when I when I started my professional career roughly 20 years ago that was during the dot-com boom here in Teresa in we also experienced a kind of a dot-com boom what I experienced 10 is quite

similar what we are experienced what we are experiencing today here in Switzerland at the Krypto Valley so what is interesting to me as an entrepreneur this opportunity that actually really lies in front of me is is so huge that I don't want to miss out as an entrepreneur but what exactly is the opportunity I think this is the most important opportunity in a professional sense of my life and for Switzerland as well and the opportunity is to build a

new ecosystem based on a technology called pop chain which has the power to transform not only businesses but also societies and it all happens in front of my door by accident I just live here and the world comes to my place and this is just fascinating how did you get into this field I mean how did you first hear about crypto currencies or blockchain technology I'm a new kid on the block so I'm not one of the guys that has been in there since 2009 but I am I'm a tech savvy person so I've been in the digital

startup industry for 20 years so when we started 20 years ago my first startup was a dating platform for teenagers and the the reason I you know was tapping into blockchain was for the past 10 years I've been an angel investor and I was actually I was a bit tired of also always experiencing the same issues with the startups right so we identified three core issues and we wanted to tackle them with a new investment among that we called smart capital investment model and this model but the goal of this model was to align interests amongst all

stakeholders of a start-up project right so not only the founders but also the people that would support the founders in the beginning so people that would design websites that would create applications that would do the legal stuff the legal framework so we came up with a system that we would invest and all the service providers around that startup would be participate and participating in in the form of virtual shareholders so in the case of a liquidity event they would participate as well makes them actual real shareholders and you know when we when we started that that was in 2014 we didn't actually start in a fully

digitized way so we just had our Excel sheets and and our old-school contracts with all the service providers and we realized well if there would be a software that could do that including that the contract thing and you know the automated payout for example that would be fascinating and just perfect for our case and this is when I stumbled upon blockchain because that technology existed but I didn't know if that took technology before and who told you about it III read about the Dow actually so we were we were at the time that was a couple months before the Dow what we were screening or using for our

investors presentation was the crowdfunding market right and when you start looking into the crowdfunding market with angel list and and who is out there you start to learn you know how it works and what the other players were and then based on the concept that the Dow introduced was exactly what we were looking for right and that was the first decentralized autonomous organization yes yes you know and what they wanted to do as far as if I remember correctly was actually also support during projects you know that would it would be completely community based they would vote for broke jets that get funded and and this was very appealing to us and and and seemed like the

solution the way to go what's the technology behind what is blocked and of course I had heard of Bitcoin before but only in the sense of a cryptocurrency I didn't look behind you know I was the same as everybody is today they don't look behind Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies it's just a hype but but they don't know and what I didn't know at the time was the powerful technology behind that mm-hmm and now as an investment fund is where you thought you know we can also do that it's actually exactly what we're already doing but just in a little bit maybe less elegant way yes we were so the story with Mex and partners is exactly that we were pivoting at the time right so we were saying okay let's create a platform let's do that online and let's use this technology we haven't

implemented it ever to be honest right but because the blockchain hype came right so what we did is we incorporated Lakeside partners and and we started to look into the blockchain space here in the crypto valley because when we started we weren't we weren't actually focusing on blockchain yet we were for our investment focus areas were lifestyle and entertainment and FinTech in a very broad sense right and of course we said okay blockchain might belong to fin tech in a very broad sense but then when we started to look into the crypto valley and the players here what we realized was there is a there is an ecosystem it was a fragile one right

so you know we talked to the government to the Kenton we heard about how aetherium came here we met with the guys from eighth year we were met with me hi and and and other people and and we started to learn how this all developed or was developing and you know what we are decision that we took at the time that was maybe early 16 I would say was okay we want to invest into the technology blockchain as a new focus area and let's see what's out there and for us for early stage investors

what we realized is if we want to generate future investment opportunities we have to invest into incubation so one step before early stage because the space isn't there yet right it's it's the the projects they didn't have the same maturity level that the startups we were used to a look at had at the time so for us it was him you know the decision was yes we are going to invest into blockchain technology but with a different business model called incubation and we launched we launched several activities the first activity that we actually launched was the blockchain competition and this was really actually that was based of an idea of one of our

consultants of our IT consulting company and he said let's do a startup competition for the blockchain startups and we were okay let's do that and let's not do finance because everybody else did and does finance at the time let's do something different let's do insurance because we know the insurance market in Switzerland and and we have a network in the insurance market as we sign and Europe so we did blockchain for insurance so the niche of the niche and you know what happened was we added a price tag that was pre ICO craze right we added a hundred thousand USD don't ask me why we added fiat money at the time but we did and we were the biggest

blockchain contest worldwide at the time so this gave us a lot of attention and it you know the the story ended with over a hundred applications from like 37 countries very international right so only a few a few ones were from Switzerland at the time it's it's also I mean of course it's good about promoting the ecosystem this way but it's also a sourcing strategy if now of course yes now now for us it still flow if you want to use the investors lingo so when you when you look at project for you yes that are relevant as investments what what do you look at you know the challenge we have we looked at

over a thousand projects the past twelve to eighteen months and those are all blockchain focused yes we quickly we quickly started to to position ourselves as blockchain focused investors at the crypto valley which was a unique proposition or position at the time so so you know that the Canton's started to send the people over sometimes they would just Google and they would just knock on our doors and they would just come in they would just come here and say I am this project I'm from Japan I need funding I want to set up shop here today right do I have to do and and

then what do you do and then we and then we started to talk to all of them so invite you invite them and say please pitch - yes yes yes so when when they pitched yes what were the things that you focused on people that will come here they had seen the huge I SEOs and they wanted to do the same so the first line when they came in here it was always the first slide said always said our min cap is a hundred million we're going to fund 100 million this was that the the line they started with right after two months we couldn't take it anymore right but we really listened to all of them because we we had to adapt right nine out of ten

of these projects wouldn't have made it into the board room before you know because tape would lack basically everything I mean a lot of these projects were based on a on a white paper ish kind of documentation a team based out of three people this distributed all over the world a fancy website that was it right it wouldn't it just wouldn't make sense to give him a hundred million but a lot of these people and and and projects they would walk out and a couple of weeks later they would get the funding and from there I see from there I see oh yeah so so we've seen that a lot and

over a thousand came through the door yes and how many did you end up working with so we had a we had took a different approach B maybe maybe this is the swaysway I don't know we but we you always said me and my two partners Marco and Ralph we said we don't want to speculate we could have done speculating at any point actually right and a lot of people had of course but we said we are we are entrepreneurs right so but we've been entrepreneurs for the past 20 years we are in it because of the entrepreneurs and because of the entrepreneurial spirit and the creativity the technology actually sets free that what that's what fascinates me

still today the amount of creativity that the technology kind of frees up in people's minds you know that this is really fascinating and we said every decision we take today because we were first it was clear that we are on the way up of this lifecycle all right so and and and sometimes at some point it will go down right and we want to be ready when it goes up again when the rebound phase comes right so every decision we take here today has to be one that would be still valid after the bubble crashes right or bursts

so it has to be a long-term variable process for us it has to be you know I mean when it when it comes to deliverables of these projects um a lot of these projects they wouldn't actually know how how they would deliver what they what you know what they think their project is right so they they would lack of basic entrepreneurial skills and and and and preparations and they would just go for that and I I don't think it's very healthy if you have a hundred million on your account somewhere on your wallet and you're exploring your way through

how you could realize your idea right I think it's just not healthy I and a lot of these projects and people were very young right and you just lack of experience and then if when you have so much money a lot of advisers will jump in and tell you what you have to do we have to be a very strong personality to get things done if you have this kind of situation and of obviously you want to invest in those teams and entrepreneurs who have that personality yes so what is for you a way to find out you know what will be quickly started so let's go back to these first three months we listen to everybody and it was painful and but we learned right and and

we had to adapt and and and it quickly very very quickly came down to talking to the people behind so we would for example we would say listen if you want to get funded or if you can if we should help you on the process to to an ICO we want to see the core team and you have to come to Zook and and a lot of people a lot of these projects actually did they came here and and and because they wanted to see the Krypto Valley and you know also check out the ecosystem and for us this was a good kind of a first threshold when it comes to selecting the project because in the end it all it all

breaks down to execution also in this space right and execution has to be done by people with skills and and brains so then the team that was previously decentralized one guy in Estonia another guy in Ukraine the other guy maybe a Swiss person and then you know a guy from the UK they they all flew to sook met you here I mean the core people it was always be wanting to see the founder so a lot of times these were the tech people but sometimes they were the business guys right and they then we wanted to see the tech guy as well because we was always challenged the business case is the traditional way right so there's the business case someone needs to design the business model but how do you think this will

evolve we all know that a business plan is outdated after this headset the second you hit the save button right but still you have to have a plan how you do it right and you know then we would bring into tech people from our site that would challenge the the use of the technology and and and then we would learn how to actually charge a project and what we then did is different to maybe other investors is with what we we focused on verticals on on industries and we started with those we knew best so we started with insurance and we would pick one company that we think is

is doing well and and has a good set up and and has a promising idea and we incubated them so we we you know we applied the smart capital approach in the sense that we would coach them that we would help them set up shop we will you know we would discuss a company structure with them we will challenge the business case we will help them get new partners the basic stuff that you would do with a regular startup and then we went from insurance sector to the next sector we looked at let me go back there again because I'm just very interested in you know what makes a good

team and I mean if I mean also I started some companies myself and I've worked with many entrepreneurs and I've seen you know some of the mistakes they make when they present their idea or also themselves and others that did exceptionally well and and there is kind of a blueprint there I think so of course you know it comes down to experience you have to know can these people deliver but what exactly is the care characteristic do you know that that you look for what me personally what I think is very important is some you know sometimes the people with the greatest ideas and with a strong

execution power in the first phase or phases of of a project they are not the right ones when it when when the company reaches the next level when it comes to growth for example right even I might not be the right person for a project that I am actually setting up at the moment for a later stage and it takes a lot to be able to say and step back and get someone else do the job at the front so you either have to be very skilled in a lot of different areas of expertise or you have to be able to make the right

decision to get other people on board it's the most important thing I mean it's done by people in the end and you have to be able to get the right people and so you need to see if people are able to work with the team are you open are you open to suggestions if we tell you if we criticize your project how do you handle that can you deal with with critical questions what happens with you when somebody someone says listen I don't think this is going to work are you open to suggestions how we could do it differently are you open to to have someone beside you coaching

you on honor on a on a specific aspect are you open to let go of things that you thought were crucial for the success of the project are you are you open to to reduce your idea to the max right and this can be very painful I noticed from my own experience how do you test for that ability you cannot test everything right and and in the end it's it's it's it's it's also got feeling all right so we keep saying there's a joke that we keep making you know we can come up we can show you our investment all and how we touched the projects and the people and everything and but in to be honest in the end a lot of our decisions are also based on gut feeling of course

have criteria strategic ones why we want to invest into certain categories or sectors and and and and product but but then when you sit in front of people it breaks down to do you think they are due to can they do the job or can they bring the people that can do the job mm-hmm yes so a human component not just the technology not just the revenue not just a profit potential but are they likable this is how we work right I I can just tell tell you how how we judge or how we do it in the space that we are in currently and and you know it also when we start like because

we are starting our own ventures and and we have so many many projects going on when we started looking into the space we said we don't want to do projects and we don't want to do events now we do like four events a year and I don't know how many projects we started on our own when you when you meet new people and and and you and you're confronted with new ideas that have great potential and you decide that you want to follow up on that idea and and you try to realize that doesn't it just also come down to the chemistry between the people involved right so do you like to work with that Pete with that person do you

think you can go through the ups and the downs that will come in a project how are you going to feel actually in in such a situation with the people that are closest to you and and and for our companies and for our history this this has been crucial this is this is well it all it's all about relations between the people in your closest circle and and how you how you tackle tough situations because they're going to be a lot of tough calls that you have to make absolutely a lot of the entrepreneurs I see in the

blockchain and crypto space they say I work on this for years already every minute of the day it's that a good sign for you well dedication is good right so I think passion eats strategy for breakfast right and then many other things so passionate people passionate people hardworking people is is is good but you can also lose sight of what's really important right so you can be very focused and one one thing and you might not be able to listen what other people or what even the market is doing right

so you can you can you can you there's there's a possibility that you can lose track of what's happening out there and you know in if you end up four years later with the idea you had four years ago but the world moved on and you're stuck with an idea that is no longer right for the market or the current situation you can be stuck so there's couldn't bad to that I really really like passionate people but again you have to be open to what's happening around you happened also to me that I wasn't right you know in in previous project and and if you are not you know

people and the world moves on and and you might be outdated mmhmm yeah I understand I mean definitely I know that for myself when I whenever I start something I do it 200% I mean if that's even possible right and you know but I've seen then you know I always thought this is a fantastic thing you know it's a great quality to have this hyper focus on this one goal but I find it can also be not that great I mean because I've seen many people who didn't have that and succeeded yes wildly yes I agree this the problem if you have experienced and maybe we share this experience you want to go back there the only thing you want to experience is you want to experience the same thing again it's the

same with me right so I was very lucky in when I was very young to have founded a company that became successful very fast so it would that was during the.com boom that was the the dating platform for teenager turned into a TV show and and that this TV show here in Switzerland some somehow became very popular in a in the in the in the in a target group of the young people and this was the flavor of the day at the time and we we grew very fast had new

ideas and and we were very lucky because also the new formats that we introduced to the audience they liked him and that this experience you know you would go to sleep because you have to sleep and you know you would only want to sleep the minimum amount of hours so he can get up and get back to what you have what you did the day before right and this happened over and over again and you know like all good things they come to an end and my end there was we sold the company and for for example I completely misjudged to what it means to sell your meaning of life because that what it was

I thought it wasn't I thought it was just a company and and I could you know sell it and and move on but I sold my heart and this was a that was a really strong experience and to be honest and I'd say I had successful companies after that one I never experienced that again the same way right and and and but I strive for this experience so I would second your your opinion or your experience that there is those that have had this kind of full dedication and and passion and we're successful and there

is those that didn't but were six were still successful so probably it I would agree it isn't the number one ingredient that you need to have to be successful but it helps in the sense of its fantastic fun good point yeah I mean you know I just I like to find out you know today because I mean that was almost 20 years ago for me right when I when I had these companies and and and did this work and now you know I see a lot of very young entrepreneurs go at this crypto and blockchain a sector with similar ideas you know to do something that's very meaningful that has a huge impact in the long run and they have

similar dedication some of them and others are very different but I find that at the end of the day you know how you approach something hasn't really changed it's it's still the same right I mean of course it's a different field yes no I completely agree it and that's what we are experiencing now right so I could put like this common sense is back in the system which is good it just doesn't make sense to give someone huge amounts of money based on nothing it's not healthy in the long run for the person that you know gets the money as well so yeah I would completely agree I

think things haven't changed and I also agree that there's a lot of people with a green amount of dedication and and idealism and and you know strong strong messages behind the projects and and really they want to change things and it's fantastic to see but you still have to make it happen right so it's not just the idea that is sufficient you know you really have to think okay what does it mean if you want to bank the unbanked what does it mean if you want to get rid of the intermediaries between a and Z because you are introducing this token or this tokenized

process if you know what does it mean to deliver what you were promising what does it mean if you want to you know bring the financial system for example to community of millions of people that didn't have that before this is fan it sounds fantastic but the rollout plan is really hard mm-hmm yes execution and yes execution and if you are and I was the same right so I was 20 when I started this these platforms during the dot-com boom you you think you can do anything you know when you

are so convinced of what you are doing but what you don't have is the experience and there is people who have the experience and to be able at this age to accept people with that experiencing coaching you is really the skill that it takes in my opinion also right now in this situation we are in right now back then did you have that skill not not all the time no I was really to be honest I was really lucky that we that we hit the flavor of the day during these days with other companies as well you know we started with developing community tools that was pre Facebook

you know Facebook wasn't there but everybody needed to communicate through the websites with blogs and and and new polls and chats and and we had as a software suite you could call it like that right that you could implement into your website and then you know you could communicate with your community community tools we called it at the time that was successful as well but then I had I had ideas that weren't successful where I obviously didn't listen to to the world around me as well is this something you do different if you could you know if you could do it again let's

take a quick break for a message from our sponsors this episode has support from no official sponsor but from my very own the blockchain and us newsletter get an email from me every two weeks with a very short summary of new podcast episodes so you can immediately pick those interviews you'd like to listen to to stay up-to-date just visit www.opm.gov/health involved at a very early stage you could also say my steak gets smaller right but then the chances that it is

going to be successful are much higher this I do differently compared to I did it I did 20 years ago and and it's hard right it you have to give away you think you have the idea and and you have figured it all out but why should I include you and the reason you should include someone else is he can help you with something you might not achieve yourself and this was my learning for example this was really I had to learn that and to understand and to him open up what else would you do differently not a lot actually I would still I would still try out things and and and as an

as an entrepreneur you have fun was was was of essence all the time to me it I have to like what I do all day right so and and and then you know fun isn't always the best advisor when it comes to to to entrepreneurship but it's important and and then you and then you try things out and and and you know sometimes you really have to do something in order to find out if it works or not and I would do it the same you know maybe I wouldn't I wouldn't with

them with what I know now I wouldn't start the one or to protect that from how I see today were very naive right so um and and but that's that comes with experience that's completely okay you lose money you get money you invest money that's the game right yes then there's more where that's coming from yes that's true my dears I also wanted to ask about another thing you're doing which is the the Swiss blockchain task force with the Swiss government so did you did you initiated that project right yes

together with the lorentz for the it all you know what is the what year is it now to an 18 right so 2017 in the summer of 2017 the federal counselor you're on tonight Raman he's the minister of economic he reached out to the Canton of Duke and he told them I would like to learn everything about crypto Valley now he could have sent a delegation and you know they could write a report and he could read the report but he said no I want to go there and the Canton reached out to us and said could you organise an afternoon and could you somehow come up

with a structure for for this afternoon and of course we did and you know we said what we should do is we should really focus on the people and the projects that are active in this space right so because he wasn't an entrepreneur himself and and you know hearing from people that are actually doing projects and and startups right now would be the best and so he came we invited a bunch of people and projects they would tell them the whole delegation and him what they are doing what their experience is the

pros and cons and why this is working and what maybe needs to be done and and I had the impression he was really am fascinated by what's happening here at the Krypto Valley and I kept in touch with them and I told him if you ever need something like that for the members of the Parliament we'd be happy to organise a similar workshop in the capital in in Bern because what we realized at that time already was that we are in a bubble here you know I live in the Zurich I every morning I Drive to

Zook I entered the bubble I leave the bubble and even my wife doesn't understand what I'm doing and so so when it comes to the people I mean really the also the people in Zook the people on the streets and and the members of the parliament they have no idea what's going on and they how could they I mean I mean how could I have an image of what's going on at the Krypto Valley because it's it's it's that's really difficult right so I had a couple of meetings outside this bubble where I started talking about tokens and blockchain and everything and eyes got

bigger and bigger and you know after like some five to ten minutes I realized do you understand anything I'm saying and people will go no and you have to be very basic you know and if you if you if you try to explain what's what's happening and this this was a learning as well for us and but they still wanted to learn about it I mean you know they're very curious right so what then happened so you know there that there was this call from the communication sky of Johan Schneiderman who called me and said can you come to meeting and I said yes of course happy to and and I went ever and expected a one-on-one and that this was a table a room full of people

and we have this this lunch and and they were asking me what I should do or what I would do and I said I would I would try to integrate all the stakeholders of the ecosystem not only the startups but also the legacy industry the politicians society research so everybody who was actually involved in in what's happening or will be involved because technology is going to have an impact on many of the industries and and the businesses in the industries as well and and even on the people but why did they reach out to you I mean sure they wanted to

understand what's happening but when the Swiss government is necessarily known for being risk seeking so but what was their what was their realization or their motivation behind that there has been or the there has been people like your aunt Schneider Allman who understood the opportunity and you know if if you understand the opportunity you you you cannot miss out you know one of one of our startups as a Stephan carpi shape he once said the moment you you you start to understand or learn about blockchain you cannot sleep anymore something like that and that's true and this happened to these people as well so they understood the opportunity for

Switzerland and and for you know the Swiss economy but that was somebody from the Parliament also yeah so members of the Parliament understood there are very savvy people and you know with the rise of Bitcoin there was a time when when Bitcoin was in everybody's mouth right and and you have to become active at a certain point because when you read in the papers about the next I saw that has hit the 200 million goal happening in Zook people start to ask questions not only the nice ones but maybe also the

other ones and they have to become active right so there's always pros and cons when it comes to new technologies that have to power to change things and normally you um independent in the beginning you you you you you overestimate what they can do but in the longer and they probably can do a lot of things and and you know so to come back to this to this to this lunch the the way it went on was that Lorenz fuller my co initiator said let's

do this and and when we reached out to those people of all the stakeholders that we wanted to have in the task for everybody said yes we launched this task force in less than two weeks and we wrote just one email to all these people and everybody said yes I want to join so we knew that we were on the right track and these were personalities you know CEOs and politicians counselors senators and yeah I remember our inaugural meeting was in early January this year I think we invited 35 persons out of these 35 to or federal counselors normally they don't show up right so 33 came so

everybody wanted to be part of that task force and um yeah this is how it took off also the entrepreneur I mean a lot of entrepreneurs in this field also are in the task force yes of course no of course the industry has to be represented in there it all breaks down to regulatory issues right so how should the space be regulated that was the main question from the beginning and you have if you want to do smart regulation you have to have the people that are in this space you have to have to startups to the thought leaders that are you know at the forefront of what's happening so did they had to be in there but as well

every other stakeholders such as research and ETH for example and politicians and the legacy industry even the banks and everybody was in there what is the main goal of the task force so when people ask me why are you why are you doing this because it's really a lot of work to them to you know to lead a task force of 50 personalities and and to deliver something with this group and we wanted to deliver and we have to deliver very fast because of this place

moving so fast I said there's two aspects to it there's a personal one as an entrepreneur I wanna I don't want to miss out on the opportunity and I am a Swiss citizen I chose to live here with my family I have two small kids and I'm very lucky to be here and very lucky that this happens in front of my door and if I can help make this ecosystem and this opportunity more attractive and sustainable there's something I can actually do for the future generations because this can be a massive a massive industry and I want to have the industry here a part of the industry here of

course it's a decentralized world and I think that maybe there will be different jurisdiction catering to different needs of the industry but I want whitson to be one of these hubs that can cater to a certain industry and there are people that understand that and that's the goal of the task force to keep that we have a current we have a currently we have a competitive advantage if you want to call that based on what had happened in the crypto valley and you know there's not only us that wants to get the industry so there's other countries and jurisdictions in this geopolitical race and so we're working to to keep this ecosystem and to make it more attractive

in the future how good a location is Switzerland for this field well what we did is we we ask all of the startups why they come here this gives you an impression very a very objective impression on why they come here is theirs and so there's the classic reasons stability quality of life when it comes to the to the legal aspects of

the legal framework it's clear you have a defined we have the categories released by any regulator even though there is still some clarity missing in the details you use you have a framework and you can and if you comply with the laws behind the framework you have a clear legal situation so legal certainty it gives you exactly legal certainty and this is really important to most of the startups and then you have an ecosystem where you have service providers that can help you actually get going right so you can be

very fast here but I think what makes Switzerland unique is experience and expertise nowhere else in the whole world have there been so many projects at a very small place I mean if you see if you look at Duke it's a really small city right and if you go to a meet-up here what's different - maybe meetups in in Singapore or in other places that's what the startups tell us is the the amount of founders and thought leaders and you know project initiators is its massive so out of these a hundred people 50 are

the people that actually lead the space or lead projects in the space so you meet with with Luis from Oregon you meet with the Mellon poor people you meet there shape-shift there's Bank or there's Cardinal and these people are here and you meet with them and this is what fascinates you know the other startups so it's it's it's a mixture between network effects that kick in and then there are the role models here you know the story with the theorem began here and then for example Mihai he he comes here often and then they contribute and they want to give back to the ecosystem and it makes it a very special place at the moment so the jurisdiction I would say

is number one so the legal framework the legal clarity the community here the service providers and you know it's also good for raising money in the end and you said it before the people I think the people are very open it's a very flat structure I mean everything this over and over again with with my project I mean I made over a hundred interviews for my films and I mean it wasn't that hard to to get interviews in Switzerland with very very high ranking people no that's that's true as this is very special so III there's this this point that I make Switzerland has decentralization and consensus in its

DNA it sounds a bit cheesy but it's true with the federal system the direct democracy system you know with the Canton's and and and they can decide a lot right and and this is very appealing to the community and they quickly understand how this works here so the authorities and how approachable they are this is very important I mean when you when you ask the the the people from the government that were there when he theorem came here Vitalik and his crew you know of course they didn't understand what they want to do but they wanted to learn and they listened to

them and you know they organized them the apartment where they could live and and they help them settle down and they help them you know create an atmosphere and and a set up so that they could realize their their idea and this is very unique so still now when it comes to having someone from the cantonal or the city government come over when a start-up is here and and wants to learn about how you know things are are going here we call them up and they come over and it's literally a walk and and this is this is

very very unique I think it's also bit unique to Zook this open-minded mindset to the to the authorities here because I have been in I've lived in Zurich in Bern and and somehow there's an a really open mind set here in Zook and I keep saying blockchain first of all isn't the technology it's also a mindset it's it's how you think and how you look at things and so that's what we are told by this by a lot a lot of the startups this is what makes the place very appealing to settle down and start your your your shop here mm-hmm it's it's a good point

I mean that mindset I wanted to ask you about that a little before um you know when you when you look at this government task force right I'm sure there are some hardliners maybe in this space to say that's the last thing we need will just disrupt everything we make the banks go away we make you know we build our own system we don't need to kind of you know integrate ourselves in in what what all these old structures that exist we just create our own I mean how important have you found that to be in in this block chain or crypto movement you mean this anti-establishment attitude and and

power to disrupt basically everything towards having the space regulated and and the need to structure a few things maybe absolutely I mean of course you know it's it's important to have regulation you because if you break the law then you know your company will be shut down or you get a lawsuit on your hands from you know maybe maybe the authorities or investors who are unhappy with how you dealt with their money right so you need regulation but on the other hand you see you know some of these companies in the field saying banks will not be necessary soon anymore you know laws could be code and then

there is a question where is that balance and how happy are those incumbents who are also part of the task force to hear those stories so it is I think you know this is it is very important that these may be radical views are there right because they drive the development and and you know if you look at satoshis white paper this is very radical to the the original concept behind but coin well it's an inner kiss yes yes I mean it's a so then you so an anarchistic

collaborating with the government I mean how they're good together yeah so you're right so so if you I mean this was based on a narrow anarchist idea right and this have made all this possible and I can completely understand that as soon as as let's say business or governments kick in this is this is something that might not correspond to the original idea of of the core blockchain enthusiasts and I out completely understand that but at the same time it's a reality right and you have to tackle with reality for example regulation is a very good

example of how reality kicks in if you start to collect money from people so-called investors in the old world you have a certain responsibility to fulfill and when and and if you don't take this seriously I'm not saying that the space doesn't take this responsibility seriously but you have to be aware of that responsibility you because you are collecting money from other people and you're promising to deliver something and so so this is just natural that at some point regulation will kick in now your question was how how does this

original idea and and and the concept and the people that represent the the core idea of a blockchain how does this match with a task force what you have to understand is what we are doing with the task force is we're trying to regulate as few as possible if you want to have the the idea of the task force is to have as less regulation as possible as much self-regulation as possible at the same time and this is actually the

current mindset of the regulator of the of the government if you look at it it's it's a very it's a very a very easy situation when it comes to regulation at the moment here in Switzerland so I think even the core community profits from the current situation the con situation being disliked touch yes it is this light regulation there's this this this FEMA guidelines with the categories and and for example we one of the results of the task force was a token

map and this token max takes into account the community and the the teams they will come up with new tokens every day new token aspects right so and this is a great thing but you have you have to be aware as a regulator and everybody else involved in this space that this will change and evolve quickly and everyday but the regulator has a different take on that he needs to categorize that and then the investors they have another take as well because they they look at things from a risk perspective so they need a different kind of approach on how

a token is designed and bringing all these three things together this is what we are going to do and currently working on so that if you as a designer of a token or of a start-up define the aspects of your token you will know in what category you are going to end up regarding the regulatory framework so for example this is helpful because regulation is there and this can be a good tool for the community including those that think we don't want to be touched by anybody else right mm-hmm

do you have these discussions I mean it seems to me that here in Switzerland everybody's pretty amicable you know there's not too it's not very not a very confrontational spirit yes is that also your experience yes that's what I say when it comes to them to this consensus in the DNA this is really this is really that's a strong pro in my in my opinion of the Swiss society that you discuss things and you try to find a solution for these um for these circumstances but III experienced this as well right so I of course I have we have people that probably think that we are not radical

enough when it comes to them how how you could structure or how you could not structure the regulatory environment and then completely understand and there are voices that say this is not good for the community or this is maybe not the right direction but what what I think is what we all have in common is to to foster this ecosystem and and to make this grow and and to support it you know we all have the same in mind and and we are in open discussions we have you know there is there's there's actually there's lots

of people that are in my opinion core enthusiast core boxing enthusiast that are working with us maybe not in the task force but they are influencing on different levels and and they give in percent the dialogue is is is going on I I see I don't I don't see it as a problem in my opinion very good Matthias I mean you have so much experience as an entrepreneur yourself then as an investor I mean as an angel investment early stage and now you have all this you know you're bringing the ecosystem together here in Switzerland for blockchain technology and and crypto who in all this work who are your role models who are my role models I never

had due to the fact that I've started to become an entrepreneur at a young age so during university or even before I never actually had a mentor or something like that so I didn't have a person that would guide me through professional life or something like that so um there's pros and cons to being such a person right so because in the beginning you asked if I would listen if I ever if I always listened to the two people around me and of course I didn't right so I didn't have this this this this kind of of a mentor that I would look up to and

that he would advise me on things he or she so I didn't have that so I didn't actually have a role model you know I've just become a father of two two fantastic girls two one four years old and when you when you when you start to become a parent and a dad you you start to understand what your parents did for you and you know if I had a role model it would be my parents but not in a in an entrepreneurial way they were not in for entrepreneurs what is maybe a wish that you have for this whole space for the for the future I think it would be great if Switzerland could unite on a

vision and everybody could help support this vision and if you could come up with a vision that would say I I keep saying Switzerland doesn't need to be the blockchain hub for all the projects out there you know switchin might not be the most progressive jurisdiction it might not be the most even might not be the most creative one right so but I think there there are going to be certain use cases that will be perfect for Switzerland just the way Switzerland is and and has its position in a global context and if this vision could be

let's say a high quality hub for blockchain projects or something like that it will be great if everybody could work towards this vision and and even the core people could work with the pom you know the government and everybody would say okay let's try to make this vision a reality and we're working on that and I think we're even heading headed toward some this some this vision because I really think the opportunity to you know also to create a different next level financial ecosystem based on trust this could be

this could be one vision force whitson but then also for the technology itself it could become a hub of expertise of knowledge of experience that could lay a framework a foundation for many many many projects and and ideas to come it could be good also it could also work as a initiator of frameworks of different framers for different use cases that could then be adapted and taken further by other countries and and jurisdictions

and people but it but because Switzerland has this really unique set up and and decentralized mindset I think it could be ideal in providing the bottom layer of a lot of applications and protocols a launch a launch pad a lot yeah why not yes I think so well I wish you all the best I hope it becomes a reality very soon and I really appreciate your insight and your openness about all these topics it was very very interesting so thanks a lot for taking time today thank you what's my pleasure thanks so much for

joining us today more info on our guests and our sponsors is in the show notes of this episode and on the podcast website the blockchain and us comm to help people find this podcast it's important that you download subscribe and give it a top rating and review on iTunes or on the podcast platform of your choice I'm Manuel staggers and I thank you very much for listening [Music]