A Founder’s Mindset, DePIN’s Breakthrough, and Stablecoin Models | Roundup

Transcript

it what does it matter like who's being hurt here actually people are losing out on the amount of interest that they could be earning you know what I mean right like they're taking a risk there is a risk by holding the stable coin you have to believe in the proof of reserves they could deeg as it has in the past so the consumer that holds usdc is taking risk anyone that holds a stable coin is taking some degree of risk and they're being shafted because they're not earning any of that or very little of that yield this episode is brought to you by anoma the universal intent machine introducing a new era of applications where you define the outcomes you want to stay up to date with aoma you can

follow them at x.com anoma or sign up for the newsletter at ana. net special thanks to anoma for sponsoring today's episode let's face it building on crowded l1s or expensive l2s is just not going to unlock the Next Generation of applications super containers offers dedicated customizable app spaces running on supra's 500 ktps layer one blockchain giving you complete control over gas tokens and fees get notified when super containers are ready for Builders at super.com containers and we're live what's up STI

I not much how's it going great just finished our um our uh we do a monthly all hands with the company and we have I think 75 people now somewhere between 703 to 77 people and so there's a lot of new faces so did a little like uh you know what do we what like what are we all doing here like what's the mission of block Works what are we building and yeah where are we rowing where are we rowing are we rowing in sync in the same direction we going in the same direction so for this round up but because I was doing a lot of prep for the for the kickoff but I'm excited to be here did you ever think you'd uh have 75 people

um you know I never thought blockworks would get this big but it's I I pre- blockworks I always wanted to do this this was like like when say that again you never thought blockwork was get this big so why did you do it in the first place when we when we launched blockworks it was not this there was no Grand Vision when we launch block works like we didn't sit down and we're like we weren't like okay one day we're going to IPO and one day we're going to build this massive company it was it was literally built out of a hey we were going to these scammy crypto events in New York we thought that there was a better way to build crypto events in New York we just wanted some like events that felt more institutional less scammy um we're like let's go host some events

I think we can make some money and like build build like solve solve a very small need here um I I actually think that a lot of founder stories like I know you're listening to uh the founders podcast right now I was going to jump into that I actually think a lot of the founder the the like big mythical stories of like this founder sat down and they had this Grand Vision I think a lot of those are um uh kind of become mythology like later later on and if you actually if you actually talk to a lot of Founders and you get them to open up and be very honest about things I I don't I think most of the the best companies and the biggest companies there was no massive Grand Vision it was like just something small trying to put one foot

in front of the other from day one and then you do that long enough year after year after year after year and it before you know it you open your eyes and it and it and it's something big but you have to believe that it can be big at some point otherwise why would you do it because you have a high opportunity ah okay there was yes there was the okay I see what you're saying there was a belief that this would be big one day yes yes like day one you probably sat there both of you you left your jobs you're not you went to good school you have other opportunities looked and said we can build the Bloomberg of crypto this industry is going to grow we can build the premier media organization this can be big so from day one that's not actually how it went we

there was a whiteboard and we wrote at the bottom like I think we can make 100k from this there was no there was no Bloomberg of crypto that came years into it when we realized um the extent of like the the problem that I think we were solving like we it was originally we are trying to build better events in New York City and I was like oh actually the whole industry kind of needs better institutional events oh maybe the space needs podcast too and like better information oh wait maybe the space needs research too oh and it sounds like it looks like this industry needs better news oh we're building what feels and looks like the Bloomberg of digital assets and the time was it out of for

like a better term desperation did you have other options or was it just I have I don't like I don't like my job I I actually loved my job I actually wanted to build a data a crypto data company inside of I was at a data analytics company and I was pitching them on building actually what kind of looks like a Kao or Amber data um or coin metrics type of business inside of the data company it was a company called cense they competed with like Tableau and powerbi and looker and actually micro strategy too is like the data analytics world and so I wanted to stay at the job they didn't want to do crypto and they didn't want to do like blockchain data stuff and so that pushed me into going and launching blockworks

but like even if just to the the the original point of like lack of a Grand Vision if you talk to like if you hear Brian chesky talk about Airbnb now what is Airbnb trying to do they're trying to like solve I actually don't know their mission statement but it's probably some Grand big thing about like hospit hospitality and experiences and like improving The Human Experience via like staying at places and human connection at the beginning I think they were just trying to make a Dollar by I think they were they selling cial boxes in the DNC like yeah and they were trying to like give people a place to stay during the DNC in San Francisco or something but I and maybe you're right look I mean I we tend to glorify these Founders and the success of them and we

fit a narrative after they were successful to make it sound like this sort of fairy tale of sorts you kind of get the feel but I don't know like I I do feel that like in order to stay very motivated and driven like the certain purpose and like when maybe it's just different but um like for me for instance I decided to leave my job and invest full-time and then ended up joining Pari like in those moments I appreciate like you know you take a pay cut you compromise on things because you believe in the

opportunity so I'm not I'm not sure we're like disagreeing but I'm just I want to like really understand like you you ought to have believed that there was a huge opportunity because you're interested in crypto you're building a service around it or or you're just or you're just more satisfied in you know driving utility pleasure out of like building so I don't know I believe so my I I believed there was a there was a big business to be built here but I think there's a I think a lot of the Grand Vision stuff comes later in a Founder's life when they realize that it's actually easier to motivate other people and easier to motivate yourself with a big vision and actually trying to accomplish something

incredibly difficult is often times easier than accomplishing something hard because if we were going out trying to hire people and trying to raise money or trying to whatever it was uh and we were saying hey we're going to um we're going to build better events in New York City we're not getting the best talent we're not hiring the best talent we're not keeping people we're not giving them Equity packages that they believe in we're not raising money right but when you start and we're not also we're not motivating ourselves too like that's not a very motivating thing but when you start dreaming bigger you actually I think make your life easier but what I'm saying is like you know was 23 when we launched blockworks there's a naive to being 23 and building our first business

this is you know my first like real business where I was just like I we just need to survive like we just we just literally need to make you know we we were paying our employees on venmo because we didn't know how to set up a payroll system like it was it was so Bare Bones that it felt uh it felt like where we're at today even though we thought we could achieve it in our subconscious it was like so out of our wildest dreams that it was it was tough to think about yeah I think dreaming big is not incompatible with doing day-to-day stuff to survive yeah but I do think that dreaming big is a prerequisite combined with a naive naive of not understanding how difficult it's going to be to go at

it yes but you have to have the focus of the day-to-day like often times and I've been Ju supposing a lot of what I've heard and been hearing in the founders podcast with my portfolio and my interactions with Founders and I I I see that like I think the Hallmark of a good founder I'd be curious to get your perspective is he believes in something big but is extremely focused in the real time present surviving most of them have like on the daily near traumatic like death experiences but they're focused in the day-to-day yeah if that makes sense I I agree with that there's actually a book

called um only the paranoid Survive by Andy Grove which is like IBM uh Intel Intel Intel great book yeah um I mean just crazy stories like there was a moment in time when he realized they had to Pivot he laid off I think they had like three or four thousand employees he laid off 98% of the company and pivoted the company I'm sure I'm botching that story a little bit but like the the guts that it takes to do that is you know most most Founders would be like maybe we'll cut like 10% of the company it's like you I mean the the conviction there is real but yeah I mean we we also like I remember sitting with this early adviser that we had who tried to get like 35% of the company and it ended up we didn't end up building a relationship with that guy

but like we we we told he's like what's your dream we're like we want to overtake coin uh coindesk we were it was there it is it was it was Mike and I and we're like but we don't think that's like that's so that's like like they have at the time they had 165 employees and we had zero employees and he's like you just need to put their face on a bulle board and like they're the 800 pound gorilla and you need to carve out a super specific Niche and you need to win that Niche and then you can expand to a slightly broader Niche and a slightly broader Niche and before you know it like as long as you can survive you will chip away at their lead and I think I mean it took way longer than we

thought but like seven years in I feel confident saying we have like that's not the the company on the bulletin board anymore yeah yeah you have to survive I mean I think that's every time and time again I mean David from Founders podcast like just you just have to survive really you really just have to survive and a lot of times your competitors will just do things that compromise their ability to survive and if you are there in a position of strength you can capitalize on that in a very meaningful way it go ahead well I've been asking this question to Founders and just people that I've come across as like at what point did you know you were a builder did you ever see yourself as a builder cuz I I I found myself telling myself you're not a builder I'm an investor uh like constantly thinking

okay what's my Edge and if I'm investing what's my Edge as an investor which is also really hard to answer because again you get into discussions of how much of of it is luck how much of it is skill and I appreciate in entrepreneurship there's also an element of luck but I'm curious in your Evolution as a as a Founder like when did it actually click or when did you believe that you were a builder I mean for me it was I was probably 10 years old like I this is the only thing I wanted to do is go build I never had a dream of working of in you know a lot of people you meet in college they go to the business school and then they want to go work in Investment Banking and then they were on work in

finance scene yeah yeah want to work at JP Morgan this prestigious place and then okay that's what a lot of my friends did they did IB for two years then they did PE for a couple years and then you know maybe they go to more Boutique firm and something like they they followed that track and and they're crushing it and it's great it never it was never of interest to me the the money aspect was never the interest and I think a lot of it is now no it's really not now I think that you need a basic amount of money to be a little more calm and be able to take big risks in life but and and without that it actually gets tough to take those risks but no it's like it's the idea of

building something and getting something off the ground and then scaling it like that is just the the thing I could do for the rest of my life um there's a there's a I think a framework you can use to think about this which is like okay it's the end of a day it's like a Tuesday it's like a normal Tuesday in October you end the day long day meetings calls doing [ __ ] someone says son how's your day say great day there are two types of people people who say it was a great day I learned so much I had the most interesting conversations with people um like the ideas that I I'm kind of like processing these ideas from today that's that's one group of people those people actually oftentimes make

the best investors I would say there's another group of people which is it was a great day I got so much [ __ ] done I got so much done I bulldozed through these big projects I knocked like 15 things off my to-do list and I made a lot of progress thinking through like this launch strategy this new product that those people oftentimes make the best Founders I would say and it's not one for one it's not it's not a perfect correlation but that's I I've started to to notice that in talking to different people yeah what do you think you are uh I'm an investor but I've opened up to the idea of being a builder I mean ultimately Peri we we built an

organ like we built a franchise we built a team we're certainly they're much more Nimble teams and very quantifiable you know you hire an analyst you hire someone into the organization if they're not performing like it's very clear like the attribution piece is is easier so but I've had like I started the reason why I became ined investing was uh I started a tutoring business in high school I was tutting all my friends and I was like oh this is great got me thinking if I want to sell this business a can ever get big enough because it's constrained by number of hours in the day you know it's a business that doesn't scale uh exponentially and that was the big aha moment in my

understanding of the power of technology and really trying to do everything to work less and make technology work for me and allow business to scale but I've opened up to the idea of being a builder again looking at my portfolio I've often often found myself working a lot with Founders and it is unclear to me why I couldn't do it in a better capacity um and I just think the quality builders in crypto hasn't been as strong yeah and the opportunity is really big and that's why some teams have been successful I think yeah because it's Market has just grown a lot and if you're in the right narrative area you can really capitalize and I'm not

diminishing by the way um because I've been on the investing side but yeah it's just been a combination of things that uh I've I've said differently I I've opened up to the idea of building something if I'm going to launch this private Equity Fund which I'm going through right now that is building it's still investing but it's building right you have to inspire people to join both investors and uh people in the team whoever I hire and I think that there's there's I I guess I'll say I would have thought before that the if you think of two circles one as a the skill set for an investor the skill set of a Founder I would have thought that there would be limited little overlap and now I'm of the mind that these two circles are very

concentric and like the the surface area between these two skill sets is actually greater than what I initially thought so do you think of you know Ben foran for from parfi as a Founder do you think of a Vil at electric as a think of but dragonfly as a absolutely because they need to inspire again you just said it you need to inspire other people to believe in your mission as a as a builder you need a you need I think the best Founders hire exceptionally well fire also exceptionally well um and you need to motivate and inspire people to get the best out of them yeah and I think in investing it's similar to that right if you don't have any money to

invest and so you need to convince um potential LPS you also need to bring in really smart people within the organization and so absolutely they're Builders so do you think that let's let's uh who are some do you think Ray Delio Henry kvis um you know Mark Rowan are they as good of Founders as the Evans Spiegel Zuckerberg's of the world why not yes if you can compound and deliver above average market returns for in think about how competitive the industry is and if

you're able to build an organization that delivers above average above Market average returns for a sustained period of time you've built an exceptional organization and I think that skill seted is very much of a builder um we don't talk about it enough but like Ray ALU you could think about the way that he sort of pioneered radical transparency within an organization that's a key Insight that he had and it works it's difficult you could argue that it's somewhat similar to how Bezos constructed the culture in Amazon which is ruthless cander search for Truth uh so yeah again the similar skill

set one probably gets probably more credit um um well actually I don't know but certainly in crypto we do hear like oh these VCS don't build anything I'm like you are very mistak well and in traditional Capital like no I don't like people don't really think of the founders of a like Leon BL black and uh you know Mark as Founders they think of them as like brilliant investors who built Apollo or you know Henry KKR like I don't think he gets bucketed as a Founder um I think they are I the managerial maybe dayto day is less intensive perhaps but you know Peri had I really admire Ben because he was very good at that like he you know

and I'm not as good at like I would in a vacuum with just 100% of my time just want to read don't not bothered I need to think but you have to you know you you know what I mean like I don't think of myself as autistic but I do like my alone time to do like thinking um but when you meet with the heads of these firms private Equity firms or hedge funds I think a lot of their time is spent actually doing internal stuff fundrais or selling it's it's with people it's externally with people it's IR it's internal yeah you know it's funny because as the building a company is a game of

Leverage because the more PE you're you know initially you start out doing everything yourself and then you're like oh [ __ ] I need more people because I need Le I need leverage to go you know the more leverage you have the more of an impact you can start to make so then you start hiring people and you get really good employees and talent and people join your company and that you get more and more leverage and then if you extend that out right block Works let's say I think we have 75 people today let's say blockworks had 75,000 people what is your job at that point you're basically an allocator of capital like if you if you run IBM today or resources or yeah yeah if run IBM you are an allocator of capital and resources if you run uh KKR or fund you are an allocator

of capital so both internal and external yeah yeah yeah yeah so that's anyways it may not seem like a big Insight but I've been thinking a lot about that because you know I'm like well why why not right why why can't I be a builder and so I've been like re I've been thinking about that and of course it helps you know you you can't help you can't but be inspired listening to Founders podcast and hearing this incredible stories and I think he does a really good while I do agree with you that we tend to perhaps overfit a narrative Focus too much on a person not an organization and you know history the way it's sort of constructed is very much in hindsight but like I still

believe that it's just really interesting that I think he does a really good job of grounding it and laying out very like realistic picture of like how a lot of these companies that are now giants like went through near death experiences and they were very fragile and trials and tribulations of these Founders and I I think it was um it very refreshing to hear yeah um how's your idea going good I've been spending a lot of time talking to Founders within the portfolio that I can actually support by having this fund um as opposed to thinking of a particular fund size I'm more interested in can I identify three or four companies and then inverting that way and then saying okay um this is

the type of fund and uh and we're going after these type of companies so being more specific so I still need to do more work but it's really fun yeah nice um how's October Fest oh I should have started there I so if we can pause if we can pause I can actually go and dress with this thing that I got which is traditional like oh we don't need you to dress hold on oh but I have it here the the there it is hold on hold on hold on give me one sec oh let's zoom in on this guy oh look at that well listen I got so we um shout

out uh Simon is uh to my left he is a founder of moon raw Capital excellent guys actually I never met Simon in person to my right is the founder of of of archium which is uh um crypto like a it started as a privacy protocol it's now more like focused on um private compute um built on Solano so really smart guys actually they're coming up with some really interesting announcements so anyways I was supposed to catch up with him on Singapore um and and he we couldn't and then he's like literally two seats next to me in the flight back I flew Singapore Munich and we're catching up like what are you doing on Monday and this was Tuesday we

flew back Tuesday Monday night I'm like I don't know man like you want to come to October Fest and I've always wanted to go but I'm not I'm like listen I'm not much of a drinker and he's like oh just come you know it's gonna be a great time I was like listen if if there's ever a time to do it I might as well do it with locals so all these guys are based in Munich so that you have like most of the actually all the moon rock team and the Arkam team a lot of the Aram team what a squad so where didd you get this so hilarious I get there we get grab dinner the night before it's like Monday right it's like random but it happens over I believe uh 14 days or like three weeks so anyways uh it's always on which is

crazy so they're like we made an appointment in this department store it was like next to my hotel I go and it's like there's all kinds of flavors you know as you can see there's like different colors of the of the shorts and then is a it's a a leader housing is that what it's called yes correct right uh here incredible you guys look good it's good outfit you so you don't usually drink right so did you did you drink I definitely did as I told uh this guy's like just one beer bro yeah right you know we it was not just one it was by the way these are like J I've been there some big boy beers yeah so the first beer of course

was diluted with like sparkling water so that you know that was good and then after that there was no more dilution we just went at it um we ended up fairly late it was a great experience honestly I sort of was like I'm going to embrace it I'm I'm gonna do it right I can't just be that guy that doesn't drink so um I live I I they they'll have to come on and you know attest to this but I think I did it correct corre it was a proper October they're um they're they're uh quietly building one of the best funds in Europe I would say they're doing they're doing a great job you know funny because I posted this picture right as

we were headed to October Fest and Mike from geonet ping me said hey I've heard great things about the moon rock guys can you they've done really good work for the so and so portfolio company and know you mind connecting with them I was immediately connect them but yeah you're right we're very much focus on the same um kind of sectors and opportunities um good people all right pivot to a different thing okay this one he said I got a rare watch allocation with a dealer I've never bought from and have invested little time building a relationship we've either bought themed or going way lower I was this a do do you actually think that this is a signal of anything yes yeah yeah for sure I mean you I so the secondary the

secondary watch Market collapsed um right in line with like Falls like crypto prices and just General market uh but just like the excess liquidity in the market like when people are making easy money or whatever like the the the premium from across Rolex pek AP FP jint whatever was just 23x right there you go a lot of these prices like have really come down um and so that like if I track a couple things the Delta between the primary so like the the retail price and the secondary market and how that behaves across the board by the way like you would have thought that like you know on the margin like certain PEX like vintage peks have held up better than like more modern ones like Nautilus and aquanuts Rolex

has certainly taking a hit but you know you could have said you know Rolex for instance produces like 1.1 million watches per year pek I think produces 58,000 62,000 but even then like um it's just the liquidity just dried up and it's been a pretty down only Market from there uh over the last couple of years you think now is a good time to buy a watch I bought a watch today let's put it that way did you did you buy this rare watch no it's relics I don't collect relics but this was a absolute Grail like you know at this point you want to say what it is or no no no all right fine at this point my criteria is like when I started collecting I wanted to collect like 12 14 type watches that were on my list and I very quickly did

that I sort I absolutely TI the like the absolute top for a lot of these like the highest price recorded for some of these watches but again like nfts I don't consider them an investment yeah doesn't compute yeah you're just holding them for your life and you'll pass them down to your kids and stuff yeah I probably should do a better way to like be more patient whatever but anyways I didn't um but this one I actually bought Below Retail nice nice yeah it's a it's a Grail I think nice I'll show it to you all right um last plug for permissionless sad we uh we have permission list next week this is the last plug um we've got a code it's y 30 tickets are ripping we just had like back to back to back

biggest ticket sale days ever um my life is not stressful at all because 50% of permissionless ticket sales come in in the nine months before the event and then 50% come in in the last couple of weeks so it's re makes my life really fun um yeah gonna be a great yeah I mean um well let's talk a little bit about that how many people because um sadly won't be going how many people are going um it's really tough to tell but we have a it's probably going to be like somewhere between well it's tough it's tough to tell how many people will actually go to the event versus just like go to Salt Lake for example Singapore like 20,000 people went to token and then roughly 50 to 80,000 actually went to Singapore so for Salt Lake I'd guess we'll have

like for probably three or four thousand at permissionless um and then maybe like five six seven 8,000 kind of descend on the city wow is that normal that ratio yeah it's pretty normal like mainnet was this week I went to mainnet on Wednesday moderated a thing with Mike from pith um not many people at the event um but like a lot of people in town for mainnet yeah got it yeah come to permission list we got a code for you Yano 30 that's all you got see you next week what are the I guess what are they going to be what are you most excited about in the conference or there there go speakers I know there's certainly the election is front and

center all the Deb have happened right so there's no more debates so but there will be key Representatives coming on right yeah we've got um so actually if you look at the if you go on our site and you look at the speakers we've got a pretty a lot of political speakers there's um we just got the first Senator to ever speak at a blockworks event Senator Mike Lee um uh Senator Mike Lee who's gonna be probably a pretty influential person if Trump ends up winning um he's the one of the senators from Utah we've got uh John Curtis who's uh in in the house right now but he's most likely going to win to be the second senator in uh Utah taking Mitt Romney's seat we've got Richie Torres who's been doing some great work

recently we've got Tom Emer um I'm very excited to hear Samara Cohen's chat she's the CIO of Black Rock cioo of the ETF business at Black Rock Paul there from coinbase who is a great person to follow on Twitter yeah we've got uh Paul greywall from from coinbase um and then we've got like a lot of the protocol Founders so Keon and Sham and Pac-Man and uh Harry from arbitrum and uh Kane and Brian from L zero and like just a whole bunch of great folks but there's actually a couple speakers who rarely do public appearances like Devin finser the CEO of open SE like I haven't heard from Devon in years so like I'm you know we have a panel it's uh

Pacman and Devin finser and Luca from pudgy yeah penguins and I think it's gonna be a pretty spicy one so like I'm I'm excited for chats like that that's great yeah I'm excited for Kane and David Hoffman's fight that's gonna be good oh yeah what's the prediction Market at now we showed it last time I think it was like Kane uh 66% or something like that Kane has not been uh they're all tra you know trash talking each other Kane uploaded a video of him like doing training oh really that hasn't changed much hasn't changed when we record I mean there's there's no volume like when we recorded it was like six and six and change thousand volume now you're like basically at 11,000 so

very thinly traded not doing so hot on my Eric Adams trade wait what was that will Eric Adams be out as mayor before 2025 oh okay I I bet I bet yes and I'm down 40% yeah you got our main objective with these things right it's like what you want to happs credibly thinking happen doing betting on New York politics I have no idea you love politics what do you yeah yeah um by the way I mean speaking of interactive brokers like everyone's not launching a prediction market like now I believe it was interactive brokers that

today came out with um like presidential betting and there was CAU like they came out saying that it was finally legal I think here yeah K Ki KI won a big thing yeah exactly so anyways it's uh pretty encouraging how this is It's funny because Ki feels like a crypto company but they're not no but they had they had trouble with the cfdc I think initially right it's backed by SEO I believe like very heavily funded hey everyone Jason here I wanted to talk about something that's been on my mind a lot recently and that is where are all of crypto's killer apps we often ask this question on the show so I'm excited to tell you about Empire latest

partner anoma the universal intent machine intents are a new way to build daps enabling users to say what they want without needing to specify how it's done let's say you have an nft on one chain but you want to swap it for a token on another chain to make things even worse you also don't know which bridge to trust or how to navigate different dexes on each chain disaster right but here's the good news thanks to intense you can just tell the app what you want to do and a noma's solver Network takes care of all the complexity in the background we're excited to see what cool daps anoma's architecture will unlock to stay up to date with anoma you can follow them at x.com anoma or sign up for the newsletter at ana. net

special thanks to anoma for sponsoring today's episode let's face it building on crowded l1s or expensive l2s is just not going to unlock the next generation of applications in crypto that's where super containers come in offering a completely new solution that transforms your development control imagine dedicated customizable app spaces running on supra's 500 ktps layer one blockchain you get complete control over gas tokens and fees with the freedom to use your own token create local fee markets or even go gasless scale on demand and build with better customization than app chains all at a fraction of the cost plus with multi-m compatibility you can easily deploy your

evm move and svm smart contracts it's time to rescue your projects from the costs complexities and fragmentation of traditional Solutions get notified when super containers are ready for Builders at super.com containers US presidential election markets are legal officially finally K she prevails yeah nice um yeah they took on the cftc so that's impressive all right let's get to some fun stuff all right you tweeted out dpin and payments will take off in salana I actually would love for you to flash me back to what defi I think Jason Troy tweeted out dpin is defi in 2019 I would love for you to flash me

back to like what defi felt like in 2019 because a lot a lot of people don't know this you actually approached me to you and Ben approached Mike and I to launch a defi podcast in I think it was late 2019 and Mike and I said no because we didn't think that anything was happening in defi we're like this Market's way too small nobody cares about defi seven months later defi summer took off you guys were Vindicated obviously that would have been a good podcast um I'd be curious to get your take on like what defi actually felt like in 2019 uh so the thing that gave me the most amount of conviction was maker having

survived as the backbone allowing people to basically be this like Al Al like this bank that allow you to in a very seamless automatic manner deposit eth get back a stable coin called die with a single collateral die backed by eth this all like coincided with eth the value of the collateral collapsing 80 plus% 90% from the top and die maintaining its Peg and so to me I I looked at that and I said okay well this is really interesting um and I met reference maker

because that was quite literally the only thing around and that is the backbone or like for for Defi and so then of course like you know you had the Legacy protocols a synthetics compound of dis raay around so you know things were kind of gearing up and people are getting paying more and more attention um but it was really this idea that maker had provided a very valuable resource to people that had a eth didn't want to sell it as prices came down but could borrow against it and that was that was pretty awesome actually that mechanism was profound it still is and then it was like a things like really

moved compound launch liquidity Mining and then like things just really accelerated but the analogy that I draw and I know analog I are not perfect but I sort of see helium in that in that what maker did for defi I think helium is doing for deep in because it is making crypto incredibly relatable it is I'm looking at carrier offloading stats we showed in the last pod as a very strong proof Point um that this is real it's working it's getting usage and I I get more excited about deepen that I may be overly excited because it's it's

like it's so tangible it's so real that you could argue that stable coins you know there's some good you know stable coin usage was like very interesting and you heard like anecdotally that it was being used in places like Argentina and whatnot but it just um Finance is one of those things that you don't people don't check their bank account like 23 times a day you know what I mean uh it it's uh you know Finance is not something that Everyone likes to think about on a daily basis but deepen on the contrary I think is one of those things that is so very much tangible and I I get really excited about that like you can't said to me for the first time ever I can go to someone that is

skeptical of crypto or doesn't care about it and say hey what here's helium same data same plan fraction of the cost you can use whatever phone you want like why wouldn't you use it and and that's a Hallmark of some really you know some really good Tech and so is it perfect or the tokenomics perfect I don't know but I would never fade a product that is getting usage and as more and more carrier offloading happens I think that's a really strong signal what would you and the best Founders I backed by the way in the last cohort the last 10 founders

a lot of them are deep in because I'm very focused on that Neil Mike Neil from andrina Mike from geonet uh Brandon from Zar um who just kind of came out at stealth and and breakpoint yeah they're all very experienced founders with web to Deep Web to experience and just appreciate how deepen elements can really transform their business yeah and that's kind of like the thesis that I have for the private Equity Fund that I want to build which is the exact same transformation a lot of businesses are challenged have friction points you can introduce crypto elements and I'm not thinking about a

token some are but I'm not to streamline operations or to enhance the growth of a particular protocol to introduce Capital efficiency y ya Y and like you know I I I don't know if that answer the question but I actually um yeah I think deep in is like the what email did for the internet in 2000 early 2000s yeah yeah I bet I would recommend people go listen to three three episodes if they want to learn a little bit more about what you're talking about here there was the um we did an episode called why air rights are trading on crypto rails with um with uh Jonathan from Sky trade from Sky yeah we did um uh uh how crypto fixes the internet

Monopoly with Neil from yeah yeah um and then we did Mike from gonet oh we did Mike yeah mik with coin uh with what's uh forget his name from coin fund yeah um look I'm an investor in all three uh again I want to be I'm not in the business of burning money uh so uh I I I do I do get very excited about these and I think we're just scratching the surface uh of what will come but you know like I think helium is probably um the more important deep in protocol right now yeah um by the way we got a there I

there every we all the time we try to take people's feedback and actually incorporate it so we got feedback that um we need to do better disclosures like we need to actually because we have a little disclosure thing at the front but actually we just built we just built this and launched it so if anybody wants to see um what anybody at blockworks holds we just launched our this disclosures page on blockworks so you can literally just Google blockworks disclosures and you can see our every employee so or anyone who creates content um any material Holdings which is $5,000 or more there's anyone on editorial wait wait hold on oh wow

yeah there's any our entire reseearch annal this team uh so you can see like oh okay so you see that Picacho who's the host of the zerx research podcast is like talking about like you know something and you're all upset that it's like oh well I don't know if he holds this or not well now you can actually see and we update it monthly what they actually hold and you can see the nfts you can see the crypto equities and then we've got the podcast host too um you can see our exec team podcast hosts you can see research you can see reporters um so just a a new blockworks resource resource I guess I'm not there but well we we don't do it with external hosts like we we're not asking like mert or you to do it but um I will make a point anytime and I

think I've done this forever yeah I think I think you make a point almost immediately I'll tell you if I have a position um and heal him I don't yeah right all right there was there was another tweet that you posted about um Bitcoin so maybe I can do an abbreviated version for folks and then I'd love to hear you uh actually expand on this so your post basically said uh Bitcoin is an asset that takes more than 10 years to really play out uh the thing about Bitcoin is that it people don't have the patience right it is an OP it is basically a call option for a chaotic world it is a call option I think as you said for a scenario where things turn South it's a it's an insurance of sorts and your post kind of outlined uh your

you're thinking here so I'd love to hear you just talk about um you know we talk about dpin and and l1s and l2s like what are your your your what is your current working thesis around Bitcoin yeah well I saw if you could scroll down I saw Zero Hedge tweet something to the effect of like bitcoin's not doing its job it's not a safe haven like it is volatile like I get it Gold's been tearing and Bitcoin is you know just a younger asset um and has a lot of all you could argue that it trades in line with M2 like I think the chart with M2 is uh very very correlated um but I I still don't think that sort of like the difference between near term and longterm like I think the what is interesting about Bitcoin is

that it forces you to kind of think about in What scenario does this actually work and it's one where things really uh turn South and you know I it's sort of a combination of things I think it's like some amount of Bitcoin could serve as an insurance um it's it's like very low priced credit default swaps like that would be the analogy like you know Paulson and Michael bur right like it is in a scenario where things really blow up Bitcoin may you know really take off then and there we haven't we just haven't seen that scenario right Bitcoin as an asset has

become more and more accepted um it's you know not small but any stret to the imagination over one trillion um it's been talked about it's central banks hold it but I guess the question is like everyone agrees so a couple things everyone agrees that the financial situation the uh you know monetary policies untenable like the fiscal situation of the US government other governments around the world is untenable like the you know the percentage of the budget that goes to servicing um debt is is keeps growing they're running huge deficits like in a normal company that they would have gone bankrupt um if you're uh not the us if you're Greece Argentina any other country like you would have

hyperinflation your currency would like totally um you know go to [ __ ] but the US is like it sort of like continues to be the safe haven right it's like it is the world's Reserve asset so a lot of the allocators I've talk to it's like okay what usse do I buy like it's just like we sort of accept the fact that this is untenable but at the same time we're just going to invest to beat inflation and that's fine but I think like the thesis for Bitcoin is you hold some amount because if things if the dollar were were to deeg or really take a [ __ ] then I think Bitcoin really catches a bid then and there uh and then the last point I made was like I don't think you need to believe that that full extreme scenario plays out to build a conviction around

Bitcoin I just think that you know from a funds flow perspective like what do you think is like it's just starting from a much lower base so like from a percentage basis of of you know you're seeing central banks increase their uh allocation to especially starting when Russia and the Ukraine conflict started we have more instability happening now in the Middle East so like it's just more of a question like you know more central banks may want to the probability of Bitcoin becoming more relevant and interesting as something that should serve in your portfolio for this type of scenario I think keeps going up anytime Bitcoin continues to exist I think that

probability goes up um for central banks and then institutions yeah well the first that so you were quote tweeting zeroedge the first problem with zero Hedges chart was that it was an hourly chart uh Bitcoin I think for a very long time is going to because it trades on the weekend and it's a macro asset that has made its way onto the screens of CNBC and onto the Bloomberg Terminals and onto the trading platforms of these folks it's always going to be the first mover I think on the weekends like if it's after hours or on the weekends it's the first thing when you know traded down on Geo like geopolitical Risk over the week uh over the I think it was after hours um like it I I I think it will perform like that for a long time

um the thing about Bitcoin is you have any any moment in time when someone loses trust in governments or Banks or institutions um the March 2023 banking crisis the Canadian truck standoff uh the Cypress banking crisis from a while uh currency debasements bit Bitcoin tends to move higher so that's my kind of like that's how both of these things can be true Bitcoin can go down in a geopolitical crisis because it's the most liquid asset it's the most liquid asset because it is not because it is the biggest Market but because it's available 247 365 and it can also go higher when people lose trust in institutions that's my working thesis I

I agree with you I think the again gold is just social consensus store value like it's not a very good semiconductor it doesn't have a lot of industrial applications it's used and like a lot of it is comes from like wedding season in India drives a huge amount of the demand for gold it's crazy um but like you know it's it's taken centuries to aify as a kind of like store value like this social consensus uh Bitcoin might achieve that far faster because you could argue that the world is more connected and so this ideas like percolate faster but I do still think that it may take time my point is um the percent that is allocated to bitcoin I

think grows and this idea of it becoming a a social like a store of value um becomes stronger by the day yeah and quite literally it is a better you could argue it's a better store value with uh the same properties of you go read you know the Bitcoin standard I don't need to go into a lot of that detail but even if you don't truly understand Austrian economics or whatever I think you can agree that holding a lot of your money in Bitcoin um could serve its purpose in a scenario where things you know become very murky or or challenged right and it's not a hedge to a market crash it's a hedge

to local it's a hedge to Banks and governments and institutions harming your assets in in one way or another basically correct and and I guess you could you could say well about stable coins and again yes true like I think a lot of the you know I'm not here to say that like people might fully appreciate the censorship or lack thereof of some stable coins but um there may come a time where Bitcoin becomes true store value censorship resistant easily transported easily exchanged and that's pretty powerful yeah so yeah I I to me that's like the it's the ultimate meme coin and what is

it to stop it from going to 100 to 200 to like you know obviously fund flows but you got to appreciate most institutions and central banks are at zero right now right so then maybe I'll flip over to to this tweet that you s I'm kind of just going through all your tweets these days which is um damn you said yeah yeah this boring person s's tweets uh analysis episode you said it's going to be harder it's uh probably will be hard in the next decade to out form a basket portfolio of Bitcoin salana Tesla didn't think you were going to put that in there and a meme basket do your own work not Financial advice I will likely not hold this bag and change everything constantly and underperform because of overthinking and overtrading

but um and then someone said don't forget e sir and you said don't see a reason to hold it so I mean you gotta yeah you got to expand on this mhm uh well I quite simply think for my crypto portfolio I think salana eclipses ethereum and far surpasses it particularly because of things like deepen working in salana payments working in salana the best founders of building in salana I don't see that level of integration and cohesiveness within the theorum ecosystem even though I still believe it has a place but I again salana is at 75 80 billion fully diluted Market cup and ethereum is at 350 or so 380 um and I just think that that is

that is the there's there's a clear disconnect there yeah um Bitcoin for all the reasons I articulated Tesla is a beted on AI working in a very meaningful way it have they have a lot of data self-driving cars the robots I mean it's just like it has an interesting fan of returns profile not just for Ev cars I'm actually more interested in self-driving cars and what that does to just really truly transform the transportation industry and third like the robots right uh like that that could really truly transform like Robo taxes are really interesting I I like I like these Investments where they have like very interesting fan returns limited downside but asymmetric like fan of returns right

Tesla I think fits that bill um uh meme basket much smaller sized but you know tokenization of attention uh will continue to be a thing um the so does that make any sense because then I was going to say something else about like an alternative type of folio that might perhaps even outperform this one yeah go ahead uh levered SMP index 20% very low chance of being called or liquidated uh 20 what does the 20% mean there just like 120% right like you you basically oh you lever you lever you lever 20% on top right to to go U long the index why I was reading a

report by JP Morgan um the number of companies like the composition of the index has changed dramatically over the last 25 30 years it used to be exclusively industrial now is ex almost almost primarily exactly almost primarily Tech like the top seven tech companies account for a vast disproportioned share of not only gains but also just the index itself um the like this creative destruction like this is a great chart that will only continue to go up um you're seeing these companies like open AI just raised uh six and a half billion I think they like the rise of these companies is just going to I think continue to go pretty exponential but also the rise and fall um and I think

we're just living in a more chaotic this sort of idea of creative destruction period uh in large part by AI large part of just how connected we are um and so yeah I think it's w really hard to outperform the index whether it's NASDAQ or S&P uh like most hedge funds most private Equity Funds most investors don't so why fight it and then you go levered because there are there is a subset of you know private Equity or hedge funds that like do uperform but you could argue you're taking liquidity risk you're taking other types of risk um whereas if you go lever long the index I think the Max draw down of the S&P or the NASDAQ was like

223% Max so like you're very unlikely going to get liquidated or called but you're going to capture uh you know meaningful out performance and so and you're also you know it does the work for you like the rebalancing is probably the most important feature right like let me ask you a question would you rather launch a venture fund and invest in The Cutting Edge uh AI companies and you have a $100 million fund you need to make I don't know 10 to 15 20 Investments uh what do you think I'll performs that type of fund or someone that just longed NASDAQ or S&P with 20% like with with leverage long the S&P all day yeah yeah I mean why

can't you combine these why can't you yeah I I would add the S&P like why don't you just do this basket Bitcoin sold Tesla Meme and then plus index slightly levered index yeah yeah slightly levered index yeah I like that uh I was talking to Prav earlier today and like we were like discussing this uh does any of that make sense or like would you change any of it [Music] um I mean the meme basket will get smoked in a bare market like you so so like Bitcoin salana Tesla levered S&P you can be comfortable holding you can be comfortable holding for a long time I

think and yes you'll go into at some point another crypto bar market and things will go down and that's okay the but like the meme basket most of most of those will go down to zero not down 70% they'll go to zero so the basket or the the memes well not all of them right um not yeah not all not all them the performance of Doge no no not all of them will go zero you're right I mean okay so then what's what's in Your Meme basket because like I don't know if you well I guess you you practically speaking you can't really construct like a meme basket so to speak yeah I mean mad's been very vocal about this yeah like you know Morad I don't know where this he's been tweeting tooo much but um he just posted a like his rev he revises

like con like you know he's like do you buy marads oh boy can't take this seriously um do you buy like a basket like this do you buy whiff is it like the basics like Doge um I I would uh I would feel more comfortable longer term thinking about uh picking the best meme in a particular ecosystem one or two yeah uh as a proxy for a lever again what what are memes memes are just lever bets on the ecosystem yeah with a ton of liquidity uh and so that is very important in the bare Market your ability to come in out of these positions like with forance sometimes

has traded or trades more volume in certain exchanges than Bitcoin like that matters when you know the exit door needs to be really wide when you want to exit these positions and I think you know memes just have like like a very strong product Market fit and they are lever bets right and whff is a levered bet on Soul right in that ecosystem you could already popcat does that too um and and again but I do agree like the survivorship buy like most of these will go to zero and not really break out I would feel more comfortable picking some of the more mature ones like you know that are plus 500 or a billion um and and and you know just look at Doge I mean Doge was just vastly

outperformed ethereum you talk def5 summer yeah Doge outperformed that and nfts why is why is Tesla in there but coinbase is not just because I think um Bitcoin and Salon like I'm mindful of the crypto concentration yeah yeah you could swap perhaps maybe maybe you could go you know some sort of strategy of doing coinbase spot plus some more sophisticated strategy and like long day call options or whatever yeah so how do you think about because I'll do this exercise sometimes too thinking about the right portfolio but then I I find myself

stopping fully short I find myself stopping short of 100% executing it like so I'm curious when you know is is your portfolio do you own no assets outside of I just told you about a w well I guess I don't count that ask no don't count a watch don't count like if is your liquid portfolio Bitcoin salana no Tesla meme coins and lever S&P I would guess no so then the question is well no because I have a venture portfolio that you know I know but of your of your of your non-venture some of them are liquid will become liquid so that introduces at any given point in time a little bit of noise in the

equation uh but I'm always constantly looking at grow the what used to be the eat stack the soul stack or the Bitcoin stack um like that to me is like the like one because if you're not growing that you're not outperforming that The Benchmark and then that's a problem right uh but yeah you're right I mean it's not perfect like in a vum I like to do these exercises too as if I had a blank sheet of paper can I redraw my portfolio from scratch which is not possible but if I were to do it this is how it would look like and that then informs how I want to work my way into into that right right and I think it's still a useful exercise um you know you can never kind of like

liquidate all of your portfolio and then just redraw it from scratch I'm not in that position I can't do it easily because of a liquidity and position sizing or whatnot but I still think that it just allows me to identify areas where I'm over or under allocated so to speak yeah like why has it been a challenge for you taxes like you don't want to surface tax um no it's more actually this kind of ties back to the investor versus founder conversation like I it's easier for me to sit and maybe not have the perfectly optimized thing because it then I don't have to think about it at all um and I can spend all my energy thinking about block works that's actually that's yeah my most real yeah no that makes sense I think Mark andreon

was uh somebody the effect of like if you had 100 million like how would you invest he's like all in the index all in the S&P or $10 million I'm like it's like there's a great chart of like why do we keep fighting this like was like the Market's up like 20 plus percent your date and like I don't know a lot of other people are trying to do more financial wizer you haven't been able to do that right it's like go put it on the index and like live your life you know build a business do something don't stare charts yeah um I agree I agree I I have a buddy who made uh sold this company made probably I think it like or 80 million um and he was uh he was like really actively

trading it was like investing in all these deals and lping into funds and really hated it and uh like just did had got no energy from it basically but felt like that's what he needed to do um relevant yeah that's what he like yeah exactly needed to do that needed to like Angel into companies needed to meet new Founders and then he realized the thing that gave him energy was starting businesses so he moved all of the capital into an S&P and into treasuries and started a company nice started another maybe that's what do man just to put everything in the S&P and yeah go build a fun so I want to talk about a thing that went completely under the radar which is bit Go's stable coin did you see bit go launch the

stable coin no yeah not many people did so you remember I told you that there's going to be pressure on usdc did I bring this up publicly in the podcast because they're not sharing yeah the interest exactly so all right here's the so I finally look through bit Go's information I actually think it's really interesting and let me lay out the reason why and I actually think it will whether or not bito stable coin is going to be the successful one I don't I don't know that because there's all these things you need a good go to market strategy a good BD Team all this kind of stuff but it's going to put pressure on the market for other stable coins so let

me lay out the three types of stable coins right now there are stable coins that keep all of the yield for themselves that's most of the stable coins they they they make the money they keep all the yield for themselves and by the way usdc passing yield onto users via coinbase is not usdc passing on the yield that is a coinbase rewards pool that is so that's like a shows up in their p&l or something else usdc gets Buck is is is keeps all the yield for themselves and they and then they can figure out what the them in coinbase can figure out the rewards pool and they obviously split the money with coinbase okay so that's bucket number one bucket number three um is are user are uh stable coins that pass on the yield

directly to users that is a the problem with that is that is a security so and now Jeremy said that in the podcast that is a security so then it's like okay well what is the solution here you what usds which is bitgo stable coin is doing is they are not passing the yield to the user they're not keeping the yield for themselves they're actually passing the yield onto the holder of whoever is holding the stable coin which is most likely the exchange so they're basically let's say let's say a stable coin can earn 5% today they're they're only keeping 10 bips for themselves and then they're passing on 4.9% to The Exchange and then say telling the exchange this

is your yield you go do what you want with it you keep the 4 .9% or you pass on you know 2.5% to users you keep 2.4 for yourself you you split it amongst different people like it is on them and um I actually think it's a really really really good model and I think people are going to either adopt something like usds or they're going to the stable coins are going to have to Pivot to figure out this because if I here's what I would imagine happens right now and this is all I'm all theorizing stuff right now conjectured ladies and gentlemen yeah if I was an exchange here's how here's what I would do right now I'd pick up the phone and I'd be like hey Jeremy hey Mr aair I'm

sitting on3 billion dollars of usdc give me some of that yield and if I'm Jeremy how about right [ __ ] now yeah right [ __ ] now and if I'm jery guess what I'm saying how about no and then if I'm the exchange I'm saying I need that yield right now and if I'm Jeremy I say no and then they go back and forth and then finally Jeremy says you know what you're a nice guy you're holding $3 billion doar of usdc I appreciate your exchange onboarding and offboarding us and pushing it to your market makers and stuff like that I'll give you some of the yield I'll give you 1% and I want you to strike a certain deal with

circle and if I'm the exchange I'm like well Frick I don't you know I don't really have any other options so then what I'm going to do until now until now right now right now and what I would do is it then you know when whenever the market forces your hand it's a build vers buy conversation so you can either uh I think and and in this CA in this case it's like you could actually use something in the market which is something like usds or you could go build your unstable coin so I think what's about to happen is two things calling my prediction here one we're going to see about a hundred new stable coins launch we're going to see the custodians launch stable coins we're going to see the exchanges launch

stable coins we're going to see fintex like Robin Hood launch stable coins I just saw today Visa is helping BBVA launch a stable coin we're going to see the banks launch stable coins everybody in their mother is going to launch a stable coin that's the first thing that's going to happen the second thing that's going to happen is they're the stable coins their hands are going to be forced and they're going to need to figure out how to give yield back to the users and the way that they're going to do that is not by giving yield directly to the users but by giving it to the people probably the exchanges who are sitting on the yield and that is why uh bit Go's stablecoin which didn't get that much attention I actually think has all of these Downstream impacts on the industry that um I think people should

pay attention to yeah I mean it's like your margins my opportunity kind of thing they do have like brand power I guess I think they well coinbase is I'll give them credit Circle and coinbase are built you know this incredible product called usdc and the has staying power you know still you know not tether tether is like vastly more used internationally but the I think what you're getting at here is like what is the moat of a stable coin is it distribution is it like and how defensible is that in a world where everyone and their mother is now realizing that black rock I mean that uh tether might be the most profitable organization in the world

right you know like per employee certainly and like yeah it's caught a lot of headlines as you're pointing out right now like everyone a lot of traditional fund managers they're all asking me about this they're like what do this how does how does Taylor work you know I'm like I don't know like they've just built this thing that is like used everywhere and then they're like using all those billions of dollars and putting in treasury than keeping all for themselves H that's great but okay explain to me like it feels like this like loophole of sort it's like what is the difference between like Circle giving the yield to The Exchange and then the exchange deciding what to do with it like is it this one-step remove that doesn't make it a security and

you're able to share it with your partner but not with like what you could argue that the exchange is also a customer in the same way that you could the holder of usdc are a customer if you're hosting in a wallet like the exchange is hosting it for you like customing it for you like why is that not a security versus coinbase directly paying you or Circle paying you that yield to the End customer so to speak like I have I have no idea I does make any sense you know what I mean like it just seems like a outdated rule that allows for this like I mean like I saw like so I'm looking at Mike bel's tweets right now Mike is the CEO of bito and he tweeted we swear and it here I'll just I mean it's a jab at coinbase um it is uh

here so it's a coinbase email update to your usdc rate starting October 1st the usdc rewards rate is changing please visit your account etc etc um and then he tweets we swear Gary Ganer it's not a security we just coincidentally reduced our rate our reward with quotes around reward our reward rate a week after the FED reduced rates it's not related to the fact we earn less than the dollars at all so again I actually don't know the legal aspect I'm sure someone will tell us in the comments uh or on Twitter but be just nice if they could just pass like just pass the St coin just pass the security what does it matter like who's being hurt here actually people are losing out on the amount of interest

that they could be earning you know what I mean right like they're taking a risk there is a risk by holding the stable coin you have to believe in the proof of reserves they could dpeg as it has in the past so the consumer that holds usdc is taking risk anyone that holds a stable coin is taking some degree of risk and they're being shafted because they're not earning any of that or very little of that yield and by the way this is true for banks too I think banks have made a killing I think like there's a crazy stat I'll have to pull it up but I just saw like there's a earnings of banks like they' passed on basically zero in normal checking accounts to their customers it's it's like it's crazy like

you know that should be going to the customer or you know and unfortunately unsophisticated customers don't know about other money market accounts or whatever like you you would think it's so obvious right but very few people actually do it you know people are not checking their bank accounts daily they don't they're not as sophisticated with their money like Financial education's a problem but like these laws actually make it you ought to wonder why these laws are put in place and I think the I'm very much what is the actual result in the implications in practice of the law and it's very clear that the consumer is definitely hurting here because they're not earning that interest and who [ __ ] cares if it's a

security call it whatever you want pass that yield over to the customer that's taking the risk if you're depositing money in a bank account you're taking a lot of [ __ ] counterparty risk if you're holding stable cin you're taking that risk and you're not earning any interest on that I mean I'm sorry but call it the security call it whatever you want but like it's very clear that the law here is is meant to protect certain um certain C institutional and not the consumer which to me that's you have to look at what is the intent of the law and what is the actual implication of how that law is being like exploited or not and you know again it's just like a it's quite frustrating yeah yeah um all right that

was my vent good good pod good pod that well you know you reference all my [ __ ] posts so this was easy I didn't do any prep for the podcast I just literally scroll through your Twitter as you're talking I'm like I would like to I would like to do a uh founder type episode with you I know you've done a few and I've looked at and listened to a few of them if you're up for it um I don't know just go deeper in your journey maybe come on did we ever do that I think we were talking about yeah we did one of those maybe like two years ago but I I actually just did this episode on uh the podcast called when shift happens with h this guy Kevin and um is probably the most open I've

ever gotten on a podcast um I I I have these things called cluster headaches I've never talked about them publicly because I thought it would you know make me look weak and um like just a bad bad Optics don't worry about it you you already look weak I I am weak I am weak I'm mentally and physically weak but I didn't want people to know that I am mentally and physically weak uh you're not but I you know I talked about on the podcast so I people should people should go listen to this episode if you just like go I think if you Google when shift happens in my name you can see it but yeah we should we should do that I mean I think about that kind of stuff a lot so I'd love to do that I mean I I think when we open up the most is when people

like it like I got a lot of feedback from people and then U I think generally again back to rounding it for Full Circle I think when we talk about people that are successful or not like we tend to glorify we tend to just highlight the good and not enough a focus because we forget it we don't want to think about about it of like the day-to-day and I hope that this podcast is relatable to people I think when I did the mistakes which I could have gone for many more hours uh and people really like that said hey you ought to do more I'm like yeah I have uh laundry have many more things that I can discuss so we'll uh we'll have to maybe do that and then also um yeah your journey in building an organization particularly because it's really impressive I me it's been

bootstrapped or has had been bootstrapped for a long time and it's uh I think it would serve Founders in crypto not just crypto well to understand that there is a different there is other ways of building a company that don't necessarily you know are like oh you know raise money and yeah brand and all that just being really Frugal and I I I know and have some understanding how you built the organization but I also would like to personally understand that Journey better dude I love you going down this founder rabbit hole i' love man every hour of the I'm at the gym I'm at cycling I'm walking um literally David senra actually like uh commented on one of my tweets I'm like dude I've listened

200 plus of your episodes two 2.2 2.2 speed the best literally the best you list on 2.2 speed yes yes I'm Savage I respect that yeah I respect it but all right man great pod great chat one great chat yes one recommendation movie have you seen the um the WW the bill M the wrestling documentary onf yes Mr Mr M mc mc McMahan MC McMahon how do you proun godamn it people gonna Butch me I [ __ ] English is second McMahan Mr M Mr McMahan oh [ __ ] I just closed the

window how do you [ __ ] pronounce it oh I'm I'm thinking of um a different I'm thinking of a different documentary I'm thinking of the documentary on the Gladiators you ever see that show American Gladiators oh someone did tell me to watch that I haven't yeah um American Gladiators yeah yeah uh you're you're talking about the documentary on Vince McMahon yeah Vince McMahon yeah yeah uh it's okay psycho psycho human I haven't seen the documentary go look up vinck man's text messages unless it's in the documentary if you want to see some some egregious uh anyways it has some good it has some good gems in it sexual harassment I know another way to describe it I mean

there's a lot of things right that but yeah he's uh interesting character to say to least anyways thanks everyone for listening uh drop us a comment I'm sure there's going to be a lot of things that you can I'm actually excited to watch the comments uh it is a highlight we love reading the YouTube comments so I we actually read all of them and the more you [ __ ] on Santiago the happier I am over the weekend so you know what to do great pod that's the end I thought you would have plugged for permission list I was going to plug permission list but yeah good [ __ ] on me folks thanks for watching today's episode just wanted to quickly mention that the wait for crypto's killer app wve is nearly over thanks to today's sponsor anoma the universal intent

machine to stay up to date with anoma you can follow them at x.com anoma or sign up for the newsletter at an.net thanks again to enoma for sponsoring today's episode n [Music]