Fireside chat: Vitalik Buterin & Gavin Wood

Transcript

[Music] okay the moment has arrived which it looks like many of you have been waiting for we are here for a panel or actually a fireside chat with vitalik and Gavin and it will be moderated by Joe Scher so please all join us up on stage and we will talk ideas and implementations [Applause] test test it works it works all right all right so we're

copying you guys rarely get together for something like this and uh uh when we do all too often we can spend the entire time talking about history lessons uh uh and old stories but while it has been 10 years since the ethereum build was ongoing I thought it might be fun if we just skipped it and talked about something that was more fun and uh uh more presently relevant so uh I have a number of interconnected topics today based on many of your different ideas and implementations over time that have led us to where we are and thought that we might discuss them and see where they take us from here um there are five sections that I'll run through pretty briefly I'll start with one question to

each of you that are different thereafter all the questions are shared so you can bounce off of one another my first question was to gav um you've authored the ethereum yellow paper uh group parody which helped to prove out the multic client ecosystem and uh polka dot championed uh uh what looked a lot like the rollup model seven years ago so you've had some foresight uh can you tell the audience here after presenting on why it uniquely stands out as a breakthrough that's additive to the greater blockchain ecosystem and may fit into that collection uh sure um uh where to start Jam is basically a less

opinionated version of polka dot um and that's its sort of Chief uh contribution it's like with when we did polka dot it was very much like I had this idea in my mind oh it should be like sharded ethereum like except we'll have heterogenous shards so different shards can be better at different things um but like the idea was that it it it had these um uh that it was made up of many chains right scalable heterogenous multi-chain was how it was originally described and that that's changed my my mind is now changed like that's fine um and I I don't I wouldn't like you know

uh get particularly upset that that's that's where my my brain went at the time CU it was as you say it's a long time ago um but Jam gets rid of this multi-chain requirement it doesn't it's not it's not that it it prevents there being multiple Chains It's just that um it's not a need it's an opinion it's an opinion over how computation should be um organized and it's not needed um It's Perfectly reasonable to have a base layer that doesn't dictate um that computation should be split between what I've I've called in the gray paper um persistent fragmentation of state right and this persistent fragmentation of state is problematic

and jam gets rid of that got it um so balic your question is more on uh implementation side gabs was more on the idea side this will kind of be the theme as I bounce back and forth between these two subjects um I thought I was the idea as guy does all the real coding that is thanks for both of your service by the way uh one of ethereum's greatest successes since then has been reaching escape velocity in terms of uh uh things like this and and larger ecosystem um you have called yourself a glorified blogger but thankfully you now have people standing by to build on all of the ideas uh uh that you can put out there along with thousands of their own

generally speaking what do you see as a secret sauce to uh fostering ecosystem growth I think um I I was thinking about this um recently um actually uh in the context of a different discussion the discussion was basically um thinking about like what kinds of narratives ethereum has versus like say know narratives that like Bitcoin has or narratives that like salana has or narratives that has or whatever and uh like there's a improve the world narrative and there's like a selfish narrative and um I think you know

obvious I feel like the kind of improve the world narratives of both Bitcoin and ethereum are kind of pretty well understood but then if you think about the selfish narrative right like the one for Bitcoin is kind of not pretty yet easy to see um if you go to like even you know like and just like you know some of the slogans there if you go to like any Bitcoin heavy Community it's basically that you know if the Paradigm of the economy is uh changing and uh if you get in earlier then uh and you kind of you know stick it through and you have a dime in hands and you're going to get wealthier right and the ethereum community doesn't really emphasize this

as much and so one of the things I was wondering or thinking about is basically like what is the selfish Narrative of ethereum and the best answer that I could come up with especially for early ethereum is basically that ethereum is like the intellectual ecosystem where the like some of the smart artist and most interesting people are right and I think that like really was the thing that drove a lot of people especially kind of early on right like people who came in and then started deciding you know okay you know let's build prediction markets on top of this let's build Dows on top of this um let's research economics and so forth right

that like there was a community that like actually had this kind of really uh strong intellectual Hub to it and that was um like really key in uh bringing in a lot of uh developers a lot of uh thinkers a lot of a lot of many different kinds of people and I think there's like this interesting open question right which is like in the 2020s I think the crypto space is moving from Theory to practice and uh if you're just working on the theory then in some sense uh intellectuals are all you need but once you're working on practice and uh like we have to really uh reach out to you like users and create real applications on a much larger scale than

like how does the ethereum community need to adapt to that and like some of the posts I recently wrote on layer 2 is is kind of one of my uh attempts at uh an answer um so I think uh yeah my answer for how to uh yeah build um an ecosystem I think it kind of mixes Community and Tech because I think a community and like both in the sense of like specific people and in the sense of like the specific values that were emphasized in especially early on were super key but at the same time there's like the role of technology in enabling Community right because if your technology only supports doing things in one specific

way then you often end up Gathering a community of people that have an extremely strong motivation to like retroactively convince themselves that the one way that they're already restricted into doing is like actually the only correct way to do everything right and like the fact that ethereum was this uh general purpose developer platform early on really uh helped it to avoid the Trap and I think the question now is like you know what is the equivalent of like those things kind of the right you know Community choices and the right technology choices for this decade so I did read your paper on subcultures relatedly so this is a question to both of you

guys I've said for a long time just as a participant in these ecosystems that it looks like one thing that helps is that conflict breeds Community I enjoy this uh if you consider some of the outcomes of our industry's most famous conflicts whether you know GE and parody and multili ecosystems whether it's Jay and Ethan in the cosmos space ethereum and ethereum classic the 2x movement and segwit people tend to get involved in something when they have something to fight for so this is my subjective opinion I'm wondering if both of you in different context maybe would agree with the premise that conflict breeds community and how blockchain ecosystems can either welcome

or Foster debate without creating either Reliance with too little of it or chaos with too much of it I would really hope that uh it's not the case but your examples are reasonably um pursuant yeah I mean should this therefore uh imply we should uh breed uh conflict in order to create Community but but is it that why we're doing ler 2os and why you were doing the par chains thing and now the rollups thing um I mean par chain like the

rollups thing are par chains right it's the same underlying Tech it's just um with less opinionation I think that ethereum strength came from um a a lack of internal strife um and I think that the uh the community of ethereum grew large and strong in part because it it didn't position itself like kind of what you were saying it didn't position itself with too much opinionation and uh I think you in order to have conflict there have to be differing opinions mhm um and if that leads to a uh you know a fork in the

road like e classic for example um then that is going to uh I would I would have thought the most permissive sensible moderate uh part of the fork will um will probably uh have a have a chance at growing the bigger community in that particular instance it did so I'm not sure I'd agree that conflict breeds Community I think if anything um sensible uh moderate um governance breeds good community and and lack of opinionation I'll give itel chance to speak but just to elaborate the question wasn't directed at let's say inter layer one play but um even within an ecosystem if uh uh uh we've seen that if if one

entity is building the official wallet there may be fewer wallets if there's one favored defi application or chain there maybe fewer other defi applications and chains whereas even from the beginning of ethereum's days when it was augur versus nosis it was my ether wallet versus uh uh uh my crypto and these kinds of things the participating in the discussions and which side is favored always having more than one option uh whether that's necessary um you know in general the chain remaining neutral though it's well taken I think that has to be a good environment for competition competition for sure helps uh move stuff forward at at a certain cost uh rid of um you know um more work is done than strictly

necessary there can be conflict you I thought the 7702 situation is like one of the better examples of a conflict like actually creating the motivation to kind of think hard about like what is the the synthesis between two sides and like actually creating something that does a better job of making both sides happy um so there have been things like that um blobs as I mentioned uh from my post this morning right like being able to increase the average block size without increasing the maximum and so you get more throughput without getting more security risks in a certain sense and so there sometimes um like the

existence of a conflict does like create that kind of incentive like that pressure to really get off your butt and kind of overclock your brain and really like think about what the clever ideas are so that like that definitely is conflict at its best and I think there's an interesting question and like how do we get more of that and how do we get like less ofic people just yelling at each other so similarly um this having been directed as sort of within an ecosystem rather than between them um I had a question about the in interplay between layer one blockchains um because so gav you had a written an article in 2020 called hold tight here come the

blockchain wars and uh it's but what was interesting is rather than so personally what what I viewed at the time is that a bunch of great ideas would kind of go head-to-head and better elements of better ideas would would sort of emerge but in today's blockchain space there's probably too much focus on NeverEnding High fully diluted valuation low flow tokens that are receiving a lot of promotion from elsewhere and you've both spoken at length about the importance of decentralization in the process so maybe this isn't the type of War of legitimate versus maybe you know push that you expected so trying to refocus the conversation to uh uh technologists um on the interplay

between l1s do you see technologies that are different but similar like uh ethereum polka dot or whatever Jam becomes chooses to become or it plays out from the people putting it together um as necessarily compliment whether they're service providers to one another or some other use case as zero sum or competitive or do we not know about the interplay yet based on the utility that uh results from them I think uh I I I can't imagine a world where um there is only one um One path to achieving some particular goal um or at least if there you know if if in the end there is some

Optimum design and I I really cannot see that um it it's really impossible uh even even for someone of uh such uh you know Global intellect to understand uh what that design would be upfront so I definitely see uh it being very important to have many different approaches and to Foster different approaches providing the costs are not too high um uh I think at least you know between uh ethereum and polka dot there were a lot of good um I think the underlying narrative and the desire for continue for continued work um are are often shared the values

essentially um I think uh again to take ethereum polka dot as an example um the uh the path selected do they are different polka dot certainly uh in the past has had quite a um I would say a more opinionated path um not one that I recognized particularly well at the time but I think um with with having written um and thought about it a lot and written the the gray paper I'm like it's clearer to see um but I think I think unfortunately most of the L1 compet competition that we see is not between approaches with the same underlying values but actually uh different

values mhm yeah I mean I think um some a lot of the time the uh competition between the like projects that have different values like it it ends up being like maximally acrimonious on social media but then at the same time actually like minimally competitive in practice because like if you think about like you know like say Bitcoin versus uh ethereum for example right like you know who here would be happy if uh Bitcoin is the only chain that exists okay so like one um and then imagine um if we go to AIT you know a Bitcoin like maximalist room with like you know like not not bitcoiners but

like the laser ey people and we ask them like how many people here would be happy if ethereum was the only she in the room like we probably have you know like also one one troll somewhere in the back of the audience raised their hand right um so that's uh thank you troll like you bring light and joy to the room um the but uh Bas so like in in a lot of ways like the facts that they have different values actually means that they like are going for different markets that actually makes them less competitive um in a certain sense whereas uh you know if you have uh projects that try to have like very similar values then they end

up being more competitive and I think this also motivated know for example one of my like recent uh kind of change in thinking toward being more will to explore ethereum leer to specializing more in somewhat different directions okay I have just one more question on the on things that touch on differences between uh Technologies before getting the things that are more focused on growing a bigger tent but um it's been a while since we used to debate things like onchain offchain governance systems token voting versus ethereum style consensus seeking um I was serous to chat about how you both feel that with

some time now in between uh there have been some successes and some things that have proven more difficult in both models whether it's you know short-term thinking uh uh that can come with uh uh public voting or excessive public disputes uh uh through consensus seeking there have been speed bumps in uh any approach but do you feel confident in the respective paths that that uh uh these types of systems have taken do you think that they might ever change for example could Dot's approach change with Jem or we've seen some l2s choose most l2s I think token voting models while L1 remains offchain and do you see these choices as binary or could there be some

interplay there well I know that we had a a chat last time we chatted in Singapore um the the idea of uh onchain governance upgradability um uh came came up and then we we definitely had different um uh opinions on uh the place of on chain governance with regards to uh Bas layer Tech I'm I'm a little uh I would say I'm still pretty uh keen on uh on chain governance on deification um I would say I'm probably quite very keen I mean I I I I don't have time uh these days much to to take

a a thermometer to the broad um opinions but I mean for me it's like it's it's crucial that decentralization happens in terms of um uh social governance as much as it happens in terms of you know how many validators there are in the network um but in for specifically Bas layer technology and whether governance or the governance mechanisms for um uh evolving that how it should evolve what social consensus is needed um I'm still of the belief that we probably need some clear rules as to how to govern the um the overall Evolution but I think it's uh I'm less

of the opinion that the actual Bas layer technology um need be uh autonomously upgradeable um so in that I think maybe I've come a little bit closer to uh to vitalik's opinion um but it's more because I believe the Bas layer technology should probably be kept as minimal as possible as opinion as possible and therefore need not be upgraded need not be a target for upgrade or Evolution on a very uh at least you know beyond a very long-term uh timeline I think ethereum has uh in general done well with its uh offchain

approach to governance um but I uh I actually am uh interested in the idea of like become like adding a little bit of kind of elements of uh like formalized uh like I guess Dow style um governance in the sense of like not like literally you know like having direct onchain hooks that say if 75% of you know the the decentralized Senate vote then like the uh you know some like pre compile get at it gets some added or like some hard Fork happens but uh in the sense of having better public signaling tools

right basically like we and who here remembers a carbon vote back in like 2016 and 17 right this was back when we were doing first the Dow fork and then we were doing the uh like three rounds of issuance reduction and some other things and there are like a series of votes where if you if you were an eth holder you could vote on whether or not a like one of these change like very controversial changes that the core devs did not want to like personally be deciders of could could happen and like they were advisory votes and there was like no um you know commitments by anyone to follow the results although in practice I think they they all ended up

followed but I think in 24 right what we have is we have not just coin voting but we also have like all of these different zkid Technologies I me know we have a proof of personhood we have zass we uh have like know various you know proofs of participation um there's uh all kinds of like different ways of measuring a community and just like having polls that try to use uh those metrics be available and like especially for changes that are not not kind of technical in the sense of like oh you know do we do veral trees or do we skip straight to starking Binary trees with vision Mark 32 but more like uh values

driven questions potentially around you know economics potentially around like uh you know degree of oasification versus know like progress and similar things like just having those polls be made and like just having the results of that be available I think could steer things in a more democratic Direction instead of like just having this kind of nebulous you know consensus between a few dozen devs so I think uh like I'd be interested in kind of know exploring ideas like that and seeing what happens so you're saying if anybody has a futar system with reputation based waiting in the audience to plot

away it's interesting that you guys um have both moderated views in that section over time I think I I'm obviously have been a fan of both of your work for a long time um I tend to think that even if our smartest researchers are 98% correct with consistency a rocket might still explode when it's 2% off course uh so it's the collaboration of the technically minded in the industry is is something that I don't don't think that we should give up on at any point um we should keep on on ramping as many gigar brains as possible so the next question is about growing a bigger tent how do you encourage new growth in terms of leadership mentorship

or just generally letting people take the Reigns on things where you once had greater involvement in order to shrink your portion of the pie but grow the pie grow the tent I mean and in my case uh writing a formal spec is a really helpful way of doing that rather than being the one coder that knows uh how this bit of the protocol Works um and decentralizing the uh uh the expertise base with a um effective uh um uh resilient model for ensuring that other people are well incentivized to um uh to

take up that expertise base and I mean this is what it comes down to I mean ethereum has it relatively easily just due to the number of um uh of uh developers within the ecosystem and the relatively uh um uh small amount of core protocol with um a relatively long period of time that it's been around um uh polka dot had a much bigger core protocol it was uh really the reference for it was code which is like I'm still very much like I was I was when you were like right we're going to write a spec and we're going to have three different

implementations and none of them will be the primary implementation this was like uh yes this is the way you do it this is how uh in uh Aerospace industry this is how they make systems so that planes don't fall out of the sky because some guy made a coding error right it's it's totally the right way of doing it and it's it's one of the things I was mentioning earlier in the talk it's like really something that I want to get back to with Jam it's like there should be a protocol uh that is written that is cannot be a primary implementation and all other all other implementations are equal and they must be based on this reference um but keeping that expertise uh around um is is is a non-trivial

thing and unless it's kept around then guess who guess who is the resident expert that must be have the phone on 247 right um so it's it's really I think important to um mechanize this through regular you know cryptoeconomic incentive like you know what this is this is the entire industry guys like you know we create incentive structures um we need to create an incentive structure to ensure that expertise is decentralized not just validat sets MH I think um over the last like five uh to eight years ethereum has done a lot in broadening and decentralizing its

developer base right so we've gone from uh you know about uh two like runable clients and one python client that was like too slow for the real chain I think did anyone ever manage to sink P ethereum to pass the Shanghai D I'm actually not sure um sinking past the Shanghai D is hard didn't we base the gas limits partly on the python node yeah yeah we did um but um you know to uh then we definitely had uh a long period of time when like gu was super dominant but now it feels like there is actually this like pretty wide

diversity of different client teams and then you have uh know Engineers from teams like ref that are like actively suggesting protocol changes and then you know more things on the consensus side on the research uh side it feels like it's definitely decentralized quite a bit from myself like there's entire changes that make it through the uh know idea generation to spec top implementation pipeline without myself even like really touching them at all um but uh it's still pretty concentrated in the EF and like trying to see like can we brought that more as like one next step one layer that I feel

like we haven't done nearly enough on broadening is uh what I might call kind of the intellectual and ideal layer like the part of the public discourse that like asks the big picture questions of like given where the world is in the 2020s what is ethereum trying to do what is the role that ethereum is trying to have what is the the world that we're trying to achieve through a theum existing as opposed to not not existing and uh like that's uh the sort of thing where it feels like there's still uh like relatively speaking a much smaller group of people who are participating there's there's definitely uh like new people who are joining and it's and it

it it does feel like it's getting wider but like if I could accelerate one thing I would definitely try to accelerate that much more okay um as a quick followup you know on missionaries and Mercenaries gav mentioned this industry is entirely based on incentive anything that can be tried will be tried and um you know we've seen that play out over time um at which point you know do you think that the incentives are trying to think of a good way to frame it is it difficult to keep good mind share in those research camps are the incentives often times too warped uh

uh uh to pull every new idea into a new space that pull them out of both of yours and uh uh how do you maintain that balance so that people can uh uh you know have a bit of a uh they're in the camp um but they don't feel the incentive pull to go elsewhere I'll go to vitalic First this time just because I've been tossing all the questions in the same circular order if you don't mind um yeah I mean I think um there definitely are important projects that are like really valuable for the ecosystem and that default incentives that exist automatically don't do a good job of uh encouraging and I feel like we we have

gotten somewhat better at um I would say covering the early stage of that pipeline right so like the uh you know ethereum Foundation salaries have increased by quite a significant amount over the last last few years there's more Grant programs a lot of them are very independent for the foundation there's gitcoin grants there's optimism rpgfan a hackathon and then like finish

it and do all the security auditing in every in a few months and like maybe spend $100,000 and then there's a second stage which is like you get it from demo stage to a stage where it's like actually able to compete at at world scale and that second stage maybe costs like $100 million and it feels like a lot of the time what projects have to deal with is like while they're doing the first stage they're in this like very you know like happy you know like friendly Comm bubble and you know you have like these you know they don't have to worry about money they can ask like one one of 10 different groups of nice guys to provide the funding and uh you know the fun the

funding comes and lots of people are willing to help but then as soon as they grow past that first stage um like the incentives suddenly shift and suddenly like you have to basically rely entirely on things like tokens and VCS and so like it feels like there is this kind of chasm in you know in between this kind of early stage and these like very like much later stage like successful ideas and projects that we're still not doing a good enough job of handling and I think trying to figure out how to improve on that is like one of those puzzles that I really care about um yeah I mean making sure everyone gets what they think that they

should get is is is really hard especially when we're talking about innovations that could um uh uh have have you know huge effect and huge value um but no one really knows what that huge value would be until it's actually fully deployed and you know and this is you know might not make very many friends here but like this is one of the reasons communism doesn't work right I mean it's like there can be no sort of central board a portions particular resources to particular people on the basis of what their Innovation might may or may not bring um this is why market-based systems actually uh do a much better job

um they let the market decide and in principle the market should a portion resources according to the value of the thing so presumably some market-based uh incentive structure that exists within an ecosystem would be an obvious Way Forward um I think I think probably the biggest thing is just to sort of U have have the incentive so that it's um people have what they need to experiment and are are are well um um don't somehow if if they want to take it further and I totally get this whole thing of like they're being sort of an early stage and a later stage um in the early stage it's it is about having what

you need to experiment or it should be some people you know G grifters are like no give me 10 million now and I'll maybe think about coding something up it's like no well maybe they're not the people that we should be talking about um but in the later stage yeah sure there the you know if if one wants to have significant value capture it's probably not going to be given with 100K Grant you're probably going to have to set up some value capture mechanism and I suppose in that case it's about um having a sufficiently permissive uh ecosystem structure that um that value capture is available uh to some degree at least to an acceptable degree uh without uh them having to leave the ecosystem Al

together I have one easy mode question to wrap and then the boss is going to let me know if there's time for uh an audience question or two or if we're over but uh uh so for all of the Builders out here or that were're at eth Berlin last week or at any event in this industry where they're building things making a difference if they might someday be the gavs or the vitalics in their own worlds uh who are some people in the open source Community generally that you admire in terms of their own leadership or qualities that you've looked to emulate when championing your own ideas that you would urge that they learn from to whoever has a name or two that pops into their head first this time cuz when you're put on the spot you

know it's a hard one I called it an easy mode question but might have lied yeah I don't know maybe uh I you know if I'm going to be uh put on the spot uh to pick a name an open source guy out of the air I mean uh lenus tals has done his that was the name in my head sorry I mean is is is maybe the obvious one right is uh and he he generally you know says sensible stuff and he not afraid to say stuff I think these are two very important uh qualities to have if you both agree it makes it easier to get them to the next Pro anything further vitalic or should I

toss to the audience toss to the audience all right frenzy how many do we have time for one to okay one to two so think I need to take all right yeah okay so audience questions raise your hands and since we only have time for one to two please really think about a good one yo so hello everyone uh I would be curious to see to hear your opinion like both of you were kind of like in in the epicenter of the whole industry for more than more than a decade there was a TENS of billions of dollars invested from private Capital also lot of money from the retail capital

and also the like you could see bitcoiners paying for coffee nearby in police it's it's cute but why do you think the industry this despite all that in capital of intelligence social capital and financial capital is still so irrelevant like the the amount of daily active users is like less than 1% of population of the entire VA I I fear that even like 0.1% of the entire population why do you think it's still a case despite so much of concentrated effort and intellectual and social and financial capital

um for me it's about um we are this is sadly still mostly a technical and financial product that is trying to be marketed to people that have basically zero Technical and financial uh needs and background um when we start uh when when it becomes predominantly about um uh a product that is Rel to the average person then there will be an according Market uptake but I I you know this was born of Bitcoin right and Bitcoin is a uh technical Financial

product right it's highly Technical and it's based almost exclusively around the finance and it's just not it's just not relevant for most people for for some people who really understand the technical uh elements the the social context of it and the uh and need to buy a cup of coffee or send money from from one place in the world to another then yeah it may become more relevant but in general it's just not relevant I think uh there is a yes sense in which the uh natural target market of this technology is just inherently the uh entire set of the world's non- aage people in the sense that uh you know if there is some

workflow that uh like really massive numbers of people around the world um do then like INF even centralized infrastructure is going to be built around it and is going to make it crazy convenient right and uh you know people are going to build apps around it people are going to you know like build the regulatory Frameworks to accommodate it people are um going to um you know like integrate it all into I you know the banks and like all of the existing mainstream stuff and and a lot of the existing um like pragmatic use cases of crypto have you know precisely been the ones that like Target people that are

what Target people and Target situations that are not well targeted by a lot of these existing institutions right so International payments is like probably the one where I personally get the largest amount of use value and then if you see where people get the largest like pragmatic use value from crypto in general a lot of it is just like people in developing countries right because uh you know that is the place where like the the banks are just not interested in like extending current centralized systems right and uh you know the like people who are go toward decentralized approaches um like this even outside of

blockchains I mean like often our people where there's like some fund mental barrier that like discourages the know established centralized approaches from serving them right and I think that is something that uh like to some extent I you know the space is U like it's totally okay to embrace and it's uh something that uh you know the more we uh do a good job of embracing it and uh at the same time like actually continue doing things like working on improving the technology and the infrastructure so we're not like needlessly putting up extra barriers in front of users no more we can kind of keep uh finding with more

of these uh longtail use cases that are super valuable for people so I think I would uh also point out that your your examples are bang on in terms of the developing world but I I think the reason that these systems are actually um increasing you know more used in the developing World more useful is because they're more relevant and the relevance from the resilience that in the developing World Systems like the social structure and many of the many of things based on the social structure like the financial services are just not resilient they're corrupt right they they don't function well and one of the one of the biggest sort of areas that I see people excited about GE geographical areas like Argentina and South America why well

because you know the the alternative to using crypto is not very good it's not r ilent um and I think uh there is inevitably a cost to using web 3 Technologies right it's it's harder to engineer these things as we as we well know and uh but the thing that you get for that is resilience which means it can operate in areas of the world where maybe people are uh uh where where structures and organizations are uh function less well where there is just an underlying higher noise and Corruption Factor okay that question hit a hit a

spot apparently um we unfortunately have to wrap here the program will commence again a huge thank you to Gavin vitalic Joe for doing this was very special and we will quickly change this stage set up and be back in 2 minutes