Firedancer: The Next Era of Solana Performance | Analyst Round Table

Transcript

Solas started from a different path to ethereum and you know they didn't have the multi client approach but like now they're finally getting there and this might finally eliminate one of the biggest criticisms with the Solana blockchain which is liveness and toally did Ann did say that he will remove the beta label from Solana if when fire dancer reaches a third of the network nothing said on zerox Research is a recommend to buy or sell Securities or tokens this podcast is for informational purposes only and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions not Financial advice Pacho Ryan and our guests May hold positions in the company's funds or

projects discussed uh what's up guys welcome back to another episode of ox research today I am joined by Mark and Luke from the blockworks research team to talk about everything that's happening in the crypto markets Mark Luke thanks for coming on how you guys doing yeah all good [Music] good to hear it um I guess let's let's start off what are we looking at how do we feel about the markets um there's maybe been a little bit of shift in sentiment um lately I'm curious on your guys thoughts are we looking at anything specific at the moment um any particular tokens or or categories or or areas that we're interested at the moment um on my end I it seems like it's kind of turning

around but I've kind of been bullish from like like most of Q2 when everybody was getting upset during the crb market I've I've never seen such a mix of high prices like Bitcoins are like low 60s ethereum is are like high 2000s combined with such bad energy so I mean like and I feel like this is every cycle so I'm like I love that everybody's so upset when bitcoin's like 6K like this is this is just a sign of of things to come in the future but then also you know as an analyst I spend most of my time looking at like fun Al data so you know if you look at Q2 we're still in Q3 now but if you look at Q2 you know record active daily addresses record revenues you know

we're starting to see some more reasonable valuations in the space like price to sales price to equities kind of like matching some of their trfi and web two pairs so I mean overall I I you know I'm feeling good about the markets and you know with you know entering a interest rate cutting environment and hopefully after the US elections there's less un reggulator uncertainty either way you know I'm I'm I'm I'm shaping up for a good 2025 yeah and looking out six weeks ahead um the 2024 election certainly seems to be big event that the market is waiting for resolution on if we think back to the 2020 election uh we saw a

vix Spike and then Equity indices form this High time frame equilibrium and consolidation into the resolution of the election then ultimately like all of the hedging positions rolled off um people took off their protection and we saw a very large move to the upside uh following the election and looking at the price action in equity indices and the Vic Spike we saw at the end of July um I can't help but think it's the same fractal from 2020 but just pulled forward a few months so seeing things break to the upside right now um coupled with rate cuts and a bullish trajectory

on that on that path um I'm particularly optimistic and then uh looking at crypto markets in particular um there are many many assets that have uh broken their downtrends and established weekly uptrends um we still see Bitcoin dominance near cycle highs um that being said there have been some I guess you could say blue chip alts that have had substantial outperformance in recent weeks with moves being 100 to 200% um so ultimately I think Equity indices uh create bullish backdrop and um a lot of the favorable Assets in the space uh

could trade a lot higher over the coming months months yeah I like I like the overview there I think um it's funny if you think back a year um I think these were these were all sort of the factors that people had in their minds right for 2024 it was like rates were still high people were thinking okay rate Cuts will come eventually we'll have an election year in 24 um there'll be these other factors like kind of you know maybe come out of a recession Etc that was you know the the economy is not doing so well you know late 22 early 23 um and I think you look to the sentiment recently um where maybe you know we have some of those things coming into play with you know Ray Cuts actually happening an election coming coming up soon and I think people are it's just funny to see

people like maybe overthink it they're like no I don't know like it maybe it won't happen the way that I thought it would happen you know and planned it out a year ago um and to see you know like you said some some assets you know break Trend or make moves upward and have you know people in the community on the timelines on Twitter saying you know maybe this is a takeprofit point like we could go lowerer again I don't know what to do like um I I think that it's an interesting time in the market when you have sentiment like that where people they're sort of battle scarred from the past few months um it's it's it's a big question for them on if we see this trend continue or not um and I think it's funny because you're seeing some of the risk appetite come back quite

quickly um I think I don't know if people are just are overthinking like rate cutting into like what seems to be an okay economy at the moment um but there are like meme coins that have done multiple x00 perents in the past you know week um off of this kind of this trending move in Bitcoin and other assets so uh we'll see where it goes um but it's certainly exciting positive at the moment um is is the way that it seems um one thing that um an agency that that loves to continue throwing a wrench in our plans is um the SEC and um there was a headline the other day that um I think was not quite as truly factual as it as it claimed to be but um

basically the the headline came across the the table that said the SEC says crypto mining devices are securities now I think this was not quite the actual like ruling and result here um this this green United um was selling basically boxes that they claimed mined their token in what was like assumed to be like a dpin project um what I think what they were actually selling were Bitcoin mining and then they were they had some process to basically you know reassign like these green tokens to people um on like ethereum for example um so it was a little bit of like um you know just sort of blatant fraud I think um masked as like a dein project essentially um so I

I think that ruling kind of I don't know if these writers just you know they just really really love clicks but um I think ultimately the ruling was a little more on the fraud side than on the actual like you know dpin and other mining machines being actual Securities um I'd love to hear any takes though like I don't know that you could could really Steel Man or make the argument that like a computer or or generalized device that can mine a cryptocurrency would be viewed as a security I mean your phone could be a security at that point yeah I mean I actually skimmed the um the ruling the actual ruling by the judge just to see like is am I are they misunderstanding something was it really clickbaity and I think think it was like you said just

for the clicks because in the ruling it was like the SEC has clearly showed that this investment contract combined with the mining offering of mining devices and investment contract is a security offering um so I I think you know I think the better headline should have been in this case like SEC gets one right because this was just blatant fraud and I don't know this is the kind of thing I would like to see more from the SEC like these instead of like going after the actors who are trying to do good by the industry so um you know I I'm all for I'm all for the SEC on this one and um yeah but maybe maybe the clickbaity title made it so that we

actually got some coverage of of something the SEC did right yeah and at least for the Hoy test um for it to be an investment contract the the expectations of profits must be derived from the efforts of of others um but to the extent you're a customer buying some hardware and that Hardware derives the tokens or the expectation of profit and I guess you own that individual uh Enterprise um that doesn't really seem like a security to me um that being said like we have we have this problem in the space where um there are a tremendous number of instruments that are um sold

to the market communicating some expectation of profit um and it's it's highly inconvenient to the industry um but a lot of those instruments very much do look like unregistered Securities offerings so I think ultimately like crypto enables rails to um novel rails to bring to Market a lot of things that look like Securities that that don't have um his or case law behind them um so I ultimately think you know with the 2024 election we might get better Frameworks for uh Clarity on what these things look like I think in this case it

was more so the common enterprise definition too for the how test because I think they were selling the boxes but not actually delivering it to the end clients so they were operating it on behalf of them like it's okay to buy a helium device and set that up yourself run your own node and you you were the one in charge of how much profits you make to to some to a certain degree but because that they were operating all of this for you on the one entity like that's more so an investment contract or security offering than anything else yeah at that point you could almost you know you could you could take away the kind of obis of the hardware and it's essentially like you're paying money to receive you know then tokens directly at that point um versus the alternative where you know you've got the hardware

you're mining on the on like a network per se and you're receiving the tokens from you know the rewards of the network um that makes total sense I think back to your point as well Luke I recall years ago like in 20 in the 2021 kind of Market cycle um even like memecoins and other you know shitcoins if you want to call them that on um you know Binet smart chain other chains there was this tendency earlier on to make like explicit statements of you know we are going to do this we will achieve this like the token will do this um and there were I think there were some rulings during that year that um you know Le led to some slap on the wrist in regard to like explicit language um likely due to that you know kind of that that measure

of what is a security or not um and we saw that language change very quickly on lots of projects websites um as a result so I think that's something that's kind of been continuing onward over the past few years as well yeah almost better to to scrap the road map and any plan of a business and just call a shitcoin for what it is so it's funny too because I think you know with memes with with nfts I think we often the the Advent of utility is is usually has been seen as like the death of that thing so um it's a bit ironic the way that that has played out but um I guess since we're on the the topic of of meme coins um I wanted to

highlight um the salana dashboard the salon Dex activity dashboard that uh our data team recently put out out um and speaking of memes um I think there's some few interesting things to highlight specifically on those um for one salana as we all know I think has been kind of the meme coin Hub um of of recent I guess maybe the past year or so you'd want to say um at this point pump fund the Advent of that platform and kind of the proliferation of that kind of idea across different chains as well um we saw this pretty significant rise in in mcoin Dex volume dominance on Soul um upwards of what 70% um at at some points

here um and actually with the kind of Advent of pump fun that contributed to an overall rise in that percentage so there was like some kind of net increase in in total meme activity um you know in recent weeks and months it's been down I think as you know the market has kind of chopped a bit um but it's interesting to see this trend and I think if you extrapolate to other chains you know base um likely ethereum probably binance smart chain the others where um this type of you know Meme activity happens um you know it would not be surprising to see similar like high ratios of activity there's some pretty strong pmf um I think another another exciting thing and interesting thing Dan Dan

Smith on the team frequently talks about um active addresses low value active addresses it's it's a bit of um it's it's a common point for him and I think it's interesting to see um that broken out here where we've got um Dex active addresses with less than $10 in volume um radium has kind of overtaken that and I think you know upwards of 99% of active addresses um in that less than 10 $10 lifetime volume bracket um I think likely a result of that being you know Meme coins maybe coming from pump fun getting their liquidity on radium um and then seeing you know you know attempts by community members Maybe to to distribute that token to as many addresses as possible um maybe get people thinking that um that lots of

people are buying in what have you but the other met the other metrics for um radium have been interesting I know Marky wrote a report on radium their overall kind of share of of salana Dex volume has been um you know was growing into um the beginning of this year and Still Remains quite strong like they they've sort of hovered near this 50% um kind of margin of all Soul activity is is there anything else um super interesting I guess about maybe the case for radium yeah I mean for sure so just on a caveat what like okay that was interesting how much meme coins or like less than $10 meme coin activity is on radium I did a report last month or maybe it came out earlier this year and

it was based on last month's data most recent data as in August and in August I was looking through the the data and 13% of all of their of their volume was from mem Co so I mean it's you know it's still predominantly used for other things and I mean like Sol dashboard here says like you know if you were to break it down into users who traded over half a million in in volume they are still like market leader maybe oras coming up with that too and you know Carlos who also works on the research team with us has um has a report on um Ora as well but I think the um I mean I think the thing about radium that really stuck out to me was how much revenue that they making from all of this this

trading activity and then you know I mean they they've done 460 million in fees alone and um a 35 million of that 35 million of that has just been spent on repurchasing their token and you know I annualized it and it's a 12.2% buyback yield and I mean that's that buyback yield is like something that's unheard of in trfi like apple and Microsoft none of these companies have anywhere near that kind of buyback amount so I mean that's I think that's a great value accutive mechanism for the token especially in that level and they still have enough um put aside to add usdc to their Treasury and grow their balance sheet and and because of this they have

such low emissions they don't need to incentivize and anybody I think their annual emission rate when I did it last month was less than 1% so I mean combined with those High revenues those low emission rates you know we we get get a pretty attractive valuation and and you besides price to fees price to sales there's also price to earnings which you can do with it now and I mean with radium because there's no other expenses you know like for trfi companies net income is typically the bottom of the line but it's not really necessarily what the cash flow is because there's other things like amortization depreciation maybe there's

stock expenses whatnot so like even from a cash flow bis this earnings that radium has is actually just pure cash flow and so I think when I did it last month they had low single digit PE ratio which is attractive but then even when you do it when you look at it from a price to cast FL Rao ratio it's even more attractive and if you put it in line with some of its other pairs in the industry from a price earnings ratio I think it it had like a or 270% upside potential if it was just a to trade in line with some of its paers which I don't know why it's not um but maybe you know these I think the markets take longer to pricing fundamentals than they

do hype in this industry so I think maybe as maybe as the financials of radium become a little bit more known as a part to just their volumes I think the market might start to realize like there is a growth and value play here yeah I love it I I think maybe the one other point and I think we'll talk about it um a little bit later when we get into details around the conferences is um like you're saying it does seem like maybe radium goes under the radar a little bit you know Jupiter kind of stands out as like the dominant Hub um of activity really on salana um even though you know the trades get routed to places like radium for example the trade

you know memes Etc um so like you're saying you know it could just be people aren't really looking under the hood Maybe quite yet um they haven't seen those relationships and um and maybe just jup is kind of doing a good job at continuing to keep people's eyes on them hey guys permissionless the event for crypto natives is heading west to Salt Lake City and we're bringing the biggest names in crypto together for an incredible can't miss event join me in the rest of block works on October 9th to hear for more than 200 Industry Titans including Nick white from Celestia shiron from igir and keone from Mona the conversations at permission list will be covering the hottest themes in crypto including modularity reaking the Bitcoin and Solon ecosystems Ai and

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Lake City team up with fellow devs and build the multi-chain future in other news the kind of more the other exciting stuff um in recent weeks has been conferences um I know Mark you were over there in Singapore we had um token 249 and also Salon breakpoint I guess let's let's jump into token um and talk a little bit around what happened there um or maybe some exciting things that that happened there um ethereum versus soul I think has been a big topic um just generally within you know the crypto space but um I'm curious like how mention that was how mentioned it was or how how much you know maybe um a token that was focused on or what people were saying about kind of that relationship

between the two yeah I mean token token was the biggest crypto conference or event I've ever been to I think it was something like 20,000 people and like 600 side events and like I couldn't keep up with all of it I had to pick which ones to focus my attention on or go to which talks it kind of felt like picking coins out of the tens of thousands that they are in a very fragmented market and everybody's trying to shill you their own and so it was kind of um simple IC of that but yeah the eth versus Soul debate was very hot I think you know it was probably the plurality of the discussions I had with with investors and and I'm not exaggerating when I say

nobody chose eth over soul and you know I tried to steal man the argument sometimes and you know poke some Pooles in it you know just to get some kind of interesting interesting debate but you know Soul was the clear winner for the entire for the entire confence everybody was building on Soul or or you know in some case l2s and in many cases l2s especially especially the social apps on base um but you know for the most part no I didn't meet a single Builder on Main net ethereum right which I guess is their plan but it still LED towards this bearish sentiment and in my opinion probably overly bearish sentiment you know I like to see this level of

bearishness um when when the prices are still holding fine so yeah I mean from that perspective Soul was a clear winner in the 2049 TW talk 2049 conference yeah I think great points there I mean we've we've talked a lot on this podcast about eth versus Soul l2s versus you know monolithic chain designs um we don't have to get into that debate today um I'm curious though you know it's not surprising that teams are not building on eth Main net I think you know like you're saying that's sort of the plan right push activity to l2s um maybe sort of subsidize the growth of of you know the ethereum kind of platform in that direction um with you know basically the the super low

cost nearly free cost of of blobs um today versus you know having everything or mostly everything there are a few L2 teams in the salana space at this point but um having everything kind of running on soul and and AC crewing fees in that way um I'm curious you know you mentioned teams building there is there anything around like institutional um focus or sentiment like you know if teams are not building on Main net and they're you know all these projects are wanting to build in salana or on l2s um are investors thinking the same way like they need to be looking at the so ecosystem versus you know eth or the L2 ecosystems yeah for sure I mean I think in terms of where projects are

building it seem to be a common Trend so I'm just going to say with the l2s so social apps base was the play for deepen apps Solana was the play and I'm and I'm and I'm talking to them and I'm asking them why what was the logic and you know it wasn't too much of a deep analysis into the tech and this kind of stuff and this is not what I would expect of entrepreneurs in the space right you shouldn't have to do a you know detailed analysis of AWS if you're deciding to La launch your infrastructure there and I think it was just more precedence like farcast FR Tech they launched on base other projects other social projects have seen that they think okay this is the best

place to launch when I think when helium moved from its own L1 to Solana that was a that was seemingly a good signal it was it worked better for them and I talked to these other deepend projects and they want to build on salana because they see other deepend projects to building there um but I think one of the one of the big themes maybe it wasn't super pronounced but it was the institutions moving to Solana so I mean we had announcements from you know circle uscc is already there they're expected to expand Visa um is announced that they're planning to expand PayPal P USD is already there Hamilton Lane they and Frankle Templeton were talking about

launching mutual funds on Solano which you know which was one of the things that got me most excited you know I was there clapping like yes Mutual fans on salano but I guess that's a little bit Boomer of me um you know coinbase is trying to bring cbtc directly to salano um and I think a lot of the institutions are seeing the speed how cheap it is and I think you know there was a second room they call it the right curve stage where they had a little bit more workshops and were giving advice to teams of how to go to market a little bit better and I haven't I hadn't you don't really see that as some of the other like maybe ethereum conferences a little bit more research focused as opposed to go to market focused and I think that's why we

saw a little bit more apps on salana a little bit more direct to Consumer stuff I mean and the institutions I call out were mostly Finance related but there was things like travala um announced that they on salana that's a booking a booking agency so you can book flights PID directly in stable coin or sold directly on Salon even Philippines stable coins you know something I think might be might actually be useful for remittances seeing as they're one of the largest um remittances um countries in the world they're launching their stable coin on salana for many of the same reasons all of these other institutions are doing it you know we have Kane Warwick with infinex coming you know put putting it in Solana I know it's chain

agnostic but it's Solana you know right now um Power Ledger which I don't know if you remember was like an old deep in energy um play back in 2017 you know they I they were on ethereum and they announced their move to sanao but what what I did think was interesting was that you know the reactions from the audience for these OG defi eth plays moving to salana weren't as enthusiastic as just the native Solana um companies announcing their new products right so I mean there was a lot more Applause for Camino announcing spot leverage than

there was for when run came on stage and said sky is coming to salana you know um but yeah I think those those are the large takeaways but I mean just bringing it up I wanted to get Luke's thoughts on this I I thought of you instantly when when it was announced like okay so lending is bringing spot leverage like it's trying to be a little bit more vertically integrated yeah so love to get your thoughts yeah I think ultimately seeing like as you mention these um ogdy protocols or Athena um even just these evm based killer apps moving their tokens to the salana ecosystem um Athena is using a layer zero route maker Dow or sky is now

planning on using a wormhole route It ultimately shows that like these projects that have uh billions in value for their core tokens one want to see their tokens proliferate on on Solana as opposed to just the evm side um so ultimately like salana gets uh more non-native assets um more assets that that carry yield um the the sky ecosystem tokens will be coupled with an incentive program in the form of Sky token emissions uh to various defi projects that integrate

and we saw incredible success with pi USD um and their incentive program on communo in particular and I can't help but think uh a similar incentive program for uh sky and uh susd would would see similar success um Camino in particular I'm I'm quite bullish on uh we've seen them basically hold multiples of multiples in deposits of their next two closest competitors combined um we see them bring Camino V2 onto the road map which will introduce uh Market lending

layer uh Vault layer for isolated lending um orderbook lending to find a counterparty at a set rate um spot leverage as Mark mentioned so basically like seeing Camino hold this incumbent status but also like such enormous separation from its closest competitors um I think sits on a tremendous number of assets uh to expand the product Beyond just lend borrow um as we're seeing with spot leverage so this could include something like a protocol specific LST um a protocol native stable coin uh on all their assets they could

go a uh a sky or AO approach to their stable coin design then also using their um LST multiply product they could offer um a delta neutral stable coin kind of similar to um Athena's stable coin so ultimately like we continue to see communo separate itself from the pack but also continue to ship new products um with more non nonnative ecosystem tokens coming on to the market um particularly optimistic that's interesting um on on the you know you said maker coming across using Wormhole trying to offer incentives it it kind of almost feels

like good timing now I remember you talked about there was good incentives with P USD on even on Cino I think um and it was 14% APR you were getting something like you know low double digit yield I noticed that the yields have come down down by half like to maybe around like 7 8% still not bad but then I also noticed simultaneously Pi usd's market cap on Solana has dropped drastically I think in the last month they've gone from 1 billion market cap to 700 million uh it's I don't know if it's I think it might have to do with the incentives it might have to do with maybe PayPal pulling some of the incentives it might

have to do with them like announcing this this new feature for merchants to buy sell and hold crypto and be able to send it to external wallets and maybe they want to add some incentives to there so I mean yeah maybe there is some some opportunity for some of these um e defi projects to come across and capture some some some market share with those yields but I also didn't realize that kamino was expanding into so many different let's just call it verticals do you think it puts it a little bit more more in competition with Jupiter now because they seem to be doing the same they kind of want to be a One-Stop shop you know they have spots they have perss soon

with limited or like with limit orders DCA capabilities bridging they they announced a launch PR a. proo you know they want to launch they announce a mobile app that they're going to that they're going to move to as well they bought Solana FM and coin Hall they're integrating Google pay Apple pay and credit card payments with like rebates like it seems like they're trying to also quickly expand into the different verticals and now that you've mentioned it it kind of seems like Camino is trying to do the same thing so I'm kind of like wondering if there's a head-to-head there potentially in the future yeah I think they'll bump into each other eventually but at this point the two daps kind of have somewhat

distinct niches um if we think of like Camino's original core product offering if was basic lend borrow um then you also had their liquidity product which was uh automated um concentrated liquidity management positions uh where you could deploy your position to a number of different indexes Orca radium metora and the protocol would Implement a um concentrated liquidity management strategy and readjust your positions accordingly so effectively became a tool for users to deploy I guess a bit more of a a yield optimized strategy for

lping across dexes and they've had spot margin um trading previously for long and short um generally it was only up to 5x leverage U margined by usdc on a select few assets so ultimately I think this uh um this coming upgrade expands that that market substantially more and then they've also had their uh multiply product which is um a looping strategy for LST yield using flash loans originated um through uh the Lend borrow market so what you do is you'd uh Supply

your LST uh collect the LST yield and uh The Lending Market yield you'd borrow so against that and then Loop that strategy up to 5x um and ultimately uh it would offer substantially more attractive yield for LST holders um sometimes 12 to 20% um depending on the LST with pretty minimal risk of liquidations as um Camino uses their their Oracle logic to basically hard code to query the underlying state pool's balance of Soul um as opposed to using like a market um or or Dex pool Oracle where a dpeg or

Price impact could result in liquidation so like ultimately between Camino and Jupiter I see I see their products being differentiated enough that they can kind of compete in um in different verticals um but ultimately like lenb has has demonstrated to be like one of the the killer apps in evm in terms of like the accumulation of uh absolute value of deposits and I think what Camino can do with with those deposits in their protocol kind of gives it an advantage for subsequent product uh

upgrades whether that's um things like the liquidity product um or spot leverage as well so I like the level of depth um on covering both of these and I think in the back of my mind what I'm thinking the whole time Haring back to Mark's comment about you know seeing the application Focus um like at breakpoint specifically you know I know that it at previous conferences or in over the past maybe year or so um that's kind of been a bit of like a a negative point maybe for E related conferences right too much infra no app talk um I don't know if you know the salana kind of ecosystem and Foundation Etc like if they've just found that right mix because it does

feel like you know when when I think about specific examples of like INF for development it's like you've got things like dialect building blanks to make you know to put experiences directly within socials or or web pages um bring crypto like use cases to the users where they are um other things like you know fired dancer where the focuses like you know improving TPS you know maybe improving latency Etc making the network better for users to kind of interact or you know enable you know greater trading venues Etc you know Mass user adoption of of social applications Etc um and then the rest of the time is spent talking about you know what all these apps are doing to improve themselves for users um I think that's just a really

interesting like maybe difference in um in in feeling or sentiment that we're seeing um where previous conferences have been like oh man it was like 50 infra projects and like I don't know just build an app man it would be sweet and and then you go to breakpoint and it's like you know we're talking about salana Seeker we're talking about some play salana gaming device potentially coming um you know like you just mentioned Mark you know Jupiter trying to become like this one stop kind of hub for for users interacting on salana um all of the kind of interesting offerings that Camino can build out um and kind of grow as this barland platform um I think that's just like a really interesting takeaway um when considering kind of

these two like sort of Giants at at this point in time and and where the focus is at yeah as you mentioned that you know the Solana Saga like I was surprised in salana breakpoints by how much of a focus it was on gaming not necessarily in the talks but in the booths there was a whole section just for gaming and people were playing games where they have the monitors they have the external monitors on the outside so you can see these enthusiasts play these games live and and take take a look at the AAA gaming action obviously St Atlas was a very big one it um they had they I think they had a whole floor downstairs just for Star Atlas um that was very popular

there were like probably dozens of gaming projects um in in that in that booths in the salana conference um I don't know if you have any I don't know have you all ever played any you have crypto games how big you all into that I mean I'm I'm not I think they're all pretty bad but please please tell me I'm wrong I defin I've explored them um I think there's um it's difficult because I don't know that the industry has really like figured out the right implementation in particular yet like I think there are maybe some specific examples or ideas that that could work well um like I think if you think about traditional MMO games like you know in-game economies that are powered by

like real currencies like that's that's really interesting because I think a lot of the people that play those games they treat the in-game currency like real currency when they're playing like they really are trying to like game the markets and like you know be sort of like you know the top Clan or like top user um in the server and like to put real value behind that is really interesting like Eve online is kind of an interesting example of that um that's kind of existed for a while where people are investing like real dollars into like these these crazy fights um so there's there's things like that but I also think that um you know there's um the magic block team um on salana that that has this you know interesting means of using like essentially a rollup to enable like much faster um higher

throughput activity to where you could theoretically be doing all these actions like on chain um in a way that doesn't like strain the network itself um thanks to the to the kind of rollup design that they're that they're going with um but you know I think we'll need to see more experimentation it's it's not really clear whether like the benefits of just having all these actions kind of be recorded on and transactions are um going to be like super meaningful for the user unless we find ways kind of to make it so um so at this point a lot of the games are they're the very early stage like it's it hearkens back to like 2014 like mobile you know mobile apps on on iPhone Etc um they're very simple designs usually because I mean building

games is is difficult you can't just like spit out a triaa game in a year takes a ton of money it takes like a lot of years um a lot of developer resources and time to like make something that looks and feels nice so um with all the raises that have happened over the past year few years like it's not surprising that there aren't like games coming out you know one after the other because they they just need more time to get themselves out there I mean I think the star Atlas example is an interesting one because I think you know they've sort of been like an in development project for um several several years at this point yeah as a as a previous RuneScape player I can definitely attest to in-game money is real money you know I sold my account pair to pair for real cash um but yeah I

think I am a little bit more I can see the vision more with idle games and and maybe for those who don't know idle games is basically where you hop on your phone you do one transaction it it you know you do one thing and you come back and check it in eight hours like you say I'm going to build a cabin and eight hours later you build a cabin you get some rewards I kind of see that as a little bit more a little bit an easier stepping Ladder into this into this web 3 gaming you don't have to commit too much time to it you don't need that much speed you can get rewarded in tokens for doing things that you might have been doing anyway on a regular Idol game which I used to play but I got a little bit addicted so I had to remove them off

of my phone too much hours spent on that um but yeah that that um the rollups thing that you were talking about that's the ephemeral rollups that like can spin up and disappear okay yeah I've heard about that I need to dive deeper yeah I I do like your point on um kind of the idol game design I think you know like telegram mini apps I think we've seen like a little bit of tapping into something there like there's this ability to you know I think if you think about those games as like mobile apps like you you know micro microtransactions micro payments and like doing like quick things to speed up you know the time to finish buildings and stuff like that I think that's been a pretty successful business model I think if you think of like Clash of

Clans like those have been pretty successful um blockchains kind of bringing interesting um mechanism to that where you can have microtransactions that are like you know a few pennies or like a penny to send a transaction on soul for example or on ton um I've seen game like some games like cazin and some of these others that are on telegram Implement that kind of design where it's basically an idle app but you have opportunities to like basically do like a you know low fee couple Cent transaction to like get a quick reward for a few hours um I do think that's interesting I think it Taps into something like you're saying um and the people the kind of feeling around those types of games um but yeah the ephemeral rollup design is is an

interesting one um I'm curious to see where it goes we're hopefully we'll see some um you know maybe some early games or prototypes um launch with that design and and get to see like you know the interesting things that that having kind of the all of the you know maybe movement or you know individual like user player data um being kind of shot through a like this this ephemeral Ro validator um and then you know the state being stored on chain that there could be some interesting designs that come out of it um I guess I I think we've kind of touched on all of the major highlights I guess from uh the conferences anything else uh any other points that you guys want to get out before before I shill our our next

upcoming conference I guess the only last thing is the the the fire dancer announcement um like day one they were like we are live on test net and everybody was very happy with that and then day two they were like well actually we've been live on Main net too for the past couple months with very select teams and I thought that was pretty awesome too and I just wanted to bring it up because I I do think that you know like Solana started from a different path to ethereum and you know they didn't have the multi client approach but like now they're finally getting there and this might finally eliminate one of the biggest criticisms with the salana blockchain which is liveness and toally did did say

that he will remove the beta label from Solana if when fire dancer reaches a third of the network so you know finally you know no beta potentially less um liveness issues like I I'm looking forward to that I'm looking forward to the multic client architecture of salana and then like maybe a you know converging design something closer to ethereum and what they've done you know lucky that they've been around to kind of set the lead on that but yeah yeah I think everyone is excited to see what that looks like when fired answerer finally comes to main net um you know the million TPS tests I don't know that we'll see those numbers um those are kind of Ideal situations right but um

we've got other other new chains coming up there's you know there's the monets there's the mega eths they're touting big throughput numbers 10,000 TPS Etc um and obviously Aptos andu like they're pushing those boundaries as as well so um it's clear that you know salana this is something that that they need to get out to kind of continue that that upward momentum um in terms of like network throughput network stability liveness um kind of all of the above um and I'm sure that eth and salana talks I think will probably be big Point um and part of permission lists permission list three that's coming up um October 9th through October 11th um get your tickets um we do have a special code for you guys um that that tune in um ox10 um so please

there are you know get yourself out there um join in on the the eth soul debate if if you feel like it um I think we should have there should be some exciting you know pickle ball tournament going on um a Fight Night event going on so um plenty of entertainment to kind of mix in with the uh maybe heated debates or um interesting uh you know discussions and and talks um anything else you guys want to highlight or anything specific um um coming up in permission list that you may want to call out yeah come for the uh mountains fresh air and great food and stay for the best conference in crypto heck yeah awesome well thanks guys for coming on today and uh

appreciate you everyone for listening in see y'all [Music]